Dec. 16, 2024

Lynette Joy Simms and Chris Dawson - Part 2

Lynette Joy Simms and Chris Dawson - Part 2
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In January 1982, Lynette Dawson, a loving wife and mother, vanished from the suburbs of Sydney, Australia. Her husband, Chris Dawson, a former professional rugby player and local celebrity, insisted that she left voluntarily. Lyn’s family and friends initially believed his story but as the years passed with no contact from Lyn, their suspicions of foul play grew. It wasn’t until decades later that a true crime podcast called The Teacher’s Pet reignited public interest in the case. Cries grew louder for a thorough investigation to finally be done which ultimately lead to justice for Lyn and her family.

Today's snacks from Finland (Thanks Jarna!): Fazer Alku Pehmeä Granolapala mustikka, Ruissipsi Makea Chili, Karl Fazer Milk chocolates, Finnish Flavours christmas liquorice mix

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you.

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I'm doing great? How are you?

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I'm great. I'm a woman at Christmas time, so I

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am calm and cool.

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Not much going on in your life, not much to do, Yeah, but.

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I wouldn't say bored.

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Yeah.

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Panic is just slowly starting to see you seep into myself.

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We haven't even gotten a Christmas tree, I know, and

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it's December seventh's I don't know.

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Yeah, I guess.

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Well this is going to be released you know what.

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Day, December sixteenth.

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Well, by then we will have a Christmas tree. Am

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my shopping. I'll probably be all done and wrapped and

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would be bacon cookies, seeing Christmas carols in the kitchen and.

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The beautiful vision you paint. I can't wait.

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It's going to be great. We'll be going to be

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built a snowman in the front yard. Great, it's going

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to be like a Norman rock Well seen here.

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Yeah, I can't wait for that. I'm looking forward to it.

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So our lovely listener friend, our dear friend Yarna from Finland,

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sent us a box of snacks.

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I am so excited about this.

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And it's been sitting in our kitchen counter for a

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few weeks while. So, yeah, we had a little break

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in our recording schedule.

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I skipped breakfast this morning, so I'm actually really hungry

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and really have been looking forward to this awesome, awesome

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I didn't. I didn't one hundred percent skip breakfast. I

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had an Zac biscuit, but that's all I had.

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You really liked those, didn't you? I mean we all did.

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The whole family was a big fan of those.

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Yeah they're really good.

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Yeah they were great. Was it harder this morning the

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Anzac biscuit?

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No, it was still pretty chewy.

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All right, So in this box we have Okay, so

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I don't know how to say these things, so please

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please give me some grace. But yeah, I'm not even

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gonna try. This looks like it's some sort of a granola,

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a granola type biscuit. Actually perfect for breakfast. It looks

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like the Aussi bites that you eat for breakfast. Sometimes

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they're blueberry flavored. Yeah here you say it.

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Do you think Do you think I speak Finnish? I

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don't speak Finish.

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So we have granola bites and then these look really yummy.

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Some these actually have what they are in English rye

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crisps with sweet chili. It's like a little crispy, kind

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of big Oldish type bite.

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Interesting.

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It looks really good, smells really good too, Okay. And

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then you're gonna like this a box of milk chocolate. Okay,

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I can't say that name, but that looks really yummy.

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And this one, I'm not so sure about it. It

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looks like it's Finnish licorice Christmas mix. Yeah, I think

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that part of the.

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World, like, yeah, people love licorice. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm

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not a licorice fan, but I'm going to try it.

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I'm going to Okay, I'm.

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Going to do it.

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We'll be right back. How fun is it to eat

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international snacks?

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I love it? Yeah, it's so fun.

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I love it so much too. Thank you so much, Yarna.

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She is the sweetest person. It's one of our biggest supporters.

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So we love you so much and we really appreciate

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you taking the effort for us. Yeah, but that said.

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I didn't care for the licorice, but I didn't hate

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it as much as I thought I would hate it.

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Okay, I feel badly, but I did not even try it.

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I am really not very happy with you about it.

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I know you're disappointed me. I just I can't. I

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really just do not like it at all, So I

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apologize for that. I'm sure I think our son loves

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black lid.

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Oh yeah, he'll probably like it.

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Yeah, he'll love it.

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Yeah.

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Everything else, though, I really I thought was amazing. I

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loved it.

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I thought the blueberry granola thing was good, wasn't I

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didn't love it. I liked it. Probably give it a six.

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Oh, i'd give it an eight.

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Is good. The chili, the rye crisps with sweet chili,

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I really like that.

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Those are those are delicious. I would buy those definitely.

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Yeah, very unique and interesting. And the chocolate was, yeah,

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it was amazing.

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I would give the rye crisp chilies. I would give

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those a ten out of ten. I love a crispy

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It's super crispy, but not like too crispy. And the

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chocolate was really delicious and creamy, and uh, yeah.

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Ten out of ten for that too, and I'm going

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to give the liquorice it too, because it was quite

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as bad as I thought it was.

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Oh wow, Okay, maybe I'll try it later, but.

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Oh okay, at least I didn't. It's okay, very disappointed,

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but it's okay.

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Can you imagine how lovely Finland is this time of year?

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But it's just beautiful.

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I know, it's kind of what I picture when I

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picture Christmas is Finland and reindeer. And I don't know,

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I don't know anything about Finland, but I'm sure it's beautiful.

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There's a lot of hooga.

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Yes exactly.

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I should have checked with Yarda before. We were just

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talking about whether or not Finland is considered a Scandinavian country,

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and apparently it isn't officially not.

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Part of the Scandinavian peninsula, but it's sometimes considered a

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Scandinavian country nor a country.

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Nice who good type lights?

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Yes, I'm sure they do.

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Are you ready for part two?

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I am really ready. I'm really anxious to find out

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what happens here, and I really hope that there is

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justice served, but I'm not feeling that confident.

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Would you like to give us a summary?

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I would in January nineteen eighty two, Lynette Dawson, a

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loving wife and mother, vanished from the suburbs of Sydney, Australia.

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Her husband, Chris Dawson, a former professional rugby player and

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local celebrity, insisted that she left voluntarily. Lynn's family and

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friends initially believed his story, but as the years passed

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with no contact from Lynn, their suspicions of foul play grew.

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The police barely investigated Lynn's disappearance. They believed that she

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had left voluntarily. Lynn's friends and family knew that was impossible.

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She'd never leave her husband or daughters. Two days after

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her disappearance, Chris moved his seventeen year old girlfriend, Joanne

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into his house. They were married two years later, but

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soon Chris became controlling and abusive to his new wife.

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I forgot to mention this during part one, but Joanne

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was referred to as j c or Ab in court

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documents because she was a miner at the time. Also,

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if you listen to the Teacher's Pet podcast, Joanne is

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referred to as jac or as Jenny in Headley's book,

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and Sharon is called Amy. I think he changed a

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lot of names, Okay, and I didn't because it's been

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so long, and if you were in Australia, you know

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who these people are. You know these are their real names.

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Right.

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Today's episode discusses sensitive topics including domestic violence, grooming, and

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the sexual abuse of minors. These subjects maybe distressing for

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some listeners, Please listen with care. In nineteen ninety, after

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six years of marriage, any love that had existed between

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Joanne and Chris had long since evaporated. As Joanne grew older,

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she came to understand that Chris had begun grooming her

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when she was just fifteen years old. Their toxic relationship,

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built on manipulation and deception, became increasingly volatile. Over time.

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Chris's behavior turned more controlling and abusive, leaving Joanne in

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constant fear for her safety, and one terrifying incident, during

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a heated argument, Chris punched the windshield of their car

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with such startling force that it cracked.

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You would have to punch a windshield really, really hard

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to make it crack, and I can't imagine what that

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would do to your fist either.

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Began bringing school age girls around to their home to

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swim in their pool, repeating the cycle Joanne was afraid

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she was going to end up like Lynne. She longed

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for freedom and peace for herself and her daughter. After

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wasting years of her youth in a dysfunctional marriage. She

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was scared to leave Chris. She'd only held one part

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time job in her life during high school and had

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no money of her own. She tried to squirrel a

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little money away from the small allowance that Chris gave her.

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On February first, nineteen ninety, twenty six year old Joanne

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left Chris with five year old Kristen in tow and

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never looked back. Twelve year old Channel and ten year

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old Sharon were again motherless, not that Joanne had been

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much of a mother to them. Chris was heartbroken and

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tried to win her back, but she was done. Although

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the situation was an ideal, she and Kristin moved in

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with her mother, but at least she was out of

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Chris's grasp. It was important to Joanne to make amends

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with Lynde's family. She asked a musual friend to arrange

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a meeting. Helena at first refused. Helena, being Lynn's mom,

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she was holding a grudge against Joanne for not allowing

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her to see her granddaughters, but eventually her family talked

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her into it by reminding her that she might have

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important information to share with them. The meeting was cordial.

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Joanne felt as if a weight had been lifted from

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her after the hour's long meeting. It was only after

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this meeting with Joanne that Helena began to question Chris.

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So this is years later, and Helena had still really

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held out hope prized to hear that it was an

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important step in Joanne's healing process to apologize to the

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Simms family. Soon, Joanne went to the police to tell

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them that they should investigate Chris Dawson for Lynne's murder,

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and they might want to begin by digging up the

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ground around the pool at to Gilwinga Drive. Shortly after

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Joanne left, Chris met his third wife, a teacher named Sue.

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They were married two years later in Fiji. Sue taught

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science at Saint Brendan's Catholic Boys School, while Chris continued

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to teach pe at Saint Ursula's Girls College. Sue had

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young twins, a boy and a girl. It's unclear of

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Chris formally adopted them, but they used the surname Dawson

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in school.

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I'm surprised he would marry someone who was sounds like

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she was not. I don't know how much white is young,

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but she was a teacher, so she wasn't like still

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in school.

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Yeah, I think she was younger than him, but I'm

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not sure how much younger. Prompted by the information that

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Joanne had shared with them, finally, on January fifteenth, nineteen

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ninety one, the New South Wales Police traveled to Queensland

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and paid a visit to Chris Dawson. During the interview,

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he claimed that Joanne was trying to slander him because

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of an upcoming custody hearing. Chris maintained that January ninth,

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nineteen eighty two, was the last time that he saw Lynn.

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He claimed that they had attended marriage counseling, then came

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home and had a romantic evening together. The next morning,

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January ninth, Chris dropped Lyn off at the bus station

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in Mona Vale at seven a m. And he said

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that is the last time that he saw her. She

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was going to do some Christmas returns and later she

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was going to meet Chris, the children and Helena at

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the baths then called him at the baths on January ninth,

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and allegedly three more times over the week, and that

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was the last time he ever heard from her. Barbara Cruz,

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Lynn's friend and boss, said quote, I think what happened

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with them. He's a very handsome man. Both the Dawson

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boys were very handsome boys. Well they were twins, they

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were models, and she was a very attractive girl when

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they married. So when this is something like twelve years later,

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she'd gotten a little bigger. She still had a gorgeous smile,

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and it was still I would say, a lovely girl,

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but wasn't model material. And I think maybe Chris was

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about the looks at that stage. It should have been

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a whole lot more. She'd become a mum and not

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the model wife that maybe he still wanted. Detective Damien

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Lune was a scientist Lindn's case in nineteen ninety eight.

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The case had gone cold when Damien was handed Lynd's

238
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case file. If you could call it a file, it

239
00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.480
contained only one piece of hate. The rest of the

240
00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:59.200
file was missing. The investigation up to that point had

241
00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.399
been neglected and bungled. Any gathered evidence had been lost,

242
00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.879
including financial statements and insurance information. The New South Wales

243
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:10.440
police during this time were known to be corrupt and

244
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:15.799
engaged in money laundering, bribery, destroying or withholding evidence, and fraud.

