Dec. 9, 2024

Lynette Joy Simms and Chris Dawson - Part 1

Lynette Joy Simms and Chris Dawson - Part 1
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In January 1982, Lynette Dawson, a loving wife and mother, vanished from the suburbs of Sydney, Australia. Her husband, Chris Dawson, a former professional rugby player and local celebrity, insisted that she left voluntarily. Lyn’s family and friends initially believed his story but as the years passed with no contact from Lyn, their suspicions of foul play grew. It wasn’t until decades later that a true crime podcast called The Teacher’s Pet reignited public interest in the case. Cries grew louder for a thorough investigation to finally be done which ultimately lead to justice for Lyn and her family.

Listen to both parts today on Patreon

Today's snack: Anzac biscuits

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. And if there's one

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thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's

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that some.

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Days you'll feel like killing your wife and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary kill.

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Good day, mate. How you go in?

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I'm going okay? How are you going?

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You're supposed to say like, yeah, dinkham very Dingkham. Well,

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I don't know if you're really supposed to say that

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we are going to Australia today.

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How how did I get I knew that. I just

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had a funny feeling. I don't know why.

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Well, there are a lot of clues around the house.

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We've had a lot of conversations about it. About eighty

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percent of our listeners I believe come from the US, right,

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And what is our number two country Australia. Australia. I

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love you Australia, we do. I don't know what's going

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on in Canada, our neighbors to the north, but Australia

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is our number two.

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Canada's number three, right, I think I think so?

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And then Great Britain is not far and Denmark is

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right up there too, So anyway, we love you all.

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But Australia, this one's for you. This is probably the

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most requested case we've gotten from our Australian listeners, and

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it's a heartbreaker, is it Okay? Did you know that

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Australia and the United States are almost the same size?

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I did not know that.

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I know, I am really bad at geography. Of a

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bunch of people that are probably listening to like, oh yeah,

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of course I knew that, but I am not a

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geography person. Australia is approximately seven point seven million square

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kilometers or almost three million square miles, and the contiguous

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United States is approximately eight point one million square kilometers

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or three point one two million square miles, so pretty similar.

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Yeah.

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To put it in perspective, traveling from Sydney to Perth,

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East coast to west coast is about the same as

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traveling from New York to Los Angeles.

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It's crazy. And there's like nothing in the middle of

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the country either.

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Right, I think there's a lot of the middle of

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the country.

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I've heard there's not much. I mean, yeah, but not

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a whole lot of people.

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Or I think most people live along the coastline. Yeah, yeah,

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beautiful country. I kind of jumped right ahead there. How

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are you.

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I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

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For a while since we've recorded, we're probably a little rusty.

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I know that we're ever not rusty, but I know.

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But we might be rustier than usual. I'm doing good.

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I was in New York all weeks. I'm a little

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it got back late late last night, you did, so,

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I'm a little tired, But I'm feeling.

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Did a little true criming when you were in.

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There was There was a true crime that happened while

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I was in New York just a few miles from

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my hotel. The CEO of United Healthcare got gunned down

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right on the street, which was crazy. It was probably

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like it wasn't right near my hotel, but it was

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not that.

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Far so you said three miles, which in New York,

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you might as well, you know, have been in Colorado, right.

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Yeah, exactly. But I was on the lookout for the guy,

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but didn't. I never saw him. I saw a guy

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that I thought looked like him.

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You did send me the airport, Yes, I'm sure, I

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mean it could have been him. I did hear today

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that he likely left New York.

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Yes, I'm sure he probably did.

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I'm just really surprised how this story has taken over

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the meat. Yeah.

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Yeah, it's a huge story.

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And when most people are asked to name iconic Australian

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and New Zealand snacks, they head straight for the Tim

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TAM's vegetpile, guilty Pavlova. I didn't know that was Australian,

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but I would love to make up pavlova sometimes, well

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you'll find out maybe someday, or meat pie with tomato sauce.

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But the food most proudly boasted is one that you

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may not have heard of before. The an zach biscuit

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or Vicki's and Australian and New Zealand an zack biscuits

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are perhaps the most beloved, perfect for storing and decorative

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tins or dunking into a hot cup of tea.

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I've never heard of those.

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A lot of our Australian listeners who request it. You

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have requested cases, say you have to make this. If

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you do it a case from Australia. So you happily

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made them for you. While made with simple ingredients, anzac

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biscuits are a symbol of national pride and great cultural significance.

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Each bite embodies more than one hundred years of history

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and connects many Australians and New Zealanders to their childhood

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and the past. There are many variations of the anzac biscuit.

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They all share the deep golden color and distinct caramelized

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flavor of Flyells golden syrup, a viscous, sticky, amber colored

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syrup that holds the Guinness Book World Record for having

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the oldest branding and packaging in.

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The world Wow Okay.

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The word Anzac is an acronym for Australian and New

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Zealand army corps formed during World War One. Basic army

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rations included rice, tin, corn, beef, and an unpalatable hard

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tack biscuit so difficul could to eat. They were described

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as one of the most durable materials used in war,

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reputed to be bulletproof. In an effort to boost morale,

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wives and women's groups sent troops care packages containing Anzac biscuits.

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Although the original recipe evolved over time, the biscuits were

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made of essential pantry ingredients, and because they were bound

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by golden syrup rather than eggs, which were scarce as

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poultry farmers left to fight overseas, they were hardy enough

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to survive the two to three month journey to soldiers.

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The Department of Veteran Affairs has declared that calling an

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Anzac biscuit a cookie is una Australian. Australians and New

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Zealanders have argued for decades of where whether Anzac biscuits

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should be chewy or crunchy. Many bakers alter the recipe

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by adding lemon, zest raisins or nuts, but purists look

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down on this practice. I was very tempted to add

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white chocolate chips, but I did not. You're trying to

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be a purist, so I don't want to get arrested.

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So do Australians like them one way and New Zealanders

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like them a different way?

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I don't know. I don't know. I think most people

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like them hard, okay, because that's how the soldiers ate them.

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In Australia and New Zealand, April twenty fifth is a

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day of Remembrance to commemorate and honor the ANZACs and

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all service people who served and died in wars, conflicts

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or peacekeeping operations. Although a day of remembrance, both countries

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also celebrate the camaraderie of the ANZACs. Stories of their bravery, humor,

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and ingenuity and endurance left a powerful legacy, and Anzac biscuits,

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a small token of gratitudes sent from home, became a

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national symbol of their courageous Anzac spirit. Congratulations, emotions, crying,

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I'm such a baby. Oh my gosh, that's okay. Lest

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we forget was how I was supposed to done that?

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So I did bring you some Anzac.

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Business I'm looking for looking forward to try.

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Do you want to play the little songs?

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Sure?

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I mean you inspired me because you've been doing such

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a good job. So I kind of raised the steakes

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a little bit.

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All right, Going to bake my dad some man Zach biscuits,

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sending them to the Gonna bake my dad some man

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Zack biscuits, make sure that he comes home. Gonna make

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enough for my sister, Gonna bake enough for my mom,

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Gonna bake enough for the next door name, but who

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lost both his sons.

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All right, you have eaten the Anzac biscuit. What do

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you bicky? What do you think?

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I love it, really good good, that's what's called a cookie.

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But it tastes do not take a bath.

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It tastes like a really good cookie. Oh, I'm not

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sure what kind of cookie.

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It tastes sort of like a I thought the same thing.

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It's such a unique taste.

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Yeah, it almost tastes like a butter scotch like thing,

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but there's not butter scotch, so it's not that. But

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it's got the same sort of texture.

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Yeah, I kind of like I didn't brown the butter,

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but it had kind of a brown butter taste. The

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Lyles Golden syrup it's kind of like a corn syrup.

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And I did get that from Amazon. And yeah, it's

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a really good cookie.

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I love it. I'm giving it ten out of ten?

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Are you really? I think I would give it a

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ten out of ten too. I did do a little modification.

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Do you want to say what I did? You want

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to get arrested.

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You made it into a like a sandwich biscuit with

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a little frosting in between. I guess some.

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We had some leftover frosting from your birthday cake, so

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I just took some.

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That was nice. I thought it was a good.

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It's a good touchtoo. Yeah, they were delicious.

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Yeah.

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I still brought you some clementines, but you didn't touch them.

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No, I'm fine.

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With the Bickie Well, thank you for indulging us with

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our long intro there. We are trying to keep them

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to five minutes or less, but you inspired me with

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your whoopee pie songs.

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I do feel I do feel more educated, so I

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do like to learn things, so thank you for that.

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Today's episode discusses sensitive topics including domestic violence, grooming, and

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the sexual abuse of minors. These subjects may be distressing

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for some listeners, so please listen with care. Before we

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get started, I need to give credit to the sources

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I used in creating this episode. The telling of Lynn

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Dawson's story would not have been possible without the work

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of Headley Thomas and the Teacher's Pet podcast. I listened

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to the podcast. I read Headley's book of the same name.

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I also read Rebecca Hazel's book The Teacher, the Schoolgirl

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and his wife. Rebecca and Hedley were friends and collaborators.

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I read the sample of Chanelle Dawson's book My Mother's Eyes.

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The part of her book that I read was beautifully

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written and a lovely tribute to her mother Lynn. Out

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of those books, I believe that Rebecca hazelbook was probably

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my favorite. On Jeduary ninth, nineteen eighty two in Sydney, Australia.

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Lynn Dawson, a thirty three year old nurse wife and

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mum of two, disappeared without a trace. Lynn and her husband,

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Chris Dawson, a former rugby star, had recently gone through

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a rough patch in their marriage. To put it mildly, Chris,

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a high school pe teacher, had run away two days

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before Christmas with his sixteen year old students. Lynn was heartbroken,

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but put on a brave face for her two young daughters,

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who were her whole world. Chris returned home days later

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and refused to talk about the situation. Lynn pleaded with

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Chris to save their marriage. He agreed to go to

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marriage counseling. Lynn's friends and family were surprised by his

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sudden willingness to get help to improve their faltering relationship.

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After their first therapy session, Chris drove Lynn back to

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the daycare where she worked as a school nurse. Lynn's

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coworkers were shocked to see the couple hand in hand smiling.

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They knew the depth of Chris's infidelity. It was the

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last time anyone saw Lynn alive. Lynette Joy Simms was

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born on September twenty eighth, nineteen forty eight, to Helena

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and Len Sims, in a small town outside of Sydney,

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set along the northern beaches of New South Wales. New

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South Wales is the most populous state of Australia. The

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largest city is Sydney, the capital of New South Wales.

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Len Sims served in the Navy before he became a

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math teacher at South Sydney Boys High School. Helena was

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a homemaker then grew up in a small home in

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Clovelli with her three siblings, two brothers and one sister, Philip, Patricia, Lunette,

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and Greg. Lynn and her sister pat were very close.

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The four Sims children were all towheaded water babies.

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Oh are you laughing, toad?

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You don't know what toehead it means. It means blonde.

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Oh really, yeah, she gets up to people though. I

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have no idea.

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I think people know.

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Really, I never heard that phrase before. It just sounds

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funny to me.

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I'm teaching all sorts of things today. They lived steps

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from the ocean and they were an active bunch. The

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Sims loved to swim year round and take long hikes.

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It sounds like an idyllic childhood. However, Len Sims was stern,

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moody and controlling. He often drank too much. He was

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the disciplinarian in the family. The children were often afraid

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of him, as were his students. Although soft spoken, Lynn

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was the most likely of the four children to stand

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up to her father. She hated to see injustice, but

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in general, the four Sims children, blonde, fit, and sun kissed,

242
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had a good childhood. The family walked or took the

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bus everywhere. They didn't own a car. Lynn did buy

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a car once, but when a friend was teaching him

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to drive, he crashed it and he never drove again.

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Lynn never learned to drive either. Lynn was described as kind, generous,

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and loyal by all who knew her. A natural caregiver,

248
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nursing was an ideal career choice. She was organized and

249
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loved to plan parties. At the time of her disappearance,

250
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she was planning a surprise party for her mother, Helena.

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She was the glue in her family. Her sister pat

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said quote Lynne was a lovely, lovely person. She was gentle, caring, calm,

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and funny. Christopher Michael Dawson was born two months before

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his future wife on July twenty sixth, nineteen forty eight,

255
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.200
in Sydney, Australia, to Joan and Sidney Dawson. The Dawsons

256
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had five children, Peter, Gary, Linnell, Paul, and Chris. Chris

257
00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.440
is the youngest of five siblings, but only by minutes.

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He and his brother Paul are identical twins. Twins, especially

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identical twins, share a special bond that is hard to

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understand unless you are a twin. But Chris and Paul

261
00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.879
were so close at times it seemed that they were

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two halves made only whole when they were together. They

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were so intertwined. As small children, they developed a language

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unique to themselves. They had to attend speech therapy to

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learn to communicate with others. This is actually common in twins.

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It's called cryptophasia. It's defined as a language developed by

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twins that only they can understand.

268
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.039
Interesting. I have never heard of that either. I'm learning so.

269
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Much to Joan. Their mother loved the twinies, as she

270
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:14.360
called them. She was so proud of her handsome athletic

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sons and doated on them, especially Chris. I'm not sure

272
00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.000
which twin it was, but one of them was at

273
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a rugby match and they took the driving test for

274
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the other twins.

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Oh really. Lynn and Chris met when they were sixteen.

276
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Lynn went to Sydney Girls High School and Chris to

277
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Sydney Boys. They were both prefects at their respective schools.

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I hate to ask again another question. What is a prefect?

279
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:43.559
I really really know you don't know either.

280
00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.080
I think it's like maybe like what we would refer

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00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.000
to as student council. It's like students that are model

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students for others. I believe that's the case.

283
00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.720
Okay. They met at a ants and quickly became a couple.

284
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Chris was the only boy that Lynn ever loved or dated.

285
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Chris got along well with Lynn's family, Helena, Lynn's mother

286
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.759
especially loved Chris. They were an attractive, happy, and affectionate couple,

287
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always well dressed and perfectly groomed. They married on March

288
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twenty sixth, nineteen seventy, when they were both twenty one. Paul,

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Chris's twin, had married his wife Marilyn a year earlier.

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The two couples shared an apartment until they later built houses.

291
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Lynn studied to become a nurse, while Chris focused on

292
00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:36.639
his athletic career. Chris and Paul both played rugby for

293
00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:40.279
the Newtown Jets from nineteen seventy two to nineteen seventy seven.

294
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They played rugby union before switching to rugby league.

295
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.919
Can you explain the difference between rugby you did to

296
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your Australian listeners. Please forgive us for what we were

297
00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:53.759
about to do, because I know you all probably know

298
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and love rugby and I will tried my best.

