Lynette Joy Simms and Chris Dawson - Part 2

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you. I'm doing great? How are you? I'm great. I'm a woman at Christmas time, so I am calm and cool. Not much going on in your life, not much to do, Yeah, but.

0:42 I wouldn't say bored. Yeah. Panic is just slowly starting to see you seep into myself. We haven't even gotten a Christmas tree, I know, and it's December seventh's I don't know. Yeah, I guess. Well this is going to be released you know what. Day, December sixteenth. Well, by then we will have a Christmas tree. Am my shopping. I'll probably be all done and wrapped and would be bacon cookies, seeing Christmas carols in the kitchen and. The beautiful vision you paint. I can't wait. It's going to be great. We'll be going to be built a snowman in the front yard. Great, it's going to be like a Norman rock Well seen here. Yeah, I can't wait for that. I'm looking forward to it. So our lovely listener friend, our dear friend Yarna from Finland, sent us a box of snacks.

1:25 I am so excited about this. And it's been sitting in our kitchen counter for a few weeks while. So, yeah, we had a little break in our recording schedule. I skipped breakfast this morning, so I'm actually really hungry and really have been looking forward to this awesome, awesome I didn't. I didn't one hundred percent skip breakfast. I had an Zac biscuit, but that's all I had. You really liked those, didn't you? I mean we all did. The whole family was a big fan of those. Yeah they're really good. Yeah they were great. Was it harder this morning the Anzac biscuit? No, it was still pretty chewy. All right, So in this box we have Okay, so I don't know how to say these things, so please please give me some grace. But yeah, I'm not even gonna try. This looks like it's some sort of a granola, a granola type biscuit. Actually perfect for breakfast. It looks like the Aussi bites that you eat for breakfast. Sometimes they're blueberry flavored. Yeah here you say it.

2:25 Do you think Do you think I speak Finnish? I don't speak Finish. So we have granola bites and then these look really yummy. Some these actually have what they are in English rye crisps with sweet chili. It's like a little crispy, kind of big Oldish type bite. Interesting. It looks really good, smells really good too, Okay. And then you're gonna like this a box of milk chocolate. Okay, I can't say that name, but that looks really yummy. And this one, I'm not so sure about it. It looks like it's Finnish licorice Christmas mix. Yeah, I think that part of the.

3:09 World, like, yeah, people love licorice. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not a licorice fan, but I'm going to try it. I'm going to Okay, I'm. Going to do it. We'll be right back. How fun is it to eat international snacks? I love it? Yeah, it's so fun. I love it so much too. Thank you so much, Yarna. She is the sweetest person. It's one of our biggest supporters. So we love you so much and we really appreciate you taking the effort for us. Yeah, but that said. I didn't care for the licorice, but I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would hate it. Okay, I feel badly, but I did not even try it.

3:50 I am really not very happy with you about it. I know you're disappointed me. I just I can't. I really just do not like it at all, So I apologize for that. I'm sure I think our son loves black lid. Oh yeah, he'll probably like it. Yeah, he'll love it. Yeah. Everything else, though, I really I thought was amazing. I loved it. I thought the blueberry granola thing was good, wasn't I didn't love it. I liked it. Probably give it a six. Oh, i'd give it an eight. Is good. The chili, the rye crisps with sweet chili, I really like that. Those are those are delicious. I would buy those definitely. Yeah, very unique and interesting. And the chocolate was, yeah, it was amazing. I would give the rye crisp chilies. I would give those a ten out of ten. I love a crispy It's super crispy, but not like too crispy. And the chocolate was really delicious and creamy, and uh, yeah.

4:39 Ten out of ten for that too, and I'm going to give the liquorice it too, because it was quite as bad as I thought it was. Oh wow, Okay, maybe I'll try it later, but. Oh okay, at least I didn't. It's okay, very disappointed, but it's okay. Can you imagine how lovely Finland is this time of year? But it's just beautiful. I know, it's kind of what I picture when I picture Christmas is Finland and reindeer. And I don't know, I don't know anything about Finland, but I'm sure it's beautiful. There's a lot of hooga. Yes exactly. I should have checked with Yarda before. We were just talking about whether or not Finland is considered a Scandinavian country, and apparently it isn't officially not.

5:26 Part of the Scandinavian peninsula, but it's sometimes considered a Scandinavian country nor a country. Nice who good type lights? Yes, I'm sure they do. Are you ready for part two? I am really ready. I'm really anxious to find out what happens here, and I really hope that there is justice served, but I'm not feeling that confident. Would you like to give us a summary? I would in January nineteen eighty two, Lynette Dawson, a loving wife and mother, vanished from the suburbs of Sydney, Australia. Her husband, Chris Dawson, a former professional rugby player and local celebrity, insisted that she left voluntarily. Lynn's family and friends initially believed his story, but as the years passed with no contact from Lynn, their suspicions of foul play grew.

6:11 The police barely investigated Lynn's disappearance. They believed that she had left voluntarily. Lynn's friends and family knew that was impossible. She'd never leave her husband or daughters. Two days after her disappearance, Chris moved his seventeen year old girlfriend, Joanne into his house. They were married two years later, but soon Chris became controlling and abusive to his new wife. I forgot to mention this during part one, but Joanne was referred to as j c or Ab in court documents because she was a miner at the time. Also, if you listen to the Teacher's Pet podcast, Joanne is referred to as jac or as Jenny in Headley's book, and Sharon is called Amy. I think he changed a lot of names, Okay, and I didn't because it's been so long, and if you were in Australia, you know who these people are. You know these are their real names.

7:05 Right. Today's episode discusses sensitive topics including domestic violence, grooming, and the sexual abuse of minors. These subjects maybe distressing for some listeners, Please listen with care. In nineteen ninety, after six years of marriage, any love that had existed between Joanne and Chris had long since evaporated. As Joanne grew older, she came to understand that Chris had begun grooming her when she was just fifteen years old. Their toxic relationship, built on manipulation and deception, became increasingly volatile. Over time. Chris's behavior turned more controlling and abusive, leaving Joanne in constant fear for her safety, and one terrifying incident, during a heated argument, Chris punched the windshield of their car with such startling force that it cracked.

7:53 You would have to punch a windshield really, really hard to make it crack, and I can't imagine what that would do to your fist either. Began bringing school age girls around to their home to swim in their pool, repeating the cycle Joanne was afraid she was going to end up like Lynne. She longed for freedom and peace for herself and her daughter. After wasting years of her youth in a dysfunctional marriage. She was scared to leave Chris. She'd only held one part time job in her life during high school and had no money of her own. She tried to squirrel a little money away from the small allowance that Chris gave her. On February first, nineteen ninety, twenty six year old Joanne left Chris with five year old Kristen in tow and never looked back. Twelve year old Channel and ten year old Sharon were again motherless, not that Joanne had been much of a mother to them. Chris was heartbroken and tried to win her back, but she was done. Although the situation was an ideal, she and Kristin moved in with her mother, but at least she was out of Chris's grasp. It was important to Joanne to make amends with Lynde's family. She asked a musual friend to arrange a meeting. Helena at first refused. Helena, being Lynn's mom, she was holding a grudge against Joanne for not allowing her to see her granddaughters, but eventually her family talked her into it by reminding her that she might have important information to share with them. The meeting was cordial.

9:12 Joanne felt as if a weight had been lifted from her after the hour's long meeting. It was only after this meeting with Joanne that Helena began to question Chris. So this is years later, and Helena had still really held out hope prized to hear that it was an important step in Joanne's healing process to apologize to the Simms family. Soon, Joanne went to the police to tell them that they should investigate Chris Dawson for Lynne's murder, and they might want to begin by digging up the ground around the pool at to Gilwinga Drive. Shortly after Joanne left, Chris met his third wife, a teacher named Sue. They were married two years later in Fiji. Sue taught science at Saint Brendan's Catholic Boys School, while Chris continued to teach pe at Saint Ursula's Girls College. Sue had young twins, a boy and a girl. It's unclear of Chris formally adopted them, but they used the surname Dawson in school.

