Oct. 28, 2024

Kim and David Camm - Part 1

Kim and David Camm - Part 1
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On September 28, 2000, David Camm returned home from a night of playing basketball with friends to find his wife and two young children brutally murdered. Despite his 10-year career as an Indiana State Trooper, suspicion quickly fell upon him due in part to a botched investigation of the crime scene. What followed is an unbelievable 13-year legal battle as David fought to prove his innocence.

Hear both parts today on Patreon.

Today's snack: Cucumber salad

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

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we've learned over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary, Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how

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are you? I'm doing pretty good? How are you?

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I'm great? And I hope all our listeners are great too.

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I hope so too.

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This morning I watched a video on how to be

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a better podcaster.

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Oh wow, watch out, everyone up in our game.

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I'm trying. It doesn't have come as naturally to me

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as it does to you.

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Well, I think you're pretty good at it.

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Well, thank you. Happy sweetest day.

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Today, sweetest day? Yeah, oh, happy sweetest day.

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To look a panic on your face. You weren't. I'm

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just kidding. We don't really observe that day.

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I had no idea.

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It did make you a snack. Because I love you.

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I went in a little bit of a different direction today.

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Okay, here you go. Okay, what do we have here?

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The bowl of you made me a nice little salad.

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I made you the viral Chiktok cucumber salad.

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Oh man, this is I'm really excited about it.

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I made you I cut up a little I knew

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you would maybe leave out of anger, so I gave

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you a little bit of bread too.

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Okay, excellent will I made.

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This last week for myself for lunch. Did you have

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any of it? Then?

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No? I did not.

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Okay, I think it's really delicious.

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Okay, Well, thank you.

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The video I watched this morning did not recommend eating

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cucumbers before you podcast.

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Yeah.

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The recipe is cucumbers, scallions, garlic, sayt sauce, fish sauce,

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sesame oil, a pinch of sugar MS, and a sprinkle

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of sesame seeds. I didn't use MSG, but I added

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some tomatoes and avocado and some rice wine vinegar. The

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recipe is really forgiving. It's not forgiving, but it's like

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whatever you want to put in you throw in there. Yeah,

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and I also added a pinch of red pepper flakes.

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What did you think?

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Well, definitely was a different direction. It was pretty good.

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I mean, for like a little salad type of thing.

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I didn't love the Maybe it's the rice vinegar or

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something gave it kind of a sour flavor, which I

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didn't love.

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You don't love pickled things and I do, so I

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really like it. I would give it a ten out

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of ten.

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I'd give it a six out of ten.

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Oh, okay, well let's put on an average. Yeah, if

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you stick around for part two, I might have made

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something like it's probably like a dream snack of yours,

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oh dream dessert. Yeah, you'll be really excited.

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To start around. Well, let's get on with it. Then.

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Today we are going to tell you the story of

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Kim and David Cam. And this one is a doozy.

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It was recommended to us by our patron and listener, Melissa.

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Thank you so much, Melissa. I really enjoyed researching this case.

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Today's episode does contain themes of a violence against women

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and children and sexual assault, so please listen with care.

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Like many of you listening, the Cams were in the

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throes of parenting young children while working full time, juggling

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home work and family obligations. Wednesday, September twenty seventh, two thousand,

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was another busy day as usual for the act of

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Cam family. David Camp, thirty six, recently retired after a

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ten year career, is an Indiana State trooper. That day,

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he had lunch with his brother and several of his

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old Trooper friends and bragged about how well everything in

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his life was going with his family and his new

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job working for his uncle's company. David returned to work

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for the afternoon while Kim picked up the kids. After school,

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they went to church for a special children's Bible night.

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The church was the center of the camp's social life.

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After eating dinner at church, they returned home to watch

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Olympic gymnastics and swimming. The Olympics were held in Sydney

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that year. The US women won bronze in the all around.

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The next morning, the cam family overslapped. After their late

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night Olympic watching. David ran out to get Hostess cupcakes

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for breakfast, while Kim dressed the children and got their

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bags ready for their after school activities. I know what

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you're saying. Hostess cupcakes is a weird thing to run

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out and grab that. Ba I was thinking the book

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that I read, That's what the author stated. Janis Ran,

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the children's grandmother, was picking them up after school. David

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kissed Kim and the kids goodbye before leaving at seven

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ten am. As he walked out the door, he reminded

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Kim that it was his basketball night and was the

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last time he would see his wife and children alive.

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Kim dropped the kids off at school and then went

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to her mom's house to give her the after school bags.

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Janis gave Kim a piece of coffee cake for breakfast,

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and she was off to work. When David got to work,

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he made about thirty calls to potential customers and visited

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a crew on a job site to survey their progress.

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Kim left work at four to watch Jill's dance class. Meanwhile,

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Janis took Brad to the doctor for his weekly asthma shot,

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and then back to her house for a quick snack

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of ice cream and oreos before his swim practice. She

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sounds like a good grandma. Kim showed up with Jill

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shortly after and changed out of her work clothes into

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a sweater and jeans. At about five forty five, Kim

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and the kids left for Hazelwood Junior High School for

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Brad's swim practice. Janie fondly remembers her grandchildren smiling, pulling

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pea signs and saying peace Grandma as they drove off. Meanwhile,

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David left work at about five pm. He made a

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few phone calls from his car and then stopped at

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home to change clothes before his basketball game. He had

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a quick chat with his uncle Nelson in the driveway,

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who was staying across the road with his Grandpa Amos.

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That night, the family took turns spending time with a

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ninety two year old patriarch. His beloved wife of seventy years, Daisy,

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had died a year earlier. David felt the familiar throb

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of a migraine creeping behind his eyes. He injected himself

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with immatrus and laid down for twenty minutes and waited

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for the pain to subside. After he arose at six twenty,

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David made another quick work call to confirm an appointment

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for the next day. Ten minutes later, the Schwans guy

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pulled up. David told him he only had a few

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minutes before he had to leave for a basketball game.

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He bought ham and cheese omelets and jalapeno poppers. By

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six forty five, the Schwan's man was on his way.

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David stowed the food in the freezer, then at six

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point fifty he headed towards Georgetown Community Church, just three

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miles away, in his new company truck. The church had

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been built by David's grandfather, Amos Lockhart decades earlier. The

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Cams went to church there every Sunday and were very involved.

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Kim served as treasurer. Recently, David had helped build the

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Family Life Center, complete with a full gym and basketball court.

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David was one of the first players to arrive at

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the church a few minutes before seven. At least six

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of the players were relatives or worked with David. The

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alarm was deactivated at six five twenty nine p m,

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including David. Twelve men showed up. The men played five

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on five. The games lasted about twenty minutes until one

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team scored twenty points. One man sat out each game.

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David set out the second game, which was about seven thirty.

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He stretched on the sidelines, drank a sports drink, chatted

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with an old family friend who showed up chom jolly,

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and then ran a couple of laps. At nine PM,

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two people left and the remaining men played a last

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game of four on four. At nine twenty two PM,

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the gym was locked and the alarm was set. Later,

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all eleven men confirmed that David never left the gym.

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At nine twenty seven, David returned home to find Kim's

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garage door opened, which surprised him. As he pulled into

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the attached garage, he saw a gruesome scene. Kim was

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slumped on the floor of the garage next to her

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black two door Ford Bronco, hanseless with a fatal gunshot

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wound to her head. David knew what death looked like.

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He knew that Kim was gone. Brad and Jill were

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in the back of the Bronco, also shot. Jill was

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strapped into her car seat, her body pressed against the door.

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Brad was draped over the back seat. He'd unbuckled from

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his car seat and attempted to climb into the back

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to escape the attacker. Jill was cold to the touch,

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but David thought that Brad was still warm. Leaning over Jill,

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he pulled Brad from the car, laid him on the ground,

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and attempted CPR. As he blew breaths and to Brad,

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he could feel the air escaping his neck wound. A

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trail of dark blood oozed across the garage floor and

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onto the driveway. A clear liquid also trickled down the

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driveway alongside the blood. David ran inside the house and

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frantically called the Indiana State Police at the Sellarsburg Post

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forty five, where David had previously worked. Can say, please say.

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You Chris, Can I help you?

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So you came. Let me talk the post man right now. Okay,

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he's going out of the line. Now let me on

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um only.

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Day.

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Get everybody out here to my house now, okay, all right,

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all right, but my kids are dead. Get everybody out

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here at my house. Go to Okay, David, we're gonna

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we got people on the way.

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Okay, get everybody out here where everything's gonna be okay,

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all right, we're gonna get every.

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Everythink's not okay. Get everybody out here.

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They're coming. Go to Dave Can's house.

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Now, Okay. Do you know what happened? David?

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Then I just don't. Oh my god, we're looking, David.

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They're on their way right now.

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Okay, I got everybody.

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Coming, but I'm gonna let you talk to the tree.

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So I get people come on the street. I gotta

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get the hill. Okay, David, do you need an ambulance

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to my parents? You need an ambulance. Get everybody out.

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I'm a go, Dave.

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How that's intense?

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David later said he didn't call nine one one because

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he thought the troopers would do a better job. Quote,

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I wanted my people there. If I'd wanted a screwed

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up investigation done, I'd have called the Sheriff's department instead

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of the state Although the Sellersburg State Police Post was

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several minutes further away than the New Albany Police department

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where the Cams lived. That was the most emotional nine

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to one one call I think I've ever heard. What

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do you think of?

