Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 2 of 3

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband and. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I am good. It's good to have you back for part two? Are you me? I know you're great to be a special guest host. You excited to get into part two of this story?

0:40 Oh my well, I think that it's going to be three parts, So can we just skip to part three. And then we can just No, I think there's a lot of stuff in part two that you're gonna want to hear. Keep saying that I just cleaned the bathroom. I forgot that we were recording today, so I was cleaning, and then you were like, are you ready? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I can do it all. You can. You're a renaissance woman. You can clean. I've got dinner in the crock pot. You're amazing, You're amazing. All right, all right, stop? So I really am here just for the snack. And you were up till all hours of the night in the kitchen. I'm a little worried you might not love this snack, but we'll see. I'm excited about it. Oh, I'm really I'm super excited about it. So last time we had moon pies, Yeah, I.

1:27 Didn't love that. I'm sorry I was a little I was a little negative about them. Okay, Well, today our case is actually going to take us to New Hampshire. So I was looking into New Hampshire. Snacks and hey, that's where our friends Abby and Allie live from. About time for true crime podcasts. They're the best, so please go listen to them. I've been meaning to give them a shout out. They're so lovely and amazing and it's like listening to two friends talk and they listen to our podcast all the time and promote us. So it's about time that we recognize them. Very cool. Well, when I did some research into New Hampshire snacks, what I found was that there aren't a lot of snacks that New Hampshire is known for. There's a there's a Reddit thread and the top answer and the Reddit thread was gas station chicken tender. But I didn't get you gas station chicken tenders.

2:16 Okay, you have me a perplex there for a minute. No, but what I did find is that so we had moon pies yesterday. Moon pies are not popular in the north, but what is popular in the Northeast our wookie pies. Oh, you made a homemade whoope pie. I made homemade whoopie pies. Okay, I've made them before, but not for a long time, did you. I don't remember. Yeah, pumpkin, I made pumpkin like cream cheese whoopy pies. You probably were eye friends or something. I don't know. Yeah, well, these are chocolate with like a marshmallow fluff filling. I know you're not the biggest marshmallow fans, so that's. Kind of funny that. Yeah, you were making me too marshmallow. I like marshmallows in some ways, but it's hard to explain. Well, hopefully you like these. I think they're pretty interesting. I'm so proud that looks beautiful.

2:57 I think they came out. Okay, I do a couple of facts about whoopee pie. Of course you do. Of course I didn't have a song. Should we just write a song right now? I have a song? Oh God. So the one thing I wanted to say is that the origins of the whoopee pie are in dispute, so Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Virginia all claimed to be the birthplace of the whoopee pie. Oh interest. It was a little bit of battle there. But when we were in Maine, I had at least one or maybe two whoopee pies? Did you? Yeah? Which were you were? You were sick so you weren't there, but yeah, I did. I remember when we were in Maine. Maine was beautiful and lovely into until I got COVID, but that was not Maine's fault. But we really had our time finding a good doughnut. Remember, we were really just like before I got sick, I really wanted to do we could not really find. Maybe it was just the area we were in, but the big good selection wasn't amazing.

3:50 No, it wasn't as good as we had home. I'm curious where you found the woope pipe, but go ahead. Hey. The name whoopee pie comes from the story that Amish women would put the treats in their farmers lunchboxes and the farmers would yell whoopee when they found Oh, okay, so excited. Yeah, they're alternately called a black moon, a gob, a black and white a BOB, or a BFO, which stands for big fat oreo. Oh. Interesting. It's nothing to do with a whoopee cushion, then, not that I know of, No or like making whoopee. No, I don't think so. Okay, but I do have a song about a whoopee pie. It's not as good as the moonpie song. It's by a band called the Hungry Food Band. Okay, it's off their classic twenty ten album Delicious Songs About Yummy Food Shocked.

4:37 We don't have that album in our in her possession. But let's enjoy this whoopee pie. I said, woop be whoop be my, oh my, there ain't nothing better than woopbeg pie. No such thing as a price too high. I'm still gonna buy that whoopy pie. No man, of what is costing. I need those slices of cake. That's sandwich frosty, yummy, yummy, yummy, yummy yummy. How did you like the whoopie pie? I mean, first of all, let's all applaud your attention to detail. I mean, that's it's pretty impressive. I just throw you a bag of chips. Since I do that a lot too. We're done. But uh, if a ten out of ten, it was amazing. You did a fabulous job. They're really tasty.

5:21 Yeah, I really liked it. I don't, but it is. Yeah, you were just gonna say, it's sticking to your fingers, sticking to my fingers and actually, god, some on my microphone. Yeah, but I think it would be really good frozen too. Yeah, maybe it would be like less messy but delicious free. Job's awesome. I'm giving it a ton out of ten too. Perfect. So it's Thanksgiving week, so before we jump into the case, we want to say Happy Thanksgiving to all our listeners. We're so thankful that you guys keep coming back and keep listening and supporting us. We are extremely thankful for all of you. And another important thing this week, it's Richie's birthday. Yes, yes, so if anyone wants to send rich a message, I usually feel the social media things, but just send a message to Rich or if you make a comment on the episode, rich we'll see it there because you usually feel those things for sure. Okay, well, happy birthday, Well thank you. What do you want to do for your birthday?

6:16 You know, I just want to watch the Lions on Thanksgiving and have a big victory on Thanksgiving Day. Your birthday is two days after that, though. Yeah, I know, I just want to I don't know, I just want to spend. Do you want? Do you want? What kind of cake? Do you want? Cherry chip cake? Of course? I figured? Okay, all right? Would you like to give us a quick recap of part one before we dive ahead into part two. A lot happened in part one, and you were nice enough to write a recap, so I'm just going to read you the recap that you wrote. In part one. We introduced Marie Hilly, her husband Frank, and there are two kids, Mike and Carroll, who happened to be the names of the Brady Bunch parents. They lived in Aniston, Alabama, named for Jennifer Aniston. In nineteen seventy five, got sick and passed away. The doctors weren't sure what he had, but they concluded that it was infectious hepatitis, but we question that. Soon after Frank died, Marie started reporting issues to the police, like NonStop nuisance phone calls. Fires. How many fires? There were a few fires, Yeah, a handful of probably four or five vandalism. She even had a bizarre incident where she claimed that someone was extorting her.

