Kim and David Camm - Part 2

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm doing good? Are you you came back for part two? I really you would. Excited about part two because I'm really intrigued by this case. Yeah, me too. It's a really good one. Yeah. We are recording this on October twentieth, but it will release on November fourth. We are a little ahead of the game.

0:45 Yes, which is good. It is good. Did you have any weird dreams last night? I don't know. I didn't. Why, Well, last night we went to the Terrified Forest, which was super fun. That was fun. We do that. We don't do it every year, but it's just. This haunted forest. We live really close to Hell, Michigan is h E L L Michigan, and it used to be in Hell, but they moved it to the next town over, so it's a little closer to us. But it's yeah, it's fun. It's just what it sounds like. You just take a walk through the forest and people randomly jump out at you with chainsaws and stuff like that. And the scary thing is every year, because there's multiple people chasing you with a chainsaw, we're always scared that someone you know, just happened.

1:29 I always think if you were a psycho killer, that would be the perfect place to go, right, because no one's gonna suspect. It, right. So it is really a terrifying experience. But then we came home and we watched a scary movie. We did a recommendation from one of our Yeah. It was it was. I thought that was pretty good. It was called Wrong Turn, and there's like six more. You know, I had never even heard of it, and there's a whole bunch of them, but it was. Yeah, it was very good. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Think Cindy for the recommendation. I know one of the reasons you returned was because I promised you are really good. You've been talking up this snack quite a bit, so I am. I hope my expectations aren't set too HART going to be pretty excited, Okay, I can't wait to see it. The unveiling. Oh, it's a it's a brownie.

2:11 It's a some type of brownie. Uh yeah, it's a Reese's brownie. Oh my goodness. Wow, it's like a homemade brownie. And then there's a layer of peanut butter frosting, a layer of chocolate frosting, and then some chopped up riese is on top. Man, this looks like my dream dessert. Right, that's what I thought. Okay, good, all right, Well let's take a quick break and you can try it. What did you think. Well, I'm just going to say, in the two years that we've been podcasting, that is probably the number one snack ever. Wow. It's like, oh, so good, so good. I'm so glad you liked it. It's kind of your sweetest Day gift because yesterday was. But yeah, I knew you would like them.

2:54 Yeah, just amazing. It's a recipe from Little Luna Reese's Brownies. We will put the link in show notes. But yeah, if you are a fan of chocolate and peanut butter together, you definitely need to make this recipe. Yeah, for sure, tenn out super decadent. But I would give it a ten out of ten too. They're really good. Yes, it's worth the extra effort because you have to kind of make a couple of different layers. But yeah, they're delicious, So glad you liked them. Would you like to give us a brief recap? I sure would. On September twenty eight, two thousand, David cam returned home from a night of playing basketball with friends to find his wife and two young children brutally murdered. Despite his tenure career as an Indiana State trooper, suspicion quickly fell upon him due in part to a botched investigation of the crime scene. David had a history of affairs and entanglements and abused his power as a state trooper, which maybe another reason that suspicion landed on him.

3:51 Yes, David was being shut out of the investigation and it was driving him crazy. He called old trooper friends to ask how it was going and if he would suspect, but everyone was tight lipped. On October first, two thousand, three days after the murders, David was interviewed by detectives Mickey Neil and Daryl Gibson for a second time at the Sellersburg State Police Post, where he'd once worked. He has read his rights at the beginning of the interview, as David had done hundreds of times before to other suspects. He was unaware that the detectives were sitting on a probable cause affidavit for his arrest, signed by a judge just that afternoon. Much of the affidavit would later be disproven or inaccurate, and will read it. In just a couple of minutes, the detectives allowed David to once again recount his version of events from the night of the murders.

4:41 They stopped him, turned off the camera, and told him that he was the only suspect and the evidence from the investigation supported him as the perpetrator. During the interview, David admitted he had been messaging a sixteen year old cheerleader in Florida, but he said he was just warning her not to talk to strangers on the internet. Okay, sure, David, are. You questioning his do gooder ship? There? I I am questioning it just a little bit. Yeah. David was questioned about a driver's license that was found in his house from a woman who lived in Kentucky. He said he'd taken it from a man he arrested. The woman was a stripper in Lexington. David said he was worried for her welfare and he had tried to track her down at strip clubs, but he'd never found her.

5:29 He really is a good samaritan. He's warning sixteen year old girls about talking to strangers on the internet. He's helping strippers out. What a guy. He's great. When the detectives questioned whether or not he'd given Brad CPR, David devolved into an emotional religious diatribe, quote, as God is my witness, I'm being persecuted. Jesus came to save us, you know, That's why he was here. And all people had to do was listen. And they're the ones that are persecuted. All they had to do was open themselves up, selves up and listen to his message. Mickey, persecute me, And if it's because I gave my son's CPR, then so be it. My wife and I never fought, We never argued. She loved me and I loved her, and we loved our children, and our children were perfect little angels.

6:16 What a bizarre response to a simple question about whether he had given his son CPR. Very strange. He asked to leave the station, but instead he was arrested and taken to the Floyd County jail, where he was placed on suicide watch. Later he was put in solitary confinement for his own protection against the other prisoners, because you know, as a state trooper, it can be dangerous. We're going to read the probable cause AFFI David, because it does become controversial in the years to come. Okay, and it is rather brief. I am a detective with the Indiana State Police. On the twenty eighth day of September two thousand, I was called to David R. Camp's residence at seventy five thirty four Lockhart Road, Georgetown, Floyd County, Inea, Indiana, where I found three people who had been shot Kimberly Caam thirty five, Bradley camhed seven, and Jillkam, age five.

7:11 The following evidence has been processed from the crime scene at the above mentioned address. One, the crime scene was manipulated by use of high pH cleaning substance. Two, the T shirt worn by David Rkam on the above mentioned date had high velocity blood mist, which occurs in the presence of gunshot at the time of the shooting. Three, the cleaning substance was thrown over the back deck of the above mentioned house, also leaving a trail from the garage area along with the transfer of blood on the house. Four A witness said that between nine fifteen and nine thirty PM, she heard three distinct sounds that can be interpreted as gunshots. Five jillcamh five had a recent tear in the vaginal area consistent with sexual intercourse. Six is a wet mop bucket and the utility room of the house of the above mentioned address with a strong odor of bleach. Seven witnesses playing basketball with David Rkam said that he left the game at or around nine p m.

8:13 And David Rkam told them that he was headed to his house the above mentioned crime scene. Eight there was a flow of blood from the garage that is inconsistent with the viscosity of blood and was aided in its flow by the presence of water and cleaning substance. Nine Kimberly Cam and Jilcam were killed by gunshot wounds to the head from a certain thirty eight caliber firearm. Ten Bradleykam was shot in the chest, which exited in Bradley's back, eventually killing Bradley Caam. The above mentioned information was gleaned from the statements of reports made to me by Tracy Corey Handy, MD, Dora Hunsacker, MD, both pathologists, and Robert Stite's crime scene reconstructionist. I made these statements not as a complete recital of all facts, but to establish probable cause, all of which gives me probable cause to believe that David Rkam has committed murder in Floyd County, State of Indiana, signed Sean clements. So this was all three days after the murders. It seems like it was very rushed and the investigation wasn't as complete as it could have been.

9:21 Yeah, usually they take their time on these things because they want to make sure they get. It right, especially being a police officer. Now we're going to read to the prosecutor's theory of what happened on the night of September twenty eighth. Floyd County prosecutor stand Faith alleged that David and Kim got into a heated argument after she accused him of a blasting. Five year old Jill Kim was shot above her left ear at point blank range as she was getting out of her Ford Bronco. The bullet shot from a thirty eight caliber gun passed through her brain and exited on the right side of her head. Microscopic droplets of blood spatter landed on David's shoes. Rad quickly unbuckled and do into the cargo area of the bronco, but David shot him through his left shoulder. The bullet tore through his shoulder and rib Jill was still in her car seat. She was shot on the right side of her forehead. The bullet went through her brain and exited near her left ear. Kim, Brad and Jill likely lived for several minutes before they died in the garage. The garage door was left open.

10:21 The front of David's Indiana State Trooper T shirt was covered in blood spatter. It was such a fine miss that it was hard to see with the naked eye. The shooting took only a few minutes, and he was able to return to the basketball game without anyone noticing that he'd left. Prosecutors claimed that he stashed the murder weapon somewhere between his house and the church. After the game, David returned home at nine to twenty five PM and staged and cleaned the scene. He removed Kim's pants to make it look like a sexual assault. He mopped up some of the blood using bleach. So their account is that David left the basketball game. Yeah, that's interesting because I remember from part one you said that nobody, nobody remembered him leaving. Right, People that he was with thought he was there the whole time.