10:07 I'm surprised he would marry someone who was sounds like she was not. I don't know how much white is young, but she was a teacher, so she wasn't like still in school. Yeah, I think she was younger than him, but I'm not sure how much younger. Prompted by the information that Joanne had shared with them, finally, on January fifteenth, nineteen ninety one, the New South Wales Police traveled to Queensland and paid a visit to Chris Dawson. During the interview, he claimed that Joanne was trying to slander him because of an upcoming custody hearing. Chris maintained that January ninth, nineteen eighty two, was the last time that he saw Lynn. He claimed that they had attended marriage counseling, then came home and had a romantic evening together. The next morning, January ninth, Chris dropped Lyn off at the bus station in Mona Vale at seven a m. And he said that is the last time that he saw her. She was going to do some Christmas returns and later she was going to meet Chris, the children and Helena at the baths then called him at the baths on January ninth, and allegedly three more times over the week, and that was the last time he ever heard from her. Barbara Cruz, Lynn's friend and boss, said quote, I think what happened with them. He's a very handsome man. Both the Dawson boys were very handsome boys. Well they were twins, they were models, and she was a very attractive girl when they married. So when this is something like twelve years later, she'd gotten a little bigger. She still had a gorgeous smile, and it was still I would say, a lovely girl, but wasn't model material. And I think maybe Chris was about the looks at that stage. It should have been a whole lot more. She'd become a mum and not

11:38 the model wife that maybe he still wanted. Detective Damien Lune was a scientist Lindn's case in nineteen ninety eight. The case had gone cold when Damien was handed Lynd's case file. If you could call it a file, it contained only one piece of hate. The rest of the file was missing. The investigation up to that point had been neglected and bungled. Any gathered evidence had been lost, including financial statements and insurance information. The New South Wales police during this time were known to be corrupt and engaged in money laundering, bribery, destroying or withholding evidence, and fraud. Key witnesses were known to be beaten. Chris and Paul were friends with police officers. They'd coached the police rugby teams and often played with them over the years. Could it be that they were protecting Chris boy?

12:28 I would hope not, but does make you wonder. Damien never gave up finding the truth. It was his perseverance that prompted two coronial inquests. But one of the biggest mysteries is why the investigation halted and lagged for years when not all leads had been explored. Critical interviews, such as those with Lynn's family and coworkers, were never conducted. Although Damien's work was pivotal in Lynd's case, Pat Simms, Lynne's sister, thinks he wasted a decade he never formally interviewed Lena, who was very eager to help. In nineteen ninety nine, he went to Queensland to talk with Paul Dawson. Paul told Damien that around the time of Lynn's disappearance, he Marilyn and their girls were on a camping holiday.

13:14 Was that a coincidence or a convenience? January eighth, nineteen eighty two, was the last time that Lynn Is seen alive. Somewhere in early January. I think it was January fourth, Paul and Maryland and the kids went camping. And remember that Chris is picking up Joanne on January tenth. She was on a camping trip. She was on a camping trip, but it was further up. But Chris would have passed by where Paul and Marilyn and the girls were. Okay, So, knowing how close the twins were, do you think that Chris would have just driven by or do you think he would have stopped and seen Paul on the kids. I would definitely think he would, so, which I'm sorry, what day did he drive up to pick up Joanne.

13:57 We think it's January tenth, so it was. Like two days after after Lynn disappeared. Okay, So the thought being that possibly Chris could have taken their body. Yeah, and Paul. Paul could have helped him marry her body somewhere along the way. Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. I mean, I was thinking about that anyway that I wondered if Paul was involved, because obviously they're so close and do everything together, you would think he might be involved as well. Paul was usually the brains of the two. It's hard to imagine that Chris would have done anything to Lynn without him knowing. Yeah, and was that their plan? Like Paul was like, well, I'm not going to be here, so I can you know I can have an alibi?

14:39 And yeah, maybe so. Paul asked a very good question of Damien during the interview. He asked why hadn't he been questioned years earlier? There was no response. In nineteen ninety nine, as Damien's investigation intensified, Chris and Paul's phones were tapped. Law enforcement was hoping to catch them talking about Lynn's case after the investigation escalated, but they never implicated themselves. They implawed, something's happened to Lean and that you had you had to know, you soking someone come to LENI is are they going to search the property and do sorts of things? And oh, so lucky them, you know, I called Alan was some way with a whole new lave. Something happened only when she could be anyway.

15:26 So that was Chris and Paul talking on the phone. Yeah, it's like they knew that the phones were being tapped. Yeah, it does kind of make you wonder. I wonder how I would I would guess that was very uncommon. Do you have your phones tapped? I would think so too. If we are to believe that Lynn Willingly left a baby, surely over the years someone would have come forward with a story of her being a coworker, a neighbor or a friend. But no one had ever come forward in all the years that Lynn had been missing with a verifiable account. Here's Damian Lone. She's never gone I have a science. She's never a plowed for passport, she has never plowed for Middi kakot a credit cod she doesn't bank with anybody.

16:07 She's a richeson nurse. She's not riches in any stitle territory in Australia. And she's just basically been tagn off the planet, never to be sent again. His voice makes me tear up. It's such a good voice. The investigation was difficult and problematic because so much time had passed. There was no forensic evidence, no body, no blood, no fingerprints. Although no body prosecutions have become more common, they are more difficult to get a conviction. So much time had passed. Even if she was buried somewhere, the ground would have plants would have been growing over it, and just any lead I think would have been hard to follow up on.

16:51 Yeah, for sure. A notable Australia no body prosecution case is the mcculcan case, which is one of Australia's oldest cold cases. Barbara mcculchin and her two daughters, Vicki thirteen and Leanne eleven, disappeared from their Brisbane home on January sixteenth, nineteen seventy four. The case remained a mystery for decades. Barbara's ex husband, Billy mcculchin, was involved in organized crime. She was believed to have knowledge of his criminal activities, including arson connected to the infamous Whiskey Agogo nightclub fire in nineteen seventy three. This is what likely made Barbara mcculchin a target. The Whiskey Agogo Nightclub was a prominent venue in Brisbane, Queensland during the nineteen seventies. It became infamous for a devastating firebombing attack on March eighth, nineteen seventy three, which resulted in the deaths of fifteen people. This tragedy is one of Australia's worst mass murders. In twenty seventeen, forty three years later, Vincent o'dempsey and Gary Dubois were convicted. O'dempsey was sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering the mcculkins, while dubois was found guilty of rape and manslaw. The bodies of Barbara and her daughters were never found.

18:04 In nineteen ninety eight, Joanne gave a twenty seven page statement to the police. In it, she detailed her relationship with Chris and her suspicions about what had happened to Lynn. The statement finally led to Chris being formally questioned by police. The interview led to two coronial inquests, the first in two thousand one. A coronial inquest in Australia is a legal inquiry conducted by a coroner who has the power to investigate certain deaths, particularly those that are sudden, unnatural or suspicious. The goal of an inquest is to determine the identity of the deceased, the cause and circumstances of death, and make recommendations to prevent similar incidents. Inquests do not assign criminal or civil liability, but they can uncover evidence for further investigation. They are governed by state laws and often involve witness testimony, document review, and public findings. At the conclusion of an inquest, the coroner may assess whether or not they believed there was criminal intent and can recommend filing charges. The first inquest called no witnesses and only lasted half a day. Little evidence was offered. The transcript is a paltry twenty five pages. The coroner ruled that Lynn had been murdered by a person known to her, meaning Chris. The Department of Public Prosecutions declined to file charges, citing lack of evidence. Two years later, in two thousand and three, it was decided to give it another go after more evidence was gathered. The second inquest lasted five

19:34 days and over twenty witnesses were called. One of the witnesses was thirty nine year old Joanne Curtis. She said that she had been groomed by Chris and was forced into marriage because he would never let her go and she had no other options. She said she felt like a sex slave. Joanne was accused of being an unreliable witness. Several of Chris's other female students, who had been miners at the time, came forward to testify about the sexual abuse they suffered at the hands of the Dawson brothers. Some victims declined to testify as they didn't want to upset their current wives. The second inquest was more fruitful. The transcript is over three hundred pages. At the end of the inquest, Lynn was again declared dead and a murder victim by the hand of someone who knew her.