7:27 The police eventually came to the conclusion that she was making all of this up for attention. Marie also had a spending problem. She ran up debts at department stores and banks, and she had a habit of writing bad checks. In nineteen seventy nine, when Marie's daughter Carol was nineteen, she started getting sick. She had very similar symptoms that her dad had. Carrol's illness went on for months. She lost a lot of weight and started having difficulty walking. Doctors, with Marie's prompting, began to suspect a psychological cause. When we left off, Carol was still in the hospital, Marie was arrested for passing bad checks, and Mike was starting to grow suspicious that his mom may have killed his dad after his grandma told him about Marie giving frank injections shortly before he died. One thing that we didn't mention was Marie was shady even with her own kids.

8:20 She had just sold Carol's car out from under her. She used Mike's she stole like a credit card from him, and she sold some blank checks from him, and. Yeah, and he gave her a car. She promised to make the payments. Silence, She didn't make the payments. She was going to pay the utility bills for her mother in law who she was living with, and she never did. So, yeah, she was really she lied about a lot of things. Carol was still in the hospital and still struggling. In addition to the treatment that doctors were ordering, her mom was giving her pills to take as well. Although Carol and her mom had their conflicts, Carol trusted Marie implicitly, so she took any pills given to her without qu question.

9:01 At one point, Marie told Carrol that she had met a woman in the hospital waiting room whose daughter was having the same problems as Carol. The woman told Marie about some medication that it helped. Marie told Carroll she could probably get some of the medication from her neighbor, Doris, who was a registered nurse. Carol said, sure, what do I have to lose? So she's in the hospital and that's very strange. Yes, it is. Soon Marie returned with the medication, which she gave to Carol in the form of an injection. Oh my gosh. She made Carol promise not to tell anyone, because she said Doris could get into big trouble if anyone found out. The injection didn't seem to help. In fact, the numbness in Carol's legs seemed to get worse and was expanding up higher to the upper part of her legs. Marie suggested another injection, and Carol agreed. Although Carol had promised not to tell anyone about the injections, she did tell her friend Eve while talking to her on the phone one day. It's quite possible that this revelation ended up saving Carol's life. Eve thought that it didn't seem right that Marie was giving injections to Carol while she was in the hospital. Eve knew Carol's aunt Freda, and called her to discuss the situation. Frida had heard her mom talk about the injections that Marie had given Frank before his death. She was alarmed and she called up Mike.

10:23 Mike was also alarmed and worried about his little sister. He called her up right away and asked if their mom had been giving Carol injections. Carol said no, of course, Why do you ask Mike? Pressed her until finally she admitted that, yes, Marie had given her some injections. She said that Marie promised her they would help and that she could get out of the hospital. Mike didn't tell Carol what he was thinking. He just told her, don't let mom give you any more injections. Oh boy, if I remember back to part one, you said that Marie had taken out life insurance policies on Mike and Carol. Yeah, that's right. She took out life insurance on her self but also on her kids, which is pretty unusual for a parent to take out life insurance on their adult.

11:05 Children, scusually because Mike was married. Yeah. Yeah. By this time, Carol was down to eighty one pounds from her original one hundred and five pounds. She was wasting away. Her Doctors were still baffled, but they started getting the impression that Marie's presence seemed to exacerbate Carroll's condition. Whenever Marie was around, Carol seemed to get worse, both emotionally and physically. Also, Mike had called the hospital asking if it was possible that Marie had been giving injections to Carol, which they were surprised to hear. Considering these factors, the doctors sat down with Marie and asked her to refrain from visiting her daughter for a while. Marie objected, but eventually she agreed. The hospital staff hung a no visitor's sign on Carol's door. After just one day, though, Marie called the hospital and begged them to let her visit her daughter. They told her no, so Marie said, well, well, I'm just going to take her out of there. Then she showed up that afternoon and barged into Carol's room, saying, we're getting you out of here. It was clear that the hospital staff did not approve, but Carol was happy to be getting out. She hated being in the hospital.

12:14 Oh my gosh. Marie had moved out of her mother in law's house by this point and was staying at the Holiday Inn near the Birmingham Airport, just temporary until she could get a place of her own. She said she took Carol there, stopping for pizza on the way. Carol was really happy to be free again, but the next morning, Marie told Carol that she was taking her to a different hospital. They needed to figure out what was going on. Carol was angry. She was sick of hospitals, but Marie insisted. She drove Carol to the University of Alabama Hospital, where she was examined by a neurologist. By this time, she had no feeling in her feet or legs. She was virtually paralyzed below the knees and could barely use her hands.

12:58 She told the doctor. Every every one thinks I'm crazy, but I promised you this is not all in my head. The doctor seemed to believe her. The first thing the neurologist did was to run tests to rule out Gianbarr syndrome or GBS. GBS is a rare but serious autoimmune disorder that occurs when the body's immune system attacks the peripheral nervous system. The early symptoms of GBS were similar to what Carol was experiencing. However, the tests came back negative. Carol's ailment was still a mystery. Why do you think Marie brought Carol back to the hospital. I don't know. It's so strange her behavior. You know, she was, on the one hand, she was you know, I think, as you all know by now, was poisoning Carol.

13:42 But on the other hand, she was like anxious to get her help and actually kind of concerned mother. So kind of a Munchausen by proxy, yeah, syndrome. Type thing, sort of seems that way. The first day of Carol's stay at the University of Alabama Hospital, a man came in asking for Marie. They talked outside of car Carrel's room. Then Marie came in to tell Carol that she had to go with the man, something about a misunderstanding regarding a car that Marie was buying. In reality, though Marie had been arrested again, she had continued writing bad checks, and to make matters worse, she had failed to show up in court for a hearing on her earlier charges. She was taken to the Birmingham City Jail, where she spent the night with her mom gone.

