Kristin Rossum and Greg de Villers - Part 1

0:00 On November 6, 2000, when 26-year-old Greg DeVillers failed to show up for work in San Diego, California, his co-workers grew more concerned with each passing hour. Greg was dependable, hardworking, and had a promising future ahead of him. It was unlike him to miss work without letting anyone know. In recent weeks, his marriage to Kristen Rossum, a toxicologist at the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, seemed to be crumbling. When Greg died unexpectedly later that evening, his family struggled to understand what had happened. As troubling details about his marriage emerged, they began to question the circumstances surrounding his death.

0:40 I'm Rich. And I'm Tina. Welcome to Love, Marry, Kill. 🎵 Hey, Rich. Hey, Tina. Long time no podcast. It has been a while. Are we out of practice? I feel like I am. Yes. I feel like I am a little bit. I feel like that almost every time we sit down in the studio. I know. Four years and you think we'd be like very professional. I know. We are not. Not yet. What do you think of this California weather we've been having? It has been unseasonably warm for sure.

1:21 But you are in your fall uniform, fall-winter uniform, and you're not turning back. Well, it's still. Chilly in the morning. When I get up in the morning, it's been in the 40s pretty much every day, so it's a really hard time to figure out how to dress. Pretty much every day in October has been 65 to 75, which is pretty crazy. It's crazy. It's been very nice. Noise. It's people that are still mowing our lawn. I think they're going to be here till December. Oh, that is very possible. As far as I can tell in the weather, we don't have any hard freezes. Wow. Crazy. That is bananas. And it's November. Tomorrow is voting day in the United States.

2:01 So get out there and vote. I voted in September. Same. We voted at the same time. But November is one of my favorite months. Do you know why? Because it's my birthday. Yes, because it's your birthday. Not till the very end of the month, though, the last day. Very last day of the month. What do you want for your birthday? I don't. I don't really want anything. Done. Perfect. And dusted. Easy. I think you know what you're getting. We are going to go to the Lions game on Thanksgiving. When is Thanksgiving? I don't know. Sometime around the end of the month. Okay. Well, that. That narrows it down. Yeah, it narrows it down. It's on a Thursday. I know that. Well, it's the third Thursday in November, right? Fourth.

2:42 Fourth Thursday. Yeah. November 26th. That's Thanksgiving? Okay. That is when Thanksgiving is, yeah. I'll put it on my calendar. Good to know. It's probably already on your calendar. It's kind of crazy that they're playing the Bears again. We went two years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was a surprise, but this time I'm like, no, I'll just let you pick the tickets and it won't be a surprise. It'll be fun. But who do you think is going to win? Well, the Lions, of course. Yeah. I think they have the same record right now. Maybe. Like every team in our division so far, our division is good this year. So it should be a battle. I mean, the Bears are a good team. Lions are a good team. Yeah. It'll be fun. I think my Super Bowl bet is probably, that was probably not a very good investment.

3:27 Oh, I think we, I think you've got a chance. All right, before we get to the case, sorry, I just bumped the microphone. Before we get to the case, I did make you a snack. Do you know what it is? You probably could smell something. No, I really don't. I made you some sliced oranges. Okay. And this is one of my favorites. I haven't made it in a while, but it's popcorn with Oreos and white chocolate. Nice. And some marshmallows. That looks really good. Do you want to give it a try? I would love to. Did you like my popcorn? It was very good, but I feel sort of like you made this as a response to my Halloween snack that I made for you, which was popcorn with marshmallow and candy corn in it. And you were a little disappointed in the candy corn thing.

4:15 I didn't think about it until after. I had been kind of wanting to make this for a while just because I really like it. It is really good. And when I started making it, I was like, oh, yeah, you just made the candy corn popcorn balls, which I had to throw away because neither. Of them ate them. I know. I felt like you were making a statement, but it sounds like just a coincidence. No, no. The next episode, part two, I will be making a statement. Oh, okay. Yeah. I don't know. I feel a little bad about it, but you'll have to tune in and see what your next snack is going to be. But this, honestly, is just because I think it's a really delicious snack. It is really good. It's really easy to make. And the recipe is linked in show notes. But I add marshmallows to it. The white chocolate is what binds it together.

4:59 But I like the marshmallows in there. So when it cools off, I stir in like half a bag of marshmallows. I think that's a good addition. Because I'm a health nut. I do want to give a shout out to Amish Country Popcorn. That's the popcorn that we've been eating for the last few years. I think it's such a good product. It pops up super well and the holes are, they're not super hard. This variety is purple, which I don't know if we've had before. I think normally we get rainbow, but they sell it at our local grocery store, but they have a mail order service and I think it would be a great Christmas gift. Yeah, it is really good popcorn. This case was recommended by our listener, Janie, quite a while ago. If you have recommended a case quite a while ago, feel free to remind us. Send us an email. Again, we do have a long list of cases, but we're always happy to get your recommendations.

5:49 Before we dive in, I need to give a content warning. Today's episode contains discussions of drug use, eating disorders, self-harm, and suicide. Please listen with care. Greg DeVillers and Kristen Rossum had only been married 17 months, newlyweds practically. They lived in San Diego, California, where she worked as a toxicologist for the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, and he as a licensing manager for Origen, a small biotech startup. When Greg didn't show up for work on Monday, November 6, 2000, his friend and boss, Stefan Grunwald, grew more concerned with each passing minute. Stefan and Greg had worked together at their previous job. When Stefan decided to start his own business, he recruited Greg to come work for him. Greg was dependable and never late without an explanation. With only eight employees, his absence couldn't be ignored. At 10 a.m., Stefan called Greg's home, but no one answered. At 11.15, he tried again, still no answer. He knew that Greg hadn't been feeling well that week. He'd been nauseous and uncharacteristically short-tempered. Stefan and the other employees went about their day, trying not to worry. They were sure Greg would call them when he was able. But by the end of the day, they still hadn't heard from him and again called his home number. He lived in an apartment just 10 minutes away on the campus of San Diego State University. The office manager called one last time before leaving for the day at 7 p.m. Greg's wife, Kristen, answered and said

7:21 that Greg wasn't feeling well and he'd been sleeping all day. She said that she'd left a message that morning on Greg's voicemail. She assumed that someone would receive it. At 9.30pm, Stefan was still thinking about Greg and called again to check on him. This time, Kristen was crying when she answered. She said Greg was gravely ill and that she'd just called an ambulance. Greg was unresponsive and had no pulse. When paramedics arrived, they found Kristen sitting on the couch, even though the 911 operator had instructed her to continue performing CPR until help arrived. Greg was lying on his back on the bedroom floor, dressed in pajama bottoms and a t-shirt. His skin was pale, but still warm to the touch. His lips were blue and his pupils were fixed and dilated. Scattered around his body on the floor were red rose petals. Paramedics immediately began working to revive him.

8:14 They intubated Greg and used a bag to help him breathe. They even administered Narcan in case it was an overdose. Greg was just 26 years old, and they couldn't understand why an otherwise healthy young man would suddenly be in such critical condition. But despite their efforts, Greg never regained consciousness. He was pronounced dead minutes after arriving at the hospital. I'm a little intrigued by the detail of the rose petals around his body. Are we going to talk about that at some point? Oh, we will talk about that quite a bit. Okay, interesting. A lot of people refer to this case as the American beauty murder. Oh, okay. Probably can guess why. Kristen McGreith was born on October 25th, 1976 in Memphis, Tennessee to Constance and Ralph Rossum. Ralph had grown up on a farm and was the first in his family to attend college. He worked summer jobs to help pay for his education and graduated summa cum laude from Concordia College in Minnesota on scholarship before earning his master's degree and PhD from the University of Chicago. He met his wife Constance two years his junior while she was studying journalism at Indiana University. After they married, they moved to Grinnell, Iowa, where he landed his first teaching job at Grinnell College in political science. When Constance was pregnant with Kristen, they moved to Memphis, Tennessee, where Ralph took an assistant professorship at Memphis State University. Kristen was the oldest of three children.

9:42 Her younger brothers, Brent and Pierce, were four and seven years younger. When Kristen was four, she began taking ballet lessons and worked as a child model, appearing in catalogs for department stores like Marshall Fields and Sears. About a year later, the family moved to Wilmette, an affluent suburb. north of Chicago, where Ralph became associate professor of Loyola University's Department of Political Science. Kristen by then was a talented dancer, and ballet soon consumed much of her free time. In 1983, the Rossums moved to Bethesda, Maryland, after Ralph accepted a position as Deputy Director of the Bureau of Justice Statistics at the U.S. Department of Justice during the Reagan administration. Later in his career, he worked on juvenile justice reform, while Constance worked in market research for the Marriott hotel chain. That year, Kristen joined the Maryland Youth Ballet and earned a role in the production of Romeo and Juliet with the Joffrey Ballet, one of North America's most prestigious ballet companies. In 1985, the family moved again, this time to Claremont, California, where Ralph accepted a position as a constitutional scholar at Claremont McKenna College.

