Nov. 4, 2024

Kim and David Camm - Part 2

Kim and David Camm - Part 2
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On September 28, 2000, David Camm returned home from a night of playing basketball with friends to find his wife and two young children brutally murdered. Despite his 10-year career as an Indiana State Trooper, suspicion quickly fell upon him due in part to a botched investigation of the crime scene. What followed is an unbelievable 13-year legal battle as David fought to prove his innocence.

Today's snack: Reese's brownies

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Hi.

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I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you?

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I'm doing good?

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Are you you came back for part two? I really

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you would.

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Excited about part two because I'm really intrigued by this case.

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Yeah, me too. It's a really good one.

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Yeah.

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We are recording this on October twentieth, but it will

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release on November fourth. We are a little ahead of

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the game.

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Yes, which is good.

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It is good.

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Did you have any weird dreams last night?

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I don't know. I didn't.

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Why, Well, last night we went to the Terrified Forest,

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which was super fun.

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That was fun.

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We do that.

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We don't do it every year, but it's just.

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This haunted forest.

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We live really close to Hell, Michigan is h E

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L L Michigan, and it used to be in Hell,

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but they moved it to the next town over, so

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it's a little closer to us. But it's yeah, it's fun.

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It's just what it sounds like.

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You just take a walk through the forest and people

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randomly jump out at you with chainsaws and stuff like that.

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And the scary thing is every year, because there's multiple

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people chasing you with a chainsaw, we're always scared that

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someone you know, just happened.

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I always think if you were a psycho killer, that

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would be the perfect place to go, right, because no

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one's gonna suspect.

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It, right.

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So it is really a terrifying experience. But then we

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came home and we watched a scary movie.

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We did a recommendation from one of our Yeah.

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It was it was. I thought that was pretty good.

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It was called Wrong Turn, and there's like six more.

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You know, I had never even heard of it, and

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there's a whole bunch of them, but it was. Yeah,

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it was very good.

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Yeah, I enjoyed it. Think Cindy for the recommendation. I

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know one of the reasons you returned was because I

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promised you are really good.

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You've been talking up this snack quite a bit, so

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I am. I hope my expectations aren't set too HART

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going to be pretty excited, Okay, I can't wait to

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see it. The unveiling. Oh, it's a it's a brownie.

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It's a some type of brownie.

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Uh yeah, it's a Reese's brownie.

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Oh my goodness.

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Wow, it's like a homemade brownie. And then there's a

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layer of peanut butter frosting, a layer of chocolate frosting,

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and then some chopped up riese is on top.

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Man, this looks like my dream dessert.

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Right, that's what I thought. Okay, good, all right, Well

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let's take a quick break and you can try it.

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What did you think.

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Well, I'm just going to say, in the two years

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that we've been podcasting, that is probably the number one

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snack ever.

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Wow.

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It's like, oh, so good, so good.

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I'm so glad you liked it. It's kind of your

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sweetest Day gift because yesterday was. But yeah, I knew

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you would like them.

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Yeah, just amazing.

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It's a recipe from Little Luna Reese's Brownies. We will

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put the link in show notes. But yeah, if you

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are a fan of chocolate and peanut butter together, you

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definitely need to make this recipe. Yeah, for sure, tenn

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out super decadent. But I would give it a ten

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out of ten too. They're really good. Yes, it's worth

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the extra effort because you have to kind of make

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a couple of different layers. But yeah, they're delicious, So

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glad you liked them. Would you like to give us

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a brief recap?

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I sure would. On September twenty eight, two thousand, David

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cam returned home from a night of playing basketball with

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friends to find his wife and two young children brutally murdered.

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Despite his tenure career as an Indiana State trooper, suspicion

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quickly fell upon him due in part to a botched

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investigation of the crime scene. David had a history of

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affairs and entanglements and abused his power as a state trooper,

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which maybe another reason that suspicion landed on him.

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Yes, David was being shut out of the investigation and

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it was driving him crazy. He called old trooper friends

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to ask how it was going and if he would suspect,

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but everyone was tight lipped. On October first, two thousand,

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three days after the murders, David was interviewed by detectives

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Mickey Neil and Daryl Gibson for a second time at

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the Sellersburg State Police Post, where he'd once worked. He

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has read his rights at the beginning of the interview,

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as David had done hundreds of times before to other suspects.

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He was unaware that the detectives were sitting on a

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probable cause affidavit for his arrest, signed by a judge

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just that afternoon. Much of the affidavit would later be

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disproven or inaccurate, and will read it. In just a

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couple of minutes, the detectives allowed David to once again

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recount his version of events from the night of the murders.

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They stopped him, turned off the camera, and told him

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that he was the only suspect and the evidence from

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the investigation supported him as the perpetrator. During the interview,

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David admitted he had been messaging a sixteen year old

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cheerleader in Florida, but he said he was just warning

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her not to talk to strangers on the internet.

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Okay, sure, David, are.

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You questioning his do gooder ship?

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There?

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I I am questioning it just a little bit.

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Yeah.

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David was questioned about a driver's license that was found

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in his house from a woman who lived in Kentucky.

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He said he'd taken it from a man he arrested.

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The woman was a stripper in Lexington. David said he

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was worried for her welfare and he had tried to

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track her down at strip clubs, but he'd never found her.

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He really is a good samaritan. He's warning sixteen year

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old girls about talking to strangers on the internet. He's

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helping strippers out. What a guy.

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He's great. When the detectives questioned whether or not he'd

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given Brad CPR, David devolved into an emotional religious diatribe, quote,

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as God is my witness, I'm being persecuted. Jesus came

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to save us, you know, That's why he was here.

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And all people had to do was listen. And they're

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the ones that are persecuted. All they had to do

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was open themselves up, selves up and listen to his message. Mickey,

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persecute me, And if it's because I gave my son's CPR,

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then so be it. My wife and I never fought,

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We never argued. She loved me and I loved her,

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and we loved our children, and our children were perfect

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little angels.

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What a bizarre response to a simple question about whether

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he had given his son CPR. Very strange.

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He asked to leave the station, but instead he was

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arrested and taken to the Floyd County jail, where he

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was placed on suicide watch. Later he was put in

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solitary confinement for his own protection against the other prisoners,

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because you know, as a state trooper, it can be dangerous.

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We're going to read the probable cause AFFI David, because

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it does become controversial in the years to come. Okay,

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and it is rather brief. I am a detective with

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the Indiana State Police. On the twenty eighth day of

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September two thousand, I was called to David R. Camp's

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residence at seventy five thirty four Lockhart Road, Georgetown, Floyd County, Inea, Indiana,

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where I found three people who had been shot Kimberly

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Caam thirty five, Bradley camhed seven, and Jillkam, age five.

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The following evidence has been processed from the crime scene

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at the above mentioned address. One, the crime scene was

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manipulated by use of high pH cleaning substance. Two, the

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T shirt worn by David Rkam on the above mentioned

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date had high velocity blood mist, which occurs in the

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presence of gunshot at the time of the shooting. Three,

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the cleaning substance was thrown over the back deck of

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the above mentioned house, also leaving a trail from the

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garage area along with the transfer of blood on the house.

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Four A witness said that between nine fifteen and nine

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thirty PM, she heard three distinct sounds that can be

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interpreted as gunshots. Five jillcamh five had a recent tear

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in the vaginal area consistent with sexual intercourse. Six is

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a wet mop bucket and the utility room of the

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house of the above mentioned address with a strong odor

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of bleach. Seven witnesses playing basketball with David Rkam said

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that he left the game at or around nine p m.

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And David Rkam told them that he was headed to

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his house the above mentioned crime scene. Eight there was

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a flow of blood from the garage that is inconsistent

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with the viscosity of blood and was aided in its

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flow by the presence of water and cleaning substance. Nine

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Kimberly Cam and Jilcam were killed by gunshot wounds to

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the head from a certain thirty eight caliber firearm. Ten

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Bradleykam was shot in the chest, which exited in Bradley's back,

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eventually killing Bradley Caam. The above mentioned information was gleaned

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from the statements of reports made to me by Tracy

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Corey Handy, MD, Dora Hunsacker, MD, both pathologists, and Robert

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Stite's crime scene reconstructionist. I made these statements not as

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a complete recital of all facts, but to establish probable cause,

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all of which gives me probable cause to believe that

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David Rkam has committed murder in Floyd County, State of Indiana,

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signed Sean clements. So this was all three days after

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the murders. It seems like it was very rushed and

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the investigation wasn't as complete as it could have been.

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Yeah, usually they take their time on these things because

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they want to make sure they get.

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It right, especially being a police officer. Now we're going

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to read to the prosecutor's theory of what happened on

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the night of September twenty eighth. Floyd County prosecutor stand

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Faith alleged that David and Kim got into a heated

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argument after she accused him of a blasting. Five year

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old Jill Kim was shot above her left ear at

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point blank range as she was getting out of her

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Ford Bronco. The bullet shot from a thirty eight caliber

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gun passed through her brain and exited on the right

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side of her head. Microscopic droplets of blood spatter landed

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on David's shoes. Rad quickly unbuckled and do into the

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cargo area of the bronco, but David shot him through

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his left shoulder. The bullet tore through his shoulder and

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rib Jill was still in her car seat. She was

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shot on the right side of her forehead. The bullet

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went through her brain and exited near her left ear. Kim,

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Brad and Jill likely lived for several minutes before they

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died in the garage. The garage door was left open.

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The front of David's Indiana State Trooper T shirt was

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covered in blood spatter. It was such a fine miss

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that it was hard to see with the naked eye.

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The shooting took only a few minutes, and he was

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able to return to the basketball game without anyone noticing

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that he'd left. Prosecutors claimed that he stashed the murder

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weapon somewhere between his house and the church. After the game,

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David returned home at nine to twenty five PM and

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staged and cleaned the scene. He removed Kim's pants to

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make it look like a sexual assault. He mopped up

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some of the blood using bleach. So their account is

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that David left the basketball game.

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Yeah, that's interesting because I remember from part one you

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said that nobody, nobody remembered him leaving. Right, People that

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he was with thought he was there the whole time.

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Yeah, but eleven people there, would it.

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Have been possible that he could have left him he

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was sitting out.

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He did again, and he he lived exactly six minutes

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from the church. Okay, so that's twelve minutes. He's a

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good shot. He could have.

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He could have, but he would have had a time

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at exactly when Kim and the kids were get were

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they coming back?

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They were coming home, coming home from Brad's swim lesson, right,

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and it was I think a twenty minute drive from

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their house to the swim lesson, So you know he

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knew their schedule.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, But there were also white eyewitnesses there that said

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he never left, right, But the eyewitnesses were all, you know,

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friends and family.

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But he would have had to have been gone for

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at least probably fifteen minutes.

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Right, he said, at a very minimum fifteen minutes. Yeah,

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And you know, he was a good shot, and you know,

246
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how long would it take to you know, shoot three bullets?

247
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Right?

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I am the clean up of the crime scene. And

249
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I we talked about this last episode. I don't understand

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the motive to clean up the crime scene.

251
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Yeah, why would anyone clean it doesn't It doesn't make

252
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a whole lot of sense.

253
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And would he would have blood spatter on his clothes,

254
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you know, just a little bit, a little bit of

255
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the blowback, and it was on his shoes and such.

256
00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.759
And it was the shirt that he was wearing at basketball.

257
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It was the same shirt.

258
00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:26.039
Okay, but it's possible that all he had on the

259
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shirt at that point was this fine mist of blood

260
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spatter that maybe wasn't even visible to the naked eye.

261
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I think that's what they're trying to say, is Okay,

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that's the high velocity missed. And if you remember, there

263
00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:39.440
are only eight spots, so he could have missed it.

264
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He could have thought, oh, yeah, I'm clean, I can

265
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go back to the game.

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Yeah.

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The next day, at the arrangement, bail was denied. The

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prosecutor announced that he had not decided if he would

269
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pursue the death penalty. David's family and Kim's family initially

270
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stuck by him, but soon the two families diverged and

271
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became bitter rivals. Sam Lockhart, David's uncle, his brother Donnie,

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his sister Julie, were his strongest supporters, both financially and emotionally,

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and would be in the years that followed. David, shackled

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and dressed in an orange jumpsuit, was allowed to view

275
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the bodies of his family and say goodbye the night

276
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before their funerals at Graceland Baptist Church, likely a last

277
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special favorite granted to him by his fellow officers. Over

278
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one thousand people crowded the church. The next day, two

279
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.080
coffins sat at the altar. Brad and Jill were placed

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together holding hands. The relationship between Kim and David's family

281
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was already beginning to shift and become chilly. Sam, Donnie,

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and Julie had made and paid for the funeral arrangements

283
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.679
and were miffed that Janis and Frank Wren hadn't contributed,

284
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nor had they made an attempt to visit David and jail.

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David's sister Julie said the family felt torn at the funeral, quote,

286
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to me, it was surreal. I just remember sitting there

287
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and thinking why I was crying, whether I was crying

288
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for David or Kim, or Brad and Jill. The whole

289
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thing was we had to switch. And then there became

290
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that connotation that because we supported David, we didn't care

291
00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.960
about Kim, Brad and Jill. But our focus had to

292
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be on David. It had to because we couldn't save them,

293
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but we could help David. End quote.