14:25 Carol called her aunt Freda, begging her for help. Carol just wanted to get out of the hospital and was hoping Frida could help. Freda agreed to come right away. Freda, Marie's sister in law, had been in contact with Mike and they had talked about the possibility that Marie may have killed her husband, Frank. Freda had been close to Marie, but she was now starting to have doubts of her own about her sister in law. When Freda arrived at the hospital, she asked to speak with Caroll's doctor. She poured out all of her fears and suspicions to him. She worried that the doctor might think she was crazy, but he seemed to take her seriously. When they finished, he went to examine Carol again, this time considering the possibility of poison. Heavy metals like lead, mercury, and arsenic could all cause the symptoms that Carol was experiencing. Definitive testing for arsenic and other heavy metals was a time consuming process, but there was a shortcut. Arsenic and other heavy metals cause something called aldrich Mes lines, which are white lines that appear across fingernails and toe nails starting about six weeks after someone is poisoned. The neurologists looked at Carol's nails and sure enough, there were the telltale lines.

15:38 There were a couple of other potential causes of aldrich Mes lines. Blium poisoning from insecticides and a medicine used to treat tuberculosis could both cause them as well, but those were quickly eliminated as possibilities. The diagnosis was clear. Carol Hilly had been suffering from arsenic poisoning for months on and there is no effective treatment for arsenic poisoning unless it's caught early, within the first twenty four hours of exposure. The only cure is time. Carrol's doctor immediately had her moved to a different floor of the hospital, with only authorized visitors being allowed to know her new location. Murray was not on that list. Preta stayed with Carol overnight.

16:21 Carol called Mike and told him that she had arsenic poisoning. Mike immediately called the Anniston, Alabama coroner back, saying he had new information. I don't know if you remember, but in part one, Mike had called the coroner when he suspected that his mom had poisoned his dad, and they told him call us back. If you get more information than maybe we'll be able to exhume his body. Okay. The coroner told him to put everything he knew in a letter. He typed up a three page letter documenting everything regarding his dad's illness and death, his sister's illness and diagnosis, and the injections that Marie had given both of them. When the coroner received the letter, he called up Lieutenant Gary Carroll of the Anniston Police Department.

17:04 Lieutenant Carroll had always viewed Marie as an odd, eccentric person who seemed to crave attention, but he also thought of her as harmless. Now he started to reconsider that assessment. He came to the hospital to interview Carroll and her doctors, collecting medical records for both Carrol and Frank. Testing came back and confirmed the presence of arsenic in Carroll's hair. Lieutenant Carroll then went to the Birmingham City Jail and signed Marie out, taking her back to the police station for an interview. He asked Marie about Frank's illness and death, and also about the death of Marie's mother, Lucille. Soon after, he asked if Marie had given them injections, and Marie said yes, A couple of times she had given them morphine injections when the nurse couldn't be there. Lieutenant Carroll started wondering, did Marie kill her mother too? I forgot about Lucille. He then shifted to talking about Carroll's illness.

17:59 Marie knew by this time that Carol had been diagnosed with arsenic poisoning, but she claimed to have no idea how Carol could have been poisoned. She denied giving Carroll any injections, but when Lieutenant Carrol persisted, she finally admitted that, yes, she had been giving her an injection of fenergan a nauseous as present. She said the doctor had given it to her to administer as needed, but she swore quote, I didn't give her anything poisonous. I never have given her anything poisonous. Lieutenant Carroll pressed her about the injection, Knowing that a doctor wouldn't give Marie a syringe of medication, Marie changed her story and said that she had met a woman in the lobby of the hospital. She recalled the woman's name as Missus Hill, and that Missus Hill's daughter in law was a nurse and that's how she got the medication. She couldn't remember the nurse's full name, she just knew it Aschootz. Oh my goodness.

18:55 Yeah, Marie had quite the imagination. I mean, this is it's just a bizarre stary. Sorry, if you think about it, like she's saying, she met a woman in the hospital who got her daughter in law to give her some medication. And then she gave that medication to her daughter. And it's just crazy, right, And you're just getting medication from some person you don't really know and injecting it into your daughter right when you're at a hospital. Yeah. Lieutenant Carroll asked Marie who she thought was most likely to have poisoned her daughter. She said, quote, well, I know I'm the number one suspect. I'm her mother. I mean I should be the last suspect. Yeah, you should be, Marie. Then Lieutenant Carroll shifted the conversation to ask Marie whether she ever had mental lapses, suggesting that maybe Marie had poisoned her daughter during one of these lapses. Marie seemed to consider this possibility. She said, well, I guess everybody has those types of mental lapses sometimes, but she said she didn't think it was possible that she had poisoned her daughter during one of those lapses.

19:55 I thought we could do a little bit of true crime theater with the next part of Lieutenant Carroll's terryation of Marie. Ohuld you like to play the part of Marie. I would like to be Lieutenant Carroll. No, I will be Lieutenant Carroll. Well, why did you ask that. I don't know. I just thought it would be nice, but let's do it. Well, If I am having mental lapses, i'd sure like to get some help for me, Marie. Do you not think that you might need some help? Yeah? I need some help. Gary, you know it and I know it. Right. Yeah, that's right, you do need some help. I understand, Marie. I know you've had a lot on your mind. But I'm not. Oh, I think everybody. I could use a psychiatrist now and then. But no, I don't mean it. No, I can't ever think that I would hurt my daughter.

20:37 I couldn't do that. You don't poison your own children. Don't you think there might be another side to you, Marie? I hope not that kind of side. But don't you think there could be? Well? I don't know, but I don't want there to be. Well. Listen, Marie, I've talked to some people that know you fairly well, and they say that sometimes you act like two different people. Gary. I couldn't do that to Carol. I know, the real you couldn't. But maybe some other person could do that to Carol. Marie. I couldn't, Gary, not the real you. But what's the real me? Then do you think I'm crazy? Gary? I didn't say that, Marie, but I do think you need. A person would have to be crazy to do something like that. You know that, Well, do you think you're crazy?

21:19 I'm beginning to wander since I've been up here a week, But I don't think that I'm that kind of crazy. Maybe other people can see something in me that I don't see on myself. Gary, I can't believe there is a side to me that could do that. Now, if a psychiatrist digs that out of me and says there are two people and I could do that, that, I might accept it. But I cannot accept the fact that there is a side of me that could. Well, I am not a psychiatrist. All I know is what people that know you and have known you for a number of years, what has been told to me. Like I say, well, my son's told me something of the same thing, and I agreed with him. I would go to a psychiatrist when I get out. It's the first thing I would do. What was the first indication that you had that you needed some help? Well, I had this feeling It's like you're sitting off but you're looking on at everybody. You know, nothing seems real, That's what I mean. Instead of mental laps, it's more just like nothing is real. Like this doesn't even seem real to me right now, being up there in the city jail doesn't seem real. It's like I'm asleep and I'm going to wake up and everything's going to be okay.