11:04 Yeah, but eleven people there, would it. Have been possible that he could have left him he was sitting out. He did again, and he he lived exactly six minutes from the church. Okay, so that's twelve minutes. He's a good shot. He could have. He could have, but he would have had a time at exactly when Kim and the kids were get were they coming back? They were coming home, coming home from Brad's swim lesson, right, and it was I think a twenty minute drive from their house to the swim lesson, So you know he knew their schedule. Yeah. Yeah, But there were also white eyewitnesses there that said he never left, right, But the eyewitnesses were all, you know, friends and family. But he would have had to have been gone for at least probably fifteen minutes.

11:48 Right, he said, at a very minimum fifteen minutes. Yeah, And you know, he was a good shot, and you know, how long would it take to you know, shoot three bullets? Right? I am the clean up of the crime scene. And I we talked about this last episode. I don't understand the motive to clean up the crime scene. Yeah, why would anyone clean it doesn't It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And would he would have blood spatter on his clothes, you know, just a little bit, a little bit of the blowback, and it was on his shoes and such. And it was the shirt that he was wearing at basketball. It was the same shirt. Okay, but it's possible that all he had on the shirt at that point was this fine mist of blood spatter that maybe wasn't even visible to the naked eye.

12:31 I think that's what they're trying to say, is Okay, that's the high velocity missed. And if you remember, there are only eight spots, so he could have missed it. He could have thought, oh, yeah, I'm clean, I can go back to the game. Yeah. The next day, at the arrangement, bail was denied. The prosecutor announced that he had not decided if he would pursue the death penalty. David's family and Kim's family initially stuck by him, but soon the two families diverged and became bitter rivals. Sam Lockhart, David's uncle, his brother Donnie, his sister Julie, were his strongest supporters, both financially and emotionally, and would be in the years that followed. David, shackled and dressed in an orange jumpsuit, was allowed to view the bodies of his family and say goodbye the night before their funerals at Graceland Baptist Church, likely a last special favorite granted to him by his fellow officers. Over one thousand people crowded the church. The next day, two coffins sat at the altar. Brad and Jill were placed together holding hands. The relationship between Kim and David's family was already beginning to shift and become chilly. Sam, Donnie, and Julie had made and paid for the funeral arrangements and were miffed that Janis and Frank Wren hadn't contributed, nor had they made an attempt to visit David and jail.

13:45 David's sister Julie said the family felt torn at the funeral, quote, to me, it was surreal. I just remember sitting there and thinking why I was crying, whether I was crying for David or Kim, or Brad and Jill. The whole thing was we had to switch. And then there became that connotation that because we supported David, we didn't care about Kim, Brad and Jill. But our focus had to be on David. It had to because we couldn't save them, but we could help David. End quote. On October fifth, the investigation of the cam House was complete. The murder weapon was not found. In fact, it's never been found. Sam Lockhart thought of David as a son and was determined to prove his innocence. Not only did he secure an attorney and pay David's bills at his own expense while he was jailed, but he researched and investigated his case. On a Thursday in November, he insisted it had to be a Thursday to make the recreation identical.

14:41 Sam brought a thirty eight caliber gun to David's house. He made sure DeBie was home and in the same area of the house that she had been on the night of the murders. Sam shot the gun three times. None of the relatives across the road heard the gun shots. Which is a little strange because he was like banging on the tailgate of his truck and someone heard that, So that's kind of surprising. Yeah, I would think a gun would be louder than someone banging on a truck. But you know, Sam was trying to recreate the scene. But the winds and you know, a lot of things can change. A lot of variables there. Meanwhile, David had spent more than five months in solitary confinement and it was making him highly emotional and depressed. He pleaded to be placed in general population. His request was granted, but he was cautioned that it was at his own peril. Before the first trial, Michael McDaniel, David's attorney, sent the Backbone sweatshirt for testing at an independent lab.

15:40 If you recall from the first episode, there was a gray allegedly prisoned issued sweatshirt that was found in the crime scene that had the name or word backbone in shark at the neck. When the lab discovered a DNA profile, McDaniel contacted prosecutor stand Faith and asked him to run it through CODIS, the DNA database. As a defense attorney, McDaniel did not have access to the system. He called stand Faith several times for the results. Eventually, Faith said there was no match, but Faith was lying to McDaniel. The DNA profile found on the sweatshirt was never actually run through codis that's not cool. When forty eight hours asked prosecutor stand Faith why the sweatshirt wasn't tested before David's first trial, he said he had requested testing, but quote, it didn't get run.

16:32 I think someone dropped the ball. Unquote, I think I think he's passing the ball. When it was eventually tested, Kim and Brad's blood and DNA were discovered, but none of David's DNA. However, unknown DNA from two people and several unidentified hairs were found. Thinking the sweatshirt could belong to a scorned lover, a parade of women whom David had been involved with volunteered their DNA samples. No match was found. Unknown DNA was also found on Kim's sweater pants and Jill's sweatshirt. A trial was originally scheduled for March two thousand and one, but with the amount of evidence in the case, that was a tight deadline for both the defense and the prosecution. Indiana law states that a defendant must be brought to trial within six months of being charged, unless the delay is caused by the defense.

17:24 In the weeks leading up to the trial, David's family created a booklet outlining the reasons pointing to his innocence. They did not think David was getting a fair shake from the media. They handed it out to the community of potential jurors. A new Albany police officer participated in the distribution. He was later suspended for four months without pay for behavior unbecoming as an officer. As you can imagine, the prosecutor was furious over what they called propaganda. The judge threatened to move the trial to a different county. Ultimately, he decided to keep the trial in Floyd County, but brought in jurors from a different county. So they handed this booklet out to like people that were coming into the courtroom to potentially.

18:08 Be No, it wasn't then, but they were just handing them. Out of everybody in the community who could have been. You know, not everybody, but yeah they were. But was that any worse than you know, editorials that were being run or you know, the the media did seem slanted or biased against David. Yeah, sounds like it. The judge delayed the trial several times at the request of the defense. The prosecution was accused of not handing over discovery fast enough. The New Albany Tribune ran an editorial criticizing Floyd County for delaying the trial multiple times, leaving cam to sit in jail for a year and costing taxpayers four hundred thousand dollars.

18:49 The blood spatter experts alone cost nearly one hundred and ten thousand dollars, plus an additional eight thousand dollars for their expert testimony. The day after the article ran, the unplussed judge delayed the trial once again until January due to travel delays experienced by expert witness depositions after nine to eleven. Nine to eleven also delayed the results of some of the DNA tests. Janis and Frank Wren spoke with the media before the trial. They had tried to reserve judgment until the investigation was complete, but now they publicly stated that they thought David was guilty. A meeting with prosecutor stand Faith had swayed their opinion. Frank said, quote, there's no doubt in my mind David did it. It's kind of hard to accept. I mean, of all people, David would do this. The Wrens found the blood evidence particularly damning. Public opinion had shifted against David and his family as well. Many thought the cam Lockhart family acted entitled and arrogant and were covering up for David. Even Whitney, David's daughter from his first marriage to Tammy, now eighteen, turned her back on him and her family. She and Tammy both thought he was guilty. In a major blow to the defense, the judge ruled that evidence of David's extramarital affairs would be allowed into evidence. While he was in jail, a corrections officer accused David of propositioning her even behind bars, accused of killing his family. He couldn't resist being a complete scoundrel. Scoundrel that's a good word.

20:20 I don't use that word enough anymore. Well, it's a good word to describe David. Yeah. At one hearing, David's attorney filed an official alibi plea signed by the eleven men who he'd played basketball with, confirming he was with them the entire night of September twenty eighth. Isn't that crazy? So eleven people are saying, we're his alibi. He never left the game, but yet it went. On, And the prosecution's theory pretty much relied on the fact that he must have left the basketball game at some point right. He couldn't have done it before. Initially they were thinking that, oh, maybe it happened that when he got home, right, but then they realized that that wasn't enough time. There's another piece of evidence that will be revealed at trial that also disrupts the timeline.

