Kim and David Camm - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I'm doing pretty good? How are you? I'm great? And I hope all our listeners are great too. I hope so too. This morning I watched a video on how to be a better podcaster. Oh wow, watch out, everyone up in our game.

0:42 I'm trying. It doesn't have come as naturally to me as it does to you. Well, I think you're pretty good at it. Well, thank you. Happy sweetest day. Today, sweetest day? Yeah, oh, happy sweetest day. To look a panic on your face. You weren't. I'm just kidding. We don't really observe that day. I had no idea. It did make you a snack. Because I love you. I went in a little bit of a different direction today. Okay, here you go. Okay, what do we have here? The bowl of you made me a nice little salad. I made you the viral Chiktok cucumber salad. Oh man, this is I'm really excited about it.

1:23 I made you I cut up a little I knew you would maybe leave out of anger, so I gave you a little bit of bread too. Okay, excellent will I made. This last week for myself for lunch. Did you have any of it? Then? No? I did not. Okay, I think it's really delicious. Okay, Well, thank you. The video I watched this morning did not recommend eating cucumbers before you podcast. Yeah. The recipe is cucumbers, scallions, garlic, sayt sauce, fish sauce, sesame oil, a pinch of sugar MS, and a sprinkle of sesame seeds. I didn't use MSG, but I added some tomatoes and avocado and some rice wine vinegar. The recipe is really forgiving. It's not forgiving, but it's like whatever you want to put in you throw in there. Yeah, and I also added a pinch of red pepper flakes.

2:18 What did you think? Well, definitely was a different direction. It was pretty good. I mean, for like a little salad type of thing. I didn't love the Maybe it's the rice vinegar or something gave it kind of a sour flavor, which I didn't love. You don't love pickled things and I do, so I really like it. I would give it a ten out of ten. I'd give it a six out of ten. Oh, okay, well let's put on an average. Yeah, if you stick around for part two, I might have made something like it's probably like a dream snack of yours, oh dream dessert. Yeah, you'll be really excited. To start around. Well, let's get on with it. Then. Today we are going to tell you the story of Kim and David Cam. And this one is a doozy.

3:02 It was recommended to us by our patron and listener, Melissa. Thank you so much, Melissa. I really enjoyed researching this case. Today's episode does contain themes of a violence against women and children and sexual assault, so please listen with care. Like many of you listening, the Cams were in the throes of parenting young children while working full time, juggling home work and family obligations. Wednesday, September twenty seventh, two thousand, was another busy day as usual for the act of Cam family. David Camp, thirty six, recently retired after a ten year career, is an Indiana State trooper. That day, he had lunch with his brother and several of his old Trooper friends and bragged about how well everything in his life was going with his family and his new job working for his uncle's company. David returned to work for the afternoon while Kim picked up the kids. After school, they went to church for a special children's Bible night.

3:58 The church was the center of the camp's social life. After eating dinner at church, they returned home to watch Olympic gymnastics and swimming. The Olympics were held in Sydney that year. The US women won bronze in the all around. The next morning, the cam family overslapped. After their late night Olympic watching. David ran out to get Hostess cupcakes for breakfast, while Kim dressed the children and got their bags ready for their after school activities. I know what you're saying. Hostess cupcakes is a weird thing to run out and grab that. Ba I was thinking the book that I read, That's what the author stated. Janis Ran, the children's grandmother, was picking them up after school. David kissed Kim and the kids goodbye before leaving at seven ten am. As he walked out the door, he reminded Kim that it was his basketball night and was the last time he would see his wife and children alive.

4:43 Kim dropped the kids off at school and then went to her mom's house to give her the after school bags. Janis gave Kim a piece of coffee cake for breakfast, and she was off to work. When David got to work, he made about thirty calls to potential customers and visited a crew on a job site to survey their progress. Kim left work at four to watch Jill's dance class. Meanwhile, Janis took Brad to the doctor for his weekly asthma shot, and then back to her house for a quick snack of ice cream and oreos before his swim practice. She sounds like a good grandma. Kim showed up with Jill shortly after and changed out of her work clothes into a sweater and jeans. At about five forty five, Kim and the kids left for Hazelwood Junior High School for Brad's swim practice. Janie fondly remembers her grandchildren smiling, pulling pea signs and saying peace Grandma as they drove off. Meanwhile, David left work at about five pm. He made a few phone calls from his car and then stopped at home to change clothes before his basketball game. He had a quick chat with his uncle Nelson in the driveway, who was staying across the road with his Grandpa Amos.

5:46 That night, the family took turns spending time with a ninety two year old patriarch. His beloved wife of seventy years, Daisy, had died a year earlier. David felt the familiar throb of a migraine creeping behind his eyes. He injected himself with immatrus and laid down for twenty minutes and waited for the pain to subside. After he arose at six twenty, David made another quick work call to confirm an appointment for the next day. Ten minutes later, the Schwans guy pulled up. David told him he only had a few minutes before he had to leave for a basketball game. He bought ham and cheese omelets and jalapeno poppers. By six forty five, the Schwan's man was on his way. David stowed the food in the freezer, then at six point fifty he headed towards Georgetown Community Church, just three miles away, in his new company truck. The church had been built by David's grandfather, Amos Lockhart decades earlier. The Cams went to church there every Sunday and were very involved.

6:41 Kim served as treasurer. Recently, David had helped build the Family Life Center, complete with a full gym and basketball court. David was one of the first players to arrive at the church a few minutes before seven. At least six of the players were relatives or worked with David. The alarm was deactivated at six five twenty nine p m, including David. Twelve men showed up. The men played five on five. The games lasted about twenty minutes until one team scored twenty points. One man sat out each game. David set out the second game, which was about seven thirty. He stretched on the sidelines, drank a sports drink, chatted with an old family friend who showed up chom jolly, and then ran a couple of laps. At nine PM, two people left and the remaining men played a last game of four on four. At nine twenty two PM, the gym was locked and the alarm was set. Later, all eleven men confirmed that David never left the gym.

7:38 At nine twenty seven, David returned home to find Kim's garage door opened, which surprised him. As he pulled into the attached garage, he saw a gruesome scene. Kim was slumped on the floor of the garage next to her black two door Ford Bronco, hanseless with a fatal gunshot wound to her head. David knew what death looked like. He knew that Kim was gone. Brad and Jill were in the back of the Bronco, also shot. Jill was strapped into her car seat, her body pressed against the door. Brad was draped over the back seat. He'd unbuckled from his car seat and attempted to climb into the back to escape the attacker. Jill was cold to the touch, but David thought that Brad was still warm. Leaning over Jill, he pulled Brad from the car, laid him on the ground, and attempted CPR. As he blew breaths and to Brad, he could feel the air escaping his neck wound. A trail of dark blood oozed across the garage floor and onto the driveway. A clear liquid also trickled down the driveway alongside the blood. David ran inside the house and frantically called the Indiana State Police at the Sellarsburg Post forty five, where David had previously worked. Can say, please say.