20:21 The coroner recommended that the DPP charge Christawson with Lynn's murder and the concealment of her body. Again, the DPP declined to file charges against Christawson. Former New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery told ABC News Australia that the evidence that Lynn was murdered wasn't strong enough to move forward with a prosecution. Quote without a body, without knowing first of all, whether in fact she is dead, without knowing secondly, if she is dead, how she died, It's very hard to mount a case of a reasonable prospect of conviction just on motive and the undefined existence of means and oper opportunity that makes it very weak.

21:02 Lynn Dawson disappeared, and that really is as far as I can take it in my own mind. I don't want to defend the police here, but there is not a lot of evidence. Yeah, I agree, there's a point there. Part of the reason there's not a lot of evidence because they screwed up so badly and never investigated it thoroughly in the first place. But you're right, I mean, there's not a lot to go on. There was also the problem of several alleged sightings of Lynn over the years. A friend of Lynn and Chris's Sue Butlin, told police that she had seen Lynn once at a roadside fruit stand. When she approached Lynn, she got in a car and drove away. So we're supposed to believe that Lynn got her driver's license in between the times she disappeared and this sighting.

21:45 Right, this seems very unlikely. And I know a lot of times people see you know, there's always sightings of people that disappeared their high profile in the news. But it's odd that this is actually a friend of hers that said that she saw her. You would think that she would, you know, but. Well for the record, Sue and her husband were good friends of Chris uh Okay. Sue also revealed to police that Helena Simms had once spotted her daughter, but this was false. Helena had never spotted her daughter. She looked tirelessly for Lynne but never spotted her. She took buses, ferries and trains endlessly searching for her. Helena wrote beseeching letters to hospitals asking if Lynn had ever been in their employee. If she had ever had a sighting of Lynn, she would have never let it go. Sue had died before the inquests, but the police believed her account, and although Helena had never reported citing Lynn herself to the police and they'd never questioned her, they believed Sue's account that she had seen Lynn.

22:45 That really frustrated Lynn's family. I can totally understand that, Yeah, you're getting it secondhand from somebody else who is a friend of Chris's, but you're not going to go to the source and believe her. Twenty years had passed between Lyne's disappearance and the inquests. As time marched on, the investigation became more challenging as witnesses memories faded, and some had died. I would be in real trouble if someone asked me about something that happened twenty years ago. Oh yeah, for sure. I mean it's a traumatic event and you would have memories of it. But well maybe not, because a lot of them just thought she had gone off and joined a religious group or something. So a lot of people didn't think that anything suspicious had happened, So you wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily remember a lot.

23:28 Yeah. Hadley Thomas, a journalist for The Australian and The Weekend Australian newspaper, was still reeling from the loss of his father and namesake months after his death. Hadley Senior had been quite a character. At age seventy, he embarked on a solo sailing trip from San Francisco to Australia. Wow. After his death, Headley missed him horribly. He found himself moral less and unmotivated by the unfinished news pieces that lay scattered across his desk. A case that he'd worked on sixteen years earlier nod at the back of his brain. In two thousand and one, he had written a piece for The Australian titled Looking for Lynn Lynn Dawson, a thirty three year old wife and mother of two, had gone missing without a trace. After his piece on Lynne was published, someone shot a gun four times into Hedley's home.

24:17 A bullet narrowly missed his wife as she lay in bed, and another pierced the wall of the children's playroom. Oh, that's terrifying. The family absconded to Tasmania while the incident was investigated. The gun was later found by a nearby creek. Hedley and his family suffered from PTSD long after the shooting. In twenty seventeen, Lynn Dawson's case still hadn't been solved. In the thirty six years since she'd vanished, there had never been a verifiable sighting of her. Law enforcement had failed to conduct a thorough surgra line or adequately investigate her disappearance, and no one was ever charged with any crime in connection with her case. In October twenty seventeen, Hedley cautiously pitched a new idea to his odd. He stepped into their office and proposed launching a new project, a true crime podcast investigating Lynn Dawson's nineteen eighty two disappearance.

25:09 Podcasts were just starting to catch on. Inspired by the popular podcast Serial from twenty fourteen and Dirty John from twenty seventeen, Hadley thought he might be able to solve Lynde's case by creating an in depth documentary style podcast of his own. As an agent of change, he hoped to unearth witnesses who'd previously been hesitant to be interviewed by law enforcement. He really thought he had a shot at solving the case. Hadley's desire to solve Lynn's case was personal. His own grandmother had vanished from the northern beaches of Sydney when his father was a boy, the same place Lynn Dawson had gone missing. Two of his grandmother's siblings had died by suicide, and she may have as well. What the unknown plagued him. Hadley had even attended the same high school where Chris Dawson taught. Hadley's editor loved the idea and gave him six months to investigate the case and produce a podcast. He wanted justice for Lynn, her daughters, and the Simms family, who he had grown very close to. He interviewed dozens of people and reviewed every police document he could get his hands on.

26:15 Headley Thomas could never have anticipated the profound worldwide impact of his aptly named podcast, The Teacher's Pet, despite becoming a smash hit and receiving over eighty million downloads worldwide. That's what wee get in like a week. Yeah. Law enforcement insisted that the Teacher's Pet podcast had no impact on the renewed vigor they put into Lynn Dawston's investigation, and argue the podcast actually compromise their investigation and witness interviews. But investigators were listening to the weekly episodes and gleaning new information. Yeah, we haven't got any leads or any arrests in thirty six years, but the podcast is hampering our investigation. Okay. Headley was digging up new evidence and interviewing important witnesses with each new episode. Lynn's family was listening to. They learned new details and angrily contacted law enforcement, demanding the follow up on these new leads. Damian Pohle was listening too.

27:10 He called Headley and told him that he had never seen Chris's handwritten statement which was mentioned on the podcast, and that if he had seen it, he would have arrested him immediately. We'll be back after a break. In August nineteen eighty two, Chris Hand wrote a statement to police that was lost and later recovered by Hedley. The statement reads quote Lynn and I have been having marital problems for approximately two years, mainly over her bank card spending and financial matters in general. Sorry I made a little snirky there, but that's really not what their problem was.

27:52 I left home for three days over Christmas and traveled north by myself, and I returned home on Boxing Day, having missed my wife and daughters and hoping to resolve our differences. All girlfriends have been contacted, girlfriends meeting Glynn's friends, no success. I've rung women's refuges at Manly and Dewey, the Salvation Army, and all possible family connections that have not received word from her. I placed an ad in the Telegraph to appear on March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty two, our wedding anniversary. It appeared a day late on March twenty seventh. I rang Royal north Shore Hospital staffing and was informed as sister el Simms worked in casualty. I drove through and spoke to a doctor I knew, who informed me that the sister Simms didn't fit my wife's description.