21:05 Judge Richard Strigel presided over the trial. Prosecutor stand Faith, who'd been the Floyd County prosecutor for sixteen years, was facing a tight reelection battle as a Democrat and a predominantly Republican county. Winning a high profile case was crucial to his re election campaign. Word on the street was that Faith had strong armed the investigation and made sure David cam stayed in jail. Finally, on January seventh, two thousand and two, fifteen months after Kim, Brad and Jill were laid to rest, jury selection began in Johnson County, Indiana, about two hours northeast of New Albany, near Indianapolis. The jury made up of seven women, five men, plus three alternates were to be sequestered at a nearby holiday inn Monday through Thursday and Floyd County. They were allowed to return home to Johnson County for the weekend. That's a huge inconvenience for a group of people to not only be jurors only, but to leave your family and job and.

22:04 To make them stay on a holiday in you know, well, we could have done a little better. Maybe, Oh well, holiday is it up to your standards? You know, I'm a Marriott guy. Marriott if you're out there, Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. At five am, curious residents began lining up outside the courthouse, braving the frigid temperatures, hoping to snag one of the eighty seats available to the public. Some days, up to thirty people were turned away. The courtroom had an official capacity of ninety three. A crew from forty eight Hours and eleven other media outlets were guaranteed seats, as were the families. Kim's family sat behind the prosecutor's table along with Tammy and Whitney, while the cam Lockhart family sat behind David and the defense table. Many members of both families would be called to testify. They weren't allowed into the courtroom as spectators until after their testimony. Weeks to come, both families learned some shocking things about David cam First up was the prosecution. During opening arguments, Deputy Prosecutor Susan Orth delivered a surprising claim that David had not arrived at the church to play basketball before seven pm. She had proof that he had still been home as late as seven nineteen pm. Phone records proved that he made a call from his home at that time. If you remember, he allegedly was one of the first people there before seven.

23:30 Before the church was unlocked. The defense delivered a three hour opening statement. Mike McDaniel made damning allegations about the Indiana State Troopers. He compared the atmosphere among the troopers to a locker room. An initiation required participating in sexual competitions and bragging about one's conquests. They're saying here that David's inappropriate behavior wasn't unique to him, it was just the atmosphere. When the basketball players all testified and reinforced the notion that eyewitness testimony is the worst evidence, they all signed the affidavit that David had been there that night, but they had different memories from the night. Some said David played every game, and some said it was possible he had sat out a game at seven point thirty and slipped out of the gem unnoticed. Two weeks into the trial, the jurors took a field trip and actually saw the church gym. Thirteen women whom David had affairs or hookups with, including the wife of a fellow trooper, testified.

24:29 His conservative family was shocked when they realized the extent of his infidelity and disrespect towards women. They viewed him as a dedicated family man. Uncle Sam said, quote, he was an adulterer, and he was not a very good husband, and I'm not very proud of him for what he did, but that does not make him a murderer end quote. While his family's support was unflinching, the jury looked at Cam with disgust. A DNA expert testified that there was no DNA match on the mop or bucket that the prosecution claimed was used to the crime scene, so it was just a mop and a bucket. There was no blood evidence on it, so it hadn't been used to clean OK. Got it further, DNA testimony revealed that there was plenty of unknown DNA at the crime scene, including on Jill and the children's clothing and the backbone sweatshirt.

25:18 Stits and Englert, remember the blood expert guys well experts. They were both key witnesses at the trial. Stites testified that he was a crime scene reconstructionist and was working towards a PhD in fluid dynamics. Stan Faith repeatedly called Stit's professor. Stites also claimed to have investigated crime scenes for the military and the FBI. None of this was true. Stites was never a crime scene reconstructionist and never studied fluid dynamics. He never took a single course in fluid dynamics or crime scene reconstruction. In college. He took one chemistry class that he failed. His degree is in economics.

26:03 He wasn't even familiar with the scientific method. The cam crime scene was the first that he ever investigated. It's just insane that he would testify it. I mean, he could be charged with perjury. Right, but he was not. Wow. Rod Eingler, a former homicide detective turned forensic expert, was the final witness for the prosecution. The jury had been subjected to days and days of long winded expert witnesses. Engler was a compelling witness who had worked on several high profile cases, including the O. J. Simpson case and the Selena Quintania case. He testified over several days he was one hundred percent certain that the eight tiny spots on David's T shirt were the result of high velocity blood spatter and confirmed that David shot the gun that killed Kim, Brad and Jill. During cross examination, McDaniel was able to discredit the expert's education and credibility, highlighting the lack of certification of blood spatter science. The defense believes that if the stains came from high velocity bloods better, there would be more than eight spots. David would have been covered in blood, his clothing, his face, and hands.

27:10 They contended that when David reached over Jill to pull Brad from the cargo area, that he brushed up against Jill's hair that contains tiny specks of blood. That was my thought too, Like, I don't think eight spots of you know, the microscopic I don't think that would indicate very much. You would think, you know, there would be much more blowback than just eight tiny spots. Yeah, you would think that. After twenty six days and eighty four witnesses, the prosecution rested their case. We'll be back after a break. Well that was some bathroom break. Yeah, five days later, we're back.

27:54 You know, sometimes you take a break and you just enjoy it. I don't know what happened. I think it was Sunday that we were recording. We were just like, ah, let's just take the down. There must have been a football game on you wanted to see. Probably, Yeah, we're back. Now, we're back. Despite the ongoing trial, the cam Lockhart family was still helping David's defense in any way they could. Sam and Downie focused on the call the prosecution alleged that David had made at seven to nineteen pm on the night of the murders. They knew that David was at the church playing basketball, They had seen him. They discovered that there was a discrepancy in Verizon's system because of daylight saving time and Indiana's confusing time zones. Indiana does have confusing.

28:35 It really does. The call had actually been made at six nineteen pm, in a significant setback for the prosecution. Mike McDaniel called David Eschweiler from Verizon to testify. He admitted that Verizon had made an error. Isn't that unbelievable. That's a huge. Error, that is it? Yeah, that's crazy. The whole case hinged on it. There must have been an audible gasp courtroom when that testimony was happening. It would be what they call a Perry Mason moment. Yeah. Prosecutor stand Faith later told reporters how disappointed he was, quote, we relied on their word and they all of a sudden go back on it. Any Horizon right.

29:16 The defense argued that the blood evidence was paltry, only eight microscopic spots on David's shirt. They hired their own blood spatter expert, Terry Labor, for eighty thousand dollars. Sam Lockhart paid his steep fee. He refuted almost all of the prosecution expert's findings. The blood on David was from transfer, not high velocity spatter. Of the eight spots on the T shirt, only four had been tested. During cross examination, the prosecution attempted to discredit the expert witness. For every expert witness, there's an opposing expert witness, and as a as a juror. I'm not sure how you weighe through that. I know, I don't know how you do either. And blood spatter science is a little bit questionable anyway, right for sure, So it's a tough one. Bart Epstein, another blood spatter expert, said, quote, gunshot will produce hundreds of stains coming back. I've never seen. I believe the other experts for both the prosecution and the defense have indicated that they've never seen just seven small or eight small stains from a gunshot. I've never seen that. Unquote, he was able to reproduce similar blood stains on a T shirt using wig hair.

30:26 That's one component of the case that I've had a hard time with too. They're calling it high velocity blood spatter, but there's only eight specs, and you would think that they were, you know, to call it high velocity blood spatter, there would have to be much more right. And so they were able to recreate these little spots by using wig hair. So he's saying this could have happened from him handling the bodies of his wife and children, that maybe. He didn't really handle the bodies. Remember he got Brad out of the back seat, and when he was leaning over because it was only a two door Bronco and had to lean over, and he leaned over and there was blood in Jill's hair, and that's how the blood was transferred, right.

31:07 Okay, So he's saying it could have happened in a different way rather than just high velocity blood. Spec Yes, but the other guys were one percent positive that it could only be high velocity blood spatter. The blood experts testified that the blood from the crime scene was at least two hours old when David returned home. The blood was dark, congealed, and had begun to break down. What the prosecution called a cleaning agent was blood separating into serum and blood cells and platelets. The nine to twenty two timeline the prosecution proposed was impossible. They contended. That's another important component of the case is what they were calling cleaning fluid was literally just blood separating as it does after it sits there at a crime scene for a while. And these so called blood experts should have been able to tell that the fact that they called it cleaning fluid is crazy.