8:46 You Chris, Can I help you? So you came. Let me talk the post man right now. Okay, he's going out of the line. Now let me on um only. Day. Get everybody out here to my house now, okay, all right, all right, but my kids are dead. Get everybody out here at my house. Go to Okay, David, we're gonna we got people on the way. Okay, get everybody out here where everything's gonna be okay, all right, we're gonna get every. Everythink's not okay. Get everybody out here. They're coming. Go to Dave Can's house.

9:26 Now, Okay. Do you know what happened? David? Then I just don't. Oh my god, we're looking, David. They're on their way right now. Okay, I got everybody. Coming, but I'm gonna let you talk to the tree. So I get people come on the street. I gotta get the hill. Okay, David, do you need an ambulance to my parents? You need an ambulance. Get everybody out. I'm a go, Dave. How that's intense? David later said he didn't call nine one one because he thought the troopers would do a better job. Quote, I wanted my people there. If I'd wanted a screwed up investigation done, I'd have called the Sheriff's department instead of the state Although the Sellersburg State Police Post was several minutes further away than the New Albany Police department where the Cams lived. That was the most emotional nine to one one call I think I've ever heard. What do you think of?

10:30 Yeah, super intense, and you know, I don't who knows how you would react in that situation, but I think that's how I would retain me. That sounds like a very authentic reaction. He was. He is a very emotional person, but I don't think anyone can fault him for that. It seemed very authentic to me. Yeah, it did to me too. David Ray Cam was born to parents Delfa, Susie and Don on March twenty third, nineteen sixty four. Susie and Don met while he was on leave from the Air Force, where he served as a light engineer in Korea during the war. After he completed his service, he returned to New Albany, Indiana population thirty five thousand, and married Delpha Susie Lockhart on February ninth, nineteen fifty six.

11:13 She usually just went by Susie. I would imagine I would too if my name was Delfa. It's a very unusual name. It's kind of cool. Soon after they married, they welcomed Donnie Junior, Julie and David, followed by Daniel. Don worked as a mechanic and Susie as a homemaker, but after their fourth child was born, Susie decided to get a job. She worked at a furniture store as a salesperson. David grew up surrounded by his big family on both sides. The Lockharts have especially deep roots in Indiana. David's grandfather, Amos, and his wife Daisy, had nine children. They were pillars of the community and founded several churches. Each Sunday, after church, they gathered together for a big family meal with the whole family. The children loved playing with all of their cousins. Amos bought a large parcel of land in Georgetown, Indiana, about ten miles north of New Albany, and constructed a road through it.

12:08 He called it Lockhart Road for his family. Georgetown, Indiana, has a population of about thirty eight hundred and is about ten miles northwest of Louisville, Kentucky, one hundred and twenty miles south of Indianapolis, and nine miles west of New Albany. I'm sorry that was a lot of geography there. It's okay. It's good to get a picture of where where things are at. Amos sold plots of land to family members to build their homes. Not only were they family, but they were neighbors too. David and his siblings had a good childhood, hunting, fishing, swimming, and hiking, always surrounded by family and church events to keep them busy. David suffered a severe injury to his kidneys just before starting school that resulted in a severe case of nephritis, inflammation of the kidney which might make it more difficult for the body to filter blood. He spent four weeks in the hospital and missed the first semunt of first grade.

13:02 Once he recovered, David was behind his classmates and struggled to catch up to them academically, but he was a natural athlete. He also liked to build things and tinker. When he got older, he would take car engines apart and rebuild them. When David was eight, he told his mother he wanted to be a preacher, but as he grew older, he changed his mind, as children usually do, and decided that he wanted to become a police officer like his uncle Nelson. From a young age, David suffered from migraines that would plague him for the rest of his life. Susie took him to the doctor who gave him medicine, but nothing made the headaches better. David was quiet but made friends easily. Though David was an average student, he was a star athlete, especially at baseball, but he didn't like the attention that it brought him. When he was fifteen, David was fixated on buying a jeep. He worked at a restaurant and saved up enough money to buy a rundown jeep and worked hard to restore it.

13:59 He graduated from New Albany High School in nineteen eighty two, then got work at body shops. He began casually seeing a young woman named Tamara. When she became pregnant, their parents got involved and strongly suggested they should get married. On November thirteenth, nineteen eighty two, David and Tammy, both eighteen, were married. She was four months pregnant. Tammy moved into the Camhouse with David and his parents when she began spotting and was put on bed rest. She became depressed and withdrawn. On February ninth, nineteen eighty three, Tammy went into pre term labor. She was only thirty weeks long, but Whitney Lane Cam was born healthy and adored by all.

14:42 David decided he needed a better, steadier job and joined the new Albany Police Department as a volunteer auxiliary policeman. Because the local police departments weren't hiring, David decided to apply to be an Indiana State trooper. He began taking courses in police administration part time at Indiana University. Three years into their marriage, in April nineteen eighty six, Tammy and David decided to divorce. She was still in love with an old boyfriend who was in the military stationed in Germany, and David had had several flings with multiple women during the marriage. Kimberly star Wren was born on March fourteenth, nineteen sixty four, to Janis and Frank.

15:23 Which was just nine days before David was born. Ah, that was what the book that I read said. But I think the book was wrong. Oh really, I think she was actually born in nineteen sixty five, a year after David. Okay. Janis and Frank both graduated in nineteen sixty one from New Albany High School, where they were high school sweethearts. Kim was born at the same New Albany hospital as her future husband, Debbie, was born two years later. The sisters were very close. Debbie always looked up to Kim, who made everything look so easy. Kim was shy, smart, and a hard worker. In high school, she was a popular cheerleader on the Palm Squad, a member of the square Dancing club, and on the student council square Dancing Club.

16:09 I don't think we had a square dancing club. He did not either. Janis said that as her oldest daughter entered puberty, she became more withdrawn. She often felt that Kim was dealing with something, but she kept it bottled up. Kim graduated with honors in nineteen eighty three. She majored in accounting and finished her degree in three years at Indiana University. She quickly got a job working as an accountant for Agon Insurance in Louisville. In nineteen eighty eight, Kim was set up on a blind date by a friend. It was love at first site for Kim twenty two in David twenty three. Despite living in the same town, attending the same high school, and the same college, they had never met before. Kim instantly loved David's daughter, Whitney, who was now five. Kim and David, both introverted and reserved, blossomed as a couple. Kim, a lifelong Protestant, agreed to convert to Catholicism for David.