10:55 Ralph has done very well for himself for being the first one in his family to go to college. It seems like he has really excelled. Yeah, I mentioned all of his accomplishments because it just underscores how important education is to this family. Mm-hmm. So Kristen was, they moved so much, so kind of the equivalent of like an army brat, but like a college brat because, you know, they moved so much and they had to start over so many times. Claremont, California is an affluent college town in Los Angeles County, about 35 miles east of downtown Los Angeles, nestled in the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains, known as the City of Trees and PhDs. Claremont is home to the prestigious Claremont Colleges, a consortium of seven independent institutions, including five undergraduate colleges, that share academic resources and facilities. With its tree-lined streets, beautiful historic homes, and charming downtown, Claremont has an upscale small-town atmosphere, despite being part of the sprawling Los Angeles metropolitan area. It is the kind of community where education, achievement, and social standing were highly valued. In his book, Deadly American Beauty, John Glatt said, Claremont exists in a vacuum, sheltering itself from the outside world to protect its rarefied, cloistered existence. For some families, maintaining a respectable image also meant keeping personal problems private, particularly those that might invite gossip or embarrassment.

12:25 Over the course of his career, Ralph taught at several colleges and universities and was an exceptionally prolific writer. publishing seven books and dozens of articles. He greatly admired Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, whom he considered both a friend and a mentor. The two even taught a class together in France. Scalia was a frequent dinner guest at the Rossum home. Constance also had a successful career and placed a high value on education. She earned a Ph.D. in education and management and established her own consulting business, conducting market research for major companies like Procter & Gamble and McDonald's, where she worked on the campaign that launched the Chicken McNugget.

13:08 She launched the Chicken McNugget. That's impressive. She also served as a visiting professor at several universities and co-authored multiple books. Both Ralph and Constance were highly educated, ambitious people who had worked hard to build successful careers. They were also staunch political conservatives and devout Episcopalians, who held traditional views about morality and personal responsibility. Education, achievement, and religion were all important in the Rossum household. The pressure to succeed was considerable, but it wasn't just about accomplishments. The Rossums also cared deeply about appearances, from the cut of their lawn to how their children dressed and behaved.

13:51 They wanted their family to be seen as successful, respectable, and above reproach. Kristen's parents put considerable pressure on her, especially as the oldest, to do her best and succeed. She wrote in her diary, It was always obvious to me that I was expected to do well in school. I wanted to make my parents proud of me. I wanted to be the best in everything I did. I wanted to be perfect. For the most part, I excelled at everything I tried. But there was one area that Kristen struggled with, writing, quote, Kristen continued to pursue ballet during her free time. Although she was a talented dancer, she felt she couldn't compete with the taller ballerinas, who had long legs and perfectly arched feet. Once she entered Claremont High School, Kristen was outgoing, perky, intelligent, witty, and popular.

14:55 She earned straight A's, but between her schoolwork and long ballet classes and rehearsals, she had little time left for friends or dating. Later, Ralph would remember this time fondly. He felt like he really got to know his daughter when he drove her to and from ballet. Her freshman year, she won the coveted role of the Sugar Plum Fairy in The Nutcracker. In 1991, Ralph became president of Hampton-Sydney College, a private liberal arts school in Virginia. Kristen decided to accompany him east, enrolling at a boarding school and dancing with a troupe in Richmond, while Constance and the boys remained in California. When Ralph moved east, did he and Constance separate, or were they just having a long-distance marriage at that point?

15:41 I'm glad you asked. I read two books for this case, and they hadn't different versions of events. And this was one of them where Constance moved in one version and the boys, and in another, it was just Ralph and Kristen. So I'm not really sure what happened exactly, but they did not separate. They were still married. Okay. But after suffering a series of injuries, Kristen decided to give up ballet. Dance had been such an important part of her life, and without it, she became depressed. She missed the challenge and sense of accomplishment it had given her. Kristen and Ralph returned to California. He resumed teaching at Claremont McKenna College while Kristen began her junior year at Claremont High School. The school year got off to a promising start. Kristen still missed dancing and decided to join the school's a cappella singing group, but this would prove to be a pivotal year in her life.

16:37 She began taking greater risks, including drinking alcohol and experimenting with methamphetamines. Her first experience with the drug came at a high school football game when a friend offered her some crystal meth. Methamphetamine is a powerful stimulant that can produce a high lasting up to 24 hours. It can be snorted, smoked, swallowed, or injected, with smoking and injection generally producing a faster, more intense rush. Meth suppresses appetite. can keep users awake for extended periods, and may increase sexual desire. Long-term use can lead to anxiety, paranoia, hallucinations, and sometimes violent behavior. In severe cases, users can develop psychosis that persists long after they stop using the drug.

17:25 Kristen had always strived for perfection, especially when it came to her appearance. She was pretty and petite, but when she looked in the mirror, she focused on what she perceived as flaws. At just 5 feet 2 inches tall, she thought she was too short, and despite her toned physique, she believed parts of her body were flabby. She was constantly trying to lose a few pounds from her already small frame. Methamphetamine suppressed her appetite, making it easier to lose weight, while also offering a temporary escape from the constant pressure she felt to be perfect. I know it's probably naive on my part, but I don't think of methamphetamine as a drug that high schoolers would typically turn to, like at football games and things like that.

18:09 Right, and it's pretty scary. Yeah, for sure. Kristen began using drugs regularly as a way to escape her overactive, hypercritical mind. She felt that the only time she could truly relax was when she was high. Kristen withdrew from her family and friends. Her once straight A's fell to B's. She began hanging out with a rougher crowd that Ralph and Constance didn't approve of. When her younger brothers discovered a drug pipe and a mirror among her belongings and brought them to their parents, they didn't realize they were looking at drug paraphernalia. Initially, Kristen used drugs exclusively in social settings, but eventually she progressed to a daily habit at home. When her parents took a trip to celebrate their 21st anniversary to the Caribbean, they left Kristen in charge of the house. She spent the money they had given her for food on drugs and threw a party that quickly got out of hand.

19:04 When Ralph and Constance returned home, they discovered that credit cards, checks, and their video camera were missing. They filed a police report and gave investigators the names of several of Kristen's friends whom they considered bad influences. And then there was a mysterious package with white powder in their mailbox. Slowly, they came to the devastating realization that their perfect daughter was using drugs and stealing from them. When Ralph and Constance confronted Kristen, the argument turned violent. Ralph punched her several times in the arms, hard enough to leave bruises. Constance slapped her across the face and called her a worthless slut. Distraught, Kristen ran into the kitchen, grabbed a knife, and began cutting her wrists. She then locked herself in the bathroom, where she continued harming herself with a razor blade.

19:56 I'm worthless. You're better off without me, she yelled through the door. Eventually, the confrontation diffused itself, but the family's relationship was never quite the same. Ralph and Constance later dismissed the incident as a melodramatic suicide attempt and never took Kristen to the hospital. Calling her suicide attempt a melodramatic attempt really bothered me. I don't think there's such a thing as a melodramatic suicide attempt. Like if someone is doing that, it's either they want to take their life or it's a cry for help. And she probably should have been taken to the hospital at that point. Yeah, I agree. We'll be back after a break.

20:41 After Kristen showed friends the bruising on her arm and told them that she was thinking about taking her life, they went to the school guidance counselor. The counselor reported the incident to the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services and the Claremont Police Department. When officers interviewed Kristen at school, she downplayed what had happened, describing it as an isolated incident and saying that her parents had never physically struck her before. Ralph and Constance later acknowledged that they felt Kristen was out of control and didn't know how to handle her anymore. For a short time, things seemed to improve, but beneath the surface, Kristen continued to struggle. Her grades were falling, she was losing weight, and she had developed sores on her face and body from methamphetamine use, which she frequently picked at. That's one of the characteristics of being a meth addict is the sores on your face and body.

21:35 Yeah. On January 14, 1994, Kristen came home visibly high. Constance searched her and discovered a drug pipe. In her backpack, she found laxatives, a small mirror, and razor blades. Unsure what to do, Constance called the police, and Kristen was arrested for being under the influence of drugs and possessing drug paraphernalia. Ralph and Constance considered staging an intervention and sending Kristen to the Betty Ford Center for Treatment. A representative even visited their home. But they decided against sending Kristen away. Instead of seeking professional help for Kristen's drug use, the Rossums convinced themselves that her friends were the real problem.