294
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On October fifth, the investigation of the cam House was complete.

295
00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.960
The murder weapon was not found. In fact, it's never

296
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.360
been found. Sam Lockhart thought of David as a son

297
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.879
and was determined to prove his innocence. Not only did

298
00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:30.440
he secure an attorney and pay David's bills at his

299
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.519
own expense while he was jailed, but he researched and

300
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.720
investigated his case. On a Thursday in November, he insisted

301
00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.679
it had to be a Thursday to make the recreation identical.

302
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.240
Sam brought a thirty eight caliber gun to David's house.

303
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.039
He made sure DeBie was home and in the same

304
00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:48.879
area of the house that she had been on the

305
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.360
night of the murders. Sam shot the gun three times.

306
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.799
None of the relatives across the road heard the gun shots.

307
00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.720
Which is a little strange because he was like banging

308
00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:03.279
on the tailgate of his truck and someone heard that,

309
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:04.919
So that's kind of surprising.

310
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.639
Yeah, I would think a gun would be louder than

311
00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.120
someone banging on a truck.

312
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.759
But you know, Sam was trying to recreate the scene.

313
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:14.720
But the winds and you know, a lot of things

314
00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:15.720
can change.

315
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.519
A lot of variables there. Meanwhile, David had spent more

316
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.600
than five months in solitary confinement and it was making

317
00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.600
him highly emotional and depressed. He pleaded to be placed

318
00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.360
in general population. His request was granted, but he was

319
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.679
cautioned that it was at his own peril. Before the

320
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:38.120
first trial, Michael McDaniel, David's attorney, sent the Backbone sweatshirt

321
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.159
for testing at an independent lab.

322
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.120
If you recall from the first episode, there was a

323
00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:46.720
gray allegedly prisoned issued sweatshirt that was found in the

324
00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:51.200
crime scene that had the name or word backbone in

325
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.960
shark at the neck.

326
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.399
When the lab discovered a DNA profile, McDaniel contacted prosecutor

327
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.200
stand Faith and asked him to run it through CODIS,

328
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.080
the DNA database. As a defense attorney, McDaniel did not

329
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.919
have access to the system. He called stand Faith several

330
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.080
times for the results. Eventually, Faith said there was no match,

331
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:17.320
but Faith was lying to McDaniel. The DNA profile found

332
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:20.720
on the sweatshirt was never actually run through codis that's

333
00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:25.000
not cool. When forty eight hours asked prosecutor stand Faith

334
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.720
why the sweatshirt wasn't tested before David's first trial, he

335
00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:32.120
said he had requested testing, but quote, it didn't get run.

336
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.639
I think someone dropped the ball. Unquote, I think I

337
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.360
think he's passing the ball. When it was eventually tested,

338
00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.720
Kim and Brad's blood and DNA were discovered, but none

339
00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:48.080
of David's DNA. However, unknown DNA from two people and

340
00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.600
several unidentified hairs were found. Thinking the sweatshirt could belong

341
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.639
to a scorned lover, a parade of women whom David

342
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.600
had been involved with volunteered their DNA samples. No match

343
00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.679
was found. Unknown DNA was also found on Kim's sweater

344
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:08.160
pants and Jill's sweatshirt. A trial was originally scheduled for

345
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:10.599
March two thousand and one, but with the amount of

346
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.079
evidence in the case, that was a tight deadline for

347
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:17.640
both the defense and the prosecution. Indiana law states that

348
00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.400
a defendant must be brought to trial within six months

349
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.960
of being charged, unless the delay is caused by the defense.

350
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.279
In the weeks leading up to the trial, David's family

351
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.920
created a booklet outlining the reasons pointing to his innocence.

352
00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:33.720
They did not think David was getting a fair shake

353
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.960
from the media. They handed it out to the community

354
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.319
of potential jurors. A new Albany police officer participated in

355
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.200
the distribution. He was later suspended for four months without

356
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.759
pay for behavior unbecoming as an officer. As you can imagine,

357
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:54.119
the prosecutor was furious over what they called propaganda. The

358
00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.920
judge threatened to move the trial to a different county. Ultimately,

359
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.519
he decided to keep the trial in Floyd County, but

360
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.079
brought in jurors from a different county. So they handed

361
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:07.160
this booklet out to like people that were coming into

362
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.240
the courtroom to potentially.

363
00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.880
Be No, it wasn't then, but they were just handing them.

364
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:14.839
Out of everybody in the community who could have been.

365
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.720
You know, not everybody, but yeah they were. But was

366
00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.400
that any worse than you know, editorials that were being

367
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.319
run or you know, the the media did seem slanted

368
00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.079
or biased against David.

369
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:30.400
Yeah, sounds like it. The judge delayed the trial several

370
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.519
times at the request of the defense. The prosecution was

371
00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.240
accused of not handing over discovery fast enough. The New

372
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.640
Albany Tribune ran an editorial criticizing Floyd County for delaying

373
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.000
the trial multiple times, leaving cam to sit in jail

374
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.599
for a year and costing taxpayers four hundred thousand dollars.

375
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.480
The blood spatter experts alone cost nearly one hundred and

376
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.920
ten thousand dollars, plus an additional eight thousand dollars for

377
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.759
their expert testimony. The day after the article ran, the

378
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:04.480
unplussed judge delayed the trial once again until January due

379
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.240
to travel delays experienced by expert witness depositions after nine

380
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.359
to eleven. Nine to eleven also delayed the results of

381
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.000
some of the DNA tests. Janis and Frank Wren spoke

382
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.720
with the media before the trial. They had tried to

383
00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.559
reserve judgment until the investigation was complete, but now they

384
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.480
publicly stated that they thought David was guilty. A meeting

385
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:30.000
with prosecutor stand Faith had swayed their opinion. Frank said, quote,

386
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.960
there's no doubt in my mind David did it. It's

387
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.440
kind of hard to accept. I mean, of all people,

388
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:39.400
David would do this. The Wrens found the blood evidence

389
00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.640
particularly damning. Public opinion had shifted against David and his

390
00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.640
family as well. Many thought the cam Lockhart family acted

391
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:51.960
entitled and arrogant and were covering up for David. Even Whitney,

392
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.599
David's daughter from his first marriage to Tammy, now eighteen,

393
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.079
turned her back on him and her family. She and

394
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.440
Tammy both thought he was guilty. In a major blow

395
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.160
to the defense, the judge ruled that evidence of David's

396
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:09.079
extramarital affairs would be allowed into evidence. While he was

397
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.759
in jail, a corrections officer accused David of propositioning her

398
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.559
even behind bars, accused of killing his family. He couldn't

399
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.480
resist being a complete scoundrel. Scoundrel that's a good word.

400
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.160
I don't use that word enough anymore.

401
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:24.799
Well, it's a good word to describe David.

402
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.720
Yeah. At one hearing, David's attorney filed an official alibi

403
00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.880
plea signed by the eleven men who he'd played basketball with,

404
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.200
confirming he was with them the entire night of September

405
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:35.759
twenty eighth.

406
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.519
Isn't that crazy? So eleven people are saying, we're his alibi.

407
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.480
He never left the game, but yet it went.

408
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:46.400
On, And the prosecution's theory pretty much relied on the

409
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:48.640
fact that he must have left the basketball game at

410
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.240
some point right. He couldn't have done it before.

411
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.240
Initially they were thinking that, oh, maybe it happened that

412
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.440
when he got home, right, but then they realized that

413
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.720
that wasn't enough time. There's another piece of evidence that

414
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:05.039
will be revealed at trial that also disrupts the timeline.

415
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.359
Judge Richard Strigel presided over the trial. Prosecutor stand Faith,

416
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.759
who'd been the Floyd County prosecutor for sixteen years, was

417
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:16.279
facing a tight reelection battle as a Democrat and a

418
00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:21.119
predominantly Republican county. Winning a high profile case was crucial

419
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:24.279
to his re election campaign. Word on the street was

420
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.640
that Faith had strong armed the investigation and made sure

421
00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:31.920
David cam stayed in jail. Finally, on January seventh, two

422
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.000
thousand and two, fifteen months after Kim, Brad and Jill

423
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:39.200
were laid to rest, jury selection began in Johnson County, Indiana,

424
00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:43.799
about two hours northeast of New Albany, near Indianapolis. The

425
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:46.680
jury made up of seven women, five men, plus three

426
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:50.519
alternates were to be sequestered at a nearby holiday inn

427
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.359
Monday through Thursday and Floyd County. They were allowed to

428
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.039
return home to Johnson County for the weekend. That's a

429
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.599
huge inconvenience for a group of people to not only

430
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.759
be jurors only, but to leave your family and job and.

431
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:08.599
To make them stay on a holiday in you know, well,

432
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:09.880
we could have done a little better.

433
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.799
Maybe, Oh well, holiday is it up to your standards?

434
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:15.839
You know, I'm a Marriott guy.

435
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.839
Marriott if you're out there, Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

436
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.440
At five am, curious residents began lining up outside the courthouse,

437
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.480
braving the frigid temperatures, hoping to snag one of the

438
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:31.799
eighty seats available to the public. Some days, up to

439
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.680
thirty people were turned away. The courtroom had an official

440
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.160
capacity of ninety three. A crew from forty eight Hours

441
00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:42.599
and eleven other media outlets were guaranteed seats, as were

442
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.799
the families. Kim's family sat behind the prosecutor's table along

443
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.119
with Tammy and Whitney, while the cam Lockhart family sat

444
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.559
behind David and the defense table. Many members of both

445
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.759
families would be called to testify. They weren't allowed into

446
00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.680
the courtroom as spectators until after their testimony. Weeks to come,

447
00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:05.000
both families learned some shocking things about David cam First

448
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:09.359
up was the prosecution. During opening arguments, Deputy Prosecutor Susan

449
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:13.119
Orth delivered a surprising claim that David had not arrived

450
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:17.079
at the church to play basketball before seven pm. She

451
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.400
had proof that he had still been home as late

452
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.200
as seven nineteen pm. Phone records proved that he made

453
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.599
a call from his home at that time. If you remember,

454
00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.119
he allegedly was one of the first people there before seven.

455
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.640
Before the church was unlocked. The defense delivered a three

456
00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.599
hour opening statement. Mike McDaniel made damning allegations about the

457
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:42.519
Indiana State Troopers. He compared the atmosphere among the troopers

458
00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:46.559
to a locker room. An initiation required participating in sexual

459
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:51.440
competitions and bragging about one's conquests. They're saying here that

460
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.960
David's inappropriate behavior wasn't unique to him, it was just

461
00:23:55.319 --> 00:24:00.759
the atmosphere. When the basketball players all testified and reinforced

462
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.400
the notion that eyewitness testimony is the worst evidence, they

463
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.079
all signed the affidavit that David had been there that night,

464
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.839
but they had different memories from the night. Some said

465
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.319
David played every game, and some said it was possible

466
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.119
he had sat out a game at seven point thirty

467
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:18.119
and slipped out of the gem unnoticed. Two weeks into

468
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.759
the trial, the jurors took a field trip and actually

469
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.640
saw the church gym. Thirteen women whom David had affairs

470
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:28.640
or hookups with, including the wife of a fellow trooper, testified.

471
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.039
His conservative family was shocked when they realized the extent

472
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.359
of his infidelity and disrespect towards women. They viewed him

473
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.559
as a dedicated family man. Uncle Sam said, quote, he

474
00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:43.160
was an adulterer, and he was not a very good husband,

475
00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:45.319
and I'm not very proud of him for what he did,

476
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.440
but that does not make him a murderer end quote.

477
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.039
While his family's support was unflinching, the jury looked at

478
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.920
Cam with disgust. A DNA expert testified that there was

479
00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:58.640
no DNA match on the mop or bucket that the

480
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.720
prosecution claimed was used to the crime scene, so it

481
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.200
was just a mop and a bucket. There was no

482
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.759
blood evidence on it, so it hadn't been used to

483
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.200
clean OK. Got it further, DNA testimony revealed that there

484
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:13.720
was plenty of unknown DNA at the crime scene, including

485
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.880
on Jill and the children's clothing and the backbone sweatshirt.

486
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:24.079
Stits and Englert, remember the blood expert guys well experts.

487
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.599
They were both key witnesses at the trial. Stites testified

488
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:31.119
that he was a crime scene reconstructionist and was working

489
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:36.160
towards a PhD in fluid dynamics. Stan Faith repeatedly called

490
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:41.599
Stit's professor. Stites also claimed to have investigated crime scenes

491
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.799
for the military and the FBI. None of this was true.

492
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:50.279
Stites was never a crime scene reconstructionist and never studied

493
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:54.119
fluid dynamics. He never took a single course in fluid

494
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:58.880
dynamics or crime scene reconstruction. In college. He took one

495
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.759
chemistry class that he failed. His degree is in economics.