28:38 My father, mister sid Dawson, rang lifeline who contacted a Gosford refuge once again with no success. We both went to a marriage guidance counselor psychiatrist on Friday, eighth of January. Everything seemed fine when I dropped her back at work, we were both in particularly good spirits. We were holding hands and once again felt close. Later that night she appeared distressed and had difficulty coping with our youngest daughter. She seemed happy and had decided to go to the markets and meet me and the girls back at Northbridge baths. After twelve I dropped her off at Monavale. Everything seemed fine. Ling ranging the baths at about three pm, she said she was with friends, not to worry, it was her turn that she'd ring later that week. She arring the following Saturday and said she needed more time and wouldn't return home until she felt happy to do so. Prior to Christmas, Lynn had opened her own bank account and bank card. Statements for a January show that she made purchase at Katie's Narrabeen on twelfth January nineteen eighty two, and in February statement twenty seventh January nineteen eighty two.

29:40 The last contact I had with her was by phone on sixteen January nineteen eighty two. During their conversations with Chris, investigators found his story inconsistent, particularly about the alleged phone calls, which lacked detail or corroboration. They also found his relationship with Joanne suspicious. Nowhere and Chris's statement did he mention his relationship with her. One day, Headley Thomas drove to the Sunshine Coast to the beachside community near Cooloom, where Chris Dawson lived with his wife, Susan. Hadley felt intimidated to knock on the door. He knew he had the right house when he saw Chris's car parked in the driveway with the license plate twin two. Paul's car had the license plate.

30:23 Let me guess twin one. You are sharp, sharp as a nail. Yes. Later, Hedley called Chris in an attempt to interview him to get his side of the story. He was shocked when he answered the phone, Chris speaking, where's your Australian accent? I can't oh, good day, Chris. My name's Headley Thomas. I'm a journalist and I oh Hedley. I know of you, Yes, Chris, I'd really like to have a chat to hear your views on this. My Australian accent. It's impact, I know it really is, Hedley. I've spoken to journalists before, and articles and television shows and everything coming out have not been fair in their interpretation of what I've said, totally changed everything I've said. I'm sorry, I've lost all my faith in journalism, so so so sorry.

31:08 My answer is no, I won't be speaking to you. Sorry. Once the podcast began airing, Hedley was deluged with messages from people coming forward with new information. Hadley was overwhelmed, fielding calls, emails, and texts all day. He was receiving so much new information that he was having to constantly rework the podcast episodes he'd already written and recorded. Hedley wasn't sleeping, he was eating badly and drinking too much. His stress and anxiety were an overdrive. So I'm just laughing because I'm like to feel your pay Haadly. Yeah, he had no time for his wife or children. His wife went to stay with their son, who was in college in Copenhagen. After fourteen episodes had been released, Hedley took a break with the amount of new information he was receiving, he needed to sort through it before he could finish the podcast. Lynn's family was pleased that her case was finally receiving the investigation it deserved, and they were very grateful to be supported by the public. Anne Hedley.

32:07 The Teacher's Pet podcast is sixteen episodes, and you haven't listened to it, have you? No? I listened to it. I don't think I listened to the whole thing like years ago, and I was very invested in the story. It is a little muddled when you listen to it because you can kind of tell like he had to rework it and some things are repeated and what I mean great investigative journalism. Yeah. The house on Gilwinga Drive changed hands many times over the years. One of the owners had installed extensive landscaping on the property and recalled the earth being very rocky and hard to dig, except for one area under the girl's bedroom windows, where phil dirt had been laid during the construction of the foundation of the house. A former neighbor said, quote, because the guy next door was building, he put over three meters of fill dirt in the backyard at Chris's BHS. It was good for him to get rid of his excavations. But I think she's under there somewhere. That's the only thing I'm pretty positive about.

33:08 That area of the yard was known to flood. A subsequent owner had cement poured over the area and built a retaining wall. Over the years, the footprint of the house had been expanded, making excavating for Lynn's body challenging without destroying the structure of the house. So once the podcast began airing, wealthy benefactors came forward and they were like, let's just buy the property and we will just tear down the house and we'll dig up the whole property. Wow, that's incredible. Isn't it. Yeah, but it's never happened. Police received information that the Dawson's in ground swimming pool was being built at the time of Lynn's disappearance, although in reality it had already been in place for years, but the landscaping hadn't been completed. In April nineteen ninety nine, ground penetrating radar was used around the pool area. Pavers and gardens surrounding the homes in ground swimming pool were torn up. The ground was softer here because of the pool construction. If Lynn was buried somewhere on the property, this was the most likely place.

34:11 Well, there were actually to the soft soil underneath the girl's bedroom windows or this area by the pool. Okay, the rest of the property was very rocky and allegedly impossible to really bury someone properly, gotcha. Several items were found in areas where the radar suggested that the earth had been disturbed, including toys and a juice box with an expiration date of nineteen eighty two. So it's strange that there is a juice box and toys buried under the soil. Here, I mean, I suppose, but you know, it could have just been something left in the yard that got covered up and over the years. How did toys get covered up? Like, I don't know how deep it was buried or whatever.

34:52 I mean stuff, you know, it's how archaeologists they find stuff right that is underneath the soil that just was left there. Among the found items was a pink knitted cardigan known to be a favorite of Lind's, with twenty two slits in the arms, as if the wearer had been fending off an attacker wielding a knife. Wow. The sweater had fallen apart over time into several pieces. Blood might have been present, but tests were inconclusive. So Damian Lone remember our investigator. He took the sweater and he brought it all the way to the United States. He carried it on to the airplane because he wanted the FBI to test it.

35:33 Oh wow. The whole pool area was not excavated. Many people think that Chris may have initially buried Lynn near the pool and then later moved her body. The tennis courts at the high school were being installed at the time, and some think that Lynn might be there. Chris and Paul had worked as garbage men part time and would know their way around a landfill and the best time to dump a body undetected. After the release of the Teacher's Pet podcast, police received harsh criticism for their lack of effort in Lynn's case. New South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller defended their actions, quote, the work that has been happening in the last couple of years has been extraordinary. We used ground penetrating radar in nineteen ninety, ninety one, ninety nine and twenty sixteen. We dug. In two thousand and twenty sixteen, we had a burial site expert come and mapped the entire block. In twenty fifteen we've had cadaver dogs there as well. In September twenty eighteen, the most extensive dig yet was performed. Four areas were searched, three in the backyard and the fourth around the pool.

36:39 New technology was used to revisit a number of anomalies in the ground. After six days of digging, it was called off. Nothing of interest was found. The soft soil under the bedroom windows was determined to be soft only on the surface. Lynn's body was not there. Police don't believe that she is on the property. Cadaver dogs also searched the grounds of Paul Dawson's home and the surrounding woods, but no digs or radar scans were conducted there. It's really disappointing that they weren't able to find any remains, because it just seemed like that was the most likely thing. But finally, finally, on Wednesday, December fifth, twenty eighteen, thirty six years after the disappearance of Lynette Joy Simms Dawson, Chris Dawson, now seventy was arrested and charged with her murder in Queensland while wearing shorts and flip flops. It's a nice little detail there. He was extradited too.

37:35 Well, they call them thongs in Australia. It would be thongs, yeah, which is confusing to American listeners because it's. That puts a picture in your mind that you don't read. Yeah, you don't want to picture Chris Dawson in a thong. He was extradited to New South Wales to face charges. His older brother Peter, represented him. Peter must have been like, you must have been pretty old. Yeah. Bail was set at one point five million dollars, which he posted. Chris Dawson's lawyers argued that it was impossible for him to receive a fair trial after the Teacher's Pet podcast had been heard by so many Australians, but the trial went on before it began. Headley turned over his trove of research materials to investigators. In the year of creating his podcast, he had amassed a lot of evidence and interviews that law enforcement hadn't seen. Hedley was required to temporarily remove The Teacher's Pet from streaming platforms in Australia to prevent influencing the potential juror pool and to prevent Chris Dawson's defense from claiming that he would not be able to receive a fair trial, a move that frustrated many Australians who hadn't yet finished the series.

