Nov. 18, 2024

Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 1 of 3

Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 1 of 3
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Marie and Frank Hilley seemed to be living the American dream in their hometown of Anniston, Alabama. They met while still in school and had two kids. Frank was moving up at the foundry where he worked, and Marie brought in extra income as an executive secretary. But, in the mid-seventies, trouble started finding the Hilley family. Unexplained illnesses, arson, nuisance calls, money problems, extortion, and more. It would take years for the mystery to unravel.

Today's snack: RC Cola and Moon Pies

Listen to all three parts today at patreon.com/lovemarrykill

Buy Love Marry Kill merch at: bonfire.com/store/love-marry-kill-store

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage, some.

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Days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hi, Tina here, Rich. How are you.

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I'm great? How are you doing good? I went for

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a walk this morning at the Metro Park. Yeah, and

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I almost have my ten thousand steps already, so I

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am feeling perky and good.

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Well, that's good to hear.

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Yeah, it's still unusually warm here in Michigan.

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Yeah, it is.

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We've had like one or two days where like at

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night it's gone below freezing, but hardly any at all.

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Right, Yeah, very unusual. I'm glad you are feeling energetic

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because today's case is a doozy.

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It must be.

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It's a real humdinger.

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You've been You've been really tight lipped about it. I

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know they've been working really hard though.

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It is one of the craziest cases I've ever researched.

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It's probably going to be a three parter just the

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morning and it. But it's a good one, all right,

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I'll buckle up. Yeah, But before we get to that,

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do you want to talk about our merch.

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Sure, okay, no one worry. You don't have to remember this.

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We'll put it in our show notes. But if you

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go to bonfire dot com, slash store, Slash Love Dash,

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Marry Dash, Killed Dash store, but that's where you can

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find our merch. But I'll put a link in social

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media and on our show notes. And we've got some

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t shirts and sweatshirts and some other cute things, not

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with our logo, but with something someone designed for us,

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and we think it's pretty cute. The store will be

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open until December fifth to hopefully guarantee shipping by Christmas,

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and they will ship internationally, but it might not get

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there in time for Christmas.

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Right, and fifty percent of the proceeds of all of

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our merch sales are going to go to Saint Jude Children's.

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Hospital, so check that out if you're so inclined. Hey, guys,

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if you're listening to this. On Monday, November eighteenth, we

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were hoping that the merch store would be open, but

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we have had some difficulties with that. Hopefully it will

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be up by Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest. I

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will post on social media when it is open. Thank

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you so much for your support and patience.

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Well, today's case starts out in the great state of Alabama,

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and you know how I like to find a snack

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that goes along with the patient if I can, so

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I have done that. Any ideas what it might be.

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Well, I saw something in the garage and the recycling

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bin that I was shocked to see. I don't know

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if that is because it's you think it's going to

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be three parts. I think you have three snacks, So

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I am not sure if that goes along with part

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one or not. Right, Well, today, well, I don't want

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to steal your thunder.

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It does go with part one that way, what you

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saw was an RC cola. That's only part of the

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snack will be.

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It will not be.

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I have a taste of it. But the rest of

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the snack is moonpie. Okay, so technically moon pies are

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made in Chattanooga.

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Why is that big box of moons?

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It's all fine, but technically they're made in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

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But that is just a hop, skip and a jump

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from Alabama. And moonpies are very much loved in Alabama.

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In fact, every year, on New Year's Eve, mobile Alabama

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hosts a moonpie themed celebration called Moonpie over Mobile. The

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event features a one hundred and fifty pounds edible moonpie

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that you can eat a slice of, and there's a

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giant electric moonpie that drops at the stroke of midnight.

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Well that's amazing.

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Yeah, that's pretty cool, isn't it.

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That's amazing. You know, I love stuff like that.

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Yeah, So I have a little a few more facts

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about moonpies. So they were I.

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Have so many questions about moonpies.

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I'm sure you do. They were invented one hundred and

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seven years ago, nineteen seventeen. I think, as most people

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probably know, moonpies consist of two gram crackers. They're shaped

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into round cookies with marshmallow filling in the center. They're

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dipped in a flavored coating, with chocolate being the original.

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Moonpies reached the peak of their popularity during the nineteen fifties,

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when many workers would buy them as an inexpensive snack

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to tide them over until their work shift was over.

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At this time, the typical cost of a moonpie was

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five cents, and a soda to drink was also five cents.

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Ourc cola became the drink of choice to accompany the moonpie,

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and people began referring to this combination as the working

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man's lunch, really really and there's actually a song about

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it too, So you can enjoy your moonpie and RC cola.

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While listening to a little bit of the song RC

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Cola and a Moonpie by NRBQ, Wow, no salon, I

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want my life. And you know it's assy color's all right?

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Don't you know it's all right?