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Let me explain, great Tina. Leagues are often both referred

300
00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:05.559
to simply as rugby, but there are forms of football

301
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.360
in Australia and New Zealand. They may be called football

302
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.679
or footy. The key difference is between rugby league and

303
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rugby union are the number of players. Rugby league has

304
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thirteen players per side, while rugby union has fifteen. Different

305
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rules on tackles, possessions and scoring. League is generally faster

306
00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.840
paced and less complex, while union focuses more on strategy

307
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:31.679
and set piece play. Rugby league is referred to as

308
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.480
footy in New South Wales and Queensland, where it's more popular.

309
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:37.919
I'm gonna have to do some googling here because I

310
00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.759
know I have a friend who is Australian, Dave and

311
00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:43.840
he's really into Australian rules football.

312
00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.120
I didn't use him as a source, but I didn't And.

313
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.960
I thought Australian rules football was called footy. But that's

314
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.200
different than rugby.

315
00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.639
So on their soccer so I so it's too confusing.

316
00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.639
It wasn't really the most important part of this case. Okay,

317
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:00.519
all right, Well let's just believe or not.

318
00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:04.359
Chris was the less skilled of the twins. Several people

319
00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.000
said that Paul insisted to coaches that he and Chris

320
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.279
were a package deal. Without Paul, Chris may not have

321
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.839
had a professional career. A former coach of the twins

322
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.519
said that despite their exceptionally close bond, the brothers didn't

323
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.759
play well together, which ultimately led to Chris being cut

324
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.599
from the team. After Chris's career fell apart, Paul left

325
00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.839
rugby behind. Two after Chris and Paul's rugby careers ended,

326
00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.880
they both went to college to become high school pe teachers.

327
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.519
Chris became a teacher at Cromer High School and Paul

328
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.079
at Forest High School, only a few miles apart.

329
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.799
You asked me off air, if everyone knows what pe

330
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:47.160
teacher means. In case people don't, it means physical education. Yeah,

331
00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.559
did you refer to your gym teacher as a PE

332
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:50.599
teacher or what?

333
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.559
I think we just call it a gym teacher.

334
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.000
Okay, I think we said pe, but maybe I'm wrong.

335
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:58.960
Marilyn and Paul had three daughters in quick succession. Before

336
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.720
Lynn and Chris had conceived any children. A doctor once

337
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.880
told Lynn she wouldn't be able to have children. After

338
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:09.039
failing to conceive for six years. Lynn had a procedure

339
00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.039
to clear a blocked fillopian tube, but she didn't think

340
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.240
it had worked. She and Chris had begun the application

341
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.359
process for adoption when she realized that she was in

342
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.720
fact pregnant. Chanelle was born on July ninth, nineteen seventy

343
00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.799
seven via C section, and Sharon or Sherry two years

344
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.279
and two days later. Lynn adored her girls. Her entire

345
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.960
world revolved around them. After Chanelle was born, Lynn and

346
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.000
Chris were thrilled to be parents, but soon he pestered

347
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.160
her about the pregnancy weight she had gained. Being a

348
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.319
former athlete and competitive with his twin, he was in

349
00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.559
top condition. It made Lynn feel insecure, despite loving her

350
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.200
new role as a mother. I will just give some

351
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:53.559
advice to any husbands out there. Whose wives have recently

352
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had a baby.

353
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.839
Two listeners.

354
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.680
Yes, do not criticize her for not taking off the

355
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.720
pregnancy weight. So don't do it.

356
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.160
It's so so hard. Actually, if you notice anyone has

357
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.799
gained a couple of pounds, you don't need to say anything.

358
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.599
They know. In nineteen seventy five, with a generous eight

359
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.200
thousand dollars loan from Helena and Lynn, Lynn and Chris

360
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.960
bought a plot of land in Bayview, New South Wales,

361
00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.680
near Sydney's northern beaches, for thirty one thousand dollars and

362
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.240
began building their dream house at two Kilwinga Drive. The

363
00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.720
home cost them about seventy thousand dollars to build. The

364
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.759
area was mostly undeveloped and surrounded by bush. The Dawson's

365
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:36.200
land was exceptionally rocky and on a steep incline. The house,

366
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:40.599
a sprawling brick ranch, turned out beautifully. Many people called

367
00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.599
Lynn House Proud. She had a knack for design and

368
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.720
created a stunning, warm and comfortable home. Paul and Maryland

369
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.039
bought a plot of land just two lots away and

370
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.799
built their own home. Lynn loved their house, but she

371
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.480
was nervous about living in a remote area. Surrounded by

372
00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.160
bush without transportation. Chris was supposed to teach her how

373
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.039
to drive, but he ever did. Lynn had always lived

374
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.160
in a city with good public transportation, so not having

375
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.200
a driver's license hadn't been an issue. Neither of her

376
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.319
parents drove either, and in the coming years, Lynn would

377
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.519
often feel isolated from her family and she missed them.

378
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.720
In nineteen seventy five, when they were twenty seven, Chris

379
00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.480
and Paul, along with Lynn and Marilyn, appeared on a

380
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:25.359
weekly television program on the ABC network called Checkerboard. The

381
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.160
episode was about twins. Because Lynn went missing years before

382
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.680
most families had video recorders, her family had no video

383
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.960
of her. Her brother Greg contacted ABC in hopes of

384
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.640
getting a copy of the episode so they could see

385
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.279
Lynn and hear her voice again. He was told that

386
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.279
it was unlikely that ABC still had the video, but

387
00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.599
months later, Greg was contacted by ABC just before Christmas

388
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.319
informing him that they'd found the video. Other than having

389
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.079
Lynn back with them, it was the best possible gift.

390
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.519
Greg and Lynn's families were very grateful and emotional to

391
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.880
be able to share the video with her daughters, who

392
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.000
had no real memories of her. In the video. Lynn

393
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.440
comes to life with her quiet beauty, sparkling eyes, warm smile,

394
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:08.519
and soothing voice.

395
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.559
Do you ever.

396
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:17.880
Resent that very close relationship between the first question that

397
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:19.480
people asked and no, you must have a lot of

398
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:21.519
fun swapping and changing.

399
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:22.400
Around and they've never done it.

400
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.559
I think they've been accused of doing it on the

401
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:30.839
football field. Somebody a couple of years ago said what

402
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.480
is it like sharing a husband? And to me it

403
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.599
was just seems so silly because that hadn't put any

404
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.359
thought it and you just john in.

405
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.240
I'll try to post a small snippet of that video.

406
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.319
But she's just so lovely and well spoken, and she

407
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.240
looks a little like Princess Diana. She has that kind

408
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.359
of sweet demrror.

409
00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:52.079
It's funny because I was going to say her voice

410
00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:54.400
reminded me, and it was an Australian accent, but it

411
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:58.000
reminded me a little bit and just that soft, sort

412
00:21:58.039 --> 00:21:58.880
of really sweet.

413
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.119
I always like to hear people voices and I'm gonna

414
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.119
get emotional now, but she just seemed like such a

415
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.880
lovely woman. The twins appeared charming and affable in the

416
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.079
video in a well polished routine. Paul joked about being

417
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:13.279
the oldest twin. He said, quote Chris was too stupid

418
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.519
to find his way out by himself. Chris quickly retorted,

419
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.799
I always say he was so stupid I had to

420
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:20.799
push him out first.

421
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:22.799
That's pretty, that's pretty adorable.

422
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.480
That is the last time in this episode that you

423
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:26.720
will find the twins adorable.

424
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:27.960
I'm sure that is true. Yes.

425
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.039
Joanne Carlson was in year ten of high school when

426
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:34.079
she caught the eye of Chris Dawson in nineteen seventy nine,

427
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.799
his first year teaching at Cromer High School. The next year,

428
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:39.960
he made sure that she was in one of his

429
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:43.480
pe classes. Joanne was a smart, pretty girl with a

430
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.119
troubled home life. After her parents' divorce, her mother married

431
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.200
a man who was physically in verbally abusive to her,

432
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.519
causing Joanne great to stress. Embarrassed by her situation, she

433
00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.240
didn't feel comfortable talking to her friends about her dysfunctional

434
00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.440
home life. Chris always gave her attention and seemed to

435
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.759
take a genuine interest in her personal life. She began

436
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.359
to confide in him. Soon he asked her if she

437
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.400
could babiesit his daughter's Chanel three and share in one.

438
00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.799
Joanne enjoyed spending time with the young girls and developed

439
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.200
a friendship with Lynn too. It became a weekly routine,

440
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.599
even if Lynn and Chris had no plans to go out.

441
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.759
Chris would pick Joanne up on Saturday afternoon and she

442
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:24.000
would spend the night at the house on Gilwinga Drive,

443
00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:26.839
and then he would drive her home on Sunday afternoon.

444
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.920
Joanne also became familiar with Paul, Marilyn and their children.

445
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.240
Chris even took Joanne out for driving lessons. Remember he'd

446
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.880
always promise to teach Lynn how to drive, but he'd

447
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.640
never gotten around to it. During one of these driving lessons,

448
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.720
Chris told Joanne he had feelings for her and kissed

449
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.759
the sixteen year old girl for the first time. In

450
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.119
New South Wales, the age of consent was sixteen, but

451
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.839
it was still a criminal offense for a teacher to

452
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.079
become involved with a student under the carnal knowledge law.

453
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:02.400
Carnal knowledge is an old fashioned term basically means sexual intercourse.

454
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.000
When Chris's parents were away, he took Joanne to their

455
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.839
house and had sex for the first time. At home,

456
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.559
the tension between Joanne and her stepfather escalated. He began

457
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.319
pushing her around too. When she tried to protect her mother,

458
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.160
Joanne's father photographed her bruised face and took her to

459
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:23.039
the police station to file the report against the stepfather,

460
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:26.880
but the police didn't intervene. Joanne was close with her

461
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:28.799
father and he wanted her to move in with him,

462
00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:31.440
but he lived too far from Cromer High School and

463
00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.319
she didn't want to transfer. But when his ex wife

464
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.039
called to tell him that their daughter was having an

465
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.759
affair with her teacher, he was furious and told her

466
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.440
how wrong the situation was. Chris was wrong for taking

467
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.319
advantage of her, and she was wrong for coming between

468
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.039
a married couple. He warned her that he would cut

469
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.079
ties with her if she continued the relationship, but she

470
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.720
was so blinded by what she thought was love she

471
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:58.200
didn't care. They were estranged for several years. Chris and

472
00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:01.079
Lynn allowed Joanne to move into their house in October

473
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.640
nineteen eighty one. They were used to having her around anyway.

474
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.680
Chris was consumed with Joanne. He risked everything to be

475
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.359
with her, his marriage, his family, reputation, and career. Lynn,

476
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.240
his children in the community, held Chris on a pedestal.

477
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:18.599
He had so much to lose but he was so

478
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:22.720
utterly obsessed he couldn't help himself. He repeatedly asked Joanne

479
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:27.400
to marry him and remember Joanne's at sixteen and still

480
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.640
in high school. At first, Lynne felt empathy for the

481
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.960
wayward girl. Lynn's friends warned her that it wasn't right

482
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.519
and she was asking for trouble having the schoolgirl live

483
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.000
with them. One day, Lynn returned home after work and

484
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:43.359
found Joanne topless in the pool when she was supposed

485
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:46.839
to be watching Chanel and Sharon. At Kromer High School,

486
00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.839
the affair between Joanne and Chris was common knowledge. The

487
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.359
student's staff and even some of the parents knew. Sadly,

488
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.240
everyone but Lynn knew they were openly a couple. At

489
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:01.119
Chromer High Joanne would often be seen city on Chris's lap.

490
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:03.519
He would write her a past to leave class, and

491
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:06.799
they would have sex in the storeroom. Joanne's grades began

492
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:07.279
to falter.

493
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:11.079
Like the the expression on my face right now, I'm like,

494
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.759
how is he not like fired for this? Like how

495
00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:16.240
it just this is mind boggling.

496
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:20.799
It definitely is. A former student said they were hidden

497
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:23.640
in plain sight. He was even her date to the

498
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:28.359
formal dance. God not one adult at Chromer High intervened.

499
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:29.160
Wow.

500
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.279
One day, Lynn wasn't feeling well and left work early.

501
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.680
She arrived home in a taxi and found Joanne and

502
00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.359
Chris together in their bed, but I must have been clothed.

503
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.839
Lynn paid a visit to Joanne's mother, Margot, and asked

504
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.119
her if she thought the relationship was sexual. Margo said

505
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.440
she didn't think so. During this time, Lynn's friends at

506
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.880
coworkers said that she became depressed and she took less

507
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.359
care in her appearance. Her usually meticulous house wasn't as tidy,

508
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.119
and all the plants that she'd lovingly care for had died.

509
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.319
When Chris had a surgical procedure on his nose at

510
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.559
the hospital, he explicitly told Lynne not to visit him,

511
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:10.200
but Helena, Lynne's mom, who adored Chris, went to see

512
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.279
him and found Joanne in his hospital bed. She called

513
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:15.440
Lynn and told her that she needed to do something

514
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.599
to save her marriage before it was too late. In

515
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.160
October nineteen eighty one, Lynne confronted Joanne. She said, quote,

516
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.519
I understand that you've been taking liberties with my husband.

517
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:28.839
The truth was so hurtful to Lyne that she couldn't

518
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:32.039
say the appropriate words. She didn't yell. She just told

519
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.400
Joanne that she needed to leave. Joanne was too embarrassed

520
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.720
to utter a word. She never spoke to Lynn again.

521
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.599
In fact, after Lynne went to bed, Joanne gathered her

522
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.279
belongings and left. She walked down the road to paul

523
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.960
In Marilyn's house. She moved in with them, unbeknownst to Lynn.

524
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.240
Marilyn wasn't happy about their new room mate, but she

525
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.279
knew that she didn't have much choice in the matter.

526
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:55.519
Chris put a five hundred dollar deposit on an apartment.

527
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:57.559
He planned to leave Lynn and the girls to start

528
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.599
a new life with Joanne, until his older brother, Peter,

529
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.279
an attorney, told him he'd lose his house if he left.

530
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:08.440
Years later, during a coroner's inquest, Joanne recounted a drive

531
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.480
she and Chris took to a remote location. She couldn't

532
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.880
remember exactly where they went, but she said it looked

533
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:16.480
like a hotel. Chris told her to stand the car.

534
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.319
When he came back, he told Joanne that he decided

535
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.599
to hire a hitman to kill Lynnette, but he changed

536
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.759
his mind because quote too many people would get hurt.

537
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.559
She remembered thinking at the time that he was such

538
00:28:28.599 --> 00:28:31.799
a good person because he changed his mind. Chris was

539
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.599
a really frugal guy, so I think he could have

540
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.759
just said, you know what, this is too much money.