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Yeah, super intense, and you know, I don't who knows

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how you would react in that situation, but I think

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that's how I would retain me.

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That sounds like a very authentic reaction. He was. He

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is a very emotional person, but I don't think anyone

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can fault him for that. It seemed very authentic to me.

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Yeah, it did to me too. David Ray Cam was

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born to parents Delfa, Susie and Don on March twenty third,

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nineteen sixty four. Susie and Don met while he was

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on leave from the Air Force, where he served as

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a light engineer in Korea during the war. After he

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completed his service, he returned to New Albany, Indiana population

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thirty five thousand, and married Delpha Susie Lockhart on February ninth,

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nineteen fifty six.

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She usually just went by Susie.

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I would imagine I would too if my name was Delfa.

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It's a very unusual name.

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It's kind of cool.

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Soon after they married, they welcomed Donnie Junior, Julie and David,

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followed by Daniel. Don worked as a mechanic and Susie

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as a homemaker, but after their fourth child was born,

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Susie decided to get a job. She worked at a

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furniture store as a salesperson. David grew up surrounded by

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his big family on both sides. The Lockharts have especially

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deep roots in Indiana. David's grandfather, Amos, and his wife Daisy,

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had nine children. They were pillars of the community and

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founded several churches. Each Sunday, after church, they gathered together

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for a big family meal with the whole family. The

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children loved playing with all of their cousins. Amos bought

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a large parcel of land in Georgetown, Indiana, about ten

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miles north of New Albany, and constructed a road through it.

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He called it Lockhart Road for his family. Georgetown, Indiana,

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has a population of about thirty eight hundred and is

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about ten miles northwest of Louisville, Kentucky, one hundred and

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twenty miles south of Indianapolis, and nine miles west of

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New Albany.

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I'm sorry that was a lot of geography there.

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It's okay. It's good to get a picture of where

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where things are at. Amos sold plots of land to

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family members to build their homes. Not only were they family,

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but they were neighbors too. David and his siblings had

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a good childhood, hunting, fishing, swimming, and hiking, always surrounded

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by family and church events to keep them busy. David

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00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.320
suffered a severe injury to his kidneys just before starting

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school that resulted in a severe case of nephritis, inflammation

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of the kidney which might make it more difficult for

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the body to filter blood. He spent four weeks in

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the hospital and missed the first semunt of first grade.

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Once he recovered, David was behind his classmates and struggled

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to catch up to them academically, but he was a

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natural athlete. He also liked to build things and tinker.

254
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When he got older, he would take car engines apart

255
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and rebuild them. When David was eight, he told his

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mother he wanted to be a preacher, but as he

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grew older, he changed his mind, as children usually do,

258
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and decided that he wanted to become a police officer

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00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:30.759
like his uncle Nelson. From a young age, David suffered

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from migraines that would plague him for the rest of

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00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.919
his life. Susie took him to the doctor who gave

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00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:39.559
him medicine, but nothing made the headaches better. David was

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00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.879
quiet but made friends easily. Though David was an average student,

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00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.039
he was a star athlete, especially at baseball, but he

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didn't like the attention that it brought him. When he

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was fifteen, David was fixated on buying a jeep. He

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worked at a restaurant and saved up enough money to

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buy a rundown jeep and worked hard to restore it.

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He graduated from New Albany High School in nineteen eighty two,

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then got work at body shops. He began casually seeing

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00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:10.000
a young woman named Tamara. When she became pregnant, their

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00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.320
parents got involved and strongly suggested they should get married.

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On November thirteenth, nineteen eighty two, David and Tammy, both eighteen,

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were married. She was four months pregnant. Tammy moved into

275
00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.039
the Camhouse with David and his parents when she began

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00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.159
spotting and was put on bed rest. She became depressed

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00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.559
and withdrawn. On February ninth, nineteen eighty three, Tammy went

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00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.879
into pre term labor. She was only thirty weeks long,

279
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.440
but Whitney Lane Cam was born healthy and adored by all.

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David decided he needed a better, steadier job and joined

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00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:49.720
the new Albany Police Department as a volunteer auxiliary policeman.

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Because the local police departments weren't hiring, David decided to

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00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.559
apply to be an Indiana State trooper. He began taking

284
00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:02.360
courses in police administration part time at Indiana University. Three

285
00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.039
years into their marriage, in April nineteen eighty six, Tammy

286
00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.200
and David decided to divorce. She was still in love

287
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.039
with an old boyfriend who was in the military stationed

288
00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:15.240
in Germany, and David had had several flings with multiple

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00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.559
women during the marriage. Kimberly star Wren was born on

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March fourteenth, nineteen sixty four, to Janis and Frank.

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00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:27.159
Which was just nine days before David was born. Ah,

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00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.559
that was what the book that I read said. But

293
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.360
I think the book was wrong. Oh really, I think

294
00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.240
she was actually born in nineteen sixty five, a year

295
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.039
after David.

296
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.559
Okay. Janis and Frank both graduated in nineteen sixty one

297
00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.799
from New Albany High School, where they were high school sweethearts.

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Kim was born at the same New Albany hospital as

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00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.519
her future husband, Debbie, was born two years later. The

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00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.879
sisters were very close. Debbie always looked up to Kim,

301
00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.639
who made everything look so easy. Kim was shy, smart,

302
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.600
and a hard worker. In high school, she was a

303
00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.679
popular cheerleader on the Palm Squad, a member of the

304
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.879
square Dancing club, and on the student council square Dancing Club.

305
00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:11.000
I don't think we had a square dancing club.

306
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:11.879
He did not either.

307
00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.039
Janis said that as her oldest daughter entered puberty, she

308
00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.600
became more withdrawn. She often felt that Kim was dealing

309
00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:23.399
with something, but she kept it bottled up. Kim graduated

310
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.159
with honors in nineteen eighty three. She majored in accounting

311
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.679
and finished her degree in three years at Indiana University.

312
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.679
She quickly got a job working as an accountant for

313
00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:35.679
Agon Insurance in Louisville.

314
00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.399
In nineteen eighty eight, Kim was set up on a

315
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.919
blind date by a friend. It was love at first

316
00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.720
site for Kim twenty two in David twenty three. Despite

317
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.240
living in the same town, attending the same high school,

318
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.320
and the same college, they had never met before. Kim

319
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:54.120
instantly loved David's daughter, Whitney, who was now five. Kim

320
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:58.360
and David, both introverted and reserved, blossomed as a couple. Kim,

321
00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.279
a lifelong Protestant, agreed to convert to Catholicism for David.

322
00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.440
The Wrens liked David, but they weren't happy about her

323
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.359
conversion to a new religion, but still embraced the couple.

324
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.599
David and Kim were married on May thirteenth, nineteen eighty nine.

325
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.519
David's uncle performed the ceremony. After a quick honeymoon to Florida,

326
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.240
with Kim's support and encouragement, David took the rigorous Indiana

327
00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.559
State Trooper Exam. There are five parts to the test,

328
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:29.880
a written test, an oral interview, a polygraph, a psychological evaluation,

329
00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.799
and a fitness test, as well as a background check.

330
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.799
I wonder what they ask in the polygraph.

331
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.839
It's probably pretty basic, but that's a that's a pretty

332
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.440
rigorous that is very vigorous. The results weren't mailed out

333
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.440
for five months, but David passed and was sworn in

334
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.960
in December nineteen eighty nine and began three months of

335
00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:55.160
rigorous training. David began his police career at Sellersburg, Indiana

336
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.400
Post forty five, which employed about sixty people. David had

337
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.680
struggled with his self esteem and confidence all his life,

338
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.559
but his chest swelled with pride with his new job.

339
00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.720
And you know what they say about a man in uniform.

340
00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.680
Ladies began noticing the young state trooper. His positive attitude

341
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.200
and work ethic got the attention of his superiors. His sister,

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00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:20.640
Julie said, quote, he discovered that he had some real

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00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.759
gifts and talents, and he was getting a lot of accolades.

344
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.640
He got pretty pompous. He went through a period where

345
00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.039
he got pretty confident and really was loving who he was.

346
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.160
Chief Randy Hubbard, David's mentor, said, quote, he knew he

347
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.880
was good. He was very cocky. So we're painting a

348
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:42.920
picture right this, you know, pretty good looking young guy,

349
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.640
all of a sudden, you know his state trooper and

350
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:47.519
everyone's noticing him.

351
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:47.839
I can.

352
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.079
During his second year as a state trooper, he was

353
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.519
selected for the Emergency Response Team, which is the Indiana

354
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:59.119
State Troopers Special Weapons and Taxes Tactics Team or SWAT Team.

355
00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.880
He loved the high pressure, high reward position. David was

356
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:08.400
a designated firearm expert and sharpshooter. David was a designated

357
00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.240
firearm expert and sharpshooter. He got nearly a perfect score

358
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:16.119
on the Indiana State Police shooting test. He was especially

359
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.160
talented with the MP five or machine pistol five. David

360
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.119
was a part of the SPAT team for six years.