496
00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.480
He wasn't even familiar with the scientific method. The cam

497
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:09.400
crime scene was the first that he ever investigated.

498
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.039
It's just insane that he would testify it. I mean,

499
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.440
he could be charged with perjury.

500
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.440
Right, but he was not.

501
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:16.160
Wow.

502
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.400
Rod Eingler, a former homicide detective turned forensic expert, was

503
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.359
the final witness for the prosecution. The jury had been

504
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:27.119
subjected to days and days of long winded expert witnesses.

505
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.240
Engler was a compelling witness who had worked on several

506
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.119
high profile cases, including the O. J. Simpson case and

507
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:38.839
the Selena Quintania case. He testified over several days he

508
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:41.880
was one hundred percent certain that the eight tiny spots

509
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.279
on David's T shirt were the result of high velocity

510
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.480
blood spatter and confirmed that David shot the gun that

511
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.559
killed Kim, Brad and Jill. During cross examination, McDaniel was

512
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.279
able to discredit the expert's education and credibility, highlighting the

513
00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:01.039
lack of certification of blood spatter science. The defense believes

514
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.960
that if the stains came from high velocity bloods better,

515
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:07.319
there would be more than eight spots. David would have

516
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.079
been covered in blood, his clothing, his face, and hands.

517
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:14.039
They contended that when David reached over Jill to pull

518
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.640
Brad from the cargo area, that he brushed up against

519
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:20.960
Jill's hair that contains tiny specks of blood. That was

520
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.519
my thought too, Like, I don't think eight spots of

521
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.960
you know, the microscopic I don't think that would indicate

522
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:30.519
very much. You would think, you know, there would be

523
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:32.319
much more blowback than just eight tiny spots.

524
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:33.160
Yeah, you would think that.

525
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.680
After twenty six days and eighty four witnesses, the prosecution

526
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:47.680
rested their case. We'll be back after a break. Well

527
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:53.640
that was some bathroom break. Yeah, five days later, we're back.

528
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:56.480
You know, sometimes you take a break and you just

529
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:57.039
enjoy it.

530
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.279
I don't know what happened. I think it was Sunday

531
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.200
that we were recording. We were just like, ah, let's

532
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.880
just take the down. There must have been a football

533
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:06.160
game on you wanted to see.

534
00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:07.559
Probably, Yeah, we're back.

535
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:08.400
Now, we're back.

536
00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.480
Despite the ongoing trial, the cam Lockhart family was still

537
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.799
helping David's defense in any way they could. Sam and

538
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.000
Downie focused on the call the prosecution alleged that David

539
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.680
had made at seven to nineteen pm on the night

540
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.319
of the murders. They knew that David was at the

541
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.960
church playing basketball, They had seen him. They discovered that

542
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:31.160
there was a discrepancy in Verizon's system because of daylight

543
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:36.400
saving time and Indiana's confusing time zones. Indiana does have confusing.

544
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:36.720
It really does.

545
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:40.640
The call had actually been made at six nineteen pm,

546
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.640
in a significant setback for the prosecution. Mike McDaniel called

547
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:49.319
David Eschweiler from Verizon to testify. He admitted that Verizon

548
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:50.359
had made an error.

549
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.759
Isn't that unbelievable. That's a huge.

550
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:55.400
Error, that is it? Yeah, that's crazy.

551
00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:58.680
The whole case hinged on it. There must have been

552
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:02.440
an audible gasp courtroom when that testimony was happening.

553
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.519
It would be what they call a Perry Mason moment.

554
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:05.839
Yeah.

555
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:10.599
Prosecutor stand Faith later told reporters how disappointed he was, quote,

556
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.759
we relied on their word and they all of a

557
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:13.920
sudden go back on it.

558
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:15.279
Any Horizon right.

559
00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:19.079
The defense argued that the blood evidence was paltry, only

560
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:23.039
eight microscopic spots on David's shirt. They hired their own

561
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:27.359
blood spatter expert, Terry Labor, for eighty thousand dollars. Sam

562
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.000
Lockhart paid his steep fee. He refuted almost all of

563
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:35.440
the prosecution expert's findings. The blood on David was from transfer,

564
00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:39.119
not high velocity spatter. Of the eight spots on the

565
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.960
T shirt, only four had been tested. During cross examination,

566
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:46.279
the prosecution attempted to discredit the expert witness.

567
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:51.200
For every expert witness, there's an opposing expert witness, and

568
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.839
as a as a juror. I'm not sure how you

569
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:54.559
weighe through that.

570
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.000
I know, I don't know how you do either. And

571
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.359
blood spatter science is a little bit questionable anyway, right

572
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.599
for sure, So it's a tough one. Bart Epstein, another

573
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:07.279
blood spatter expert, said, quote, gunshot will produce hundreds of

574
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.240
stains coming back. I've never seen. I believe the other

575
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.000
experts for both the prosecution and the defense have indicated

576
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.240
that they've never seen just seven small or eight small

577
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:21.480
stains from a gunshot. I've never seen that. Unquote, he

578
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:24.119
was able to reproduce similar blood stains on a T

579
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:25.559
shirt using wig hair.

580
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.319
That's one component of the case that I've had a

581
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:31.720
hard time with too. They're calling it high velocity blood spatter,

582
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.440
but there's only eight specs, and you would think that

583
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:37.759
they were, you know, to call it high velocity blood spatter,

584
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.359
there would have to be much more right. And so

585
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.000
they were able to recreate these little spots by using

586
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:45.200
wig hair.

587
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.960
So he's saying this could have happened from him handling

588
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:51.720
the bodies of his wife and children, that maybe.

589
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.000
He didn't really handle the bodies. Remember he got Brad

590
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.359
out of the back seat, and when he was leaning

591
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.039
over because it was only a two door Bronco and

592
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:02.279
had to lean over, and he leaned over and there

593
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:07.000
was blood in Jill's hair, and that's how the blood

594
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:07.839
was transferred, right.

595
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.640
Okay, So he's saying it could have happened in a

596
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.519
different way rather than just high velocity blood.

597
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:16.400
Spec Yes, but the other guys were one percent positive

598
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.279
that it could only be high velocity blood spatter.

599
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:22.359
The blood experts testified that the blood from the crime

600
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:25.640
scene was at least two hours old when David returned home.

601
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.519
The blood was dark, congealed, and had begun to break down.

602
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.559
What the prosecution called a cleaning agent was blood separating

603
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.079
into serum and blood cells and platelets. The nine to

604
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.200
twenty two timeline the prosecution proposed was impossible. They contended.

605
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.240
That's another important component of the case is what they

606
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.319
were calling cleaning fluid was literally just blood separating as

607
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:51.920
it does after it sits there at a crime scene

608
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.160
for a while. And these so called blood experts should

609
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:57.880
have been able to tell that the fact that they

610
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:00.000
called it cleaning fluid is crazy.

611
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.960
Yeah, And they're saying the time of death must have

612
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:06.119
been like seven or seven thirty something like that. So

613
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:08.039
definitely not nine or after.

614
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:11.799
Remember back to the probable cause affidavit, it said that

615
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:15.839
the murder happened between nine and nine thirty, And now

616
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:17.279
we realize that that's impossible, No.

617
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.400
Way that could have been. Yeah, Jill's vaginal trauma was

618
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.359
caused by a playground incident, not sexual abuse. The defense contended.

619
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:27.720
On the thirty sixth day of the trial, March seventh,

620
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.599
two thousand and two, David cam took the witness stand.

621
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:34.039
The judge had arranged for additional seating in a nearby

622
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.759
courtroom with a live, closed circuit TV feed to accommodate

623
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:41.480
additional spectators that day. It was very rare that the

624
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:44.680
defendant takes the stand in a trial like this, Definitely.

625
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.680
As the former state trooper took the stand, he looked

626
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:52.319
noticeably older, gaunt, and nervous. Gone was his cocky swagger.

627
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.920
After he was sworn in, before any questions were posed,

628
00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:59.799
he sobbed uncontrollably for several minutes as the shocked courtroom

629
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.839
in silence. After he gained his composure, he talked about

630
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.240
how he found his family on the night of September

631
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:09.400
twenty eighth. At first, when he saw Kim's body on

632
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:11.759
the garage floor. He thought it was Jill in her

633
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:15.599
dance tights because Kim's pants were removed. He had checked

634
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.920
her for a pulse and found her cool to the touch,

635
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.440
but Brad was still warm, so he pulled him out

636
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.839
and began CPR, but quickly felt the air coming out

637
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.640
of Brad's nose and he knew he was doing it wrong.

638
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.319
On the second day of David's testimony, he wobbled to

639
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.079
the stand and appeared to be under the influence of something.

640
00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.440
He admitted he had been taking an anti anxiety medication

641
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:40.279
daily since the murders and was plagued by constant migraines.

642
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:44.200
That day, he had also taken klonopin. A doctor was

643
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.720
called in to assess his ability to stand witness after

644
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:50.359
he was given a shot of imatrex for his migraine.

645
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.079
The trial continued. When asked by prosecutor Faith about his infidelities,

646
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.920
David said, quote, you can't make me feel any worse

647
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:03.079
than I already do about these things. On Wednesday, March thirteenth,

648
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:06.759
the fortieth day of the trial, the defense rested. Over

649
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.360
the nine weeks of the trial, one hundred eight witnesses

650
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.719
were called, and over four hundred exhibits were viewed. It

651
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:16.239
was the longest and most expensive trial in Floyd County history.

652
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:20.679
The judge gave everyone Thursday off to prepare for closing arguments.

653
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.199
Everyone involved was exhausted. I can't even imagine. Stan Faith

654
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.079
delivered a forty minute closing. He focused on David's infidelity

655
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:32.719
and how he took his family for granted. Mike McDaniel

656
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:37.039
highlighted the prosecution's lack of real evidence. The jury began

657
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:40.800
deliberations at one forty five pm. At eight fifteen pm,

658
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.039
they called it a day. They returned on Saturday for

659
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.280
day two. Their first vote was eight to four guilty,

660
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:51.119
then ten to two. The jury convened at eight thirty

661
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.360
pm and returned on Sunday morning. The two holdouts were immovable.

662
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:58.400
After four hours, they sent a note to the judge

663
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.960
declaring they were deadlocked and frustrated and angry. The four

664
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.480
person cautioned the judge it was clear that tensions had

665
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.519
reached a boiling point in the jury room. The judge

666
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.800
encouraged them to keep working. After dinner, one of the

667
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:15.239
holdouts shifted their decision to guilty, but one woman Judy

668
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.840
Price stuck to her guns. She told forty eight hours

669
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.800
quote there was a lot of yelling. I'm not comfortable

670
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.519
with the way I acted, unquote, but she's saying. She

671
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.760
was yelling just as everyone was bracing themselves for a

672
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:31.960
hung jury. At ten forty seven pm, the jury reached

673
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:36.159
a verdict after twenty nine hours of deliberation. It took

674
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:39.039
over an hour to assemble everyone in the courtroom. It

675
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.360
was after midnight when the verdict was read. The jury

676
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.039
filed in and not a single member looked at David,

677
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:48.440
never a good sign. He was found guilty of three

678
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:53.159
counts of first degree murder. David, barely audible, mumbled, but

679
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:57.360
I was playing basketball. Other members of his family yelled

680
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:01.360
at the jury. Julie, David's sister, yelled, no, no, no,

681
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.679
it's wrong. You know it's wrong. She was escorted by

682
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:06.039
bailiffs from the courtroom.

683
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:08.880
Do you think that a single juror that was holding

684
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.239
out felt pressure to change her mind?

685
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:11.639
Oh?

686
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:13.679
I'm sure she did. I think you know what goes

687
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.079
on in a jury room. You know there's a lot.

688
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.400
I'm sure there's a lot of debating and arguing, especially

689
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.519
in a case like this where people are have strong

690
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.679
opinions and disagree, and I would imagine someone could feel

691
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.639
a little bit bullied if they're the only person holding

692
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:28.559
out right. Yeah.

693
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.679
She said that one of the jurors that she felt

694
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:34.960
was a friend that she trusted, came to her and said,

695
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.079
I really think he's guilty, and I wouldn't steer you

696
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.480
in the wrong way if I felt differently, and that

697
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:44.320
was enough to swear at that point.

698
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.960
Really prosecutor stand faith said quote, they did a good job.

699
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.599
There is no reasonable doubt that he killed them. Unquote.

700
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:56.840
After the verdict, the families talked to the media. Julie said, quote,

701
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.320
I think someone caved in to what they believed in.

702
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.679
They caved into pressure from the other jurors. We have

703
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.840
a hard time believing that someone who thought he was

704
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.400
not guilty now believes that he's guilty. We will not

705
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:12.960
stop fighting David is an innocent man. Unquote. Kim's sister

706
00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.960
Debbie said, quote, we still don't have the kids back,

707
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.079
and we never will. We won't have Kim back in

708
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:20.760
our family and that can't be changed. But at least

709
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:25.159
he's not out unquote. Frank Wren, Kim's father, said he

710
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:28.719
was partially satisfied with the verdict. Quote, I know Kim

711
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.920
is looking down now, shaking her head at David cam

712
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:36.440
Eight days later, Amos Lockhart died at age ninety four.