541
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.519
I'll just do it myself. On December twenty first, nineteen

542
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.200
eighty one, Chris approached Lynn with a real estate contract

543
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.240
in his hand, and he demanded she sign it. He

544
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.359
wanted to sell their home for two hundred and eighty

545
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.799
thousand dollars. Lynn loved her home and she was very

546
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.160
proud of what she and Chris had built together. She

547
00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:57.920
refused to sign the contract and he angrily stormed out

548
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.920
of the house. We'll be bad after a break.

549
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:11.799
On December twenty third, nineteen eighty one, Chris walked out

550
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:14.960
on Lynn, Chanel and Sharon. He was supposed to pick

551
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.240
Lynn up from work that day. She'd gone Christmas shopping

552
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:21.519
and had a lot of packages. After an hour of waiting,

553
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.839
she called Paul and asked where Chris was. He said

554
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.640
he didn't know, but by that time Chris and Joanne,

555
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.119
freshly graduated from high school, had taken the family car

556
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.880
and were driving towards Queensland to start their new life.

557
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.359
Together and Australia, the school year is different than it

558
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:41.680
is here in the United States. We start in late

559
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:46.319
August or September and we go into like May. In Australia,

560
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.720
I think the school year starts in January or February

561
00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:52.680
and it goes. They have more breaks throughout the year

562
00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:57.000
and it ends in December. Okay, so she had just

563
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:58.160
graduated from high school.

564
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.519
Gotcha? Lynn arrived home by taxi to find Chris had

565
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.000
packed all of his belongings and left behind a note

566
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.960
on their bed that said he was leaving her quote

567
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.480
don't paint too black a picture of me to the girls.

568
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:12.559
He wrote he was in love with Joanne and wanted

569
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.799
to spend the rest of his life with her, well

570
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.160
as long as she didn't age or gain a pound.

571
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:20.759
Despite Lynde's broken heart, she gave each daughter a kiss

572
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.400
that she said was from their dad and told them

573
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.759
that he had to go away on a sudden holiday.

574
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.599
She had wanted to buy a playhouse for the girls

575
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.839
for Christmas. With Chris gone, she didn't have enough money

576
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.480
to buy the house or a way to transport it home.

577
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.799
That hurt really made me mad.

578
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:40.079
I know, well, yeah, the fact that she isn't able

579
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.480
to drive, and their house is out in the bush also,

580
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:46.359
and he just left her. After driving through the night

581
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.920
nearly to Queensland, Joanne began to regret her decision to

582
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.880
leave and begged Chris to turn around and head back

583
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.240
to Bayview. She was so anxious that her skin broke

584
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.599
out in hives. They drove to Paul and Marylyn's house

585
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:02.079
and in a closet while the rest of their family

586
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.400
spent Christmas together, So just to be as sure, I understand.

587
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:07.720
So Paul and Marilyn knew that they were there, but

588
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:09.039
they hid in the closet.

589
00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:11.480
Why I hid in the closet while the little girls

590
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.319
were opening their Christmas present and Lynn was over. I

591
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:17.160
think Lynn might have been there at some point. Okay, yes,

592
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:19.599
but they were hiding from the children because they didn't

593
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.400
want the children to tell anyone. Oh, uncle Chris is

594
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.079
here with some Actually they would have known, Joanne, so yeah, okay.

595
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:29.599
The next night they slept in the high school gymnasium

596
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:31.720
on the mats where they used to have sex during

597
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:35.160
school hours. While Joanne tried to sleep, she had the

598
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:38.519
realization that this wasn't the life that she wanted for herself.

599
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.799
Why was she sleeping on the gymnasium floor when Chris

600
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.240
could afford a hotel. She decided to break things off

601
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.960
with Chris for good. The following morning, Chris dropped her

602
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.799
off at her mother's house. He threw her bags out

603
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:55.559
of his car onto the curb. Days later, Joanne found

604
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.720
life with her mother and stepfather untenable, so she moved

605
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:03.200
in with her sister. Joanne seventeen, was unmoored. She had

606
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:06.960
no good options. Trauma met her at every turn. She

607
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.359
regretted becoming involved with Chris, a man twice her age,

608
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:13.640
and her part in breaking up a family. When she

609
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:15.839
tried to break up with Chris, he wouldn't let her.

610
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.160
He said he'd die if she left him. He returned

611
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.720
home to Lynne, but he was sullen and short tempered

612
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:25.559
with her. Lynn was so worried about Chris's angry outbursts

613
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:27.720
that she had made him an appointment with a doctor,

614
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:29.960
as if there was a medical reason. He was so

615
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:30.799
quick tempered.

616
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.079
So that's how sweet Lynne is. She's not like, snap

617
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:36.680
out of it. Why are you being such an a hole? Yeah,

618
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:38.559
she was like, oh, there must be a medical reason

619
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:38.839
for this.

620
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:40.000
Ah, that's really sad.

621
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.519
We can get you better, Chris.

622
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:44.279
On New Year's Eve, he told Lynn he was going

623
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.640
to a yacht party. She asked if she and the

624
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.759
girls could go with them, because they had had such

625
00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:51.759
a sad Christmas, and he said no, there was room

626
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.200
for only him. Lynne bargained with him and said that

627
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.400
she and the girls could stay ashore and watch the

628
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.759
ships come in. He again said no, he was meeting

629
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.759
up with Joanne, of course. On New Year's Day nineteen

630
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.200
eighty two, Joanne left on a trip with her sister

631
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.640
and some friends to celebrate graduation and to clear her head.

632
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.519
They went camping at Southwest Rocks, about five hours away.

633
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.839
Chris made her promise she would call him every day,

634
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.799
which she did. He told her how much he missed

635
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.559
her and he couldn't live without her, but Joanne was

636
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.480
enjoying her freedom. Lynn implored Chris to go to marriage

637
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:31.680
counseling with her. Surprisingly, he agreed. She made an appointment

638
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:34.599
for January eighth, nineteen eighty two.

639
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.480
Chris drove Lynn back to the childcare center after their

640
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.599
therapy session. Lynn's co workers were surprised to see the

641
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:44.559
couple smiling and lovingly holding hands, Chris really showed affection

642
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:48.400
to his wife. Later, after Chris left, Lyne's friends noted

643
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:51.200
that she seemed happy and determined that her marriage could

644
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.880
be saved. They noticed bruising on Lynn's neck. She said

645
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.799
that in the elevator on their way up to the therapist's office,

646
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.799
Chris had throttled her and said, if this doesn't work,

647
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.519
I'm getting rid of you. She tried to play it

648
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:05.519
off as a joke, but her friends were alarmed for

649
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:09.039
her safety. The last confirmation of someone other than Chris

650
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.039
speaking to Lynn came from her mother, Helena. She called

651
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.599
the house on Gowinga Drive at about eight thirty pm

652
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:18.199
on January eighth. Chris answered the phone. He didn't want

653
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:21.280
to put Lynn on the line until Helena insisted. She

654
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.960
recalled that her daughter sounded very sleepy and intoxicated on

655
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:28.840
the phone call. She said the word sozzled actually, which

656
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.719
I think is a great word. That is a great word,

657
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.679
Lynn said, quote Chris has made me a lovely drink.

658
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.280
Lynn normally wasn't a drinker, but after Joanne had moved in,

659
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.480
Chris began slipping sedatives into her drinks. In the evening.

660
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:43.480
She would not off and Chris could spend time alone

661
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.639
with Joanne, but that night Joanne wasn't at the Dawson's house.

662
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.920
She hadn't been there since her confrontation with Lynn in October.

663
00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:53.440
While she was on the phone with her mother, Lynne

664
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.639
told Helena that she and Chris had gone to marriage

665
00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:58.480
counseling earlier in the day and their marriage was back

666
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:02.159
on track. Helene, it was very happy to hear this news.

667
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:04.920
Helena and Lynn made plans to meet up the next

668
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.159
day at the Northridge Baths for a day of swimming

669
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:10.639
in sun with the girls while Chris worked his shift,

670
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.679
but Lynn never showed up. Lynn was likely killed somewhere

671
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.800
between nine pm on January eighth, nineteen eighty two and

672
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:22.400
eight am on January ninth. Chris possibly hired a hit

673
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.559
man to kill her and dispose of her body.

674
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.440
You said earlier you thought he may have been too

675
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.880
frugal to hire a hit man. I guess we just

676
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:30.480
don't know.

677
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.280
Right, I'm saying it's just a possibility. Yeah, I don't

678
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.360
think he did, but it's a possibility. When Chris saw

679
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.840
Helena the next day at the Baths around two pm,

680
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.760
where he and Paul worked part time as lifeguards or

681
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:45.199
life savers if you're in Australia. He asked her if

682
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.599
she'd seen Lynn. Around three pm, Chris was called away

683
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:51.239
to take a phone call. He later told Helena that

684
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.320
the call had been from Lynn. She told him that

685
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.840
she needed to get her head together and was taking

686
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.480
a break from their marriage for a few days on

687
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:03.800
the Central Coast. Helena was confused what could have transpired

688
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:06.280
between the hours that she had last talked to her daughter,

689
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.320
when she was in good spirits, to provoke her to

690
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.880
suddenly want to take a break from her marriage. Chris

691
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.159
said he dropped Lyn off at the Mona Vail bus

692
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.719
stop around seven am to go to the shops in

693
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:21.960
Chatswood to make some after Christmas returns. Let's talk for

694
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.519
a second about why this doesn't make sense. They have

695
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:28.280
two young girls ages two and four. He's driving her

696
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.599
to the bus stop at seven am, so he would

697
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:33.599
have to get the two girls like ready and changed

698
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.719
his shift at the baths started at nine am, and

699
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:40.760
the baths wherever the baths were it was it would

700
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:43.639
have been shorter for him to like drive her to

701
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:47.800
the Chatswood shops rather than for her to take the bus.

702
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.840
If she would have taken the bus, she would have

703
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:54.199
had to have a transfer took and then she would

704
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:56.280
have gotten to the shops at about the same time

705
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:59.119
that she would have gotten there if Chris had driven her.

706
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:00.800
And what shops or open it? Seven?

707
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:02.320
Ye I was going to ask you that that doesn't

708
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:03.039
make sense either.

709
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.920
Chanelle four and Sharon two never saw their mom again.

710
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:10.400
On his next call with Joanne, remember she is off

711
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.639
camping and she's calling him from a payphone, Chris asked

712
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.679
her to move in and help with his girls. He

713
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:19.239
said that Lynn was gone and not coming back. She

714
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:21.400
had joined a religious group that had come to their

715
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:24.039
house in December. She said that she was staying in

716
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:28.280
the Blue Mountains in western Sydney. Joanne agreed to move

717
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:32.079
into Lynn's house on Gilwinga Drive. So at this point

718
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:34.679
Joanne had pretty much decided that she was going to

719
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:36.760
break up with Chris, but she must have had some

720
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:40.840
empathy for the situation, okay. On January tenth, Chris drove

721
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:42.920
through the night to pick up Joanne from her camping

722
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:47.199
trip at Southwest Rocks, about one thousand kilometers away. Joanne

723
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.159
moved into the house with Chris and the girls. The

724
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:51.039
same house that Lynn had kicked her out of two

725
00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:54.119
months earlier. She shared the bed that Chris had shared

726
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:58.159
with Lynn only a few days before. Lynne's drawers were

727
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.599
still full of her belongings. Joanne stripp Lynn's closet and

728
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.960
drawers of her belongings. She retained some of Lynd's things

729
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.760
for herself and put the rest in trash bags.

730
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.119
Okay, so just to be clear, it's been two days

731
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:13.079
since Lynn allegedly, maybe.

732
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:16.159
Three, maybe four, but you know, maximum four. We're not

733
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:17.519
sure of the exact right.

734
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.440
But regardless, it's a two or three days after she

735
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.719
has supposedly left him to join some religious group, and

736
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.760
his seventeen year old girlfriend is moving.

737
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:27.719
In maybe sixteen. I'm not sure when her birthday is,

738
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.599
but she's either sixty yes, yeah.

739
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:33.599
Taking her place and moving into their house, sleeping in

740
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:38.000
Lynn's bed with her husband and throwing her stuff in

741
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:40.280
the trash. That's crazy.

742
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:43.960
Days later, Chris called Helena and told her that he

743
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.480
had again heard from Lynn. She told him that she

744
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:49.599
needed more time away. He said, quote, how much more

745
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:52.320
bloody time do you need? I have a question for

746
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.599
you off top bloody, Like, what is the equivalent of

747
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:02.960
bloody in a American English. Is it the F word?

748
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.079
I guess yeah, probably.

749
00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.159
I'm sorry, I've always wondered that because it seems like

750
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:09.440
it's used so commonly.

751
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:11.639
Yeah, it doesn't seem like as bad as the F word.

752
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.719
Well, Lynn allegedly said she wouldn't come home if he

753
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.880
spoke to her like that. Chris told Lynn that she

754
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:20.400
needed to contact her mother, and she said she would.

755
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.320
He asked her to come home. He said we all

756
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:25.480
needed her. She said, I can't.

757
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.920
We all need you, even though I've got my girlfriend

758
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:29.639
here living.

759
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.320
With us now and she's going to have to kick

760
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:32.599
her out of the bed. It's going to be awkward

761
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:35.159
if you come home. This guy, Helena and Lynn had

762
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.320
talked on the phone every day, some day, some days,

763
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:41.280
multiple times a day. Lynn was planning a surprise party

764
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:44.440
for her, and she'd even had a special She was

765
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:48.159
having a dressmaker make a special blouse for her. She

766
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:52.159
would not left her family or her friends wondering about

767
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:53.119
her states.

768
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.760
You mentioned she wouldn't have left her two children behind.

769
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.199
Her closest friends worked at the childcare center with her

770
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.360
where she was the and I believe that the child

771
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:05.519
care center couldn't run unless a nurse was there and

772
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:06.880
for no other reason.

773
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.440
Oh yeah, she would have felt the responsibility and she.

774
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.559
Loved her coworkers. She just would not have left on

775
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:16.599
her own volition. The administrator at Chromer High put pressure

776
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:19.119
on Chris to resign when the gossip about his and

777
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:23.920
Joann's relationship reached a fever pitch. Bev Bellkind replaced Chris

778
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.320
Dawson as physical education teacher after he left Kromer High.

779
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.480
One of the classes was for children with special needs.