17:02 The Wrens liked David, but they weren't happy about her conversion to a new religion, but still embraced the couple. David and Kim were married on May thirteenth, nineteen eighty nine. David's uncle performed the ceremony. After a quick honeymoon to Florida, with Kim's support and encouragement, David took the rigorous Indiana State Trooper Exam. There are five parts to the test, a written test, an oral interview, a polygraph, a psychological evaluation, and a fitness test, as well as a background check. I wonder what they ask in the polygraph. It's probably pretty basic, but that's a that's a pretty rigorous that is very vigorous. The results weren't mailed out for five months, but David passed and was sworn in in December nineteen eighty nine and began three months of rigorous training. David began his police career at Sellersburg, Indiana Post forty five, which employed about sixty people. David had struggled with his self esteem and confidence all his life, but his chest swelled with pride with his new job.

18:06 And you know what they say about a man in uniform. Ladies began noticing the young state trooper. His positive attitude and work ethic got the attention of his superiors. His sister, Julie said, quote, he discovered that he had some real gifts and talents, and he was getting a lot of accolades. He got pretty pompous. He went through a period where he got pretty confident and really was loving who he was. Chief Randy Hubbard, David's mentor, said, quote, he knew he was good. He was very cocky. So we're painting a picture right this, you know, pretty good looking young guy, all of a sudden, you know his state trooper and everyone's noticing him.

18:47 I can. During his second year as a state trooper, he was selected for the Emergency Response Team, which is the Indiana State Troopers Special Weapons and Taxes Tactics Team or SWAT Team. He loved the high pressure, high reward position. David was a designated firearm expert and sharpshooter. David was a designated firearm expert and sharpshooter. He got nearly a perfect score on the Indiana State Police shooting test. He was especially talented with the MP five or machine pistol five. David was a part of the SPAT team for six years. He continued to suffer from debilitating migraines that he'd had since childhood. David knock him off his feet for a few days at a time and then not happened again for months. His doctor gave him a prescription for imatrex, but the drug affected his work performance, making him nauseous, dizzy, weak, and stiff. So we often chose to suffer through the pain.

19:43 I can't imagine having migraines that bad. I mean, just you go on maybe like once a year, yeah, but not not like days at a time. I mean that would really be debilitating. David worked long, erratic hours, and Kim also had a demanding schedule working as an accountant. There was little time for the young couple, and soon David gave a into temptation. Apparently, the troopers were besieged by women who they called badge bunnies. And you can imagine what a badge bunny is. I can't, Okay, I've never heard that term. But yes, our friend Lisa, who is a listener, her husband was a police officer, and she confirmed that there are there are a lot of badge bunnies out there. Yes, if you are someone married to police officer, you have to prepare yourself.

20:23 I guess you would hate the badge bunnies. The trooper were known to take women to a special spot off the highway and have sex in the back of their cruisers. In nineteen ninety one, David was promoted again, this time to field training officer. He trained and supervised new recruits. This is when he met Shelley Romero, a twenty something pretty blonde. Their stories differ. They started as friends, but their relationship soon became physical. David claimed that their affair only lasted weeks, but Shelley said it lasted for two years. David wasn't only involved with Shelley, he had a whole lineup of women to choose from. Did Kim know about these affairs. I don't think she did at this point. No, he worked at erratic hours and I think he was discreet too.

21:09 Despite his affairs, he and Kim were eager to start a family. In the spring of nineteen ninety two, Kim discovered she was pregnant. Bradley Ray Cam was born on February first, nineteen ninety three. No one loved Brad more than his ten year old big sister, Whitney. They shared a close bond. Kim and David were fortunate to have two doting grandmothers who looked after Brad so she could continue working. Kim loved being a mother, but also loved her career. She had received several promotions and had a bright career ahead of her. Her salary was more than twice what David made as a trooper. In addition, she also received a generous yearly bonus. In the summer of nineteen ninety two, David met a personal trainer named Stephanie McCarty.

21:50 He was taken with her, but she had a living boyfriend and had no interest in starting an affair. But after she and her boyfriend broke up two years later, David was there to dry her tears. Soon they became a couple and spent several nights a week together. David wasn't afraid to take his new girlfriend out in public. They went to nice dinners, dancing at clubs, and spent weekends at NASCAR races. Stephanie believed that David was unhappy in his marriage and planned to divorce his wife, but soon Kim was pregnant again. One afternoon, David and Stephanie were in his house in the basement, making out on the couch like a couple of teenagers. When Kim surprised them by coming home early. They were able to sneak out of the house without getting caught. Poor Kim had no idea what her husband was doing behind her back.

22:34 Stephanie found out that Kim was pregnant again and told David they couldn't continue the affair, But when David and his brother went away for the weekend to Atlanta to a NASCAR event, he bought her a plane ticket and she joined them. What happened to being discreet all of a sudden, It seems like he is just out in the open with this affair. At times, David became very reckless. When Kim was six months pregnant and baby Brad was about twenty months old, she realized something was going on with her husband. She confronted him and he admitted that he was having an affair. He was blunt and apathetic with his wife of five years and told her that he was in love with another woman and wanted a divorce.

23:14 Kim was heartbroken. She and Brad went and stayed with her parents, but then she became angry and went back to her house and told David that he had to leave. When David asked his mother if he could stay with her for a while, she refused. This was a big deal because Susie cam babied David and he could do no wrong in her eyes, but his adulterous behavior crossed a line. He had an ugly temper tantrum after Susie told him no for the first time in his life. He threw chairs around the kitchen, put holes in the walls, and smashed furniture. Susy was so upset she called the police and requested that they go to his house and intervene before he destroyed his home. When the officers arrived, David played off his anger and said he was fine.

23:58 The house was in rough shape, but the office felt like he'd calm down enough, and no report was filed. Kim and David decided to divorce and sell their house. David rented a one bedroom apartment in New Albany, and soon after he had a new neighbor, Stephanie McCarty moved in next door. Kim also rented a one bedroom apartment for her Brad and the new baby. Kim was heartbroken. She never imagined herself as a single mother. It's really tough too, and she's still pregnant and expecting the baby to be going through all that, oh, definitely. David's family tried to convince him to patch things up with Kim, but he refused. He spent Christmas with Stephanie's family instead.