22:16 They believed that she needed a fresh start. At 17, Kristen had earned enough credits to graduate from high school a semester early. That winter, she enrolled at the University of Redlands, about 30 miles from Claremont, where Ralph was teaching that semester. Ralph drove Kristen to and from classes and kept a close eye on her. After school, the two attended 12-step meetings that focused on family dynamics. Instead of attending meetings in Claremont, they went to Chino, the next city over. It seemed the Rossums were reluctant to have people in their own affluent community learn about Kristen's struggles. Their plan appeared to work. Kristen's health improved and she began reconnecting with old friends, whom her parents approved of.

23:01 I should mention that Kristen is super smart. I think she got straight A's without even really studying or trying that hard. School just came really natural to her. Even when she was under the influence of drugs, she was still a pretty high-performing student. Ralph and Constance believed Kristen was doing well enough to live in the dorms at Redlands the fall of 1994. She enrolled in a full course load and seemed to be thriving. That summer, she'd begun dating Teddy Maya, a fellow college student who attended UCLA. On weekends, Teddy would drive Kristen home to Claremont. By all appearances, Kristen was doing well, and the Rossums were relieved to have their beautiful, motivated daughter back. The meth had just been a blip. Things were back to normal.

23:46 You'll have to pardon me if I'm a little dubious about that. This isn't your first episode of Love Me or Kill, is it? On December 17, 1994, Constance drove to Redlands to pick up Kristen for Christmas break. but her daughter was nowhere to be found. She hadn't left a note or any message of where she'd gone. While Constance was in Kristen's room, the phone rang. She answered and asked who was calling. When the caller identified themselves, Constance recognized the name as someone who had sold Kristen drugs in high school. Furious, she told the caller to leave her daughter alone and hung up. With no idea where Kristen was, Ralph and Constance filed a missing persons report. Over the next several days, they received numerous phone calls in which the caller hung up without speaking. The Rossums suspected it was Kristen, perhaps wanting to reach out, but unable to bring herself to talk to them. Finally, on Christmas Eve, an anonymous caller told them that Kristen was alive and well.

24:44 That's just so scary. Yeah, definitely. She's only 18 years old, and they have no idea where she's at. She kept it to herself, but Kristen had struggled throughout her first semester. She returned to smoking methamphetamine daily and her grades had plummeted. With a GPA of just 1.67, she'd been placed on academic probation. The week before break, she'd been caught with drugs in her room and had been expelled from school and wasn't allowed to take her final exams. Scared of her parents' reaction, she ran away. Kristen had no intention of spending Christmas with her family and facing their disappointment and lectures. She stayed with friends until the day after Christmas when she called Teddy and asked him to meet her on campus.

25:28 When he arrived, he found Kristen very sick, running a fever of 104 degrees and deeply depressed. He took her to a motel for the night. Later, he said, she must have been coming down from a long binge. She was obviously really messed up. She told me that she hadn't slept for I don't know how long. When Teddy woke up the following morning, Kristen was gone. so were the cash and credit cards from his wallet. The Rossums contacted the police, but because Kristen was now 18 years old, there was little the authorities could do. Kristen had headed to Tijuana, Mexico, where a chance encounter with a young man named Greg DeVillers would change the course of both their lives. Gregory Bernard Paul Von Tremolet DeVillers was born on November 12, 1973, in Park Ridge, Illinois. He was the oldest of three sons born to Yves and Marie-France Chemerle de Villers, both of French descent. Yves claims he delivered Greg on the living room couch. His younger brothers, Jerome and Bertrand, were born in 1975 and 1979. All three boys grew up speaking French fluently. Yves studied medicine in France before moving to the United States with Marie, a physical therapist, to pursue greater professional opportunities. The family initially settled in Chicago, where Eve continued his surgical training and worked in medicine. He eventually specialized in plastic surgery, establishing practices in Monaco and Thousand Oaks, California. He was

27:01 frequently traveling between the two places. Princess Grace of Monaco was allegedly a patient of Eve, and he reportedly once repaired Walt Disney's broken nose. Walt gave him a Mickey Mouse watch as a thank-you gift. That's pretty crazy, having practices in Monaco and California. You couldn't be much further apart. Yeah. I have a feeling some of the stories that Eve tells might be tall tales, because the Walt Disney one, I'm not sure if that really pans out. They were stories from the book that I read. Despite Eve's professional accomplishments, the family's finances and home life were often unstable. Eve and Marie filed for divorce in 1981. but their bitter dispute over custody and finances dragged on for four years.

27:48 Both made allegations of domestic violence and restraining orders were issued. Marie initially sought $ 1, 500 a month in child support and $ 4, 000 a month in alimony, but Eve claimed to be more than $ 200, 000 in debt from his medical practices. The family home eventually went into foreclosure. When the divorce was finalized, Eve was ordered to pay $ 500 a month in alimony. and $ 900 a month in child support. Despite their parents' troubles, Greg and his brothers remembered a mostly happy childhood, having no other family in the U.S. made them depend on each other. They were close and made their own fun, building forts, riding dirt bikes, swimming, and playing sports. As the oldest, in his father's absence, Greg took on a protective role. He looked after Jerome and Bertrand and got a job at a drugstore to help his mother financially.

28:41 Jerome joined him there the following year. The brothers were responsible kids who stayed out of trouble. Greg and Jerome even paid for their own braces. Because Eve had the practice in Monaco and the one in California, he was very busy. And I think there were long stretches of time when he didn't come back to California or he didn't see the children and he wasn't providing for them financially. So Greg especially had a lot of resentment towards his father. Yeah. And he really was this great kid who made sure his brothers had everything they needed. And, you know, he taught them how to do things that their father should have taught them. You know, he was just a really good guy. Marie had been a heavy smoker and struggled with respiratory problems throughout her life and often was unable to work. When able, she worked as a physical therapist and later opened a massage therapy practice. Marie made sure that her sons understood the importance of sticking together. Every night at dinner, she reminded them, We are a team.

29:39 Everybody has a role to play. If you want to win the game, everybody has to keep his position and to play the game. But don't forget, I am the captain. Greg attended Palm Springs High School. He was friendly, positive, and outgoing. He made friends easily. Although he didn't earn the best grades, he was intelligent and curious. He loved tinkering with things, taking them apart to figure out how they worked before putting them back together. After graduating from high school, Greg enrolled at College of the Desert, a community college, while he figured out his course of study. During the summer of 1992, Greg traveled to Monaco to stay with his father. He secured an internship at the International Atomic Energy Agency's Marine Environment Laboratory, where he used his computer skills to analyze data related to radioactivity and pollution in the Mediterranean Sea. In the fall of 1993, Greg enrolled at the University of California, San Diego, but balancing school with the demands of working to pay for his education proved difficult. His grades suffered and his average fell to a D. Eve had promised to help pay for his education, but never followed through, further straining their already troubled relationship. By the fall of 1994, Greg had withdrawn from UC San Diego and was working full-time at a law office, serving as a process server and notary, and taking on various other responsibilities. Although Greg hadn't always been particularly focused on his own schooling, he was adamant

31:10 that his younger brothers take their education seriously. He encouraged Jerome and Bertrand to work hard and stay in school, often taking on more of a parental role in their lives than their father had. Kristen, 18, was alone when she met 21-year-old Greg DeVillers at the San Ysidro border crossing between San Diego and Tijuana shortly after Christmas 1994. Greg was with his younger brothers, Jerome and Bertrand. They had very different reasons for heading to Mexico. Kristen was looking for drugs while Greg was hoping to get his youngest brother drunk for the first time. Kristen was charmed by Greg, especially when he spoke French to her. They spent the night partying together, and afterward, Greg invited her to stay at his apartment in La Jolla.

31:58 He was kind and made her feel safe, so she accepted. Kristen thought it was a one-night stand, but Greg was smitten. He didn't have much dating experience, but he was nurturing and thoughtful. He told Kristen she could stay with him for as long as she needed. Within a week, Greg told Kristen he loved her and promised to help her stop using drugs. So this is the time right after she has run away from college and her parents don't know where she is. And she had just, you know, been in the hotel with her boyfriend and stolen his money. So now she has moved on to Greg. Greg encouraged Kristen to reconnect with her parents. In January, she contacted Ralph and Constance, apologizing for ruining their Christmas and promising that she was trying to turn her life around.

32:44 Kristen borrowed Greg's car to visit her family in Claremont. They were relieved to see that she looked healthier. She told them she was working three jobs, teaching ballet, waitressing at California Pizza Kitchen, and Monterey Pasta Company. But Kristen still hadn't ended her relationship with Teddy. Rather than telling him she had met someone new, she concocted an elaborate story, claiming that she'd been abducted at gunpoint, thrown into the trunk of a car, and driven around Mexico. None of it was true. Her relationship with Teddy ended and Kristen continued dating Greg. She was fired from her job at California Pizza Kitchen after overcharging customers and pocketing the difference.