780
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:33.880
They told the new teacher that they didn't need her

781
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.800
to stay with them during their scheduled class. They explained

782
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.960
that mister Dawson always left them and went into the

783
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:43.119
store room with Joanne during their gym time. Chris transferred

784
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.079
from Chromer High School to Beacon High School. His reputation

785
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:48.599
preceded him. Everyone at the new high school knew that

786
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:52.440
he was living with the teenager. In February eighteenth, nineteen

787
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.800
eighty two, six weeks after Lynn had gone missing, Chris

788
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:58.880
finally went to the police, and then only because Helena

789
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.880
had insisted. He went to the Mona Vale Police station

790
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:05.840
to file a missing person's report. He reported Lynn's disappearance

791
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.639
date as January fifteenth, although he'd last seen her on

792
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.199
January ninth. At the time, Chris said that she'd used

793
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.639
her bank card twice, once January twelfth and once on

794
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:20.519
January twenty sixth, both times at a clothing store. He

795
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.480
claimed that she'd called him on January fifteenth, a week

796
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:26.480
after the first call he'd received at the baths, then

797
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.440
told Chris that she wasn't returning and she needed more time,

798
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:32.360
and that was allegedly the last time that he heard

799
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:36.400
from Lynn. Chris placed a two line advertisement in the

800
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.199
Daily Telegraph on March twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two, which

801
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:43.199
said quote Lynn, I love you. We all miss you.

802
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.679
Please ring we want you home Chris. Chris never followed

803
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:49.840
up with law enforcement to see if there was any

804
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:53.400
new information in Lyne's investigation, and he never called Lynn's

805
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:56.320
family or friends to ask if they'd heard from her.

806
00:41:57.320 --> 00:41:59.840
The Simms family was not able to get information about

807
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:03.719
the investigation. Only Chris could. Lynn's brother, Greg was a

808
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:07.039
police officer, and he wasn't even able to receive information

809
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.039
about the case. After Chris was remarried years later, Helene

810
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:13.480
became the point of contact in the investigation.

811
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:15.920
So that's like a law that you can only the

812
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.719
police can only provide information to the spouse as like

813
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.280
the next of kin or something like that.

814
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:25.119
I'm not sure if that's the law, but that was

815
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:26.480
the case in this situation.

816
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.400
Okay, that's really weird, especially if the husband is probably

817
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:33.920
the one who did something to make or disappear.

818
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:36.320
Well, and Greg was a police officer and he said

819
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.840
he couldn't even get information, and years later that was

820
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.079
actually used against him. They were like, well, you're a

821
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.679
police officer, you could have gotten the information.

822
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:47.679
Yeah, that's too bad. Years later, in a police report

823
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:51.199
written for the New South Wales Police Department, Joanne wrote

824
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.719
about Lynn quote, she was a devoted mother, especially with

825
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:58.039
the older child Chanel. She was an affectionate wife and

826
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:01.000
obviously in love with Chris. She loved her house and

827
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:03.719
had a real talent for interior design in making the

828
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.199
place look great. She was house proud and paid detailed

829
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.079
attention as to how the place looked. She was a

830
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:13.480
nursing sister with high qualifications, but only worked part time

831
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:17.719
at the Warrywoods Square Occasional Care Center. Lynn appeared close

832
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:20.719
to her mother and visited her quite often. All these

833
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.159
activities kept Lynn fully occupied especially as their house had

834
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:27.760
only been built in nineteen seventy six. In contrast to

835
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:31.239
Lynn being devoted to Chris, Chris's attitude to Lynn appeared

836
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.320
very cool. When Lynn tried to hug him, he would

837
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.760
recoil away and shrug her off. He would sing songs

838
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:41.679
with hurtful lyrics or double meanings in order to antagonize her.

839
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.599
He did not appear to have any warmth towards her.

840
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:48.360
Lynn obviously adored Chris right to the time she went missing.

841
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.719
She did not appear to blame Chris for our relationship.

842
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.199
So seventeen year old Joanne slid into her new role

843
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:59.679
as surrogate wife and mom to Chris and his daughters,

844
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:02.800
exactly the life that every teenager dreams of. But she

845
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:06.159
thought she was madly in love with Chris Dawson. She

846
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.280
wasn't looking for any information to contradict what Chris had

847
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.599
said about Lynn abandoning her family, but she couldn't help

848
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.960
but notice a few things were strange. Lynne's closet and

849
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:19.400
drawers were full of her belongings. Nothing was missing, not

850
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.519
even her jewelry minus her wedding and engagement rings. She

851
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:26.599
noticed some fresh pavers had been installed around the pool.

852
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:30.440
One night, the phone rang and Chris answered it. Later,

853
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.960
he said Lynn had called and told him that she

854
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:36.480
was with friends and she was fine. Although Joanne had

855
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.559
babysat Chanel and Sharon, she didn't know how to care

856
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.320
for two young children full time, how to cook or

857
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.760
keep house. Joanne's own mother hadn't been much of a

858
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:50.039
caregiver or cook. They took to eating packaged meals. Chris

859
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:52.880
asked Marilyn to come over to teach Joanne how to cook,

860
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:56.719
but she had no interest in domestic pursuits. She resented

861
00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.360
looking after Chanel and Sharon and frequently asked Chris when

862
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.519
Lynn was going to return for her girls. I can't

863
00:45:03.559 --> 00:45:06.039
even imagine you're seventeen years old and you're put in

864
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:10.239
this situation, Like, yeah, she must have been very resentful, she.

865
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:12.679
Said something of it, like she hadn't She literally had

866
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:15.719
no idea how to cook. Yeah, and she didn't even

867
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:18.280
know how to make mashed potatoes. And she was like

868
00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:20.920
looking she like at dinner time every night, she would

869
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.760
get nervous because everyone was staring at her, and she's like,

870
00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:26.800
I just don't know. She didn't know what to do.

871
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.840
One afternoon, while Joanne was picking up the girls from school.

872
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:33.920
Helena was at the school waiting with gifts for the children.

873
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:36.960
She hadn't seen her granddaughters in a long time and

874
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.800
missed them greatly. She had lost her daughter and she

875
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.519
didn't want to lose Chanelle and Sharon too. Joanne rushed

876
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.199
them off and wouldn't allow them to speak to their grandmother.

877
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.199
It developed into quite a scene. Helena yelled at Joanne

878
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.840
and called her a little slut. Shortly after, Helena sent

879
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.800
a letter to Chris. Dear Chris, it grieves and saddens

880
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:00.039
me that you would issue an edict that should I

881
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.800
come to the school, I was not to see my grandchildren.

882
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.320
It would seem that you have achieved what you have

883
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.199
set out to do, rid yourself of Lynn, to whom

884
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.880
you said, I don't love you anymore. I hate you,

885
00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:14.199
and I have no feeling for you, and I don't

886
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:17.039
want to be married to Lynn anymore. And that's enough

887
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:21.440
to break anyone's spirit. I've never condoned mothers leaving their children.

888
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.199
I don't know how they could, but by the same token,

889
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:26.760
I do not condone a father either, who takes off

890
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.320
instead of facing up to the problem. You've wielded the

891
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:32.639
big stick and cut me out of yours and Lynn's

892
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:36.119
children's lives. I love my granddaughters, and don't you ever

893
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:39.039
tell them differently, Chris. Now they are lost to me

894
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.760
as well as to their pretend mother. The burden is great.

895
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:47.280
Poor Helena. Yeah, she was devastated by the loss of

896
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:47.960
live Oh of.

897
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:51.880
Course, Yeah, that's terrible. Chris and Paul were identical twins

898
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.960
and had always been close, but to many, their relationship

899
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:59.480
seemed strangely close. Even to other twins, they never seemed

900
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.519
to form their their own identities. Peter and Gary were

901
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:05.800
the two older Dawson brothers. The four brothers all enjoyed

902
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:09.280
a close relationship, but the twins were the little princes

903
00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:13.119
of the family. Their mother doated on them, especially Chris.

904
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:17.320
The twins did everything together when they were young. In school,

905
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.679
their teacher noticed that they always answered test questions the same,

906
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:24.039
thinking that the twins were cheating. They were separated, but

907
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:27.239
they still answered the same. One time, when they were

908
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:29.960
nine or ten, they went shopping separately but came home

909
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:31.079
with the same shirts.

910
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.000
Twins are fascinating to me the same.

911
00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:37.000
Yeah, I love the stories of like twins that got

912
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:39.280
separated at birth and yet still end up like.

913
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:43.639
That's a psychologist stream, you know that. Yeah, very interesting,

914
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:44.480
really interesting.

915
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:48.360
They always wanted to be together. They had always played

916
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:51.719
on the same sports teams, attended the same university, earned

917
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:55.199
the same degree, and were pe teachers at the same school.

918
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:58.559
They were neighbors. They built houses in Bayview, only two

919
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:02.199
hundred meters from each other. They both owned Dalmatians from

920
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:05.360
the same litter, and even drove the same make, model,

921
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.039
and color car. Wow. They injured the same knee around

922
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:12.960
the same time and both required surgery. Paul was the

923
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.480
dominant brother. He was smarter and more in control than Chris.

924
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:19.840
He was often the mastermind and Chris followed his lead.

925
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.599
Paul was more extroverted than Chris and often spoke for

926
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:26.840
both of them. They were fiercely loyal to each other.

927
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.679
Friends referred to them as cranky Chris and passive Paul.

928
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.880
The twins were off putting for many even as adults.

929
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:38.079
They dressed alike down to their shoes and socks. They'd

930
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:41.320
share a coke every day. They were most comfortable in

931
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:45.000
each other's company, to the point of excluding others. However,

932
00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:47.800
because of their good looks and athletic prowess. People were

933
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:49.079
drawn to them.

934
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.159
I will post tons of pictures, but they were exceptionally

935
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:56.800
good looking, and looking at them today, he might be like, oh,

936
00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:58.440
you know, they look like they're from the night. I

937
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:00.960
mean it's in the nineteen seven, he's in nineteen eighty,

938
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:03.920
so from you look at that from that lens. Alleged.

939
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.719
As we post pictures, people just leave the funniest comments, right.

940
00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:09.719
But they were very good looking men, okay.

941
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.119
The brothers worked a variety of odd jobs along with

942
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:17.000
teaching and coaching. They modeled, taught tennis and aerobics, worked

943
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:20.599
as lifeguards and garbage men. Side by side. They had

944
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:23.440
a bank account they called the Twinies account, where they

945
00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.559
deposited their extra money, funneling it from their wives. Lynn

946
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:31.000
was not given access to their joint bank account. Chris

947
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:33.679
did not like her to have or spend money. Usually

948
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:36.719
she only had a few dollars. She did open her

949
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:40.920
own bank account in the months before her disappearance. Barbara Cruz,

950
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.679
who managed the childcare center where Lynn worked, said that

951
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:45.960
Lynn had asked her if she could forward her bank

952
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:49.079
statements to her work address. She didn't give a reason,

953
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.280
but Barbara knew that it must have something to do

954
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.960
with Chris's controlling ways. Lynn was likely in the dark

955
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:58.480
about Chris's behavior with the students. After he had gone

956
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:01.039
swimming with some of his students at a private pool,

957
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:05.119
a neighbor complained to the principle. When the principal questioned Chris,

958
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:08.760
he denied everything. Lynn went to bat for her husband.

959
00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:12.559
She told the principal, quote, I trust my husband implicitly.

960
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.559
Our marriage is strong. There's no way he'd do anything

961
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:18.480
like that unquote. So the complaints were just that it

962
00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:21.519
was inappropriate for him to be swimming with his students

963
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:22.400
at a private pool.

964
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.519
Yeah, but I think some of them probably were swimming

965
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:29.119
swimming naked, and I believe that there may have been

966
00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:30.719
alcohol involved too.

967
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:34.639
Okay. The brothers had so much in common. In fact,

968
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:38.480
they were both adulterous pedophiles who groomed their high school students.

969
00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:41.559
Paul taught at Forest High School, not far from Cromer

970
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.719
High where Chris taught. Paul was also in a grooming

971
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:48.400
relationship with a student. The brothers talked about which girls

972
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:51.599
they found the most attractive and wanted to target. When

973
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:54.239
Chris and Paul were sent to teacher training for a week,

974
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:57.280
Chris took Joanne, and Paul took the student he was

975
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:00.760
involved with. For legal reasons, she has known as Alice

976
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:04.639
in court documents. Alice thought she was in love with Paul,

977
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.519
and he told her he loved her too. She was

978
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:10.679
only fifteen and a half when the abusive relationship began.

979
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:13.960
Paul controlled her and forced her to have sex with

980
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:17.920
other teachers and football players. Oh my god. On the

981
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:21.239
twins' birthday, he made Alice have sex with Chris as

982
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.920
his birthday gift. Sometimes both Chris and Paul had sex

983
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.039
with her at the same time. Horn's yeah, it's this

984
00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.679
is shocking. Paul would write her notes to excuse her

985
00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:36.639
from class to have sex, she told police years later. Quote,

986
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:39.079
Paul would organize for me to go to my place,

987
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.960
which was close by, and he would organize with those

988
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:45.000
teachers to come to my place at that time of day.

989
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:48.199
My parents were not home. When those teachers arrived, I

990
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.440
would perform for them. I consented only because I was

991
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.719
told by Paul that there was nothing wrong with what

992
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:56.760
I was doing. And Paul had told me frequently that

993
00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:59.039
he was in love with me, and I believed him.

994
00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:03.280
Unquote one time, Alice was waiting at home alone for

995
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:06.519
a carpet cleaner. Paul told her to strip in front

996
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:09.320
of the man and perform oral sex on him. She

997
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:12.679
complied she did whatever Paul asked of her, to her

998
00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:16.199
own peril. That poor girl, the poor old I know,

999
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:20.960
it's very disturbing. As many as six teachers are believed

1000
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.519
to have been involved in the sexual abuse scandal with

1001
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:27.119
the young students. On a weeknight after a football game,

1002
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:30.159
Paul asked Alice to meet him in the gym. When

1003
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:33.599
she arrived, ten men were there. Paul told her to

1004
00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:36.880
strip and have oral or vaginal sex with all of them.

1005
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.679
Paul's darkest fantasy was that he and Chris would be

1006
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:44.320
inside her at the same time, which she said happened once.

1007
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:48.960
Paul abused Alice for years, even beyond her school years.

1008
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:51.960
Joanne once asked her if she would join her and

1009
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.719
Chris for a threesome for his birthday. And all these

1010
00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:00.840
other men early going along with this too. That's also again, Yeah.

1011
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:03.800
It's beyond sick. And these poor women like they're you know,

1012
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:06.440
grown women now and this has stayed with them.

1013
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.400
Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Here's an old friend talking about

1014
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.960
an incident that essentially ended his relationship with the twins.

1015
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:16.800
I used to have a hit of tennis with Chris

1016
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:21.480
and Paul Dawson. There was a very significant story. We'd

1017
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:26.159
been again playing tennis and we'd finished and Chris approached

1018
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:30.440
me and said to me, Paul and I were thinking

1019
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:32.840
of getting eight guys together and having a gang bang.