24:40 Susie and Don Cam stepped up in their son's absence most nights after work. Kim, who was far into her pregnancy, ate dinner with her in laws and then they would drive her back to her apartment and help bathe Brad and put him to bed. They seem like really good people they do. It's refreshing to see parents that aren't afraid to out their son's bad behavior exactly. On February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety five, Kim gave birth to a baby girl, Jillian Catherine cam Both sides of the family were there to support Kim, but David didn't show up to meet his new daughter. Stephanie became increasingly uncomfortable with the situation and began talking to her ex boyfriend. Because she and David were neighbors, he kept close tabs on her and knew when she wasn't home. It came to a boiling point one night when David confronted her. He put a gun to his chest and threatened to shoot himself. Stephanie calmed him down and then told him she no longer wanted to date him. She told him to go back to his wife and children. David called Kim the next day and asked her to meet him. He said he had a vision from God telling him to return to his family, so they didn't tell her that it was his girlfriend that told him to rest me maybe he had both.

25:55 He reassured his wife that he was dedicated to her and the children and wouldn't stray again. Kim agreed to reconcile. Amos Lockhart offered David a one and a half acre plot of land across the road from him to build a house on their family road. He and Kim built a tidy, three bedroom, two bathroom house with a detached garage and moved in six months later. David helped his grandparents out by mowing their lawn and fixing things around the house, while Kim, who was still working her job full time, took care of the kids, cooked, cleaned, and did the laundry. Kim never complained. She was grateful to have family nearby who watched Brad and Jill during the day. Kim and David were both doing well in their careers.

26:38 Kim was promoted to senior accountant and David had received a bronze star for valor when he attempted to save a drowning man attempted. Yeah, the man didn't make it. He pulled him out of the water and gave him CPR, but it was too late. Oh that's too bad, David was hoping to be promoted to detectives soon. David loved cars. On his thirty fourth birth that Kim bought him a nineteen sixty six Mustang with her annual bonus. Wow, that is a very nice gift. Yeah, still training new recruits. In late nineteen ninety six, David met another pretty young woman trooper named Lorie Rumph. One night, several of the troopers went out drinking and dancing. David tried to kiss Laurie. She quickly thwarted his advances and reminded him that he was married. Soon, David fell back into his old pattern of flirting with and propositioning women.

27:28 A former co worker said, quote, he'd just wink at you, or he'd rub my leg under the table in the squadroom, things like that quote. After she left the police station, he still followed her around town in his cruiser. That's pretty creepy. That's very creepy. Yeah. David met Michelle Voyle's at gas and stuff. He made a point of telling her that she was cute. He didn't remember at the time, but he'd pulled her over seven years earlier, when she was a high school student. He offered her a ride in his cruiser, which she excitedly accepted. They made small talk as they drove through town. She asked if he was married. No, he said, and wiggled his ringless finger at her. David called her three weeks later and asked her to meet him that night in a church parking lot at eleven pm.

28:14 He drove her to a rest area where they had sex on a blanket. They met frequently after that, a few times a week for the next six months. When someone gave Michelle a head's up that David was married, she broke things off. While seeing Michelle, David was also seeing a real estate agent named Lisa Corfage. He met her when he pulled her over for expired tags and ordered her out of the car to check her out fully We're assuming. He wrote her phone number down and let her go. Lisa was engaged to a firefighter. She began getting weird phone calls, sometimes collect Once the caller said, quote, I'll see you Monday. Another call said I have a surprise for you on Monday. You'll see my dick. When Lisa contacted the phone company, she was told the car untraceable.

29:01 She lived alone with her one year old baby, so the calls rattled her. Lisa's fiance told her to call the police. Within a few minutes, a state trooper arrived to take a report. Guess who showed up. I'm going to guess David. Lisa later said, quote, I was hysterical, crying and very nervous. He was very comforting and told me to calm down. Unquote. David offered to stay with her, but she declined the offer and wanted to spend the night with a friend. David told her to call him the next time she received a call. She did receive another call, She recorded it and called David to hand over the recording. He rushed over and met Lisa's fiance while he was there. The two men became friends, and David and Kim began socializing with Lisa and her fiance. Awkward. Because David was a police officer, it was easy for him to find out Lisa's fiance's schedule.

29:55 He was a fireman. Is that why David knew his schedule? Because they both worked for the Okay getcha? One night, when David knew that he was working, he went to Lisa's and asked if he could kiss her. She said yes. They had a brief fling, but Lisa ended it. The two couples remained friendly. Lisa married her firefighter, but David would still flirt with her and proposition her. She was firm that it would never happen again. But David never had a shortage of women in his lineup. He began to flirt with a dispatcher named beth Anne, who was going through a divorce. He showed up at her apartment one night and sat on the couch next to her. Beth Anne felt uncomfortable that he'd showed up without an invitation.

30:37 How did he even know where she lived? David touched her breasts and then pinned her down and kissed her aggressively. She found herself fighting him off, punching and kicking him. David abruptly left. Beth Anne was soon transferred to another department. On one of her last days working with David, he again cornered her and assaulted her by touching her breasts and kissing her. He said it was his goodbye kiss. You get the picture. There are way too many women to mention here, but David cam abused his power, took what he wanted, and didn't give the feelings of these women, his wife, his children, or even his mother or sister a second thought. He was an aggressive predator with an inflated ego. With the rise of the Internet, America, online and chat rooms, a whole new world was opened up for David.

31:23 Oh boy, the whole new world open up for a lot of people around that time. Yeah, oh, what do you think so far of David? I think he's pretty creepy. I mean, I don't know men who abuse their power in a position like that. It's just not not good. No, we'll be back after a break. Before we jump back into the case, I just wanted to mention we have had a lovely fall so far, but we're in that awkward stage of fall where it's forty degrees when you wake up and it's freezing. Yeah, and then by this time of you know, it gets hot. And you were wearing your Michigan sweatshirt right because it is Saturday is game day here when we're recording, and you took it off and underneath you had another you had multi layers of Michigan apparel.

32:14 Yes, of course, do you know what I have underneath the T shirt? Michigan. You've changed your chat Well, not that you painted it right. Game day. Yeah, I hope you shape just first. David cam once suggested that he wasn't the high caliber officer that others thought he was. He had received promotions and commendations and had the respect of his fellow officers, but he knew that he played fast and loose with the rules. His womanizing was unprofessional and reprehensible. His superiors were beginning to catch wind of his behavior. In nineteen ninety nine, in his tenth year as an Indiana State trooper, David was involved in a high speed chase with a nineteen year old man. When the driver eventually pulled over, the officers wrapped him out of the car, threw him to the ground, and brutally beat him. David's cruiser was equipped with a dashboard camera and caught it all on videotape.