33:27 Which she lied about and she said, oh, I'm just really bad at math, but we know that Kristen is very smart and she is not bad at math. The Rossums came to San Diego to meet Greg and immediately liked him. Although Kristen lied to her parents that she was living with a waitress from one of her jobs, she was living with Greg. Premarital sex was against their beliefs. The Rossums had a good feeling that Greg would help Kristen stay away from drugs. Greg's brother Jerome and their roommate, Chris Wren, weren't nearly as enthusiastic about Kristen moving in. She wasn't contributing to the rent, and they found her standoffish and difficult to get along with. Then things started disappearing from their apartment, including some jewelry belonging to Greg's family and personal checks belonging to Jerome. But Greg was already head over heels in love with Kristen. He seemed willing to overlook her questionable behavior and forgive her for just about anything. With encouragement and financial support from Ralph and Constance Rossum, Kristen and Greg decided to return to college to finish their degrees. Constance filled out Kristen's application to San Diego State University, deliberately leaving out her academic record from the University of Redlands. where she had earned a 1.67 GPA, which violated the university's application requirements. Although the Rossums disapproved of the couple living together, they were happy to see Kristen staying away from drugs and in what appeared to be a healthy relationship. They were willing

35:00 to overlook their objections and even help the couple move into campus housing, bought them furniture, and Kristen a used car. Thinking her drug problems were behind her, they even gave her money for living expenses. Both Kristen and Greg took their studies seriously and earned good grades. Kristen was selected by the San Diego State University Chemistry Department as the Outstanding Junior in 1996. Greg wanted to marry Kristen and had even asked Ralph and Constance for their blessing, but they told him he needed to finish his education first. On October 25, 1996, after nearly two years of dating, Greg proposed on Kristen's 20th birthday. She happily accepted. Ralph and Constance were hoping for a long engagement. Kristen called Greg her angel for helping her get off drugs. Quote, We got along wonderfully from the time we met. He was basically my best friend. I really needed the steady support he was able to offer me. While still attending college, Kristen began working as an intern in the toxicology lab at the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office.

36:10 What could go wrong? She wasn't asked about her history of drug addiction, and she wasn't about to volunteer that information. For someone recovering from drug addiction, the Medical Examiner's Office was not an ideal place to work. They stored illegal drugs seized by law enforcement, prescription medications and drug paraphernalia collected from death scenes, along with drug samples used for laboratory testing. I guess I'm surprised the medical examiner's office didn't do like a more thorough background check. Maybe they did drug testing and she was clean, but. They did not. Oh, really? Yeah, that's very surprising. But this is, you know, 20 years ago. Yeah.

36:50 Among her responsibilities was to keep a log of the drug locker. Despite her limited experience, Kristen quickly distinguished herself as an exceptionally talented employee... Her supervisor, Frank Barnhart, later said that in his 29-year career, he had worked with some incredibly talented people, but Kristen was the best. Quote, she stood out in terms of her ability to understand what you needed. Barnhart became a close friend and mentor to Kristen, affectionately nicknaming her Little Bandit because she worked so quickly and efficiently. Kristen graduated with a degree in biochemistry, earning summa cum laude honors and membership in Phi Beta Kappa.

37:31 but those impressive credentials came with a caveat. When Kristen had applied to San Diego State University, Constance wrote her application and deliberately omitted Kristen's poor academic record at the University of Redlands. Had those grades been included, Kristen would not have qualified for either distinction. She signed the application certifying that the information was accurate and complete despite the omission. After his graduation, the Rossums took Greg under their wing. offering career advice and helping him make professional connections. They even bought him his first suit for job interviews. Greg left the law firm he had worked at through college.

38:12 His dream job was to work for the Department of Fish and Game. Ralph set him up with a contact, but Greg failed the entrance exam. He was crushed, but he began working for B.D. Pharmagen in 1997, a biotechnology company, where he was hired as an executive assistant to Stefan Grunewald. Stefan was impressed by Greg's work ethic and initiative, and Greg eventually advanced to licensing manager, overseeing agreements involving the medical research products the company developed and sold. The relationship he developed with Stefan was an important one in his life. Stefan believed in Greg in a way no one had, and thought he had a bright future. Later, when he started his own company, Stefan recruited Greg to come work for him, one of only eight employees. Some of Kristen's friends grew concerned and even annoyed by how protective Greg was of her. His constant attention could feel suffocating, leaving Kristen with little independence. She loved spending time with her friends, but Greg always seemed to want to be by her side.

39:17 Her childhood friend, Melissa Prager, had serious doubts about the relationship. When Kristen asked Melissa to be her maid of honor, she declined because she didn't believe Kristen was truly in love with Greg. Kristen was beautiful, naturally flirtatious, and enjoyed the attention she received from men. She tended to be attracted to men who were more rugged, athletic, and outgoing than Greg, who was slender, quiet, and somewhat reserved. Greg also struggled with his health, frequently complaining of headaches, fatigue, and generally feeling unwell. Kristen, on the other hand, was physically active and enjoyed swing dancing, yoga, and ballet. Despite often feeling exhausted, Greg made an effort to share her interests, joining her for dance lessons and yoga classes, or simply watching her practice ballet.

40:07 I think I might have exaggerated Greg's health there. I mean, he was a healthy guy. He was... And he was outgoing, but. He just wasn't... Not the same as Kristen. Yeah, he just didn't have that extra charisma that she was attracted to. Gotcha. Greg had been a steady, supportive presence in Kristen's life. He was patient, kind, and encouraging, particularly during some of her most difficult years. Kristen appreciated everything he had done for her, but she wasn't entirely convinced that she wanted to marry him. According to John Glatt's book, Deadly American Beauty... Kristen began having an affair with a co-worker in the months leading up to the wedding. She also confided in her mother that she felt obligated to marry Greg because he had done so much for her. She loved him, but perhaps not in the way she believed a wife should love her husband. Despite these reservations, Kristen decided to go ahead with the wedding. Ironically, it was Greg who nearly called it off. Hoping to bring about a reconciliation, the Rossums had invited his estranged father, Eve, Without realizing how strongly Greg would object, Eve had already flown to California from Monaco, but when he learned that Greg didn't want him there, he decided not to attend. Now, when you say Greg nearly called off the wedding, was that, that was just because of his dad and the situation there?

41:28 Yes, he was really angry at the Rossums for having intervened in that situation. He really was angry with his dad and he did not want him there. He wasn't ready for any sort of reconciliation. We'll be back after a break. Kristen and Greg were married on June 5th, 1999 at the Padua Hills Theater in Claremont, a beautiful outdoor venue. It was a lovely day with the couple surrounded by the love and support of approximately 100 friends and family members. Even Greg's mother, Marie, who had disapproved of all three of her son's previous romantic partners, loved Kristen like a daughter.

42:11 As beautiful as the bride looked, There was something missing. She had no bridesmaids standing by her side and only a handful of friends in attendance. Greg toasted his bride. Kristen is the most wonderful person I've ever met. She's incredible in so many ways, in everything she does. She's a perfectionist. She's so intelligent. She's so kind and caring and sharing. I just can't wait to spend the rest of my life with her. After returning from their honeymoon in Whistler, British Columbia, Kristen told Constance that she was thinking about throwing away her birth control. In March 2000, Kristen landed her dream job as a toxicologist with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office. She'd interned in the lab, but now she was hired as a professional toxicologist. Later, she said, I fell in love with the job. It was something I really loved because it was something I was really close to. Close, probably too close. Kristen tested blood, urine, and tissue samples for drugs, alcohol, poisons, and other chemicals to help determine causes of suspicious or unexplained deaths. Her starting salary was $ 32, 000 a year, equivalent to about $ 62, 000 today. Meanwhile, Greg was considering attending law school and becoming a patent attorney, a career that would allow him to combine his scientific background with an interest in law. Greg was affable, easygoing, and soft-spoken. more of a follower than a leader. He was health-conscious and rarely drank alcohol and never took drugs.

43:43 Although he was well-liked by his co-workers, he wasn't particularly social outside of the office. He generally preferred to head straight home to Kristen after work rather than socialize with his colleagues. Just two weeks after Kristen and Greg's wedding, she received an email from Joe Rizzo, a former co-worker at the medical examiner's office. Joe had worked there as an accounting clerk while attending law school before heading to the East Coast. Despite the distance, he and Kristen had remained close. On June 18, 1999, Joe wrote, By March 2000, their correspondence had become increasingly flirtatious. Kristen wrote, Oh my God, I've been thinking of you so much lately. So when are you going to be visiting? Miss you terribly. Joe invited Kristen to spend a weekend with him in New York, writing, I am going to be all alone and I thought of immediately of you. Kristen said that explaining such a trip to Greg might be difficult, adding, But hey, a girl can dream, can't she? I don't want to just imagine anymore, Joe replied. Kristen suggested that they give the idea some serious consideration. Joe made his intentions clear. Those old feelings are back, he said.