1020
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:34.719
Would you be interested?

1021
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:40.400
I was.

1022
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:45.280
What the words I would use would be shocked and astounded.

1023
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:51.320
I politely said no, and that was about the last

1024
00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:52.840
time I ever saw them.

1025
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:54.800
We'll be back after a break.

1026
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:05.360
A former student from Kromer High said quote, I knew

1027
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:07.440
it was going on, and many other people knew it

1028
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:10.559
was going on. Not just with Chris Dawson and Joan Carlson,

1029
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:13.039
it was going on with other teachers and students at

1030
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:15.599
the school. The culture at the school was such that

1031
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.480
there was a group of men, male teachers in their

1032
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.000
twenties and thirties who preyed on young girls at the

1033
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:25.639
school fifteen sixteen seventeen year old girls, usually not the

1034
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:28.800
year twelves. They were a little bit too old, and

1035
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.239
you would see them talking all the time when they

1036
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.519
were at sporting trips or school trips. For whatever reason,

1037
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:37.159
they would be in the teacher's cars. They would be

1038
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:40.599
babysitting for the teachers. I think Lynn's family deserves to

1039
00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:43.280
know what happened to her, In particular, her two daughters

1040
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:46.400
need to know. He needs to be exposed. There's been

1041
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:49.039
too many people not wanting to talk about it because

1042
00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:52.039
it's not the dumb thing. If it had been discussed

1043
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.599
more openly from the outset, lives wouldn't have been ruined

1044
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:59.000
and people would have answers to those questions now. In fact,

1045
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.519
the impacts of those relationships we're talking about thirty five

1046
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.800
years ago still exist and those girls are really quite damaged.

1047
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.559
And in some cases the teachers left their wives and

1048
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:13.360
the first family of children and took off with the

1049
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:15.320
younger girls when they finished school.

1050
00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:18.239
It's so crazy that like this was a whole thing

1051
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:20.599
in the school with so many people involved.

1052
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:22.400
I don't think it was just that school. I think

1053
00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:26.199
was neighboring schools too. After that woman came forward, it

1054
00:55:26.239 --> 00:55:30.000
gave other former students who had been sexually exploited courage

1055
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:33.480
to tell their stories too. This next bit is going

1056
00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:37.599
to blow your mind. Former deputy headmaster from Cromer High,

1057
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:41.280
Hilton Mace, told Headley Thomas quote, there had been quite

1058
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:43.400
a few people saying to me that Paul and Chris

1059
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:47.599
Dawson both had bad reputations with schoolgirls. As a deputy

1060
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:50.239
of a school of thirteen hundred kids, you're not in

1061
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:52.960
a position to do any detective work on finding out

1062
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:56.039
what exactly is going on. I think Chris Dawson was

1063
00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:58.960
very clever and covering up what he could, and I think,

1064
00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:02.880
well Joanne probably the same, and she was probably infatuated

1065
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:06.280
with him. When asked about the students drinking with the teachers,

1066
00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:08.880
he said, quote, I was told about it, But what

1067
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:11.199
can I do. I can't tell a grown up man

1068
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:12.880
not to go and have a drink in a pub.

1069
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:15.840
I mean, your civil liberties are coming into it at

1070
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.599
a certain point. And if you're involved in a school,

1071
00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:21.119
you're so busy you've got no chance of chasing up

1072
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:24.119
every member of staff who might be drinking or having

1073
00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:27.199
some sort of school liaison with a student. So you know,

1074
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:29.559
it's easy to sit on the sidelines and say, oh,

1075
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:33.159
this should have been done, it shouldn't be allowed. God

1076
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:36.519
you believe that response. I'm just in charge of the school.

1077
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:38.159
I can't be expected to know.

1078
00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:43.000
To my job. Oh my gosh, I'm not defending him,

1079
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:44.880
but I believe at the point of this interview he

1080
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:46.119
is into his nineties.

1081
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.599
So okay, I don't know if Wow.

1082
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:51.679
That deserves him getting grace or not, but yeah, that

1083
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:55.000
blew my mind. Chris was transferred to another school. A

1084
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:58.000
female pee teacher took his place, which we talked about

1085
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:01.079
a little earlier. So you might be asking yourself why

1086
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:03.119
didn't Lynn's family report her missing?

1087
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:05.119
I was asking myself that.

1088
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:07.800
In fact, Lynn's sister Pat said that Chris was a

1089
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:10.920
beloved member of their family. They thought he was a

1090
00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:13.719
good husband and father and wouldn't do anything that ever

1091
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:17.079
harm Lynn. She said quote, if we had thought Chris

1092
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:19.519
had done something, then there was no way Lynn was

1093
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.519
coming back. If she had left, we still had hope

1094
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:25.360
that she would come back. What else were we to believe?

1095
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:29.639
Your emotions sort of take over your rational thoughts. Mom

1096
00:57:29.719 --> 00:57:31.719
just always wanted lind to come back, and we thought

1097
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.679
that perhaps she had a mental breakdown. That was the

1098
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:37.679
only possibility we thought could explain why she would leave

1099
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:41.000
all the things she loved so much. She was really affectionate,

1100
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:45.320
so warm, overly generous. She was funny and a little cheeky.

1101
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:47.920
I think Chris was the center of her world.

1102
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:51.280
I think in hindsight, it's always easier in hindsight to

1103
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:52.840
look at these things and say, oh, they should have

1104
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:55.079
known that something was up. But I just think it's

1105
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:59.199
so hard to imagine, you know that if you know somebody,

1106
00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:02.559
you know them all, why would they harm our sister

1107
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:03.360
or our daughter.

1108
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:05.199
You know, the world was a very different place in

1109
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.760
nineteen eighty two than it is today. Yeah, if a

1110
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:11.840
woman goes missing today, every finger is pointing at their

1111
00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:15.840
significant other. Right, Lynn's father, Lynn was more willing to

1112
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:19.000
make a bold prediction. He said, the bastard has done

1113
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:22.840
her in. Lynn's brother, Greg Simms, a twenty seven year

1114
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:25.960
veteran of the police force, retired due to anxiety and

1115
00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:29.679
depression in part because of Lynn's disappearance. He felt that

1116
00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:33.039
he instinctively should have known that there was trouble in

1117
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:36.360
Lynn's marriage and that Chris had murdered Lynn. If he

1118
00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:40.599
had intervened, maybe the outcome would be different. Greg isn't

1119
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:43.840
the only person plagued with guilt. The Dawson's neighbor and

1120
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:47.000
Lynn's good friend, Julie Andrew. When asked by Headley Thomas

1121
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:50.239
why she hadn't gone to the police, said, quote, women

1122
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.480
are very different now and the knowledge that I've gained

1123
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:55.320
as a mature woman, an older woman, I'm a very

1124
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.360
different person to the one I was back then. Back then,

1125
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.480
you believe your police, and you did. If your doctor

1126
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:04.239
told you something, you did what you were told. They

1127
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:07.360
know they can be trusted. So if police aren't going

1128
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:09.800
to do anything, then they must know something more than

1129
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.440
I know. But I never expected to see her again.

1130
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:15.480
I just knew she'd been killed. I just want justice

1131
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:17.639
for her and her family, and I would love for

1132
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:20.719
her little girls to know she didn't leave them. She

1133
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:23.679
never walked away from them. She was taken from them

1134
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.360
by the person who was supposed to protect her. Greg

1135
00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:30.679
recalled seeing bruises on Lynde's arms and legs frequently, as

1136
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:33.599
did several friends. Her tennis friends were called seeing an

1137
00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:36.360
ugly purple bruise as big as a grapefruit on her thigh.

1138
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:40.440
A babysitter, natcho Anne, walked in on a fight between

1139
00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:42.719
Lin and Chris over a dirty glass in the kitchen.

1140
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:46.320
Chris liked to keep the house meticulously clean. He was

1141
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:49.840
fastidious about his appearance self image and his home. The

1142
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:53.079
babysitter walked in on Chris violently snapping a dish towelt

1143
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:56.920
Lynne while she struggled to hide her tears. A seamstress

1144
00:59:56.960 --> 00:59:59.119
who had been making a blouse for Lynne for Helena's

1145
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:03.119
surprise birthday, contacted police after she'd seen Lynn on TV.

1146
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.320
When Lynn tried on the blouse for a fitting, she

1147
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:09.920
said that she was covered in bruises. She asked Lynne, quote,

1148
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:12.039
what in the hell have you been doing to yourself?

1149
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:15.039
Lynn said, Oh, it's a long story. I'm not in

1150
01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.239
a very happy marriage. I'm married to a very violent man,

1151
01:00:18.280 --> 01:00:21.199
and he's done other things to me as well. A

1152
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.119
neighbor recalled seeing Chris hitting Lynn as she held on

1153
01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:27.280
to one of her young daughters, Anna A. Grantham, a

1154
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:29.760
friend of Lynn's from the childcare center where she worked,

1155
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:34.840
recalled a particularly harrowing story about Chris's violent tendencies. Lynde

1156
01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:37.880
told her that Chris can be quite nasty. She told

1157
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:39.960
her about a time when he grabbed her hair and

1158
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:42.280
pushed her face into the moat around the newly built

1159
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:46.760
swimming pool. Lynde said she couldn't breathe. After Lynde disappeared.

1160
01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:49.880
Chris tried to avoid confrontations with the Simms family. He

1161
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.400
occasionally dropped his daughters off to see their grandparents. Their

1162
01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:56.559
desire to continue the relationship with Chanel and Sharon likely

1163
01:00:56.599 --> 01:00:59.760
played a part and them not questioning Chris more, but

1164
01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:04.199
as time passed, the visits decrease, until Chris moved away.

1165
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:08.320
A year after Lynde's disappearance, Chris dropped off ten bags

1166
01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:11.360
filled with Lynde's possessions at her parents' house. It took

1167
01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:13.880
two years for Helena to find the courage to sort

1168
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:16.639
through the bags. Chris claimed that the last time that

1169
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.480
he'd seen Lynn, she'd been wearing a pair of pink shorts,

1170
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.039
but they were among the things in the bags, as

1171
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:26.079
were her contact lenses, ID cards, and her nursing credentials

1172
01:01:26.360 --> 01:01:28.400
that she'd need in order to get a new job.

1173
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:31.599
There wore a handful of alleged sightings of Lynn over

1174
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:34.840
the years on the Central Coast in New Zealand, at

1175
01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:38.199
a farmer's market, a bus stop, and even once on TV.

1176
01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:41.280
And then there were the four phone calls from Lynn

1177
01:01:41.320 --> 01:01:44.119
that Chris had claimed that he had received. None of

1178
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:48.039
these sightings or phone calls were credible or verifiable. Lynn

1179
01:01:48.159 --> 01:01:50.360
was a good person. She was warm and kind and

1180
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:54.119
loved with her whole heart. She would not, under any circumstance,

1181
01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:57.119
put her friend's family and beloved daughters through the worry

1182
01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:00.920
of disappearing to join a religious cult. And if for

1183
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.880
no other reason, Lynn would not have left her two

1184
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.880
daughters with the husband that was abusing her.

1185
01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:08.559
Right, she would want to protect them.

1186
01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:11.800
Yeah, although there's no evidence that he ever abused the children.

1187
01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:14.920
But still, you're right, she would not. She wouldn't want

1188
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:18.320
to leave them in that situation. It seems so obvious

1189
01:02:18.360 --> 01:02:22.960
to me that he did something to her. On January fifteenth,

1190
01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:27.280
nineteen eighty four, Chris thirty six and Joanne nineteen were married.

1191
01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.880
He had quietly divorced Lynn in June nineteen eighty three

1192
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:35.440
after her disappearance, citing abandonment, and won all of her assets,

1193
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:39.480
despite owing over eight thousand dollars to Helena and Len Simms,

1194
01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:43.239
money they would never see again. The wedding was a

1195
01:02:43.239 --> 01:02:47.760
spartan affair, devoid of flowers or traditional wedding decor. Joanne

1196
01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:51.000
looked like a child standing next to Chris. Paul and

1197
01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:54.519
his wife Marilyn were their witnesses. Hours before the wedding,

1198
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:56.960
Chris and Paul had sex with Joanne together.

1199
01:02:57.639 --> 01:02:59.360
Is that not the weirdest thing?

1200
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.480
I know, the whole Yeah, this whole thing is the

1201
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:06.119
weirdest thing. And these yeah, it's disgusting. Once Joanne told

1202
01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:08.800
Chris that she didn't think that Paul liked her anymore,

1203
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:11.480
he suggested that the two of them have sex together.

1204
01:03:11.920 --> 01:03:14.639
But when Chris walked in on Joanne and Paul together

1205
01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:17.960
in bed, he wasn't happy and it never happened again.

1206
01:03:19.159 --> 01:03:22.519
This whole thing is like just leaving me speechless, Like

1207
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:24.079
I just I don't have the world.

1208
01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:29.639
We're not expressing the right level of outrage and disbelief.

1209
01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:32.400
I know, shocking, it really is. I mean, it's bad

1210
01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:35.440
enough for two men to treat a girl like this,

1211
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:37.719
but the fact that they're twins just makes it so

1212
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.480
much ickier. The whole thing is just really.

1213
01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:43.559
Making me feel like it's really hard to around.

1214
01:03:44.519 --> 01:03:47.880
Chris decided to move his family to Queensland's Gold Coast

1215
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:50.079
at the end of nineteen eighty four, near a theme

1216
01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:54.280
park called dream World. Of course, Marilyn and Paul moved too.

1217
01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.400
The brothers had sold their homes in Bayview for a

1218
01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:00.559
large profit they had been paid for in full. The

1219
01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:03.519
house on Gilwinga Drive to day is valued at four

1220
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:07.320
million Australian dollars or two and a half million US dollars.

1221
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:10.960
They once again built large homes in a rural area

1222
01:04:11.039 --> 01:04:14.800
five hundred meters apart, complete with swimming pools and tennis courts.

1223
01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:19.320
Joanne soon became pregnant and they added another daughter, Kristin,

1224
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.400
to their family. Kristin was born on January eighth, nineteen

1225
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.639
eighty five, a month early three years to the day

1226
01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:30.480
after Lynne had disappeared. Now the brothers shared one more

1227
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:34.400
thing in common. They both had three daughters. Joanne admits

1228
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:36.840
that she struggled to treat the older two girls as

1229
01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:40.480
her own, which caused constant stress in the marriage. Chris

1230
01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:42.679
wanted her to be a doting mother like Lynn had

1231
01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.840
been to the girls. He insisted the girls be treated

1232
01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:50.280
like princesses. Joanne resented looking after Chanel and Sharon and

1233
01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:54.280
frequently asked Chris why Lynn couldn't come get them. After

1234
01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:57.239
Kristin was born, she told Chanel and Sharon to stop

1235
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:01.239
calling her mom. She kept Kristin from her sisters. They

1236
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:04.440
weren't allowed to even touch her. Joanne didn't want to

1237
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:07.199
mother the older girls, but adored her own baby and

1238
01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:10.840
doated on her. Chris became jealous of the baby and

1239
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:13.920
missed spending time alone with Joanne.