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It's all night. Don't you know it's all right? It's

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all that assy color. How did you enjoy your working

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man's lunch?

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I enjoyed this song. That was a really good, really

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good jingle. I didn't love the moon pie, and I

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didn't love the RC so wow. But this is quite

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a big box of moon pies. The one thing I

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know about moon pies I don't know if i'd ever

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had one before, is if you have a lot of allergies,

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they're like one of those foods that it's so processed.

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There's no like milk or nuts or anything like that

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in it. So one of our daughter's friends, she couldn't

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have a lot of treats, but she can have a

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moon pie.

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So that's good to know.

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But what did you think?

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I like the Moonpie. Actually, I don't mind the arc Cole.

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I'm more of a diet you know, soda drinker, as

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you know. But yeah, it's pretty good.

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Well, what would you rate them?

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I would give the moon Pies an eight out of

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ten and the RC cola six out of ten.

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Wow. I would give the moon Pie a two out

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of ten and the RC one because I just don't

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drink sugar soda, so it just tastes funny to me.

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I'm sure it did disappoint you.

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I think it's one of those things that growing up,

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I think I think my parents did drink arcy. But

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well done, good job. You're very thorough and I applied seriously.

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I mean, you're it's a three part episode and you

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went out of your way to find a song and

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a snack.

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I hope you like the snack for part two. Better

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Part two is going to be a homemade snack, so

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just you got that to look forward to.

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Well again, I mean, thank you for your effort.

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Marie and Frank Hilly seemed to be living the American

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dream in their hometown of Aniston, Alabama. They met while

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still in school and married while Frank was on leave

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from his service in the Navy at the beginning of

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the Korean War. They had a son, Mike, followed by

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a daughter, Carol. After his service was complete, Frank took

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a job at the foundry and was working his way

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up while Marie was working as a secretary. But in

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the fall of nineteen seventy four, Frank got sick. He

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started suffering from nausea, fever, headaches, and diarrhea. The doctors

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were unsure of the cause, but eventually diagnosed him with

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infectious hepatitis. He died in May nineteen seventy five. Now

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a widow, Marie Hilly carried on as best she could,

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but trouble kept finding the family nuisance, phone calls, arson,

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money troubles, extortion, teenage, rebel, you name it. Marie and

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her family seemed to experience more than their fair share

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of problems. At age nineteen, Carol started experiencing symptoms similar

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to those that had killed her father. Desperately seeking help

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for her daughter, Marie took Carroll from one doctor to another,

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but they were baffled. No one seemed able to help her. Gradually, however,

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family members started putting the puzzle pieces together and came

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to suspect something unthinkable, But could they solve the mystery

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in time to save poor Carol. Audrey Marie Fraser was

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born in June nineteen thirty three to Lucille and Hughey Fraser.

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Hughey and Lucille had a child two years earlier that

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was still born. They were determined to have another child,

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and so they were ecstatic when Audrey, or Marie as

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they called her, was born healthy. She was raised an

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only child. Lucille stayed home to raise Marie while Hughey

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worked at the local mill in nearby Blue Mountain Thread Company,

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But Hughie had a lot of health troubles and would

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regularly go visit as twin brother Louis in Texas and

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then later Utah Huey and Louis or twin brothers. To

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help support the family, Lucille went to work at the

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mill as well. With both her parents either working or away,

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Marie was largely raised by her grandma. Being an only

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child and being one of only a couple girls in

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her extended family. It's said that Marie got away with

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a lot. Although the family didn't have much money. She

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was spoiled and usually got what she wanted. Growing up,

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Marie was close to her cousin Robbie, one of the

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only other girls in the extended family. But in contrast

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with Robbie, who was a tomboy, Marie was considered very

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dainty and ladylike. At age fourteen, she was voted the

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prettiest girl at Quintard Junior High School. That same year

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she met Frank Hilly. What year is this, Well, I

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think when she was fourteen, it would have been in

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nineteen forty seven.

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Okay, in twenty twenty four. I don't think girls are

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vote what is the prettiest girl in school?

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At age fourteen, especially, Frank was four years older than Marie.

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He asked Marie out, and they went to see a

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movie on a double date with a friend of Frank's.

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Soon they were going steady. Frank later said that he

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knew right away that he was going to marry Marie.