32:00 Yeah, And they're saying the time of death must have been like seven or seven thirty something like that. So definitely not nine or after. Remember back to the probable cause affidavit, it said that the murder happened between nine and nine thirty, And now we realize that that's impossible, No. Way that could have been. Yeah, Jill's vaginal trauma was caused by a playground incident, not sexual abuse. The defense contended. On the thirty sixth day of the trial, March seventh, two thousand and two, David cam took the witness stand. The judge had arranged for additional seating in a nearby courtroom with a live, closed circuit TV feed to accommodate additional spectators that day. It was very rare that the defendant takes the stand in a trial like this, Definitely.

32:45 As the former state trooper took the stand, he looked noticeably older, gaunt, and nervous. Gone was his cocky swagger. After he was sworn in, before any questions were posed, he sobbed uncontrollably for several minutes as the shocked courtroom in silence. After he gained his composure, he talked about how he found his family on the night of September twenty eighth. At first, when he saw Kim's body on the garage floor. He thought it was Jill in her dance tights because Kim's pants were removed. He had checked her for a pulse and found her cool to the touch, but Brad was still warm, so he pulled him out and began CPR, but quickly felt the air coming out of Brad's nose and he knew he was doing it wrong.

33:27 On the second day of David's testimony, he wobbled to the stand and appeared to be under the influence of something. He admitted he had been taking an anti anxiety medication daily since the murders and was plagued by constant migraines. That day, he had also taken klonopin. A doctor was called in to assess his ability to stand witness after he was given a shot of imatrex for his migraine. The trial continued. When asked by prosecutor Faith about his infidelities, David said, quote, you can't make me feel any worse than I already do about these things. On Wednesday, March thirteenth, the fortieth day of the trial, the defense rested. Over the nine weeks of the trial, one hundred eight witnesses were called, and over four hundred exhibits were viewed. It was the longest and most expensive trial in Floyd County history.

34:17 The judge gave everyone Thursday off to prepare for closing arguments. Everyone involved was exhausted. I can't even imagine. Stan Faith delivered a forty minute closing. He focused on David's infidelity and how he took his family for granted. Mike McDaniel highlighted the prosecution's lack of real evidence. The jury began deliberations at one forty five pm. At eight fifteen pm, they called it a day. They returned on Saturday for day two. Their first vote was eight to four guilty, then ten to two. The jury convened at eight thirty pm and returned on Sunday morning. The two holdouts were immovable. After four hours, they sent a note to the judge declaring they were deadlocked and frustrated and angry. The four person cautioned the judge it was clear that tensions had reached a boiling point in the jury room. The judge encouraged them to keep working. After dinner, one of the holdouts shifted their decision to guilty, but one woman Judy Price stuck to her guns. She told forty eight hours quote there was a lot of yelling. I'm not comfortable with the way I acted, unquote, but she's saying. She was yelling just as everyone was bracing themselves for a hung jury. At ten forty seven pm, the jury reached a verdict after twenty nine hours of deliberation. It took over an hour to assemble everyone in the courtroom. It was after midnight when the verdict was read. The jury filed in and not a single member looked at David, never a good sign. He was found guilty of three

35:48 counts of first degree murder. David, barely audible, mumbled, but I was playing basketball. Other members of his family yelled at the jury. Julie, David's sister, yelled, no, no, no, it's wrong. You know it's wrong. She was escorted by bailiffs from the courtroom. Do you think that a single juror that was holding out felt pressure to change her mind? Oh? I'm sure she did. I think you know what goes on in a jury room. You know there's a lot. I'm sure there's a lot of debating and arguing, especially in a case like this where people are have strong opinions and disagree, and I would imagine someone could feel a little bit bullied if they're the only person holding out right. Yeah.

36:28 She said that one of the jurors that she felt was a friend that she trusted, came to her and said, I really think he's guilty, and I wouldn't steer you in the wrong way if I felt differently, and that was enough to swear at that point. Really prosecutor stand faith said quote, they did a good job. There is no reasonable doubt that he killed them. Unquote. After the verdict, the families talked to the media. Julie said, quote, I think someone caved in to what they believed in. They caved into pressure from the other jurors. We have a hard time believing that someone who thought he was not guilty now believes that he's guilty. We will not stop fighting David is an innocent man. Unquote. Kim's sister Debbie said, quote, we still don't have the kids back, and we never will. We won't have Kim back in our family and that can't be changed. But at least he's not out unquote. Frank Wren, Kim's father, said he was partially satisfied with the verdict. Quote, I know Kim is looking down now, shaking her head at David cam Eight days later, Amos Lockhart died at age ninety four.

37:37 His family thinks that he stayed alive to see his grandson exonerated, and when he was found guilty, he died of a broken heart. We're not done here by a long shot. But do you think that there's reasonable doubt? I mean I kind of do. I think the blood spatter evidence is definitely you could believe either way. I think it's not definitive. The phone call thing is pretty you know, it definitely makes the prosecution's case a lot weaker. So yeah, I definitely have reasonable doubt here. David's sentencing was held a month later. The maximum sentence was one hundred and ninety five years, sixty five years for each victim. Janis Run, Kim's mother, was the first to read her victim impact statement. She said, quote, since the night of September twenty eighth, two thousand, I have felt mostly emptiness and pain. My pain came when I think about the brutal way they died. How scared they must have been. She asked the judge to sentence David to the maximum. Debbie Karam, Kim's sister, spoke next, quote, all we ever wanted from you from the beginning of this whole nightmare was truth, just the simple truth. I don't feel you'll ever be mad enough or strong enough to give us the closure that we really need. At least we have the solace of knowing that we will see Kim, Brad and Jill again, and you you'll have a far greater judgment day ahead. End quote. David addressed Kim's family quote. You may have gotten your wish and had me imprisoned in my body, but I will always be free on the inside, and you can never take that away from me. Regardless of where I am. I

39:07 can lie my head down in good conscious knowing that Kim, Brad and Jill are walking this walk with me because they know I am innocent, and God will strengthen me, and I will endure this madness until I get a fair and just judgment. Judge, you do what you want. You can imprison my body, but you will have no control over my spirit. End quote. Judge Richard Stragel sentenced David to the maximum sentence one hundred and ninety five years in prison, not eligible for parole until he is one hundred forty three years of age, he said quote. By the murder of his wife and children, David Camp demonstrated his complete disregard for civilized society In these cruel acts.

39:48 He exercised no restraint on his impulses and intentionally failed to conform his conduct with law. Such behavior indicates there is a risk that the defendant will commit another crime. Civilized use people cannot identify with this kind of thinking and behavior. These killings devastated and shattered the lives of all family members. The details of his testimony, his mannerisms, and his demeanor on the stand were consistent with him being guilty of the murders. The killing of a spouse is certainly repugnant, but to kill one's own children is something any civilized person would struggle with, even believing each time the gun was fired, the defendant had the choice to refrain from the act. He chose not to, and Kim Brad and Jill's blood has convicted him. The court finds that the crimes committed justify imposing the maximum sentence end David was sent to the Indiana State Prison in Michigan City, Indiana, a maximum security prison. He was placed in a high risk group and given limited privileges. David was said to be a model prisoner. David's attorney, Mike McDaniel, filed an appeal citing thirteen issues from the trial, including the admittance of evidence of David's exit marital affairs, the alleged sexual abuse of Jill, trial errors made by the judge, and the fact that several jurors spouses were allowed to attend the trial and stay overnight with them at the sequestered hotel.

41:13 That's strange. On the second anniversary of the murders, the Rens filed a wrongful death lawsuit against David. They were seeking punitive damages. The four hundred thousand dollars life insurance money from Kim, Brad and Jill sat in an Escor account until the court ruled on what to do with the money. David sued Backbone remember the Backbone sweatshirt for damages and emotional distress. In the lawsuit, he accused the Indiana State Police of not following up on leads and having tunnel vision. I know it's weird that he sued this mysterious stranger. But okay, yeah, I was like his backbone a company or what is now It's just you know, you file a lawsuit against somebody if you don't know their identity, that's really weird.