45:06 So when Kristen and Joe had worked together before he moved away, had they dated or been romantically involved at that point or not? She was with Greg then too, right? So I think they had an affair. And Joe wasn't the only man exchanging intimate messages with Kristen. Dan DeWall, whom she'd met at a plant physiology class at San Diego State, was also sending her emails at work, and one he suggested meeting at a park. In another, he expressed his feelings for her and hinted at a previous intimate encounter, writing, I like you a lot, etc., etc., etc. I promise that the next time you tell me that you are tired, I will slow the pace and hold you a while so you can rest. In September 1999, the movie American Beauty was released. Kristen loved it and it immediately became one of her all-time favorite movies, but we'll put a pin in that for now. In March 2000, the same month Kristen began working as a toxicologist at the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, a handsome, rugged, 30-year-old Australian named Michael Robertson was hired to manage the toxicology lab.

46:14 Originally from Melbourne, Michael was married and preferred to go by Mick or Robbo, but we are going to call him Michael because, well, you'll see. Michael had a PhD and extensive experience in forensic toxicology. He had published numerous scholarly articles, presented his research at international conferences, and frequently testified as an expert witness. His areas of expertise included drugs used in sexual assaults, benzodiazepines, and how drug concentrations can change in the body after death. He had also researched how fluid from the eye could be used to detect drugs and other substances in deceased individuals. Kristen was immediately attracted to her new boss. She later wrote in her diary that when she first met Michael, quote, my legs got weak and my tummy was full of butterflies.

47:05 Michael was friendly, outgoing, and full of Australian charm, casually referring to his co-workers as mate. A friend of his said, Michael Robertson is a player of women's emotions. He has been since a young age. I think he is driven by the need for everyone to like him and will compromise everything and everyone to achieve this. So Michael is the kind of guy that can't just have a wife and one girlfriend. He had multiple girlfriends at all times. I see. Michael's arrival soon created tension in the lab. He openly favored Kristen, spending considerably more time with her than with his other employees. The two quickly became friends and their conversations grew increasingly personal. Both complained that their spouses didn't understand them or fulfill their emotional needs. They also discovered a shared appreciation for art, literature, music, and romance. Michael had previously worked in Pennsylvania, where he'd left behind a lover who frequently called him at the San Diego lab.

48:07 But it wasn't long before his attention shifted solely to Kristen, and the two began declaring their love for each other. While Michael was away attending his sister's wedding, he emailed Kristen, thinking of you and missing you already. By the following week, they were openly exchanging declarations of love. Their relationship was becoming increasingly obvious to their co-workers, who were uncomfortable with the favoritism and displays of affection. Michael began leaving a single red rose on Kristen's desk each morning. Roses became their private language of love, with different colors representing different feelings. They arranged travel time together to professional conferences. Greg hated when Kristen left town and begged her not to go.

48:51 Kristen and Michael's email histories revealed that during the workday, they exchanged messages nearly on the hour, saying, I love you or thinking of you. Neither seemed particularly concerned about what their co-workers thought. On May 16th, Michael wrote, I want nothing more than to give my all to you, my life, my love, my world. Kristen responded, I'll be thinking of you and all that the future has to offer. I can't wait for it to begin. I can understand. all of these emotional emails and the declarations of love. Reminds me of today when I was at the grocery store and you texted me and said, we need all of them. I'm always sending you romantic things like that, aren't I?

49:33 You really are. Kristen even told Michael that she would move to Australia for him. In an email to her brother, Brent, Kristen admitted that she regretted marrying Greg and wished that she'd listen to her gut instead of allowing her parents to convince her that she was experiencing the same cold feet that everyone feels. She wrote, Mom and Dad encouraged me to go through with it and they had invested so much time and money into the wedding by then. I guess I felt that I didn't really have a choice. Well, here I am a year later and looking back, I wish I hadn't gone through with it. Kristen said that she didn't want to disappoint her parents by getting divorced. Brent wrote back, No one wants that to happen, but if you are not happy, which is all that matters in this case, then it is justified. Kristen replied, Now I'm stuck with a heavy realization that I married the wrong person. By the time she and Greg celebrated their first anniversary, Kristen had begun looking at apartments. She also told her parents that she was having doubts about her marriage, and they expressed their support for whatever she needed to do. Meanwhile, back at the lab, Kristen and Michael's long lunches together hadn't gone unnoticed, especially one day when they both returned to work with wet hair. Michael's boss scheduled a meeting with him and explained that several employees had complained about his inappropriate relationship with Kristen. They didn't stop seeing each other, but they did become more secretive. After work, they'd meet up at a park, and during work hours, they'd set up treasure hunts, exchanging clues by email.

51:04 And Michael was her supervisor, right? Yeah, it's so inappropriate. On June 26th, Kristen emailed Greg to tell him that Michael had an extra ticket to a Natalie Merchant concert the following evening. She explained that Michael's wife could no longer attend, so he'd offered the ticket to his co-workers through a raffle. As luck would have it, Kristen had won. She told Greg that she'd like to go, but wanted to make sure that he was comfortable with it first. Let me know what you think so that he can give the ticket to a runner-up. If you don't want me to go, okay, she wrote. Of course, there had been no raffle. Kind of like that Coldplay concert. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, of course. But Greg actually told her, I don't want you to go, and she didn't. The following month, Greg discovered a love letter from Michael to Kristen. Typically unflappable, he was furious.

51:53 He demanded that Kristen give him Michael's home phone number. When Greg called him later that evening, Michael and his wife, Nicole, were already in bed. Michael answered and Greg was yelling so loudly that Nicole could hear him. Michael turned pale and quickly took the call into the other room. Stay the hell away from my wife, Greg warned him. Michael admitted to Nicole that he was attracted to a woman at work but insisted that nothing physical had happened between them. He claimed the relationship was purely emotional, the same explanation that Kristen had given Greg. Their emails, however, revealed just how deeply involved they had become. Michael envisioned a future with Kristen, not his wife. He wrote, You are my love, my perfect match, the one I see beside me at the altar, at home, holding my children, waking beside me in the morning, and kissing goodnight. Although Kristen was in love with Michael, she still loved Greg and didn't want to hurt him. But when Greg began talking about buying a house together and having a baby, she became wary.

52:53 On September 21st, Kristen traveled to Tijuana to see a doctor who prescribed two medications. The first was Somacid, a muscle relaxant with the potential for dependence and abuse. The second was Asenlix, also known as Clobenzorix, a weight loss medication that acts as a stimulant and is metabolized into amphetamine in the body. Because of its potential for abuse, clobenzorix is not recommended for people with a history of drug or alcohol addiction. Kristen later acknowledged that taking the diet pills had triggered a relapse. In addiction recovery, relapse is often a gradual process rather than a single event.

53:35 Changes in thinking, behavior, and decision-making can build upon one another, eventually leading someone back to substance abuse. She also began researching how to make her own methamphetamine, visiting websites such as Making Crystal Meth Easy. I'm very naive about drugs. I didn't realize that you can walk into a pharmacy in Mexico and just ask for almost anything. I don't know if that's the case in 2026. This is the year 2000, so it's It might be different now, but you can get a lot of drugs just, you know, over the counter, not over the counter. There might be like a doctor in the back that can write a prescription. And when someone wrote a prescription for Kristen for these weight loss drugs, she was already underweight. And in the prescription, like they put, you know, reason and it said obesity. Wow.

54:26 In October, Kristen and Michael went to a conference together in Wisconsin, tacking an extra three days onto the trip using personal time. Kristen and Michael shared a hotel room but altered their receipts to make it appear that they had stayed in separate rooms. Both then submitted the receipts for reimbursement. In the days before the trip, Nicole and Michael decided to separate while working on their relationship and going to counseling together. Later that month, Kristen gave her first professional presentation at the conference, Death by Strychnine, a Case for Postmortem Redistribution. It was her first professional talk, and she was extremely nervous. Some colleagues thought that it was unlikely that she had written the paper. It seemed to be above her experience level. In fact, after her talk, an expert in the field and Michael's former boss, Frederick Readers, brought Kristen to tears when he questioned her about the study.

55:21 After returning from her trip, Greg confronted Kristen about the medications she was taking. On October 9th, Kristen sent Greg an angry email explaining that she had prescriptions for three drugs, diazepam, or Valium, for muscle cramps, Zolpidem, a sleeping medication she had taken for the flight home, and Seroquel, which she said she was taking for severe anxiety caused by the recent turmoil in their relationship. She accused Greg of hurting her deeply and said his reactions made her afraid to open up to him, leaving her feeling isolated and unhappy. But that weekend, they went to the wedding of one of Greg's close friends in Palm Springs. They posed together for pictures and seemed very happy. So she was taking these three drugs in addition to the drugs that she got in Mexico as well, right?