245
00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.960
Key witnesses were known to be beaten. Chris and Paul

246
00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:23.080
were friends with police officers. They'd coached the police rugby

247
00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.399
teams and often played with them over the years. Could

248
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it be that they were protecting Chris boy?

249
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.360
I would hope not, but does make you wonder.

250
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.679
Damien never gave up finding the truth. It was his

251
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:38.600
perseverance that prompted two coronial inquests. But one of the

252
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.639
biggest mysteries is why the investigation halted and lagged for

253
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:47.440
years when not all leads had been explored. Critical interviews,

254
00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.799
such as those with Lynn's family and coworkers, were never conducted.

255
00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:55.000
Although Damien's work was pivotal in Lynd's case, Pat Simms,

256
00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:59.399
Lynne's sister, thinks he wasted a decade he never formally

257
00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:03.559
interviewed Lena, who was very eager to help. In nineteen

258
00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.759
ninety nine, he went to Queensland to talk with Paul Dawson.

259
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.200
Paul told Damien that around the time of Lynn's disappearance,

260
00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.840
he Marilyn and their girls were on a camping holiday.

261
00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:19.399
Was that a coincidence or a convenience? January eighth, nineteen

262
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.639
eighty two, was the last time that Lynn Is seen alive.

263
00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.840
Somewhere in early January. I think it was January fourth,

264
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.879
Paul and Maryland and the kids went camping. And remember

265
00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:33.000
that Chris is picking up Joanne on January tenth.

266
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:34.000
She was on a camping trip.

267
00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.720
She was on a camping trip, but it was further up.

268
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.080
But Chris would have passed by where Paul and Marilyn

269
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.799
and the girls were. Okay, So, knowing how close the

270
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.080
twins were, do you think that Chris would have just

271
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:48.360
driven by or do you think he would have stopped

272
00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:50.679
and seen Paul on the kids.

273
00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.840
I would definitely think he would, so, which I'm sorry,

274
00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:56.960
what day did he drive up to pick up Joanne.

275
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.360
We think it's January tenth, so it was.

276
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.159
Like two days after after Lynn disappeared.

277
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.039
Okay, So the thought being that possibly Chris could have

278
00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:07.919
taken their body.

279
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.399
Yeah, and Paul.

280
00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.440
Paul could have helped him marry her body somewhere along

281
00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:13.759
the way.

282
00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:15.879
Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. I mean, I was thinking

283
00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.159
about that anyway that I wondered if Paul was involved,

284
00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.879
because obviously they're so close and do everything together, you

285
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:23.720
would think he might be involved as well.

286
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.360
Paul was usually the brains of the two. It's hard

287
00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:31.120
to imagine that Chris would have done anything to Lynn

288
00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.440
without him knowing. Yeah, and was that their plan? Like

289
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.480
Paul was like, well, I'm not going to be here,

290
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.200
so I can you know I can have an alibi?

291
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.759
And yeah, maybe so.

292
00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.960
Paul asked a very good question of Damien during the interview.

293
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.519
He asked why hadn't he been questioned years earlier? There

294
00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:53.679
was no response. In nineteen ninety nine, as Damien's investigation intensified,

295
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.159
Chris and Paul's phones were tapped. Law enforcement was hoping

296
00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.679
to catch them talking about Lynn's case after the investigation escalated,

297
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.799
but they never implicated themselves.

298
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.879
They implawed, something's happened to Lean and that you had

299
00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:10.080
you had to know, you soking someone come to LENI

300
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.120
is are they going to search the property and do

301
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:13.840
sorts of things?

302
00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:20.200
And oh, so lucky them, you know, I called Alan

303
00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.440
was some way with a whole new lave. Something happened

304
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.919
only when she could be anyway.

305
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.120
So that was Chris and Paul talking on the phone.

306
00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.840
Yeah, it's like they knew that the phones were being tapped.

307
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:32.960
Yeah, it does kind of make you wonder.

308
00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:35.000
I wonder how I would I would guess that was

309
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.960
very uncommon. Do you have your phones tapped?

310
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:39.000
I would think so too.

311
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.200
If we are to believe that Lynn Willingly left a baby,

312
00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:44.960
surely over the years someone would have come forward with

313
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.960
a story of her being a coworker, a neighbor or

314
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.679
a friend. But no one had ever come forward in

315
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.480
all the years that Lynn had been missing with a

316
00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.279
verifiable account. Here's Damian Lone.

317
00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.000
She's never gone I have a science. She's never a

318
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.120
plowed for passport, she has never plowed for Middi kakot

319
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.039
a credit cod she doesn't bank with anybody.

320
00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:08.440
She's a richeson nurse.

321
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:14.600
She's not riches in any stitle territory in Australia. And

322
00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:18.759
she's just basically been tagn off the planet, never to

323
00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:19.399
be sent again.

324
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.799
His voice makes me tear up. It's such a good voice.

325
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.679
The investigation was difficult and problematic because so much time

326
00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.080
had passed. There was no forensic evidence, no body, no blood,

327
00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.399
no fingerprints. Although no body prosecutions have become more common,

328
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.840
they are more difficult to get a conviction. So much

329
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.279
time had passed. Even if she was buried somewhere, the

330
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.039
ground would have plants would have been growing over it,

331
00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.799
and just any lead I think would have been hard

332
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:51.519
to follow up on.

333
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:52.320
Yeah, for sure.

334
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.639
A notable Australia no body prosecution case is the mcculcan case,

335
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.840
which is one of Australia's oldest cold cases. Barbara mcculchin

336
00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:05.039
and her two daughters, Vicki thirteen and Leanne eleven, disappeared

337
00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:09.079
from their Brisbane home on January sixteenth, nineteen seventy four.

338
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.880
The case remained a mystery for decades. Barbara's ex husband,

339
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.920
Billy mcculchin, was involved in organized crime. She was believed

340
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.720
to have knowledge of his criminal activities, including arson connected

341
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:25.240
to the infamous Whiskey Agogo nightclub fire in nineteen seventy three.

342
00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.880
This is what likely made Barbara mcculchin a target. The

343
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.720
Whiskey Agogo Nightclub was a prominent venue in Brisbane, Queensland

344
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.839
during the nineteen seventies. It became infamous for a devastating

345
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:41.279
firebombing attack on March eighth, nineteen seventy three, which resulted

346
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.440
in the deaths of fifteen people. This tragedy is one

347
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:49.240
of Australia's worst mass murders. In twenty seventeen, forty three

348
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:54.000
years later, Vincent o'dempsey and Gary Dubois were convicted. O'dempsey

349
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.519
was sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering the mcculkins, while

350
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.119
dubois was found guilty of rape and manslaw. The bodies

351
00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.119
of Barbara and her daughters were never found.

352
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.039
In nineteen ninety eight, Joanne gave a twenty seven page

353
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.640
statement to the police. In it, she detailed her relationship

354
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.559
with Chris and her suspicions about what had happened to Lynn.

355
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:18.079
The statement finally led to Chris being formally questioned by police.

356
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.279
The interview led to two coronial inquests, the first in

357
00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.160
two thousand one. A coronial inquest in Australia is a

358
00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.200
legal inquiry conducted by a coroner who has the power

359
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.599
to investigate certain deaths, particularly those that are sudden, unnatural

360
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.480
or suspicious. The goal of an inquest is to determine

361
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.920
the identity of the deceased, the cause and circumstances of death,

362
00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.039
and make recommendations to prevent similar incidents. Inquests do not

363
00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.680
assign criminal or civil liability, but they can uncover evidence

364
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.400
for further investigation. They are governed by state laws and

365
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:57.920
often involve witness testimony, document review, and public findings. At

366
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.759
the conclusion of an inquest, the coroner may assess whether

367
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.680
or not they believed there was criminal intent and can

368
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:08.279
recommend filing charges. The first inquest called no witnesses and

369
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.960
only lasted half a day. Little evidence was offered. The

370
00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:16.039
transcript is a paltry twenty five pages. The coroner ruled

371
00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.079
that Lynn had been murdered by a person known to her,

372
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:24.079
meaning Chris. The Department of Public Prosecutions declined to file charges,

373
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:28.079
citing lack of evidence. Two years later, in two thousand

374
00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.319
and three, it was decided to give it another go

375
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.519
after more evidence was gathered. The second inquest lasted five

376
00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.880
days and over twenty witnesses were called. One of the

377
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.799
witnesses was thirty nine year old Joanne Curtis. She said

378
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.319
that she had been groomed by Chris and was forced

379
00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.880
into marriage because he would never let her go and

380
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.960
she had no other options. She said she felt like

381
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.160
a sex slave. Joanne was accused of being an unreliable witness.

382
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.759
Several of Chris's other female students, who had been miners

383
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.920
at the time, came forward to testify about the sexual

384
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.640
abuse they suffered at the hands of the Dawson brothers.

385
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.480
Some victims declined to testify as they didn't want to

386
00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:11.599
upset their current wives. The second inquest was more fruitful.

387
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
The transcript is over three hundred pages. At the end

388
00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.759
of the inquest, Lynn was again declared dead and a

389
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.160
murder victim by the hand of someone who knew her.

390
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:26.000
The coroner recommended that the DPP charge Christawson with Lynn's

391
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.119
murder and the concealment of her body. Again, the DPP

392
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:35.000
declined to file charges against Christawson. Former New South Wales

393
00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:39.440
Director of Public Prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery told ABC News Australia

394
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.599
that the evidence that Lynn was murdered wasn't strong enough

395
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:46.119
to move forward with a prosecution. Quote without a body,

396
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:48.759
without knowing first of all, whether in fact she is dead,

397
00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:51.960
without knowing secondly, if she is dead, how she died,

398
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.759
It's very hard to mount a case of a reasonable

399
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.880
prospect of conviction just on motive and the undefined existence

400
00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.480
of means and oper opportunity that makes it very weak.

401
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.640
Lynn Dawson disappeared, and that really is as far as

402
00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:07.279
I can take it in my own mind.

403
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:10.759
I don't want to defend the police here, but there

404
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.200
is not a lot of evidence.

405
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.480
Yeah, I agree, there's a point there. Part of the

406
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.519
reason there's not a lot of evidence because they screwed

407
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:20.880
up so badly and never investigated it thoroughly in the

408
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.119
first place. But you're right, I mean, there's not a

409
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.880
lot to go on. There was also the problem of

410
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.400
several alleged sightings of Lynn over the years. A friend

411
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.480
of Lynn and Chris's Sue Butlin, told police that she

412
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.799
had seen Lynn once at a roadside fruit stand. When

413
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.599
she approached Lynn, she got in a car and drove away.

414
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.839
So we're supposed to believe that Lynn got her driver's

415
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.319
license in between the times she disappeared and this sighting.

416
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.759
Right, this seems very unlikely. And I know a lot

417
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:50.720
of times people see you know, there's always sightings of

418
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.400
people that disappeared their high profile in the news. But

419
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.720
it's odd that this is actually a friend of hers

420
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.519
that said that she saw her. You would think that

421
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.839
she would, you know, but.

422
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:02.920
Well for the record, Sue and her husband were good

423
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.200
friends of Chris uh Okay.

424
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.960
Sue also revealed to police that Helena Simms had once

425
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.440
spotted her daughter, but this was false. Helena had never

426
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:17.240
spotted her daughter. She looked tirelessly for Lynne but never

427
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:21.759
spotted her. She took buses, ferries and trains endlessly searching

428
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.599
for her. Helena wrote beseeching letters to hospitals asking if

429
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.200
Lynn had ever been in their employee. If she had

430
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.400
ever had a sighting of Lynn, she would have never

431
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.839
let it go. Sue had died before the inquests, but

432
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.200
the police believed her account, and although Helena had never

433
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.759
reported citing Lynn herself to the police and they'd never

434
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.519
questioned her, they believed Sue's account that she had seen Lynn.