33:09 The young man sued David and the other two officers. The local news station got a hold of the video and played it on a loop for days and weeks to follow. The video actually cleared David. He hadn't touched the kid, but the damage was done to his reputation and he was associated with the beating. The other two officers were suspended without pay. David felt that the Indiana State Police leadership hadn't defended him enough during the lawsuit. He harbored a grudge and developed a bad attitude at work. When he was reassigned to security detail for a riverboat casino as punishment for his part in the beating, David became even more frustrated. His assignments as a trooper became less rewarding and more routine. It might have been a performance issue, his constant affairs, or being involved in the beating of the young man, but David's shine had worn off with the Indiana's State Police, and he knew he wasn't likely to gain their favor anytime soon. There was no way he was going to be promoted to detective.

34:08 He'd recently interviewed for a detective position and lost out to a colleague with a college degree. When things weren't going well for him, his behavior grew reckless. After a night of heavy drinking, he had sex with a trooper friend's wife in the back seat of Kim's Ford Bronco while a fellow officer drove them around so the woman's husband wouldn't find out. Oh good Lord, that disgusting yeah. Meanwhile, Kim was busy holding their family together, working full time raising Brad and Jill, shuffling them from school to their activities, and volunteering at church. She stayed up hours after the children went to bed, cleaning, doing laundry, and ironing David's uniforms with the sharp creases he liked. Kim grew tired of the constant grind and told David she wanted to stop working and be a stay at home mom for a while. She was hoping to have one more child. David's uncle, Sam Lockhart, offered him a job as a part time salesperson at one of his growing companies, UDI United Dynamics Incorporated. Sam employed about forty people at his two businesses, UDI and Permadry Incorporated or PDI, which repaired foundations and did water proofing work. David helped his uncle develop a new gutter guard system that was boosting sales for UDI. He was a natural salesman and soon decided to leave the Indiana State Police to devote himself full time to UDI. He turned in his gun, badge and cruiser for a fresh start. He inquired about purchasing his service weapon, a thirty eight revolver, but decided not to because they didn't offer him a discount. I don't

35:41 think they had a gun in their home. When David left, he agreed to sign on as a reserve officer. David's new job affected his social life. You know what I mean, No badge bunnies for Udi. Well, he didn't have a badge anymore. David started hanging out at a strip club in his spare time. Around this time, David went to his doctor, who prescribed him viagra for a problem that David called temporary. David's uncle made him manager of the waterproofing division at UDI. He enjoyed his new job and regular schedule. UDI was doing so well that Uncle Sam gave David a company van and they drew up plans to build a new office.

36:23 He put David in charge of finding new land. Because David made his own schedule at UDI, he often took Fridays off to golf with friends. He was soon earning double his old salary. Whenever he saw his old trooper friends, he'd brag about how much money he made. Kim was happy because they were now on track for her to quit her job, and David was able to help more with the kids, they talked about having one more baby. On the nights he wasn't out, he'd bathe them and put them to bed. Some nights, while Kim was still up cleaning, she'd find Brad and Jill in bed with David, and she'd go sleep in one of their beds. In May two thousand, noticed that Jill's vaginal area looked red and tender. Kim had her mother Janie, look at it, and she said it looked like diaper rash. Jill was five at this time and long out of diapers. Weeks later, Jill began crying at Dan's class, holding her crotch, saying it hurt. For the next several months, Jill would complain about her vaginal area being sore.

37:19 That seems concerning. Did they take her to the doctor? I really don't know. I did a lot of research on this case. The book that I read is where I got that information from. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else. Okay. In the spring and summer of two thousand, Kim seemed more tired than usual. Janis said that she could tell that something was weighing heavily on her daughter, but she didn't confide in her, she began having migraines and stomach problems. Remember back in the beginning we were talking about when Kim was in her teenage years, she was often reticented and didn't tell her mom what. Was bud at her right. Marcy McLoyd, Kim's best friend, who lived in Florida, said that Kim was depressed. She'd never heard her sound so sad.

38:00 After much prodding by Marcy about what was bothering her, Kim said, history is repeating itself. I'm assuming that means something about David having affairs again. Well, we don't know because she didn't elaborate with Marcy on it. She told Marcy, we'll talk about it when I come visit, okay. Kim had promised to come to Florida with Brad and Jil for months, but kept pushing it off. Finally, in September, Kim told Marcy that she would take the kids out of school soon and come for a visit. David's life insurance policy with UDI wasn't as good as his previous policy as a state trooper. Daniel cam David's younger brother, advised him and Kim to increase their coverage. The new policy covered Kim for one hundred fifty thousand dollars, plus ten thousand dollars for each child and three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for David and the months to come. This would be greatly scrutinized, but Kim handled the financial matters for the family and David wasn't even aware of the changes.

38:56 On September twenty eighth, two thousand, at about nine thirty p all available units were ordered to the Cam's house on Lockhart Road. David ran across the road to get his uncle Nelson, who was staying with David's frail ninety two year old grandfather Amos that night. Nelson was also a retired state trooper. David tore open the back door and yelled, quote, Nelson, come quick, someone killed my family. They're all dead unquote. Nelson ran across the road barefoot and was shocked at the bloody scene. He checked all three family members for a pulse and found nun Kim, Brad, and Jill were all inconceivably gone. Nelson told David they needed to preserve the scene and wait outside. David called his older brother Donnie. He yelled into the phone and told him that his family was dead and he needed to come right away. David did not call any of Kim's relatives. Word traveled fast through the tight knit family, and soon Uncle Sam and his son arrived. Sam drove as fast as he could to get there. He arrived at the same time as the Tree troopers at nine forty two, about fifteen minutes after David called them. David was doubled over, crying and screaming when they pulled up. Quote, it was a scream that I've never heard before and I've never heard since. All I heard was David screaming, and I heard sirens. As officers were responding to the call.

40:19 David was hitting the back of his tailgate, that's where he was at. Then he went down on his knees and just laid down on the ground and started wailing unquote. The officers first swept the house looking for the murderer. They found no signs of forced entry. Although no one who lived on Lockhart Road locked their doors so family members could come and go as they pleased, nothing was out of order in the house to indicate an intruder. Police checked on the other relatives who lived on Lockhart Road in case there was some kind of massacre in the family. Everyone else was safe. More troopers arrived at the scene, as did David's father and other stunned family members. David alternated between tears and rage. He answered questions, but he wasn't officially interviewed until nearly midnight, when he was taken into the Sellersburg State Police Station, David's former post.