56:10 I guess so. Wow, that's a lot. for someone who has a history of addiction. Right. So you don't believe that she is not abusing any of these prescriptions, right? Right. On Kristen's 24th birthday on October 25th, Greg bought her a dozen long-stemmed red roses. By the end of October, Kristen seemed to be paying more attention to her husband, and their emails suggested a warmer, more affectionate relationship. On Halloween, she offered to prepare Greg a special dinner of teriyaki pork tenderloin or filet mignon with herbed red potatoes. In a playful email, she wrote, Boo! Did I scare you? I hope you've had a spooky Halloween so far. The following day, Greg made a reservation to celebrate their birthdays with Constance and Ralph. On November 2nd, Kristen thanked Greg for getting up early to have breakfast with her and suggested they meet for lunch. They settled on Mimo's, an Italian deli in Little Italy. After leaving for lunch, Greg called his office manager to say he needed the rest of the afternoon off to deal with a family issue.

57:14 Their lunch had turned into an argument that lasted all afternoon after Kristen told Greg she was moving out and needed some time to herself. Despite Greg's distress over the possibility of separating, the couple seemed to have a relatively normal weekend. On Friday evening, Constance and Ralph drove to San Diego to have dinner with them. Before heading out, the four shared a toast with gin martinis. On Saturday night, Kristen and Greg stayed home and drank more martinis together. According to Kristen, Greg became so drunk that he vomited several times, which was very unlike him. It's kind of interesting that their relationship seemed like it was getting better. I bet that happens a lot when one partner... Has made the decision and they've come to the conclusion that they're going to leave and then they're sort of at peace and things seem better for a short time before they kind of drop the bomb on their partner.

58:06 Right. But it could also be because they've made a decision to do something else to get out of the marriage. So they want to make it look like we're a happy couple. One thing I did want to mention about Kristen, though, she. Was in love with Michael, but she still wanted Greg's attention. Like, she really did love having the attention of a man. And she wanted her husband still to be in love with her, too. Okay. We'll be back after a break. On Sunday, Greg was tired and hungover, so Kristen went to the lab to do some work. While there, she updated her resume. She called Greg and then went to a head shop to buy a new drug pipe. Michael came into the office after Kristen left. He didn't come to work. He thought that Kristen had been acting strangely recently, and he rifled through her desk looking for answers. He found a small baggie of white powder that he believed was meth. He tested it to be sure. It was, and then he angrily flushed it down the toilet. Since the downside of being a drug addict at a lab is.

59:15 Pretty easy to test, yeah. Right? Michael helped another employee set up for a meeting the next day before he left. At 5 p.m., he spoke to his wife, Nicole, for about half an hour, and then later for 12 minutes at 8.20 p.m. At about 3 p.m. that afternoon, Bertrand, Greg's brother, had called, and they made plans to go snowboarding together and scheduled a family dinner. That was the last time anyone had talked to Greg. And Bertrand said that Greg sounded very sleepy and that he wasn't feeling well. Later that night, Greg had trouble sleeping, and he took some of Kristen's old medications, including oxycodone and clonazepam. Oxycodone is a powerful opioid painkiller, while clonazepam is a benzodiazepine used to treat seizures and panic disorders. Both medications can cause drowsiness, and combining them can be dangerous and suppress breathing. By Monday morning, November 5th, Greg still wasn't feeling well enough to go to work.

1:00:16 At 7.42, Kristen called his office and left a message saying that he would be out sick that day, but no one received the message. Investigators later discovered that Kristen had actually called Greg's own voicemail and left a message there. Whether this was an honest mistake or a deliberate attempt to mislead his co-workers wasn't clear. She said, Yes, hi, this is Kristen, Greg's wife calling. He's not feeling well at all today, so he's most likely going to be taking the whole day off. He's sleeping right now, but I just wanted to let you know. Hopefully someone else will get this message and it won't be a problem. Okay, thank you. Bye. That's so weird that she called his voicemail. Yeah. Does she not know how voicemail works?

1:01:01 Yeah, that is odd. That morning, Kristen made several calls to her drug dealer, Armando Garcia in Tijuana, before heading to work. It was the first time that she'd ever used her home phone to call him. When she arrived at the lab, her co-workers noticed that she seemed agitated. She went into Michael's office, closed the door, and appeared to be crying. At lunchtime, Kristen went home to check on Greg and made him some soup before returning to work. Once again, she went straight into Michael's office. At 2.30pm, Kristen and Michael left work together. Their time together after that is largely unaccounted for that afternoon. At about 9pm that night, after taking a long hot bath, Kristen crawled into bed beside Greg.

1:01:43 She leaned over to kiss him as he slept and noticed that his forehead was cold. She checked for upholes but couldn't find one. She immediately called 911. It was 9.22 p.m. The dispatcher instructed Kristen to move Greg to the floor and begin CPR. Kristen was petite and initially said that she didn't think she could move her 160-pound husband out of bed by herself, but somehow she managed. However, investigators later noted that there was no audible thud on the recording, as they might have expected when someone Greg's size hit the floor. As the dispatcher walked Kristen through CPR, she sobbed throughout the call. Investigators noted that they couldn't hear the heavy breathing they might have expected from someone performing chest compressions. She was holding a cordless phone, and it would be almost impossible to do CPR properly while holding a phone.

1:02:36 Yeah, that would be. Paramedics arrived about five minutes later and began treating Greg, including starting an IV. Suspecting a possible drug overdose, they examined his body for needle marks, but found no obvious punctures beyond the two that they'd made themselves. Greg was wearing a t-shirt and boxer shorts. Scattered around his body were approximately 30 red rose petals, roughly the number of petals on a single rose. On the floor beside the bed was a wedding photograph of Kristen and Greg. When the paramedics turned Greg over to get him onto a gurney for transport to the hospital, they noticed lividity in his hips and backside. Had he been lying there longer than his wife had indicated, they wondered?

1:03:17 Remind me, how long does lividity typically take to set in? Does everyone remember what lividity is? Just the settling of blood once someone dies? It usually begins within 20 minutes and up to two hours after death. Okay, so not that long. Kristen sat alone in her pajamas at the hospital waiting for news. She called Michael Robertson and asked him to come stay with her. She also called her parents, sobbing throughout the conversation. Ralph assured her that he'd be there as soon as possible. but it was a two-and-a-half-hour drive from Claremont. When Michael arrived, he hugged Kristen and held her hand as they waited for news. A nurse asked Kristen what medications Greg might have taken. She explained that they had some old medications in their medicine cabinet that she'd purchased in Mexico years earlier when she was struggling with an addiction to crystal meth. So her story is that Greg couldn't sleep because he was upset that they were fighting. And Greg, who never took a pill, was like, oh, let me take this old medication that's in the medicine cabinet.

1:04:19 Minutes after arriving at Scripps Memorial Hospital in La Jolla, Greg was pronounced dead at 10.19 p.m. Michael comforted Kristen as she received the devastating news. When a nurse asked if she wanted to see her husband, Kristen said yes. Before she went in, Michael embraced her and gave her a kiss on the lips, which surprised the nurse. Yeah, that would be very surprising. And the nurse also said, boy, I thought she would have been more upset than she was. Because Greg's heart had stopped, his major organs couldn't be donated, but his skin, other tissues, retinas, and heart valves could still be used. Just weeks before his death, Kristen had encouraged him to register as an organ donor. His tissues were recovered before the autopsy, which could potentially complicate the medical examiner's examination.

1:05:07 I mentioned this a long time ago, but some of the research that Michael had done was on eyes and how eyes can be examined after someone's death to determine if drugs were taken. Oh, interesting. And so Greg's eyes were donated. Hmm. I would think that if a death was deemed to be suspicious, that they would not allow organ donations, but maybe they didn't think the death was suspicious at this point. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. After Kristen signed the necessary paperwork, Michael drove her home. Police were still at the apartment and questioned her again. Although she was so distraught that she struggled to answer their questions, she did say that she'd recently discussed a trial separation with Greg. He'd been very upset and told her, I can't live without you.

1:05:53 She mentioned that when she found Greg in bed that he was covered in rose petals and their wedding picture was under his pillow. Oh, so she's trying to say it was a suicide? Yeah. Ralph arrived a few minutes later. Once police had finished questioning Kristen shortly before 2 a.m., her father took her back to the family home in Claremont. Investigators were wrapping up their work at the apartment, believing that Greg's death was likely a suicide. Meanwhile, Kristen's mother, Constance, had called Greg's mother, Marie, and told her that Greg was in the emergency room after suffering a bad reaction to cough syrup and other over-the-counter medications. Greg's family would be devastated by his death. On November 7th, Dr. Brian Blackburn, a forensic pathologist with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office, performed Greg's autopsy.