435
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:46.880
That really frustrated Lynn's family.

436
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.000
I can totally understand that, Yeah, you're getting it secondhand

437
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.000
from somebody else who is a friend of Chris's, but

438
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.640
you're not going to go to the source and believe her.

439
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.640
Twenty years had passed between Lyne's disappearance and the inquests.

440
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.799
As time marched on, the investigation became more challenging as

441
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.480
witnesses memories faded, and some had died.

442
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:09.559
I would be in real trouble if someone asked me

443
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:11.319
about something that happened twenty years ago.

444
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:12.119
Oh yeah, for sure.

445
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:14.519
I mean it's a traumatic event and you would have

446
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:16.039
memories of it.

447
00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:18.079
But well maybe not, because a lot of them just

448
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.839
thought she had gone off and joined a religious group

449
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.319
or something. So a lot of people didn't think that

450
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.160
anything suspicious had happened, So you wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily

451
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:28.160
remember a lot.

452
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:32.480
Yeah. Hadley Thomas, a journalist for The Australian and The

453
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:36.400
Weekend Australian newspaper, was still reeling from the loss of

454
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.599
his father and namesake months after his death. Hadley Senior

455
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.200
had been quite a character. At age seventy, he embarked

456
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.200
on a solo sailing trip from San Francisco to Australia.

457
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:48.880
Wow.

458
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.599
After his death, Headley missed him horribly. He found himself

459
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.279
moral less and unmotivated by the unfinished news pieces that

460
00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.440
lay scattered across his desk. A case that he'd worked

461
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.119
on sixteen years earlier nod at the back of his brain.

462
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.440
In two thousand and one, he had written a piece

463
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.440
for The Australian titled Looking for Lynn Lynn Dawson, a

464
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:10.400
thirty three year old wife and mother of two, had

465
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:13.440
gone missing without a trace. After his piece on Lynne

466
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:17.279
was published, someone shot a gun four times into Hedley's home.

467
00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:20.799
A bullet narrowly missed his wife as she lay in bed,

468
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:23.920
and another pierced the wall of the children's playroom.

469
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:24.920
Oh, that's terrifying.

470
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.000
The family absconded to Tasmania while the incident was investigated.

471
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.799
The gun was later found by a nearby creek. Hedley

472
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:36.400
and his family suffered from PTSD long after the shooting.

473
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:40.880
In twenty seventeen, Lynn Dawson's case still hadn't been solved.

474
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.559
In the thirty six years since she'd vanished, there had

475
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:47.279
never been a verifiable sighting of her. Law enforcement had

476
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.880
failed to conduct a thorough surgra line or adequately investigate

477
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.319
her disappearance, and no one was ever charged with any

478
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.799
crime in connection with her case. In October twenty seventeen,

479
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.799
Hedley cautiously pitched a new idea to his odd. He

480
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.759
stepped into their office and proposed launching a new project,

481
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:09.000
a true crime podcast investigating Lynn Dawson's nineteen eighty two disappearance.

482
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.680
Podcasts were just starting to catch on. Inspired by the

483
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.039
popular podcast Serial from twenty fourteen and Dirty John from

484
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.200
twenty seventeen, Hadley thought he might be able to solve

485
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:24.599
Lynde's case by creating an in depth documentary style podcast

486
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:28.039
of his own. As an agent of change, he hoped

487
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:31.319
to unearth witnesses who'd previously been hesitant to be interviewed

488
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:34.079
by law enforcement. He really thought he had a shot

489
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.680
at solving the case. Hadley's desire to solve Lynn's case

490
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.480
was personal. His own grandmother had vanished from the northern

491
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:44.440
beaches of Sydney when his father was a boy, the

492
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.640
same place Lynn Dawson had gone missing. Two of his

493
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.119
grandmother's siblings had died by suicide, and she may have

494
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.119
as well. What the unknown plagued him. Hadley had even

495
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.880
attended the same high school where Chris Dawson taught. Hadley's

496
00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.200
editor loved the idea and gave him six months to

497
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.640
investigate the case and produce a podcast. He wanted justice

498
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.119
for Lynn, her daughters, and the Simms family, who he

499
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.400
had grown very close to. He interviewed dozens of people

500
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.759
and reviewed every police document he could get his hands on.

501
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.400
Headley Thomas could never have anticipated the profound worldwide impact

502
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:23.759
of his aptly named podcast, The Teacher's Pet, despite becoming

503
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.640
a smash hit and receiving over eighty million downloads worldwide.

504
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.680
That's what wee get in like a week.

505
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.400
Yeah.

506
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.440
Law enforcement insisted that the Teacher's Pet podcast had no

507
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.359
impact on the renewed vigor they put into Lynn Dawston's investigation,

508
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:42.319
and argue the podcast actually compromise their investigation and witness interviews.

509
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:46.519
But investigators were listening to the weekly episodes and gleaning

510
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:47.240
new information.

511
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.759
Yeah, we haven't got any leads or any arrests in

512
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.680
thirty six years, but the podcast is hampering our investigation. Okay.

513
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.720
Headley was digging up new evidence and interviewing important witnesses

514
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.960
with each new episode. Lynn's family was listening to. They

515
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.799
learned new details and angrily contacted law enforcement, demanding the

516
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.759
follow up on these new leads. Damian Pohle was listening too.

517
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.279
He called Headley and told him that he had never

518
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.279
seen Chris's handwritten statement which was mentioned on the podcast,

519
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.759
and that if he had seen it, he would have

520
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:29.920
arrested him immediately. We'll be back after a break. In

521
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:32.839
August nineteen eighty two, Chris Hand wrote a statement to

522
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.839
police that was lost and later recovered by Hedley. The

523
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.319
statement reads quote Lynn and I have been having marital

524
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:44.920
problems for approximately two years, mainly over her bank card

525
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.440
spending and financial matters in general. Sorry I made a

526
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:52.319
little snirky there, but that's really not what their problem was.

527
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.440
I left home for three days over Christmas and traveled

528
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.000
north by myself, and I returned home on Boxing Day,

529
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:01.799
having missed my wife and daughters and hoping to resolve

530
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:06.839
our differences. All girlfriends have been contacted, girlfriends meeting Glynn's friends,

531
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.880
no success. I've rung women's refuges at Manly and Dewey,

532
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.599
the Salvation Army, and all possible family connections that have

533
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.559
not received word from her. I placed an ad in

534
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.839
the Telegraph to appear on March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty two,

535
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:24.000
our wedding anniversary. It appeared a day late on March

536
00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:28.240
twenty seventh. I rang Royal north Shore Hospital staffing and

537
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.519
was informed as sister el Simms worked in casualty. I

538
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.519
drove through and spoke to a doctor I knew, who

539
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.960
informed me that the sister Simms didn't fit my wife's description.

540
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.200
My father, mister sid Dawson, rang lifeline who contacted a

541
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.480
Gosford refuge once again with no success. We both went

542
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:50.480
to a marriage guidance counselor psychiatrist on Friday, eighth of January.

543
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:53.319
Everything seemed fine when I dropped her back at work,

544
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.519
we were both in particularly good spirits. We were holding

545
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.599
hands and once again felt close. Later that night she

546
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.480
appeared distressed and had difficulty coping with our youngest daughter.

547
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:05.960
She seemed happy and had decided to go to the

548
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.000
markets and meet me and the girls back at Northbridge baths.

549
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:13.039
After twelve I dropped her off at Monavale. Everything seemed fine.

550
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.279
Ling ranging the baths at about three pm, she said

551
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:18.720
she was with friends, not to worry, it was her

552
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.400
turn that she'd ring later that week. She arring the

553
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:23.880
following Saturday and said she needed more time and wouldn't

554
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.279
return home until she felt happy to do so. Prior

555
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.680
to Christmas, Lynn had opened her own bank account and

556
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.480
bank card. Statements for a January show that she made

557
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.359
purchase at Katie's Narrabeen on twelfth January nineteen eighty two,

558
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.480
and in February statement twenty seventh January nineteen eighty two.

559
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.279
The last contact I had with her was by phone

560
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:48.160
on sixteen January nineteen eighty two. During their conversations with Chris,

561
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:53.319
investigators found his story inconsistent, particularly about the alleged phone calls,

562
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.799
which lacked detail or corroboration. They also found his relationship

563
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.519
with Joanne suspicious. Nowhere and Chris's statement did he mention

564
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.799
his relationship with her. One day, Headley Thomas drove to

565
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.519
the Sunshine Coast to the beachside community near Cooloom, where

566
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:13.599
Chris Dawson lived with his wife, Susan. Hadley felt intimidated

567
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:15.599
to knock on the door. He knew he had the

568
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.039
right house when he saw Chris's car parked in the

569
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:22.720
driveway with the license plate twin two. Paul's car had

570
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:23.640
the license plate.

571
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:25.160
Let me guess twin one.

572
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.519
You are sharp, sharp as a nail. Yes. Later, Hedley

573
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.519
called Chris in an attempt to interview him to get

574
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.400
his side of the story. He was shocked when he

575
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:40.720
answered the phone, Chris speaking, where's your Australian accent? I

576
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.279
can't oh, good day, Chris. My name's Headley Thomas. I'm

577
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:47.039
a journalist and I oh Hedley. I know of you, Yes, Chris,

578
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:48.799
I'd really like to have a chat to hear your

579
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:50.839
views on this. My Australian accent.

580
00:30:50.839 --> 00:30:54.039
It's impact, I know it really is, Hedley. I've spoken

581
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:57.559
to journalists before, and articles and television shows and everything

582
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.200
coming out have not been fair in their interpretation of

583
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.160
what I've said, totally changed everything I've said. I'm sorry,

584
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:08.680
I've lost all my faith in journalism, so so so sorry.

585
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:12.039
My answer is no, I won't be speaking to you. Sorry.

586
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:16.640
Once the podcast began airing, Hedley was deluged with messages

587
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:21.279
from people coming forward with new information. Hadley was overwhelmed,

588
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.960
fielding calls, emails, and texts all day. He was receiving

589
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.640
so much new information that he was having to constantly

590
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.359
rework the podcast episodes he'd already written and recorded. Hedley

591
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.440
wasn't sleeping, he was eating badly and drinking too much.

592
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:38.559
His stress and anxiety were an overdrive. So I'm just

593
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:42.599
laughing because I'm like to feel your pay Haadly. Yeah,

594
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.920
he had no time for his wife or children. His

595
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.119
wife went to stay with their son, who was in

596
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:51.359
college in Copenhagen. After fourteen episodes had been released, Hedley

597
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.759
took a break with the amount of new information he

598
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:56.119
was receiving, he needed to sort through it before he

599
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.640
could finish the podcast. Lynn's family was pleased that her

600
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.319
case was finally receiving the investigation it deserved, and they

601
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.240
were very grateful to be supported by the public. Anne Hedley.

602
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:11.519
The Teacher's Pet podcast is sixteen episodes, and you haven't

603
00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:12.240
listened to it, have you?

604
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:12.440
No?

605
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:15.119
I listened to it. I don't think I listened to

606
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:18.880
the whole thing like years ago, and I was very

607
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:22.119
invested in the story. It is a little muddled when

608
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.359
you listen to it because you can kind of tell

609
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.279
like he had to rework it and some things are

610
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:31.640
repeated and what I mean great investigative journalism.