22:19 In other words, like you're in another dimension and you're just seeing yourself act out what you've. That's right, and it's just you know, like that's not me, and you know, I wake up after a while. If there's any casting directors out there, call me. It felt like Marie was on the verge of confessing, or at least admitting that she might have poisoned Carol during a mental lapse, but the interview ended without any further revelations. Marie was returned to the city jail. The next step in the investigation was to exuom Frank's body. By this time, the press had gotten wind of the developing story, and they showed up in force to report on the exhamation Frank's cast. It was dug up and his body sent to the Alabama Department of Forensic Science in Birmingham, for an autopsy on October third, nineteen seventy nine.

23:08 The coroner also collected samples of water that had gathered in the casket, along with some mud from the area. As arsenic is often found in groundwater and soil, this would allow them to compare those levels with any arsenic detected in Frank's body. Smart The autopsy showed the presence of significant amounts of arsenic in Frank Hilly's body, although they weren't yet ready to say whether the arsenic caused his death or not. While the investigation was proceeding, Frida went over to her mother, Carrie's house, where Marie had been staying. Although Carrie was dying of cancer, Frieda started to wonder whether Marie had poisoned her as well. Marie had been living with Carrie for a year, and Carrie had experienced a number of stomach issues during that time.

23:52 Freda looked through the things that Marie had left behind at Carrie's house. She found the unpaid utility bills that Marie had promised to but never had. She found a small medicine bottle that was half full of liquid. Then free to remember that Marie had left a bunch of stuff in her own garage as well. When she was moving, she went back home and went through everything. She found three bottles of baby food. At one point Marie thought that maybe Carol would be able to eat that when she was struggling to keep food down. She also found a bottle that was labeled Cowley's Rat and Mouse poison. This was a liquid rat poison sold back in the day. The active ingredient arsenic trioxide. Ook Freeda took everything to the police station, where it was sent to a lab for testing. Lieutenant Carrol went back to the city jail and was given access to Marie's purse. In it were a number of medicine bottles filled with pills, powder, and liquid.

24:49 He sent it all off to the state crime lab. Lieutenant Carrol also requested that Marie's mother, Lucille's body be exhumed as well, and if Lucille's body showed of arsenic poisoning, the next step would be to exume Marie's father's body as well, although he had been dead for fourteen years by this time, so. At this point, how many people has Marie potentially poisoned? Her mother, her mother in law, her husband, her daughter. And there may be others as well. I don't know if you remember. In part one we talked about a little girl who was friends with her daughter Carol, a girl named Sonya Gibson who died suddenly after getting sick. So there's that possibility too, and there may be others as well. The bottom line is will never really know how many people she may have.

25:36 Oh my goodness. While Mike and Frieda were now convinced that Marie had poisoned at least Frank and Carol, Carol herself seemed to be in denial. She spoke with a reporter around this time and said, quote, I'm not going to believe it until it's proven. I love her because she's my mom. If she did it, she didn't realize what she was doing. My mother is not a bad person or anything. She's just been through a lot. She's had a lot on her mind since my dad died. It's interesting that Carol defended her mother so vociferously when she had been kind of mean to her her whole life. It is interesting and it just shows you, I think like the bond between mother and daughter, it's very complicated, right, They very they had a lot of conflicts but at the same time, you know, Carol loved her mom and relied on her.

26:22 I think it speaks higher of Carol than Marie. Yeah, for sure. In addition to the bad check charges already leveled against Marie, now she was charged with the attempted murder of her daughter. She wasn't charged with Frank's murder yet, pending further testing. Her bail was set at ten thousand dollars for the attempted murder charge and two thousand dollars each for the bad check charges. While the total bail amount of fourteen thousand dollars seemed ridiculously low for someone accused of attempted murder, Marie didn't have the money. He believed that ten thousand dollars bail for attempted murder. I mean that was a long time, that was over forty years. Yes, but it just seems really low to meh. Marie's lawyer called Mike and asked if he could make some calls to Marie's friends and former bosses to pay her bail.

27:09 Mike was reluctant, though in his opinion, his mother belonged in jail. He actually wrote a letter to the judge saying that his mother needed psychiatric help and that she should not be released. Mike also recalled how his wife had gotten sick. I forgot to mention that one yeah, and she had miscarried while Marie was living with them, so the question in his mind had Marie poisoned Terry as well. Lieutenant Carrol also wanted to see Marie remain in jail until her trial. He had heard that Marie told a cellmate that she was planning to take off if she was able to get released. He notified the DA's office, hoping they would petition to revoke her bail, but he was too late. Five local residents, including one of Marie's former employers, ponied up the fourteen thousand dollars and Marie was released. After she was released, she called Mike and asked him, Hey, do you have a credit card?

28:02 I could bark while Mike had learned his lesson by this point, and he said, no, Mom, you cannot have my credit card. Marie had retained local lawyers, Bill Andrews and Wilford Lane to defend her. After Marie was released, they received a call at their office. It was a woman's voice, not identifying herself. She asked, quote, are you the lawyer with Wilfrid Lane on the Marie Hilly case? Unquote? Andrews said yes he was, and then she said you had better get off the case or you'll be damn sorry. I can't imagine who that might have been. Calling him up. Fearing for her safety and also trying to keep the media away from her, Andrews and Lane checked Marie into a different hotel, the Roadway in under an assumed name.

28:48 A few days later, the lawyers came to her hotel to prep for an upcoming court appearance, but Marie was gone. Later that same day, Frank's mom, Carrie Hilly, passed away at age seventy one. Testing had shown traces of arsenic in her body, although she also had cancer. An autopsy was performed, but it was difficult to determine whether the actual cause of her death was the cancer or the arsenic. Eventually, they concluded that she died of natural causes. I'm sure the arsenic didn't help though, right, We'll be back after a break.