41:58 In August two thousand and four, three judge panel voted unanimously to reverse David's sentence, specifically citing that Judge Richard Striegel and prosecutors stand faith should not have allowed the evidence of David's various affairs, entanglements, and inappropriate treatment of women. That's interesting because that was out of all the things you listed, that was the one. I'm like, that seems like pretty relevant to me. But it does seem like character witness testimony. Right. It's just always so strange what gets allowed and what doesn't get allowed. What it really is based on the judge's billing, Yeah, the three judge panels said, quote, the trial court abused its discretion in allowing the state to introduce evidence of Cam's adulterous conduct. There was no evidence of a violent or hostile relationship between Cam and his wife, nor any evidence that he ever threatened her with harm. Although we are cognizant of the great financial and emotional expense invested in the first nine week trial. We cannot allow these convictions to stand end quote. Among the problems cited in the twenty nine page opinion were David's slid alibi signed by eleven eye witnesses, the unidentified DNA and the victims, and the mystery backbone sweatshirt. As thrilled as David was, the Wren family was devastated and called it the nightmare that just won't end. The Indiana Attorney General appealed the decision to the Indiana Supreme Court, who refused to reverse the decision of the appeals court, but gave Floyd County the right to retry the case against David. Cam The

43:30 new prosecutor, Keith Henderson, stan Faith lost his re election bid, forged a cold case unit to reinvestigate the murders. Quote. It will be looked at with a new set of eyes. I seek to have justice in this case. We will be ready end quote. David was hopeful that the new prosecutor, also a former Indiana state trooper, would not file new charges against him, but Henderson soon announced his intent to retry David, even though he was not able to use David's infidelities against him, as prosecutor Sam faith had in the first trial, Henderson had a new bombshell witness who claimed that David confessed to the murders in prison. The second trial was scheduled for summer two thousand and five.

44:15 Both sides were hoping that advancements in DNA testing would identify some of the unidentified evidence. While he awaited his second trial, David was granted bail in January two thousand and five, after spending nearly four years in jail. Sam Lockhart rushed to the bank and happily paid the twenty thousand dollars. Bailed twenty thousand dollars for somebody accused of killing the murders. That is the lowest bail I've ever heard. That is crazy. After his release from prison, David lived and worked with Sam. In March two thousand and five, four and a half years after the murders of Kim Brad and Jill cam a thirty five year old man named Charles Bonnet was arrested and charged with recounts a first degree murder. Boney, an eleven time convicted felon, had a prison nickname. You'll never guess what it is.

45:08 Hmm, I can't even imagine backbone. What. During an interview, Bonet said, my name's backbone. All it means is I'm not spiseless. Okay. The Indiana Department of Corrections actually has a database of inmate nicknames, but prosecutor Stan Faith claimed he was not aware of it. The name Backbone was not cross checked with the Department of Corrections database to try and match this the nickname Backbone to any prisoner that was currently or previously in jail. Had they done that, it's possible that this case could have been solved sooner. And remind me why they thought that this sweatshirt might have come from a prisoner, because why was that. It's just that's what prisoners did, like write their name on the inside.

45:54 Or One of the investigators at the scene said this was a prison issued sweatshirt and maybe it was because the name was on it, but David said it wasn't his. Okay. DNA from the Backbone sweatshirt and the palm print found on Kim's ford bronco were matched to Bonet through the National DNA database. Bone initially claimed that he had donated the sweatshirt in a Salvation Army dropbox, and he had never met David. Additional evidence against him included his DNA under Kim's fingernails, Kim's sweater, underwear, and Jill's sweatshirt. I always wondered about the DNA under her fingernails, because ever since you said that, I think in part one that there were signs of a struggle and that she had DNA under her fingernails. I'm like, well, that should give you the answer.

46:40 Right there, right Boney has a long rap sheet and an extensive history of violence against women. Remember Kim's shoes neatly placed on top of her bronco. Boney has a fetish for women's feet and shoes. Kim had extensive bruising on her feet. One of her feet looked like it may have been stomped on. Attending the University of Indiana, Bonet was known as the Shoe Bandit. In nineteen eighty nine, he was convicted of three counts of robbery and one count of attempted robbery for wrestling women to the ground, beating them, and stealing one shoe. He was sentenced to five years in prison, but served only six months. In June two thousand, Bonet was released from prison after serving seven years for armed robbery after holding three women at gunpoint.

47:27 He was sentenced to twenty years but granted early release. Bonet grew up in the same small town as David New Albany, Indiana, but their paths had never crossed. Initially, Bonet claimed that he didn't even know David. That sweatshirt is in the middle of a cram scene of a triple homicide. Somehow that sweatshirt got there, Your sweatshirt, you explained to me. How I got there. I have no idea. It shows up at a cram scene not longer. If it went through the Salvation Army drop box, that would have been a clean sweatshirt. Your DNA chances are probably wouldn't have been.

48:08 On there, but it is. I see where you're coming from. You know David Cam? No, you ever met David Cam? No? Do you remember the murder of David. Cam's family on television? Yes? Do you know where David Cam lives? Calling on television? Make no mistake about it. If anything else, I'll link to you to it. You're done, stick a four PU and see. That would normally worry me. I wasn't there, No, he wasn't he wasn't there. Oh okay. Then well later Bonney changed his story after the palm print was found to be his.

48:48 Got some explaining to do here, Charles, your palm print is on that bronco. You're there now, this is the time, this is the place, this is your last stage. But you're going to have to tell us what the hell happened? This is it? This can't be, Charles. The reason I was then. The last damon is muffled, he said. The reason I was there that night was to bring him a gun. Bone said he met David in July two thousand at a pickup basketball game at a park in New Albany. David asked Bonet if he could get him a clean gun.

49:30 So David was not a police officer anymore at this point, so why would why would he want a convicted criminal to bring him a gun? That's a very good question. Boney said. David paid him two hundred and fifty dollars for the gun. He delivered the gun to David the same day he requested it, but days before the murders, David requested a second gun, which Bonet said he delivered wrapped in the backbone sweatshirt. On September twenty eighth, just minutes before Kim and the kids came home, David met him outside the garage. Bone claimed he was outside of the garage when David and Kim began fighting. He heard Kim yell no and a child say Daddy no, and then heard three gunshots. Then David walked out of the garage with a gun poised at Bonet, but as he was about to shoot him, the gun jammed. Boney chased David back into the garage.

50:20 David ran into the house. That's when Bonet learned leaned into the bronco to check on Kim, Brad and Jill, leaving his palm print. He tripped over kim shoes and put them on top of the bronco, and then ran from the scene, leaving the sweatshirt behind. So you'll notice he has an explanation for every single piece of evidence in the crime scene. I hear that, I just yeah, I put the shoes on top of the bronco after I tripped on them in this crime scene. That seems really like a likely thing someone would do. Well, not just that, but why would even if David had asked him for a gun, Why would he need a second gun. Yeah, it just makes no sense. Bone was given two polygraph tests. One came back incanncline, elusive, and the other possibly deceptive. He's a really an odd guy.

51:07 Despite his constantly shifting story, Prosecutor Keith Henderson believed Bonet's account because why wouldn't you, you know, the guy who's been in prison. Yeah, he's told you five different versions of the story. And his DNA is under the victim's fingernails. Why are prosecutors so quick to believe jail house informants. Well, yeah, I think they are just looking for anything to support their case. But in this situation, yeah, it doesn't seem like a good decision. There is evidence that Bonet, who was interviewed multiple times over twenty hours, received pressure and was fed information to encourage him to implicate David as a co conspirator. Police had installed cameras at the cemetery, hoping to catch David confessing to his family, but instead they caught Charles Bonet at the cemetery.

51:53 Oh so he was visiting the graves of Kim and the children. Apparently. Wow. At this point, do you think that there's any evidence linking David to the crime M. Not really well. And remember he has an alibi signed by eleven people saying that he was at the basketball game. Yeah, between seven and nine thirty. Yeah, But I am trying to think if there's any possibility that I could see David if he wanted to get rid of his wife to work with someone like Bonet. But you're right, I mean, the evidence it's hard to put David at the scene when the crime occurred, and the fact that the DNA and everything all point to Bone. Yeah, I don't see anything that really points to David at this point.

52:39 Unless he could have been hired right. Two days later, after being free on bail for two months, Keith Henderson dropped the charges against David cam He and his family were jubilant. Not only was he cleared, but the real killer was finally found In the midst of a family celebration. Three hours later, Prosecutor Henderson filed new charges against David, three accounts of murder and one count of conspiracy. Well, that was a short lived celebration. It was a new probable cause effidavit was written by a new lead investigator, Gary Gilbert. He wrote that Sean Clemens, the initial lead investigator told him that David confessed on the night of the murders. While investigators collected evidence, David complained about the treatment he was receiving from his old trooper friends and said, quote, this is what they do when you kill your wife and kids. They considered this a confession.