1:06:41 Greg was six feet tall and weighed a lean 160 pounds. He appeared to have been a healthy 26-year-old man. Blackburn found a large bruise on Greg's right arm with a needle mark in the center. An artery had been punctured twice. There was another puncture wound on his right arm from an intravenous line and two needle marks near his left elbow. Greg's stomach contained approximately three and a third ounces of bloody fluid, later determined to contain cough syrup. His lungs were severely congested, weighing roughly three times what would be expected. His bladder contained 550 milliliters of urine, indicating that it was quite full. Blackburn believed these findings suggested that Greg had been in a coma for several hours before his death. Initially, Greg's death was classified as accidental, with the suspected cause being a drug overdose, although toxicology results were still pending.

1:07:39 Blackburn later acknowledged that he had performed what he called a quick autopsy. He hadn't been able to conduct a complete examination because numerous tissues, bones, and other body parts had already been removed for donation. When the Rossum and DeVillers families met to discuss funeral arrangements, Kristen insisted that Greg be cremated as soon as possible. I know you're shocked by that. That is a common theme we hear in these stories. After Greg's death, Kristen was extremely emotional and appeared fragile. She once again had scabs on her face, and whenever anyone questioned her or pushed back against her wishes, she broke down in tears. Her parents were fiercely protective of her.

1:08:22 In the days that followed, communication between the two families deteriorated. Greg's brothers, friends, and father were determined to get answers about his death. They were adamant that it was not a suicide. Marie, however, was frustrated with her two sons and ex-husband, who were beginning to suspect Kristen. She was incredulous that her daughter-in-law could have been involved in Greg's death. Although authorities initially believed Greg had taken his own life, his unexpected death still warranted an investigation. Detectives with the San Diego County Sheriff's Office examined the couple's bedroom, where they found two cups. one yellow and one blue, both containing a clear, odorless liquid that appeared to be water.

1:09:06 A half-full bottle of aspirin sat on a chest of drawers, and an empty bottle of cough syrup was found in the bathroom. There was a plastic syringe cap on the floor beside the bed, but no syringe or vial of medication. There were no rose petals in the bed, only on the floor. Nothing significant was found in the trash. There were no signs of forced entry or a struggle, and no suicide note was found. I want to mention here really quickly that the cough syrup, I'm not sure why there was cough syrup out. Greg wasn't sick. He had been hungover. He'd been having some stomach problems. Sometimes people do take cough syrup just to try to sleep, like NyQuil. Sometimes I think people do. Yeah. really interesting to me that they didn't find any rose petals on the bed that completely, like when she moved his body to the floor, there would have definitely been rose petals still on the bed if that's what had happened. On the dining room table, investigators found a plastic Ziploc bag containing a shredded letter. Kristen explained that Greg had discovered the letter on Thursday and became angry about its contents.

1:10:13 She had put it through the shredder, but Greg had been trying to piece it back together with tape. In part, it read, To a beautiful girl, when I think of the future I smile and think of the future and you, and we'll come together, and it makes me so excited. The letter was collected as evidence along with a handwritten note from Kristen that another officer found in the kitchen. Hi Sleepy, hope you feel better, I'm out to get a wedding gift, there are leftovers in the fridge. It was signed with a heart and the letter K. Investigators found a newspaper with apartment listings and a list of mental health providers. Kristen's diary was laying on the coffee table, but it wasn't collected as evidence. An officer who had flipped through it summarized its contents in his report. Rossum felt her marriage was a mistake. She had gotten married too young. She's self-conscious about her looks and wants to separate from Greg.

1:11:07 Kind of weird that they didn't take that as evidence. Very surprising. The apartment seemed unusually clean. If Greg had taken an overdose of medication, where were the pill bottles? One of the people investigating the apartment was Angie Wagner, a colleague of Kristen's. Kristen told her, I've lost my Greggy. I've lost my best friend. On Tuesday morning, November 7, 2000, Election Day, when Americans were voting in the closely contested presidential race between George W. Bush and Al Gore, Greg's boss, Stefan Grunewald, received a shocking phone call from Michael Robertson. Greg was dead. Michael told Stefan to call Kristen at her parents' house. When Stefan reached her, she was sobbing, but he was confused by her explanation. Initially, she said Greg had died from an allergic reaction to medication. Later, she said he'd overdosed. People who knew Greg well found the circumstances surrounding his death hard to believe. Greg didn't like taking cold medicine or even an aspirin. His brother Jerome, who worked as an insurance investigator, was determined to find out what had happened. He didn't trust Kristen. At 8.24 that morning, Kristen's mother Constance called Orbigen to report Greg's death. Interestingly, she dialed the same number Kristen had called the previous morning to report that Greg was sick, and she too reached his voicemail. Constance left a message for Chris Grunewald, the son of Greg's colleague Stefan Grunewald. explaining that Greg

1:12:40 had died the night before after suffering a reaction to medication he was taking. She added that Kristen was staying with her family in Claremont and left her phone number, asking Chris to return her call. That was a little confusing to me. Michael called Greg's workplace to tell them that Greg had died. And so did Constance. And so did Constance. Did she leave a message or she actually talked to Chris? I think she left a message online. on the voicemail, just like Kristen had done the day before. Maybe now that Greg had passed away, they were listening to his voicemails at that point. Yeah, possibly. There was considerable discussion about Greg's death at the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office that morning and how to proceed with their work investigating his death. During a meeting to review the cases requiring examination, Michael Robertson suggested that Greg's death was a suicide and that an autopsy wouldn't be necessary. His colleagues disagreed, arguing that Greg's young age made an autopsy essential. It was decided that certain toxicology tests would be performed by an outside laboratory, including a blood alcohol test and screenings for clonazepam and aspirin, to corroborate Kristen's account. Greg's stomach contents would also be analyzed independently.

1:13:57 An audit of the drugs kept at the medical examiner's office would be conducted later. Once the initial shock of Greg's death began to wear off, the gossip started. Kristen and Michael's affair hadn't exactly been a secret among their co-workers, and some began wondering whether there might have been foul play involved in Greg's death. Can you imagine being in that situation at the medical examiner's office? It's really wild. And Michael recommending, oh, we don't really need to do an autopsy. I can't even I can't even imagine him saying that, but all of his colleagues must have been like, like you said, there was no secret that there was an affair going on there. So not good.

1:14:41 I think that's where we're going to stop for today. But I do have some questions for you. What do you think of Kristen's story? Are you buying any part of it? Well, we are the hosts of a podcast called Love, Marry, Kill. Right, but not every couple. That's true. We have done a few cases where that does not turn out to be the case. But no, I am not buying any of it. And the whole prescription thing, like she had a problem with substance abuse and, oh, we just had these prescriptions. Well, I guess her story changed, but one version of her story was that Greg had taken the medications away from her and he had them in his possession. Okay, well, that at least makes a little sense.

1:15:22 A little more sense. We talked about that earlier. That was very strange to me that, okay, I still have these drugs that I used to be addicted to, but I'm not anymore. I'm intrigued by Kristen's upbringing and the effect that it had on her because her parents worked so hard and they were so educated and it was really important to them. Do you think that they put too much pressure on Kristen? I think possibly, yeah. I think the combination of having that pressure to succeed, but also having this pressure to make it seem like everything is perfect and there's no problems and the appearances that they wanted to keep up. I think the combination of those things can be really bad.

1:16:03 And I'm sure that had an effect on Kristen. Being a parent is the hardest job in the world. Something that I had a hard time with when our kids were younger is when a kid shows aptitude for something and they're bright, you want to keep feeding them and give them more books to read and challenge them and make their education as important as they can. And I just wonder if you know, how much pressure is too much pressure to put on your kids? Yeah, because I think in a lot of ways that can have the reverse effect, right? That all of a sudden, you know, they have a love for doing something or learning something, and all of a sudden it becomes a chore, it becomes work for them, right? And so it is, it's really tricky. You have to develop the whole child, not just, you know, their education.

1:16:46 Yeah, good point. We don't know exactly what Kristen's diary said, but the officer who paged through it said that she wrote Rossum felt her marriage was a mistake, she'd gotten married too young, she's self-conscious, etc. Did she leave it out on purpose, but the police defined it? Maybe so. I mean, if her plan was to make this look like suicide and to make it look like it was a suicide because of the fact that she had told him she was leaving or was unhappy, then yeah, potentially the diary could support that, I suppose. Do you think that Greg was drawn to Kristen because he had taken care of his brothers growing up and he was just used to that role as a caretaker and he thought, I can help her kick drugs?

1:17:30 That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that. But yeah, it does kind of make sense. I think that some people, you know, they either they just have that innately or they grow up and become that kind of person that, you know, takes care of other people and that maybe they seek that out in a mate as well. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that Kristen's parents recognized how much that she was struggling? She was an accomplished student and dancer, but she struggled with body image depression and eventually drug use. Yeah, I wonder if they were in denial a little bit, if they didn't want to believe that she was struggling as much as she was or they didn't want the appearance. And so they, you know, may have tried to shrug it off and say, oh, it's just a it was just a blip or something like that.