611
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.039
Yeah. The house on Gilwinga Drive changed hands many times

612
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:39.119
over the years. One of the owners had installed extensive

613
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.240
landscaping on the property and recalled the earth being very

614
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.640
rocky and hard to dig, except for one area under

615
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:48.759
the girl's bedroom windows, where phil dirt had been laid

616
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.559
during the construction of the foundation of the house. A

617
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:56.200
former neighbor said, quote, because the guy next door was building,

618
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:58.400
he put over three meters of fill dirt in the

619
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:01.480
backyard at Chris's BHS. It was good for him to

620
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:04.279
get rid of his excavations. But I think she's under

621
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.000
there somewhere. That's the only thing I'm pretty positive about.

622
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:11.799
That area of the yard was known to flood. A

623
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.880
subsequent owner had cement poured over the area and built

624
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.920
a retaining wall. Over the years, the footprint of the

625
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.079
house had been expanded, making excavating for Lynn's body challenging

626
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.160
without destroying the structure of the house.

627
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:29.599
So once the podcast began airing, wealthy benefactors came forward

628
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.599
and they were like, let's just buy the property and

629
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.480
we will just tear down the house and we'll dig

630
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:36.480
up the whole property.

631
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.279
Wow, that's incredible.

632
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.400
Isn't it. Yeah, but it's never happened.

633
00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:45.000
Police received information that the Dawson's in ground swimming pool

634
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:48.279
was being built at the time of Lynn's disappearance, although

635
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:50.960
in reality it had already been in place for years,

636
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:55.319
but the landscaping hadn't been completed. In April nineteen ninety nine,

637
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:59.440
ground penetrating radar was used around the pool area. Pavers

638
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.440
and gardens surrounding the homes in ground swimming pool were

639
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.319
torn up. The ground was softer here because of the

640
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.000
pool construction. If Lynn was buried somewhere on the property,

641
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.880
this was the most likely place.

642
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.920
Well, there were actually to the soft soil underneath the

643
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.239
girl's bedroom windows or this area by the pool. Okay,

644
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:23.480
the rest of the property was very rocky and allegedly

645
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:27.119
impossible to really bury someone properly, gotcha.

646
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:30.360
Several items were found in areas where the radar suggested

647
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.360
that the earth had been disturbed, including toys and a

648
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:37.159
juice box with an expiration date of nineteen eighty two.

649
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.400
So it's strange that there is a juice box and

650
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.880
toys buried under the soil.

651
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.920
Here, I mean, I suppose, but you know, it could

652
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:45.800
have just been something left in the yard that got

653
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.320
covered up and over the years.

654
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:49.360
How did toys get covered up?

655
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.559
Like, I don't know how deep it was buried or whatever.

656
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.679
I mean stuff, you know, it's how archaeologists they find

657
00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.519
stuff right that is underneath the soil that just was

658
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:03.039
left there. Among the found items was a pink knitted

659
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:05.760
cardigan known to be a favorite of Lind's, with twenty

660
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.679
two slits in the arms, as if the wearer had

661
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:12.800
been fending off an attacker wielding a knife. Wow. The

662
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.679
sweater had fallen apart over time into several pieces. Blood

663
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.480
might have been present, but tests were inconclusive.

664
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:25.400
So Damian Lone remember our investigator. He took the sweater

665
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.159
and he brought it all the way to the United States.

666
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:32.119
He carried it on to the airplane because he wanted

667
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:33.280
the FBI to test it.

668
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:37.360
Oh wow. The whole pool area was not excavated. Many

669
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:40.360
people think that Chris may have initially buried Lynn near

670
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.800
the pool and then later moved her body. The tennis

671
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.239
courts at the high school were being installed at the time,

672
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.639
and some think that Lynn might be there. Chris and

673
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.519
Paul had worked as garbage men part time and would

674
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.199
know their way around a landfill and the best time

675
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.800
to dump a body undetected. After the release of the

676
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:02.599
Teacher's Pet podcast, police received harsh criticism for their lack

677
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.599
of effort in Lynn's case. New South Wales Police Commissioner

678
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.880
Mick Fuller defended their actions, quote, the work that has

679
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.639
been happening in the last couple of years has been extraordinary.

680
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.320
We used ground penetrating radar in nineteen ninety, ninety one,

681
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:19.920
ninety nine and twenty sixteen. We dug. In two thousand

682
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.760
and twenty sixteen, we had a burial site expert come

683
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:26.760
and mapped the entire block. In twenty fifteen we've had

684
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:31.559
cadaver dogs there as well. In September twenty eighteen, the

685
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:35.679
most extensive dig yet was performed. Four areas were searched,

686
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.360
three in the backyard and the fourth around the pool.

687
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.559
New technology was used to revisit a number of anomalies

688
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.599
in the ground. After six days of digging, it was

689
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.719
called off. Nothing of interest was found. The soft soil

690
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.559
under the bedroom windows was determined to be soft only

691
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:56.559
on the surface. Lynn's body was not there. Police don't

692
00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.880
believe that she is on the property. Cadaver dogs also

693
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.599
searched the grounds of Paul Dawson's home and the surrounding woods,

694
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:07.920
but no digs or radar scans were conducted there. It's

695
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.000
really disappointing that they weren't able to find any remains,

696
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:12.960
because it just seemed like that was the most likely thing.

697
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:20.280
But finally, finally, on Wednesday, December fifth, twenty eighteen, thirty

698
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.320
six years after the disappearance of Lynette Joy Simms Dawson,

699
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:28.719
Chris Dawson, now seventy was arrested and charged with her

700
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.480
murder in Queensland while wearing shorts and flip flops. It's

701
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.559
a nice little detail there. He was extradited too.

702
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.000
Well, they call them thongs in Australia. It would be thongs, yeah,

703
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:44.360
which is confusing to American listeners because it's.

704
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:44.920
That puts a picture in your mind that you don't read.

705
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.000
Yeah, you don't want to picture Chris Dawson in a thong.

706
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.599
He was extradited to New South Wales to face charges.

707
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.039
His older brother Peter, represented him.

708
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:56.480
Peter must have been like, you must have been pretty old.

709
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.880
Yeah. Bail was set at one point five million dollars,

710
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:04.119
which he posted. Chris Dawson's lawyers argued that it was

711
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:06.920
impossible for him to receive a fair trial after the

712
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.599
Teacher's Pet podcast had been heard by so many Australians,

713
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:14.480
but the trial went on before it began. Headley turned

714
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:18.239
over his trove of research materials to investigators. In the

715
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:20.920
year of creating his podcast, he had amassed a lot

716
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.000
of evidence and interviews that law enforcement hadn't seen. Hedley

717
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.480
was required to temporarily remove The Teacher's Pet from streaming

718
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:32.760
platforms in Australia to prevent influencing the potential juror pool

719
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:36.800
and to prevent Chris Dawson's defense from claiming that he

720
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.440
would not be able to receive a fair trial, a

721
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:43.400
move that frustrated many Australians who hadn't yet finished the series.

722
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:46.480
I'd be really mad, I know, like, oh.

723
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.159
My podcast is going to get so much attention now

724
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.400
you got to take it down.

725
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.360
Yeah. It had received plenty of attention.

726
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.960
International listeners were still able to listen and it remained

727
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.360
a smash hit. Fearing a biased jury due to the

728
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:03.000
popularity of the Teacher's Pet podcast, Chris elected to have

729
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:07.639
a judge alone or bench trial. Justice Ian Harrison presided

730
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.559
over the trial, which began on May twenty second, twenty

731
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:13.920
twenty two, in the New South Wales Supreme Court, three

732
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.800
and a half years after Dawson's arrest. Among the witnesses

733
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.960
was Marilyn Dawson. She testified about Lynn's strength as a woman. Quote,

734
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.679
I wanted her to stand up and be counted about

735
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.400
her home and her children and her marriage. She was

736
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:31.639
a strong girl, a strong personality. She was a nurse.

737
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:35.159
She saw a lot of suffering and saving of lives.

738
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.920
She was very worldly, she had a strong opinion about things.

739
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.679
I don't know why she didn't have a strong personality

740
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.280
to stand up to her marriage. When I spoke to

741
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.639
her in the car, I thought that she was devastated

742
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.840
and perhaps a little flat and maybe mentally not coping. Unquote.

743
00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:55.840
Paul Dawson testified that on Christmas nineteen eighty one, he

744
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.679
saw Lynn at his parents' house, and she seemed happy

745
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:00.760
and excited about her and Chris's future.

746
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.840
Remember that Joanne and Chris are hiding in a closet

747
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:07.320
at his house at this time, and He's like, Oh,

748
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.719
she was so happy about our marriage. The defense argued

749
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:13.079
that women do leave on their own free will to

750
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.480
start a life somewhere new. They cited as evidence the

751
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.000
case of a woman who had left her family some

752
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:23.079
sixty years earlier, relocated to New Zealand, and started a

753
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:26.480
new family. Her first family only learned of this after

754
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:30.679
her death. Ironically, the woman mentioned was the mother of

755
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:34.880
Peter Dawson's first wife. The defense also claimed that if

756
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.800
law enforcement had investigated Lynne's disappearance in nineteen eighty two,

757
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.920
they would have retrieved important phone and bank records to

758
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:46.719
corroborate Chris's account. It's just so funny. So much of

759
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.159
their defense was like, well, these records would prove Chris's innocence,

760
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:54.480
but you know, obviously they would have probably proved his guilt.

761
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.360
I know I've heard this at other trials as well,

762
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.199
where that happens, and it's like, it's good for the defense,

763
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.199
even though you think it would be better for the prosecution.

764
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:05.360
Hadley Thomas was called as a witness by the defense.

765
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:08.960
He was accused of producing his podcast for fame and

766
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.079
fortune rather than seeking justice for Lynn, and turning a

767
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:16.079
blind eye to any evidence that refuted Chris Dawson's guilt.

768
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.559
He denied the claims. His methods and motives were questioned

769
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.719
at nauseum. The defense even brought up his grandmother's disappearance

770
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:27.800
as evidence of his bias. Damian Lune was called to testify.

771
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.360
The defense berated him for not following up on the

772
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:34.199
alleged sightings of Lynn. The final witness called by the

773
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:36.400
defense was a man who had met a woman in

774
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:40.000
a bar some thirty six years prior. The woman told

775
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:42.679
him that she'd left her husband and children after she'd

776
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:45.840
discovered that he'd been unfaithful. She told him that she

777
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.119
was so angry she left without proper identification or a suitcase.

778
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.960
Years later, he'd seen a television program about Lynn and

779
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Chris Dawson and realized that the woman he'd met was Lynn. Hmmm,

780
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:59.920
do you believe that story?

781
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:00.039
No?

782
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:02.360
I don't. I mean I believe maybe he believed it.

783
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:03.480
Yeah.

784
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.599
The judge considered the case for five and a half

785
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.639
hours before he announced his verdict.

786
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:12.559
The evidence does not reveal how mister Dawson killed Lynett Dawson.

787
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:14.880
It does not reveal whether he did so with the

788
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:18.480
assistance of anyone else or by himself. It does not

789
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:21.920
reveal where or when he did so, Nor does it

790
00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:23.880
reveal well and at Dawson's.

791
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:24.280
Body is now.

792
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.639
The charge of murder in this trial is unsupported by

793
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.360
direct evidence. The case against mister Dawson is wholly circumstantial.

794
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:36.000
It is therefore necessary that the Crown persuaded me beyond

795
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.639
reasonable doubt. Not only that mister Dawson's guilt is a

796
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.599
rational inference, but that is the only rational inference that

797
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.960
the circumstances would enable me to droll. The circumstantial evidence

798
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:50.840
in this case, considered as a whole is persuasive and compelling.