361
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:26.960
He continued to suffer from debilitating migraines that he'd had

362
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.720
since childhood. David knock him off his feet for a

363
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:31.880
few days at a time and then not happened again

364
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.279
for months. His doctor gave him a prescription for imatrex,

365
00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:39.359
but the drug affected his work performance, making him nauseous, dizzy, weak,

366
00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:42.720
and stiff. So we often chose to suffer through the pain.

367
00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:45.480
I can't imagine having migraines that bad. I mean, just

368
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:47.519
you go on maybe like once a year, yeah, but

369
00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:49.319
not not like days at a time. I mean that

370
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:50.599
would really be debilitating.

371
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.319
David worked long, erratic hours, and Kim also had a

372
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.799
demanding schedule working as an accountant. There was little time

373
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.440
for the young couple, and soon David gave a into temptation. Apparently,

374
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:06.480
the troopers were besieged by women who they called badge bunnies.

375
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.079
And you can imagine what a badge bunny is.

376
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:10.839
I can't, Okay, I've never heard that term.

377
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.000
But yes, our friend Lisa, who is a listener, her

378
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.319
husband was a police officer, and she confirmed that there

379
00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.359
are there are a lot of badge bunnies out there.

380
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.960
Yes, if you are someone married to police officer, you

381
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:23.920
have to prepare yourself.

382
00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.519
I guess you would hate the badge bunnies. The trooper

383
00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:28.960
were known to take women to a special spot off

384
00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.480
the highway and have sex in the back of their cruisers.

385
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.720
In nineteen ninety one, David was promoted again, this time

386
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.480
to field training officer. He trained and supervised new recruits.

387
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.839
This is when he met Shelley Romero, a twenty something

388
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.880
pretty blonde. Their stories differ. They started as friends, but

389
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:50.039
their relationship soon became physical. David claimed that their affair

390
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.640
only lasted weeks, but Shelley said it lasted for two years.

391
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.160
David wasn't only involved with Shelley, he had a whole

392
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.720
lineup of women to choose from.

393
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:01.960
Did Kim know about these affairs.

394
00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.200
I don't think she did at this point. No, he

395
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.799
worked at erratic hours and I think he was discreet too.

396
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.319
Despite his affairs, he and Kim were eager to start

397
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:14.839
a family. In the spring of nineteen ninety two, Kim

398
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.920
discovered she was pregnant. Bradley Ray Cam was born on

399
00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:21.559
February first, nineteen ninety three. No one loved Brad more

400
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.519
than his ten year old big sister, Whitney. They shared

401
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.480
a close bond. Kim and David were fortunate to have

402
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.200
two doting grandmothers who looked after Brad so she could

403
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.440
continue working. Kim loved being a mother, but also loved

404
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.400
her career. She had received several promotions and had a

405
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.920
bright career ahead of her. Her salary was more than

406
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.160
twice what David made as a trooper. In addition, she

407
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.400
also received a generous yearly bonus. In the summer of

408
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:50.200
nineteen ninety two, David met a personal trainer named Stephanie McCarty.

409
00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:52.400
He was taken with her, but she had a living

410
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.880
boyfriend and had no interest in starting an affair. But

411
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:58.400
after she and her boyfriend broke up two years later,

412
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:01.599
David was there to dry her tears. Soon they became

413
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.480
a couple and spent several nights a week together. David

414
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:06.720
wasn't afraid to take his new girlfriend out in public.

415
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.599
They went to nice dinners, dancing at clubs, and spent

416
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.720
weekends at NASCAR races. Stephanie believed that David was unhappy

417
00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.000
in his marriage and planned to divorce his wife, but

418
00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:19.880
soon Kim was pregnant again. One afternoon, David and Stephanie

419
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.119
were in his house in the basement, making out on

420
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.440
the couch like a couple of teenagers. When Kim surprised

421
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.279
them by coming home early. They were able to sneak

422
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.240
out of the house without getting caught. Poor Kim had

423
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:33.720
no idea what her husband was doing behind her back.

424
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.799
Stephanie found out that Kim was pregnant again and told

425
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.960
David they couldn't continue the affair, But when David and

426
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.119
his brother went away for the weekend to Atlanta to

427
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:45.160
a NASCAR event, he bought her a plane ticket and

428
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:46.160
she joined them.

429
00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:48.400
What happened to being discreet all of a sudden, It

430
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:50.960
seems like he is just out in the open with

431
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:51.480
this affair.

432
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.599
At times, David became very reckless.

433
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.720
When Kim was six months pregnant and baby Brad was

434
00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.960
about twenty months old, she realized something was going on

435
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.319
with her husband. She confronted him and he admitted that

436
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.880
he was having an affair. He was blunt and apathetic

437
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.839
with his wife of five years and told her that

438
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.920
he was in love with another woman and wanted a divorce.

439
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.720
Kim was heartbroken. She and Brad went and stayed with

440
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:20.720
her parents, but then she became angry and went back

441
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:22.960
to her house and told David that he had to leave.

442
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:25.720
When David asked his mother if he could stay with

443
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:28.759
her for a while, she refused. This was a big

444
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.640
deal because Susie cam babied David and he could do

445
00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:35.160
no wrong in her eyes, but his adulterous behavior crossed

446
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.720
a line. He had an ugly temper tantrum after Susie

447
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.839
told him no for the first time in his life.

448
00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:44.680
He threw chairs around the kitchen, put holes in the walls,

449
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.359
and smashed furniture. Susy was so upset she called the

450
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:50.599
police and requested that they go to his house and

451
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.039
intervene before he destroyed his home. When the officers arrived,

452
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.559
David played off his anger and said he was fine.

453
00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.559
The house was in rough shape, but the office felt

454
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.519
like he'd calm down enough, and no report was filed.

455
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.079
Kim and David decided to divorce and sell their house.

456
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.799
David rented a one bedroom apartment in New Albany, and

457
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.480
soon after he had a new neighbor, Stephanie McCarty moved

458
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:18.319
in next door. Kim also rented a one bedroom apartment

459
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.000
for her Brad and the new baby. Kim was heartbroken.

460
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.400
She never imagined herself as a single mother. It's really

461
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:28.759
tough too, and she's still pregnant and expecting the baby

462
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.720
to be going through all that, oh, definitely. David's family

463
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:34.920
tried to convince him to patch things up with Kim,

464
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:39.680
but he refused. He spent Christmas with Stephanie's family instead.

465
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.160
Susie and Don Cam stepped up in their son's absence

466
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:47.160
most nights after work. Kim, who was far into her pregnancy,

467
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.839
ate dinner with her in laws and then they would

468
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.799
drive her back to her apartment and help bathe Brad

469
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:53.680
and put him to bed.

470
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:56.400
They seem like really good people they do.

471
00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.319
It's refreshing to see parents that aren't afraid to out

472
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:04.960
their son's bad behavior exactly. On February twenty eighth, nineteen

473
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:08.160
ninety five, Kim gave birth to a baby girl, Jillian

474
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.480
Catherine cam Both sides of the family were there to

475
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.039
support Kim, but David didn't show up to meet his

476
00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:19.000
new daughter. Stephanie became increasingly uncomfortable with the situation and

477
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.759
began talking to her ex boyfriend. Because she and David

478
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:25.240
were neighbors, he kept close tabs on her and knew

479
00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:28.359
when she wasn't home. It came to a boiling point

480
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.519
one night when David confronted her. He put a gun

481
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:35.519
to his chest and threatened to shoot himself. Stephanie calmed

482
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.960
him down and then told him she no longer wanted

483
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.160
to date him. She told him to go back to

484
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.039
his wife and children. David called Kim the next day

485
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.599
and asked her to meet him. He said he had

486
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.559
a vision from God telling him to return to his family,

487
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:51.680
so they didn't tell her that it was his girlfriend

488
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.079
that told him to rest me maybe he had both.

489
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.160
He reassured his wife that he was dedicated to her

490
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:02.319
and the children and wouldn't stray again. Kim agreed to reconcile.

491
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:05.680
Amos Lockhart offered David a one and a half acre

492
00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:08.319
plot of land across the road from him to build

493
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.279
a house on their family road. He and Kim built

494
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.400
a tidy, three bedroom, two bathroom house with a detached

495
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.279
garage and moved in six months later. David helped his

496
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.279
grandparents out by mowing their lawn and fixing things around

497
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.240
the house, while Kim, who was still working her job

498
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.480
full time, took care of the kids, cooked, cleaned, and

499
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:31.160
did the laundry. Kim never complained. She was grateful to

500
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.200
have family nearby who watched Brad and Jill during the day.

501
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.599
Kim and David were both doing well in their careers.

502
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.599
Kim was promoted to senior accountant and David had received

503
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.119
a bronze star for valor when he attempted to save

504
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.119
a drowning man attempted.

505
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.480
Yeah, the man didn't make it. He pulled him out

506
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.720
of the water and gave him CPR, but it was

507
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:52.200
too late.

508
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.559
Oh that's too bad, David was hoping to be promoted

509
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:59.720
to detectives soon. David loved cars. On his thirty fourth

510
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.720
birth that Kim bought him a nineteen sixty six Mustang

511
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.720
with her annual bonus. Wow, that is a very nice gift. Yeah,

512
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.039
still training new recruits. In late nineteen ninety six, David

513
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:14.440
met another pretty young woman trooper named Lorie Rumph. One night,

514
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.680
several of the troopers went out drinking and dancing. David

515
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:21.240
tried to kiss Laurie. She quickly thwarted his advances and

516
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.759
reminded him that he was married. Soon, David fell back

517
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.960
into his old pattern of flirting with and propositioning women.