713
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:39.400
His family thinks that he stayed alive to see his

714
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:42.920
grandson exonerated, and when he was found guilty, he died

715
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:43.880
of a broken heart.

716
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.239
We're not done here by a long shot. But do

717
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:48.760
you think that there's reasonable doubt?

718
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.880
I mean I kind of do. I think the blood

719
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.760
spatter evidence is definitely you could believe either way. I

720
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.719
think it's not definitive. The phone call thing is pretty

721
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:03.880
you know, it definitely makes the prosecution's case a lot weaker.

722
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.960
So yeah, I definitely have reasonable doubt here.

723
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:11.039
David's sentencing was held a month later. The maximum sentence

724
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:13.639
was one hundred and ninety five years, sixty five years

725
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.920
for each victim. Janis Run, Kim's mother, was the first

726
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:20.159
to read her victim impact statement. She said, quote, since

727
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.840
the night of September twenty eighth, two thousand, I have

728
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:26.360
felt mostly emptiness and pain. My pain came when I

729
00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:29.000
think about the brutal way they died. How scared they

730
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:32.119
must have been. She asked the judge to sentence David

731
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:36.159
to the maximum. Debbie Karam, Kim's sister, spoke next, quote,

732
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:38.639
all we ever wanted from you from the beginning of

733
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.519
this whole nightmare was truth, just the simple truth. I

734
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.000
don't feel you'll ever be mad enough or strong enough

735
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.639
to give us the closure that we really need. At

736
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.000
least we have the solace of knowing that we will

737
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:52.880
see Kim, Brad and Jill again, and you you'll have

738
00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:57.239
a far greater judgment day ahead. End quote. David addressed

739
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.159
Kim's family quote. You may have gotten your wish and

740
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.519
had me imprisoned in my body, but I will always

741
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:04.840
be free on the inside, and you can never take

742
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.320
that away from me. Regardless of where I am. I

743
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.559
can lie my head down in good conscious knowing that Kim,

744
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:13.760
Brad and Jill are walking this walk with me because

745
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.679
they know I am innocent, and God will strengthen me,

746
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:19.320
and I will endure this madness until I get a

747
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.840
fair and just judgment. Judge, you do what you want.

748
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.280
You can imprison my body, but you will have no

749
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:30.440
control over my spirit. End quote. Judge Richard Stragel sentenced

750
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.239
David to the maximum sentence one hundred and ninety five

751
00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:36.800
years in prison, not eligible for parole until he is

752
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:40.360
one hundred forty three years of age, he said quote.

753
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.000
By the murder of his wife and children, David Camp

754
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:48.000
demonstrated his complete disregard for civilized society In these cruel acts.

755
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:52.440
He exercised no restraint on his impulses and intentionally failed

756
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.400
to conform his conduct with law. Such behavior indicates there

757
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.039
is a risk that the defendant will commit another crime.

758
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:02.480
Civilized use people cannot identify with this kind of thinking

759
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:06.119
and behavior. These killings devastated and shattered the lives of

760
00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:10.000
all family members. The details of his testimony, his mannerisms,

761
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.159
and his demeanor on the stand were consistent with him

762
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:16.320
being guilty of the murders. The killing of a spouse

763
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:19.360
is certainly repugnant, but to kill one's own children is

764
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:23.840
something any civilized person would struggle with, even believing each

765
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.239
time the gun was fired, the defendant had the choice

766
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:30.119
to refrain from the act. He chose not to, and

767
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:33.599
Kim Brad and Jill's blood has convicted him. The court

768
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:38.000
finds that the crimes committed justify imposing the maximum sentence

769
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:42.159
end David was sent to the Indiana State Prison in

770
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:46.679
Michigan City, Indiana, a maximum security prison. He was placed

771
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:50.440
in a high risk group and given limited privileges. David

772
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.159
was said to be a model prisoner. David's attorney, Mike McDaniel,

773
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.800
filed an appeal citing thirteen issues from the trial, including

774
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.559
the admittance of evidence of David's exit marital affairs, the

775
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:05.440
alleged sexual abuse of Jill, trial errors made by the judge,

776
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.519
and the fact that several jurors spouses were allowed to

777
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:11.639
attend the trial and stay overnight with them at the

778
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:12.960
sequestered hotel.

779
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:14.039
That's strange.

780
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.079
On the second anniversary of the murders, the Rens filed

781
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:21.239
a wrongful death lawsuit against David. They were seeking punitive damages.

782
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.599
The four hundred thousand dollars life insurance money from Kim,

783
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.360
Brad and Jill sat in an Escor account until the

784
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:30.320
court ruled on what to do with the money. David

785
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:36.039
sued Backbone remember the Backbone sweatshirt for damages and emotional distress.

786
00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.880
In the lawsuit, he accused the Indiana State Police of

787
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:42.840
not following up on leads and having tunnel vision. I

788
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.800
know it's weird that he sued this mysterious stranger.

789
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.960
But okay, yeah, I was like his backbone a company

790
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.679
or what is now It's just you know, you file

791
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:56.800
a lawsuit against somebody if you don't know their identity,

792
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.840
that's really weird.

793
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:01.719
In August two thousand and four, three judge panel voted

794
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:06.960
unanimously to reverse David's sentence, specifically citing that Judge Richard

795
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.559
Striegel and prosecutors stand faith should not have allowed the

796
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:15.519
evidence of David's various affairs, entanglements, and inappropriate treatment of women.

797
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:18.079
That's interesting because that was out of all the things

798
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.159
you listed, that was the one. I'm like, that seems

799
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:21.639
like pretty relevant to me.

800
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:25.280
But it does seem like character witness testimony.

801
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:25.519
Right.

802
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.400
It's just always so strange what gets allowed and what

803
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:29.239
doesn't get allowed.

804
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:32.760
What it really is based on the judge's billing, Yeah,

805
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:36.760
the three judge panels said, quote, the trial court abused

806
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.119
its discretion in allowing the state to introduce evidence of

807
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.760
Cam's adulterous conduct. There was no evidence of a violent

808
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:47.599
or hostile relationship between Cam and his wife, nor any

809
00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.840
evidence that he ever threatened her with harm. Although we

810
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.639
are cognizant of the great financial and emotional expense invested

811
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:57.719
in the first nine week trial. We cannot allow these

812
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:01.679
convictions to stand end quote. Among the problems cited in

813
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:05.519
the twenty nine page opinion were David's slid alibi signed

814
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:09.599
by eleven eye witnesses, the unidentified DNA and the victims,

815
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:14.000
and the mystery backbone sweatshirt. As thrilled as David was,

816
00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:16.960
the Wren family was devastated and called it the nightmare

817
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:20.320
that just won't end. The Indiana Attorney General appealed the

818
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:23.880
decision to the Indiana Supreme Court, who refused to reverse

819
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:27.159
the decision of the appeals court, but gave Floyd County

820
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:30.239
the right to retry the case against David. Cam The

821
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.840
new prosecutor, Keith Henderson, stan Faith lost his re election bid,

822
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:39.079
forged a cold case unit to reinvestigate the murders. Quote.

823
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:41.599
It will be looked at with a new set of eyes.

824
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.519
I seek to have justice in this case. We will

825
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:48.800
be ready end quote. David was hopeful that the new prosecutor,

826
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.880
also a former Indiana state trooper, would not file new

827
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.719
charges against him, but Henderson soon announced his intent to

828
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.639
retry David, even though he was not able to use

829
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:04.760
David's infidelities against him, as prosecutor Sam faith had in

830
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.119
the first trial, Henderson had a new bombshell witness who

831
00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:12.320
claimed that David confessed to the murders in prison. The

832
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.360
second trial was scheduled for summer two thousand and five.

833
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:19.480
Both sides were hoping that advancements in DNA testing would

834
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.800
identify some of the unidentified evidence. While he awaited his

835
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:27.599
second trial, David was granted bail in January two thousand

836
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.280
and five, after spending nearly four years in jail. Sam

837
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:35.239
Lockhart rushed to the bank and happily paid the twenty

838
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:36.719
thousand dollars.

839
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:42.679
Bailed twenty thousand dollars for somebody accused of killing the murders.

840
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:44.360
That is the lowest bail I've ever heard.

841
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:45.639
That is crazy.

842
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.519
After his release from prison, David lived and worked with Sam.

843
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.079
In March two thousand and five, four and a half

844
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.679
years after the murders of Kim Brad and Jill cam

845
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.159
a thirty five year old man named Charles Bonnet was

846
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:02.880
arrested and charged with recounts a first degree murder. Boney,

847
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:07.159
an eleven time convicted felon, had a prison nickname. You'll

848
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:08.119
never guess what it is.

849
00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:10.840
Hmm, I can't even imagine backbone.

850
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:11.360
What.

851
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:14.960
During an interview, Bonet said, my name's backbone. All it

852
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:16.639
means is I'm not spiseless.

853
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:17.639
Okay.

854
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.159
The Indiana Department of Corrections actually has a database of

855
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:26.559
inmate nicknames, but prosecutor Stan Faith claimed he was not

856
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:30.199
aware of it. The name Backbone was not cross checked

857
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.480
with the Department of Corrections database to try and match

858
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:37.880
this the nickname Backbone to any prisoner that was currently

859
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:42.800
or previously in jail. Had they done that, it's possible

860
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:44.920
that this case could have been solved sooner.

861
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:47.800
And remind me why they thought that this sweatshirt might

862
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.960
have come from a prisoner, because why was that. It's

863
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:54.000
just that's what prisoners did, like write their name on

864
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:54.800
the inside.

865
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.960
Or One of the investigators at the scene said this

866
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.800
was a prison issued sweatshirt and maybe it was because

867
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:04.119
the name was on it, but David said it wasn't his.

868
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:04.719
Okay.

869
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.400
DNA from the Backbone sweatshirt and the palm print found

870
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:11.760
on Kim's ford bronco were matched to Bonet through the

871
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:16.119
National DNA database. Bone initially claimed that he had donated

872
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.480
the sweatshirt in a Salvation Army dropbox, and he had

873
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:24.079
never met David. Additional evidence against him included his DNA

874
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:28.519
under Kim's fingernails, Kim's sweater, underwear, and Jill's sweatshirt.

875
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.800
I always wondered about the DNA under her fingernails, because

876
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:33.760
ever since you said that, I think in part one

877
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.199
that there were signs of a struggle and that she

878
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:39.960
had DNA under her fingernails. I'm like, well, that should

879
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:40.960
give you the answer.

880
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.800
Right there, right Boney has a long rap sheet and

881
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.800
an extensive history of violence against women. Remember Kim's shoes

882
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:51.039
neatly placed on top of her bronco. Boney has a

883
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:55.599
fetish for women's feet and shoes. Kim had extensive bruising

884
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:58.039
on her feet. One of her feet looked like it

885
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:01.760
may have been stomped on. Attending the University of Indiana,

886
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:05.440
Bonet was known as the Shoe Bandit. In nineteen eighty nine,

887
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:08.079
he was convicted of three counts of robbery and one

888
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.679
count of attempted robbery for wrestling women to the ground,

889
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.800
beating them, and stealing one shoe. He was sentenced to

890
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.519
five years in prison, but served only six months. In

891
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:22.440
June two thousand, Bonet was released from prison after serving

892
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:26.719
seven years for armed robbery after holding three women at gunpoint.

893
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:30.199
He was sentenced to twenty years but granted early release.

894
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.440
Bonet grew up in the same small town as David

895
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.880
New Albany, Indiana, but their paths had never crossed. Initially,

896
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:40.400
Bonet claimed that he didn't even know David.

897
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:44.280
That sweatshirt is in the middle of a cram scene

898
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:50.880
of a triple homicide. Somehow that sweatshirt got there, Your sweatshirt,

899
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:53.079
you explained to me.

900
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:54.599
How I got there.

901
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:58.239
I have no idea. It shows up at a cram

902
00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:02.079
scene not longer. If it went through the Salvation Army

903
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:05.079
drop box, that would have been a clean sweatshirt. Your

904
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:08.119
DNA chances are probably wouldn't have been.

905
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:12.679
On there, but it is. I see where you're coming from.

906
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.760
You know David Cam? No, you ever met David Cam?

907
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:17.039
No?

908
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:21.599
Do you remember the murder of David.

909
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.400
Cam's family on television?

910
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:23.599
Yes?

911
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:28.280
Do you know where David Cam lives? Calling on television?

912
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:33.000
Make no mistake about it. If anything else, I'll link

913
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:36.039
to you to it. You're done, stick a four PU

914
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:37.360
and see.

915
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:38.480
That would normally worry me.

916
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:41.719
I wasn't there, No, he wasn't he wasn't there.

917
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:42.440
Oh okay.

918
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:45.880
Then well later Bonney changed his story after the palm

919
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.519
print was found to be his.

