Kimberly and Christopher Vaughn - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned and over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina. How are you? I'm doing good? How are you? I'm great? So it is February eighth that we're recording this, and the super Bowl is happening tomorrow. Sure is? Do you want to give a prediction? I just don't care. Oh wow, not at all.

0:41 No I do, I do. I'm just still win. I think the Chiefs will win. Do you think so? Yes, I think they'll win handily. Do you think that Travis will propose to Taylor after the game? You know, I hadn't even considered that possibility, but now that you mentioned. It would be the only reason I would watch. Happened like at halftime during the halftime show, I don't even know. Hendrick Lamar. That sounds right. And it's almost Valentine's Day. It sure is. Thank you in advance for the lovely gift. Yeah, you're welcome. I think you know what it is already. I'm making you Macarone. Oh, and you bought me flowers today when you went to the grocery store, which was very nice of you. You're making a face like it wasn't that nice. Not sure what the face.

1:25 Well, I thought that maybe possibly you bought me flowers because you knew we were recording today and you wanted me to say on air that, oh, I have the best husband. He bought me flowers today. Is not true at all. That's a very cynical view of things. I was at the store and I was thinking about my beautiful, lovely wife, and I happened to see flowers. I thought I should get some flowers. I don't want to air our dirty laundry. But you did kind of get in trouble recently for something, nothing major, but so I think that was maybe a little repentance. Not sure about that. So you are making macarones. Yeah, com and he is having a virtual macarone baking class this week, why, just for fun. Well, my company's based in France, as you know. So they're having this company that it's called the Little French Bakery. They're here in the US, but they do baking classes. So we'll see how they turn out.

2:15 How long is that class slated for? I have two hours? Oh wow, yeah, that's a lot. That's a long time. Yeah, so Thursday night, I'll be that's that night. I think Thursday night. Yeah. Oh okay. So you have to take time out of your personal time to do the class. Yes, and it was voluntary, totally voluntary. But I thought it would be fun. I have never made macarons before. It just seems like too much trouble for one bite. It does seem like a lot of words. But I think they're delicious. I can't. I'm sure you're gonna do great, baker. Yeah, I hope they turn out. Okay, I'm a little worried. But there's a lot of nuances. Yeah, it seems like it. And there's cream cheese and the recipe too, so oh not too excited about that flavor. Did you decide what flavor you're making?

2:56 No, I don't know. Okay, well, speaking of snacks and food, I did so. I'm from Chicago, you're from Detroit, and today's case takes place in Chicago, and I wanted to solve something once and for all. What is better Detroit style or Chicago style? Pizza? Are you talking about pizza. Talking about pizza, Well, the answer is Detroit style. Okay, Well, I'm glad that you're keeping it open mind. Will you try to keep an open mind when you sample these two pizzas. They're both frozen. I was gonna get like gold Belly and I have one shipped in from Chicago. But they do sell a Chicago style frozen pizza in our grocery store and the Detroit style that we get at Costco. And I know that you love this frozen pizza.

3:43 It is the best frozen pizza I think in the world. It is MotorCity pizza we get at Costco and it's really good. But the other one is from Gino's Gino's. East classic Chicago style pizza. So try to keep an open mind, all right, I'll do my best. What did you think? I think as far as frozen pizza goes, they're both very good. But I do like the Detroit style a little bit better. I think in real life though, like pizza, you know, not frozen pizza, I definitely prefer Detroit style over Chicago style. Well, I just think Chicago style is like too it's too thick, it's too much.

4:24 Like you do have one place near US that does Chicago style the Anthony's Pizza. They're both similar pizzas. They both have a thicker crust, and they both have probably more cheese than you would have on a pizza. Both typically have the sauce on top, like not the sauce isn't under the cheese, it's over the cheese cheese, although on this frozen pizza, the sauce is under the cheese. This frozen pizza, I would have to give it to the Detroit style too. I think in real life I would choose Chicago style. I'm just surprised Detroit style pizza hasn't caught on nationwide because I really do think it's pretty amazing. What do you think is so amazing? It just got a really good flavor to it. It's something about the crust and the type of cheese and kind of the caramelization of the crust. It's just I don't know something about I don't know exactly what it is.

5:11 The Toroy style crust is different. It was originally baked in an auto parts tray, some sort of tray, and it's almost like a focaca bread on the bottom. Because I think there's a fair amount of oil in it and it gets. Crispier, right, Yeah, I think so. So it's square and Chicago style are usually round and they usually have a lot of cheese, very very thick. Yeah, you like you're an expert, Like you've had so much Chicago style pizza and you're a little. Fair amount in my life, not as much as you. But I can't say enough about the Motor City Pizza Company, the frozen pizza that we get at Costco. Recently, I got it at Meyer and it wasn't as good because the one that you get from Costco has the little chunky bits of pepperoni and circle pepperoni. The one admirer didn't have the other pepperonis. So if you have a Costco membership, definitely get it there. So what would you rate both of those?

5:59 I'd give the the Detroit style eight out of ten, the Chicago Style seven out of ten. If it were Buddi's pizza, you would probably give it a t Like a fresh Buddy, you would give it ten nights, Yeah, for sure. In defense of the Gino's pizza, there was a quick cook method where you put it in the microwave for six minutes and then you put it in the oven, and I did that, and it probably would have been better had I cooked it for the fifty five minutes or whatever. Don't take shortcuts people. Yeah, well it was on the box. I was like, But anyway, I think they were both great. Today, I'm going to tell you the story of Kimberly and Christopher Vaughan. Thank you to our listener Kyle for recommending this case. Today's case involves death of young children and discussion of suicide. Please listen with care. If you are ready to leave father and mother and brother and sister and wife and child and friends and never see them again. If you have paid your debts and made your will and settled all your affairs, and I are a freeman, then you are ready for a walk. A pome by Henry David Throw found on Christopher Vaughn's laptop on June fourteenth, two thousand and seven. The Vaughan family, Chris thirty two, his wife Kim thirty four, and their three children, twelve year old Abigail, eleven year old Cassandra, an eight year old Blake, woke up early in their home in Oswego, Illinois for a day of family fun Oswego, about an hour south west of Chicago, with a population of thirty five thousand, had been home for the family of five for a little more than a year. The weather that day called for his sizzling temperatures near ninety degrees with oppressive humidity, unseasonably warm for Illinois. In mid June, Christopher Vaughan took

7:31 the day off work to surprise his wife and children with a day trip to Knight's Action Park and Caribbean Water Adventure in Springfield, Illinois, a three hour, twelve minute drive from their home. Chris had worked late the previous night and only slept for a few hours while wearing his clothes from the previous day. The family of five hit the road before the sun was up between four thirty and four forty five a m. So they would be back to Oswego later that afternoon for Abbey's soccer practice. She was a star goalie who had just been invited to join a travel team. Can imagine getting kids up at four thirty in the morning. I guess if you're going to do something fun easy. Honestly, that was my first thought too, Yeah, or if you got me up and was like, hey, let's get the water park. It's four am. The last thing eleven year old Sandy asked her dad was if she had to brush her hair. Before they left, Chris and Kim packed towels, swimsuits, sunscreen, and a cooler with snacks and drinks.