518
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.559
A former co worker said, quote, he'd just wink at you,

519
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.079
or he'd rub my leg under the table in the squadroom,

520
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.680
things like that quote. After she left the police station,

521
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.240
he still followed her around town in his cruiser.

522
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:41.880
That's pretty creepy.

523
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:46.119
That's very creepy. Yeah. David met Michelle Voyle's at gas

524
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.680
and stuff. He made a point of telling her that

525
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.519
she was cute. He didn't remember at the time, but

526
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.079
he'd pulled her over seven years earlier, when she was

527
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:56.880
a high school student. He offered her a ride in

528
00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.920
his cruiser, which she excitedly accepted. They made small talk

529
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.559
as they drove through town. She asked if he was married. No,

530
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.519
he said, and wiggled his ringless finger at her. David

531
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:10.759
called her three weeks later and asked her to meet

532
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.920
him that night in a church parking lot at eleven pm.

533
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.359
He drove her to a rest area where they had

534
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.680
sex on a blanket. They met frequently after that, a

535
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.640
few times a week for the next six months. When

536
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.279
someone gave Michelle a head's up that David was married,

537
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:29.119
she broke things off. While seeing Michelle, David was also

538
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.920
seeing a real estate agent named Lisa Corfage. He met

539
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.400
her when he pulled her over for expired tags and

540
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.920
ordered her out of the car to check her out

541
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.359
fully We're assuming. He wrote her phone number down and

542
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.200
let her go. Lisa was engaged to a firefighter. She

543
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:50.400
began getting weird phone calls, sometimes collect Once the caller said, quote,

544
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:53.720
I'll see you Monday. Another call said I have a

545
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:57.480
surprise for you on Monday. You'll see my dick. When

546
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:01.279
Lisa contacted the phone company, she was told the car untraceable.

547
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.160
She lived alone with her one year old baby, so

548
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.839
the calls rattled her. Lisa's fiance told her to call

549
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.000
the police. Within a few minutes, a state trooper arrived

550
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:11.920
to take a report.

551
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:13.359
Guess who showed up.

552
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:17.160
I'm going to guess David. Lisa later said, quote, I

553
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.720
was hysterical, crying and very nervous. He was very comforting

554
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.200
and told me to calm down. Unquote. David offered to

555
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.799
stay with her, but she declined the offer and wanted

556
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.720
to spend the night with a friend. David told her

557
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:31.920
to call him the next time she received a call.

558
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.759
She did receive another call, She recorded it and called

559
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.960
David to hand over the recording. He rushed over and

560
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.359
met Lisa's fiance while he was there. The two men

561
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.119
became friends, and David and Kim began socializing with Lisa

562
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:51.400
and her fiance. Awkward. Because David was a police officer,

563
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:54.880
it was easy for him to find out Lisa's fiance's schedule.

564
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.440
He was a fireman. Is that why David knew his schedule?

565
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.119
Because they both worked for the Okay getcha? One night,

566
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.240
when David knew that he was working, he went to

567
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.319
Lisa's and asked if he could kiss her. She said yes.

568
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.839
They had a brief fling, but Lisa ended it. The

569
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:15.480
two couples remained friendly. Lisa married her firefighter, but David

570
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.680
would still flirt with her and proposition her. She was

571
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:22.240
firm that it would never happen again. But David never

572
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:25.079
had a shortage of women in his lineup. He began

573
00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:27.599
to flirt with a dispatcher named beth Anne, who was

574
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:30.599
going through a divorce. He showed up at her apartment

575
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.599
one night and sat on the couch next to her.

576
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.599
Beth Anne felt uncomfortable that he'd showed up without an invitation.

577
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.160
How did he even know where she lived? David touched

578
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.160
her breasts and then pinned her down and kissed her aggressively.

579
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:47.079
She found herself fighting him off, punching and kicking him.

580
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:52.000
David abruptly left. Beth Anne was soon transferred to another department.

581
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:54.759
On one of her last days working with David, he

582
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:57.720
again cornered her and assaulted her by touching her breasts

583
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:01.640
and kissing her. He said it was his goodbye kiss.

584
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.440
You get the picture. There are way too many women

585
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.839
to mention here, but David cam abused his power, took

586
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.559
what he wanted, and didn't give the feelings of these women,

587
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.240
his wife, his children, or even his mother or sister

588
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:16.759
a second thought. He was an aggressive predator with an

589
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.440
inflated ego. With the rise of the Internet, America, online

590
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.240
and chat rooms, a whole new world was opened up

591
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:23.759
for David.

592
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:25.759
Oh boy, the whole new world open up for a

593
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:27.039
lot of people around that time.

594
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, oh, what do you think so far of David?

595
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.160
I think he's pretty creepy. I mean, I don't know

596
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:36.440
men who abuse their power in a position like that.

597
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.519
It's just not not good.

598
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:49.359
No, we'll be back after a break. Before we jump

599
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:51.400
back into the case, I just wanted to mention we

600
00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:53.839
have had a lovely fall so far, but we're in

601
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.039
that awkward stage of fall where it's forty degrees when

602
00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.359
you wake up and it's freezing. Yeah, and then by

603
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.160
this time of you know, it gets hot. And you

604
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:05.720
were wearing your Michigan sweatshirt right because it is Saturday

605
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.559
is game day here when we're recording, and you took

606
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.000
it off and underneath you had another you had multi

607
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:13.839
layers of Michigan apparel.

608
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.839
Yes, of course, do you know what I have underneath

609
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:18.960
the T shirt? Michigan.

610
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.440
You've changed your chat Well, not that you painted it right.

611
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.720
Game day. Yeah, I hope you shape just first. David

612
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.880
cam once suggested that he wasn't the high caliber officer

613
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.000
that others thought he was. He had received promotions and

614
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:38.440
commendations and had the respect of his fellow officers, but

615
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.200
he knew that he played fast and loose with the rules.

616
00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:46.319
His womanizing was unprofessional and reprehensible. His superiors were beginning

617
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:49.839
to catch wind of his behavior. In nineteen ninety nine,

618
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.440
in his tenth year as an Indiana State trooper, David

619
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.880
was involved in a high speed chase with a nineteen

620
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.319
year old man. When the driver eventually pulled over, the

621
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:02.000
officers wrapped him out of the car, threw him to

622
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:05.640
the ground, and brutally beat him. David's cruiser was equipped

623
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.880
with a dashboard camera and caught it all on videotape.

624
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.920
The young man sued David and the other two officers.

625
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:14.480
The local news station got a hold of the video

626
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.559
and played it on a loop for days and weeks

627
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:20.440
to follow. The video actually cleared David. He hadn't touched

628
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.000
the kid, but the damage was done to his reputation

629
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.440
and he was associated with the beating. The other two

630
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:30.799
officers were suspended without pay. David felt that the Indiana

631
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.960
State Police leadership hadn't defended him enough during the lawsuit.

632
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.440
He harbored a grudge and developed a bad attitude at work.

633
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.960
When he was reassigned to security detail for a riverboat

634
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:45.119
casino as punishment for his part in the beating, David

635
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.400
became even more frustrated. His assignments as a trooper became

636
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.480
less rewarding and more routine. It might have been a

637
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:56.000
performance issue, his constant affairs, or being involved in the

638
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.920
beating of the young man, but David's shine had worn

639
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.680
off with the Indiana's State Police, and he knew he

640
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.400
wasn't likely to gain their favor anytime soon. There was

641
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:07.960
no way he was going to be promoted to detective.

642
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:12.320
He'd recently interviewed for a detective position and lost out

643
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:16.000
to a colleague with a college degree. When things weren't

644
00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:19.800
going well for him, his behavior grew reckless. After a

645
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.079
night of heavy drinking, he had sex with a trooper

646
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.800
friend's wife in the back seat of Kim's Ford Bronco

647
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:28.480
while a fellow officer drove them around so the woman's

648
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:29.679
husband wouldn't find out.

649
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.440
Oh good Lord, that disgusting yeah.

650
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.639
Meanwhile, Kim was busy holding their family together, working full

651
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.920
time raising Brad and Jill, shuffling them from school to

652
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.800
their activities, and volunteering at church. She stayed up hours

653
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.400
after the children went to bed, cleaning, doing laundry, and

654
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:48.840
ironing David's uniforms with the sharp creases he liked. Kim

655
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:51.119
grew tired of the constant grind and told David she

656
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:53.119
wanted to stop working and be a stay at home

657
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:55.400
mom for a while. She was hoping to have one

658
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:59.480
more child. David's uncle, Sam Lockhart, offered him a job

659
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.400
as a part time salesperson at one of his growing companies,

660
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:08.480
UDI United Dynamics Incorporated. Sam employed about forty people at

661
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:13.159
his two businesses, UDI and Permadry Incorporated or PDI, which

662
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.880
repaired foundations and did water proofing work. David helped his

663
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.119
uncle develop a new gutter guard system that was boosting

664
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:23.519
sales for UDI. He was a natural salesman and soon

665
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.360
decided to leave the Indiana State Police to devote himself

666
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:30.679
full time to UDI. He turned in his gun, badge

667
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.599
and cruiser for a fresh start. He inquired about purchasing

668
00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:38.199
his service weapon, a thirty eight revolver, but decided not

669
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:41.760
to because they didn't offer him a discount. I don't

670
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.679
think they had a gun in their home. When David left,

671
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.519
he agreed to sign on as a reserve officer. David's

672
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.039
new job affected his social life.