41:11 He yelled at all of the troopers and demanded that this investigation be done right. Because David was a former state trooper. Extra CSI troopers and security were assigned to the case. Trooper Shelley Romero, who David had been romantically intertwined with years earlier, rushed to the scene. She asked David if the murders could be the work of a scorned lover, she said. He looked her straight in the eyes and said, quote, no, Shelley, that's the one good thing about all this. I haven't been seeing anybody. Things have been going great. Ut David didn't want to leave the crime scene until the bodies of his family were taken, but the troopers insisted he'd be interviewed while details were still fresh in his mind. The troopers reminded David that their first priority was to clear him of the murders so they could find the real kill. However, even in the early investigation, David was the prime suspect, and many of his old friends had already made up their minds that he was guilty. Their experience told them when the husband or father is the sole survivor of a massacre, he is most likely the perpetrator. Detectives Mickey Neil and Darryl Gibson, both good friends of David's, interviewed him at the Sellersburg State Police Office. All parties felt uncomfortable. Donny cam brought his brother a fresh set of clothes so that David could hand over the clothes he had been wearing to be analyzed. The interview began at twelve twenty one.

42:37 There's audio of the interview, but no video. We've got some problems with things where they are, and that's why. You know roughtenor give the opportunity for more owners would be owners, cannot be lead, cannot be leaves. What do you mean peopley boy, you are going to try to blame me for killing my children in my daughter tried to clean some of the blood up. Something like that. No no, no, it's ridiculous. What about some bell each day? No no, no, no, no, no no no, I'm not your name.

43:24 We're gonna be through on this, David. Something else comes up post to somebody else, I guarandamnt you. We're gonna look there. But the fact is there is we collected right now at this point we to you. So he knew right away that they were looking at him for this when he's a police officer. So yeah, he knows that he's the prime suspect. It's interesting that I don't know what the alternative would have been, But was there any discussion about bringing in a different police force or different investigators. Yeah, it is weird that they chose. You know, the sellers were post where he had previously worked, but that's who he'd called, So I don't know if that was the chain of command, like they had to go to that. Yeah, but the New Albany police were also there. Okay, but that interview must have been just so awkward.

44:13 Yeah, I'm sure David talked about how he wasn't sure he could go on without his family. Quote, what kind of god puts a human being through so much? What lesson is he trying to teach me. I'm a little angry with God because I swear to you, if I killed myself, I will probably end up in hell. That's the only thing that's keeping me from doing it. Unquote, Detective Mickey Neil said, quote, Satan lives on this planet. He's very strong, and that's my belief. It's not because God's testing, It's because Satan is alive. And well, my suggestion to you, David is that you talk to God. You pray a lot, you ask for strength, but you've got to lean on God. You've got to lean on Christ. Quote.

44:54 When the interview shifted to talk of David's extramarital affairs, the recording was stopped. H that's interesting. He agreed to take a lie detector test, but one was never administered. David left the station at about two am and spent the night at his parents' house while the Indiana State Troopers searched the Cam house for any shred of evidence. Although none of the Cams slept much, they were all shocked and saddened. Susie Cam, David's mom was so hysterical a doctor called in a sedative for her. The whole family took one. Over the next three days, fifty troopers were tasked with finding the murder weapon. They searched every square inch of the Cam's house and property, including the septic tank. A back hoe was brought in to dig up the yard. However, no one searched any of the other homes on Lockhart Road, including Amos Lockhart's house across the road.

45:47 Remember, after David found his family, he ran across the road to his grandfather's house, so it's possible he could have stashed something there. Right. David agreed to provide a suspect kit to the investigation, but when he arrived at the hospital, he was. Belligerent a suspect, kid, is your hair and your DNA and blood, blood, all that. Stuff, okay. Instead of putting on a gown and using a sheet to cover his nudity, he told the nurse, who was an acquaintance, I'm going to let it all hang out. The nurse retrieved the samples, but David made her very uncomfortable. He had another tense moment days later when he stopped by his house with his uncle Sam to get clothing for Kim and the children to be buried in and pictures for the funeral. The troopers, most of them his old friends, refused him entry into his house.

46:37 It was still an active crime scene. They told him he yelled, body checked an officer, kicked and threw things. His behavior wasn't helping his case. The already suspicious troopers, who had once considered David a close friend, distanced themselves from him. In the days that followed, he frequently called the station for updates on the investigation. Everyone was told to record any interaction with David cam As. The sun rose the morning after the murderers, friends, co workers and residents awoke to the tragic news. The media had already began reporting on the story. The principal at Brand and Kim's school, Graceland Christian School, personally called all the families in their classrooms and told them to keep their students home that day. When the children returned to school on Monday, counselors were there to help them process their grief. Hours after her death, David called Kim's employer to tell them about her death. He told them to secure her desk, computer and voicemail for any potential evidence.

47:37 He said he'd call back soon to discuss her life insurance and benefits. They were valued at over six hundred and eighty thousand dollars or one point two million dollars today. After David and his sister Julie made funeral arrangements, they drove to see Kim's parents, Janis and Frank. David sobbed with them for an hour. Then they still believed in his innocence. In the days following the murders, David refused to shower, shave, or change his clothes. He refused to eat and barely slept. The autopsies were performed less than twenty four hours after their deaths, and was obvious that Kim had fought against her attacker. She had defensive wounds twenty two in total, scratches, abrasions, and bruising on her neck, chin, right elbow, and left knee. Strangely, Kim's feet and toes were bruised. Put a pin in that. We we'll get back to that later. There was dirt and DNA under her fingernails, and one nail of her right hand was ripped off. She had a white powdery substance in her pubic region. A single gunshot wound to the head killed Kim.

48:43 The bullet entered her head above her left ear and tore through her skull and brain. It had a downward trajectory and exited the right side of her head behind her ear, and then struck and splintered the windshield. Kim was likely brain dead within seconds, but her heart continued to pump up the through her body for several more minutes, which caused the trail of blood found on the garage floor. There was no evidence of a sexual assault, despite her pants being removed. A bullet entered seven year old Brad's left shoulder, ripped through his clavicle, first rib, and spinal cords, severing it. The bullet exited through his back near his right shoulder blade. He had several points of stippling on his face, indicating that he was shot from no more than two feet away. Brad's cause of death was due to the blood loss from internal injuries. Jill five was also shot at close range. The bullet entered her skull from behind her ear on the right side of her head.