8:23 Kim brought along two books to read during the long road trip. One snuggled into the car with their blankets and stuffed animals. The children all fell back to sleep curiously. The water park didn't open until ten am. The Vonnds, if unencumbered with any extra stops, would arrive by eight am, two hours early. Shortly after they got on the road, Kim felt nauseous and asked Chris to pull over. Kim took medication for migraines that sometimes upset her stomach. Chris exited Interstate fifty five and drove south on the Bluff Road exit. Had he turned north on Bluff Road, there was a subdivision with more lighting, but to the south it was dark, isolated, and wooded. Chris pulled onto an isolated gravel cell tower access road in Shanahan Township, about forty minutes from their house. They were in will County near Juliette. The sun hadn't yet risen, and the short road was really more of like a driveway, was shrouded in darkness, with trees obscuring the view from the road.

9:18 While Kim tried to steady herself, Chris checked the tires on the roof lugagrack that had been rattling during the drive. When he opened the door to re enter the suv, he noticed blood dripping from his leg and his left hand. He was confused why he was bleeding. He tumbled out of the suv, disoriented. I need help, he thought to himself. He had no memory of being shot or hearing a gun. He just knew that he was bleeding. Chris fled the vehicle and limped along the road looking for help. He walked about a football fields distance when he flagged down a man in a black pickup truck at five eighteen a m. Sunrise that day was at five fourteen a m. I always feel like a detective when I'm like, when was the sunrise that I could go back to weather dot com or whatever. He asked the man to call the police. Chris had walked less than three hundred feet from the Ford expedition and didn't seem to have a sense of urgency even though his life was potentially in danger.

10:11 So he's standing outside of his car with his family in the car, and he suddenly realizes he's bleeding, And probably he. Didn't realize he was bleeding until he got back into the car, Okay. But either way, and then he just like he just leaves his family there to go look for help. Yes, okay, he doesn't know the state of anyone else. Okay, seems very odd. Kim and Chris's cell phones were in the Vaughn's suv, so it's unclear why didn't he just use one of them to call nine to one one himself. The man in the pickup truck asked Chris if he'd been in a motorcycle accident. A dazed and confused Chris said, no, I think my wife just shot me. Hmm, he thinks his wife shot him. The story is not adding up at all for me so far, but I'm sure I'll learn more.

10:55 I'm most baffled at this point why he didn't use his own cell phone and why he has a vehicle. Why didn't he just drive his vehicle to help? Yeah. Kimberly Ellen Phillips was born on December twelfth, nineteen seventy two, in San Antonio, Texas, to Susan and Dell Phillips. Kim grew up with her twin sister, Susan Jennifer, and an older sister, Elizabeth Nicole, in Saint Charles, Missouri, a suburb of Saint Louis with the population of about seventy thousand. Her mother was a high school teacher and her father was an attorney. Kim was bright, friendly and warm. She made friends easily and was well liked. She was active in high school. She played volleyball and was in Key Club, pep Club, choir, and other activities.

11:37 What is Key Club? Well, I'm glad you asked. Rich. Key Club members around the world are learning how to lead and stand for what's right through service and volunteerism. In partnership with their local Kawanis Club. High school students are making a positive impact as they serve others in their schools and communities. It's a growing organization with global reach. With hundreds of clubs in forty five countries. The impact of Key Clubs can be felt all over the world. It's weird that you knew that right off the top of your head Yeah. Kim graduated in nineteen ninety one and went off to college. The importance of education and lifelong learning had always been underscored to Kim and her siblings. Christopher Douglas Vaughn was born on September twenty sixth, nineteen seventy four, in Indiana.

12:18 He also grew up in Saint Charles, Missouri, with his parents, Gail and Pierre or Pete. Chris was the oldest of three boys. Eric was thirteen months behind Chris, and Adam came four years later. The Vaughans were a close knit family who enjoyed sports and outdoor activities, especially fishing. Chris attended Francis Howell High School. He played soccer and was a member of the National Honor Society. Chris was never one to seek out the spotlight. Quiet and reserved, he preferred to blend into the background, but he wasn't a loner. In high school, he steered clear of serious relationships, but he didn't mind a little attention from girls, enjoying the occasional flirtation without ever getting too attached. He graduated in nineteen ninety three. The summer after graduate, Chris and his brother worked at the local miniature golf course and driving range.

13:04 One night when Chris wasn't working, his brother met a friend of a friend, Kim Phillips, for the first time. With her quick wit, bright smile, and bubbly personality. Chris's brother was immediately taken with Kim, but quickly realized she was too old for him, but thought she might be a great match for Chris and help him out of his shell. You've got to meet this girl, he urged his older brother. I'm not buying this story. Would I just don't think a guy would be like, Oh, she's too old for me, So I'm gonna introduce her to my brother. Kim was two years older than Chris, so she's at least three years older than the brother. She probably wouldn't have been interested in him. When Chris and Kim met, they had an instant connection. Before long, they were spending most of their free time together. Chris's parents were unhappy about the new relationship and hoped it was just a summer fling. They didn't want anything to get in the way of his studies. But at summer's end, when Kim and Chris both went to their respective colleges, they were determined to maintain their relationship. Chris attended the University of Missouri Rolla to study electrical engineering. It was a big deal because he was the first member of the Vaughan family to attend college. His grades were not great his first semester, and his parents blamed his relationship with Kim Dell Phillips. Kim's dad didn't mind driving Kim to see Chris on the weekends. The Vaughns are upset about this arrangement as Chris's grades nos dive further. At the end of Chris's first year of college, Kim became pregnant. They both decided to drop out of college and get married.

14:30 On the Murder in Illinois podcast, Gail Vaughan said, quote, Chris was her night in shining Armor and solved all of her problems for her. Gail Vaughan, Chris's mom like a lot of the other moms that like Chris Wats's mom, and she's just one of those mothers that her son could, her son can do. And the podcast Murder in Illinois is basically told from the Vaughn's perspective, and it was hard for me to listen to because they talk about Chris in like these glowing ways, how Kim wasn't worthy of him and she and she kind of ruined his life. Neither said of parents were thrilled about them dropping out of college, but Chris knew he could be successful without a college degree. They were married on June seventeenth, nineteen ninety four. Kim was twenty one and Chris was nineteen.

15:19 Abigail Elizabeth was born on December fifteenth, nineteen ninety four. The young family lived with Kim's parents until they could afford a place of their own. This arrangement caused tension between the Phillips and Vaughan families. Chris's parents thought the Phillips were preventing them from seeing their grandchild. On the Murder in Illinois podcast, Pierre Vaughan, Chris's father called Del Phillips an ambulance chaser. He said, quote Kimberly's people are bookworms and college people. They've never camped or hiked. They weren't outdoors people at all. They were professional students. Kim was very sheltered. Chris was building his resume while Kim stayed home with Abby. He frequently changed jobs, searching for higher pay and better titles, and Ellen was born fifteen months after her sister, on March twelfth, nineteen ninety six.

16:05 Later that summer, the Vaughns bought a newly constructed home in Saint Peter's, Missouri. On April nineteenth, nineteen ninety nine. Blake rounded out the family. Kim was an active, devoted mother, while Chris worked long hours. Neighbors commented on how sweet and polite the children were and what a loving mother Kim was, but Chris was less popular. He could be blunt and unpleasant, unafraid to confront a neighbor over minor issues. When people met Kim and Chris, they thought they were a mismatched pair, but they seemed happy together. One neighbor had a more favorable opinion of Chris, quote, he is a great guy, very active, very loving. The neighbors said that Kim loved to cook and read, and everything centered around her kids and their activities. Quote, she was just a very spirited and energetic person who loved life. She was very talkative, social and got along with everyone.