673
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.400
You know what I mean, No badge bunnies for Udi.

674
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:59.119
Well, he didn't have a badge anymore. David started hanging

675
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.239
out at a strip club in his spare time. Around

676
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.559
this time, David went to his doctor, who prescribed him

677
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:10.519
viagra for a problem that David called temporary. David's uncle

678
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:13.920
made him manager of the waterproofing division at UDI. He

679
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:17.280
enjoyed his new job and regular schedule. UDI was doing

680
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:20.239
so well that Uncle Sam gave David a company van

681
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.880
and they drew up plans to build a new office.

682
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.360
He put David in charge of finding new land. Because

683
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.199
David made his own schedule at UDI, he often took

684
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.199
Fridays off to golf with friends. He was soon earning

685
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.920
double his old salary. Whenever he saw his old trooper friends,

686
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.199
he'd brag about how much money he made. Kim was

687
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:41.239
happy because they were now on track for her to

688
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.880
quit her job, and David was able to help more

689
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.119
with the kids, they talked about having one more baby.

690
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:49.920
On the nights he wasn't out, he'd bathe them and

691
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.639
put them to bed. Some nights, while Kim was still

692
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:55.760
up cleaning, she'd find Brad and Jill in bed with David,

693
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:58.880
and she'd go sleep in one of their beds. In

694
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:01.960
May two thousand, noticed that Jill's vaginal area looked red

695
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.519
and tender. Kim had her mother Janie, look at it,

696
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.519
and she said it looked like diaper rash. Jill was

697
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.639
five at this time and long out of diapers. Weeks later,

698
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.519
Jill began crying at Dan's class, holding her crotch, saying

699
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:16.320
it hurt. For the next several months, Jill would complain

700
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.119
about her vaginal area being sore.

701
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:21.800
That seems concerning. Did they take her to the doctor?

702
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.280
I really don't know. I did a lot of research

703
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:26.519
on this case. The book that I read is where

704
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:29.760
I got that information from. I didn't see it mentioned

705
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:30.400
anywhere else.

706
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.480
Okay.

707
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:33.920
In the spring and summer of two thousand, Kim seemed

708
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.920
more tired than usual. Janis said that she could tell

709
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.719
that something was weighing heavily on her daughter, but she

710
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:44.039
didn't confide in her, she began having migraines and stomach problems.

711
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.400
Remember back in the beginning we were talking about when

712
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.880
Kim was in her teenage years, she was often reticented

713
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.480
and didn't tell her mom what.

714
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:53.639
Was bud at her right.

715
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.039
Marcy McLoyd, Kim's best friend, who lived in Florida, said

716
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.239
that Kim was depressed. She'd never heard her sound so sad.

717
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:03.480
After much prodding by Marcy about what was bothering her,

718
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.360
Kim said, history is repeating itself.

719
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.440
I'm assuming that means something about David having affairs again.

720
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.840
Well, we don't know because she didn't elaborate with Marcy

721
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.360
on it. She told Marcy, we'll talk about it when

722
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:19.320
I come visit, okay. Kim had promised to come to

723
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:21.719
Florida with Brad and Jil for months, but kept pushing

724
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.800
it off. Finally, in September, Kim told Marcy that she

725
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:26.920
would take the kids out of school soon and come

726
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:30.840
for a visit. David's life insurance policy with UDI wasn't

727
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.920
as good as his previous policy as a state trooper.

728
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:37.719
Daniel cam David's younger brother, advised him and Kim to

729
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:41.199
increase their coverage. The new policy covered Kim for one

730
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:44.480
hundred fifty thousand dollars, plus ten thousand dollars for each

731
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:47.440
child and three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for David

732
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:50.840
and the months to come. This would be greatly scrutinized,

733
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.079
but Kim handled the financial matters for the family and

734
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.119
David wasn't even aware of the changes.

735
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.800
On September twenty eighth, two thousand, at about nine thirty

736
00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:03.199
p all available units were ordered to the Cam's house

737
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:06.559
on Lockhart Road. David ran across the road to get

738
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.519
his uncle Nelson, who was staying with David's frail ninety

739
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.360
two year old grandfather Amos that night. Nelson was also

740
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:17.079
a retired state trooper. David tore open the back door

741
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:20.360
and yelled, quote, Nelson, come quick, someone killed my family.

742
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.880
They're all dead unquote. Nelson ran across the road barefoot

743
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:27.920
and was shocked at the bloody scene. He checked all

744
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:31.880
three family members for a pulse and found nun Kim, Brad,

745
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:36.239
and Jill were all inconceivably gone. Nelson told David they

746
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.000
needed to preserve the scene and wait outside. David called

747
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:42.800
his older brother Donnie. He yelled into the phone and

748
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.000
told him that his family was dead and he needed

749
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.159
to come right away. David did not call any of

750
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.480
Kim's relatives. Word traveled fast through the tight knit family,

751
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.199
and soon Uncle Sam and his son arrived. Sam drove

752
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.920
as fast as he could to get there. He arrived

753
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:00.880
at the same time as the Tree troopers at nine

754
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.199
forty two, about fifteen minutes after David called them. David

755
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:09.400
was doubled over, crying and screaming when they pulled up. Quote,

756
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:11.760
it was a scream that I've never heard before and

757
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:15.320
I've never heard since. All I heard was David screaming,

758
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.559
and I heard sirens. As officers were responding to the call.

759
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.000
David was hitting the back of his tailgate, that's where

760
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:24.519
he was at. Then he went down on his knees

761
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:28.800
and just laid down on the ground and started wailing unquote.

762
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:31.679
The officers first swept the house looking for the murderer.

763
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.960
They found no signs of forced entry. Although no one

764
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.079
who lived on Lockhart Road locked their doors so family

765
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.440
members could come and go as they pleased, nothing was

766
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:43.960
out of order in the house to indicate an intruder.

767
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:47.320
Police checked on the other relatives who lived on Lockhart

768
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.480
Road in case there was some kind of massacre in

769
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:53.960
the family. Everyone else was safe. More troopers arrived at

770
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:57.840
the scene, as did David's father and other stunned family members.

771
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:03.079
David alternated between tears and rage. He answered questions, but

772
00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:06.480
he wasn't officially interviewed until nearly midnight, when he was

773
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:10.880
taken into the Sellersburg State Police Station, David's former post.

774
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.039
He yelled at all of the troopers and demanded that

775
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.920
this investigation be done right. Because David was a former

776
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:22.159
state trooper. Extra CSI troopers and security were assigned to

777
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:26.719
the case. Trooper Shelley Romero, who David had been romantically

778
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:30.679
intertwined with years earlier, rushed to the scene. She asked

779
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:32.719
David if the murders could be the work of a

780
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.719
scorned lover, she said. He looked her straight in the

781
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.880
eyes and said, quote, no, Shelley, that's the one good

782
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.840
thing about all this. I haven't been seeing anybody. Things

783
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:46.039
have been going great. Ut David didn't want to leave

784
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:48.840
the crime scene until the bodies of his family were taken,

785
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:52.119
but the troopers insisted he'd be interviewed while details were

786
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.840
still fresh in his mind. The troopers reminded David that

787
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.440
their first priority was to clear him of the murders

788
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.880
so they could find the real kill. However, even in

789
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.800
the early investigation, David was the prime suspect, and many

790
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:08.079
of his old friends had already made up their minds

791
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.599
that he was guilty. Their experience told them when the

792
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:14.519
husband or father is the sole survivor of a massacre,

793
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:19.159
he is most likely the perpetrator. Detectives Mickey Neil and

794
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.679
Darryl Gibson, both good friends of David's, interviewed him at

795
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:28.119
the Sellersburg State Police Office. All parties felt uncomfortable. Donny

796
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:30.679
cam brought his brother a fresh set of clothes so

797
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:32.760
that David could hand over the clothes he had been

798
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.840
wearing to be analyzed. The interview began at twelve twenty one.

799
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:41.519
There's audio of the interview, but no video. We've got

800
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:45.280
some problems with things where they are, and that's why.

801
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.119
You know roughtenor give the opportunity for more owners would

802
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:57.119
be owners, cannot be lead, cannot be leaves.

803
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.079
What do you mean peopley boy, you are going to

804
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:06.079
try to blame me for killing my children in my

805
00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:09.440
daughter tried to clean some of the blood up. Something

806
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:11.840
like that. No no, no, it's ridiculous.

807
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.000
What about some bell each day?

808
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:23.239
No no, no, no, no, no no no, I'm not

809
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:23.840
your name.

810
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:27.760
We're gonna be through on this, David. Something else comes

811
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:32.480
up post to somebody else, I guarandamnt you. We're gonna

812
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:36.960
look there. But the fact is there is we collected

813
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:39.440
right now at this point we to you.

814
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:43.400
So he knew right away that they were looking at

815
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:45.159
him for this when he's a police officer.