38:44 I'd be really mad, I know, like, oh. My podcast is going to get so much attention now you got to take it down. Yeah. It had received plenty of attention. International listeners were still able to listen and it remained a smash hit. Fearing a biased jury due to the popularity of the Teacher's Pet podcast, Chris elected to have a judge alone or bench trial. Justice Ian Harrison presided over the trial, which began on May twenty second, twenty twenty two, in the New South Wales Supreme Court, three and a half years after Dawson's arrest. Among the witnesses was Marilyn Dawson. She testified about Lynn's strength as a woman. Quote, I wanted her to stand up and be counted about her home and her children and her marriage. She was a strong girl, a strong personality. She was a nurse.

39:32 She saw a lot of suffering and saving of lives. She was very worldly, she had a strong opinion about things. I don't know why she didn't have a strong personality to stand up to her marriage. When I spoke to her in the car, I thought that she was devastated and perhaps a little flat and maybe mentally not coping. Unquote. Paul Dawson testified that on Christmas nineteen eighty one, he saw Lynn at his parents' house, and she seemed happy and excited about her and Chris's future. Remember that Joanne and Chris are hiding in a closet at his house at this time, and He's like, Oh, she was so happy about our marriage. The defense argued that women do leave on their own free will to start a life somewhere new. They cited as evidence the case of a woman who had left her family some sixty years earlier, relocated to New Zealand, and started a new family. Her first family only learned of this after her death. Ironically, the woman mentioned was the mother of Peter Dawson's first wife. The defense also claimed that if law enforcement had investigated Lynne's disappearance in nineteen eighty two, they would have retrieved important phone and bank records to corroborate Chris's account. It's just so funny. So much of their defense was like, well, these records would prove Chris's innocence, but you know, obviously they would have probably proved his guilt.

40:54 I know I've heard this at other trials as well, where that happens, and it's like, it's good for the defense, even though you think it would be better for the prosecution. Hadley Thomas was called as a witness by the defense. He was accused of producing his podcast for fame and fortune rather than seeking justice for Lynn, and turning a blind eye to any evidence that refuted Chris Dawson's guilt. He denied the claims. His methods and motives were questioned at nauseum. The defense even brought up his grandmother's disappearance as evidence of his bias. Damian Lune was called to testify. The defense berated him for not following up on the alleged sightings of Lynn. The final witness called by the defense was a man who had met a woman in a bar some thirty six years prior. The woman told him that she'd left her husband and children after she'd discovered that he'd been unfaithful. She told him that she was so angry she left without proper identification or a suitcase.

41:50 Years later, he'd seen a television program about Lynn and Chris Dawson and realized that the woman he'd met was Lynn. Hmmm, do you believe that story? No? I don't. I mean I believe maybe he believed it. Yeah. The judge considered the case for five and a half hours before he announced his verdict. The evidence does not reveal how mister Dawson killed Lynett Dawson. It does not reveal whether he did so with the assistance of anyone else or by himself. It does not reveal where or when he did so, Nor does it reveal well and at Dawson's. Body is now. The charge of murder in this trial is unsupported by direct evidence. The case against mister Dawson is wholly circumstantial.

42:33 It is therefore necessary that the Crown persuaded me beyond reasonable doubt. Not only that mister Dawson's guilt is a rational inference, but that is the only rational inference that the circumstances would enable me to droll. The circumstantial evidence in this case, considered as a whole is persuasive and compelling. None of the circumstances considered alone can establish mister Dawson's guilt, but when regard has had to then combined force, in no doubt, I'm satisfied, beyond reasonable doubt that the only rational inference that the circumstances enabled me to draw is that Lynette Dawson died or in about eight January nineteen eighty two as the result of a conscious and voluntary act committed by mister Dawson with the intention of causing her death. Christopher Michael Dawson on the charts that are about eight January nineteen eighty two. It play for you or elsewhere in the state of New South Wales. You did murder Lynette Dawson. I find you guilty. You mes, sit down, mister Dawson. Will be necessary for you to take him into custody.

43:47 You have to go forty years, four months and one day after Lynette disappeared, she finally received justice. That is so it's amazing that it finally happened. Never give up and it's just heartbreaking. Cheers could be heard in the neighboring overflow courtroom as the verdict was read on Thursday, November tenth, twenty twenty two, before the judge delivered Chris Dawson's sentence. One's brother Greg and her sister Pat each gave victim impact statements. Also in the courtroom to face her father and honor her mother. With Chanel Dawson, now forty five years old, older than her mother ever got to be, she bravely gave an emotional statement to the riveted courtroom. Every teary eye in the courtroom was poised on her, except those of her father, who cowardly looked at the floor in front of him.

44:38 I'm going to try to read this, but I might need you to take over. The night you removed our mother from our lives was the night you destroyed my sense of safety and belonging in this world. For many decades to come, almost all of the love, nurturing and kindness vanished from my life because of your selfish actions. We will never see her again. We will never hear her tell us that she loves us, feel hold us, or hear her laugh. There are not enough words in the English language to describe the impact of forty one years of deceit, trauma, being silenced, and gaslighted the absence of a loving mother, grandmother, abusive unloving replacements, emotional and psychological abuse, the fact that the father I love and trusted is capable of such a heart wrenchingly selfish, brutal, and misogynistic act. She's no longer any use to you, a hindrance with no value. You can coldly dispose of her in such utter disrespect. This has affected my trust in men and subconsciously every relationship I've had. For many years, I worked through abandonment issues, believing that our beautiful mother left on her own accord, and I had believed what you said because she didn't love us anymore. Most, if not every day, I feel the absence of her from our lives. No mother to cuddle me when I'm hurt or sad, No mother to love, help or advise me.

45:56 No mother to be a role model for my own motheringly home cooked meals to return home to, No family gatherings, birthdays or Christmas to look forward to. You took that away, and so much more you had no right to. You are not God. It hurts me deeply to think of you in jail for the rest of your life. But I also choose not to carry your burdens anymore. I need my life back, my daughter needs me back, and not overwhelmed by grief anymore. This is how I will honor my beautiful mother, the torture of not knowing what happened or what you did with her body. Please tell us where she is. I hope you finally admit the truth to yourself and give us the last bit of closure. We need to make at least partial peace with this horrible tragedy.

46:40 That was very, very well said. Yeah. On Friday, December second, twenty twenty two, Chris Dawson, seventy four, was sentenced to twenty four years in prison with a non parole period of eighteen years. The judge was required to use sentencing guidelines from nineteen eighty two. The penalty for murder forty years ago was less severe than it is today. The law has since been changed to require defendants from older cases to be sentenced using current guidelines. Chris's brother Peter was there, but Paul was not. He only attended one day of the trial. Later, at another trial, Chris was found guilty of carnal knowledge exploiting a child for sex. An additional three years was added to his sentence.

47:23 The earliest he will be eligible for parole is August twenty forty, when he is ninety two years old, although a new law in New South Wales called Lynn's Law states that before his release, he would have to divulge where he buried Lynne's body. No body, no parole. The new law was proposed by Lynn's family. What a great tribute to have that law named after her. Yeah, it is, and it really is a smart idea. Like it. I like it too, It's wonderful. After the verdict, Greg Simms requested the media refrain from calling his sister Lynette Dawson. Her name was Lynette Joy Simms, and that is how she should be remembered. He spoke from the steps of the courthouse, wearing a pink shirt for his sister. Quote. I think having a murder verdict brings a conclusion to one part of the story, but it's extremely hard to think of why couldn't he just bloody walk away. We could have had our sister Unquote.

48:17 He was grateful he'd never have to see Chris Dawson again. But Greg gave one last plead to Chris Dawson. This is a milestone in our journey about the kidie for Lynn. However, the journey is not complete. She is still missing. We still made to bring her home. We would ask Chris Dawson divided him himself to finally do the decent thing and allow us to bring Lynnheim to a peaceful wrist, finally showing her some dignity she deserves. And here's Hedley also speaking from the courthouse steps. There's a lot of criticism that's been appropriately made of the police investigation early. You know, Lynn Dawson was missing for eight years and just treated as a runaway mother for that time when the circumstances were so gravely suspicious.