16:54 In June two thousand and one, the Vaughan family moved from their native Missouri to Samamish, Washington. Less than ten miles from Microsoft headquarters. Chris got his private investigator's license and started a company, Stonebridge Security, which specialized in identifying computer fraud and preventing and investigating cybercrimes. I was surprised that that took a private investigator's license. Yeah, that is kind of unusual. Probably a good combination though. Yeah. His business did well and he quickly gained several clients. Neighbor Kelly Taylor said, quote, Christopher was very well known for being good at what he did because there were not a lot of those kinds of people out there. Unquote. Another neighbor got a bad vibe from Chris. Quote he was a little bit for my taste, domineering, some would say, controlling, kind of old fashioned. Hello, it's six o'clock dinner. I don't see my dinner on the table. And then he'd kind of snicker like he was kidding, but I knew he wasn't kidding. It's just like you, so much like me.

17:52 Another neighbor said, quote, he walks with a swagger. Kimberly and Christopher made an odd couple. She was an abuliant social butterfly with a million dollar smile. He was taciturn withdrawn and occasionally given to angry confrontations. That neighbor had a good vocabulary. Yeah, Kim wanted a career, but Chris urged her to stay home with the children. As a compromise, she took classes in criminal justice at the University of Phoenix, an online college. In two thousand and five, Chris was recruited by Navigant Consulting to join their computer forensics group in Chicago. That summer, the Vaughns sold their home in Washington for a one hundred and twelve thousand dollars profit and moved to a townhouse in Aurora, Illinois. While they waited for their new home they'd purchased in Oswego to be built, a neighbor in their complex complained of hearing arguing and door slamming.

18:39 I think that Chris also continued to run his business out of their apartment, but it's unclear what happened to the company, but by December two thousand and six, he did not renew the business license. Washington State claims that Chris still owes them back taxes. Chris's job with Navigant required him to travel frequently, usually to Utah, Washington, or Mexico. Neighbors said he would leave on Tuesday and return home on Sunday. Do you think it's odd that he would come home on Sunday? Usually come home on a Thursday or a Friday. I mean, yeah, for most businesses, they run Monday through Friday. So though possibly he was installing software over the weekend or something like that. Certainly possible, yeah, but I would say unusual. His parents said that he earned a salary of two hundred thousand dollars a year, plus bonuses.

19:23 When I learned that, I thought that seemed like an awful lot of money for someone who's thirty years old, it doesn't have a college degree. Yeah, that seems like a huge salary for that. Yeah, it adjusted for inflation, it would be three hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year. Do you think that salary seems really high? That seems really unlikely to me for the job that he was doing. I mean, I work in the IT industry. I've worked in the IT industry for a long time. Certainly possible if you had your own business, but I wouldn't think he'd be making that much money for a consulting firm at that point. In May two thousand and six, the Vaughns moved into their new thirty three hundred square foot home with four bead rooms and two and a half baths in Oswego, Illinois. They took out two mortgages to pay for the four hundred and seventeen thousand dollars home that would be six hundred and fifty thousand dollars today.

20:10 One mortgage was for three hundred and thirty three thousand dollars and the other one was for eighty three thousand. They put almost no money down, even though they'd made a large profit on their home in Washington. Although there didn't seem to be any signs of financial trouble, Kim was immediately well liked and a favorite with the neighbors. After their move to their new house in the gated community, she worked as a substitute para professional at the children's school and also at their subdivision clubhouse and pool while she continued to take classes. Days before her death, on June ninth, Kim walked in a graduation ceremony with her University of Phoenix classmates. She received a blank diploma because she still had a couple of credits to finish but Kim was very proud of her accomplishment. The last known picture of the Vaughan family is from the ceremony. Kim is beautiful and beaming in her cap, black robe and purple sash, surrounded by her sweet children, while Christopher is wearing sunglasses, looking aloof and unenthused to be there.

21:05 Do you remember I showed you the picture and I was like, does this guy look like a real douche to you? Oh? Yeah, side too, remember that? And yes he did. Although he had taken her out to dinner and a movie the night before to celebrate, and after the ceremony, there was a little surprise party for Kim. On the night of June thirteenth, two thousand and seven, Kim and Chris had their neighbors over for dinner. Earlier that day, Kim had taken Sandy to camp Invention, gone grocery shopping, worked at the clubhouse, taken the kids swimming, and then came home to start cooking. Everyone who saw Kim that day said she seemed happy, upbeat, and excited for a week and away with Chris. Chris worked that day before heading to the shooting range. Grainy footage shows him wearing jeans, cowboy boots, and a fleece jacket, an unusual choice given the sweltering heat outside and the even higher temperatures inside the shooting range. When Chris got home, he didn't shower or change He placed his unloaded gun in its path case in his closet before he fired up the grill to cook steaks for dinner for their neighbors, the Andreliks, their closest friends in the neighborhood. Later, when the Andreliks testified in court, they said Kim and Chris never mentioned any plans to go to a water park the next day. After their guests left, Kim stayed up working on school work until about eleven PM before she headed to bed, and records from the University of Phoenix confirmed this time. Chris worked most of the night. He said he took a nap for a few hours, but never actually went to bed. Around four am, he woke up his family and told them they were going to the water park for the day. Despite his late night

22:36 and the warm temperatures, Chris never changed out of the clothes that he had worn since the previous day. I know I keep talking about what he's wearing, but I think it's important. Okay. So, yeah, Chris was wearing jeans, cowboy boots, a long sleeved t shirt, and a fleece jacket. Interesting. Where were they going, Yeah, to a water park. And the implication too that they didn't tell the neighbors anything about going to a water park the next day is that Kim maybe didn't know about it. Like it was like he it was a surprise from Chris that he woke them up at four am and said, hey. It wasn't something that they had planned. Okay. On June fourteenth, two thousand and seven, the man in the black pickup truck, John Spear, put Chris in his truck and applied pressure to his leg wound while he called nine one one. When paramedics arrived at the scene minutes later at five twenty four am, Chris and John were waiting outside the pickup down the road from the Forward Expedition. Officers noted Chris's bloody jacket, shirt and pants.

23:31 He only offered to police that he and his family were on their way to Springfield to visit a water park. Then he pointed them in the direction of the suv, but didn't accompany them. John Spear noticed that Vaughn didn't tell law enforcement that his wife shot him as he did him. This doesn't make any like how far away were they from the car with his wife and kids? And so he goes they called nine to one one, and he doesn't bother to go back and check on them or go back. It makes no sense. I see no error in your logic. Officers were met with a scene of unimaginable horror and devastating sadness as they approached the Vaughan's forward expedition. A long trail of crimson blood two hundred feet long, trickled towards them as they walked down the desolate road. Shocking blood spatter from inside the suv was visible from the vehicle's exterior. Shards of glass listened on the pavement in the early morning light from the shattered driver's side window. They approached the vehicle cautiously, afraid a threat still loomed inside, but there was no movement. The bodies of Kimberly, Abigail, Cassandra, and Blake were sprawled across the seats, slumped over and lifeless.