49:38 The bullet passed through her brain and exited behind her left ear. The stippling marks on Jill were more pronounced than on Brad, indicating that she was shot at even closer range. The pathologist noted that Jill had blood in her underwear and that she had blunt force trauma to her genitalia and several abrasions consistent with sexual abuse. Her hymend room made intact and there was no evidence of seamen. The doctor also observed patichiel hemorrhaging on Jill's upper chest, arms, and face, as if she'd been held down. The pathologists suggested that she may have been sexually abused twelve to twenty four hours before her death, although the report never explicitly said that she had been sexually abused, but that her injuries were consistent with sexual abuse. The coroner estimated that the cams had all been dead for about three hours when their bodies were discovered. That's brutal.

50:34 That is really brutal. It's hard to hear that. By ten PM on the night of the murders, Floyd County Prosecutor Stan Faith arrived at the crime scene to investigate and build his case. He'd already hired a crime scene investigator and blood expert from Oregon, Rod Englert. Inklert was it available, but he sent his assistant, Robert Steitz Stites took the earliest flight possible to Indiana, a first class flight on the county's die Engler, and Stites only traveled first class. When Stan Faith arrived at the camhouse, he thought the crime scene looked too neat. Someone must have cleaned it up. A mop and bucket were found in the mudroom, along with an open bottle of bleach.

51:15 There were some dried white spots in the garage floor that investigators assumed to be spilled bleach. On the garage floor. A breezeway connected the garage to the house and the back deck. Steis saw dots of bleach on the decking and assumed the cleaning fluid had been thrown over the deck. No tests were run to confirm the presence of bleach, however, although David said he'd given Brad CPR, there were only one and a half bloody footprints near his body. I believe they were questioning whether or not David did CPR on Brad, thinking that if he actually like there would have been more bloody footprints around his body. Yeah. I would think so too, But David is a police officer and was probably being very careful.

52:00 Oh you think he didn't want to disturb evidence that right, Okay. So he knew, you know, not to step in blood and whatnot. Okay, I guess I'm sort of operating on the assumption that he did it. But if he didn't do it, that would make perfect sense. If you're a police officer, you would want to be very careful to preserve any evidence did do it. Maybe he would have mopped up some of his footprints, right, okay. David's aunt, Debbie, who lived on Lockhart Road, recalled hearing three loud, banging noises around nine thirty pm. She did not describe the noise as gunshots. Detectives, pressured by the prosecutor, tried to get her to say they were gunshots, but she knew what gunshots sounded like. Her husband was a police officer and they owned guns. Later, it was determined that what Debbie heard was David's striking his truck and anger and frustration after he found his slain family.

52:50 Interesting, and you said that the autopsy determined that they had been dead for three hours, right, So, meaning that the time of death was like earlier than six six thirty. Well, it wasn't sick. We'll get to that later. It's hard to know what time they were investigating this scene too. Do they mean when they started investigating around ten? Right, That's what I was wondering. At the time of death was sevenish. There was a small bullet hole in the windshield of the Bronco. Later it would be identified as the same bullet that had exited Kim's head. Only three very efficient gunshots had been fired, and remember David is a very good shot, right Steit's noted blood on the overhead garage door, which later turned out to be motor oil. He misidentified several spots around the house as blood on a jacket, a shower curtain, and sighting, among others, Kim's shoes. A pair of low heeled loafers were placed neatly on the roof of her Bronco.

53:50 Blood spattered from the head travels a maximum of four feet when hit with a thirty eight caliber bullet. From the chamber of the gun to its target, a bullet travels six hundred eighty two miles per hour, and when it penetrates a human skull, the result is high velocity blood spatter. The blood is in such a fine miss that it can be hard to see with a human eye, and It can be a good investigative tool because the suspect may not even know that they are covered with the distinctive cast off. Robert Stits examined David's clothing from the night of the murders, a pair of shorts and old trooper T shirt, socks, and converse sneakers. The shorts were clean, one sock had a few spots of blood.

54:33 There were traces of blood on one of the shoes, and eight small spots of blood grouped together on the bottom left of the T shirt. The blood was Jill's. Traces of gunshot residue were also found on David's T shirt, shorts, and socks. Stites believe the blood on the T shirt was high velocity blood spatter, meaning that David must have been the shooter that killed Jill. There were many, many more stains on David's T shirt. They were just focusing on this small area because they thought that the high velocity blood spatter was very telling. Okay, there were many more stains that were blood stains or other kind of stains. Yeah, blood stains. He's picking up bread and he's trying to give him CPR, and so I.

55:17 Would imagine it would be hard to distinguish between just regular bloodstains from him handling the bodies of his family members versus kind of the spatter. But they were saying that they thought these were the result of spatter, not him handling their bodies exactly okay. Later, speaking about high velocity blood spatter to forty eight hours, Ridingler said, quote, this is so unique and so separate from other stains that one can say with confidence that this is from high velocity missed and that the person that got this on them would be in close proximity within four feet of the shots when they were fired. End quote. All this to say that they really thought they had David cam This was hard evidence that proved that he was the shooter.

56:04 Sounds like they do to me so far. The officers at the scene didn't think that Stuites knew what he was doing. At one point they told him to get lost. Years later, it would be revealed that this was his first active crime scene he had visited, and he had no formal education in blood science. He was actually a crime scene photographer and assistant to Rod Engler, not an actual blood stain analyst, but that didn't stop from from staining his opinions in fact and changing the trajectory of the investigation. A gray Haines sweatshirt was found at the crime scene near Brad's body. The word backbone handwritten with a sherpie and all capitals on the inside of the collar. An investigator with a keen eye thought that it was a prison issued sweatshirt. David said it wasn't his, but some people who had been at the basketball game said they'd seen him wearing a sweatshirt. The state ignored the sweat as significant evidence. In fact, it wouldn't be tested for years.