29:29 Marie's lawyers notified the police of her disappearance and an immediate manhunt was launched. There was a note left in Marie's room at the roadway in it said quote Lane you led me straight to her. You'll hear from me who's lane? Lane was her lawyer? Okay. It was intended to make it look as though Marie had been kidnapped, but the police weren't buying it. Marie's aunt an uncle who lived in Anniston, came home a day after Marie disappeared to find that their house had been broken into and their car was gone on. They found a note that said do not call the police. We will burn you out if you do. We've found what we wanted and won't bother you again. Your car is in Gadsten. Gadsden is about thirty miles from Anniston.

30:15 They called the police, knowing it must have been Marie. A few days later, their car was found parked at a bus station in Marietta, Georgia, ninety miles east of Anniston and nowhere near Gadsden. The DA requested a federal warrant for Marie. Over the next weeks, there were many reported sightings of Marie, some credible and others not so much. One woman reported having a friendly conversation with another woman on a bus headed to Savannah, Georgia. The woman fell asleep and woke up to find the other woman gone and her purse, money, and watch were all missing. Shown a picture of Marie, the woman identified her as the same woman that she had encountered. Investigators tried to pick up Marie's trail in Savannah, where the US had been headed.

31:01 There were several potential sightings there as well, but none of them panned out. Investigators spoke with Kelvin Robertson, Walter Clinton, and other men that Marie had worked with and had affairs with. In letters that Marie had written to both Kelvin and Walter, she had mentioned plans to marry a man named John Romans. I remember that they followed several leads trying to track down this guy, but they never found him, if he even existed. Investigators knew that Marie was very particular about her appearance, always being impeccably dressed in expensive clothing with her hair done. Based on this, they sent circulars to beauty parlors around the country, and beautician's magazines were asked to publish her picture. That's smart.

31:45 They also circulated her photo at finer clothing stores and boutiques throughout the South. They would send my picture to like target in Costco. While Marie was on the run. Testing on Frank's remains were completed. There was there's no doubt about it. He had been killed by arsenic poisoning. Because arsenic remains in the victim's hair, scientists can actually estimate when the arsenic was delivered and how much was ingested. In Frying's case, there were significant amounts of arsenic delivered over a long period of time, with a massive dose given near the end. It's kind of cool, like, I never really thought about that, but the hair can be like almost like a timeline of the arsenic being delivered, Like they can say, oh, a little bit was delivered here, then a little bit more, and then a lot.

32:30 So initially when she was poisoning Frank, she probably had no idea what a toxic dosage was. But she got pretty good at it, I guess because she had poisoned so many people. On January eleventh, nineteen eighty, two months after she disappeared, a grand jury indicted Marie in apsentia her first degree murder, in addition to killing Frank and attempting to kill Carol. Investigators began speculating about other possible poisonings. There was Carol's friend Sonya Gibson, who had died years early or after becoming ill. Mike's wife Terry, who had gotten sick and miscarried while Marie was living with them. Several police officers who had visited Marie after she had reported various incidents had sat down for coffee with Marie and later had gotten violently ill. Oh my gosh. There was a family who had lived next door to the Hillies and often had food or drinks that Marie provided.

33:23 The kids had several bouts of unexplained illness, all of which seemed to clear up after they moved away. There would be no way to know for sure how many people Marie had poisoned. Crazy, isn't it. Wow? Well, a little girl, Sonya, if I remember correctly, she was ten, Yeah, And did she often go to Marie's house? It was. I think it was only for a fairly short period of time. And I will say that I did read that they did actually end up exuoming her body eventually. Wow. And they did not find that she died of arsenic poisoning, but it was just unknown, like you know, did she poison her? Did she not? While the search for Marie continued, Carol was slow getting back to normal. She stayed with Frita for a few months until she regained her strength, then moved out, excited to finally be out on her own. However, she still struggled with her mental health and attempted suicide again in May nineteen eighty by overdosing on medication. It was a cry for help. Unfortunately, she survived. After spending a few days in the hospital. She emerged feeling positive and ready for a fresh start. Poor Carroll, she really went through it.

34:28 Carole had regained some of the weight she lost and recovered her strength and control of her limbs. She went back to school and changed major's to physical education. Finally, she seemed to be on the right track, despite initially being in denial. In an interview eight months after her mother disappeared, Carroll now made it clear that she had no doubt that Marie killed her father and had tried to kill her. Mike and Terry moved to Tennessee, where Mike started studying for his master's degree at the Emmanual School of Religion in Johnson City. One night, Mike he hurt his youngest son, nine months old, cry out. He went to check on him and saw a figure outside on the porch. He could tell it was a woman, but couldn't make out her features in the dark. It seemed like she was trying to open the window of her son's room. Behind her in the street, he saw two men standing next to a white Chevy Nova.

35:19 Ooh, it's pretty terrifying, isn't it. Yeah, well, I'm glad to hear that they went on and had children. Yeah. After their loss, Mike called the sheriff. As they waited for the police to arrive, he saw the woman move across the porch toward the front door. Terry said, quote, Mike, that looks like your mother. Suddenly, a house across the street turned on a bright spotlight and the owner came out of the house. The woman quickly left Mike's porch and drove off with two men. The police finally showed up, and Mike told them that he thought it may have been Marie. They showed a photo of Marie to the neighbor across the street and he said, yes, that was who he saw. Mike and Terry didn't see Marie again, but they lived in fear what if she came and tried to harm him him or his family. Soon, the sightings of Marie dwindled and the case faded into the background.