24:39 They were all pronounced dead at the scene. No life saving measures were administered. The crime scene was so gut wrenching even the most seasoned responding officers wept openly. A police chaplain rushed to the scene to offer support and counseling. Christopher Vaughan remained stone faced and silent as the investigation ensued. At eleven a m the Vaughan's read Ward Expedition, which held all of the forensic evidence from the crime and would unlock the truth of how the tragedy unfolded, was covered with a large tarp and towed away on a flatbed trailer to the will County Morgue with the four deceased bodies still inside. The investigation relied on blood spatter, bullet trajectories, and gunpowder residue to tell the story this I mean not that that wasn't hard, but this part is really hard to hear too. The children, all still buckled in the back seat, were each shot twice. Abigail, sitting behind the driver's seat, was shot once in the head and once in the chest. In fact, all three children had one shot in the head and one to the chest. Abby clutched a stuffed animal and held a Harry Potter book on her lap. Cassandra was in the middle, a copy of Charlotte's Web sticking out of the seat pocket in front of her, and Blake, the youngest, sat behind Kim in the passenger seat with his blanket on his lap, his hands raised in a defensive position. He was shot in the under arm area. Kim suffered one fatal blow under her chin. Her seat belt was unbuckled and retracted. When investigators extended the seatbelt, they found it soaked in blood, a detail that would become a key point of contention. They believe Chris had unbuckled Kim's seatbelt

26:13 in an attempt to stage the scene, making it appear as though she had reached into the back seat to shoot the children. A Taurus nine millimeter semi automatic handgun, the same gun Chris had taken to the shooting range, was found in the suv and he were Kim's feet, next to her red purse and the two books that she'd brought along. Chris had purchased the gun when they lived in Washington State. A neighbor recalled the Kim hated guns and made Chris keep it in his jeep in the locked glove box. There was one round left in the chamber. Of the gun. Later, Chris claimed he didn't know how it got in the suv, although he had fired the gun the previous night at the shooting range. He said he'd put the gun back in the bedroom closet and they were in the Ford expedition. The other car that they owned was a jeep, and the jeep was usually his car, so it was like, how did the gun get into the expedition. Friends and family said that Chris liked to hunt and was good with guns.

27:05 Kim had very limited experience with guns. She was the type of mother who didn't even let her children play with squirt guns. She had visited a gun range with Chris only once or twice. She laughed while telling a friend that the only time she hit the target was when she'd closed her eyes. Ten spent casings and eight fired bullets were found in the suv. In a small, enclosed base such as a vehicle, gunshot residue tests are inconclusive because matter floats through the air and lands on everything. Although investigators stated that they didn't believe there was enough gunshot residue on Kim's hands to indicate that she had fired a gun, gunshot residue was found on the band of Chris's underwear, his jacket, sleeves, and jacket pocket. We'll be back after a break.

27:56 Paramedics treated Chris at the scene for a gunshot wound to his left eye and a three centimeter grazing wound on his left wrist. Neither were life threatening. Although the bullet had passed through his leg, his jeans had a bullet entrance hole on the left upper thigh and an exit hole on the left outer seam, so it sounds like the bullet kind of went from the right to left, like it came into his thigh from his right exited on his left. Yes, glass was found on his pants and inside his jacket pocket. Paramedics and law enforcement observed Chris's lack of emotion. While he could be in shock, they did not see any clear signs of it. When the paramedics began to cut the cowboy boot off of his foot, he protested angrily, he did not ask about Kim or the children's condition.

28:42 When you're in shock, I believe that your blood pressure goes down, and his was up. Okay, So they didn't think that he had. It seemed like he was maybe trying to fake that he was in shock. Yeah. Christopher was taken to Provina Saint Joseph Medical Center at five point fifty six am and Juliet for X rays and further treatment. He was lucky the bullet had passed through his leg and didn't hit any major arteries or bone, although it did just miss his penis and the wrist wound was just a grazing wound. He told his doctors and nurses that he couldn't remember what had happened. He didn't even realize that he had been shot until they told him at the hospital. Okay. Chris was angry about his fleece jacket that had been damaged by paramedics. He said he'd purchased the jacket recently when he visited Canada's Yukon territories. He asked a nurse to call his wife. He explained that she gets mad when she doesn't know where to find him. He didn't ask about the children. Once again, his stoic demeanor was noted.

29:39 That seemed like the way someone would act if they wanted to act like they were in shock, like call my wife. You know, yeah, and not displaying any emotion. After he was released from the hospital, Christopher Vaughan agreed to be questioned by the police. He went to the District five State Police headquarters in Lockport for questioning at about nine forty five. Am Arson, an Illinois State Police sergeant, was the lead investigator on the case. Larson read Chris his Miranda rights before the interview started. The interview started slowly. Chris again claimed he didn't remember what happened. After they'd stopped on the service road. He offered that he and Kim had been having marital troubles, but he was surprising her with a weekend away. He admitted that he had had an affair. He was oversharing.

30:24 It was odd that Chris told police that he was planning this surprise getaway for Kim when she had told a lot of people about it. On Thursday, they were going to the water park, but the next day they were going We'll talk about it in a minute, but they were just a couple trip planned. Okay, So the surprise trip, according to him, was after the water park, the weekend away. It was day but she knew about that, yeah, but he didn't. He told the police that it was a surprise. So I don't know why he did that. Because she was packing. She told her sister and her friends about it. Gotcha. An hour and eleven minutes into the interview, Lawson told Chris about his family's fate, quote, Chris, your wife and your kids are all dead. Chris was incredulous to the new information and asked to speak with Kim. Larsen made it clear that Chris was a suspect in the murders and asked why he killed his family.

31:11 No, that's not possible. They're all shot, Chris, They're dead, no longer here. That's not possible. Can you just bring Kim in? Did you kill your wife? Did you kill your kids? I could never How did they die? They're not dead? This is some weird show. My kids are fine. Say it. Say my wife and kids are dead. They're not gone. Gone is going to the store. They're not gone. They're dead. You can shake your head, cover your eyes. The answers are not in the palm of your hands. I have nothing to go home to. I don't know how to face my parents, her parents. I couldn't have done this, Kimberly couldn't have done this. I have no one to go home to, no one to take to soccer, No reason to do anything. This wasn't some master plan.

32:01 The detective said that it was some of the worst acting that they had ever seen. Can I just jump in and say, that's why I wasn't giving my I know, I was. Thinking that it was bad acting, but now I realized it was actually brilliant acting, really nailed it. Chris never asked how Kim and the children had died. When I asked about their birth dates, he couldn't remember. He had no pictures of them in his wallet. He said he had to take them out after it got too thick. He did ask if the police had his watch. It was very important to him. He said, how do you like Chris? Now? I don't like him even a little bit. I hate him. I hated him. So this was a hard one to do because I really don't like him. Yeah, I wish that I could be the podcaster who delivers the whole case, gives you both sides and all the evidence, and then at the very end, the very very end, tell you how I feel. But I think it's always very obvious how I feel, and usually you two, well.

32:51 Yeah, in this case, I think it's it is pretty obvious. Some cases it's a little less obvious. But what a lot of people do think he's innocent, So I do need to say that. Yeah, so far, I can't understand how that is the case, but I'm going to try to withhold judgment until we get further in. By the way, his watch, I haven't seen a picture of it, but it's some sort of tur It's inlaid with turquoise. There's like some turquoise involved in there. Okay. Investigators lied to Chris and told him that there were surveillance cameras on the cell phone tower. All cell phone towers since nine to eleven had cameras on them. They insisted. Chris seemed unbothered and insisted that they show him the footage. Like he seemed excited. He was like, oh, let's let's see the footage.