920
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:52.159
Got some explaining to do here, Charles, your palm print

921
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:57.079
is on that bronco. You're there now, this is the time,

922
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.480
this is the place, this is your last stage. But

923
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:03.079
you're going to have to tell us what the hell happened?

924
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:03.880
This is it?

925
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:13.639
This can't be, Charles. The reason I was then.

926
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:17.639
The last damon is muffled, he said. The reason I

927
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:19.679
was there that night was to bring him a gun.

928
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.239
Bone said he met David in July two thousand at

929
00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:25.880
a pickup basketball game at a park in New Albany.

930
00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:29.199
David asked Bonet if he could get him a clean gun.

931
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.719
So David was not a police officer anymore at this point,

932
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:36.880
so why would why would he want a convicted criminal

933
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:37.719
to bring him a gun?

934
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:41.159
That's a very good question. Boney said. David paid him

935
00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:43.800
two hundred and fifty dollars for the gun. He delivered

936
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:46.440
the gun to David the same day he requested it,

937
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:50.199
but days before the murders, David requested a second gun,

938
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:53.719
which Bonet said he delivered wrapped in the backbone sweatshirt.

939
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.360
On September twenty eighth, just minutes before Kim and the

940
00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:01.199
kids came home, David met him outside the garage. Bone

941
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:03.599
claimed he was outside of the garage when David and

942
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:07.639
Kim began fighting. He heard Kim yell no and a

943
00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:11.920
child say Daddy no, and then heard three gunshots. Then

944
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:14.519
David walked out of the garage with a gun poised

945
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:16.920
at Bonet, but as he was about to shoot him,

946
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.639
the gun jammed. Boney chased David back into the garage.

947
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:23.320
David ran into the house. That's when Bonet learned leaned

948
00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:25.400
into the bronco to check on Kim, Brad and Jill,

949
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:28.719
leaving his palm print. He tripped over kim shoes and

950
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:31.559
put them on top of the bronco, and then ran

951
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:35.440
from the scene, leaving the sweatshirt behind. So you'll notice

952
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.519
he has an explanation for every single piece of evidence

953
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:39.280
in the crime scene.

954
00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:41.199
I hear that, I just yeah, I put the shoes

955
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:44.159
on top of the bronco after I tripped on them

956
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.039
in this crime scene. That seems really like a likely

957
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:48.159
thing someone would do.

958
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:50.719
Well, not just that, but why would even if David

959
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:52.719
had asked him for a gun, Why would he need

960
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:53.960
a second gun.

961
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:55.840
Yeah, it just makes no sense.

962
00:50:56.519 --> 00:51:00.400
Bone was given two polygraph tests. One came back incanncline, elusive,

963
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:05.719
and the other possibly deceptive. He's a really an odd guy.

964
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:12.159
Despite his constantly shifting story, Prosecutor Keith Henderson believed Bonet's

965
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:15.920
account because why wouldn't you, you know, the guy who's

966
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:18.639
been in prison. Yeah, he's told you five different versions

967
00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:19.400
of the story.

968
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:21.519
And his DNA is under the victim's fingernails.

969
00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:26.000
Why are prosecutors so quick to believe jail house informants.

970
00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:28.480
Well, yeah, I think they are just looking for anything

971
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:31.880
to support their case. But in this situation, yeah, it

972
00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:34.159
doesn't seem like a good decision.

973
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.599
There is evidence that Bonet, who was interviewed multiple times

974
00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:41.480
over twenty hours, received pressure and was fed information to

975
00:51:41.679 --> 00:51:45.679
encourage him to implicate David as a co conspirator. Police

976
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:48.719
had installed cameras at the cemetery, hoping to catch David

977
00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.639
confessing to his family, but instead they caught Charles Bonet

978
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:53.440
at the cemetery.

979
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:57.360
Oh so he was visiting the graves of Kim and

980
00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:58.320
the children.

981
00:51:58.559 --> 00:51:59.039
Apparently.

982
00:51:59.119 --> 00:51:59.440
Wow.

983
00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:02.199
At this point, do you think that there's any evidence

984
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.079
linking David to the crime M.

985
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:08.159
Not really well.

986
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.639
And remember he has an alibi signed by eleven people

987
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:14.000
saying that he was at the basketball game. Yeah, between

988
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.039
seven and nine thirty.

989
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:17.280
Yeah, But I am trying to think if there's any

990
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:21.800
possibility that I could see David if he wanted to

991
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:25.519
get rid of his wife to work with someone like Bonet.

992
00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:28.599
But you're right, I mean, the evidence it's hard to

993
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:31.800
put David at the scene when the crime occurred, and

994
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.920
the fact that the DNA and everything all point to Bone. Yeah,

995
00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:38.840
I don't see anything that really points to David at

996
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:39.480
this point.

997
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.079
Unless he could have been hired right. Two days later,

998
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:46.119
after being free on bail for two months, Keith Henderson

999
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:49.719
dropped the charges against David cam He and his family

1000
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:53.159
were jubilant. Not only was he cleared, but the real

1001
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:56.960
killer was finally found In the midst of a family celebration.

1002
00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:01.719
Three hours later, Prosecutor Henderson filed new charges against David,

1003
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:05.199
three accounts of murder and one count of conspiracy.

1004
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:07.039
Well, that was a short lived celebration.

1005
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.480
It was a new probable cause effidavit was written by

1006
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:14.519
a new lead investigator, Gary Gilbert. He wrote that Sean Clemens,

1007
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.000
the initial lead investigator told him that David confessed on

1008
00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:22.280
the night of the murders. While investigators collected evidence, David

1009
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:24.880
complained about the treatment he was receiving from his old

1010
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:27.440
trooper friends and said, quote, this is what they do

1011
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.519
when you kill your wife and kids. They considered this

1012
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:31.480
a confession.

1013
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.519
Doesn't sound like a confession, really, right, And if.

1014
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:39.159
They considered a confession, why hadn't Sean Clemens included it

1015
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.800
in the first probable cause effidavit?

1016
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:42.639
Yeah, exactly.

1017
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:47.480
Henderson decided to try Bonet and David together as co conspirators. David,

1018
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.840
now forty one, was arrested again and to night bail.

1019
00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:54.800
Both David and Boney were jailed at the Floyd County Jail.

1020
00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:58.000
When asked about the new charges, Frank Wren said, quote,

1021
00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:01.159
I'm tickled to death about that justice will be served

1022
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:04.000
and it will be easier to sleep at night. In

1023
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:06.440
a matter of days, Sam Lockhart and his family felt

1024
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:10.840
every possible emotion, from elation to rage, to depression and frustration.

1025
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.440
They thought that Bonet's arrest meant that David would be exonerated.

1026
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:17.559
Sam said, quote, I thought they'd finally come to their

1027
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.920
senses when they released him on bond. Our prosecutors are

1028
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:24.719
just doing this to cover themselves. They can't admit they're wrong.

1029
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:27.400
They're doing this because they made errors in the past

1030
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:33.280
and can't admit errors. End quote. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

1031
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:34.119
Yeah, I do too.

1032
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:36.639
In August two thousand and five, David was forced to

1033
00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:39.719
do a ten days stint in solitary after he violently

1034
00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:42.800
yelled at Bonnet through the library window. It was a

1035
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:46.039
chance meeting as the men were kept in different cell blocks.

1036
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:50.079
David shouted, you killed my family and pounded on the window.

1037
00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:53.199
It's kind of crazy that they were at the same jail. Yeah,

1038
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:56.119
that's the way, different cell blocks. It seems like that's

1039
00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:57.559
not the best idea.

1040
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.159
No, we'll be back after a break.

1041
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.360
Because of the intense media and public interest in the case,

1042
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.840
a change of venue to Warwick County, Indiana, about eighty

1043
00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:17.719
miles east of New Albany, was granted for David's second trial.

1044
00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:21.480
The prosecutor wanted to try Bonet and cam together, but

1045
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:25.960
the judge denied the request. Bonet's trial remained in Floyd County.

1046
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:30.239
On Monday, January ninth, two thousand and six, David's second

1047
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:34.039
trial started in Warwick County, while Charles Bonet's trial began

1048
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:36.960
in Floyd County as they started them on the same day.

1049
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:41.440
David was now represented by two fierce female attorneys, Kitty

1050
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.079
Lyle and Stacey Uliana, who were responsible for getting the

1051
00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:48.880
verdict in the first trial overturned. They both firmly believed

1052
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:52.280
in David's innocence and were determined to see him exonerated.

1053
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:56.480
Certain evidence was excluded from the trial, including David's history

1054
00:55:56.519 --> 00:56:01.599
of infidelity and very limited mentions of Charles Boney. Wow. Really,

1055
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:03.480
that seems really crazy.

1056
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:04.480
This is really unfair.

1057
00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:08.119
Yeah. On January twenty fifth, two thousand and six, in

1058
00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:11.320
Franklin County, Boney was found guilty on the three murder

1059
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.039
charges and one count of conspiracy, but that information was

1060
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.440
not shared with the jurors in David's trial.

1061
00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:20.440
I don't know how they proved or tried to prove

1062
00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:23.199
the conspiracy charge. As far as I'm aware, there is

1063
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.639
not a shred of evidence linking these two men together

1064
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:30.719
other than Bonet's account that they met at a basketball game.

1065
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:31.400
Blah blah blah.

1066
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.599
There's no can you really trust his word on that exactly? Yeah,

1067
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:38.320
that's really crazy. Boney was sentenced to two hundred and

1068
00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:42.119
twenty five years in prison. Kim's father, Frank Wren, was

1069
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:45.880
concerned about the lack of forensic evidence against David. Quote,

1070
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:48.719
David cam murdered these three people, and he's the one

1071
00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:50.440
we got to get unquote.

1072
00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:55.039
This drives me. I'm sorry, I'm like emotional about this

1073
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:59.599
case because they're so convinced confirmation bias. Like everyone is, like,

1074
00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:02.639
you know, trying to link David to the crime, but

1075
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.639
no one is willing to think, oh, maybe he's innocent.

1076
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.000
Yeah, I mean, it is possible that David is not

1077
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:10.199
a good guy, that he had affairs, that he was

1078
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:13.880
not good to his wife, and that he also didn't

1079
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:15.639
kill her and his kids.

1080
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:18.360
Thank you, Yes, those exactly.

1081
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.679
In a blow to the defense, the judge allowed evidence

1082
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:26.159
of Jill's possible sexual abuse. The prosecution argued that David

1083
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:29.400
had molested Jill, and when Kim confronted him, he killed

1084
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:33.000
her and the children. The prosecution widened the window of

1085
00:57:33.079 --> 00:57:36.679
Jill's possible sexual abuse to forty eight hours before her death.

1086
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:40.119
During the second trial, the judge allowed the jury to

1087
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.159
hear limited information about Bonnet. They could only introduce evidence

1088
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:46.719
of his DNA and PALM print being found in the

1089
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:50.119
cam's garage. The defense could not mention that he was

1090
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:53.840
found guilty at his trial, his history of violence against women,

1091
00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:57.559
or his foot fetish. An inmate who served time with

1092
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:00.159
David testified that he had confessed to him when he

1093
00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:03.320
was giving him a tattoo. He claimed that David told

1094
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.960
him he had killed his family after sneaking out of

1095
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:09.440
the basketball game, and that he only regretted Brad's death.

1096
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:13.119
After the prosecution rested five weeks into the trial, the

1097
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:16.800
judge dropped the conspiracy charge against David because the prosecution

1098
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:19.760
failed to make their case so in this case, the

1099
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:22.760
judge said there was no evidence of a conspiracy, so

1100
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.840
he dropped that charge. But in Bonnet's case, he was

1101
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:29.440
found guilty of conspiracy with no evidence linking them together.

1102
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:30.519
Okay.

1103
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:34.480
The defense's strongest evidence was that David couldn't have killed

1104
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:38.000
his family because he was at the basketball game. The

1105
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:40.880
second trial lasted seven weeks and cost more than five

1106
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:44.400
hundred thousand dollars. More than seventy five witnesses were heard.

1107
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:48.519
The jury deliberated for forty four hours over four days,

1108
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:53.320
and returned a guilty verdict on Friday, March third, Interestingly,

1109
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:56.960
the jury foreman was an attorney. He convinced his fellow

1110
00:58:57.079 --> 00:59:00.920
jurors to methodically review the evidence before taking their initial vote.

1111
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:03.880
On the fourth day, it was nine to three guilty,

1112
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:07.159
but they soon all came to a consensus guilty on

1113
00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:11.679
three counts of murder. The cam Lockhart families were devastated

1114
00:59:11.719 --> 00:59:13.960
and wept as the verdict was read, while the Wren

1115
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.719
family felt relief. They believe without a doubt that David

1116
00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:21.559
is guilty. Davidkam was once again sentenced to life in

1117
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:25.599
prison without the possibility of parole. In two thousand and nine,

1118
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:30.320
the Indiana Supreme Court once again overturned David's conviction, stating,

1119
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:34.039
quote missing from this record is any competent evidence of

1120
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:38.159
the premise that the defendant molested the child quote. The

1121
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:40.880
evidence of Jill being sexually abused was ruled to be

1122
00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:45.199
speculative and prejudicial. The decision stated that if any future

1123
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:48.400
prosecution of David Kam were to mention a possible sexual

1124
00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:51.800
assault of Jill, the prosecutor would be required to have

1125
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:55.920
credible proof against David. Wow, this is quite a saga,

1126
00:59:56.079 --> 00:59:59.440
isn't it. It's it is crazy that they didn't allow

1127
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:03.480
evidence about his affairs, and yet they allowed this evidence

1128
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:05.920
which really there wasn't a whole lot to back up

1129
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:07.360
that he had abused her.