816
00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:47.760
So yeah, he knows that he's the prime suspect.

817
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:50.400
It's interesting that I don't know what the alternative would

818
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.079
have been, But was there any discussion about bringing in

819
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:56.920
a different police force or different investigators.

820
00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:59.079
Yeah, it is weird that they chose. You know, the

821
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.039
sellers were post where he had previously worked, but that's

822
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.199
who he'd called, So I don't know if that was

823
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.159
the chain of command, like they had to go to that. Yeah,

824
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.639
but the New Albany police were also there. Okay, but

825
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:12.880
that interview must have been just so awkward.

826
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.760
Yeah, I'm sure David talked about how he wasn't sure

827
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:20.039
he could go on without his family. Quote, what kind

828
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.519
of god puts a human being through so much? What

829
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.079
lesson is he trying to teach me. I'm a little

830
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:27.360
angry with God because I swear to you, if I

831
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.440
killed myself, I will probably end up in hell. That's

832
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:33.159
the only thing that's keeping me from doing it. Unquote,

833
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:37.960
Detective Mickey Neil said, quote, Satan lives on this planet.

834
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:41.079
He's very strong, and that's my belief. It's not because

835
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:44.559
God's testing, It's because Satan is alive. And well, my

836
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:47.159
suggestion to you, David is that you talk to God.

837
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.320
You pray a lot, you ask for strength, but you've

838
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.760
got to lean on God. You've got to lean on Christ. Quote.

839
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.199
When the interview shifted to talk of David's extramarital affairs,

840
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:02.880
the recording was stopped. H that's interesting. He agreed to

841
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:05.840
take a lie detector test, but one was never administered.

842
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.159
David left the station at about two am and spent

843
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:11.760
the night at his parents' house while the Indiana State

844
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:15.000
Troopers searched the Cam house for any shred of evidence.

845
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:18.760
Although none of the Cams slept much, they were all

846
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:23.159
shocked and saddened. Susie Cam, David's mom was so hysterical

847
00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:26.000
a doctor called in a sedative for her. The whole

848
00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:30.199
family took one. Over the next three days, fifty troopers

849
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.679
were tasked with finding the murder weapon. They searched every

850
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:36.360
square inch of the Cam's house and property, including the

851
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.280
septic tank. A back hoe was brought in to dig

852
00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:42.280
up the yard. However, no one searched any of the

853
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:46.199
other homes on Lockhart Road, including Amos Lockhart's house across

854
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:46.639
the road.

855
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:51.119
Remember, after David found his family, he ran across the

856
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.440
road to his grandfather's house, so it's possible he could

857
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.800
have stashed something there. Right.

858
00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.679
David agreed to provide a suspect kit to the investigation,

859
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:01.880
but when he arrived at the hospital, he was.

860
00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:07.000
Belligerent a suspect, kid, is your hair and your DNA

861
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:09.559
and blood, blood, all that.

862
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.840
Stuff, okay. Instead of putting on a gown and using

863
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.400
a sheet to cover his nudity, he told the nurse,

864
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:17.880
who was an acquaintance, I'm going to let it all

865
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:21.639
hang out. The nurse retrieved the samples, but David made

866
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:25.480
her very uncomfortable. He had another tense moment days later

867
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:27.760
when he stopped by his house with his uncle Sam

868
00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:29.960
to get clothing for Kim and the children to be

869
00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:33.960
buried in and pictures for the funeral. The troopers, most

870
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.039
of them his old friends, refused him entry into his house.

871
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.840
It was still an active crime scene. They told him

872
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:44.000
he yelled, body checked an officer, kicked and threw things.

873
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:49.039
His behavior wasn't helping his case. The already suspicious troopers,

874
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:53.000
who had once considered David a close friend, distanced themselves

875
00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:56.400
from him. In the days that followed, he frequently called

876
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:59.880
the station for updates on the investigation. Everyone was told

877
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:03.960
to record any interaction with David cam As.

878
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:06.159
The sun rose the morning after the murderers, friends, co

879
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:09.880
workers and residents awoke to the tragic news. The media

880
00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.119
had already began reporting on the story. The principal at

881
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:17.360
Brand and Kim's school, Graceland Christian School, personally called all

882
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:20.559
the families in their classrooms and told them to keep

883
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:23.960
their students home that day. When the children returned to

884
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.800
school on Monday, counselors were there to help them process

885
00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:30.599
their grief. Hours after her death, David called Kim's employer

886
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.239
to tell them about her death. He told them to

887
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:37.119
secure her desk, computer and voicemail for any potential evidence.

888
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.000
He said he'd call back soon to discuss her life

889
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:43.800
insurance and benefits. They were valued at over six hundred

890
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:47.000
and eighty thousand dollars or one point two million dollars today.

891
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:50.480
After David and his sister Julie made funeral arrangements, they

892
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:54.480
drove to see Kim's parents, Janis and Frank. David sobbed

893
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.480
with them for an hour. Then they still believed in

894
00:47:57.559 --> 00:48:01.559
his innocence. In the days following the murders, David refused

895
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.599
to shower, shave, or change his clothes. He refused to

896
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.880
eat and barely slept. The autopsies were performed less than

897
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:11.480
twenty four hours after their deaths, and was obvious that

898
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.880
Kim had fought against her attacker. She had defensive wounds

899
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:20.360
twenty two in total, scratches, abrasions, and bruising on her neck, chin,

900
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:25.280
right elbow, and left knee. Strangely, Kim's feet and toes

901
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:28.480
were bruised. Put a pin in that. We we'll get

902
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.079
back to that later. There was dirt and DNA under

903
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:34.920
her fingernails, and one nail of her right hand was

904
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:38.440
ripped off. She had a white powdery substance in her

905
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.639
pubic region. A single gunshot wound to the head killed Kim.

906
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:46.199
The bullet entered her head above her left ear and

907
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.360
tore through her skull and brain. It had a downward

908
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.440
trajectory and exited the right side of her head behind

909
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:56.280
her ear, and then struck and splintered the windshield. Kim

910
00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:59.280
was likely brain dead within seconds, but her heart continued

911
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.000
to pump up the through her body for several more minutes,

912
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:05.320
which caused the trail of blood found on the garage floor.

913
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:08.800
There was no evidence of a sexual assault, despite her

914
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.719
pants being removed. A bullet entered seven year old Brad's

915
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.519
left shoulder, ripped through his clavicle, first rib, and spinal cords,

916
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:19.760
severing it. The bullet exited through his back near his

917
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.880
right shoulder blade. He had several points of stippling on

918
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:26.159
his face, indicating that he was shot from no more

919
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:28.880
than two feet away. Brad's cause of death was due

920
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:32.960
to the blood loss from internal injuries. Jill five was

921
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:36.159
also shot at close range. The bullet entered her skull

922
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.400
from behind her ear on the right side of her head.

923
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.880
The bullet passed through her brain and exited behind her

924
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.360
left ear. The stippling marks on Jill were more pronounced

925
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.840
than on Brad, indicating that she was shot at even

926
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:51.519
closer range. The pathologist noted that Jill had blood in

927
00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:54.679
her underwear and that she had blunt force trauma to

928
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:59.360
her genitalia and several abrasions consistent with sexual abuse. Her

929
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.800
hymend room made intact and there was no evidence of seamen.

930
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:08.199
The doctor also observed patichiel hemorrhaging on Jill's upper chest, arms,

931
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:12.159
and face, as if she'd been held down. The pathologists

932
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.039
suggested that she may have been sexually abused twelve to

933
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:18.679
twenty four hours before her death, although the report never

934
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:22.559
explicitly said that she had been sexually abused, but that

935
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:27.440
her injuries were consistent with sexual abuse. The coroner estimated

936
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:29.559
that the cams had all been dead for about three

937
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:33.639
hours when their bodies were discovered. That's brutal.

938
00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:35.599
That is really brutal. It's hard to hear that.

939
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.280
By ten PM on the night of the murders, Floyd

940
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:42.360
County Prosecutor Stan Faith arrived at the crime scene to

941
00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:45.760
investigate and build his case. He'd already hired a crime

942
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:50.679
scene investigator and blood expert from Oregon, Rod Englert. Inklert

943
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:54.119
was it available, but he sent his assistant, Robert Steitz

944
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.079
Stites took the earliest flight possible to Indiana, a first

945
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:02.079
class flight on the county's die Engler, and Stites only

946
00:51:02.199 --> 00:51:06.280
traveled first class. When Stan Faith arrived at the camhouse,

947
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:09.400
he thought the crime scene looked too neat. Someone must

948
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.320
have cleaned it up. A mop and bucket were found

949
00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:14.800
in the mudroom, along with an open bottle of bleach.

950
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:17.760
There were some dried white spots in the garage floor

951
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.360
that investigators assumed to be spilled bleach. On the garage floor.

952
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:25.039
A breezeway connected the garage to the house and the

953
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:28.360
back deck. Steis saw dots of bleach on the decking

954
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.880
and assumed the cleaning fluid had been thrown over the deck.

955
00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:35.719
No tests were run to confirm the presence of bleach, however,

956
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.800
although David said he'd given Brad CPR, there were only

957
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:43.320
one and a half bloody footprints near his body. I

958
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.840
believe they were questioning whether or not David did CPR

959
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:50.199
on Brad, thinking that if he actually like there would

960
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:52.679
have been more bloody footprints around his body.