1240
01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:17.280
So this is where like, I have empathy for Joanne

1241
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:20.360
because I think she was groomed and you know, she'd

1242
01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:23.039
had a hard childhood. But the fact that she wasn't

1243
01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:25.559
kind to these two little girls really breaks my heart.

1244
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:27.880
They were really struggling.

1245
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:30.079
Well, yeah, I'm sure they were. It's just it's so

1246
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.280
sad for those those girls. What they what they want?

1247
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:35.320
Alan Sharon. Yeah.

1248
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:39.800
The brothers again got work as physical education teachers. Ironically,

1249
01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:42.880
Chris worked at Keebra Park High where Hedley Thomas had

1250
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:46.840
graduated just weeks before. Chris kept his nose down and

1251
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:49.559
tried to stay under the radar. He didn't get into

1252
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:51.960
any trouble with students while there that we know of.

1253
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:56.079
Soon he transferred to another school, Kumba High, to be

1254
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:59.800
with Paul. Years later, Joanne referred to the new house

1255
01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:03.519
as the compound. She didn't have much freedom. She felt

1256
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:07.239
like a prisoner, with a two meter fence surrounding the property.

1257
01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:10.239
Two meters is around two yards do you know how

1258
01:06:10.239 --> 01:06:13.679
I know that. I think it was schoolhouse rock. There

1259
01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:16.000
was a song, the meter, The meter a little more

1260
01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:16.679
than a yard.

1261
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:19.760
But you are implying that I know how much a

1262
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:20.280
yard is.

1263
01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:22.360
Everyone knows how much a yard is.

1264
01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:25.920
Well, I don't. If I stop and think about it,

1265
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:28.079
I think a yard is three feet, right, yeah, so

1266
01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:29.920
two yards is six feet.

1267
01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:32.679
I'm sorry if I implied that people who don't know

1268
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:35.519
how much a yard is are not smart. Maybe some

1269
01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:37.320
people don't, but I just thought people knew that.

1270
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:40.239
I don't think that has anything to do with intelligence, in.

1271
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:43.360
My opinion, And actually none of this has anything.

1272
01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:45.519
You're right, like a yard stick, like I can picture

1273
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:47.559
a yard stick. You were probably beaten with a yard

1274
01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:49.880
stick in school. Yes, so that's probably how you were

1275
01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:52.880
so intimately familiar with the yardstick regularly.

1276
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.480
In any case, there was a fence surrounding the property

1277
01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:58.840
that was about six feet high. Joanne said for years,

1278
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:01.719
Paul's wife Marilyn was the only person she was allowed

1279
01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:05.760
to socialize with. Chris was even more controlling with Joanne

1280
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:09.079
than he'd been with Lynn. She convinced Chris to allow

1281
01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:12.719
her to join a playgroup with Kristin. She became friendly

1282
01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:15.039
with the other young mothers and realized that they were

1283
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:19.800
carefree and joyful. Their husbands weren't controlling like Chris. One

1284
01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:22.960
of Joanne's friends from the time recalled to Headley Thomas

1285
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:26.280
that Joanne was naive about the world and seemed afraid

1286
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.119
of Chris. They had a peculiar sex life where he

1287
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:32.760
would demand she dress as a schoolgirl. He never wanted

1288
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:35.719
her to be sexy. It was always about her remaining young.

1289
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:37.800
He didn't want her to mature.

1290
01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:39.440
That's pretty disturbing, isn't it.

1291
01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:41.039
It's very disturbing. I'm sure that's all.

1292
01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.000
You just asked me a question, and I, in case

1293
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:46.800
our listeners are at all confused, I talk about Headley

1294
01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:50.119
Thomas at the very beginning of this episode. But in

1295
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:53.199
case you have forgotten, Headley Thomas is the creator of

1296
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:59.159
the Teacher's Pet podcast who researched this case exhaustively, and

1297
01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:01.000
we will talk about me more in part two.

1298
01:08:02.119 --> 01:08:04.159
When a friend of Joanne's came to the house for

1299
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:07.000
a playdate, she said that Chris was hovering like a

1300
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:11.159
dark menace over everything Joanne did, watching her checking that

1301
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:15.280
she was doing everything correctly. He openly resented her friends

1302
01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:18.479
being in the house. The woman said, quote, he had

1303
01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:21.520
control entirely over what she did. He didn't want her

1304
01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:24.880
to grow up. We just felt so worldly compared with her.

1305
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:27.840
She just seemed like a kid. He was critical of

1306
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:32.039
her in our presence, belittling her, which was uncomfortable. Everyone

1307
01:08:32.079 --> 01:08:35.479
including the children, seemed to be walking on eggshells. She

1308
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:37.600
said she had to do everything that was asked of

1309
01:08:37.640 --> 01:08:40.359
her or there was trouble in the house. She talked

1310
01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:43.640
of Chris having a voracious sexual appetite and she could

1311
01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:47.000
not say no to him. Unquote. It's just I think

1312
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.479
with her upbring she had a really bad upbringing too

1313
01:08:49.520 --> 01:08:51.880
with her parents, so she just didn't seems like she

1314
01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:55.279
didn't know any better, that there was a different way

1315
01:08:55.319 --> 01:08:57.000
to live, or that you didn't.

1316
01:08:56.800 --> 01:08:59.039
Have to and likely because of all the trauma that

1317
01:08:59.119 --> 01:09:01.720
she had in her life, she he had arrested development right.

1318
01:09:02.439 --> 01:09:05.439
Each year, when Joanne and Chris returned to visit family

1319
01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:08.279
in Bayview, he would run or drive back to the

1320
01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:11.479
old house on Gilwinga Drive. He talked with his old

1321
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:14.680
neighbor and asked what renovations they'd been doing at the house.

1322
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:17.920
The house had changed hands once more since he had

1323
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:20.720
initially sold it. He asked the new homeowner, who was

1324
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:24.319
updating the landscaping, quote, where are you digging? He had

1325
01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:26.680
a keen interest as to the goings on at his

1326
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:27.319
old home.

1327
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:29.520
Do you think that's weird that he said, where are

1328
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:30.039
you digging?

1329
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:30.439
Yeah?

1330
01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:34.000
That seems a little suspicious to me. Joanne had witnessed

1331
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:38.359
firsthand Chris berating Lynn and being violent towards her. He'd

1332
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:41.920
sing songs about how she was ugly, fat, and undesirable.

1333
01:09:42.560 --> 01:09:45.079
Now Chris began doing the same thing to her. What

1334
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.279
a shock. She decided to join a cricket team with

1335
01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:51.399
her friends from the playgroup. The only way Chris would

1336
01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:53.079
let her out of the house or buy her the

1337
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:57.479
equipment she needed was to bargain with sexual favors. One night,

1338
01:09:57.560 --> 01:10:00.399
she went to a lingerie party with a friend. When

1339
01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:03.680
she returned home with new g string underwear, Chris was

1340
01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:06.399
angry and told her she could only wear it for him.

1341
01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:09.600
She brazenly told him that she'd wear it when she liked.

1342
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:12.319
He lunged at her angrily and choked her.

1343
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:15.800
Sue Strath was a friend of Lyne's. They'd work together

1344
01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:20.279
at the childcare center. Sue adored Lynn. After she disappeared.

1345
01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:23.560
Sue was befuddled as to why there wasn't a bigger

1346
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:24.600
police investigation.

1347
01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:27.560
I'm befuddled by that too, right, Why.

1348
01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:30.119
Hadn't the police come to interview her and her co workers.

1349
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:34.279
She knew things about the Dawson's marriage, dark things that

1350
01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:38.039
she thought the police should know. It made absolutely no

1351
01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:41.159
sense to Sue that Lynn would willingly leave her life behind.

1352
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:44.479
Sue and many of Lynn's other co workers assumed that

1353
01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:48.399
her family had talked to the police to hasten an investigation.

1354
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.279
Graglin's brother was a police officer, and she thought that

1355
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:55.800
he'd make sure that her case was handled properly. Three

1356
01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:58.960
years later, Lynn was still on Sue's mind. She missed

1357
01:10:58.960 --> 01:11:02.520
her friend and needed to do something. In February nineteen

1358
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:05.800
eighty five, she circumvented the police and instead contacted the

1359
01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:09.520
Ombudsman and filed a complaint that the police had never

1360
01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:14.720
properly investigated Lynde's disappearance. In her letter, Sue, in great detail,

1361
01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:18.640
over three pages, outlined the suspicious nature of Lynde's disappearance,

1362
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:22.399
as well as the inappropriate relationship between a teacher and student.

1363
01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:26.399
In Australia, the Office of the Commonwealth Ombudsman is an

1364
01:11:26.439 --> 01:11:30.800
independent body that investigates complaints and promotes best practices to

1365
01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:35.600
improve public administration. They were powerful and well funded. If

1366
01:11:35.640 --> 01:11:39.199
a complaint is filed, it must be addressed. Through his

1367
01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:42.800
dogged persistence, along with luck and a helpful government employee,

1368
01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:45.239
Headley Thomas was able to get a copy of the

1369
01:11:45.319 --> 01:11:48.800
letter Sue wrote, which proved very helpful in his investigation.

1370
01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:52.079
A piece of the puzzle that the police had missed.

1371
01:11:52.840 --> 01:11:54.520
Kind of long, but I'm going to read you the letter,

1372
01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:57.600
Dear sir, in his three years since my friend Lynd

1373
01:11:57.640 --> 01:12:00.640
Dawson of Bayview Heights was reported as a misas person

1374
01:12:01.079 --> 01:12:04.319
by her husband, Chris Dawson. Lynn was a devoted mother

1375
01:12:04.359 --> 01:12:06.960
of two small children. I worked with her at the

1376
01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.720
Warrywood Children's Center. It was known by all her workmates

1377
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.279
that she was having marital problems. We had all heard

1378
01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:16.000
about Chris's affair with a then sixteen year old student

1379
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:18.039
of his who was staying at the time with the

1380
01:12:18.119 --> 01:12:22.359
Dawson family. Lynn, although she probably suspected, didn't want to

1381
01:12:22.399 --> 01:12:25.920
believe this of her husband, whom she idolized. She accepted

1382
01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:28.399
her marriage was shaky and on the Friday before she

1383
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:30.760
was last seen, she and her husband went to a

1384
01:12:30.760 --> 01:12:34.319
marriage psychologist. She and Chris came back to work excited

1385
01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:38.399
about better understanding and working out problems together. The next

1386
01:12:38.479 --> 01:12:41.640
day what happened. Chris has told another friend of mine

1387
01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:43.960
that Lynne found he and his girlfriend in bed and

1388
01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:47.840
just freaked. Sure. I can understand that, but I don't

1389
01:12:47.840 --> 01:12:50.279
believe she would walk out on her girls and leave

1390
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:53.520
them for another woman to raise. She loved her home

1391
01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:57.279
and was a very materialistic person. Why would she walk

1392
01:12:57.319 --> 01:12:59.119
out on a home worth over a quarter of a

1393
01:12:59.159 --> 01:13:02.600
million dollars. Chris reported she left to join a religious

1394
01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:04.960
group and is believed to be living on the North Coast.

1395
01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:07.520
As far as I know, she had no religious beliefs

1396
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:10.840
at all and didn't attend church. A person cannot become

1397
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:14.319
religious overnight, and most religious groups are very family oriented,

1398
01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:17.439
so a woman with children would be acceptable rather than

1399
01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:20.880
a woman without. Her husband was so sure she would

1400
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:23.880
not return. His girlfriend was moved in the following week.

1401
01:13:24.439 --> 01:13:27.439
He has now married his schoolgirl lover, has a beautiful

1402
01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:32.039
house and established family. Everything seems too easy. He got

1403
01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:35.199
exactly what he wanted and his wife, who wasn't up

1404
01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:37.439
to standard has vanished from the face of the earth,

1405
01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:41.600
having no further contact with any family or friends. Chris

1406
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:43.720
has said he received a phone call, but I put

1407
01:13:43.800 --> 01:13:47.039
this down to the extended story. It doesn't seem possible

1408
01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:50.319
that a person can be swept under the rug and forgotten.

1409
01:13:50.680 --> 01:13:52.520
I would like to know what the police have done

1410
01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:55.920
in this matter. Why weren't her workmates interviewed as to

1411
01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:59.039
her last twenty four hours? Why were her husband's words

1412
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:02.920
used as soul evidence as to her whereabouts? It appears

1413
01:14:02.920 --> 01:14:05.079
to me the police have taken the view that Lynn

1414
01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.199
left her husband, family and work friends of her own

1415
01:14:08.279 --> 01:14:12.159
free will. I wonder if this is true. I'm concerned

1416
01:14:12.199 --> 01:14:14.079
as I was one of the last to see her

1417
01:14:14.119 --> 01:14:17.119
on the Friday, but was never questioned by the police.

1418
01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:20.159
Can a person just disappear and be accepted because she

1419
01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.720
is over sixteen years, that she do so willingly when

1420
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:26.640
we only have her husband's word that this is what happened.

1421
01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:29.119
Could you please throw a little bit of light on

1422
01:14:29.159 --> 01:14:32.399
this mystery. I've seen her on the missing person posters

1423
01:14:32.680 --> 01:14:36.760
and just cannot accept the explanation of her whereabouts. Yours faithfully,

1424
01:14:37.119 --> 01:14:38.680
Susan Browitt.

1425
01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:43.199
Well Hella Lujah Susan like, I'm thanks thanks to someone finally,

1426
01:14:43.319 --> 01:14:46.560
like you know, pushing on this and putting pressure on

1427
01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:47.119
someone to.

1428
01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:48.680
Do something really important. Letter.

1429
01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:49.199
Yeah.

1430
01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:52.880
Sue's claim was investigated by reaching out to the police,

1431
01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:56.600
who Chris had filed Lynn's missing person's report with. In

1432
01:14:56.640 --> 01:15:00.600
response to the Ahmbudsman's inquiry, an inspector puts the onus

1433
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:05.279
on Lynn's family, deciding that Helena had never characterized Lynn's

1434
01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:09.560
disappearance as suspicious or fingered Chris as a suspect. The

1435
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:12.239
report said that Greg Simms, Lynn's brother, who was a

1436
01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:16.439
police officer, had access to resources, and he failed to

1437
01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:20.680
use them or wring the alarm. The response angered Greg.