799
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.800
None of the circumstances considered alone can establish mister Dawson's guilt,

800
00:42:56.199 --> 00:43:00.320
but when regard has had to then combined force, in

801
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.079
no doubt, I'm satisfied, beyond reasonable doubt that the only

802
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.960
rational inference that the circumstances enabled me to draw is

803
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.119
that Lynette Dawson died or in about eight January nineteen

804
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:14.360
eighty two as the result of a conscious and voluntary

805
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.880
act committed by mister Dawson with the intention of causing

806
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:23.800
her death. Christopher Michael Dawson on the charts that are

807
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:26.719
about eight January nineteen eighty two. It play for you

808
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:31.159
or elsewhere in the state of New South Wales. You

809
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:34.920
did murder Lynette Dawson. I find you guilty. You mes,

810
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:41.920
sit down, mister Dawson. Will be necessary for you to

811
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:46.960
take him into custody.

812
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.599
You have to go forty years, four months and one

813
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:55.239
day after Lynette disappeared, she finally received justice.

814
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.519
That is so it's amazing that it finally happened.

815
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:03.639
Never give up and it's just heartbreaking. Cheers could be

816
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:07.039
heard in the neighboring overflow courtroom as the verdict was

817
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:11.320
read on Thursday, November tenth, twenty twenty two, before the

818
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:14.599
judge delivered Chris Dawson's sentence. One's brother Greg and her

819
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:19.000
sister Pat each gave victim impact statements. Also in the

820
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.519
courtroom to face her father and honor her mother. With

821
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.360
Chanel Dawson, now forty five years old, older than her

822
00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:28.639
mother ever got to be, she bravely gave an emotional

823
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.239
statement to the riveted courtroom. Every teary eye in the

824
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.360
courtroom was poised on her, except those of her father,

825
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.840
who cowardly looked at the floor in front of him.

826
00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:40.159
I'm going to try to read this, but I might

827
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.199
need you to take over. The night you removed our

828
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:45.440
mother from our lives was the night you destroyed my

829
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.519
sense of safety and belonging in this world. For many

830
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:51.760
decades to come, almost all of the love, nurturing and

831
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:55.440
kindness vanished from my life because of your selfish actions.

832
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:57.880
We will never see her again. We will never hear

833
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:01.480
her tell us that she loves us, feel hold us,

834
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:04.039
or hear her laugh. There are not enough words in

835
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:06.599
the English language to describe the impact of forty one

836
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:10.880
years of deceit, trauma, being silenced, and gaslighted the absence

837
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:15.440
of a loving mother, grandmother, abusive unloving replacements, emotional and

838
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.920
psychological abuse, the fact that the father I love and

839
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:23.239
trusted is capable of such a heart wrenchingly selfish, brutal,

840
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:26.639
and misogynistic act. She's no longer any use to you,

841
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.760
a hindrance with no value. You can coldly dispose of

842
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.599
her in such utter disrespect. This has affected my trust

843
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:39.519
in men and subconsciously every relationship I've had. For many years,

844
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:42.639
I worked through abandonment issues, believing that our beautiful mother

845
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.599
left on her own accord, and I had believed what

846
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:48.880
you said because she didn't love us anymore. Most, if

847
00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:51.000
not every day, I feel the absence of her from

848
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:53.639
our lives. No mother to cuddle me when I'm hurt

849
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:56.360
or sad, No mother to love, help or advise me.

850
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.679
No mother to be a role model for my own

851
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:03.199
motheringly home cooked meals to return home to, No family gatherings,

852
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:06.920
birthdays or Christmas to look forward to. You took that away,

853
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.800
and so much more you had no right to. You

854
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.039
are not God. It hurts me deeply to think of

855
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:14.199
you in jail for the rest of your life. But

856
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:17.480
I also choose not to carry your burdens anymore. I

857
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.599
need my life back, my daughter needs me back, and

858
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.519
not overwhelmed by grief anymore. This is how I will

859
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.679
honor my beautiful mother, the torture of not knowing what

860
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:30.159
happened or what you did with her body. Please tell

861
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:33.039
us where she is. I hope you finally admit the

862
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:35.559
truth to yourself and give us the last bit of closure.

863
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.440
We need to make at least partial peace with this

864
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:39.599
horrible tragedy.

865
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.079
That was very, very well said.

866
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:43.159
Yeah.

867
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.960
On Friday, December second, twenty twenty two, Chris Dawson, seventy four,

868
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:50.639
was sentenced to twenty four years in prison with a

869
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:54.599
non parole period of eighteen years. The judge was required

870
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:58.519
to use sentencing guidelines from nineteen eighty two. The penalty

871
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.199
for murder forty years ago was less severe than it

872
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.920
is today. The law has since been changed to require

873
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.880
defendants from older cases to be sentenced using current guidelines.

874
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:12.320
Chris's brother Peter was there, but Paul was not. He

875
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.400
only attended one day of the trial. Later, at another trial,

876
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.920
Chris was found guilty of carnal knowledge exploiting a child

877
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:23.360
for sex. An additional three years was added to his sentence.

878
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:26.679
The earliest he will be eligible for parole is August

879
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:30.039
twenty forty, when he is ninety two years old, although

880
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:32.880
a new law in New South Wales called Lynn's Law

881
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.920
states that before his release, he would have to divulge

882
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:40.519
where he buried Lynne's body. No body, no parole. The

883
00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:43.719
new law was proposed by Lynn's family. What a great

884
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.519
tribute to have that law named after her.

885
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:47.800
Yeah, it is, and it really is a smart idea.

886
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:49.000
Like it.

887
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:50.760
I like it too, It's wonderful.

888
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.800
After the verdict, Greg Simms requested the media refrain from

889
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:59.239
calling his sister Lynette Dawson. Her name was Lynette Joy Simms,

890
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.400
and that is how she should be remembered. He spoke

891
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:04.800
from the steps of the courthouse, wearing a pink shirt

892
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.119
for his sister. Quote. I think having a murder verdict

893
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:10.920
brings a conclusion to one part of the story, but

894
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.639
it's extremely hard to think of why couldn't he just

895
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.239
bloody walk away. We could have had our sister Unquote.

896
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:20.599
He was grateful he'd never have to see Chris Dawson again.

897
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.960
But Greg gave one last plead to Chris Dawson.

898
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:28.480
This is a milestone in our journey about the kidie

899
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:33.639
for Lynn. However, the journey is not complete. She is

900
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:39.320
still missing. We still made to bring her home. We

901
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:44.039
would ask Chris Dawson divided him himself to finally do

902
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:47.920
the decent thing and allow us to bring Lynnheim to

903
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:53.039
a peaceful wrist, finally showing her some dignity she deserves.

904
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:57.079
And here's Hedley also speaking from the courthouse steps.

905
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:00.280
There's a lot of criticism that's been appropriately made of

906
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:05.400
the police investigation early. You know, Lynn Dawson was missing

907
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.920
for eight years and just treated as a runaway mother

908
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:13.559
for that time when the circumstances were so gravely suspicious.

909
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:16.119
It wouldn't happen today.

910
00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:19.679
If something like that happened today, there would be as

911
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:23.400
Damian Loon, who picked up the investigation and did such

912
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.079
an amazing job with it from ninety ninety eight, as

913
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.559
he said, there would be a strike force that would

914
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:34.199
be set up today and there would be very strong

915
00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:38.920
focus on the spouse. But that didn't happen, and I

916
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:43.079
think that's a reflection of society and how far things

917
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:43.679
have come.

918
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:48.000
Help Hadley feels good about his role in getting justice

919
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:50.119
to this because it seems like it probably never would

920
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:54.880
have occurred if not for his podcast exactly. Gregg's wife,

921
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:58.239
Maryland said, quote, no sentence is long enough for taking

922
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:02.400
someone's life unquote with that wholeheartedly, Yeah, I do too,

923
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:08.400
especially when it's premeditated, which it obviously was. Pat Simms said, quote,

924
00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:11.079
I can never forgive Chris for the way he treated Lynn,

925
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.960
but also for the cruel and callous way he treated

926
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:18.800
our distressed and grieving mother. Quote. Chris Dawson appealed his conviction.

927
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.559
He ran out of money and is now represented by

928
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:25.119
a public defender. One aspect of his appeal argued that

929
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:29.920
the conviction was unfair because he was at a forensic disadvantage.

930
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:33.440
Over the forty years since Lynn's disappearance, witnesses had died,

931
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:35.679
such as the woman who had seen Lynn at the

932
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.639
fruit stand. His attorney also argued that bank and phone

933
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:43.039
records supporting his claims that Lynn had called him and

934
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:46.400
had used her bank card could no longer be corroborated.

935
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:49.960
Or you could say he was at a forensic advantage

936
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:51.719
because so much time had passed.

937
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:54.320
Yeah, that's what I believe. The appeal went on to

938
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.039
say that Lynn had been under great mental duress. And

939
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:59.679
could have left on her own accord, and that she

940
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.760
knew her children would be in good care with their father. Right.

941
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:07.880
I'm not defending Chris, but his daughters both say that

942
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:08.880
he was a good father.

943
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.199
Yeah, but it sounds like they both believe now that

944
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.679
he did it. I know the one definitely did because

945
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.039
she spoke about it. But do both daughters believe that

946
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:17.960
he is guilty.

947
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:19.480
We'll wrap that up in a few minutes.

948
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.480
Remember when Damian Luhne was handed Lynn's cold case file

949
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:25.599
with one piece of paper in it because the rest

950
00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:28.280
of the file had been lost. It was mentioned in

951
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.320
the appeal that there may have been exculpatory evidence in

952
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:32.320
that lost file.

953
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.679
So again this notion that there's some sort of exculpatory

954
00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.119
evidence and there is none.

955
00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:40.159
Yeah.

956
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:43.039
It was also mentioned in Chris's appeal that he was

957
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:47.159
recently diagnosed with dementia and prison would be exceptionally hard

958
00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:47.559
for him.

959
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:48.440
Oh poor god.

960
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:51.719
Yeah, I know. He also has bad hips and knees

961
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:54.000
due to his rugby playing years.

962
00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:56.639
So they're making the argument that he shouldn't have to

963
00:51:56.679 --> 00:51:58.679
go to prison because he has bad hips and knees

964
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:01.199
and it would be hard on him.

965
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.639
Right, And the dementia piece, Yeah, which I don't have

966
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:10.079
empathy for Chris, But I don't know how prisons handle

967
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:11.039
aging inmates.

968
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:14.519
Yeah, I don't know either. In June twenty twenty four,

969
00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.559
the three judge panel of the Court of Criminal Appeals

970
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:20.559
dismissed his appeal. They said they had no doubt of

971
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:24.000
his guilt. One judge wrote in their opinion quote, the

972
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:27.440
circumstantial case against the applicant was compelling and there is

973
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.639
no reasonable doubt as to the applicant's guilt unquote.

974
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:35.360
Joanne Curtis has had a very hard life. She deeply

975
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.800
regrets becoming involved with Chris Dawson in her part in

976
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:42.039
destroying a marriage. She said that Lynn Dawson treated her

977
00:52:42.039 --> 00:52:45.360
with more kindness than anyone else in her entire life.

978
00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:50.639
Joanne was interviewed extensively for Rebecca Hazel's book The Schoolgirl,

979
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:53.639
Her Teacher and his wife, but later cut ties with

980
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.480
Rebecca before the book was published for an undisclosed reason.

981
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.599
I read Rebecca Hazel's book. It was a really great

982
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:05.199
wolcom and it is largely told from Joanne's perspective, and

983
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.519
it was interesting to hear her perspective. Rebecca Hazel was

984
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:12.960
heartbroken when she cut ties with her. Joanne earned a

985
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.599
degree in psychology and has worked with victims of domestic violence.