1130
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:10.480
Her autopsy stated that there was blunt forest trauma in

1131
01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:12.800
her vaginal region. But we don't know if that could

1132
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:15.519
have been Bonet or you know, it possibly could have

1133
01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:18.760
been David. But as soon as you talk about child's

1134
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:22.119
sexual abuse, it's prejudicial. And because there was no proof

1135
01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:24.760
who could have done it, you know, I understand that

1136
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:27.119
they couldn't use it at trial, right, Yeah.

1137
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:29.599
For sure. A change of venue was granted for the

1138
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:33.079
third trial to Boone County in Lebanon, Indiana, about two

1139
01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:36.280
and a half hours from New Albany. The trial was

1140
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:41.599
delayed until October twenty thirteen. Charles Bonet testified. He claimed

1141
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:44.039
that on the night of the murders, he hand delivered

1142
01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:46.639
a gun to David and that he was outside of

1143
01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:49.960
the garage when he heard the three shots. The inmate

1144
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.639
who had testified at the second trial about David's alleged confession,

1145
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:57.159
testified at the third trial, doubling down on the account

1146
01:00:57.239 --> 01:01:00.159
that he gave at the second trial. This time, the

1147
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:03.039
defense was ready for him. They asked him if he'd

1148
01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:05.599
been moved to a more favorable prison and given a

1149
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:09.400
reduced sentence for his testifying against David. Two weeks after

1150
01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:12.880
the second trial, the inmate, who had been released on probation,

1151
01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:16.559
denied having received any special favors by the state, but

1152
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:20.280
it was obvious that he had. That does not seem

1153
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:24.079
like that should be okay to give somebody special favors

1154
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:29.880
for testifying, because it's it's basically like paying someone to

1155
01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:32.400
get on a stand and say something, which I guess

1156
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:34.960
it happens with expert witnesses, but it shouldn't happen with

1157
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:40.559
anyone else, Oh should not. David noted that several jurors

1158
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:43.400
made eye contact with him as they filed into the courtroom.

1159
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:45.920
This was his third trial, and he knew that this

1160
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:50.000
might be a positive sign. On October twenty fourth, twenty thirteen,

1161
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:57.119
David was acquitted of all three murders and gained his freedom. Wow. David,

1162
01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:00.920
his family, and attorneys all wept not be tried again

1163
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.519
for the murders of Kim, Brad and Jill. Kim's sister

1164
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:07.679
Debbie said, quote, what bothers me is when he said

1165
01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:10.280
they had a happy marriage toward the end, they did

1166
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:13.960
not He was very, very controlling. He kept her under wraps.

1167
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:18.039
Kim wasn't herself before she died. She wasn't happy. She

1168
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:21.400
kept telling me soon will be spending more time together.

1169
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:27.519
Unquote, David told Eugene Lyscio of the Three D Forensics podcast. Quote,

1170
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.320
They'll say or do anything not to have to admit

1171
01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:33.480
they are wrong and to protect themselves and the image

1172
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:37.000
that is out there, especially about the state police. They

1173
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:40.079
were fully vested and all in and nothing was going

1174
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:44.079
to persuade them to deviate from that path. David credits

1175
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.119
his attorneys, who he refers to his family, with never

1176
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:49.800
giving up on him. He believes the change in venue

1177
01:02:50.119 --> 01:02:53.679
in the third trial made a difference, and also, you know,

1178
01:02:53.719 --> 01:03:00.320
excluding the evidence against his infidelity and the alleged sexual ruse, Yeah, that.

1179
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:03.079
Took a lot of like just the emotional part of

1180
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:05.360
it out of the jury. Like if they didn't hear

1181
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:09.880
evidence about his daughter being sexually abused and evidence about

1182
01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:13.280
his affairs, then you know, it was probably more fair.

1183
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:17.440
After David was acquitted, he filed a lawsuit against Floyd

1184
01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:21.079
County for thirty million dollars. In twenty sixteen, the county

1185
01:03:21.079 --> 01:03:24.280
settled the lawsuit for four hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

1186
01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:28.199
He filed other lawsuits, which were filed and settled privately.

1187
01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:32.960
David filed a federal civil rights lawsuit as well, seeking

1188
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:35.880
compensation from the state, as well as from some of

1189
01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:40.760
the expert witnesses and investigators, including Stites, Engler, and the

1190
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:44.360
lead investigator and writer of the flawed probable cause effidavit,

1191
01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:48.239
Sean Clemens. The lawsuit claimed the evidence was falsified and

1192
01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:51.880
the experts were unqualified as expert witnesses. Part of the

1193
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:56.280
lawsuit demanded that Robert Stites issue a public apology to David.

1194
01:03:56.760 --> 01:04:00.000
The case against the expert witnesses was dismissed in Janey

1195
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:04.679
twenty eighteen, but then reinstated in twenty nineteen by the

1196
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:08.679
Seventh Circuit US Court of Appeals. In April twenty twenty two,

1197
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.519
the State of Indiana settled it's part of the lawsuit

1198
01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:16.760
for four point six million dollars. Robert Stites released a

1199
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.559
statement that said he quote acknowledges and regrets that his

1200
01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:24.039
actions in October two thousand, as well as the actions

1201
01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:27.760
of others, contributed to the imprisonment of David cam who

1202
01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:29.920
was later exonerated.

1203
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:32.239
Now sites was the blood spatter analyst. Is that right?

1204
01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:35.840
He was the guy who had no experience.

1205
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:36.079
Yeah.

1206
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:37.880
Yeah, he was the one with no experience.

1207
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:42.000
That still boggles my mind that he was allowed to testify.

1208
01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:45.079
David's attorney at the time, Gary Adams said, quote, there

1209
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.760
is not enough money in the world to compensate David

1210
01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:51.079
Camp for what he has been through. End quote. As

1211
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:53.719
soon as David received his settlement money, he repaid all

1212
01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.320
of his relatives who had never wavered in their belief

1213
01:04:56.320 --> 01:05:01.159
of his innocence. They'd selflessly paid for his defense Sam Lockhart,

1214
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.199
who sacrificed his business and livelihood with his loyal and

1215
01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:09.119
steadfast support. You can tell why my unbiased writing here

1216
01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:11.199
that I am a big fan of Sam Lockhart, and

1217
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:15.039
I think he is an exceptional individual. And it's just

1218
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:19.119
amazing to me that these people can stand up for

1219
01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:22.840
their family and be there and support them no matter what. Yeah,

1220
01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:27.119
it's pretty amazing. David filed a wrongful death suit against

1221
01:05:27.159 --> 01:05:30.199
Charles Boney, and August twenty twenty three of Floyd County

1222
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.960
judge ruled that Boney must pay three million dollars to David.

1223
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:37.519
I'm not sure with what, but the Rens dropped their

1224
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:40.639
wrongful death suit against David, but said nothing had changed.

1225
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:43.159
They still firmly believed their former son in law was

1226
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:46.480
guilty and they would continue to fight him from profiting

1227
01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:49.840
from the deaths of cam Brad and Jill and him

1228
01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:53.480
getting the insurance money. Their lawyer said, quote, acquittal is

1229
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:57.119
not the same as innocence. David said that he cared

1230
01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.320
about the Rens and he would like to re establish

1231
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.440
a relationship with them, but he also accused them of

1232
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:06.000
being financially motivated. He said some kind of not so

1233
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:09.239
nice things about them, which as I can't really blame him.

1234
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:13.079
Prosecutor Keith Henderson had a public fall from grace that

1235
01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:16.599
began during David's trial. He signed a book deal to

1236
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:19.400
write about the case while it was still ongoing. It

1237
01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:22.519
was a major conflict of interest and created concerns that

1238
01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:25.920
his decision making in the case might be influenced by

1239
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:30.639
financial motives rather than a commitment to justice. Henderson was

1240
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:35.079
also criticized for using public funds improperly and abusing government

1241
01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:38.559
resources when he built the county for his personal legal

1242
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:43.039
fees when fighting a personal disciplinary action. These issues led

1243
01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:47.320
to Henderson's permanent dispartment in Indiana and February twenty twenty two,

1244
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:52.039
he died shortly after losing his law license. While Stan

1245
01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:55.760
Faith faced no legal repercussions for his handling of David

1246
01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:59.760
Cam's first trial, he faced public scrutiny for questionable handling

1247
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:04.320
of evidence, failing to investigate other suspects, and conflicts of interest.

1248
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:08.079
His reputation never fully recovered from his buggling of the case.

1249
01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:12.480
He died in January twenty twenty three. Jill Cam had

1250
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:15.559
boundless energy. She loved to dance, play dress up and

1251
01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:18.559
loved to play sports. Rad loved to swim and play

1252
01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:20.880
with his cousins. He was a quiet child, but stood

1253
01:07:20.920 --> 01:07:24.119
up for injustice and was a great big brother. Kim

1254
01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:27.159
was smart, funny, and a hard worker, completely dedicated to

1255
01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:30.320
her family. She was quiet and observant. She could sit

1256
01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:33.960
through a two hour meeting and summarize it in two sentences.

1257
01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:37.639
She fought valiantly against her attacker to save her children.

1258
01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.480
Rest in peace, Kim, Brad and Jill. When David was

1259
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:45.039
initially exonerated in twenty thirteen, he did speaking engagements and

1260
01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:48.280
advocacy work her. He is speaking at a police event.

1261
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:50.800
I guess I would just say to some this thing

1262
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:54.599
up is now. I don't know what you'll do exactly,

1263
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:56.599
or who you are or whatever. I know you're in

1264
01:07:56.599 --> 01:07:59.360
the legal field, and so on. I have told students

1265
01:07:59.360 --> 01:07:59.760
this before.

1266
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.679
Tell the story. I don't care who you are or

1267
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:04.599
what you do. I don't you know.

1268
01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:07.119
With young people at the colleges, if they want to

1269
01:08:07.119 --> 01:08:08.960
go into law enforcement, want to be a police officer.

1270
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:09.320
I don't care.

1271
01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:18.880
That's fine, but whatever you do, be fair. Just be fair.

1272
01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:28.079
Treat people the way that you would want to be

1273
01:08:28.119 --> 01:08:29.119
treated if you were in that.

1274
01:08:29.159 --> 01:08:34.039
Situation, because you know what, sometimes you're going to have

1275
01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:35.479
an innocent person sitting there.

1276
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:42.359
It's going to happen. Recognize that. Be diligent in your difference.

1277
01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:52.000
We're all human beings and we.

1278
01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:56.800
All make mistakes, including police officers, including prosecutors and judges.

1279
01:08:57.560 --> 01:09:02.680
And when you're wrong, if that happens, have the courage

1280
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:05.279
to recognize it and do the right thing.

1281
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:08.439
Make it tight.

1282
01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:16.199
As human beings, we owe at to each other. Thank you.

1283
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:21.840
David said he'd love to become a forensics expert and

1284
01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:26.560
work with other wrongly convicted inmates incarcerated due to blood

1285
01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:31.159
spatter analysis. David believes blood spatter analysis is like art,

1286
01:09:31.239 --> 01:09:35.279
just a subjective opinion. Everyone sees something different. He said

1287
01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:38.399
he dreams of Kim Braden Jill every night. He was

1288
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:41.560
very hurt by his fellow law enforcement officers who turned

1289
01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:44.840
on him so quickly and didn't properly process the crime

1290
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:48.000
scene and failed to look into other suspects.

1291
01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:56.439
I've always believed, ultimately that the truth would prevail find strength,

1292
01:09:56.479 --> 01:10:00.880
and that I've always believed on the issues that we've

1293
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:02.239
were raised that have caused these.

1294
01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:03.319
Reversals, that we were right.

1295
01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:08.399
So, you know, you just it's really a survival moved.

1296
01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:11.279
Were you close with the other troopers?

1297
01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:14.239
Yeah?

1298
01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:18.319
I used to work betrayal earlier. You know some of

1299
01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:24.119
these people were they were family, brother and sister to love,

1300
01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:29.800
would have done anything, and the one moment in my

1301
01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:36.279
life where I hate somebody to do something for me, yeah,

1302
01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:37.039
they turned them back.

1303
01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:41.159
So he went from being the good guy to a

1304
01:10:41.199 --> 01:10:46.199
bad guy virtually overnight. Really would infraction of the second.

1305
01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:47.640
You think about him every day?

1306
01:10:48.520 --> 01:10:52.800
Yeah, I dream about him every night.