33:33 Then, well, it's interesting. When asked about the gun that he owned, he claimed he didn't know what kind it was and said it was back at his house. This interview and the two that followed in the coming days were all videotaped. Despite earlier telling John Spear that his wife had shot him, Vaughn now consistently claimed he couldn't remember what happened and didn't recall hearing any gunshots. He said that once he noticed his leg was bleeding, he left the vehicle to go get help, but the blood evidence told the different. Stu. He said that Kim couldn't have shot their children because, quote, she wasn't that type of person. Chris was shown photographs of his four dead family members during the interrogation in hopes of eliciting and emotional response from him. He angrily crumpled a photo and threw it into the corner of the room and swept the other photos onto the floor, except the photo of Blake.

34:21 When the investigators left the room moments later, Chris covered the photo with a file folder. After an emotional morning, they let him take a three hour nap. I've never heard of the police letting a suspect take a three hour nap. No, I haven't either, And I would think, like I know, if they really suspected him of doing this, they would want to keep questioning him even if he was exhausted, because I think they'd be more likely to get a confession out of him. Well, he was also on pain medication, I believe. I think the leg wound, while not life threatening, I'm sure he was still in a lot of pain. Yeah. If Lockport, Illinois sounds familiar, you might remember that on October twenty eighth, two thousand and seven, Stacy Peterson, the wife of police officer Drew Peterson, went missing from bowling Brook, Illinois. Her sister, an advocate, walked into the same Illinois State Police post in Lockport, to report Stacy missing.

35:11 Do you remember Drew Peterson? Oh? I do, Yeah, I hated him too. Yeah, how could you forget Drew Peterson? Right? The Vaughan family murders was a huge story for the Chicago area until the story of Drew Peterson, the suspicious death of his third wife, Kathleen Savio, and the disappearance of his fourth wife, became the prime focus of the media. So the Drew Peterson thing came to light just a few months after the Vaughan Family murders. Then it did. Although I am horrified to tell you that I went back and I was reading the Drew Peterson episode that we did, and I made some mistakes on the dates you did not, Yeah, like the date of the trial. I think I had wrong. My apologies for that, if you go back and listen. Investigators continued to press Chris if he thought Kim could ever murdered the children and shot herself, but he consistently denied that this was possible. And some people think that this points to his possible innocence because he was like, oh, no, Kim couldn't have killed the children, But I think it was just too obvious otherwise, right, yeah. Investigators announced to the public that there was no danger to them because they believed all involved parties had been at the crime scene.

36:19 There was no third party, although they stopped short of naming Chris or Kim as official suspects. Meanwhile, a search took place at the Vaughan home. Several computers, printers, modems, and other electronic devices were taken from the home. Investigators hoped to uncover a motive for the murders on the devices. Notably, a TVO DVR was seized. An episode of Law and Order SVU called Annihilated aired on May eighth, two thousand and seven. It was about a woman and her children who were shot and killed while the husband walked away with minor injuries. The husband later blamed his wife for the shooting. Detectives were curious if the Vaughans had watched it.

36:59 I don't know if it was on the dbor or not, but it must not have been because it was never brought up again. The Vaughan's two dogs, a Schnauzer and a Golden Retriever, were taken by animal control. A neighbor said that Kim loved their dogs like children, and she would have never left them unattended all day while they were at the water park. Investigators traced Chris's online profiles using his computers. He was a frequent contributor to a social networking site called forty three Things. The website was an early social networking platform that connected people with similar likes and goals. Chris was interested in wildlife survival. On May thirteenth, two thousand and seven, Chris had just returned from a solo trip to Canada's Yukon territories. He wrote on the forty three Things website quote, I got back this weekend from a trip to Canada, and let me tell you, it was truly hard to come back after spending even a week up there. I was in the middle of the Yukon literally, I packed everything I needed with me and slept out under the stars and snow.

38:00 Since the primary reason I was up there was to scout the area for a longer visit. I worked on covering a lot of ground and seeing a lot of terrain. The place was crawling with critters. I saw elk, moose, beaver, porcupine, lynx, grizzly fanined sheep, crane wolf, to mention a few. Considering the pays I had said, I consider that a fairly good list of wild life to just stumble into. Most were within twenty to thirty meters, which was unbelievable. The terrain was harsh by my estimates, as it was still cold and subject to extreme changes very quickly. First day it was sunny and eight degrees celsius. The last day it was two degrees below celsius, snowing, and very windy.

38:42 For anyone looking to get this lost in the wilderness, I would highly recommend the Yukon. There were very few towns, fewer roads, and hundreds of kilometers of pure wilderness. It sounds pretty amazing, although I can say I wouldn't want to be quite that close to like a grizzly bear or a lynx. I think this is a really random observation, but it just seems odd to me that he's using the metric system in his descriptions of this. It's like, I don't get it. I guess because he was in Canada. It was pretty much Canadian now, I guess. So. On the day of the murders, at about eleven am, the phone at Gail Vaughan's home ring as she went about her day, unbeknownst of the horrific tragedy that had unfolded early that morning, A reporter from the Chicago Sun Times was on the other end of the line. The reporter asked Gail for some background information about Chris and his family.

39:29 Unaware that she hadn't heard the horrible news, Gail talked to the reporter for a few minutes before realizing it was an odd question. She asked the reporter why she was asking about her son and his family. The reporter was then tasked with telling Gail the worst news that she would ever receive in her life. She told Gail that four of the Vaughans were dead. There was only one survivor, and she didn't know who. Conversely, Kim's parents, Susan Andel, had been informed hours earlier about the deaths of Kim, Abigail Cassandra and Blake. Gale and Pete tried to reach Chris's cell phone, but he didn't answer. Pete called Chris's work number and someone told him that he'd taken a vacation day. Frustrated because they were unable to get any information, they decided to head to Illinois to find Chris. About five hours away. They got to the Illinois State Police post at about ten thirty pm. They were told they couldn't see Chris, and he was not told that his parents were there to support him. The police questioned the Vaughns and then told them to wait.

40:29 After they had waited for a few hours, at about one am, the Vaughns decided to get a hotel for the night. They left their cell phone number with the state police and asked them to give it to Chris as soon as he was done being questioned. They were assured that they would pass along their information to Chris. Chris spent fourteen hours at the police station before complaining that he was tired and asked them to leave. It was nearly two am when the police agreed to drop him off at a motel. They didn't tell him that his parents were in town and didn't give him their cell phone number. Chris's clothing had been taken as evidence, leaving him dressed in nothing but a hospital ground and grippy socks all day, and his cell phone had been confiscated.

41:09 Chris had no way to contact anyone and was unable to return home. Police placed him in a taxi, still wearing just a hospital gown and socks, and sent him to the fair Field and Juliet. That's pretty odd. When Chris arrived at the Fairfield, they refused to give him a room because of the way he was dressed in addition to his bloody bandages. That's bizarre. He visited two more motels before a Super eight motel agreed to rent him a room. What say about the Super eight motel? They're nice? Turned away from every motel that Super eight. We'll take you. The next morning, when the Vaughans awoke, they called the police station to see where Chris was, and they told him that they dropped him off at the fair Field Inn.