986
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:20.039
She has never remarried. I don't think she's even had

987
00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:23.159
a close relationship with another man. I think she kind

988
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:27.159
of swore off men after Chris Dawson. Joanne maintains a

989
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.880
close relationship with her daughter and her grandchildren. She lives

990
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.800
in Sydney. Raised by their father. Lynn's daughters, Chanelle and

991
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:37.440
Sharon stood by him. He was the only parent they

992
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.320
had after jo Anne left. Chanelle says he was a

993
00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:43.639
good father, but she pined for a loving mother. Chris

994
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:45.400
told the girls that their mother had left them and

995
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:48.320
joined a religious cult. He told them that she left

996
00:53:48.320 --> 00:53:51.280
them because she didn't love them anymore, which is like

997
00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:55.239
the cruelest thing ever, Like you, you killed her and

998
00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:58.960
then you and I don't well, maybe he did realize

999
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.239
how painful that was for them, but you carry that

1000
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:04.119
sort of pain with you the rest of your life

1001
00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:07.320
is really horrible. All of Lynde's pictures were taken down

1002
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:09.440
and they weren't allowed to ask about her. There was

1003
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:11.719
a box pushed back into the deep corner of a

1004
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:14.800
closet that held a few pictures of Lynne that Chanell coveted.

1005
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.119
She only dared look at it when no one else

1006
00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:20.440
was around. Chris told him that Joanne was their real mother.

1007
00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:23.840
As Chanell grew older, she began to question her father's

1008
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:27.760
involvement in Lyne's disappearance. She talked openly about her pain

1009
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:32.639
and abandonment issues with The Australian Woman's Weekly. Chanell left

1010
00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:35.679
home at age seventeen and traveled the world she felt

1011
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:38.519
most at peace and nature, often sleeping under the stars.

1012
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:42.480
She joined hippie communes, living hand to mouth. She knew

1013
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:44.880
she'd never find her mother, but Chanell searched for being

1014
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.400
in comfort while she was plagued with depression, anxiety, and PTST.

1015
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:52.599
When she was nineteen, a psychic helpter see the truth

1016
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:56.119
about her father. Chanell wrote in her book My Mother's

1017
00:54:56.119 --> 00:54:58.639
Eyes quote, once I started to see the lies I'd

1018
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.039
been told, it was to see where they ended. But

1019
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.159
facing the truth meant losing her sister, so she pushed

1020
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.159
the reality deep into her brain until she was ready

1021
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:11.760
to confront Chris. There was an alleged sighting of Lynn

1022
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:15.679
in an episode of Antique's Road Show filmed in Cornwall, England.

1023
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:18.800
In two thousand and six, Chris called her and told

1024
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:21.159
her that she should go there and look for Lynn.

1025
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.840
Chanell admitted that she both loved and feared her father

1026
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.840
as an adult. She was sure he'd killed her mother,

1027
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:30.920
and she was afraid to lose both Chris and her sister,

1028
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:34.639
who never faltered in her support of him. To answer

1029
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:39.440
your question from a couple of minutes ago, Sharon supported Chris.

1030
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:41.400
Even through his trial and sure everything.

1031
00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:45.280
Oh yeah. In twenty thirteen, detective Damian Loon asked Chanel

1032
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:48.880
if she would undergo hypnosis in an attempt to uncover

1033
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:53.280
more childhood memories from the time of Lynn's disappearance. She agreed.

1034
00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:56.400
Here's a clip of Chanelle talking about the experience with

1035
00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:57.960
sixty Minutes Australia.

1036
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.039
What happened when you underwent the hypnosis.

1037
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:01.880
That was.

1038
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:05.840
Like, I could feel myself as a four and a

1039
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:08.480
half year old child again. I could feel the feelings

1040
00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:11.119
that she felt at the time. It was really pretty profound.

1041
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:16.280
I believe I saw my sister and I in the

1042
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:19.920
back of a car of al sedation wagon and my

1043
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:24.559
mother slumped in the front. I believe I saw him

1044
00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:28.719
shining headlights on a spot near the pool and digging.

1045
00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:32.199
I believe that he buried her in that spot for

1046
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:34.639
that night, and then the next day, when he didn't

1047
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.239
have us kids, moved her somewhere else.

1048
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:40.440
When you say you saw him digging, I mean your

1049
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:43.079
memory is of shovels.

1050
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:45.559
Being pulled out of the back of the car and

1051
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:51.360
headlights and digging. It was like I regressed back to

1052
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:53.280
a four and a half year old kind of thing.

1053
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:55.280
But I was still there and present in the room,

1054
00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:56.320
listening to myself.

1055
00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:56.880
You know.

1056
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:59.760
I guess people could question what's in my subconscious? How

1057
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.639
has that created? How much is that actual memory?

1058
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:04.400
Do you think they're true memories?

1059
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.639
I think they are.

1060
00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:06.079
Yes.

1061
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:10.199
I find hypnosis so fascinating. It really makes me. I

1062
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:13.719
really don't know whether I believe that or not, or

1063
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:16.119
whether it was just something, but it is. It is

1064
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:18.639
The possibility that you could find some area of your

1065
00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:21.480
mind that you know it's just below the surface is

1066
00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:22.559
really interesting.

1067
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:26.199
It's crazy. The Teacher's Pet podcast changed Chanelle when it

1068
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:29.519
came out in twenty eighteen. Emboldened infurious, she made the

1069
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:33.480
brave decision to testify against her father. It ruined any

1070
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:38.599
remaining relationship they had. Although Chanelle had one last communication

1071
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:41.639
with Chris on Father's Day twenty eighteen.

1072
00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:44.880
I won't live a life based on lies, nor will

1073
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:48.920
I keep subjecting myself to emotional manipulation and control. You

1074
00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:52.440
have dishonored our mother so terribly, and also my sister,

1075
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:56.480
And though I threw all of this no more, one

1076
00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.280
day I will forgive you for removing her so selfishly

1077
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.920
from our lives. Perhaps one day you will take responsibility

1078
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:05.199
for your actions and the effect they've had on so

1079
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:08.320
many people, most of all your daughters and granddaughters.

1080
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:13.000
His response was breathtaking.

1081
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:16.159
You are clearly very lonely and depressed in the life

1082
00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:16.480
you have.

1083
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:19.960
Chold you know very little about what was going on

1084
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:23.559
in my life or your sisters. It is your adult life,

1085
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:26.599
now forty one, with a child and without a partner,

1086
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:31.719
that has clearly caused this terrible depression. We all, unfortunately

1087
00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:34.840
have to live with the choices we make. I own

1088
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.800
my poor choices, and you never need to remind me

1089
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:38.159
of them.

1090
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:42.400
Oh, so it's his daughter's fault because she's not married

1091
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:44.960
and has a child. That's why she's so depressed. It's

1092
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:46.920
not his fault. He had nothing to do with it.

1093
00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:50.400
Chanelle told sixty minutes. It was difficult growing up with

1094
00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:52.599
out Lynn. She was not allowed to talk about her

1095
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:55.320
quote A trainer to dwell in self pity, But I

1096
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.079
guess I do sometimes dip in there, especially on Mother's

1097
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:00.719
Day when I see everybody out there with her moms.

1098
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:03.519
She did say that Chris was a loving dad. Quote

1099
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:05.920
he taught as tennis and played in the pool with us.

1100
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:08.440
I would say he's got a side to him that's

1101
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:11.440
a lot like a lovable, adorable puppy dog. There is

1102
00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:14.519
a huge conflict in that, especially people who are quite

1103
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:18.840
angrily and rightfully so, wanting answers about my mom. Yet

1104
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:20.840
there's still that part of me that really loves my

1105
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:24.000
dad and feels protect above him. She said her father

1106
00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:26.159
looked directly into her eyes and told her that he

1107
00:59:26.199 --> 00:59:29.199
had nothing to do with Lynne's disappearance, and she wishes

1108
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:33.119
that she could believe him. Sharon believes her father is innocent.

1109
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:36.239
Sharon was hounded by the media for a comment while

1110
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:37.840
they were camped out in front of her house. She

1111
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:40.519
angrily gave brief remarks in the driveway of her home.

1112
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:43.199
She said, quote, I don't trust the media. It's a

1113
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:46.000
witch hunt and I'm over it. She said the media

1114
00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:49.039
misrepresented her father and that they had it in for him.

1115
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.480
She said growing up was quote shit because her stepmother

1116
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:56.159
was a bitch who screwed over her father. She made

1117
00:59:56.199 --> 00:59:58.519
up all these false lies and then she screwed my

1118
00:59:58.599 --> 01:00:01.000
dad over. She's got a li with that. You don't

1119
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:04.079
want to be around all this negativity and this falseness.

1120
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.800
I forgot to use an Australian accent. Darnt it. Two

1121
01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:12.199
psychics told Chanelle that she might find her mother's remains

1122
01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:15.880
by water or under some rocks. She felt compelled to

1123
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:18.400
search for her, but she hasn't found her. Of course,

1124
01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.440
she feels closest to Lynne while she is in nature.

1125
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:24.119
She seeks the same closure as her uncle.

1126
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:30.199
Greg, your dad's still holding a secret. What would it

1127
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.679
mean for you if he finally came clean?

1128
01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:39.639
Ah, that would be incredible. I don't think he's going

1129
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:43.679
to personally. I just think he believes his own lies

1130
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.920
and he won't admit it. He might come to have

1131
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:50.360
to admit it to himself after sitting in prison for

1132
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.840
some time, but I don't think it will be anytime soon.

1133
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:57.239
But does it feel like you can never really get

1134
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.679
closure until you found out what happened.

1135
01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:02.639
To Himma, Yeah, definitely, that's still a very big pace

1136
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:07.599
of the puzzle. The truth is what for me brings peace.

1137
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:08.679
Now.

1138
01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:11.280
A single parent who a young daughter herself, Chanell wrote

1139
01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:13.480
a letter to Joanne as part of her recovery and

1140
01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:17.039
part it reads quote to Joanne, I see this letter

1141
01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:20.400
as a necessary step towards forgiveness, and so I write

1142
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:23.480
to try to bring healing to myself, to neutralize the

1143
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.599
toxic poison that I feel inside, to let you know

1144
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.920
the ways that actions and choices have affected me. I

1145
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:32.159
want you to know that after all these years, I'm

1146
01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:35.599
still affected, as is my mothering and general character, which

1147
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.559
is at times harsher than necessary because of the patterns

1148
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:42.960
of behavior and programs passed on by you. These are

1149
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:45.800
my memories as I remember them. Perhaps they were happy

1150
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:48.119
ones too, but if they were, they have slipped away

1151
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:51.480
amidst the harshness of trauma. We were good and kind

1152
01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:54.239
children and didn't deserve how we were treated by you.

1153
01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:57.400
We never even dared talk back to you, defy you

1154
01:01:57.480 --> 01:01:59.519
in any way. I know you didn't have a good

1155
01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:03.519
upbringing and there were other reasons behind your treatment of us.

1156
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:05.920
You were very young when you started to have an

1157
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:08.559
affair with my father and then suddenly had full time

1158
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:13.159
care of us. End quote. Chanell has had a conversation

1159
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:16.840
with Joanne and she said that she forgives her and

1160
01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:18.760
Chanelle does see Kristin occasionally.

1161
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:19.920
Oh, I was going to ask you about that.

1162
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:23.320
Yeah, We'll rest in peace to Lynette. Lynette Joy Simms

1163
01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:26.440
was funny and kind. Her sister said she was affectionate

1164
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:29.079
and a little cheeky. She was a loving mother and

1165
01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:32.679
a loyal wife, daughter, sister, and friend. Her family asked

1166
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.000
that she no longer be referred to as Lynn Dawson.