49:14 It wouldn't happen today. If something like that happened today, there would be as Damian Loon, who picked up the investigation and did such an amazing job with it from ninety ninety eight, as he said, there would be a strike force that would be set up today and there would be very strong focus on the spouse. But that didn't happen, and I think that's a reflection of society and how far things have come. Help Hadley feels good about his role in getting justice to this because it seems like it probably never would have occurred if not for his podcast exactly. Gregg's wife, Maryland said, quote, no sentence is long enough for taking someone's life unquote with that wholeheartedly, Yeah, I do too, especially when it's premeditated, which it obviously was. Pat Simms said, quote, I can never forgive Chris for the way he treated Lynn, but also for the cruel and callous way he treated our distressed and grieving mother. Quote. Chris Dawson appealed his conviction.

50:19 He ran out of money and is now represented by a public defender. One aspect of his appeal argued that the conviction was unfair because he was at a forensic disadvantage. Over the forty years since Lynn's disappearance, witnesses had died, such as the woman who had seen Lynn at the fruit stand. His attorney also argued that bank and phone records supporting his claims that Lynn had called him and had used her bank card could no longer be corroborated. Or you could say he was at a forensic advantage because so much time had passed. Yeah, that's what I believe. The appeal went on to say that Lynn had been under great mental duress. And could have left on her own accord, and that she knew her children would be in good care with their father. Right.

51:05 I'm not defending Chris, but his daughters both say that he was a good father. Yeah, but it sounds like they both believe now that he did it. I know the one definitely did because she spoke about it. But do both daughters believe that he is guilty. We'll wrap that up in a few minutes. Remember when Damian Luhne was handed Lynn's cold case file with one piece of paper in it because the rest of the file had been lost. It was mentioned in the appeal that there may have been exculpatory evidence in that lost file. So again this notion that there's some sort of exculpatory evidence and there is none. Yeah. It was also mentioned in Chris's appeal that he was recently diagnosed with dementia and prison would be exceptionally hard for him.

51:47 Oh poor god. Yeah, I know. He also has bad hips and knees due to his rugby playing years. So they're making the argument that he shouldn't have to go to prison because he has bad hips and knees and it would be hard on him. Right, And the dementia piece, Yeah, which I don't have empathy for Chris, But I don't know how prisons handle aging inmates. Yeah, I don't know either. In June twenty twenty four, the three judge panel of the Court of Criminal Appeals dismissed his appeal. They said they had no doubt of his guilt. One judge wrote in their opinion quote, the circumstantial case against the applicant was compelling and there is no reasonable doubt as to the applicant's guilt unquote.

52:32 Joanne Curtis has had a very hard life. She deeply regrets becoming involved with Chris Dawson in her part in destroying a marriage. She said that Lynn Dawson treated her with more kindness than anyone else in her entire life. Joanne was interviewed extensively for Rebecca Hazel's book The Schoolgirl, Her Teacher and his wife, but later cut ties with Rebecca before the book was published for an undisclosed reason. I read Rebecca Hazel's book. It was a really great wolcom and it is largely told from Joanne's perspective, and it was interesting to hear her perspective. Rebecca Hazel was heartbroken when she cut ties with her. Joanne earned a degree in psychology and has worked with victims of domestic violence.

53:17 She has never remarried. I don't think she's even had a close relationship with another man. I think she kind of swore off men after Chris Dawson. Joanne maintains a close relationship with her daughter and her grandchildren. She lives in Sydney. Raised by their father. Lynn's daughters, Chanelle and Sharon stood by him. He was the only parent they had after jo Anne left. Chanelle says he was a good father, but she pined for a loving mother. Chris told the girls that their mother had left them and joined a religious cult. He told them that she left them because she didn't love them anymore, which is like the cruelest thing ever, Like you, you killed her and then you and I don't well, maybe he did realize how painful that was for them, but you carry that sort of pain with you the rest of your life is really horrible. All of Lynde's pictures were taken down and they weren't allowed to ask about her. There was a box pushed back into the deep corner of a closet that held a few pictures of Lynne that Chanell coveted.

54:15 She only dared look at it when no one else was around. Chris told him that Joanne was their real mother. As Chanell grew older, she began to question her father's involvement in Lyne's disappearance. She talked openly about her pain and abandonment issues with The Australian Woman's Weekly. Chanell left home at age seventeen and traveled the world she felt most at peace and nature, often sleeping under the stars. She joined hippie communes, living hand to mouth. She knew she'd never find her mother, but Chanell searched for being in comfort while she was plagued with depression, anxiety, and PTST. When she was nineteen, a psychic helpter see the truth about her father. Chanell wrote in her book My Mother's Eyes quote, once I started to see the lies I'd been told, it was to see where they ended. But facing the truth meant losing her sister, so she pushed the reality deep into her brain until she was ready to confront Chris. There was an alleged sighting of Lynn in an episode of Antique's Road Show filmed in Cornwall, England.

55:15 In two thousand and six, Chris called her and told her that she should go there and look for Lynn. Chanell admitted that she both loved and feared her father as an adult. She was sure he'd killed her mother, and she was afraid to lose both Chris and her sister, who never faltered in her support of him. To answer your question from a couple of minutes ago, Sharon supported Chris. Even through his trial and sure everything. Oh yeah. In twenty thirteen, detective Damian Loon asked Chanel if she would undergo hypnosis in an attempt to uncover more childhood memories from the time of Lynn's disappearance. She agreed. Here's a clip of Chanelle talking about the experience with sixty Minutes Australia.

55:58 What happened when you underwent the hypnosis. That was. Like, I could feel myself as a four and a half year old child again. I could feel the feelings that she felt at the time. It was really pretty profound. I believe I saw my sister and I in the back of a car of al sedation wagon and my mother slumped in the front. I believe I saw him shining headlights on a spot near the pool and digging. I believe that he buried her in that spot for that night, and then the next day, when he didn't have us kids, moved her somewhere else. When you say you saw him digging, I mean your memory is of shovels.

56:43 Being pulled out of the back of the car and headlights and digging. It was like I regressed back to a four and a half year old kind of thing. But I was still there and present in the room, listening to myself. You know. I guess people could question what's in my subconscious? How has that created? How much is that actual memory? Do you think they're true memories? I think they are. Yes. I find hypnosis so fascinating. It really makes me. I really don't know whether I believe that or not, or whether it was just something, but it is. It is The possibility that you could find some area of your mind that you know it's just below the surface is really interesting. It's crazy. The Teacher's Pet podcast changed Chanelle when it came out in twenty eighteen. Emboldened infurious, she made the brave decision to testify against her father. It ruined any remaining relationship they had. Although Chanelle had one last communication with Chris on Father's Day twenty eighteen.

57:42 I won't live a life based on lies, nor will I keep subjecting myself to emotional manipulation and control. You have dishonored our mother so terribly, and also my sister, And though I threw all of this no more, one day I will forgive you for removing her so selfishly from our lives. Perhaps one day you will take responsibility for your actions and the effect they've had on so many people, most of all your daughters and granddaughters. His response was breathtaking. You are clearly very lonely and depressed in the life you have. Chold you know very little about what was going on in my life or your sisters. It is your adult life, now forty one, with a child and without a partner, that has clearly caused this terrible depression. We all, unfortunately have to live with the choices we make. I own my poor choices, and you never need to remind me of them.