41:52 But when they drove there to see him, he wasn't there. So this whole thing, I have a little bit of sympathy for everyone, because. It's just the police did not handle this part of it, well at all. I just always assumed that they had, you know, some extra like sweatpants or something. That you, yeah, you would think. They continue to drive around until they finally found Chris at the Super eight. Gail said he was in shock and unable to communicate. So usually when you're in shock, I think it's a relatively short amount of time. So Gail went out and bought Chris some new clothes, shoes, and fresh bandages for his wounds. The three of Wan's checked into another hotel, a Holiday in Express, because the houses they can't go back to Chris's house right Later that morning, Chris and Susan Phillips, Kim's mom, had an awkward phone call. He told her that he didn't know what to say, and she said the same. Susan asked that Kim and the children be buried together in Saint Charles, their hometown, and Chris agreed. The call only lasted two minutes.

42:49 Chris returned to the police station for two more hours of questioning, and return once again on Sunday, Father's Day for an undisclosed amount of time. The media hounded the Phillips family for reaction to the horrible tragedy. Susan told them that Kim and Chris loved their children beyond measure and they were always a pleasure to spend time with. She said Chris treated her daughter like a princess and doted on her. He had recently bought her a new diamond ring, and he was supportive of her continuing her education. Kim's sister, Nicki Eisman, told the News quote, There's no way I would believe it was her. There is no way she would have heard her children. She could not bear to see her children cry and was so averse to them experiencing any pain that she couldn't remove their splinters.

43:33 We need to know exactly what unfolded on June fourteenth. We need answers. Nicki had talked to her sister two days before her death and said that she was in great spirits and she looked forward to her future with Chris, Abby, Sandy, and Blake. So I think I'd mentioned this before. Kim is really close to her family. She has a twin. She talks to her sisters and mom multiple times a day. Technically, Chris had planned a trip for Kim on June sixteenth and seventeenth to celebrate their thirteenth wedding anniversary in Herman, Missouri. He had booked to stay at the same bed and breakfast where they had honeymooned. Investigators later called and confirmed the reservation. Chris's mom, Gail, and her sister were set to stay with the kids in Oswego while they were away. Unfortunately, Kim never got to go on that second honeymoon. But this trip wasn't just about romance. It was Chris's attempt to make things right. According to Chris, things had been rocky between them for months. Ever since a work trip to Mexico in December, Chris had visited a strip club and then spent the night with some women. Kim and Chris had been fighting ever since. He told the police quote, I had too much to drink and went home with a few of the ladies. I made a bigger mistake by telling her I get to sleep in the office.

44:44 So he went home with a few of the ladies. Yeah, that seems a little m strange. Investigators didn't doubt that he had cheated, but they did question if he really had told Kim. Was he planting a motive for her? If she was so angry and compelled to kill him, wouldn't she had confided in someone Like I said. She was really close with her family, so I think that she would have mentioned it to them. Well, yeah, and you said she talked to her sister two days before, right and seem fine? Yeah, And I think she had talked to her other sister the day before A few times. Chris was a very reserved, introverted guy, and I kind of doubt that he had this alleged affair m because for him to go home with one woman would be maybe not like him, but multiple women.

45:29 I mean, the only way I would think is if he was paying these women, like if they were prostitutes. I still don't see him if he was paying a woman for sex, paying more than one woman for sex. But I could be wrong. Who knows. Despite his claim that their marriage had imploded, he told investigators that he and Kim planned to stay together, but only until their children graduated high school. Then they would go their separate ways. However, Kim never mentioned this arrangement to anyone. Outward appearances suggested that they were a busy, happy family. They had another trip to the Wisconsin Dell's coming up, as well as other trips to see family members in Missouri. They were always planning fun spontaneous activities, both as a couple and with their kids. Chris didn't seem like a man trying to escape a bad marriage.

46:14 In fact, Kim's sister said that he treated his wife like a princess. The Phillips and Vaughan families came together to plan the funeral for Kim and the children, but it was anything but easy. Even under the best circumstances, it would have been an emotional and stressful process, but their history of tension made it even more difficult. The Vaughns often felt looked down upon by the Phillips for their lack of formal education. Since the Phillips family was covering the funeral costs, the Vaughns let them take the lead on most of the decisions. However, this created resentment that only grew over time. Tensions escalated further when the Phillips family demanded access to the house as well as Kim's jewelry and personal belongings, something that deeply offended and angered the Vaughns. On Saturday, June twenty seven, hundreds of friends and family members gathered at New Hope Presbyterian Church in Saint Charles, Missouri, to say goodbye to Kim, Abigail, Cassandra, and Blake Vaughan. It was the same church where the children had been baptized as babies. The mourners were greeted with two hundred enlarged family photos of the Vaughans that filled the church. Only one photo contained Chris. The four caskets remained closed during the funeral. Pete, Chris's dad, and one of his brothers, served as pallbearers. Kim was buried in her cap and gown that she had worn just a week earlier. Abigail was buried with two unicorns, Cassandra with a frog snow globe, and Blake with a Saint Louis Cardinal's baseball cap. Chris had kept a low profile during the visitation the day before the funeral, speaking with

47:46 few people. He was given a moment alone with his wife and children in their caskets, but Chris was conspicuously absent from the funeral. Throughout their investigation, the police had maintained that the shooter was either Kim or Chris. There was no evidence of a third party being involved. However, they never revealed which one they considered their primary suspect. At the end of the funeral service, the church pastor quietly spoke with the Phillips family, who sat in the front row, and told them Chris had been arrested for the murders hours earlier. The family reportedly gasped, shook their heads, cried, and quickly left the church. Chris was charged with eight counts of first degree murder for the shooting deaths of Kim and his three children, two counts for each victim.

48:29 The first four charges were intent to kill and the other four were intent to cause death or bodily harm. Chris was apprehended inside of the funeral home at seven point fifty am, hours before his family was laid to rest. An employee of the funeral home asked him to step into a private room to discuss Kim's jewelry. When he entered the room, the police were there to arrest him. So what do you think about that. It's kind of a tough one. On the one hand, I have no sympathy for Chris because I believe from everything that we've talked about so far that he killed his family. So yeah, arrest him. But at the same time, you're innocent until proven guilty, so it does seem a little weird that. They didn't seem like it was a little bit of a rush to judgment.

49:10 Yeah. Oh, this case, the evidence was I think pretty held tightly held until the trial, so we don't know how much evidence they had compiled at this point. The grand jury did indict him, but they did cross state lines to arrest him, so he would have to be extradited later. M hmm. I do have sympathy for the rest of Chris's family because once he was arrested, I'm sure his parents and his other relatives knew, and I think they deserve to grieve. Yeah, I'm why they wouldn't have just waited till after the funeral. I can see the other side of it too, that he shouldn't be allowed to grieve at the funeral. Yeah, it's a tough call. Investigators believed that they had probable cause for Chris's arrest after the reports came back from the state lab. The nine millimeter handgun found in the SUV was determined to be the murder weapon and had only Chris's fingerprints. Chris was detained in the Saint Charles County Detention Center in Saint Charles, Missouri. The attorney he hired after his arrest, David Waltrip, said his client would fight extradition and that the decision was appropriate within his legal rights, but fighting extradition within the United States is really a losing battle. Vaughan was held on a one million dollar cash only out of state fugitive bond, which was later revoked when authorities realized bond should not be offered in capital cases where there is an extradition treaty.