1167
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:37.840
So that's why we titled the episode the way we did.

1168
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:41.800
We're gonna play one last clip of Damian Lone because

1169
01:02:41.880 --> 01:02:44.079
I really like his voice and I feel like he

1170
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:45.280
summed it up very well.

1171
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:47.559
It's not a lot of being the footy when your

1172
01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:49.800
favorite time school is a traw and you get up

1173
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:51.320
there and you know, I punched the air and it's

1174
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:56.280
all good. It's not a winner here. Lynn Dawson is

1175
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.440
not here. There's a family graving a loved one who's

1176
01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:04.440
been found guilty of murder. There are the other parts

1177
01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:07.760
of the family that have lost their mom lost their sister.

1178
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.119
We al were just comforted, consoled by the truth.

1179
01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:16.679
That doesn't sum it up very nicely. I like that

1180
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.480
he uses a sports analogy because that helps people like

1181
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:20.760
me understand.

1182
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:23.480
I think this in so many of these cases, like

1183
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:28.400
there's no happy ending even and I really hope lends

1184
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.199
remains are found somebody. It maakes me heart that you

1185
01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:36.159
know she's alone out there somewhere. The Teacher's Pet podcast

1186
01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:38.760
is loved and respected by many, but it's not without

1187
01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:41.639
its critics. Some of the criticisms at his faced are

1188
01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:46.199
that Hedley Thomas lacked journalistic and partiality and neutrality. Headley

1189
01:03:46.280 --> 01:03:48.480
made up his mind pretty quickly that Chris Dawson was

1190
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:53.199
guilty and didn't investigate any other possible suspects or outcomes.

1191
01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:57.559
We forgive him for that. He made a one sided,

1192
01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:02.360
persuasive case for Dawson's guilt, which swayed public opinion. Headley

1193
01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:05.199
became an advocate for Lynn and developed deep bonds with

1194
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.440
her family. While others may criticize him for this, I

1195
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:11.400
applaud his efforts to get justice for Lynn. Without the

1196
01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:13.920
help of Headley, the podcast and the pressure listeners put

1197
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.440
on New south Well Wales law enforcement, Chris Dawson would

1198
01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:19.400
likely never have been brought to justice.

1199
01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:21.679
One thing I learned when I took a film class

1200
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:23.360
in college, and I think the same is true for

1201
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:25.559
a podcast, is that a lot of people think that

1202
01:04:25.639 --> 01:04:28.920
like a documentary or a podcast like this has to

1203
01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.559
be completely neutral and unbiased, but that's really not the case.

1204
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:34.920
I mean, somebody has a point of view and they

1205
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:37.079
want to get that out there. As long as he

1206
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:39.519
didn't lie or make up things, I don't think there's

1207
01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:44.159
anything wrong with the podcast advocating for you know, Chris's

1208
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:47.000
guilt and for helping to get justice for Lynn.

1209
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:50.000
Well, we definitely aren't journalists and we don't pretend to

1210
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:54.559
be right. Hedley seems like a very passionate man, and

1211
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:58.239
I just don't think he needed to he could or

1212
01:04:58.320 --> 01:04:59.920
needed to take the emotion out of it because it

1213
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:05.119
I wasn't necessarily a journalistic endeavor. You know, it's telling

1214
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:09.599
a story and lacking empathy while telling the story, I

1215
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:13.280
don't think people would have loved it as much. Sadly,

1216
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:16.199
both Helena and Len Sims died in two thousand and

1217
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:18.760
one before there was justice for Lynn, and even the

1218
01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:22.000
a in quest, so Helena didn't know that, you know,

1219
01:05:22.119 --> 01:05:26.800
her case might have resolution someday. In twenty eighteen, New

1220
01:05:26.840 --> 01:05:31.360
South Wales police launched an investigation called Strikeforce Southward into

1221
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:35.519
teacher sexual abuse of students in the nineteen eighties. In

1222
01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:39.159
twenty twenty three, Chris Dawson's third wife, Susan, divorced him

1223
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:42.280
after thirty years of marriage. I'm not sure if this

1224
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:44.400
was a real divorce or not, or just you know,

1225
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:48.239
a severing of like legal ties so like she could

1226
01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.599
save their assets. But it may have been real, But

1227
01:05:50.679 --> 01:05:54.400
I was just maybe a little dubious about that. Paul

1228
01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:56.519
or none of the other teachers were ever charged with

1229
01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:59.440
any sex crimes against the minor girls as far as

1230
01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:02.000
I can tell, well, the only teacher other than Chris

1231
01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:06.119
who was prosecuted for inappropriate conduct from Cromer High was

1232
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:09.679
a male art teacher who sexually abused young male students.

1233
01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:14.000
Peter wain Scott was prosecuted for fourteen counts of drugging

1234
01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:18.480
and sexually abusing children during and after school hours at

1235
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:19.000
his home.

1236
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:21.679
It's frustrating that I was going to ask you about

1237
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:25.519
whether Paul had any consequences for his actions, because it

1238
01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:27.639
sounds like he did some awful things.

1239
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:30.920
He did some horrible things. They weren't the only ones.

1240
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:32.960
I think we know more about the actions of Chris

1241
01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:35.119
and Paul, but I think a lot of those teachers

1242
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:38.800
did really, really horrible things to young women. Actor Hugh

1243
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:41.760
Jackman was so riveted by the Teacher's Pet podcast he

1244
01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:45.079
reached out to Headley Thomas. He was eight years old

1245
01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:48.119
and living in Sydney when his own mother left abruptly

1246
01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:51.400
and moved to England and another parallel to the podcast,

1247
01:06:51.559 --> 01:06:56.039
students at his high school were also sexually abused by teachers,

1248
01:06:56.599 --> 01:06:59.559
and before becoming an actor, he was a pe teacher

1249
01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:03.599
in England and interesting, Yeah, I think it's he might

1250
01:07:03.639 --> 01:07:07.639
be working with Hadley to make some sort of docuseries

1251
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:07.920
on this.

1252
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:08.760
Is that?

1253
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:13.199
What you call it a docuseries? Joanne is a polarizing

1254
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:16.119
figure in this story. Some say she was complicit in

1255
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:18.679
Lend's murder and was old enough to know not to

1256
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:21.840
get involved with a married teacher. What Others say she

1257
01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:24.239
was a victim. What do you think?

1258
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:27.440
I feel a lot of empathy for Joanne in this story.

1259
01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:32.320
She was young, she was clearly groomed by Chris. We

1260
01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:34.480
talked about it in part one. But I do have

1261
01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:36.639
a bit of a problem the way she treated the

1262
01:07:36.679 --> 01:07:39.400
two girls. Absolutely, like, you know, at least try to

1263
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:42.440
be nurturing and be a mother to them. But I

1264
01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.519
have a lot of sympathy for her. I think she

1265
01:07:44.599 --> 01:07:45.440
is a victim in this.

1266
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:50.400
You know, for sure, I agree completely. Do you think

1267
01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:52.719
that if Chris had a jury trial that he would

1268
01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:53.599
have been found guilty?

1269
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:55.920
I was thinking about that. I think he might have

1270
01:07:55.960 --> 01:07:59.400
gotten off if he had a jury trial, because I mean, really,

1271
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:01.840
if you look at the hard physical evidence, there's none.

1272
01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:06.360
There is none, It's all completely circumstantial. Having said that,

1273
01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:09.159
I do completely believe that he's guilty, and I'm glad

1274
01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:10.719
that justice was served.

1275
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:14.480
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Could Chris be cunning enough to

1276
01:08:14.519 --> 01:08:17.399
return to gilwing a drive to Mislead police and their

1277
01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:20.960
search for Lin's remains? Could he have buried Linz somewhere

1278
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.439
along the way when he picked up Joe Anne from

1279
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:24.960
Southwest Rocks.

1280
01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:27.760
I think on your second question, I think for sure

1281
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:29.560
he could have done that. I think one of the

1282
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:33.439
challenges Australia is there's so much open space and so

1283
01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:36.199
much land. I think it would be pretty easy to

1284
01:08:36.279 --> 01:08:38.520
hide a body somewhere that would never be found.

1285
01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:39.560
That's horrible.

1286
01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:41.319
Yeah, I don't know if he is cunning enough to

1287
01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:45.520
like intentionally mislead the police and make them believe that

1288
01:08:45.640 --> 01:08:48.560
her body was there. Maybe, but I don't know who knows.

1289
01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:52.960
So this took place in nineteen eighty two. If it

1290
01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:56.720
happened today, do you think people would instantly point fingers

1291
01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:57.239
at Chris?

1292
01:08:58.239 --> 01:08:59.039
Yes? I do.

1293
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:01.640
I think so too. Where do you think Lynn could

1294
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:04.720
be buried? I guess you kind of just said I

1295
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:05.880
think anywhere.

1296
01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:08.439
If most likely scenario is just somewhere out in the bush,

1297
01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:10.680
somewhere very remote.

1298
01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:13.319
If I had to say, I think that Lynn was

1299
01:09:13.359 --> 01:09:17.680
hastily buried at the property on Bayeview until he could

1300
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:20.439
dig her up and you know, take her out somewhere

1301
01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:24.560
in the bush. Because of the pink cardigan being buried.

1302
01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:27.760
Yeah, that is really strange to me. And it had

1303
01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:31.920
like you said, it had like slics slash marks. Yeah,

1304
01:09:31.960 --> 01:09:35.079
that is interesting. I wonder if he like missed, like

1305
01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:37.000
if he did that, if he just missed that.

1306
01:09:37.279 --> 01:09:39.960
Well he maybe he could have. She was dug up

1307
01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:43.199
at night and he missed the juice boxes and the

1308
01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:47.199
toys and things like that, or when he remember when

1309
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:49.560
he would turn return to baby and he would run by,

1310
01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:53.960
you know, the property. Maybe he realized that those things

1311
01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:56.319
were in the ground, and maybe that even just those

1312
01:09:56.319 --> 01:09:57.680
things being there made him nervous.

1313
01:09:57.760 --> 01:09:58.439
Yeah, could be.

1314
01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:03.239
And and I focused a lot on Chanelle's story because

1315
01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:05.279
it was so heartbreaking to me. And in a lot

1316
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:08.520
of these cases, we don't really know the impacts of

1317
01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:12.039
the children, and Chanelle really has suffered. She seems like

1318
01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:14.600
a lovely woman, but she has really struggled with her

1319
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:17.359
mental health and she's trying to move past it. But

1320
01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:20.039
it's you know, it's really hard after you go through

1321
01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:22.680
such a traumatic event to try to live a normal life.

1322
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:25.840
Yeah, I can't even imagine. But hearing her words and

1323
01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:29.439
the quotes that we you included in the episode, really

1324
01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:31.760
it made me feel good because it really feels like

1325
01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:35.359
she is really dealing with it or trying her best,

1326
01:10:35.399 --> 01:10:38.079
doing whatever she can to deal with it. And that's

1327
01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:40.960
it's admirable that she has had the courage to try

1328
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:43.560
to confront all of this head on and try to

1329
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:45.920
deal with all these the trauma that she's been Yeah.

1330
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:48.039
Absolutely, And I think she knows that forgiveness is an

1331
01:10:48.039 --> 01:10:49.640
important part of her recovery.

1332
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:52.399
I also feel really bad for Sharon. It sounds like

1333
01:10:52.439 --> 01:10:54.399
she's not dealing with it as much, or has it

1334
01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:56.359
kind of bottled up or is in a little bit

1335
01:10:56.359 --> 01:10:59.159
of denial. But she is obviously no less of a

1336
01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:00.600
victim in this whole thing, and.