53:32 Doesn't sound like a confession, really, right, And if. They considered a confession, why hadn't Sean Clemens included it in the first probable cause effidavit? Yeah, exactly. Henderson decided to try Bonet and David together as co conspirators. David, now forty one, was arrested again and to night bail. Both David and Boney were jailed at the Floyd County Jail. When asked about the new charges, Frank Wren said, quote, I'm tickled to death about that justice will be served and it will be easier to sleep at night. In a matter of days, Sam Lockhart and his family felt every possible emotion, from elation to rage, to depression and frustration. They thought that Bonet's arrest meant that David would be exonerated.

54:14 Sam said, quote, I thought they'd finally come to their senses when they released him on bond. Our prosecutors are just doing this to cover themselves. They can't admit they're wrong. They're doing this because they made errors in the past and can't admit errors. End quote. I agree with that wholeheartedly. Yeah, I do too. In August two thousand and five, David was forced to do a ten days stint in solitary after he violently yelled at Bonnet through the library window. It was a chance meeting as the men were kept in different cell blocks. David shouted, you killed my family and pounded on the window. It's kind of crazy that they were at the same jail. Yeah, that's the way, different cell blocks. It seems like that's not the best idea.

54:57 No, we'll be back after a break. Because of the intense media and public interest in the case, a change of venue to Warwick County, Indiana, about eighty miles east of New Albany, was granted for David's second trial. The prosecutor wanted to try Bonet and cam together, but the judge denied the request. Bonet's trial remained in Floyd County. On Monday, January ninth, two thousand and six, David's second trial started in Warwick County, while Charles Bonet's trial began in Floyd County as they started them on the same day.

55:37 David was now represented by two fierce female attorneys, Kitty Lyle and Stacey Uliana, who were responsible for getting the verdict in the first trial overturned. They both firmly believed in David's innocence and were determined to see him exonerated. Certain evidence was excluded from the trial, including David's history of infidelity and very limited mentions of Charles Boney. Wow. Really, that seems really crazy. This is really unfair. Yeah. On January twenty fifth, two thousand and six, in Franklin County, Boney was found guilty on the three murder charges and one count of conspiracy, but that information was not shared with the jurors in David's trial.

56:18 I don't know how they proved or tried to prove the conspiracy charge. As far as I'm aware, there is not a shred of evidence linking these two men together other than Bonet's account that they met at a basketball game. Blah blah blah. There's no can you really trust his word on that exactly? Yeah, that's really crazy. Boney was sentenced to two hundred and twenty five years in prison. Kim's father, Frank Wren, was concerned about the lack of forensic evidence against David. Quote, David cam murdered these three people, and he's the one we got to get unquote. This drives me. I'm sorry, I'm like emotional about this case because they're so convinced confirmation bias. Like everyone is, like, you know, trying to link David to the crime, but no one is willing to think, oh, maybe he's innocent.

57:05 Yeah, I mean, it is possible that David is not a good guy, that he had affairs, that he was not good to his wife, and that he also didn't kill her and his kids. Thank you, Yes, those exactly. In a blow to the defense, the judge allowed evidence of Jill's possible sexual abuse. The prosecution argued that David had molested Jill, and when Kim confronted him, he killed her and the children. The prosecution widened the window of Jill's possible sexual abuse to forty eight hours before her death. During the second trial, the judge allowed the jury to hear limited information about Bonnet. They could only introduce evidence of his DNA and PALM print being found in the cam's garage. The defense could not mention that he was found guilty at his trial, his history of violence against women, or his foot fetish. An inmate who served time with David testified that he had confessed to him when he was giving him a tattoo. He claimed that David told him he had killed his family after sneaking out of the basketball game, and that he only regretted Brad's death.

58:10 After the prosecution rested five weeks into the trial, the judge dropped the conspiracy charge against David because the prosecution failed to make their case so in this case, the judge said there was no evidence of a conspiracy, so he dropped that charge. But in Bonnet's case, he was found guilty of conspiracy with no evidence linking them together. Okay. The defense's strongest evidence was that David couldn't have killed his family because he was at the basketball game. The second trial lasted seven weeks and cost more than five hundred thousand dollars. More than seventy five witnesses were heard. The jury deliberated for forty four hours over four days, and returned a guilty verdict on Friday, March third, Interestingly, the jury foreman was an attorney. He convinced his fellow jurors to methodically review the evidence before taking their initial vote.

59:00 On the fourth day, it was nine to three guilty, but they soon all came to a consensus guilty on three counts of murder. The cam Lockhart families were devastated and wept as the verdict was read, while the Wren family felt relief. They believe without a doubt that David is guilty. Davidkam was once again sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. In two thousand and nine, the Indiana Supreme Court once again overturned David's conviction, stating, quote missing from this record is any competent evidence of the premise that the defendant molested the child quote. The evidence of Jill being sexually abused was ruled to be speculative and prejudicial. The decision stated that if any future prosecution of David Kam were to mention a possible sexual assault of Jill, the prosecutor would be required to have credible proof against David. Wow, this is quite a saga, isn't it. It's it is crazy that they didn't allow evidence about his affairs, and yet they allowed this evidence which really there wasn't a whole lot to back up that he had abused her.

1:00:07 Her autopsy stated that there was blunt forest trauma in her vaginal region. But we don't know if that could have been Bonet or you know, it possibly could have been David. But as soon as you talk about child's sexual abuse, it's prejudicial. And because there was no proof who could have done it, you know, I understand that they couldn't use it at trial, right, Yeah. For sure. A change of venue was granted for the third trial to Boone County in Lebanon, Indiana, about two and a half hours from New Albany. The trial was delayed until October twenty thirteen. Charles Bonet testified. He claimed that on the night of the murders, he hand delivered a gun to David and that he was outside of the garage when he heard the three shots. The inmate who had testified at the second trial about David's alleged confession, testified at the third trial, doubling down on the account that he gave at the second trial. This time, the defense was ready for him. They asked him if he'd been moved to a more favorable prison and given a reduced sentence for his testifying against David. Two weeks after the second trial, the inmate, who had been released on probation, denied having received any special favors by the state, but it was obvious that he had. That does not seem like that should be okay to give somebody special favors for testifying, because it's it's basically like paying someone to get on a stand and say something, which I guess it happens with expert witnesses, but it shouldn't happen with anyone else, Oh should not. David noted that several jurors

1:01:40 made eye contact with him as they filed into the courtroom. This was his third trial, and he knew that this might be a positive sign. On October twenty fourth, twenty thirteen, David was acquitted of all three murders and gained his freedom. Wow. David, his family, and attorneys all wept not be tried again for the murders of Kim, Brad and Jill. Kim's sister Debbie said, quote, what bothers me is when he said they had a happy marriage toward the end, they did not He was very, very controlling. He kept her under wraps. Kim wasn't herself before she died. She wasn't happy. She kept telling me soon will be spending more time together.

1:02:21 Unquote, David told Eugene Lyscio of the Three D Forensics podcast. Quote, They'll say or do anything not to have to admit they are wrong and to protect themselves and the image that is out there, especially about the state police. They were fully vested and all in and nothing was going to persuade them to deviate from that path. David credits his attorneys, who he refers to his family, with never giving up on him. He believes the change in venue in the third trial made a difference, and also, you know, excluding the evidence against his infidelity and the alleged sexual ruse, Yeah, that. Took a lot of like just the emotional part of it out of the jury. Like if they didn't hear evidence about his daughter being sexually abused and evidence about his affairs, then you know, it was probably more fair.

1:03:14 After David was acquitted, he filed a lawsuit against Floyd County for thirty million dollars. In twenty sixteen, the county settled the lawsuit for four hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He filed other lawsuits, which were filed and settled privately. David filed a federal civil rights lawsuit as well, seeking compensation from the state, as well as from some of the expert witnesses and investigators, including Stites, Engler, and the lead investigator and writer of the flawed probable cause effidavit, Sean Clemens. The lawsuit claimed the evidence was falsified and the experts were unqualified as expert witnesses. Part of the lawsuit demanded that Robert Stites issue a public apology to David.

1:03:56 The case against the expert witnesses was dismissed in Janey twenty eighteen, but then reinstated in twenty nineteen by the Seventh Circuit US Court of Appeals. In April twenty twenty two, the State of Indiana settled it's part of the lawsuit for four point six million dollars. Robert Stites released a statement that said he quote acknowledges and regrets that his actions in October two thousand, as well as the actions of others, contributed to the imprisonment of David cam who was later exonerated. Now sites was the blood spatter analyst. Is that right? He was the guy who had no experience. Yeah. Yeah, he was the one with no experience.