50:30 The two states tried to expedite the extradition, but a judge gave Vaughan's attorneys thirty days to file emotion contesting the move. Will County DA James Glasgow said, quote, it remains an absolute certainty that mister Vaughan will be returned to Illinois to stand trial on charges of first degree murder. Glasgow dropped four of the eight charges against Christopher. The remaining four charges were murder with the intent to kill. The four drop charges were intent to cause great bodily harm. By July third, he gave up the fight and was returned to Illinois to defend himself. His lawyer said he was sent to the will County Jail and put under suicide watch. He was removed from watch a week later, but remained in protective custody and given a private cell.

51:14 I imagine that he was not very popular with the other prisoners. No, I would think not. At his arraignment, Vaughan pleaded not guilty. By October, Chris had lost forty pounds, bringing his weight from one eighty to one forty, and he was. Only like five foot eight or five foot nine. He wasn't a big guy. A hearing was held to determine if there should be any intervention, but he was determined otherwise healthy. People who knew the Vaughan family felt Chris was likely guilty. Melissa Tovar, a friend of Kim's, said quote, everyone is elated. I think a lot of people had suspicions. During the funeral proceedings in Missouri, the heartbroken community of Oswego held a candlelight vigil outside the Vaughan's home and mounted a memorial on their front lawn with four large white crosses the names Kim, Abby, Sandy, and Blake written on them in a child's printing. In honor of the Vaughan family, children planted Evergreen Saplings. Oswego Schools offered counseling for students.

52:13 This case must have been so devastating to the community and the children. Yeah, it's such a I mean it's a massive loss with you know, three kids, eight children, and Kim. It's not a huge community either, right, so I'm sure it affected a lot of people. Doctor Larry Blum performed the autopsies. Abigail was shot twice below the right eyebrow and in the right lower chest. There was stippling near both of her wounds. The wound on Cassandra's head had stippling, but the wound to Blake's head had little stippling. Blake was also shot on his left under arm, indicating that his hands were raised in a defensive motion. It breaks my heart, like, think about what is happening here. So likely, you know, if you believe Chris was the murderer, he shot Kim first, so she couldn't defend herself. She could have been sleeping, really sure, but I think the kids were sleeping. So Abigail was shot first and she was probably sleeping, and then Cassandra's probably just you know, rousing. Yeah, and then by the time it gets to Blake. Blake's like, what's going on.

53:15 It's so horrible, horrible. Yeah. The one gunshot to Kim was an angle gunshot wound meeting that the muzzle of the gun was in direct contact with her chin. Kim died quickly after the shot was fired. It was estimated that all of the gunshots were eighteen to twenty four inches from the victims, but the shots to their heads were from three to twelve inches. The trajectory of one of the bullets that hit Sandy in the chest clearly showed that it came over the left shoulder of the passenger seat. The trajectories of the other bullets were less clear. A bullet found on the driver's side door of the forward expedition had fibers adhering to it that matched Chris's clothing. There were some unidentified prints on the gun, but all the identifiable prints belonged to Chris. The files on Chris Bahn's laptop were protected by encryption, but Lisa Calaisi of the Illinois State Police was able to decode the device with the help from Chris's employer. The laptop uncovered Chris's dissatisfaction with his career, life and marriage, as well as his secret online persona who had plans to rebuild a new life in Canada. Investigators discovered that Chris rented a storage unit that was filled with camping gear and wilderness survival equipment, tents, sleeping bags, pots and pans, tin cups and plates, boots, tools, whiskey, and even peanut butter. The newly built Von Holme had a large unfinished basement. Why would Chris need to rent a storage unit Because Chris traveled so much, the couple

54:46 often emailed. Kim's emails to Chris and the weeks before her death revealed that she was not only suffering from anxiety and migraines, but she indicated that she was having quote a big personality change. Kim confided and her sister in law Ring a phone conversation that on a recent weekend, she and Chris went away to Jeep Jamboree. Kim had a panic attack when she couldn't gain access to the internet to turn in a school assignment. She said in retrospect she had overreacted and she was embarrassed. Did Kim feel Chris slipping away? Her computer searches included ways to spice up a marriage and how to save a failing marriage. Chris was spending more time away from her and the children.

55:27 In defense of Kim, I don't think that there was a more stressful time in my life. When our kids were younger. They had one hundred different activities and you traveled a lot. So I feel like I kind of understand where Kim was kind of at in her life. Just she's going to school and she's trying to make a little extra money by doing a couple of jobs, and it's just a really stressful time. Yeah, I can totally understand how she was feeling. Chris's lawyer fought to prevent Kim's email from being entered as evidence. They portrayed her as a sweet, loving wife and proud. In one email to a friend, she called Chris her hero. There were no signs that she was suicidal or had an ounce of outrage towards her husband.

56:09 She had talked to her doctor about changes she was feeling and didn't mention feeling suicidal or aggression towards others. Her medical record show. Two weeks after Kim's death, Chris tried to collect on her one million dollar life insurance policy that was taken out in two thousand and four. The policy's suicide clause expired in two thousand and six. The people who defend Chris and think he's innocent point to Kim and say that she was under stress, her marriage was crumbling, she was angry at Chris for having this affair, and there's this mounting evidence that Kim is becoming unhinged. I really don't see that. No, I don't either. I see troubles, right, I mean.

56:52 Obviously trouble. She was a pretty happy person. Right, But the fact that she was searching for how to spice up my marriage and things like that, So she was obviously feeling insecure or troubled about the state of the marriage for whatever reason. But that doesn't that could be just as much of a motive for him to kill her as for her to kill him. Right. Well, and he's the one who is talking about living on his own in Canada. Yeah. Well, as you probably guessed, we're at the end of part one and part two, we're going to find out a lot more about their marriage and Chris and Chris's possible motivations. Yeah, I mean that to me, like his whole dream of starting a new life. That's very typical of the family annihilators like this, Right, they have this vision of themselves in a new life, whether it's with a new woman, or whether it's going to Canada and living in the wilderness or whatever. Like, he had this picture in his mind of a whole new life, and he couldn't have that life if he was still tied down to a family, right.

57:50 Yeah, you nailed it. In my opinion, people like that are never going to be happy. Like, if you're always searching, you think, oh, if I get to Canada, I'm finally going to be happy. Oh if I or my wife, I'm finally going to be happy. If I can be dating a woman that's twenty years older and you know, a natural blonde, I'll be happier. You know. There's just yeah, always, if they're always searching for something, you're never going to be happy. Completely agree. I have some questions for you before we wrap up. Remember when investigators during the interrogation told Chris, we have some footage from this cell phone tower. Why didn't he act nervous? He was like, show me, I'd love to see it. It's a good question. I mean. The first the first thing that that would tell you is that, Oh, maybe he was innocent because he really did want to find answers.

58:35 But at the same time, I feel like he probably knew that was the right way to act, right if he was trying to act like he was innocent, that he should be excited about it. And honestly, if there really was footage, it was gonna you know, that was going to be the end anyway, So why not act like you were enthused about it. I think Chris definitely a smart person. I think he went there. I think he's he did the drive. I think he scoped it out. I think that he knew that there wasn't a camera. I wondered about that too. Yeah, as far as I can tell, Chris wasn't given a polygraph. Why do you think that could have been? I don't know. I mean, polygraphs are really interesting. We talk about it a lot, but I do wonder that, like, why wouldn't they have given him a polygraph or asked him to take one?