1337
01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.800
It's really we just don't know her story as well. Yeah,

1338
01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:07.319
Chanelle's lifestyle is I'm not sure what the right word is, Bohemian.

1339
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:11.880
She believes in like alternate methods of healing, and she's

1340
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:15.039
very spiritual and I think that has given her a

1341
01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:17.960
lot of comfort over the years. One last thing before

1342
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:19.680
we go is I just I don't think Chris was

1343
01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:22.760
a criminal mastermind. I think he got lucky.

1344
01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:25.039
Yeah, I think so too.

1345
01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:28.600
Because there was never an initial investigation, and I guess.

1346
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:31.640
Yeah, heard, We've seen it in other cases. And I've

1347
01:11:31.640 --> 01:11:35.039
always thought that if you if you kill someone and

1348
01:11:35.239 --> 01:11:37.800
no one is really looking hard for them for a

1349
01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:40.039
period like a fairly long period of time, if you

1350
01:11:40.079 --> 01:11:42.880
can somehow arrange that, you're much more likely to get

1351
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:45.239
away with it. And I think for all the different

1352
01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:48.279
circumstances you talked about, that's what happened in this case.

1353
01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:52.000
Is you know, if people had focused much earlier on it,

1354
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:54.720
probably would have had a different outcome, and it's really

1355
01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:56.359
sad that that didn't happen.

1356
01:11:56.960 --> 01:11:58.920
It's interesting to think too, like if he would have

1357
01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:02.640
been prosecuted like more quickly, he'd probably be a free

1358
01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:05.800
man today. But he did get to live like his

1359
01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:09.039
you know, forty years right in the prime of his

1360
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:10.600
life when Lynn.

1361
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:14.199
Yeah, that makes me a little bit angry. Justice was

1362
01:12:14.319 --> 01:12:17.439
done finally, but he got to live almost his whole

1363
01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:19.560
life with no consequences at all.

1364
01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:28.319
Yeah. We get a lot of messages from our listeners,

1365
01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:31.800
and we're so grateful for all of them. But a

1366
01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:36.640
lot of people are struggling and going through hard things. Yeah,

1367
01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:41.439
and we're both getting emotional already, so we're thinking of

1368
01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:44.760
you and we're sending our love and support. And the

1369
01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:48.239
fact that our podcast gives anyone any joy and comfort

1370
01:12:48.359 --> 01:12:50.560
just makes us so so happy he.

1371
01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:53.119
Does, or it adds a distraction to your day to

1372
01:12:53.199 --> 01:12:56.000
day worries and challenges. We got an email the other

1373
01:12:56.119 --> 01:12:59.960
day from a listener who told us about her voice.

1374
01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:02.560
She has three boys, and one of the boys, an

1375
01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:05.880
eight year old, was diagnosed with brain cancer when he

1376
01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:09.039
was four years old, and she sent us a picture

1377
01:13:09.039 --> 01:13:11.000
of him, and she told us a story about how

1378
01:13:11.640 --> 01:13:14.520
when he's going into treatment for his cancer treatments, he

1379
01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:17.560
on the way to the treatments, he plugs in, puts

1380
01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:20.479
his headphones on, listens to Taylor Swift, and so she

1381
01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:23.840
is left like there with nothing to distract her, and

1382
01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:26.680
she worries, and so she sent us an email to

1383
01:13:26.720 --> 01:13:30.840
thank us because our podcast and others helped to provide

1384
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:33.560
her a distraction from her life, and it just, oh,

1385
01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:35.640
it got to both of us so much. Yeah, just

1386
01:13:36.279 --> 01:13:39.640
made us feel you know, we're just putting out a

1387
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:43.199
little true crime podcast, but it definitely made us feel

1388
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:45.640
a responsibility to do as good of a job as

1389
01:13:45.680 --> 01:13:48.640
we can for people like her and others who are

1390
01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:52.039
listening and who are maybe struggling through hard times. So yeah,

1391
01:13:52.319 --> 01:13:54.520
we just wanted to share that and just thank all

1392
01:13:54.560 --> 01:13:57.359
of you because you really make what we do.

1393
01:13:58.079 --> 01:14:00.000
When you've made us better, You've made our lives better,

1394
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:04.119
and we're a mom and dad first, and you know,

1395
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:06.239
we just our hearts go out to all of you

1396
01:14:06.279 --> 01:14:08.520
that are having a hard time, especially this time of year.

1397
01:14:09.720 --> 01:14:12.000
If you're a regular listener of Love Mary Kill, you

1398
01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:14.600
know that every month we donate at least twenty five

1399
01:14:14.640 --> 01:14:17.840
percent of our earnings from ad revenues and from our

1400
01:14:17.840 --> 01:14:20.800
patron program to a worthwhile cause. So we wanted to

1401
01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:23.119
let you know that this month we made our donation

1402
01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:24.520
to No Kid Hungry.

1403
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:28.560
No Kid Hungry is an amazing organization. It breaks my

1404
01:14:28.600 --> 01:14:32.199
heart to think of any child, anyone, but especially children

1405
01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:36.720
that might be struggling with hunger and not have enough food.

1406
01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:39.880
So we're very proud to make this donation. We appreciate

1407
01:14:40.039 --> 01:14:44.840
your support endlessly. So yesterday we made the Anzac biscuits

1408
01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:47.720
and it got to me thinking about Australia and New Zealand.

1409
01:14:48.439 --> 01:14:51.760
You know, they are neighbors, yes, and I think they're

1410
01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:54.000
obviously they're friendly with each other. But I was just

1411
01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:56.920
wondering if it was like like a United States Canada

1412
01:14:56.960 --> 01:15:01.880
type relationship or like a Michigan Oh I always type relationship,

1413
01:15:02.279 --> 01:15:06.039
Like are they competitive or you know, does everyone just like, oh,

1414
01:15:06.079 --> 01:15:09.079
we love the Kiwi's.

1415
01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:11.159
Is that what you call that's what you call New Zealanders?

1416
01:15:11.199 --> 01:15:11.600
I think so?

1417
01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:12.359
Yeah.

1418
01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:15.039
So if the Kiwis and the Aussies get along.

1419
01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:17.600
So yeah, I don't It's a good question. I don't know,

1420
01:15:17.640 --> 01:15:19.039
but I'm curious about the same.

1421
01:15:21.439 --> 01:15:22.640
Very affable people talk.

1422
01:15:22.520 --> 01:15:24.960
About them in the same breath. It's Australia, New Zealand.

1423
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:27.680
So I love Canadians. I think Canadians are great. I'm

1424
01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:29.960
not sure if Canadians love Americans as much, but I

1425
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:35.119
always think they're I always feel good about having Yeah,

1426
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:39.119
and you know they they're always nice. And oh wait,

1427
01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:42.159
we said this recently that Americans I think are actually

1428
01:15:43.720 --> 01:15:46.439
like it was some sort of survey, like Americans are

1429
01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:47.399
friendlier than.

1430
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:50.239
I'm sure questioned at the time.

1431
01:15:50.640 --> 01:15:51.920
We do question that a little bit.

1432
01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:55.279
I like every Australian I've met pretty much. I'm trying

1433
01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:57.680
to think of there's a reception much. I can't think

1434
01:15:57.680 --> 01:16:00.199
of any exceptions. I like all of them as well.

1435
01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:03.319
I don't really know any New Zealanders any Kiwis, but

1436
01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:04.319
I think.

1437
01:16:04.159 --> 01:16:06.960
A couple of people from New Zealand have reached out.

1438
01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:10.239
I mean, everyone who reaches out to us is lovely. Yeah,

1439
01:16:10.359 --> 01:16:14.319
except for like, but that's no, not even one percent.

1440
01:16:14.359 --> 01:16:18.000
It's a very small amount, which is fine. Yeah, all right,

1441
01:16:18.039 --> 01:16:19.319
So what are we going to do with the rest

1442
01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:22.760
of our weekend? Are we just gonna gaze into each

1443
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:25.640
other's eyes lovingly? And seeing Christmas.

1444
01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:27.680
We do like we do every weekend every Yeah, I

1445
01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:29.520
think we need to go get a Christmas tree. You

1446
01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.680
get a Christmas tree behind on that or behind.

1447
01:16:32.920 --> 01:16:35.720
Well, I'm so glad I decorated the house because I

1448
01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:38.000
did get kind of busy, so at least that is done.

1449
01:16:38.039 --> 01:16:40.319
So the tree is always kind of like, well, there's

1450
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:44.119
lights in every place in the house. So we're decorated,

1451
01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:45.560
but we just don't have a tree.

1452
01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:48.640
Yeah, I need to do some Christmas shoft Oh do

1453
01:16:48.800 --> 01:16:51.239
you I do? I haven't started yet.

1454
01:16:52.039 --> 01:16:54.560
You're good. Yeah, you've been bugging me about going to

1455
01:16:54.600 --> 01:16:57.359
see Wicked. You won't shut up about it, so maybe

1456
01:16:57.359 --> 01:16:57.920
we can do that.

1457
01:16:59.159 --> 01:17:01.359
I would go see Wicked. I have not been bugging

1458
01:17:01.359 --> 01:17:03.000
you about it. This is It's one of those that

1459
01:17:03.039 --> 01:17:05.840
I'm like, I know everyone says it's great and so

1460
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:07.920
I will go see it, but I'm not, oh William

1461
01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:08.640
excited about it.

1462
01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:09.840
I mean, I don't want to bug you about it.

1463
01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:11.279
I kind of I want to see it. I'm not

1464
01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:14.960
dying to see it, but people do say it's life changing.

1465
01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:18.159
I am excited about two movies coming out on Christmas Day,

1466
01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:21.960
So the Bob Dylan biopic, Yeah, and No Sparatu, which

1467
01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:26.720
I miss really good traditional sort of vampire movies, and

1468
01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:29.239
I think No Sparatu everything I've heard it's going to

1469
01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:30.319
be really really good.

1470
01:17:30.439 --> 01:17:30.600
You know.

1471
01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:33.840
I think it's great when people take a day to themselves.

1472
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:37.800
I just you don't need to see anyone else. I

1473
01:17:37.880 --> 01:17:41.039
know it can be an immersive experience and you can

1474
01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:42.199
go by yourself.

1475
01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:43.960
How about I go see Wicked with you? If you

1476
01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:46.840
go see No Sparatu, I go with me.

1477
01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:50.439
All right, Well, I see that's that's two movies for

1478
01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:52.600
one and yeah.

1479
01:17:52.520 --> 01:17:53.680
I think Wicked is longer.

1480
01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:59.039
Yeah, yeah, I think the Bob I really don't. It's

1481
01:17:59.119 --> 01:18:01.720
kind of funny because there's really loves Bob Dylan's music,

1482
01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:04.199
and you love Bob Dylan. I some a few of

1483
01:18:04.239 --> 01:18:08.399
his songs, but his it just drains me. So I'm

1484
01:18:08.399 --> 01:18:10.039
not dying to see it, but I think I would.

1485
01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:12.880
I would pick that over nos Faratu. But maybe it's

1486
01:18:12.920 --> 01:18:13.880
maybe it's gonna be great.

1487
01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:16.000
Yeah, I'll go see both of them. If I have

1488
01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:18.199
to see one of them by myself, I will.

1489
01:18:18.840 --> 01:18:22.359
Well, we have wasted enough of your time today. That's it.

1490
01:18:22.960 --> 01:18:23.319
That's it.

1491
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:26.479
Don't kill your husband. I don't kill your wife, Happy

1492
01:18:26.520 --> 01:19:02.119
holidays to