1438
01:15:20.800 --> 01:15:24.239
He had in fact tried to spur the investigation along,

1439
01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:27.760
but was told that only Chris, as Lynn's next of kin,

1440
01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:29.880
would be given any information.

1441
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:30.399
AH.

1442
01:15:30.479 --> 01:15:32.000
This is so frustrating.

1443
01:15:32.920 --> 01:15:35.760
Journalist Wendy Page, who covered Lynn's case for more than

1444
01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:39.600
twenty years, said quote, looking back, that is a thing

1445
01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:43.479
that really distresses me that Lynn's disappearance was never properly

1446
01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:47.239
investigated and that the police didn't take it seriously. If

1447
01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:50.680
only they had properly investigated at the time, they could

1448
01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:53.920
have found telephone records or bank card records. They would

1449
01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:57.079
have learned of Dawson's relationship with Joanne, and they might

1450
01:15:57.119 --> 01:16:01.119
have decided Lynn did not voluntarily disappear. There might have

1451
01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:04.239
been a different result back then. There were so many

1452
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:05.640
red flags in this story.

1453
01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:06.319
I'll say.

1454
01:16:07.159 --> 01:16:09.279
Barbara Cruz, a friend of Lin's and the owner of

1455
01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:11.960
the childcare center where Lynn worked as a nurse, believes

1456
01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:16.039
police were influenced because of Chris's local celebrity status and

1457
01:16:16.119 --> 01:16:19.279
they believed his story. Quote he had been a first

1458
01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:22.000
grade footballer, he was on television ads, he was a

1459
01:16:22.039 --> 01:16:25.279
teacher in the local community, and because of his athletic

1460
01:16:25.319 --> 01:16:29.479
ability or his football prowess, I feel that they believed him.

1461
01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:32.239
He got all of the money, whatever money they might

1462
01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:34.680
have had. He got the children, he got the house,

1463
01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:38.399
and he got the girlfriend. He didn't dip out any way,

1464
01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:41.479
shape or form, and it would appear that he did

1465
01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:47.159
it without anyone questioning him. Lynn's friend Anna Gratham, like Sue,

1466
01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:50.960
regrets not contacting the police sooner quote I wish I

1467
01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:53.800
could have done more. Why didn't we? How could we

1468
01:16:53.880 --> 01:16:56.640
just let it go like this? Years and years? I

1469
01:16:56.720 --> 01:16:59.840
do regret not doing something at the beginning. We all do.

1470
01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:03.520
Sue told Hedley Thomas that she wanted Chris to be

1471
01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:07.279
punished before he's dead. She said, quote, the police were like, oh,

1472
01:17:07.359 --> 01:17:10.680
the poor guy, his wife's left him. Like, come on,

1473
01:17:11.319 --> 01:17:15.000
why wasn't he ever prosecuted for having sex with underage girls?

1474
01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:18.039
He and his brother? Why did that never happen?

1475
01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:20.439
Good question, Sue.

1476
01:17:20.600 --> 01:17:22.520
Lynn, Sue, and the other women who worked at the

1477
01:17:22.600 --> 01:17:26.600
childcare center were close friends. Lynn confided in her coworkers

1478
01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:29.439
that she was worried about her marriage, and especially about

1479
01:17:29.520 --> 01:17:33.319
Joanne and Chris's relationship. Sue had encouraged Lynn to nip

1480
01:17:33.399 --> 01:17:35.840
that in the bud. She did not doubt that the

1481
01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:39.319
relationship had turned sexual, but Lynn wasn't ready to let

1482
01:17:39.319 --> 01:17:42.880
her mind go there. She adored her husband. It was

1483
01:17:42.920 --> 01:17:46.800
Sue's persistence that got Lynn's case looked at again. Damian

1484
01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:49.399
Lune was assigned to the case, and he was just

1485
01:17:49.520 --> 01:17:53.000
as persistent as Sue. We'll get to Damian Luhne in

1486
01:17:53.039 --> 01:17:53.960
the next episode.

1487
01:17:54.079 --> 01:17:57.960
Oh, I'm just glad somebody is finally taking a closer

1488
01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:00.520
look at this. I mean, how many years been three?

1489
01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:01.159
Three years?

1490
01:18:01.119 --> 01:18:03.439
Well this point, it's only three years, only three I mean,

1491
01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:04.439
hang onto your hat.

1492
01:18:04.560 --> 01:18:06.479
Oh, god oh boy.

1493
01:18:06.640 --> 01:18:10.079
Okay, that's where we're going to end part one. Come

1494
01:18:10.119 --> 01:18:11.239
back next time for part two.

1495
01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.800
I will what do you think so far? I'm just

1496
01:18:14.960 --> 01:18:19.479
I'm just so frustrated how many people did things that

1497
01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:24.000
were just bad in this story. I mean, there's obviously Chris,

1498
01:18:24.079 --> 01:18:26.000
who's a horrible person, and then it sounds like his

1499
01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:27.640
twin brothers a whole horrible person.

1500
01:18:27.680 --> 01:18:30.439
The problem is, though, yes, they are horrible people, and

1501
01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:33.760
they did horrible things to these lovely young girls and

1502
01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:38.960
to their wives, but people viewed them as yeah, they

1503
01:18:39.039 --> 01:18:41.479
viewed them. They put them on a pedestal, right, They

1504
01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:44.159
thought that they were nice guys. They thought that, you know,

1505
01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:48.119
they're athletes and they're good looking, and they were I

1506
01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:50.560
think nice to people on the service.

1507
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:52.159
So what I was going to go out and say, though,

1508
01:18:52.199 --> 01:18:54.920
is that all There's so many other people, like all

1509
01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:57.279
the people at the school that the headmaster at the

1510
01:18:57.319 --> 01:18:58.840
school that you were talking about, who was like, oh

1511
01:18:59.119 --> 01:19:02.119
what could I do? These people are all having relationships

1512
01:19:02.159 --> 01:19:05.800
and Chris, you know, having like ten guys come in

1513
01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:09.920
to have sex with these other schoolgirls. Yea, all these

1514
01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:13.279
guys that are going along with this and nobody reporting it,

1515
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:17.760
and the police not following up or taking any kind

1516
01:19:17.760 --> 01:19:20.760
of like proactive approach to this. And even I don't

1517
01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:23.840
want to like blame Lyn's family, but why weren't they

1518
01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:26.199
more aggressive about.

1519
01:19:26.319 --> 01:19:29.000
He cannot blame Lyn's family. They are lovely people.

1520
01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:32.239
I'm sure they have been a lot. I know that,

1521
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:35.359
but it's just frustrating that nobody, you know, seemed to

1522
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:38.920
be pushing any harder until this sue person.

1523
01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:42.159
Right, I mean again, it was nineteen yeah, nineteen eighties,

1524
01:19:42.199 --> 01:19:45.119
and it was a different time and women you know,

1525
01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:48.680
didn't get treated as well as they were treated that

1526
01:19:48.720 --> 01:19:51.479
great today, But it just wasn't as common for a

1527
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:54.000
man to just up and of course it happened. But

1528
01:19:54.960 --> 01:19:56.720
what do you think happened to Lynn?

1529
01:19:57.079 --> 01:19:59.720
Well, I mean I believe that he killed her, that

1530
01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:02.520
Chris killed her. It sounds to me like maybe he

1531
01:20:02.600 --> 01:20:04.800
drugged her because of the phone call that she had

1532
01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:07.680
with her mom that night where she was a little

1533
01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:12.600
tipsy or maybe puzzled suzzled exactly, So maybe he drugged

1534
01:20:12.600 --> 01:20:15.159
her and then you know, smothered her or something like that.

1535
01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:17.840
But it's you know, the only thing I can go

1536
01:20:17.920 --> 01:20:20.359
on is what you were talking about with him asking

1537
01:20:20.439 --> 01:20:23.840
the people who owned the house, that you know what

1538
01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:27.199
they were doing with their landscaping, that perhaps he buried

1539
01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:29.199
her in the yard somewhere. But yeah, you know, that's

1540
01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:30.720
all I can really speculate on.

1541
01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:32.520
Well, we will get to that next time.

1542
01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:35.079
I will look forward to finding out the truth. I

1543
01:20:35.159 --> 01:20:36.439
hope we get to find out the truth.

1544
01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:42.920
You are being spoilers. I am a I am a

1545
01:20:43.039 --> 01:20:45.239
two meter wall.

1546
01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:48.319
Yes, your your poker face is really impressive.

1547
01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:53.079
Were you ever a teacher's pet? Not in this way,

1548
01:20:53.199 --> 01:20:55.279
not in the not in the creepy chrystals way.

1549
01:20:55.600 --> 01:20:56.239
What you mean.

1550
01:20:57.760 --> 01:21:02.439
Yeah, no hesitation? Oh no, yeah, I mean I was

1551
01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:04.880
a good sting. I got one here on the line.

1552
01:21:05.039 --> 01:21:08.319
You know me, I'm a rule follower. I follow the rules.

1553
01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:10.159
I listen and I do what I'm doing.

1554
01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:11.199
A rule follower.

1555
01:21:11.239 --> 01:21:13.359
I'm totally you are a rule follower.

1556
01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:18.479
You were a manual reader, yeah, exactly when we were

1557
01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:20.279
first married. I don't think you do it as much,

1558
01:21:20.279 --> 01:21:21.840
but I used to drive me crazy. We'd get like

1559
01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:24.159
a a DVD player and you'd be like, well, let

1560
01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:25.319
me read the instructions first.

1561
01:21:25.319 --> 01:21:30.159
Of you just it was they were more complicated than that.

1562
01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:34.399
Fact used to try me nuts that you would just

1563
01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:34.960
hap hazard.

1564
01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:37.319
Leana, just start plug in a DVD player.

1565
01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:40.079
Who knows what kind of damage could be done by

1566
01:21:40.119 --> 01:21:42.920
doing that without reading the manual. First, you've come a

1567
01:21:42.960 --> 01:21:46.600
long way, Baby's still I still kind of read manuals,

1568
01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:48.359
but in secret.

1569
01:21:49.479 --> 01:21:52.039
Yeah, I can't let you know, That's.

1570
01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:54.119
Right, I just don't blow up at me exactly.

1571
01:21:55.000 --> 01:21:56.960
I too was a teacher's pet, believe it or not.

1572
01:21:57.239 --> 01:22:02.920
I believe that, Yeah, I was cute and that you're cute. Well,

1573
01:22:02.920 --> 01:22:05.000
I mean, you know, just I looked. I was probably

1574
01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:09.640
like wayfish because I've got this, you know, unruly red

1575
01:22:09.680 --> 01:22:13.039
hair and pale skin, and I don't know, people just

1576
01:22:13.079 --> 01:22:15.680
probably felt sorry for him. Award child.

1577
01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:18.520
You were a good student, though, and you I'm sure

1578
01:22:18.560 --> 01:22:19.359
I was.

1579
01:22:19.479 --> 01:22:22.199
I was always I think I've probably talked about this before,

1580
01:22:22.600 --> 01:22:24.560
A smart kid, but not not the And I was

1581
01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:26.239
a good student. I mean I was a fair it was.

1582
01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:29.119
I got good grades, but I never I didn't study much. Yeah,

1583
01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:31.399
you didn't study much either, right. You always talk about

1584
01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:33.359
how you just aced high school and you never opened

1585
01:22:33.359 --> 01:22:38.640
a book? Ye, same, rich, same, Yeah, was anyone in

1586
01:22:38.680 --> 01:22:41.319
your high school involved with a teacher that you know of?

1587
01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:42.560
Uh?

1588
01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:47.279
Not that I know of. I'm sure it probably happened.

1589
01:22:46.920 --> 01:22:49.079
But I so rose to me.

1590
01:22:49.840 --> 01:22:53.760
Yeah for sure, and you know, back not that it

1591
01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:57.159
was acceptable, but it definitely was I think more common,

1592
01:22:57.520 --> 01:23:00.520
and I think people look the other way more when

1593
01:23:00.560 --> 01:23:02.840
stuff like that happened. I don't know, maybe that's just

1594
01:23:02.960 --> 01:23:05.960
me imagining that, but I didn't know. I didn't know

1595
01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:08.439
of it happening at all, but I'm just guessing that

1596
01:23:08.479 --> 01:23:09.319
it probably did.

1597
01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:09.960
So.

1598
01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:13.760
I know of one rumored romance in my high school,

1599
01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:16.680
and I think it was like everyone was pretty sure

1600
01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:20.039
that it was going on. Really yeah, and there's a connection.

1601
01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:22.479
I'll tell you later, but it's kind of someone you

1602
01:23:22.640 --> 01:23:25.119
kind of sort of oh really, but yeah, I'm not

1603
01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:31.079
going to say anything else, but yeah, I think I

1604
01:23:31.079 --> 01:23:34.319
think I was kind of flirting with teachers sometimes. I mean,

1605
01:23:34.359 --> 01:23:37.119
there is were you flirt. I don't know, it's just

1606
01:23:37.359 --> 01:23:39.119
kind of weird to think of it was some teachers

1607
01:23:39.159 --> 01:23:42.399
are super young, Like if you're seventeen eighteen and there's

1608
01:23:42.439 --> 01:23:44.079
a student teacher that I had a big crush on,

1609
01:23:44.119 --> 01:23:45.880
and he was probably twenty two or twenty three, and

1610
01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:48.000
then the next year he came back and he was

1611
01:23:48.039 --> 01:23:49.319
a teacher, So it was kind of.

1612
01:23:49.319 --> 01:23:52.239
Like I do remember in high school once I had

1613
01:23:52.279 --> 01:23:54.960
an English teacher. Her name was missus Olds, and she

1614
01:23:55.199 --> 01:23:58.000
was really old. She was like eighty, probably in her eighties.

1615
01:23:58.359 --> 01:24:02.279
Maybe she wasn't quite that old, but no, she got

1616
01:24:02.479 --> 01:24:05.319
sick or something and she had to leave and the

1617
01:24:05.399 --> 01:24:09.960
person who replaced her had to be right. Yes, she

1618
01:24:10.159 --> 01:24:13.159
was very young and very attractive. And every guy like

1619
01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:15.640
this is high school, you know, we're eleventh or twelfth grade.

1620
01:24:15.680 --> 01:24:18.079
Every guy like had a total crush.

1621
01:24:18.079 --> 01:24:20.720
Not you, because no, I did too.

1622
01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:22.039
But I didn't. I didn't flirt with.

1623
01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:30.359
Her anything like that. No, I don't want to be annoying.