961
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:53.039
Yeah.

962
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.920
I would think so too, But David is a police

963
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:59.599
officer and was probably being very careful.

964
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:03.760
Oh you think he didn't want to disturb evidence that right, Okay.

965
00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:05.480
So he knew, you know, not to step in blood

966
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:06.039
and whatnot.

967
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:08.199
Okay, I guess I'm sort of operating on the assumption

968
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.480
that he did it. But if he didn't do it,

969
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:12.880
that would make perfect sense. If you're a police officer,

970
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.239
you would want to be very careful to preserve any

971
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:16.239
evidence did do it.

972
00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:21.360
Maybe he would have mopped up some of his footprints, right, okay.

973
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.239
David's aunt, Debbie, who lived on Lockhart Road, recalled hearing

974
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:29.920
three loud, banging noises around nine thirty pm. She did

975
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.440
not describe the noise as gunshots. Detectives, pressured by the prosecutor,

976
00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:37.320
tried to get her to say they were gunshots, but

977
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:39.800
she knew what gunshots sounded like. Her husband was a

978
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:43.360
police officer and they owned guns. Later, it was determined

979
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:46.599
that what Debbie heard was David's striking his truck and

980
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:50.320
anger and frustration after he found his slain family.

981
00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:53.599
Interesting, and you said that the autopsy determined that they

982
00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:57.760
had been dead for three hours, right, So, meaning that

983
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:01.840
the time of death was like earlier than six six thirty.

984
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:05.079
Well, it wasn't sick. We'll get to that later. It's

985
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:08.400
hard to know what time they were investigating this scene too.

986
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:11.599
Do they mean when they started investigating around ten?

987
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:13.000
Right, That's what I was wondering.

988
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.599
At the time of death was sevenish. There was a

989
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.159
small bullet hole in the windshield of the Bronco. Later

990
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.400
it would be identified as the same bullet that had

991
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:27.239
exited Kim's head. Only three very efficient gunshots had been fired,

992
00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:32.239
and remember David is a very good shot, right Steit's

993
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.079
noted blood on the overhead garage door, which later turned

994
00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.719
out to be motor oil. He misidentified several spots around

995
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:41.760
the house as blood on a jacket, a shower curtain,

996
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.480
and sighting, among others, Kim's shoes. A pair of low

997
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.039
heeled loafers were placed neatly on the roof of her Bronco.

998
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.920
Blood spattered from the head travels a maximum of four

999
00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:56.280
feet when hit with a thirty eight caliber bullet. From

1000
00:53:56.320 --> 00:53:58.679
the chamber of the gun to its target, a bullet

1001
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:02.440
travels six hundred eighty two miles per hour, and when

1002
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:06.320
it penetrates a human skull, the result is high velocity

1003
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.760
blood spatter. The blood is in such a fine miss

1004
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:12.000
that it can be hard to see with a human eye,

1005
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:15.639
and It can be a good investigative tool because the

1006
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:18.880
suspect may not even know that they are covered with

1007
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:23.400
the distinctive cast off. Robert Stits examined David's clothing from

1008
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:25.840
the night of the murders, a pair of shorts and

1009
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:30.239
old trooper T shirt, socks, and converse sneakers. The shorts

1010
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:33.320
were clean, one sock had a few spots of blood.

1011
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:35.800
There were traces of blood on one of the shoes,

1012
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.920
and eight small spots of blood grouped together on the

1013
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.920
bottom left of the T shirt. The blood was Jill's.

1014
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:48.119
Traces of gunshot residue were also found on David's T shirt, shorts,

1015
00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:51.239
and socks. Stites believe the blood on the T shirt

1016
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:55.400
was high velocity blood spatter, meaning that David must have

1017
00:54:55.519 --> 00:54:59.360
been the shooter that killed Jill. There were many, many

1018
00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:03.159
more stains on David's T shirt. They were just focusing

1019
00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:06.639
on this small area because they thought that the high

1020
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:08.960
velocity blood spatter was very telling.

1021
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:11.719
Okay, there were many more stains that were blood stains

1022
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:12.960
or other kind of stains.

1023
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:15.719
Yeah, blood stains. He's picking up bread and he's trying

1024
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:17.480
to give him CPR, and so I.

1025
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.360
Would imagine it would be hard to distinguish between just

1026
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:24.760
regular bloodstains from him handling the bodies of his family

1027
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.159
members versus kind of the spatter. But they were saying

1028
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.320
that they thought these were the result of spatter, not

1029
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:33.800
him handling their bodies exactly okay.

1030
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:38.000
Later, speaking about high velocity blood spatter to forty eight hours,

1031
00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:41.920
Ridingler said, quote, this is so unique and so separate

1032
00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:45.559
from other stains that one can say with confidence that

1033
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:48.880
this is from high velocity missed and that the person

1034
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.000
that got this on them would be in close proximity

1035
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.880
within four feet of the shots when they were fired.

1036
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:59.119
End quote. All this to say that they really thought

1037
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.960
they had David cam This was hard evidence that proved

1038
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:04.079
that he was the shooter.

1039
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.079
Sounds like they do to me so far.

1040
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:09.480
The officers at the scene didn't think that Stuites knew

1041
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:12.079
what he was doing. At one point they told him

1042
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:15.159
to get lost. Years later, it would be revealed that

1043
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:18.159
this was his first active crime scene he had visited,

1044
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:22.039
and he had no formal education in blood science. He

1045
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:25.920
was actually a crime scene photographer and assistant to Rod Engler,

1046
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:30.280
not an actual blood stain analyst, but that didn't stop

1047
00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:32.960
from from staining his opinions in fact and changing the

1048
00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:38.199
trajectory of the investigation. A gray Haines sweatshirt was found

1049
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:41.880
at the crime scene near Brad's body. The word backbone

1050
00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:45.400
handwritten with a sherpie and all capitals on the inside

1051
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.000
of the collar. An investigator with a keen eye thought

1052
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:52.519
that it was a prison issued sweatshirt. David said it

1053
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:54.760
wasn't his, but some people who had been at the

1054
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:58.880
basketball game said they'd seen him wearing a sweatshirt. The

1055
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:03.239
state ignored the sweat as significant evidence. In fact, it

1056
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:05.159
wouldn't be tested for years.

1057
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.199
Wow, and it was found you said, near Brad's.

1058
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:10.360
Bodies, either under his body or near his body.

1059
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:10.679
Really.

1060
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:14.519
An unknown palm print was found on the exterior of

1061
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:18.119
Kim's bronco. It was dismissed as evidence because she parked

1062
00:57:18.119 --> 00:57:20.559
in a public lot at work and it was assumed

1063
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.519
not to be linked to the crime. During the search

1064
00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:26.920
of the camp home, investigators discovered that David had ordered

1065
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:31.360
his unused MP five submachine gun ammunition from his times

1066
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.719
a SWAT officer in his basement. Also in the basement

1067
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.960
were dozens of tickets that he had written and then.

1068
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:42.000
Not issued for Oh interesting, Yeah.

1069
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:45.639
Trooper Shelly Romero called David a few times in the

1070
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:48.119
days after the murders to check up on him. He

1071
00:57:48.280 --> 00:57:50.719
wept her over the phone, and she thought at times

1072
00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.960
he sounded suicidal. He told her that he had nothing

1073
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:56.280
to wear to the funeral because he wasn't allowed back

1074
00:57:56.320 --> 00:57:58.639
into his house to get a suit, and he didn't

1075
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:01.719
have his wallet to buy anything. She offered to take

1076
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:05.800
him shopping. The next day, when talking to investigators, he

1077
00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.119
mentioned to them that they should look into Shelley as

1078
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:11.679
a possible suspect. He also mentioned that they should look

1079
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:14.880
into a couple of Mexicans that he worked with. So

1080
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:18.079
David is I mean, he's lost his family and we

1081
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:19.920
can feel bad for him. He's still kind of a

1082
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:22.760
dirt bag, seems like it. Days after the murders, the

1083
00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:26.119
Lockhart family gave a press conference at the Georgetown Community Church,

1084
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.679
the church founded by Amos Lockhart, David's grandfather. About a

1085
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:35.159
dozen family members were there. Noticeably absent was David. The

1086
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:37.719
media swarmed David as he left church for an interview

1087
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:40.400
days after the murders. He choked back tears and said,

1088
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:43.320
I want my family back, I want my babies back,

1089
00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:45.960
and my wife but that doesn't look like it's going

1090
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:49.599
to happen. There is no rational explanation for this. I

1091
00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:51.639
don't know if it was a personal attack on me

1092
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:54.199
or meant to be a personal attack on my wife.

1093
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:57.719
But if they have any decency, any compassion in their

1094
00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:01.719
body at all, they'll turn themselves in. Turn yourself in.

1095
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:05.239
You can't live with a guilt. What you did was

1096
00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:10.880
such an irrational, ridiculous, ludicrous, demonstrative, satanic thing. You cannot

1097
00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:14.679
live with that guilt. Much to David's dismay, the old

1098
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:17.719
dashboard footage from the troopers beating the nineteen year old

1099
00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:23.400
male resurfaced and again circulated through the media. Well, my friend,

1100
00:59:23.559 --> 00:59:25.440
I think that's where we have to stop for today.