57:05 Wow, and it was found you said, near Brad's. Bodies, either under his body or near his body. Really. An unknown palm print was found on the exterior of Kim's bronco. It was dismissed as evidence because she parked in a public lot at work and it was assumed not to be linked to the crime. During the search of the camp home, investigators discovered that David had ordered his unused MP five submachine gun ammunition from his times a SWAT officer in his basement. Also in the basement were dozens of tickets that he had written and then. Not issued for Oh interesting, Yeah. Trooper Shelly Romero called David a few times in the days after the murders to check up on him. He wept her over the phone, and she thought at times he sounded suicidal. He told her that he had nothing to wear to the funeral because he wasn't allowed back into his house to get a suit, and he didn't have his wallet to buy anything. She offered to take him shopping. The next day, when talking to investigators, he mentioned to them that they should look into Shelley as a possible suspect. He also mentioned that they should look into a couple of Mexicans that he worked with. So David is I mean, he's lost his family and we can feel bad for him. He's still kind of a dirt bag, seems like it. Days after the murders, the Lockhart family gave a press conference at the Georgetown Community Church, the church founded by Amos Lockhart, David's grandfather. About a dozen family members were there. Noticeably absent was David. The media swarmed David as he left church for an interview

58:37 days after the murders. He choked back tears and said, I want my family back, I want my babies back, and my wife but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. There is no rational explanation for this. I don't know if it was a personal attack on me or meant to be a personal attack on my wife. But if they have any decency, any compassion in their body at all, they'll turn themselves in. Turn yourself in. You can't live with a guilt. What you did was such an irrational, ridiculous, ludicrous, demonstrative, satanic thing. You cannot live with that guilt. Much to David's dismay, the old dashboard footage from the troopers beating the nineteen year old male resurfaced and again circulated through the media. Well, my friend, I think that's where we have to stop for today.

59:25 Oh man, I am really intrigued by this one. This is an interesting story. It is a very interesting. It's very sad, but it's also very interesting. Yeah. So I saw a funny article. Here's the headline. Ryan Seacrest reeling with regret after taking over Wheel of Fortune from Pat Say Jack, it's a dumpster fire of fan hatred. Oh boy, that's tough. That is tough. I feel bad for him. I think that happens to a lot of game show hosts that step into someone else's shoes. He'd ken Jennings is struggling too. Yeah. I think people, you know, they they like what they're used to and any change can be a little bit jarring.

1:00:10 And I don't know why. I know there are a lot of people out there who like Pat say Jack. I don't know why, but you know, I can imagine you Sep say Jack. He seemed like a hostage there at the end. Yeah, he didn't seem to be enjoying his time there at all. Yeah, he just seemed really hard to be fresh when you do the exact same job for forty years or however long it was. I know, once we get to forty years on our podcast, I'm sure we will also be grumpy and not not. Very probably be dead in forty years. But yeah, I love Mary kill from beyond the Grave. I hope Ryan Seacrest settles into the job and the fans start to accept him. Well, we were talking about this the other day, how uh, we don't watch a lot of TV. We actually sometimes after dinner though we will flip on. We don't flip on.

1:00:59 Weel a four and have haven't really had an appetite for that for a long time. No, well ever since they changed from like, you know, what's a common phrase that would be on Wheel of Fortune, be like life is beautiful or whatever that's but now it's like wind water, windmills or something like that. Yeah, it. Predictable. But sometimes we do watch Family Feud and we were in a long Jeopardy streak there. Yeah, we haven't watched that in quite a while. But but now we just kind of after dinner, we usually just go work on our our work. But my point was, we don't really watch network television very much, so I'm curious, like, are you guys watching network television?

1:01:41 Like I think a lot of people are watching that's like streaming, right, or you know a lot of people watch YouTube and things like that. Yeah, even while we're just talking about we see a commercial for a sitcom or whatever, who watches these shows? Like, because we never watch anything on network TV or very rare. You haven't in a really long time. Yeah, we have the news on sometimes, but even that's not that common for us, right, So it's just kind of wild to think about who is still watching network TV. And I bet the average age is probably fifty or older. Yeah, probably things have changed a lot in the world of media in the last twenty years or even less. Well, I'm not a huge Ryan Seacrest fan. I don't really think he needed another job. No, I hope he figures it out.

1:02:27 What are Ryan Seacrest's other job? I don't really keep up with his LinkedIn? I mean, I don't really either. He was with Kelly Rippa on her morning show, but I think he left that and her husband took over for him. He's an executive producer on a ton of stuff, and he's got Ryan Seacrest's New Year's rockety And I don't know why we're talking about Ryan Seacrest just so long. But I don't know American idol oh, I don't know he's I guess he has time now that he's. Well a fortune. Probably takes one one day a week. They probably should talk a lot about Yeah, how it's not a ton of work. Yeah, okay, I'm sorry that was a really boring conversation. You were going to mention some some fact about woodpeckers that you saw today.

1:03:11 That's a great, great, great, Yeah, so I read it. Really. I love birds, as you know, we all love birds. Who doesn't love birds, But no, I read a really interesting factor. A lot of people don't love birds. Just to clarify, a lot of people really are petrified of birds. I like words from a distance. Yeah yeah, same here. I'm actually petrified of birds when they're too close up. But I read a really interesting facts the woodpeckers. You know, they bang their head against like a tree or wood, like over and over again. But do you know why they are able to do that without getting brain their little tiny brains injured? No, tell us, Well, it's because so they have really really long tongues, which makes sense because they got to, you know, get their tongue into little tight crevices to get the bugs that they eat. But what happens is when their tongue re tracks, it actually wraps around their brain like they have like this, like their tongue goes back into their head and it sort of wraps around their brain and it cushions their little tiny brain. I know, isn't that crazy?

1:04:14 That is really crazy? I thought it was one of the skull is an open cavity. It's sort of like hollow inside like around their skull and like the I don't know exactly, don't don't get me too far down into the details of this, because I can't. I haven't dissected a woodpecker myself, but god, but yeah, it just sort of like goes around near where their brain is and it cushions it. Well. I'm sorry for those idiotic conversations, but we always try to leave you with like a little something that's maybe something you can talk about with a friend. I didn't know about that wood That lightens the mood a little bit. After all that you can press your friends with that woodpecker stat.

1:04:55 I think the woodpecker is pretty good. Yeah, just whip that out at a dinner party and people will be like, you will be the life of the party. I promise is. You often are. Of course, I'm looking forward to telling you the rest of this case we have. There's a lot to get too, I'm looking forward to hearing it. Well. If you want to hear both parts of this case right now, you can go to patreon dot com slash love Mary Kill and become a subscriber five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode as well. We try not to self promote too much, but if you want early access, we usually get the episodes on Patreon forty eight hours early. Our goal is usually Saturday by Saturday by two, and we usually meet that goal.

1:05:39 And I think the big thing too is if we do multipart episodes, which we do fairly regularly because we do like to get into detail, both to or or if it's a three part episode, they'll all be available right. Away and usually Saturday at two, so not just a day early, but two days early, and no adds. Thank you so much for listening until next time. Don't kill your wife. Don't kill your husband.