58:39 Oh, so it's his daughter's fault because she's not married and has a child. That's why she's so depressed. It's not his fault. He had nothing to do with it. Chanelle told sixty minutes. It was difficult growing up with out Lynn. She was not allowed to talk about her quote A trainer to dwell in self pity, But I guess I do sometimes dip in there, especially on Mother's Day when I see everybody out there with her moms. She did say that Chris was a loving dad. Quote he taught as tennis and played in the pool with us. I would say he's got a side to him that's a lot like a lovable, adorable puppy dog. There is a huge conflict in that, especially people who are quite angrily and rightfully so, wanting answers about my mom. Yet there's still that part of me that really loves my dad and feels protect above him. She said her father looked directly into her eyes and told her that he had nothing to do with Lynne's disappearance, and she wishes that she could believe him. Sharon believes her father is innocent.

59:33 Sharon was hounded by the media for a comment while they were camped out in front of her house. She angrily gave brief remarks in the driveway of her home. She said, quote, I don't trust the media. It's a witch hunt and I'm over it. She said the media misrepresented her father and that they had it in for him. She said growing up was quote shit because her stepmother was a bitch who screwed over her father. She made up all these false lies and then she screwed my dad over. She's got a li with that. You don't want to be around all this negativity and this falseness. I forgot to use an Australian accent. Darnt it. Two psychics told Chanelle that she might find her mother's remains by water or under some rocks. She felt compelled to search for her, but she hasn't found her. Of course, she feels closest to Lynne while she is in nature.

1:00:21 She seeks the same closure as her uncle. Greg, your dad's still holding a secret. What would it mean for you if he finally came clean? Ah, that would be incredible. I don't think he's going to personally. I just think he believes his own lies and he won't admit it. He might come to have to admit it to himself after sitting in prison for some time, but I don't think it will be anytime soon. But does it feel like you can never really get closure until you found out what happened. To Himma, Yeah, definitely, that's still a very big pace of the puzzle. The truth is what for me brings peace.

1:01:08 Now. A single parent who a young daughter herself, Chanell wrote a letter to Joanne as part of her recovery and part it reads quote to Joanne, I see this letter as a necessary step towards forgiveness, and so I write to try to bring healing to myself, to neutralize the toxic poison that I feel inside, to let you know the ways that actions and choices have affected me. I want you to know that after all these years, I'm still affected, as is my mothering and general character, which is at times harsher than necessary because of the patterns of behavior and programs passed on by you. These are my memories as I remember them. Perhaps they were happy ones too, but if they were, they have slipped away amidst the harshness of trauma. We were good and kind children and didn't deserve how we were treated by you.

1:01:54 We never even dared talk back to you, defy you in any way. I know you didn't have a good upbringing and there were other reasons behind your treatment of us. You were very young when you started to have an affair with my father and then suddenly had full time care of us. End quote. Chanell has had a conversation with Joanne and she said that she forgives her and Chanelle does see Kristin occasionally. Oh, I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, We'll rest in peace to Lynette. Lynette Joy Simms was funny and kind. Her sister said she was affectionate and a little cheeky. She was a loving mother and a loyal wife, daughter, sister, and friend. Her family asked that she no longer be referred to as Lynn Dawson.

1:02:35 So that's why we titled the episode the way we did. We're gonna play one last clip of Damian Lone because I really like his voice and I feel like he summed it up very well. It's not a lot of being the footy when your favorite time school is a traw and you get up there and you know, I punched the air and it's all good. It's not a winner here. Lynn Dawson is not here. There's a family graving a loved one who's been found guilty of murder. There are the other parts of the family that have lost their mom lost their sister. We al were just comforted, consoled by the truth. That doesn't sum it up very nicely. I like that he uses a sports analogy because that helps people like me understand.

1:03:21 I think this in so many of these cases, like there's no happy ending even and I really hope lends remains are found somebody. It maakes me heart that you know she's alone out there somewhere. The Teacher's Pet podcast is loved and respected by many, but it's not without its critics. Some of the criticisms at his faced are that Hedley Thomas lacked journalistic and partiality and neutrality. Headley made up his mind pretty quickly that Chris Dawson was guilty and didn't investigate any other possible suspects or outcomes. We forgive him for that. He made a one sided, persuasive case for Dawson's guilt, which swayed public opinion. Headley became an advocate for Lynn and developed deep bonds with her family. While others may criticize him for this, I applaud his efforts to get justice for Lynn. Without the help of Headley, the podcast and the pressure listeners put on New south Well Wales law enforcement, Chris Dawson would likely never have been brought to justice.

1:04:19 One thing I learned when I took a film class in college, and I think the same is true for a podcast, is that a lot of people think that like a documentary or a podcast like this has to be completely neutral and unbiased, but that's really not the case. I mean, somebody has a point of view and they want to get that out there. As long as he didn't lie or make up things, I don't think there's anything wrong with the podcast advocating for you know, Chris's guilt and for helping to get justice for Lynn. Well, we definitely aren't journalists and we don't pretend to be right. Hedley seems like a very passionate man, and I just don't think he needed to he could or needed to take the emotion out of it because it I wasn't necessarily a journalistic endeavor. You know, it's telling a story and lacking empathy while telling the story, I don't think people would have loved it as much. Sadly, both Helena and Len Sims died in two thousand and one before there was justice for Lynn, and even the a in quest, so Helena didn't know that, you know, her case might have resolution someday. In twenty eighteen, New South Wales police launched an investigation called Strikeforce Southward into teacher sexual abuse of students in the nineteen eighties. In twenty twenty three, Chris Dawson's third wife, Susan, divorced him after thirty years of marriage. I'm not sure if this was a real divorce or not, or just you know, a severing of like legal ties so like she could save their assets. But it may have been real, But

1:05:50 I was just maybe a little dubious about that. Paul or none of the other teachers were ever charged with any sex crimes against the minor girls as far as I can tell, well, the only teacher other than Chris who was prosecuted for inappropriate conduct from Cromer High was a male art teacher who sexually abused young male students. Peter wain Scott was prosecuted for fourteen counts of drugging and sexually abusing children during and after school hours at his home. It's frustrating that I was going to ask you about whether Paul had any consequences for his actions, because it sounds like he did some awful things. He did some horrible things. They weren't the only ones.

1:06:30 I think we know more about the actions of Chris and Paul, but I think a lot of those teachers did really, really horrible things to young women. Actor Hugh Jackman was so riveted by the Teacher's Pet podcast he reached out to Headley Thomas. He was eight years old and living in Sydney when his own mother left abruptly and moved to England and another parallel to the podcast, students at his high school were also sexually abused by teachers, and before becoming an actor, he was a pe teacher in England and interesting, Yeah, I think it's he might be working with Hadley to make some sort of docuseries on this. Is that? What you call it a docuseries? Joanne is a polarizing figure in this story. Some say she was complicit in Lend's murder and was old enough to know not to get involved with a married teacher. What Others say she was a victim. What do you think?

1:07:24 I feel a lot of empathy for Joanne in this story. She was young, she was clearly groomed by Chris. We talked about it in part one. But I do have a bit of a problem the way she treated the two girls. Absolutely, like, you know, at least try to be nurturing and be a mother to them. But I have a lot of sympathy for her. I think she is a victim in this. You know, for sure, I agree completely. Do you think that if Chris had a jury trial that he would have been found guilty? I was thinking about that. I think he might have gotten off if he had a jury trial, because I mean, really, if you look at the hard physical evidence, there's none. There is none, It's all completely circumstantial. Having said that, I do completely believe that he's guilty, and I'm glad that justice was served.

1:08:10 Yeah, I absolutely agree. Could Chris be cunning enough to return to gilwing a drive to Mislead police and their search for Lin's remains? Could he have buried Linz somewhere along the way when he picked up Joe Anne from Southwest Rocks. I think on your second question, I think for sure he could have done that. I think one of the challenges Australia is there's so much open space and so much land. I think it would be pretty easy to hide a body somewhere that would never be found. That's horrible. Yeah, I don't know if he is cunning enough to like intentionally mislead the police and make them believe that her body was there. Maybe, but I don't know who knows. So this took place in nineteen eighty two. If it happened today, do you think people would instantly point fingers at Chris?