1307
01:10:55.239 --> 01:10:57.680
Since his release from prison, David has been trying to

1308
01:10:57.800 --> 01:11:02.000
rebuild his life. He remarried and twenty eighteen and now

1309
01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:05.079
lives in the Indianapolis area. I think I haven't been

1310
01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:08.199
able to find much about him in the last few years.

1311
01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:11.600
It is estimated that the state of Indiana spent five

1312
01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:15.199
million dollars on prosecuting David cam who is likely an

1313
01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:19.319
innocent man. County employees had to forego raises because of

1314
01:11:19.359 --> 01:11:23.760
the expensive trial. Robert Stites was never charged with perjury.

1315
01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:28.000
He claimed that prosecutors stand faith encouraged him to bolster

1316
01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.680
his credentials. Wow, that is it's bananas because he definitely lied.

1317
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:33.399
On Yeah, that really bothers me.

1318
01:11:34.039 --> 01:11:37.119
Charles Bonet remains in prison serving his life sentence. He

1319
01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:40.760
calls himself a changed man who has found God. While

1320
01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:45.199
in prison, he has founded two groups, Badged Lives Matter

1321
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:50.039
and Few or Fella's Empowering Women.

1322
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:57.279
Okay, Badged Lives Matter and Fella's Empowering Women. Yep, okay.

1323
01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:00.039
Here's a clip of Charles Bonet talking.

1324
01:12:00.199 --> 01:12:02.800
I regret being involved in this case. I really wish

1325
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:06.640
I could go back in time, but I don't regret

1326
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:09.439
the time that I have. I wouldn't change it because

1327
01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:13.000
it's made me better, It's helped me grow. If I

1328
01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:15.119
hadn't to come back to prison, I wouldn't know Christ

1329
01:12:15.239 --> 01:12:18.399
like I know him. We're clearly both there and one

1330
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:22.239
of us is the killer. Davidkam is the killer. I

1331
01:12:22.279 --> 01:12:24.640
didn't tell the truth about everything because I wanted to

1332
01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:27.479
stay completely out of the mix. I didn't want to

1333
01:12:27.479 --> 01:12:30.600
go back to prison. As I told them the truths

1334
01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:32.800
about the story, they didn't believe it. So then I

1335
01:12:32.840 --> 01:12:34.760
started just telling them things that I thought that they

1336
01:12:34.760 --> 01:12:37.560
could believe. At the end of the day, I've told

1337
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:42.439
I think all together like five different versions. On September

1338
01:12:42.479 --> 01:12:45.439
twenty eighth, I took a second untraceable weapon to the

1339
01:12:45.439 --> 01:12:50.279
Cam residence. David Cam showed up. We were talking outside

1340
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:53.760
of his house. His wife, Kim Cam, and the two children,

1341
01:12:53.880 --> 01:12:57.039
Brad and Jill, pulled up in a I believe it

1342
01:12:57.079 --> 01:13:01.880
was a black Bronco. As the garage door lifted up,

1343
01:13:02.199 --> 01:13:04.680
she drove in. I've seen her break lights come on,

1344
01:13:05.680 --> 01:13:09.119
and then he went into the garage. And then I

1345
01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:13.279
heard arguing, and I heard a no, and then I

1346
01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:17.520
heard a daddy no, and then I heard pop pop pop.

1347
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:22.800
My sweatshirt was not tucked under his son. He staged

1348
01:13:22.840 --> 01:13:28.880
that Kim Cam, his wife was not undressed at all.

1349
01:13:29.199 --> 01:13:32.880
I learned from television and in my discovery that someone

1350
01:13:32.960 --> 01:13:34.800
had removed her pants.

1351
01:13:35.359 --> 01:13:37.640
So he claims to be a changed man, but basically

1352
01:13:37.680 --> 01:13:41.319
he's sticking with his story, says exactly what he said

1353
01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:43.119
in the trial is what happened.

1354
01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:47.880
Exactly that he did not kill the family. Yeah, and lastly,

1355
01:13:48.119 --> 01:13:51.520
here's David cam talking about what he would want from Bonnet.

1356
01:13:52.199 --> 01:13:55.319
The angers there and the hate is there that I

1357
01:13:55.359 --> 01:13:58.960
can't let go, and right now I don't think that

1358
01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:03.560
I want to. But it's not something that conserves me

1359
01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:06.439
and it definitely doesn't control that he's taken all that

1360
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:09.000
he's going to take from me. The question people always

1361
01:14:09.079 --> 01:14:11.760
ask me is how to this African American man end

1362
01:14:11.840 --> 01:14:14.399
up at this house in World Georgetown.

1363
01:14:13.960 --> 01:14:14.640
Who I don't know?

1364
01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:17.800
Would you want anything from him?

1365
01:14:17.840 --> 01:14:19.199
Would you want the truth?

1366
01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:21.199
Finally? Would you want an admission?

1367
01:14:21.359 --> 01:14:23.279
And you know, I thought perhaps I should write him

1368
01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:28.479
a letter and just say, look, Charles, between you and

1369
01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:31.079
I me and command please tell me.

1370
01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:41.399
You know I want to know why.

1371
01:14:37.399 --> 01:14:39.800
Above all, so I learn a Why do you think

1372
01:14:39.800 --> 01:14:41.319
you ever will write him a letter?

1373
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:42.960
Yeah?

1374
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:48.760
No, because regardless of what he wrote me back, it'll.

1375
01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:48.720
Just be live.

1376
01:14:49.880 --> 01:14:52.920
I think Charles Bonnet is a psychopath. Yeah, I don't

1377
01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:55.319
think he will ever tell the truth. And if David

1378
01:14:55.399 --> 01:14:59.159
Cam hired him to kill his family, he's in prison

1379
01:14:59.239 --> 01:15:02.960
for were two hundred years, why wouldn't he just say that. Yeah,

1380
01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:05.439
So I have to believe that David Cam is innocent

1381
01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:06.960
and Charles Boney is guilty.

1382
01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:09.159
I think I believe that too, But I am bothered

1383
01:15:09.199 --> 01:15:12.640
by a few things, Like I don't like I kind

1384
01:15:12.640 --> 01:15:14.399
of David Camp said it there at the end. I

1385
01:15:14.439 --> 01:15:17.399
wish I knew why, Like what was how did he

1386
01:15:17.560 --> 01:15:18.159
end up there?

1387
01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:18.760
Yeah?

1388
01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:21.039
No, I agree to like what is the motive? And

1389
01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:24.920
it's not like it was they live in a rural community,

1390
01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:29.000
they lived on Lockhart Road. It was yeah, very strange

1391
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:29.920
that he ended up there.

1392
01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:32.359
Yeah, I wish I just wish I had an explanation

1393
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:34.840
for that. But I certainly can't look at any of

1394
01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:38.880
the evidence and say that David Cam likely was involved.

1395
01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:41.439
It just doesn't make sense. And like you said, if

1396
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:44.479
David Cam hired him to do it, then why wouldn't

1397
01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:46.600
he have said that? I would have actually been that

1398
01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:49.720
would have been more believable to me if Boney had

1399
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:51.760
come out and said, yeah, David Cam hired me to

1400
01:15:51.800 --> 01:15:54.079
do it and I did it right, But he didn't say.

1401
01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:56.960
That say that, So yeah, I just I'm surprised he

1402
01:15:57.039 --> 01:15:57.680
didn't say that.

1403
01:15:57.920 --> 01:16:00.800
I am to it well. Saying that he would have

1404
01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:04.079
been admitting that he killed them, even if he even

1405
01:16:04.119 --> 01:16:06.760
if he claimed it was someone hiring him to do it.

1406
01:16:06.840 --> 01:16:08.760
So he you know, I can see why he didn't

1407
01:16:08.760 --> 01:16:11.359
say that because he wanted to get acquitted.

1408
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:14.279
So even if you're a hitman, you're still going to

1409
01:16:14.359 --> 01:16:18.239
go to prison for murdering three people. Yeah, the timing

1410
01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:22.359
is weird too, because he must have been waiting at

1411
01:16:22.399 --> 01:16:25.600
seven point thirty when they got home, and you know,

1412
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:28.079
the kids were still strapped into their their car seats,

1413
01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:31.119
and yeah, timing is strange.

1414
01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:33.039
Yeah what was he doing there? Why was he there?

1415
01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:36.479
You know, I forgot. I do have one possible connection. Okay,

1416
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:41.640
So Debbie Kim's sister, I believe her in laws owned

1417
01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:46.319
like a store, like a butcher shop maybe, and it

1418
01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:50.319
was thought that maybe Kim had gone in there, and.

1419
01:16:50.239 --> 01:16:52.680
Maybe maybe he followed them.

1420
01:16:52.840 --> 01:16:55.279
Charles Boney had seen her in there. I mean, Kim

1421
01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:56.039
was a pretty.

1422
01:16:55.800 --> 01:17:00.359
Lady and so maybe he followed them back and possible.

1423
01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:04.079
Or he liked her shoes or whatever it was, right.

1424
01:17:04.479 --> 01:17:06.600
Yeah, that would make at least a little bit of sense.

1425
01:17:07.319 --> 01:17:09.600
Do you think the evidence of adultery should have been allowed?

1426
01:17:10.560 --> 01:17:12.760
I kind of do. I mean, if if they were

1427
01:17:12.920 --> 01:17:15.920
prosecuting him and their theory was he wanted to get

1428
01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:19.079
rid of his wife, then that would that would point

1429
01:17:19.079 --> 01:17:21.079
to a motive for why he wanted to get rid

1430
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:23.359
of her. So it does make sense to me. But

1431
01:17:23.399 --> 01:17:25.159
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't you know, I

1432
01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:28.239
don't understand quite why some things are allowed and some

1433
01:17:28.279 --> 01:17:28.800
things aren't.

1434
01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:32.159
Do you think blood spatter analysis is junk science?

1435
01:17:32.840 --> 01:17:36.119
We've talked about it before. I I'm not an expert.

1436
01:17:36.119 --> 01:17:39.000
I'm not a scientist, but from everything I've read, it

1437
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:41.000
does seem like it's pretty questionable.

1438
01:17:42.359 --> 01:17:42.720
I don't know.

1439
01:17:42.800 --> 01:17:45.760
I've watched the show Dexter enough to know that, you know,

1440
01:17:46.000 --> 01:17:47.119
he was really good at it.

1441
01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:51.000
But I think there's some points it can be useful.

1442
01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:54.760
But if you're jumping to too many conclusions.

1443
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:56.920
Based on that, yeah, yeah, because I mean you can

1444
01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:00.640
definitely look at blood as evidence and say, well, this

1445
01:18:01.479 --> 01:18:05.159
must have been a result of this happening or that happening,

1446
01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:08.319
But to base too much on it is probably not

1447
01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:09.199
a good idea.

1448
01:18:09.760 --> 01:18:13.279
Blood Spatter evidence is often labeled as junk science, primarily

1449
01:18:13.359 --> 01:18:17.840
due to its vulnerability to human interpretation. Inconsistent training, and

1450
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:22.479
the absence of standardized procedures can lead to flawed conclusions.

1451
01:18:22.920 --> 01:18:25.359
In two thousand and nine, a report from the National

1452
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:29.560
Academy of Sciences raised concerns about the scientific rigor of

1453
01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:35.119
various forensic practices, including blood spatter analysis, highlighting that there

1454
01:18:35.279 --> 01:18:39.920
is frequently a lack of sufficient scientific validation. While blood

1455
01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:44.279
spatter analysis can be a valuable too in crime scene investigations,

1456
01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:49.479
it becomes problematic when experts extend their conclusions beyond the evidence,

1457
01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:54.960
relying on subjective opinions and biased research rather than objective data.

1458
01:18:55.079 --> 01:18:59.239
This issue is particularly concerning when such opinions are presented

1459
01:18:59.399 --> 01:19:02.159
as facts in court. Said one more thing that I

1460
01:19:02.159 --> 01:19:04.439
wanted to say. There is no justice for victims if

1461
01:19:04.479 --> 01:19:07.880
an innocent person is put in jail. While it's the

1462
01:19:07.920 --> 01:19:11.439
prosecutor's responsibility to solve a crime and secure a conviction,

1463
01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:16.359
it's equally important to identify the actual perpetrator. Simply closing

1464
01:19:16.359 --> 01:19:19.439
the case without ensuring the right person is convicted leads

1465
01:19:19.479 --> 01:19:22.880
to two injustices. No matter what David cam does for

1466
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:25.039
the rest of his life. Some people will see him

1467
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:28.079
as a man who sexually abused his daughter and killed

1468
01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:29.239
his wife and two children.

1469
01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.199
Very Well said, I couldn't agree with you more. It

1470
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:36.039
really drives me crazy when people are just want to

1471
01:19:36.039 --> 01:19:38.600
get a conviction, even if it's not the right person.

1472
01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:43.439
It's like, that doesn't help, It's not justice. Yeah, David

1473
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:47.000
was not treated as innocent until proven guilty.

1474
01:19:47.159 --> 01:19:47.359
Right.