36:06 Three years went by with no sign of Marie Hilly. Wow. Three years. Do you know approximately how old she was at this time? I think when she disappeared she was around forty six, Okay. John Homan the third, not John Roman or John Romans, came from a prominent, well off family. His paternal grandfather had invented an insulating material in the eighteen hundreds called Homanite, which was significant and helped make electric motors possible, and his mom's family owned several businesses, including banks. John was the oldest of six kids. When he was young, the family migrated from Ohio to the sunny skies of Florida, but the family was troubled. John's mom was an alcoholic and went through frequent bouts of depression. She died when John was sixteen, and the family began falling apart. John's dad, also known as Big John, wanted his oldest son to go to college and get a good paying white collar job, but John liked working on cars and mechanical things. He started attending university, but quit to take a job installing toilets and stabilizing equipment on pleasure boats. After Anne Holman died, Big John remarried a woman named Judy, who had been a friend of Anne's and was twenty five years younger than Big John. Judy took over managing the trust fund money that supported the children. In nineteen seventy two, after celebrating his fifty fourth birthday, Big John had a massive heart attack and died. Soon after his death, John the

37:37 third got married to a woman named Linda, who he had been dating. He had started his own business called Crown Marine. He worked on boats, installing equipment, decking, and repair work on fiberglass hulls. He was out on his own, but most of his other siblings were still at home. Now being raised by Judy, John tried to help out as much as he could to be a surrogate pairarrant to his younger brothers and sisters. The trust money that was left to the children was automatically turned over to them when they turned twenty one. The amount was between one hundred and fifty thousand and two hundred thousand dollars for each child, or about a million dollars today. John had already gotten his and spent a lot of it on fancy cars, a sailboat, and other things, but the younger kids were still waiting on their inheritance. Big John had made a pact with his best friend, Bob Sammartino, who was a house builder. The two had agreed that if anything happened to one of them, the other would ensure the family of the person who died was looked after.

38:38 Bob convinced Judy and the kids to invest their inheritance in real estate. He was building homes all over the place and the market in Florida was booming. The kids looked to John as the eldest for guidance, and John agreed that it seemed like a good idea. While things started out good for the new family home building business home art enterprises, things soon went downhill. Cash flow was all going out and not enough coming in. Sam Martino kept coming back for more money, but there were always snags, and the homes that were supposed to be built kept getting delayed. Debts were piling up, and creditors were getting aggressive. Eventually, the whole thing collapsed in lawsuits and finger pointing many of the younger kids blamed their older brother John he should have done a better job looking out for their interests.

39:28 The end result was that John ended up estranged from the rest of his family. He and his wife drifted apart and separated by the late seventies. John had few friends and lived a mostly solitary life. It's not certain exactly when John met Marie Hilly. The fact that in late nineteen seventy eight Marie wrote in letters about a man she was planning to marry named John Romans tells us that she probably met him while she and Carol were in Florida. This was in the summer of nineteen seventy eight, when and they stayed with Mike and Terry for about three months. As John would later tell the story, he met Marie in a bar, but she said her name was Robbie Hannan. She told him that she was a prostitute, but that that night was her first attempt and she didn't know what she was doing. She told him she just needed money, she didn't really want to be a hooker. We're not sure what happened between John and Robbie Hannon, but Marie returned to Anniston, where it would be Just over a year before her arrest and jumping bail with John, Marie created a new story for her life as Robbie Hannon. She told him that she had been married at age sixteen in Texas to a man named Joseph Hannon. Joseph was a lawyer and a wealthy man. She and Joseph had two children together, Joey and Carol, and they had been a happy family until a drunk driver ran into her, killing the two children.

40:53 Robbie was wrecked with guilt, marked by nervous breakdowns, depression, and suicide attempts. Two years later, Joseph had died of a heart attack. Robbie left Texas to start anew Her husband had left her a big inheritance, and eventually she said she would go back to Texas to claim it, but for now she just needed to get away and start a new life. So, just to be clear, Marie made up this whole new identity for herself under the name Robbie Hannon. She made up a whole autobiography of this person, for this husband and kids. That none of that existed at all. Gotcha. In the spring of nineteen eighty, a few months after Marie Hilly disappeared, John's brother Peter came to visit from New Hampshire, where he had moved a few years earlier.

41:37 While John wasn't close to his siblings, he had at least stayed in touch with Peter. While visiting, Peter met John's new girlfriend, Robbie Hannon. He thought she was kind of strange, a bit eccentric. It was odd that she spilled out her whole life story to him within a few hours of meeting. She also told him that she was suffering from a brain tumor. It was under control at the moment, but she expected that it would kill her one day. Robbie and John seemed happy, though, so Peter tried to be supportive. When he heard that they were thinking about leaving Florida to make a fresh start somewhere new. Peter encouraged them to come and check out New Hampshire he and his wife. They did. He and his wife had bought some land and were fixing up a run down old farmhouse. John and Robbie made plans to come visit that summer. Robbie and John drove to Marlow, New Hampshire in late summer nineteen eighty in John's red pickup truck with their few possessions in the back. Marlowe is a small town population of just five hundred and forty two. In nineteen eighty, they stayed for a while at an inn, taking some drives around New England, trying to decide where they would live. They toyed with the idea of heading to the coast of Maine, where John could revive his boat business, but eventually they decided they liked Marlowe. It was quiet and people tended to mind their own business. They rented a small house and went to find work in Keene, New Hampshire, fifteen miles south.

43:03 They both went to an employment agency where they were impressed by Robbie's confidence, along with her excellent shorthand and typing skills. They referred her to the Central Screw Corporation, where a secretarial position had just opened up. Although she and John weren't married, she started using Homan as her last name. At this point, John got a job as a machinist at a company called Findings Incorporated, which made small parts like clasps and settings for jewelry. Both John and Robbie excelled in their new jobs. Robbie was quickly given a permanent position as a customer service clerk, working with large customers to manage their orders. John was recognized as one of the best machinists that worked at Findings.

43:47 He was always on time, reliable, and good at the job. John and Robbie settled into their new life. They would drive every morning to Keene together in John's pickup truck. They lived modestly in their small home with a few possessions. Robbie made friends at Central Screw quickly. Everyone seemed intrigued by this well spoken, out of towner who was always well dressed. They were fascinated by her story. In May nineteen eighty one, John and Robbie returned to Fort Lauderdale and got married there. The only guests in attendance were John's only friend, Manfred, and Manfred's wife. John didn't even tell any of his family members about the trip back to Florida or about his marriage.

44:29 To Robbie, so John believes that her name is Robbie correct. Robbie returned to New Hampshire, but John stayed in Fort Lauderdale for a while. He had an old knee injury that was flaring up, and he had a good orthopedist in Florida who had treated him in the past. Because Robbie didn't have a driver's license, she relied on John's brother Peter for rides everywhere while John was in Florida. Peter thought this would be a good opportunity to get to know his sister in law better, but he was surprised when and she used the drives to criticize John. She told Peter she was thinking of divorcing John. When he returned, Peter was shocked. He thought that his brother and Robbie were happy together and.