1:08:58 Yes? I do. I think so too. Where do you think Lynn could be buried? I guess you kind of just said I think anywhere. If most likely scenario is just somewhere out in the bush, somewhere very remote. If I had to say, I think that Lynn was hastily buried at the property on Bayeview until he could dig her up and you know, take her out somewhere in the bush. Because of the pink cardigan being buried. Yeah, that is really strange to me. And it had like you said, it had like slics slash marks. Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder if he like missed, like if he did that, if he just missed that. Well he maybe he could have. She was dug up at night and he missed the juice boxes and the toys and things like that, or when he remember when he would turn return to baby and he would run by, you know, the property. Maybe he realized that those things were in the ground, and maybe that even just those things being there made him nervous.

1:09:57 Yeah, could be. And and I focused a lot on Chanelle's story because it was so heartbreaking to me. And in a lot of these cases, we don't really know the impacts of the children, and Chanelle really has suffered. She seems like a lovely woman, but she has really struggled with her mental health and she's trying to move past it. But it's you know, it's really hard after you go through such a traumatic event to try to live a normal life. Yeah, I can't even imagine. But hearing her words and the quotes that we you included in the episode, really it made me feel good because it really feels like she is really dealing with it or trying her best, doing whatever she can to deal with it. And that's it's admirable that she has had the courage to try to confront all of this head on and try to deal with all these the trauma that she's been Yeah.

1:10:45 Absolutely, And I think she knows that forgiveness is an important part of her recovery. I also feel really bad for Sharon. It sounds like she's not dealing with it as much, or has it kind of bottled up or is in a little bit of denial. But she is obviously no less of a victim in this whole thing, and. It's really we just don't know her story as well. Yeah, Chanelle's lifestyle is I'm not sure what the right word is, Bohemian. She believes in like alternate methods of healing, and she's very spiritual and I think that has given her a lot of comfort over the years. One last thing before we go is I just I don't think Chris was a criminal mastermind. I think he got lucky. Yeah, I think so too. Because there was never an initial investigation, and I guess.

1:11:29 Yeah, heard, We've seen it in other cases. And I've always thought that if you if you kill someone and no one is really looking hard for them for a period like a fairly long period of time, if you can somehow arrange that, you're much more likely to get away with it. And I think for all the different circumstances you talked about, that's what happened in this case. Is you know, if people had focused much earlier on it, probably would have had a different outcome, and it's really sad that that didn't happen. It's interesting to think too, like if he would have been prosecuted like more quickly, he'd probably be a free man today. But he did get to live like his you know, forty years right in the prime of his life when Lynn.

1:12:11 Yeah, that makes me a little bit angry. Justice was done finally, but he got to live almost his whole life with no consequences at all. Yeah. We get a lot of messages from our listeners, and we're so grateful for all of them. But a lot of people are struggling and going through hard things. Yeah, and we're both getting emotional already, so we're thinking of you and we're sending our love and support. And the fact that our podcast gives anyone any joy and comfort just makes us so so happy he. Does, or it adds a distraction to your day to day worries and challenges. We got an email the other day from a listener who told us about her voice.

1:13:00 She has three boys, and one of the boys, an eight year old, was diagnosed with brain cancer when he was four years old, and she sent us a picture of him, and she told us a story about how when he's going into treatment for his cancer treatments, he on the way to the treatments, he plugs in, puts his headphones on, listens to Taylor Swift, and so she is left like there with nothing to distract her, and she worries, and so she sent us an email to thank us because our podcast and others helped to provide her a distraction from her life, and it just, oh, it got to both of us so much. Yeah, just made us feel you know, we're just putting out a little true crime podcast, but it definitely made us feel a responsibility to do as good of a job as we can for people like her and others who are listening and who are maybe struggling through hard times. So yeah, we just wanted to share that and just thank all of you because you really make what we do.

1:13:58 When you've made us better, You've made our lives better, and we're a mom and dad first, and you know, we just our hearts go out to all of you that are having a hard time, especially this time of year. If you're a regular listener of Love Mary Kill, you know that every month we donate at least twenty five percent of our earnings from ad revenues and from our patron program to a worthwhile cause. So we wanted to let you know that this month we made our donation to No Kid Hungry. No Kid Hungry is an amazing organization. It breaks my heart to think of any child, anyone, but especially children that might be struggling with hunger and not have enough food. So we're very proud to make this donation. We appreciate your support endlessly. So yesterday we made the Anzac biscuits and it got to me thinking about Australia and New Zealand.

1:14:48 You know, they are neighbors, yes, and I think they're obviously they're friendly with each other. But I was just wondering if it was like like a United States Canada type relationship or like a Michigan Oh I always type relationship, Like are they competitive or you know, does everyone just like, oh, we love the Kiwi's. Is that what you call that's what you call New Zealanders? I think so? Yeah. So if the Kiwis and the Aussies get along. So yeah, I don't It's a good question. I don't know, but I'm curious about the same. Very affable people talk. About them in the same breath. It's Australia, New Zealand. So I love Canadians. I think Canadians are great. I'm not sure if Canadians love Americans as much, but I always think they're I always feel good about having Yeah, and you know they they're always nice. And oh wait, we said this recently that Americans I think are actually like it was some sort of survey, like Americans are friendlier than.

1:15:48 I'm sure questioned at the time. We do question that a little bit. I like every Australian I've met pretty much. I'm trying to think of there's a reception much. I can't think of any exceptions. I like all of them as well. I don't really know any New Zealanders any Kiwis, but I think. A couple of people from New Zealand have reached out. I mean, everyone who reaches out to us is lovely. Yeah, except for like, but that's no, not even one percent. It's a very small amount, which is fine. Yeah, all right, So what are we going to do with the rest of our weekend? Are we just gonna gaze into each other's eyes lovingly? And seeing Christmas. We do like we do every weekend every Yeah, I think we need to go get a Christmas tree. You get a Christmas tree behind on that or behind.

1:16:32 Well, I'm so glad I decorated the house because I did get kind of busy, so at least that is done. So the tree is always kind of like, well, there's lights in every place in the house. So we're decorated, but we just don't have a tree. Yeah, I need to do some Christmas shoft Oh do you I do? I haven't started yet. You're good. Yeah, you've been bugging me about going to see Wicked. You won't shut up about it, so maybe we can do that. I would go see Wicked. I have not been bugging you about it. This is It's one of those that I'm like, I know everyone says it's great and so I will go see it, but I'm not, oh William excited about it. I mean, I don't want to bug you about it. I kind of I want to see it. I'm not dying to see it, but people do say it's life changing.

1:17:15 I am excited about two movies coming out on Christmas Day, So the Bob Dylan biopic, Yeah, and No Sparatu, which I miss really good traditional sort of vampire movies, and I think No Sparatu everything I've heard it's going to be really really good. You know. I think it's great when people take a day to themselves. I just you don't need to see anyone else. I know it can be an immersive experience and you can go by yourself. How about I go see Wicked with you? If you go see No Sparatu, I go with me. All right, Well, I see that's that's two movies for one and yeah. I think Wicked is longer.

1:17:55 Yeah, yeah, I think the Bob I really don't. It's kind of funny because there's really loves Bob Dylan's music, and you love Bob Dylan. I some a few of his songs, but his it just drains me. So I'm not dying to see it, but I think I would. I would pick that over nos Faratu. But maybe it's maybe it's gonna be great. Yeah, I'll go see both of them. If I have to see one of them by myself, I will. Well, we have wasted enough of your time today. That's it. That's it. Don't kill your husband. I don't kill your wife, Happy holidays to