1475
01:19:47.439 --> 01:19:49.479
He was treated as a guilty man from the get go.

1476
01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:52.800
Don't like David. I don't think he's the best person,

1477
01:19:52.880 --> 01:19:54.960
but I do think he was innocent.

1478
01:19:55.199 --> 01:19:57.720
Yeah, I do too. That was some of the things

1479
01:19:57.720 --> 01:19:59.800
that conflicted me in this case, because I really didn't

1480
01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:01.800
like him, and there were so many things that bothered

1481
01:20:01.840 --> 01:20:04.920
me about his behavior that I wanted him to be guilty.

1482
01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:07.479
But the more we went on in this case, I'm like, yeah,

1483
01:20:07.520 --> 01:20:10.359
he's just there's just nothing to point to him, right.

1484
01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:13.840
I wanted to mention my sources. Well, I have a

1485
01:20:13.880 --> 01:20:16.600
lot of sources. But I did read a book called

1486
01:20:16.920 --> 01:20:20.479
One Deadly Night, A State Trooper, triple homicide and a

1487
01:20:20.520 --> 01:20:23.640
Search for Justice by John Klatt from two thousand and seven.

1488
01:20:24.319 --> 01:20:27.039
That was a good book. There's another book written by

1489
01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:31.079
a man named Gary Dunn from twenty twenty two. His

1490
01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:33.960
book is called Their Bloody Lies and Persecution of David

1491
01:20:34.039 --> 01:20:37.520
cam Part One. I only read this sample. I wish

1492
01:20:37.560 --> 01:20:40.159
I would have been able to read the whole book,

1493
01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.399
but I'd already read the other book. And when I

1494
01:20:43.439 --> 01:20:45.920
saw when I was initially doing my research it said

1495
01:20:45.960 --> 01:20:47.920
part one. It's like, well, I don't want to read

1496
01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:49.640
a book that's just a part one and part two

1497
01:20:49.680 --> 01:20:52.920
hasn't been released yet. But the book by John Glatt

1498
01:20:52.960 --> 01:20:56.239
actually stopped after the first trial. Oh, okay, I have

1499
01:20:56.279 --> 01:20:58.880
an interesting story from Gary Dunn. I did read this

1500
01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:02.760
sample of his book. Gary Dunn is a twenty seven

1501
01:21:02.840 --> 01:21:06.479
year career FBI man who worked on David's case as

1502
01:21:06.479 --> 01:21:10.000
an investigator. He says that he worked on David's case

1503
01:21:10.039 --> 01:21:13.600
for over three thousand hours. He was talking to his

1504
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:16.199
wife one day about the evidence in the case, and

1505
01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:21.640
she saw a picture of Kim's foot and she said, well,

1506
01:21:21.680 --> 01:21:25.720
that looks like someone stomped on her foot, and he said, oh,

1507
01:21:25.760 --> 01:21:30.159
you're right, it does. And she noticed that Kim's, like

1508
01:21:30.279 --> 01:21:34.319
tonyail polus was chipped, and she said, well, that fella

1509
01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:38.079
had a foot fetish, didn't he? And Gary said yeah,

1510
01:21:38.680 --> 01:21:41.439
And then she said, well, I bet he was angry

1511
01:21:41.479 --> 01:21:45.199
when he took her shoe off and saw that her

1512
01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:47.239
you know, she wasn't taking care of her feet and

1513
01:21:47.319 --> 01:21:47.880
her toes.

1514
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.520
Wow. Interesting, Now I was like, oh, that's so smart.

1515
01:21:50.560 --> 01:21:52.479
That's not something I would have picked on right on

1516
01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:53.079
me either.

1517
01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:56.359
If you remember back to the first episode, David did

1518
01:21:56.399 --> 01:22:00.359
have another daughter named Whitney, and Whitney sat behind the

1519
01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:02.920
prosecution at the trial and she said he was guilty.

1520
01:22:03.439 --> 01:22:06.520
And I don't have any more information about that. So

1521
01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:09.239
I hope that they repair their relationship.

1522
01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:11.319
Yeah, yeah, that would be really sad if not.

1523
01:22:18.119 --> 01:22:19.840
I know this is going long, but we always like

1524
01:22:19.840 --> 01:22:22.159
to lead you with us something that's not true crime.

1525
01:22:22.720 --> 01:22:24.720
A lot of listeners always talk about like, oh, you

1526
01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:27.039
guys have such a nice relationship, and we really do.

1527
01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:29.880
We've been married for a long time. I don't think

1528
01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:32.760
it's always been like super easy. But we're also living

1529
01:22:32.760 --> 01:22:35.800
in this time where our kids are pretty much they're

1530
01:22:35.800 --> 01:22:39.000
pretty much grown, We're financially stable. We just don't have

1531
01:22:39.039 --> 01:22:41.319
as much to argue about as we used to write.

1532
01:22:41.960 --> 01:22:44.359
Fair We are not experts and this is just for

1533
01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:47.439
entertainment purposes. But I'm going to read you a couple

1534
01:22:47.479 --> 01:22:49.880
of advice column things, and I just want to hear

1535
01:22:49.880 --> 01:22:50.640
what you have to say.

1536
01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:51.560
Okay, okay.

1537
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:55.079
The first one is from the Washington Post, Dear Carolyn,

1538
01:22:55.439 --> 01:22:58.199
Every morning, my husband feeds our baby, and every morning

1539
01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:00.680
he leaves the high chair dirty. It's it's not just this.

1540
01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:02.920
There are several other instances where I have to clean

1541
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:05.680
up after him. For example, when he changes our kids,

1542
01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:08.399
he'll throw their old clothes aside for me to fold later.

1543
01:23:08.560 --> 01:23:10.680
When he gives them a bath, he'll leave their towels

1544
01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:12.800
out for me to put away. When he feeds them,

1545
01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:14.479
he'll leave their plates on the counter for me to

1546
01:23:14.479 --> 01:23:17.439
clean up and put away. I've repeatedly asked him to

1547
01:23:17.439 --> 01:23:19.520
clean these things up and express that I find it

1548
01:23:19.520 --> 01:23:23.239
disrespectful that he leaves them for me. He says that

1549
01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:25.880
he just forgets, but it's every day. He also says

1550
01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:28.399
he doesn't clean up because he wants to maximize his

1551
01:23:28.479 --> 01:23:30.960
time with our kids. I'm a stay at home mom.

1552
01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:33.319
We have a toddler and a baby, and he works.

1553
01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:35.359
I don't know what to do to get him to

1554
01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:38.600
clean up after himself. We've talked about it so many times,

1555
01:23:38.640 --> 01:23:40.800
but it doesn't get done, and it seems like I'm

1556
01:23:40.840 --> 01:23:44.199
the nagging wife. What should I do? What is your advice?

1557
01:23:44.279 --> 01:23:46.640
You got me to provide advice? I am like the

1558
01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:50.039
worst person that providing advice like this. I don't I

1559
01:23:50.079 --> 01:23:51.279
don't hear what the problem is.

1560
01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:55.800
Just kidding, oh gosh, your sexist jokes.

1561
01:23:57.399 --> 01:24:01.039
I mean, he needs to do better about cleaning up now.

1562
01:24:01.079 --> 01:24:03.720
I think there is a middle ground here that you know,

1563
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:07.319
there's some level of compromise. I think sometimes in our

1564
01:24:07.560 --> 01:24:10.640
relationship you are very neat and tidy, and I'm not

1565
01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:14.439
a slob or anything, but I'm definitely not as particular

1566
01:24:14.600 --> 01:24:17.720
as you about certain things. And I've tried to adapt,

1567
01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:20.319
like I've you know, tried to basically say, if there's

1568
01:24:20.319 --> 01:24:22.439
something that is important to you, then I will try

1569
01:24:22.479 --> 01:24:24.920
to do what I can. But at the same time,

1570
01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:27.159
sometimes I'll push back on like that doesn't make any

1571
01:24:27.159 --> 01:24:28.439
sense or that's silly.

1572
01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:30.199
So when's the last time you pushed back?

1573
01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:33.119
Well, I think we've gotten to a point where we,

1574
01:24:33.520 --> 01:24:36.720
you know, we kind of understand where the where that

1575
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:37.560
line is drawn.

1576
01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:39.239
And you know, so I always a stay at home

1577
01:24:39.279 --> 01:24:43.319
mom for for for a long time, and those baby

1578
01:24:43.359 --> 01:24:47.119
toddler years are exhausting. And I think the key here

1579
01:24:47.199 --> 01:24:49.880
is communication, Yes, always communication.

1580
01:24:50.079 --> 01:24:52.039
Yeah, well I think that has all that has always

1581
01:24:52.039 --> 01:24:54.359
been the key to our marriage, is like having open

1582
01:24:54.399 --> 01:24:58.359
communication about things like that and having a fair division

1583
01:24:58.439 --> 01:25:02.039
of labor because there are you know, things that just

1584
01:25:02.119 --> 01:25:03.680
makes sense for one of us to do or the

1585
01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:06.479
other one to do. And that's you're the way.

1586
01:25:06.319 --> 01:25:09.119
You're looking at We have a fair division of labor,

1587
01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:14.000
I think so. Oh okay, even after more than twenty

1588
01:25:14.119 --> 01:25:16.640
years of marriage, I still don't think we do. But

1589
01:25:16.640 --> 01:25:17.199
that's okay.

1590
01:25:17.600 --> 01:25:19.720
Really, yeah, what do you think is not fair about

1591
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:20.319
that vision?

1592
01:25:20.479 --> 01:25:23.359
I do most of you know, the household chores?

1593
01:25:23.479 --> 01:25:26.199
Well yeah you do. Yeah, but I do a lot

1594
01:25:26.279 --> 01:25:27.960
of work at my job.

1595
01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:33.960
Okay, Well until next time. Here's what I would I

1596
01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:38.159
would say that to you know, this person and listeners,

1597
01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:42.359
like men are trainable and women are. We all are trainable.

1598
01:25:42.520 --> 01:25:48.399
And really you're like saying like you're not you're very conscientious.

1599
01:25:48.479 --> 01:25:48.760
You're not.

1600
01:25:49.119 --> 01:25:52.399
You're very actually compared to most men, I think that

1601
01:25:52.439 --> 01:25:54.880
you're very neat. You're pretty considered.

1602
01:25:54.920 --> 01:25:56.479
I've come a long way over the years. I mean,

1603
01:25:56.479 --> 01:25:59.239
before you knew me, I was I was a big slob.

1604
01:25:59.640 --> 01:26:02.119
Well, like you put your laundry where it goes and

1605
01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:04.199
things like that. And if I ever ask you like,

1606
01:26:04.279 --> 01:26:06.560
I can say, well, I do all the laundry and

1607
01:26:06.600 --> 01:26:07.880
I do all you know, and I could list the

1608
01:26:07.960 --> 01:26:10.680
things that I do that you don't. But the one

1609
01:26:10.680 --> 01:26:13.800
thing that you do which is very considerate is you

1610
01:26:13.880 --> 01:26:16.479
will often ask if I need help, And if I

1611
01:26:16.520 --> 01:26:19.239
am feeling overwhelmed and I need help, I still can

1612
01:26:19.279 --> 01:26:21.680
say would you do X Y or Z or can

1613
01:26:21.720 --> 01:26:24.399
you go pick up the groceries from Meyer or whatever

1614
01:26:24.439 --> 01:26:29.119
it is? And you're always great about that. So, yeah,

1615
01:26:29.119 --> 01:26:31.640
we're not perfect. We still have our little, you know, squabbles,

1616
01:26:31.680 --> 01:26:33.800
but you know, at the end of the day, I

1617
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:39.039
think that it's communication and it's sometimes you have to

1618
01:26:39.119 --> 01:26:42.039
let things go. So to this mom, I would be like, okay,

1619
01:26:42.520 --> 01:26:45.560
maybe you should have you know, I'll clean up the

1620
01:26:45.560 --> 01:26:47.560
bathroom after the baths and you can clean up the

1621
01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:50.439
kitchen after because I know she's exhausted, but still, you

1622
01:26:50.479 --> 01:26:52.560
know your husband's exhausted too, he's worked all day.

1623
01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:56.439
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just having some clarity around who's responsible

1624
01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:58.439
for what and having an agreement on it. I think

1625
01:26:58.439 --> 01:26:59.800
that would go a long way to help.

1626
01:27:00.359 --> 01:27:02.560
Okay, I had another one, but I think we've gone

1627
01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:03.520
pretty long already.

1628
01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:05.399
This is a long episode.

1629
01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:08.640
Thank you so much for your support, Thank you for listening.

1630
01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:13.680
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1631
01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:16.479
follow and subscribe. Find us on social media, or send

1632
01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:19.880
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1633
01:27:20.039 --> 01:27:23.640
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1634
01:27:24.199 --> 01:27:27.239
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1635
01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:30.920
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1636
01:27:31.199 --> 01:27:57.319
Don't kill your wife, Don't Kill your husband.

1637
01:28:05.840 --> 01:28:08.279
Companion the c