1101
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:27.760
Oh man, I am really intrigued by this one. This

1102
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.400
is an interesting story.

1103
00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:32.760
It is a very interesting. It's very sad, but it's

1104
00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:33.960
also very interesting.

1105
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:34.239
Yeah.

1106
00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:44.960
So I saw a funny article. Here's the headline. Ryan

1107
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:49.519
Seacrest reeling with regret after taking over Wheel of Fortune

1108
00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:54.519
from Pat Say Jack, it's a dumpster fire of fan hatred.

1109
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:58.440
Oh boy, that's tough. That is tough. I feel bad

1110
00:59:58.440 --> 00:59:59.840
for him. I think that happens to a lot of

1111
01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:02.760
game show hosts that step into someone else's shoes.

1112
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.199
He'd ken Jennings is struggling too. Yeah.

1113
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:07.519
I think people, you know, they they like what they're

1114
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:10.719
used to and any change can be a little bit jarring.

1115
01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:13.000
And I don't know why. I know there are a

1116
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:14.960
lot of people out there who like Pat say Jack.

1117
01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:18.599
I don't know why, but you know, I can imagine

1118
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:20.159
you Sep say Jack.

1119
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:22.960
He seemed like a hostage there at the end. Yeah,

1120
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:26.000
he didn't seem to be enjoying his time there at all. Yeah,

1121
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:28.119
he just seemed really hard to be fresh when you

1122
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:30.760
do the exact same job for forty years or however

1123
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:31.400
long it was.

1124
01:00:31.719 --> 01:00:34.000
I know, once we get to forty years on our podcast,

1125
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:37.360
I'm sure we will also be grumpy and not not.

1126
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:41.840
Very probably be dead in forty years. But yeah, I

1127
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:43.719
love Mary kill from beyond the Grave.

1128
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:48.199
I hope Ryan Seacrest settles into the job and the

1129
01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:50.239
fans start to accept him.

1130
01:00:50.480 --> 01:00:53.880
Well, we were talking about this the other day, how uh,

1131
01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:56.719
we don't watch a lot of TV. We actually sometimes

1132
01:00:56.719 --> 01:00:59.239
after dinner though we will flip on. We don't flip on.

1133
01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:02.559
Weel a four and have haven't really had an appetite

1134
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:04.679
for that for a long time. No, well ever since

1135
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:07.639
they changed from like, you know, what's a common phrase

1136
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:11.280
that would be on Wheel of Fortune, be like life

1137
01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:15.559
is beautiful or whatever that's but now it's like wind water,

1138
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:16.880
windmills or something like that.

1139
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:17.480
Yeah, it.

1140
01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:23.239
Predictable. But sometimes we do watch Family Feud and we

1141
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:25.320
were in a long Jeopardy streak there.

1142
01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:27.079
Yeah, we haven't watched that in quite a while.

1143
01:01:27.079 --> 01:01:29.599
But but now we just kind of after dinner, we

1144
01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:33.199
usually just go work on our our work. But my

1145
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:36.800
point was, we don't really watch network television very much,

1146
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:40.800
so I'm curious, like, are you guys watching network television?

1147
01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:44.440
Like I think a lot of people are watching that's

1148
01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:47.400
like streaming, right, or you know a lot of people

1149
01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:48.840
watch YouTube and things like that.

1150
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:51.559
Yeah, even while we're just talking about we see a

1151
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:55.039
commercial for a sitcom or whatever, who watches these shows? Like,

1152
01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:58.480
because we never watch anything on network TV or very rare.

1153
01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:01.159
You haven't in a really long time. Yeah, we have

1154
01:02:01.599 --> 01:02:06.039
the news on sometimes, but even that's not that common

1155
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:08.440
for us, right, So it's just kind of wild to

1156
01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:10.400
think about who is still watching network TV. And I

1157
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:13.360
bet the average age is probably fifty or older.

1158
01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:16.639
Yeah, probably things have changed a lot in the world

1159
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:20.079
of media in the last twenty years or even less.

1160
01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:22.920
Well, I'm not a huge Ryan Seacrest fan. I don't

1161
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:26.119
really think he needed another job. No, I hope he

1162
01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:26.880
figures it out.

1163
01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:29.920
What are Ryan Seacrest's other job? I don't really keep

1164
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.119
up with his LinkedIn?

1165
01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:35.000
I mean, I don't really either. He was with Kelly

1166
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:38.880
Rippa on her morning show, but I think he left

1167
01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:41.440
that and her husband took over for him. He's an

1168
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:45.400
executive producer on a ton of stuff, and he's got

1169
01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:50.960
Ryan Seacrest's New Year's rockety And I don't know why

1170
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:55.159
we're talking about Ryan Seacrest just so long. But I

1171
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:58.800
don't know American idol oh, I don't know he's I

1172
01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:00.079
guess he has time now that he's.

1173
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:02.400
Well a fortune. Probably takes one one day a week.

1174
01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:04.280
They probably should talk a lot about Yeah, how it's

1175
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:06.280
not a ton of work. Yeah, okay, I'm sorry that

1176
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:08.639
was a really boring conversation. You were going to mention

1177
01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.320
some some fact about woodpeckers that you saw today.

1178
01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:16.039
That's a great, great, great, Yeah, so I read it. Really.

1179
01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:19.159
I love birds, as you know, we all love birds.

1180
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.280
Who doesn't love birds, But no, I read a really

1181
01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:21.880
interesting factor.

1182
01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:24.719
A lot of people don't love birds. Just to clarify,

1183
01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:27.119
a lot of people really are petrified of birds. I

1184
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:28.320
like words from a distance.

1185
01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:31.400
Yeah yeah, same here. I'm actually petrified of birds when

1186
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.599
they're too close up. But I read a really interesting

1187
01:03:33.639 --> 01:03:36.480
facts the woodpeckers. You know, they bang their head against

1188
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:39.840
like a tree or wood, like over and over again.

1189
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.719
But do you know why they are able to do

1190
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:47.960
that without getting brain their little tiny brains injured? No,

1191
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:50.480
tell us, Well, it's because so they have really really

1192
01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:53.400
long tongues, which makes sense because they got to, you know,

1193
01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:56.159
get their tongue into little tight crevices to get the

1194
01:03:56.239 --> 01:03:59.480
bugs that they eat. But what happens is when their

1195
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:03.400
tongue re tracks, it actually wraps around their brain like

1196
01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:06.119
they have like this, like their tongue goes back into

1197
01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:09.079
their head and it sort of wraps around their brain

1198
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:13.760
and it cushions their little tiny brain. I know, isn't

1199
01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:14.199
that crazy?

1200
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:16.320
That is really crazy? I thought it was one of

1201
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.880
the skull is an open cavity.

1202
01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:22.119
It's sort of like hollow inside like around their skull

1203
01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:25.440
and like the I don't know exactly, don't don't get

1204
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.679
me too far down into the details of this, because

1205
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:31.880
I can't. I haven't dissected a woodpecker myself, but god,

1206
01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:36.159
but yeah, it just sort of like goes around near

1207
01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:38.920
where their brain is and it cushions it. Well.

1208
01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:42.760
I'm sorry for those idiotic conversations, but we always try

1209
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:45.559
to leave you with like a little something that's maybe

1210
01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:48.440
something you can talk about with a friend. I didn't

1211
01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:51.239
know about that wood That lightens the mood a little bit.

1212
01:04:51.360 --> 01:04:54.119
After all that you can press your friends with that

1213
01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:55.360
woodpecker stat.

1214
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:56.960
I think the woodpecker is pretty good.

1215
01:04:57.039 --> 01:04:58.920
Yeah, just whip that out at a dinner party and

1216
01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:00.760
people will be like, you will be the life of

1217
01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:03.000
the party. I promise is.

1218
01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:06.880
You often are. Of course, I'm looking forward to telling

1219
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:08.840
you the rest of this case we have.

1220
01:05:09.079 --> 01:05:12.480
There's a lot to get too, I'm looking forward to

1221
01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:12.880
hearing it.

1222
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:13.880
Well.

1223
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:15.599
If you want to hear both parts of this case

1224
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:18.519
right now, you can go to patreon dot com slash

1225
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:21.840
love Mary Kill and become a subscriber five dollars a

1226
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:25.360
month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus

1227
01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:26.079
episode as well.

1228
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.519
We try not to self promote too much, but if

1229
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:32.840
you want early access, we usually get the episodes on

1230
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:37.119
Patreon forty eight hours early. Our goal is usually Saturday

1231
01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:39.480
by Saturday by two, and we usually meet that goal.

1232
01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:41.119
And I think the big thing too is if we

1233
01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:44.360
do multipart episodes, which we do fairly regularly because we

1234
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.519
do like to get into detail, both to or or

1235
01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:50.440
if it's a three part episode, they'll all be available right.

1236
01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:53.400
Away and usually Saturday at two, so not just a

1237
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:57.400
day early, but two days early, and no adds. Thank

1238
01:05:57.440 --> 01:05:59.639
you so much for listening until next time.

1239
01:06:00.039 --> 01:06:00.719
Don't kill your wife.

1240
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:01.599
Don't kill your husband.