1624
01:24:30.359 --> 01:24:32.279
But do you want to tell everyone how awesome your

1625
01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:32.760
wife is?

1626
01:24:33.439 --> 01:24:36.760
You are awesome, and you've put me in a bad situation.

1627
01:24:37.680 --> 01:24:41.560
Well you okay, let's just say you're awesome because of

1628
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:44.479
all the nice things you did for my birthday over

1629
01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:47.359
the last couple of weeks. But you put me in

1630
01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:49.840
a bad position because now your birthday's coming up, and

1631
01:24:49.880 --> 01:24:52.479
there's no way I'm going to live up to the same.

1632
01:24:53.199 --> 01:24:56.319
For my birthday, I would like, here's what I want

1633
01:24:56.359 --> 01:25:00.840
for my birthday. I want you to anoymous leap donate

1634
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:03.399
to charity Okay, I don't want any I don't want

1635
01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:08.039
my name attached. You were like the Larry David episode. Yes, anonymous,

1636
01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:11.439
that's what I want, just because I'm selfless. I don't

1637
01:25:11.479 --> 01:25:13.039
need gifts. I don't want anyone to spend money.

1638
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:17.520
I'm glad we've got this on recording, but I will

1639
01:25:17.520 --> 01:25:20.880
share this the very nice things you did for my Oh, I.

1640
01:25:20.840 --> 01:25:23.079
Just met the big one, just because that was pretty exciting.

1641
01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:24.359
You don't talk about all the other stuff.

1642
01:25:24.359 --> 01:25:25.640
Oh, there were two big things you did.

1643
01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:28.279
It wasn't that the first one wasn't that big of

1644
01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:28.600
a deal.

1645
01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:29.359
That's it was.

1646
01:25:29.880 --> 01:25:32.479
You got tickets for us to go see Jim gaff again,

1647
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:34.760
who we we love. We've seen him a couple a

1648
01:25:34.760 --> 01:25:36.600
few times. He's hilarious.

1649
01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:39.000
You've not seen if you are, you need to see.

1650
01:25:39.039 --> 01:25:41.600
He's just really fun, humorous. It's almost like a play

1651
01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:44.399
because there's really no like a lot of comedians do

1652
01:25:44.479 --> 01:25:47.640
audience interactions. There's like no audience interaction. He just gives

1653
01:25:47.680 --> 01:25:50.520
out there, does his skit and then he's out.

1654
01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:53.159
Yeah. But we so we went to downtown Detroit. We

1655
01:25:53.199 --> 01:25:56.000
stayed overnight there. We went to see Jim Gaffigan.

1656
01:25:55.840 --> 01:25:57.880
And had a nice alcohol free dinner things.

1657
01:25:58.520 --> 01:26:01.640
We went to a restaurant that didn't serve of Margaret there.

1658
01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:04.840
But really one of the highlights too, was was we

1659
01:26:04.920 --> 01:26:08.880
ran into Kevin McDonald from Kids in the Hall. We

1660
01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:11.760
were at our hotel. We were walking down the hall

1661
01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:14.279
and coming the other way was Kevin McDonald, who I

1662
01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:15.199
love Kids in the Hall.

1663
01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:15.680
You do.

1664
01:26:15.960 --> 01:26:17.640
Always been a huge fan. And so I got to

1665
01:26:17.680 --> 01:26:20.399
see Kevin McDonald say hi to him that that.

1666
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:22.239
Was so cute. That was and because I didn't know,

1667
01:26:22.279 --> 01:26:23.640
because I was just like, oh, it was just a

1668
01:26:23.640 --> 01:26:24.399
little weird guy.

1669
01:26:24.520 --> 01:26:26.800
After we passed, I said, we passed him and I

1670
01:26:27.039 --> 01:26:28.279
kind of looked at him and said hi, and he

1671
01:26:28.279 --> 01:26:30.159
said ye to me. And then I came running up

1672
01:26:30.159 --> 01:26:31.800
to you. I'm like, that was Kevin McDonald, did you.

1673
01:26:33.880 --> 01:26:34.039
From?

1674
01:26:34.800 --> 01:26:35.039
Yeah?

1675
01:26:35.079 --> 01:26:36.039
So that was really cool.

1676
01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:38.000
Yeah, and then we stayed in that was a really

1677
01:26:38.119 --> 01:26:39.720
nice hotel. That was That was a fun weekend.

1678
01:26:39.920 --> 01:26:43.880
Yeah, it was really fun. And then Thanksgiving on Thursday,

1679
01:26:44.720 --> 01:26:47.199
we you got me tickets to you got the whole

1680
01:26:47.239 --> 01:26:50.359
family tickets to go see the Lions game playing the

1681
01:26:50.359 --> 01:26:53.439
Bears on Thanksgiving Day, which was awesome. It was a

1682
01:26:53.479 --> 01:26:56.920
great game. It was exciting and and yeah, it was

1683
01:26:56.960 --> 01:26:58.119
just really fun to It.

1684
01:26:58.039 --> 01:26:59.520
Was really fun to be at the game. I had

1685
01:26:59.600 --> 01:27:01.920
to say, And I am from Chicago, as many of

1686
01:27:01.920 --> 01:27:02.159
you know.

1687
01:27:02.319 --> 01:27:03.039
I wore your Bears.

1688
01:27:03.359 --> 01:27:06.439
I wore a Bear sweatshirt. And can I just say

1689
01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:10.720
I felt unsafe? Yeah, I felt.

1690
01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:13.279
I felt a little bad because the fans can get

1691
01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:15.760
really like, yeah, they can be jerks, and I hate

1692
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:16.760
that about well, it's.

1693
01:27:16.600 --> 01:27:18.079
Been a long time since we've been to a game.

1694
01:27:18.079 --> 01:27:21.439
The amount of test t stosterone in that stadium. Yeah,

1695
01:27:21.479 --> 01:27:24.880
holy cow, so aggressive and a man like, I'm a

1696
01:27:25.319 --> 01:27:28.199
I'm a nice person. I don't look intimidating at all.

1697
01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:30.760
Someone came up to me, got in my face with

1698
01:27:30.800 --> 01:27:33.279
his beer breath and said, fuck you Chicago, and I

1699
01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:35.399
was like, okay, I know.

1700
01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:37.920
That's the one thing I really hate that about football games.

1701
01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:40.159
It's always been kind of like that. There's just fights

1702
01:27:40.159 --> 01:27:41.199
breakout and people are.

1703
01:27:41.319 --> 01:27:42.680
In the game. So the first half of the game,

1704
01:27:42.680 --> 01:27:45.119
the Bear scored zero and I'm like, okay, well that

1705
01:27:45.119 --> 01:27:47.079
that sucks if you're a Bears fan. But then he

1706
01:27:47.239 --> 01:27:52.079
came back for the second half and they were gonna.

1707
01:27:51.800 --> 01:27:52.199
Win, like.

1708
01:27:54.399 --> 01:27:57.560
And I was like, what am I gonna I'm gonna

1709
01:27:57.640 --> 01:27:59.960
die because you weren't gonna protect me. You would have

1710
01:28:00.560 --> 01:28:01.600
so because I had the Bear.

1711
01:28:01.479 --> 01:28:04.680
Shirt on, but yeah, I probably would have failed because

1712
01:28:04.720 --> 01:28:05.000
so it was.

1713
01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:07.359
A point I'm like rooting against the Bears because I'm like,

1714
01:28:07.560 --> 01:28:10.079
if the Bears win, I'm going to be murdered. So

1715
01:28:10.840 --> 01:28:12.600
I was like, do I go buy a lion shirt

1716
01:28:12.680 --> 01:28:15.079
and giftshop? Oh, can you get out of this place.

1717
01:28:16.039 --> 01:28:18.239
It's good that you're thinking ahead that sort of thing.

1718
01:28:18.239 --> 01:28:20.560
But that was gratefully the Bears blew it, yeah, and

1719
01:28:20.600 --> 01:28:22.800
their coach was fired. So it was really kind of

1720
01:28:22.800 --> 01:28:23.800
a cool game to be at.

1721
01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:26.159
Yeah, it was pretty cool. And then to top it

1722
01:28:26.199 --> 01:28:30.000
all off, on my actual birthday November thirtieth, University of

1723
01:28:30.000 --> 01:28:33.079
Michigan beat Ohio State, which was I don't know how.

1724
01:28:32.920 --> 01:28:34.960
You arranged the sports podcast.

1725
01:28:35.119 --> 01:28:36.720
I don't know how you arranged that, but I was

1726
01:28:36.760 --> 01:28:38.359
so appreciative that you were able to it.

1727
01:28:38.359 --> 01:28:39.960
Definitely took some phone calls, yeah.

1728
01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:42.399
Because they were like twenty some point underdog. So that

1729
01:28:42.560 --> 01:28:44.840
was like just made my birthday. It just topped it

1730
01:28:44.840 --> 01:28:45.239
all to.

1731
01:28:45.279 --> 01:28:48.840
Our Ohio friends. It's why there was a few people

1732
01:28:48.840 --> 01:28:51.319
that messaged me after every Ohio you know, Ohio State

1733
01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:52.000
Michigan game.

1734
01:28:52.039 --> 01:28:53.920
And yeah, it's all in good fun.

1735
01:28:54.680 --> 01:28:57.920
No, it's fun, it's really not some people. Hold.

1736
01:28:58.640 --> 01:29:00.640
When I was at the airport yesterday in New York,

1737
01:29:01.039 --> 01:29:03.840
somebody came up to me and she said, I just

1738
01:29:03.880 --> 01:29:05.880
want you to know. I was wearing my Michigan sweatshirt

1739
01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:07.439
and she said, I just want you know. I live

1740
01:29:07.439 --> 01:29:09.520
in Columbus, but I really like your sweatshirt.

1741
01:29:11.920 --> 01:29:12.079
Wow.

1742
01:29:12.159 --> 01:29:12.920
That's interesting.

1743
01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:14.039
Nice.

1744
01:29:16.039 --> 01:29:19.479
Well, if you are listening to this on Monday, December ninth,

1745
01:29:20.039 --> 01:29:25.279
you missed the boat on our merche so sorry. If

1746
01:29:25.399 --> 01:29:28.399
enough people contact with like five or more people tell

1747
01:29:28.479 --> 01:29:30.439
us that they would still like to order something, we

1748
01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:32.920
can open the store again, right.

1749
01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:34.239
I think we can.

1750
01:29:34.399 --> 01:29:36.680
We have to close it because they don't print it

1751
01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:39.119
until we close the order.

1752
01:29:39.279 --> 01:29:41.880
Yeah, but we could reopen it again if we have

1753
01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:43.159
enough people that really.

1754
01:29:43.560 --> 01:29:44.319
In time for Christmas.

1755
01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:45.119
Let us know.

1756
01:29:45.199 --> 01:29:46.079
So yeah, let us know.

1757
01:29:46.199 --> 01:29:47.199
And how can they let us know?

1758
01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:52.039
You can come to come to our house and not

1759
01:29:52.079 --> 01:29:52.600
gon our note.

1760
01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:55.800
They could email us, You.

1761
01:29:55.800 --> 01:29:58.960
Could email, You could email us, or you can kill

1762
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:04.760
at gmail dot. You can message us on Instagram or Facebook, or.

1763
01:30:04.920 --> 01:30:09.479
You could write us a letter PO box one one

1764
01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:11.720
one dexter Michigan for one three zero.

1765
01:30:11.880 --> 01:30:15.479
You could run into us at the Michigan game or no,

1766
01:30:15.560 --> 01:30:18.800
actually Michigan's don't playing anyway. No, yeah, just let us

1767
01:30:18.800 --> 01:30:21.039
know and we will. I'm really we're really tired. We

1768
01:30:21.039 --> 01:30:24.239
were a little slap happy, but they're a little tired. Yeah,

1769
01:30:24.399 --> 01:30:25.960
that was a long one. Thanks for hanging in there

1770
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:26.319
with us.

1771
01:30:26.359 --> 01:30:28.600
If you made it to the end, Yeah, we appreciate

1772
01:30:28.600 --> 01:30:31.359
you listening. If you'd like to listen to both parts

1773
01:30:31.399 --> 01:30:33.880
of this episode today, you can join us on patreon

1774
01:30:33.960 --> 01:30:37.600
dot com slash love Mary Kill. We have one tier,

1775
01:30:37.680 --> 01:30:39.880
five dollars a month, and you get early ad free

1776
01:30:39.880 --> 01:30:42.279
access and we do a monthly bonus episode.

1777
01:30:42.319 --> 01:30:43.800
Do you know what I found out the other day?

1778
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:47.960
I was looking at Patreon and some other podcasters patreons.

1779
01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:51.079
I was doing a little snooping. There are some podcasters

1780
01:30:51.119 --> 01:30:53.720
that have tiers that go up to like more than

1781
01:30:53.760 --> 01:30:56.079
twenty dollars. They might send you a pair of socks

1782
01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:59.079
or something, but I'm sorry, who needs more socks. We

1783
01:30:59.199 --> 01:31:02.199
decided to only have one tier and we don't plan

1784
01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:05.760
on raising our you know, the five dollars anytime soon.

1785
01:31:06.079 --> 01:31:09.760
And some podcasters you have to pay to talk to them.

1786
01:31:10.159 --> 01:31:12.920
They won't answer your messages unless you're like, you know,

1787
01:31:13.039 --> 01:31:17.359
like a third tier Patreon member. It's not like that.

1788
01:31:17.399 --> 01:31:21.000
I love you well. I do my best to get

1789
01:31:21.039 --> 01:31:23.479
back to everyone. And if you don't get a response,

1790
01:31:23.560 --> 01:31:26.119
it's not because I'm ignoring you, it's because I didn't

1791
01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:28.880
see it. Facebook, especially, I'm not good at Facebook. It's

1792
01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:32.319
like harder. Instagram is a little easier, so you can

1793
01:31:32.439 --> 01:31:34.279
message me again if I I don't see it the

1794
01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:37.239
first time, if you haven't already, it would be a

1795
01:31:37.279 --> 01:31:40.079
wonderful Christmas present if you could leave us a five

1796
01:31:40.119 --> 01:31:40.760
star review.

1797
01:31:41.239 --> 01:31:42.840
Yeah, that really makes a big difference.

1798
01:31:42.840 --> 01:31:44.920
Really the best thing that you and it really does.

1799
01:31:45.000 --> 01:31:48.680
It makes a difference. Yeah, it makes other listeners bind us.

1800
01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:51.560
Well, thank you so much for listening. And until next time.

1801
01:31:51.560 --> 01:32:23.000
Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1802
01:32:11.119 --> 01:32:28.279
To companion to

1803
01:32:31.840 --> 01:32:35.119
The