1:04:38 That still boggles my mind that he was allowed to testify. David's attorney at the time, Gary Adams said, quote, there is not enough money in the world to compensate David Camp for what he has been through. End quote. As soon as David received his settlement money, he repaid all of his relatives who had never wavered in their belief of his innocence. They'd selflessly paid for his defense Sam Lockhart, who sacrificed his business and livelihood with his loyal and steadfast support. You can tell why my unbiased writing here that I am a big fan of Sam Lockhart, and I think he is an exceptional individual. And it's just amazing to me that these people can stand up for their family and be there and support them no matter what. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. David filed a wrongful death suit against Charles Boney, and August twenty twenty three of Floyd County judge ruled that Boney must pay three million dollars to David.

1:05:34 I'm not sure with what, but the Rens dropped their wrongful death suit against David, but said nothing had changed. They still firmly believed their former son in law was guilty and they would continue to fight him from profiting from the deaths of cam Brad and Jill and him getting the insurance money. Their lawyer said, quote, acquittal is not the same as innocence. David said that he cared about the Rens and he would like to re establish a relationship with them, but he also accused them of being financially motivated. He said some kind of not so nice things about them, which as I can't really blame him. Prosecutor Keith Henderson had a public fall from grace that began during David's trial. He signed a book deal to write about the case while it was still ongoing. It was a major conflict of interest and created concerns that his decision making in the case might be influenced by financial motives rather than a commitment to justice. Henderson was also criticized for using public funds improperly and abusing government resources when he built the county for his personal legal fees when fighting a personal disciplinary action. These issues led to Henderson's permanent dispartment in Indiana and February twenty twenty two, he died shortly after losing his law license. While Stan Faith faced no legal repercussions for his handling of David Cam's first trial, he faced public scrutiny for questionable handling of evidence, failing to investigate other suspects, and conflicts of interest.

1:07:04 His reputation never fully recovered from his buggling of the case. He died in January twenty twenty three. Jill Cam had boundless energy. She loved to dance, play dress up and loved to play sports. Rad loved to swim and play with his cousins. He was a quiet child, but stood up for injustice and was a great big brother. Kim was smart, funny, and a hard worker, completely dedicated to her family. She was quiet and observant. She could sit through a two hour meeting and summarize it in two sentences. She fought valiantly against her attacker to save her children. Rest in peace, Kim, Brad and Jill. When David was initially exonerated in twenty thirteen, he did speaking engagements and advocacy work her. He is speaking at a police event.

1:07:49 I guess I would just say to some this thing up is now. I don't know what you'll do exactly, or who you are or whatever. I know you're in the legal field, and so on. I have told students this before. Tell the story. I don't care who you are or what you do. I don't you know. With young people at the colleges, if they want to go into law enforcement, want to be a police officer. I don't care. That's fine, but whatever you do, be fair. Just be fair. Treat people the way that you would want to be treated if you were in that.

1:08:29 Situation, because you know what, sometimes you're going to have an innocent person sitting there. It's going to happen. Recognize that. Be diligent in your difference. We're all human beings and we. All make mistakes, including police officers, including prosecutors and judges. And when you're wrong, if that happens, have the courage to recognize it and do the right thing. Make it tight.

1:09:10 As human beings, we owe at to each other. Thank you. David said he'd love to become a forensics expert and work with other wrongly convicted inmates incarcerated due to blood spatter analysis. David believes blood spatter analysis is like art, just a subjective opinion. Everyone sees something different. He said he dreams of Kim Braden Jill every night. He was very hurt by his fellow law enforcement officers who turned on him so quickly and didn't properly process the crime scene and failed to look into other suspects. I've always believed, ultimately that the truth would prevail find strength, and that I've always believed on the issues that we've were raised that have caused these.

1:10:02 Reversals, that we were right. So, you know, you just it's really a survival moved. Were you close with the other troopers? Yeah? I used to work betrayal earlier. You know some of these people were they were family, brother and sister to love, would have done anything, and the one moment in my life where I hate somebody to do something for me, yeah, they turned them back. So he went from being the good guy to a bad guy virtually overnight. Really would infraction of the second.

1:10:46 You think about him every day? Yeah, I dream about him every night. Since his release from prison, David has been trying to rebuild his life. He remarried and twenty eighteen and now lives in the Indianapolis area. I think I haven't been able to find much about him in the last few years. It is estimated that the state of Indiana spent five million dollars on prosecuting David cam who is likely an innocent man. County employees had to forego raises because of the expensive trial. Robert Stites was never charged with perjury. He claimed that prosecutors stand faith encouraged him to bolster his credentials. Wow, that is it's bananas because he definitely lied.

1:11:31 On Yeah, that really bothers me. Charles Bonet remains in prison serving his life sentence. He calls himself a changed man who has found God. While in prison, he has founded two groups, Badged Lives Matter and Few or Fella's Empowering Women. Okay, Badged Lives Matter and Fella's Empowering Women. Yep, okay. Here's a clip of Charles Bonet talking. I regret being involved in this case. I really wish I could go back in time, but I don't regret the time that I have. I wouldn't change it because it's made me better, It's helped me grow. If I hadn't to come back to prison, I wouldn't know Christ like I know him. We're clearly both there and one of us is the killer. Davidkam is the killer. I didn't tell the truth about everything because I wanted to stay completely out of the mix. I didn't want to go back to prison. As I told them the truths about the story, they didn't believe it. So then I started just telling them things that I thought that they could believe. At the end of the day, I've told I think all together like five different versions. On September twenty eighth, I took a second untraceable weapon to the Cam residence. David Cam showed up. We were talking outside of his house. His wife, Kim Cam, and the two children, Brad and Jill, pulled up in a I believe it was a black Bronco. As the garage door lifted up,

1:13:02 she drove in. I've seen her break lights come on, and then he went into the garage. And then I heard arguing, and I heard a no, and then I heard a daddy no, and then I heard pop pop pop. My sweatshirt was not tucked under his son. He staged that Kim Cam, his wife was not undressed at all. I learned from television and in my discovery that someone had removed her pants. So he claims to be a changed man, but basically he's sticking with his story, says exactly what he said in the trial is what happened.

1:13:42 Exactly that he did not kill the family. Yeah, and lastly, here's David cam talking about what he would want from Bonnet. The angers there and the hate is there that I can't let go, and right now I don't think that I want to. But it's not something that conserves me and it definitely doesn't control that he's taken all that he's going to take from me. The question people always ask me is how to this African American man end up at this house in World Georgetown. Who I don't know? Would you want anything from him? Would you want the truth? Finally? Would you want an admission? And you know, I thought perhaps I should write him a letter and just say, look, Charles, between you and I me and command please tell me.

1:14:32 You know I want to know why. Above all, so I learn a Why do you think you ever will write him a letter? Yeah? No, because regardless of what he wrote me back, it'll. Just be live. I think Charles Bonnet is a psychopath. Yeah, I don't think he will ever tell the truth. And if David Cam hired him to kill his family, he's in prison for were two hundred years, why wouldn't he just say that. Yeah, So I have to believe that David Cam is innocent and Charles Boney is guilty. I think I believe that too, But I am bothered by a few things, Like I don't like I kind of David Camp said it there at the end. I wish I knew why, Like what was how did he end up there?

1:15:18 Yeah? No, I agree to like what is the motive? And it's not like it was they live in a rural community, they lived on Lockhart Road. It was yeah, very strange that he ended up there. Yeah, I wish I just wish I had an explanation for that. But I certainly can't look at any of the evidence and say that David Cam likely was involved. It just doesn't make sense. And like you said, if David Cam hired him to do it, then why wouldn't he have said that? I would have actually been that would have been more believable to me if Boney had come out and said, yeah, David Cam hired me to do it and I did it right, But he didn't say. That say that, So yeah, I just I'm surprised he didn't say that. I am to it well. Saying that he would have been admitting that he killed them, even if he even if he claimed it was someone hiring him to do it.

1:16:06 So he you know, I can see why he didn't say that because he wanted to get acquitted. So even if you're a hitman, you're still going to go to prison for murdering three people. Yeah, the timing is weird too, because he must have been waiting at seven point thirty when they got home, and you know, the kids were still strapped into their their car seats, and yeah, timing is strange. Yeah what was he doing there? Why was he there? You know, I forgot. I do have one possible connection. Okay, So Debbie Kim's sister, I believe her in laws owned like a store, like a butcher shop maybe, and it was thought that maybe Kim had gone in there, and.