45:11 They had literally just gotten married, right yeah. When John returned, Robbie told him that Peter had left her stranded several times after promising to pick her up and give her rides. This was a lie, but John believed his new wife. He confronted Peter, who then angrily confronted Robbie. It turned into a shouting match. Peter called Robbie a liar and ended up storming out. The relationship between John and his brother, which had been growing warmer, was now cut off again. Robbie's relationships at work followed a similar pattern as Marie's work relationships had gone before. While she quickly made friends with her colleagues, the relationships soon soured. People saw her as full of herself and always needing to be the center of attention. She still got along well with her mostly male bosses, though. August nineteen eighty one, after working at Central Screw for nine months, Robbie announced that she was leaving the job. She was going back to Texas, she said, to settle things in her late husband's estate to get her inheritance. She was required to take up residence in Texas for several months.

46:16 John wasn't sure whether Robbie was planning to ever come back to New Hampshire or not. He thought their marriage might be at its end. Robbie, also known as Marie, did move to Texas for a time, just outside of Houston. She rented an apartment there and became good friends with the neighbor Judy Cox. She told Judy this same story about being married to a wealthy man, having two kids who were killed by a drunk driver, and then her husband dying of a heart attack. Robbie told Judy that she was there to settle her late husband's estate. Robbie also told Judy that she had a rare blood disease which caused her to suffer from frequent migraines. Robbie even moved in with Judy, her husband, and their son for a time when she said she needed a place to stay. She almost became part of the family, who were all sad when she told them she was heading back to New Hampshire. After a couple of months, they made plans to reunite for Thanksgiving, but Robbie never called Judy again after leaving.

47:12 She must have been very convincing of people, and very she was very good at manipulating people. The fact that someone who had known her for a very short time invited her to move in with them and her family just kind of shows you how she was able to do that. Yeah, well, John wasn't sure whether his marriage to Robbie was over or not. Robbie did come back to New Hampshire and he took her back. She went back to work at Central's Screw again, taking a new role working with large automotive customers to manage their accounts. She again did well at her job. Her boss, Ron Oha, could rely on her to handle things, and he knew that he didn't have to worry about her doing her job well. He quickly came to rely on her as one of his key employees. Most of the other women who had worked with Robbie before weren't so happy to have her back.

48:01 She did become close friends with a new girl who had started after Robbie went to Texas. Her name was Claudia Brooks. Robbie started telling people a news story. Now. She had an incurable blood disease. It was under control, but caused her to have bad headaches and to black out at times. John saw that at times Robbie would have a sudden attack where she would start talking in the voice of a little girl, or she would seemingly be in a trance where she would start maniacally babbling and crying. These spells might last a couple of hours, or sometimes they might last a whole night. When they would happen, John would do his best to try and comfort his wife. Robbie also started telling people about her identical twin sister, Terry, who lived in Texas. That's where that she was used the name Terry of her daughter in law.

48:51 A lot of her names. I didn't mention it, but like Robbie, I think was the name of a cousin of hers. I thought I remember hearing that name before. Yeah, Robbie. We described her blood disease as sort of the opposite of leukemia. Whereas leukemia is a type of blood cancer that occurs when the bone mirror produces too many abnormal white blood cells, Robbie said her body produced too many red blood cells. After returning from Texas and going back to work at Central Screw, Robbie's conditions seemed to worsen. Her headaches became more frequent, and her boss, Ron noticed that she looked increasingly fatigued. She told her colleagues that she had seen a bunch of specialists and that there was a doctor in Germany who was the most advanced researcher in the world on her disease. As a last resort, she was planning to fly to Germany to see this doctor.

49:41 In September nineteen eighty two, after being back at Central Screw for about nine months, Robbie told her colleagues that she was going back to Texas to see a doctor there, and that she would be staying with her sister Terry. She told John the same thing Robbie did head to Texas again, but this time she only stayed there for three days before heading to Florida. There, she stated at Howard Johnson's Motor Lodge, not far from where her son Mike had lived before. Soon after arriving, she walked to a nearby beauty salon and came out her formerly dark hair now bleached blonde. She went to an employment agency and filled out an application. Now her name was Teresa or Terry Martin. The employment agency found her a role as a bookkeeper and a typis for a company called Solar Testing Service. She worked for a man named Jack Mackenzie, who was quickly impressed with Terry. She told Jack that she didn't currently have transportation, though she would soon. Her sister lived in New Hampshire, she said, and she would eventually go up there to get her car and bring it back. In the meantime, Jack was fine picking her up.

50:48 It was not out of his way and Jack lived alone after divorcing his wife seven years earlier. Terry was an attractive woman, and Jack looked forward to the twenty five minute commute each morning and evening. During their commute, Terry told Jack about her twin sister Robbie in New Hampshire, her rare blood disease and the supernatural bond she shared with her twin. If Robbie was suffering, Terry said she could feel it too. Imagine how heart it would be to keep all this stuff straight. I was thinking that too. There's no way that I could do it, and I bet she couldn't do it either, But she tripped up all the time and people didn't notice. Terry told Jack that she herself was a widow and she had left New Hampshire to start fresh in Florida.

51:33 She said she didn't need to work, she had family money and owned a vacation home in California, but she wanted something to keep her busy. One day, Terry told Jack that she was thinking about buying a house. She was planning to fly her sister Robbie down from New Hampshire, along with her dog and the nurse who was caring for her. They would all live in the house so that Terry could be closer to her sister and help take care of her. On the way home that evening, Terry had Jack swing by the house she was planning to buy, even though the house needed work, Jack could tell it was an expensive home. Terry had actually talked to the owner of the home, who had given her a tour. She made a verbal offer of two hundred thousand dollars about six hundred and fifty thousand dollars to day, and he accepted. She promised to call him in the next day or two to make it official, but he never heard from her again.

52:23 Wow just bananas. After working for six weeks at solar testing, Terry told Jack that she needed to go to New Hampshire to see her sister, who wasn't doing well. She called Jack a couple of days later to say that Robbie had died and she needed to stay in New Hampshire to take care of things. Jack understood and wished Terry the best. So sad that Robbie died. If your twin dies, you really feel it. That's tough. In November nineteen eighty two, Terry Martin called John Homan to let him know that his wife, Robbie was dead. Oh boy. John had never met his wife's twins sister before. He must have noticed how similar her voice sounded to Robbie's.