1:18:12 I want to make sure that we talk about drug or substance abuse very carefully, not blaming anyone for Kristen's problems, her or her parents. Yeah, a lot of really good parents have kids that get addicted to drugs. And, you know, it's something that. I think that the Rossums might not have really understood how substance abuse disorder works. And they thought, well, Kristen's such a smart kid. She's going to figure this out. You know, she's just a teenager and they didn't really seek. I feel like part of it was that they didn't want people to know that they were having this problem, but also they might not have known how serious the situation was. Was. Yeah. I think you mentioned at one point that her siblings found some paraphernalia and brought it to the parents and they didn't know what it was.

1:18:59 Yeah, it was like a mirror and a pipe maybe. Yeah, to me that almost. I don't know if I would know. But you would know enough to be suspicious. You would know enough to be asking questions about it. And that makes me think either they were kind of naive or they were in denial about the whole thing. Yeah. What do you make of Kristen's decision to pursue a career in toxicology given her history of drug addiction? She was intelligent and academically capable, but she chose a profession that put her in close contact with the various substances that she struggled with. Yeah, it seems like a really bad idea. And as we talked about earlier, it seems like really surprising that the medical examiner's office wouldn't do drug testing and do a background check on people coming to work for them.

1:19:43 But yeah, that career path, not going to go well for somebody with that history. Something that I'm really conflicted about is if Kristen saw her problem with drugs as a problem, because she was a high-functioning person, and I think she really enjoyed doing the drugs, and, you know, she never said, oh, I need to go to rehab. You know, she, I don't know how long she was ever clean. I think that she used drugs quite often, even when people thought she was clean. Well, and it sounded like it might have varied a little bit, like, Like using meth may have been one thing, but then she may have just been on more prescription drugs other times. So maybe she was able to function when she wasn't kind of going too deep into like the meth and things like that. Yeah.

1:20:27 She denied ever using at work. But there was this room where they would go in for testing and, you know, it's a laboratory, it's scientific, and they have a lot of equipment that would diffuse fumes and things. And she would go in there and I think she would use in that room and no one would be able to tell. Yeah. because they had the equipment that would evaporate the odors. My last question for you is, what do you know about ballerinas? A fair amount, I would say. We had a ballerina growing up for many years. Yeah, and it took up a lot of her time. And I wonder if giving up ballet, how that affected Kristen. Because we knew a lot of ballerinas, and they were all very similar, all very driven, all great students. despite how many hours they spent at the dance studio. And I just think that when she gave up dance, it just really changed who she was.

1:21:22 Yeah. I guess I was thinking kind of the other way around that, you know, being in ballet and being serious about ballet, there's a ton of pressure on you to be perfect all the time. A lot like, you know, the pressure in school and things like that. So I was thinking, well, that's just sort of like a, um, you know, a personality trait that she had this drive to be perfect. But you're right. I mean, I could see that she maybe channeled that passion into something like ballet. And then when the ballet ended, she needed somewhere else to channel her energy. And maybe that's... Yeah. Yeah. I think about this a lot because of our daughter, because she's a perfectionist. And I mean, I'm a perfectionist, you're a perfectionist. And I I just, I hate perfectionism.

1:22:06 I feel like it just is a really toxic trait. Yeah, it's not a good thing. No, it's not a good thing. But I always wonder if, you know, are perfectionists drawn to ballet or, you know. Or the other way around. Yeah. Well, if you'd like to listen to part two right now, join us on Patreon, patreon.com slash lovemerrykill. For just $ 5 a month, you get early ad-free access plus a monthly bonus episode. So this weekend was time changed. So sending thoughts and prayers to everyone out there that's really struggling. Especially those people with small children. Yeah, that was the worst. But it's dark so much earlier.

1:22:48 Here in Michigan, in the summertime, in the peak of summer, it stays light out to almost 10 o'clock. And to put your pajamas on before, like, you know, 10 o'clock is just unheard of. It feels weird. But it gets dark so much earlier. And, you know, it's like 615. I'm like, well, you know, I guess I can put my pajamas on. I'm ready for bed. I'm going to put my cozy clothing on. But speaking of beds, we need new bedding. We've had the same denim comforter for a really long time. And I've loved it so much because, you know, you can change your sheets. It goes with any color and it's really soft and comfy.

1:23:28 I've loved it too. There's holes in it. It's getting a little worn. Yeah, it needs to be replaced. And I have decision paralysis. I cannot make a decision. This has been going on for months and months where I cannot make a decision. Well, you told me to pick out some bedding, and I did, and you rejected my choices. So that's where I was going. I finally settled on, I was like, you know what? I like this. I think I might order it, which was a huge deal. I haven't even looked at it yet. No, you did. Oh, I did. And that's when, so I said, do you like this? And you were like, eh. And I said, well, how would you rate it from 8 out of 10? And you said 8. And because I'm a perfectionist, I guess I was looking for a 10.

1:24:10 I don't think I said eh. If I rated it an 8, I must have liked it. I know, but I feel like I wanted you to love it as much as I did. And I didn't really love it either. So then I said, why don't you look for something? Right. And I found some great things. And I did like it. It was just for the winter months, I wanted something heavier. I will explain what you sent to me because I was literally floored. It was a sage green gingham comforter. Uh-huh. And the sheets were white with strawberries on them. And it was very cute. It looked really cute together. I was just shocked that you would choose. Were you expecting me to send bedding with like rocket ships or.

1:24:52 Superheroes on them? I was expecting Detroit Lions bedding or Detroit Tigers. I like that. I've surprised you. Or pizza. Like a bed that looks like a pizza. But yeah, you chose pink and green. I like pink. Floral colors and things like that. Well, it was strawberries and gingham. It wasn't really floral. Well, strawberries can be considered. Yeah, that's what you said because I was like leaning towards getting all salad bedding again. And you said, oh, I think we need some patterns. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Very strong opinions about this. Do you have any bedding ideas for us? Wait, so did you order something or not? No, I'm still in decision paralysis. I thought you were going to say you ordered the one that you originally wanted, which I would be fine with. I gave it an 8 out of 10. I think that's pretty darn good. Yeah, I don't know. I'm probably not going to give anything a 10 out of 10.

1:25:37 No, really nothing. Well, as we talked about, we are both perfectionists. And so we're always going to find flaws in something. There's always going to be like, well, yeah, but that's, you know, not quite right. I think age has taught me, though, good enough is good enough sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. Eight out of ten is good enough for me. Now I don't even remember what it was. I think it was from Pottery Barn. I don't know. It's a tough decision. I know. It really is. And you torment yourself over these decisions, I know. One more thing before we go. A lot of people have asked if we saw Primetime yet. And we did. Yeah. And this was weeks ago. I don't think it's no longer at theaters. But good news, it releases on video on November 3rd. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1:26:22 Yeah. It was a very strange movie, and I would love someone else who has seen it to tell me what they thought of it. I didn't know what to make out of it. I didn't either. And I did fall asleep for, I'm not sure, five minutes? Because I did get a little bored. It was very strange because, well, it's about Chris Hansen, right? The guy who started the show. What was the show? To Catch a Predator? Yes. Is that what it was called? But it was strange. So it was about a real person and a real story. Chris Hansen was pretty ticked off about it. It just felt like they kind of made it overly dramatic or overly... I don't know, just kind of over the top sort of thing. And it was just weird.

1:27:04 It didn't come together for me at all. Yeah, I didn't. I was interested to learn more about the story. Like, I think it's probably a really interesting topic, but I came away not feeling like I really. Knew the story. It didn't feel like it was about Chris Hansen at all. No, no, it was very odd. Yeah, I would be interested to hear what other people think. I can't remember his name, but the one, the guy who played the young man. Yeah. I thought he was excellent in that. Yeah, he was really good. I can't remember the actor's name either, but he was in The Righteous Gemstones, and he's been in a few other things. I think he's an up-and-coming actor. We also saw You Can See Everything, and no spoilers, but it was really good. Yeah, that was really, really well done.

1:27:45 I'm surprised how well-received it's been, considering we have watched... I haven't watched all of Nathan Fielder's stuff, but... He's kind of an odd guy, but people really seem to love the movie. I think it's going to win Best Picture at the Oscars. It'll definitely be nominated, and it would be a little surprising, but I think it will win. And I would not be at all surprised if Nathan Fielder shows up with Elizabeth Holmes as his date. Or Amanda Seyfried. Seyfried. Seyfried. Well, we love you. Thank you for listening. Until next time. Don't kill your wife. And don't kill your husband.

1:28:27 Thank you. Thank you.