1:16:50 Maybe maybe he followed them. Charles Boney had seen her in there. I mean, Kim was a pretty. Lady and so maybe he followed them back and possible. Or he liked her shoes or whatever it was, right. Yeah, that would make at least a little bit of sense. Do you think the evidence of adultery should have been allowed? I kind of do. I mean, if if they were prosecuting him and their theory was he wanted to get rid of his wife, then that would that would point to a motive for why he wanted to get rid of her. So it does make sense to me. But I'm not a lawyer, and I don't you know, I don't understand quite why some things are allowed and some things aren't. Do you think blood spatter analysis is junk science?

1:17:32 We've talked about it before. I I'm not an expert. I'm not a scientist, but from everything I've read, it does seem like it's pretty questionable. I don't know. I've watched the show Dexter enough to know that, you know, he was really good at it. But I think there's some points it can be useful. But if you're jumping to too many conclusions. Based on that, yeah, yeah, because I mean you can definitely look at blood as evidence and say, well, this must have been a result of this happening or that happening, But to base too much on it is probably not a good idea. Blood Spatter evidence is often labeled as junk science, primarily due to its vulnerability to human interpretation. Inconsistent training, and the absence of standardized procedures can lead to flawed conclusions.

1:18:22 In two thousand and nine, a report from the National Academy of Sciences raised concerns about the scientific rigor of various forensic practices, including blood spatter analysis, highlighting that there is frequently a lack of sufficient scientific validation. While blood spatter analysis can be a valuable too in crime scene investigations, it becomes problematic when experts extend their conclusions beyond the evidence, relying on subjective opinions and biased research rather than objective data. This issue is particularly concerning when such opinions are presented as facts in court. Said one more thing that I wanted to say. There is no justice for victims if an innocent person is put in jail. While it's the prosecutor's responsibility to solve a crime and secure a conviction, it's equally important to identify the actual perpetrator. Simply closing the case without ensuring the right person is convicted leads to two injustices. No matter what David cam does for the rest of his life. Some people will see him as a man who sexually abused his daughter and killed his wife and two children.

1:19:30 Very Well said, I couldn't agree with you more. It really drives me crazy when people are just want to get a conviction, even if it's not the right person. It's like, that doesn't help, It's not justice. Yeah, David was not treated as innocent until proven guilty. Right. He was treated as a guilty man from the get go. Don't like David. I don't think he's the best person, but I do think he was innocent. Yeah, I do too. That was some of the things that conflicted me in this case, because I really didn't like him, and there were so many things that bothered me about his behavior that I wanted him to be guilty. But the more we went on in this case, I'm like, yeah, he's just there's just nothing to point to him, right.

1:20:11 I wanted to mention my sources. Well, I have a lot of sources. But I did read a book called One Deadly Night, A State Trooper, triple homicide and a Search for Justice by John Klatt from two thousand and seven. That was a good book. There's another book written by a man named Gary Dunn from twenty twenty two. His book is called Their Bloody Lies and Persecution of David cam Part One. I only read this sample. I wish I would have been able to read the whole book, but I'd already read the other book. And when I saw when I was initially doing my research it said part one. It's like, well, I don't want to read a book that's just a part one and part two hasn't been released yet. But the book by John Glatt actually stopped after the first trial. Oh, okay, I have an interesting story from Gary Dunn. I did read this sample of his book. Gary Dunn is a twenty seven year career FBI man who worked on David's case as an investigator. He says that he worked on David's case for over three thousand hours. He was talking to his wife one day about the evidence in the case, and she saw a picture of Kim's foot and she said, well, that looks like someone stomped on her foot, and he said, oh, you're right, it does. And she noticed that Kim's, like tonyail polus was chipped, and she said, well, that fella had a foot fetish, didn't he? And Gary said yeah, And then she said, well, I bet he was angry

1:21:41 when he took her shoe off and saw that her you know, she wasn't taking care of her feet and her toes. Wow. Interesting, Now I was like, oh, that's so smart. That's not something I would have picked on right on me either. If you remember back to the first episode, David did have another daughter named Whitney, and Whitney sat behind the prosecution at the trial and she said he was guilty. And I don't have any more information about that. So I hope that they repair their relationship. Yeah, yeah, that would be really sad if not. I know this is going long, but we always like to lead you with us something that's not true crime.

1:22:22 A lot of listeners always talk about like, oh, you guys have such a nice relationship, and we really do. We've been married for a long time. I don't think it's always been like super easy. But we're also living in this time where our kids are pretty much they're pretty much grown, We're financially stable. We just don't have as much to argue about as we used to write. Fair We are not experts and this is just for entertainment purposes. But I'm going to read you a couple of advice column things, and I just want to hear what you have to say. Okay, okay. The first one is from the Washington Post, Dear Carolyn, Every morning, my husband feeds our baby, and every morning he leaves the high chair dirty. It's it's not just this. There are several other instances where I have to clean up after him. For example, when he changes our kids, he'll throw their old clothes aside for me to fold later.

1:23:08 When he gives them a bath, he'll leave their towels out for me to put away. When he feeds them, he'll leave their plates on the counter for me to clean up and put away. I've repeatedly asked him to clean these things up and express that I find it disrespectful that he leaves them for me. He says that he just forgets, but it's every day. He also says he doesn't clean up because he wants to maximize his time with our kids. I'm a stay at home mom. We have a toddler and a baby, and he works. I don't know what to do to get him to clean up after himself. We've talked about it so many times, but it doesn't get done, and it seems like I'm the nagging wife. What should I do? What is your advice? You got me to provide advice? I am like the worst person that providing advice like this. I don't I don't hear what the problem is.

1:23:53 Just kidding, oh gosh, your sexist jokes. I mean, he needs to do better about cleaning up now. I think there is a middle ground here that you know, there's some level of compromise. I think sometimes in our relationship you are very neat and tidy, and I'm not a slob or anything, but I'm definitely not as particular as you about certain things. And I've tried to adapt, like I've you know, tried to basically say, if there's something that is important to you, then I will try to do what I can. But at the same time, sometimes I'll push back on like that doesn't make any sense or that's silly. So when's the last time you pushed back? Well, I think we've gotten to a point where we, you know, we kind of understand where the where that line is drawn.

1:24:37 And you know, so I always a stay at home mom for for for a long time, and those baby toddler years are exhausting. And I think the key here is communication, Yes, always communication. Yeah, well I think that has all that has always been the key to our marriage, is like having open communication about things like that and having a fair division of labor because there are you know, things that just makes sense for one of us to do or the other one to do. And that's you're the way. You're looking at We have a fair division of labor, I think so. Oh okay, even after more than twenty years of marriage, I still don't think we do. But that's okay. Really, yeah, what do you think is not fair about that vision?

1:25:20 I do most of you know, the household chores? Well yeah you do. Yeah, but I do a lot of work at my job. Okay, Well until next time. Here's what I would I would say that to you know, this person and listeners, like men are trainable and women are. We all are trainable. And really you're like saying like you're not you're very conscientious. You're not. You're very actually compared to most men, I think that you're very neat. You're pretty considered. I've come a long way over the years. I mean, before you knew me, I was I was a big slob. Well, like you put your laundry where it goes and things like that. And if I ever ask you like, I can say, well, I do all the laundry and I do all you know, and I could list the things that I do that you don't. But the one thing that you do which is very considerate is you will often ask if I need help, And if I am feeling overwhelmed and I need help, I still can say would you do X Y or Z or can you go pick up the groceries from Meyer or whatever it is? And you're always great about that. So, yeah, we're not perfect. We still have our little, you know, squabbles, but you know, at the end of the day, I think that it's communication and it's sometimes you have to let things go. So to this mom, I would be like, okay, maybe you should have you know, I'll clean up the bathroom after the baths and you can clean up the kitchen after because I know she's exhausted, but still, you

1:26:50 know your husband's exhausted too, he's worked all day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just having some clarity around who's responsible for what and having an agreement on it. I think that would go a long way to help. Okay, I had another one, but I think we've gone pretty long already. This is a long episode. Thank you so much for your support, Thank you for listening. Without you, our listeners, there would be no podcast. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free episodes and a monthly bonus episode until next time.

1:27:31 Don't kill your wife, Don't Kill your husband. Companion the c