59:18 Yeah, I wonder if it was because he was so expressionless. M hmm. Maybe they thought that he would be able to pass it. If Kim asked Chris to stop because she was feeling queasy, wouldn't she get out of the suv? Yeah, and get some fresh air. The kids were still sleeping, and if she was feeling nauseous and she needed to throw up, she would have gotten out of the suv. Right, That's what made me think he stopped in this little driveway area and that's when he shot her when she was probably sleeping. Yeah. And the fact that they left the house so early that they would have gotten to the water park two hours before they opened, that sort of seems to tie in with that, Like if he knew how much time it would have taken to get to where he wanted to stop and do this, and he probably knew she would still be sleeping by them because it was so early in the morning.

1:00:06 Well, he left that time because the sun wasn't quite up yet, right, and he knew it was still dark. Yeah. There were other exits that if Kim wasn't feeling well, like there was a McDonald's or a breast area, but he chose this more desolate area. He said it was because Kim was shy and he just thought, you know, if she was going to get sick, she wanted to be private. Yeah, that seems unlikely. Also as a reader. Kim brought two books. And I think that Chris was implying that she took the gun out of his closet in the morning and that she was going to, you know, kill him and the kids. But why would she have brought two books with her. Yeah, it's a minor detail, but yeah, it's it's one hundred percent right, Like, yeah, she would have had to have been planning this ahead of time to bring the gun.

1:00:50 So yeah, she wouldn't have brought two books. And you don't wake up one morning and say, I mean some people do, but you know, she that just wasn't her personality. She hadn't had a history of mental illness or depression. So I don't think that she woke up that morning and was like, I'm gonna kill everyone. No, you know that I grew up not far from this area. It was like an hour away, and so it was really surprising to me that he wanted to drive three hours to go to a water park. Yeah, like that's nuts. And I looked up the water park. It looks like a fine water park, but not one that you would drive three hours too. Okay, So I grew up like near the Rockford area and there. I don't think you ever went there, but uh, it's called it was called Magic Waters, it's something else now, and it's a really nice park, and it was an hour away. And they're in the Chicago metro area, like there's a lot of other water parks. So just the fact that he wanted to drive three hours and fifteen minutes when they had to be back by four or five for Abby's soccer practice.

1:01:46 Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Sense. It's a really good point too, because, yeah, if he was planning to do this, you wanted to get them into a desolate location, so that would be the only reason that he might pick a water park that far away. He said that he was to McDonald's and you heard two people talking about this water park in Springfield, and he was asking him about it. That's how he heard about the water park. But as early as a week before the murders, he had searched the water park. When he was being questioned by police, he said, I don't know what time it opens, but he went to their website. Right, Yeah, don't doesn't add up. When police pointed out that the water park didn't open until ten am, he said, oh, we were going to get there, and we were going to go to breakfast, and then we were just going to drive around until the park opened. Okay, And remember he's still wearing the clothes that he had on the day before, his jeans and his beloved cowboy boots. Why do you think he didn't change his clothes.

1:02:40 I don't. I guess I don't really know why he didn't. It's odd. It doesn't make any sense why he was wearing this warm clothing on a ninety degree day. Well, oh, he was shooting the day before at. The shooting, Yeah, and so he wanted to be able to say, oh, I had a gunshot residue because I yeah. That makes that makes sense. You're one step out of me as usual. If I've researched this case for two weeks. So yeah, well, please come back for part two. If you had to shoot yourself, where would you shoot yourself? You mean where geographically? Or where will my body? That's what you're asking.

1:03:20 Well, you can answer both, but I met where on your body? Okay? So you're saying, if I wanted to shoot myself and make it look like somebody else had shot me, but I didn't want to injure myself fatally. Yes, I mean somewhere probably eighty. Part of your thigh is a really good place. Yeah, although I know there's a risk of a major artery down there somewhere, and I don't really know exactly where it is. Oh, I would be afraid to do that. I'd probably I'd probably google it first, but yeah, I would think sort of like, yeah, one of the fleshy parts of your leg or your arm would be probably the most likely. Yeah, I agree. So so far you are like Chris's Yeah, if you don't see a way that Kim was the. Murderer, not really. I mean I suppose that there's a little possibility, but so far, to me, everything fits in with Chris being the murderer.

1:04:05 If you were going to escape your life, I don't know for what reason, because you have such a wonderful, loving wife, and where would what would you want to do? Where would you go? I mean, this is really hard for me because I have not thought about it at all until now. But I would go. No, I don't know, I have no idea where I would go, but I would if I was going, if I really wanted to escape my life, I would come up with a new identity for myself. I would plan very far in advance. I would put money aside in a bank account somewhere. I would have a new identity made like really well done. You know, passport and ID card and things like that. Make you put no, I haven't, but I'm just saying that's what I would do. I would not Where would you go, though, I don't know. It's a good question. Probably somewhere out west, like you know, Wyoming, or somewhere out in the middle of nowhere where.

1:04:56 There's going to get some cowboy boots. Maybe I would get some maybe get a few cattle or something like that. I don't know, but that's probably I'd probably just work as a short order cook and a diner. I don't know. It's just like, again, I haven't thought this through, but that's just my initial reaction. How about you, where would you What would you do if you were trying to start a new life. You know, I'm not really sure. I think this is gonna sound really bad, but I think you would understand. I think most people understand. Sometimes I do think, gosh, it would be really nice to live by myself. I mean, I loved being a wife, and mom. But it's just a it's a twenty four seven, three hundred and sixty five day a year job, and sometimes it's just like I'm just tired of worrying about everyone else. And it's gotten easier because our kids are It's understandable.

1:05:50 But I didn't ask you if you wanted to, I would. I asked you where. I would have just rent a studio apartment, like an hour away. It's an hour away. Just to just to have some time for myself. Yeah, that sounds pretty good. I would probably start driving a motorcycle too. Just you would not you were you? Really would you kind of if you're gonna like start a new life, you gotta kind of change things up. You got to become like a new person. So that would be you know, that's how I picture myself. I'd be working as a short order cooking a diner, ride my motorcycle to work every day. Like a season of Dexter opens. Isn't that like the the Dexter you know, the New Genesis.

1:06:32 Of That's where I got this from. Wow, gosh, what other secret do you have? I mean, I would probably sounds. I mean, I like I would say I would like go to Hawaii or something and just let us live out of a backpack. But you and I both know that I would miss my shoes. Picture you doing that. Yeah, Before we go, we want to thank everyone for supporting us. For the month of January, we made a donation to the World Central Kitchen, which is a charity that started by a chef named jose Andre. It's been around for about fifteen years. They do amazing work in the United States and around the world. During the California wildfires, they really just jumped into help and they provided a lot of meals to victims and the firefighters. And then during the plane crash recently in DC, they jumped right in there and they provided a lot of meals and support.

1:07:26 I just think it's a great organization and we couldn't do it without you and your support, especially from our Patreon members. Thank you so much. Yes, we truly appreciate all of you. And if you would like to join us on Patreon, go to patreon dot com slash love Mary Kill. We have one tier five dollars a month. You get early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. So you can listen to part two of this episode right now. If you'd like, and later we are going to record our Patreon episode for the month. Is it a good one? I think it's a good one. And you guys, if you could give us a review, a five star review, that is the best way to support the podcast, and I think we haven't had many lately, so please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at lovemarykilat gmail dot com. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.