53:04 She told him that she was getting on a plane and she was heading to New Hampshire. Robbie had written a long letter to Terry detailing her wishes. One of those wishes was that Terry would help John through his grieving process. When Terry arrived on November eleventh, Sean was waiting to pick her up at the airport. This is like a soap opera, it is. And she must have watched a lot of a lot of like As the World Turns or. Whatever or she did. Yeah, because it does sound like a soap opera. Holy moly, I'm afraid that's where we're going to have to end for part two. I can't believe there's a whole other part. I know, can you imagine what? I We'll talk about it in part three. But if you're John and you're waiting to pick up your dead wife's twin sister at the airport, what must have been going through his mind?

53:52 Do you think he was scared? What emotion do you think he was feeling? I can't even imagine. I mean it just the whole thing is just so bizarre in my mind. And I think John, we'll talk about it in part three, but I think he believed everything that his wife told him, and so I think he was just thought that his wife had died and thought he was hearing from her twin sister for the first time, and was just going to pick her up at the airport, thinking, right, I'm going to welcome her to New Hampshire. I forgot to tell you I have a twin sister. He really, what's her name? Can you imagine if there were two of me, you'd be like, oh, yeah, it's nuts.

54:34 It is when I think about all this stuff that Marie made up. You know, she's on the run from the law, and it seems like she should have tried to keep things simple, Like why is she doing all these things? And I don't think she knows how to make anything simple. Yeah, that's true. I think she was just her brain was a little off or something, but it just was. It was a lot off. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot off. But making up all these new people and she. And she has the same patterns too, though she keeps I mean, she should be a little scared about you know, she's running from the Lost Dell, but she keeps going back to the same places and the same people in the same jobs, where she probably should have you know, gone out west.

55:16 Yeah, yeah, exactly. She should have gone to her vacation home in California and laid low for a while. Yeah. It's interesting too that a lot of her fantasies, you know, or a lot of her made up identities, they were all wealthy, like they always they always. Had a lot once they're you know, their alter ego to be poor and yeah, you know, but a criminal. At the same time, though, people are only going to believe you for so long if you aren't driving a nice car, you don't have a nice house and stuff like that. You know, just always like, yeah, I've got this inheritance, but I don't have it with me. I'm going to go get. It, you know. That's what can people do. Yeah. Yeah, if you have not already ordered your Love Mary Kill merchandise, I haven't. You have until December fifth? Okay, do you want to tell people where to go?

56:08 I don't remember, but I know you remember. It's a little bit of a long complicated You are fire dot com, slash store, Slash Love Dash Mary dash Kill dash store. You expect me to remember that. There will be a link at our show notes. Yes. If you have any questions, feel free to direct message me on Facebook. Or Instagram or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com and we will be happy to answer your questions. So we're recording this on Wednesday, November thirteenth, so it'll be a couple of weeks before it comes out. And I apologize if this is old news, but people still might be reeling from People's Sexiest Man Alive was announced today. Did you hear well? You were robbed again? Probably because I never post any pictures of us, but he's very handsome. I have, but it was John Kristin's How do you feel about that?

57:02 I don't find him especially sexy, but that might just be me. I don't know. Yeah, a good looking guy, I guess, yeah. I mean I think he's had a nice glow up. Here's the controversy and again this I don't know if this is true or not, but his career has been flailing a little bit, really, and he might have paid to be the sexiest man aalized scandal. Certain men have been offered the position and have declined it. Keanu Reeves and oh gosh, I wish I could remember who else? Glenn Powell, and I think there's there's been a few other men that have been like, no, thank you, I have no interest in Yeah. I was gonna say John Krasinski, I haven't heard anything about him in the last year. I know he had he had a couple of movies that were pretty big, like a couple of years ago.

57:47 But yeah, I think a lot of people are saying that, a lot of people. I mean, yeah, no, I don't know. I mean, it's a scheme by him to get back in the public eye again. I don't know. I mean, it was just it's all it's all gossip. It's all here saying I really don't know. I've not vested in it. I'm just just interesting. I'm sharing the news exactly. I hope there's not a big scandal brewing for John Krasinski. I am going to Chicago tomorrow for Worth, my hometown, for a couple of days, and I don't know what it's going to be yet, but probably your snack for part three is going to come from Chicago. Oh interesting. I'm not going to get Garretts because we've done Garretts before. I don't think you can do Garretts too much. I'm just gonna put that out there. I had a Garrett's popcorn in a mall not far from us. But it shuddered, and I was like, because I only would get it like once a year around Christmas time. And really it's like a fraction of the price to get it at the store than it is. It's really kind of expensive to have it shipped, but to buy it fresh at the store is pretty, you know, relatively inexpensive.

58:51 Yeah, well, I was going to ask you if you had any requests for one Chicago. I actually we together haven't gone to Chicago for quite a while on a trip. I don't know whatever, Just surprise me. I guess that's exciting. But Garretts would be acceptable to you. It wouldn't be like we've had too much Garretts. We don't want that again. Sure I do. Sure, Well, it's a really brief trip, though. Do you even have time? You don't bring me something you're are you taking the Amtrak? Yeah? Yeah, don't bring me something from the Amtrak. They have a really good snack car. You would be surprised. It's been a while since I've taken the Amtrak. But it was horrible back, but you've had better. I'm kind of joking. The snack car is not the best, like you order like a burger, and I think they take it out of a paper bag and stick it into a microwave or plastic bag. But I love the Amtrak.

59:41 I actually really enjoy taking the train from here to Chicago because it's a nice quiet time. You can just get some work done and. You never know how long it's going to take, though it could always take longer. Yeah, I've had good luck, but you never know. Yeah. Thank you all so much for your support. The only reason there is a podcast because you continue to support us. If you'd like to hear part three of this story today, consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary Kill five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1:00:22 Until next time. Well next time, don't kill husband. And don't kill your wife. Don't kill husband, don't husband, not kill just. Don't kill anybody.

1:01:16 It's interesting that Carol defended her mother so vociferously, vociferously. What should I say other than that I don't want to not say it because I'm smart to say no smart words. You do. You're very smart.