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Frank had a younger sister, Frieda, who became close to

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Marie as well. Frida was three years younger than Frank

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and a year older than Marie. As soon as he

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finished high school, Frank enlisted in the Navy. The Korean

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War was just beginning, and Frank was shipped off to Guam,

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a strategic military base during that conflict. As Marie was

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finishing up her junior year of high school, Frank came

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home on leave and the two got married in May

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nineteen fifty. Marie had trained to be a secretary after

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high school. With Frank still in the military, Marie got

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her first job as the secretary to an attorney. She

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used her first paycheck to make a down payment on

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a sewing machine for her mother and the first new

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suit her father had ever owned. In early nineteen fifty two,

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Frank was reassigned to the Boston Navy Yard, and Marie

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moved to Boston to be with him. Soon, the couple

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learned that Marie was pregnant. When Frank finished his tour

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of duty with the Navy, they moved back to Anniston, Alabama,

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to be near family and to raise their new son, Mike,

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who was born in nineteen fifty three. Frank went to

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work at the foundry that made cast iron pipes, while

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Marie got a secretarial job at the Alabama Gas Company.

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Both of them were very good at what they did.

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Frank got promoted to head of the shipping department and

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started taking evening classes at Jacksonville State University in hopes

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of furthering his career. Marie was seen by her employer

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as fast, efficient and reliable. She was an excellent typist

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and good at shorthand as well. They had a small

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circle of friends that they socialized and played pinuckle with

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after work. Frank would often meet some friends at the

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Elks Club for a couple of beers before heading home

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for dinner. Seven years after Mike was born, Marie gave

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birth to a daughter, Carol. People saw the Hillies as

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the all American family when people would see them attending

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Mike's Little League baseball games. They seemed like a happy,

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well adjusted family, but there was trouble brewing under the surface.

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There's always trouble brewing underneath the surface. While Marie and

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Frank's combined income was modest, Marie had expensive tastes. Say Marie.

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She always had to be impeccably dressed in clothing from

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the nicest department stores in town, and she always wanted

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to drive the nicest cars. The couple bought a small

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house after they were married, but Marie wanted something better.

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While they saved to buy a bigger house. Marie hired

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an interior decorator and spent a lot of money on

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00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.399
new furnishings for her current home. Frank didn't care much

237
00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.240
about material things, but he wanted to keep Marie happy,

238
00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:54.879
so whatever she wanted she got. From her days as

239
00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:58.240
an only child, Marie was accustomed to getting her way,

240
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.320
but friends started work that the couple was over their heads.

241
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.519
This might be a dumb question, but how much credit

242
00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.960
were people given back then?

243
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.120
I don't know the answer to that, but I do

244
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:12.559
know it wasn't in the form of credit cards, right.

245
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:14.600
It was like you would go to the bank and say, hey,

246
00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:16.159
could I get a line of credit? Or at the

247
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.200
department store you would ask for a line of credit there.

248
00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.679
So it's a bit different. But I don't know how

249
00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:25.039
much credit people usually had at that point.

250
00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:27.559
Okay, so it was less likely for people to be

251
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.600
in credit card debt, but you could still be in debt, yeah,

252
00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.600
for sure. Another source of trouble was Frank's drinking. While

253
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.039
Frank initially would just have a couple of beers with

254
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.840
the guys at the Elks Club after work, his drinking

255
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.559
grew heavier as time went on. By the nineteen sixties,

256
00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.200
he had been promoted again to foreman at the foundry,

257
00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.320
with a lot of men working under him. He became

258
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.000
a fixture at the US Club, drinking more and staying

259
00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.120
longer than the guys who worked for him. Friday nights

260
00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.200
at the Elks Club were family night. One time, when

261
00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.639
Frank was there with Marie and Mike, he got very

262
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.720
drunk and it developed into a fight. When they left

263
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.840
the club and Marie went to get the car while Frank

264
00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.879
and Mike waited near the entrance, Frank got nauseous and

265
00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.440
started wretching in the bushes. Then, as Marie was pulling up,

266
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.919
he lay down in the drive and shouted, come on,

267
00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.039
run over me. Put me out of my misery. Mike

268
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.320
witnessed this event and later said that he felt like

269
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.679
his mom was actually starting to accelerate towards Frank when

270
00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.480
someone else from the club dragged him up to the sidewalk. Marie,

271
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.320
still close to Frank's sister Freda, complained to her about

272
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.960
Frank's drinking and about how much time he was spending

273
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:36.519
at the Elks Club, watching football and baseball and playing

274
00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.759
poker with his friends. Another source of tension in the

275
00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.519
household came about as Carol got into her teenagers. Mike

276
00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.000
had always been the golden child and seemingly could do

277
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.759
no wrong in Marie's eyes, but she and Carol clashed regularly,

278
00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.320
and although they fought, Marie didn't know how to discipline

279
00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.320
her kids. She hadn't been disciplined growing up as a child,

280
00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.360
and likewise she didn't know how to say no to

281
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:03.639
her children. Carol was rebellious, got into trouble regularly, and

282
00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.120
wasn't afraid of defying her mom. Not only that, but

283
00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.679
Carol did not dress or act in a traditionally feminine way,

284
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.879
which must have wrinkled Marie with her penchant for a

285
00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:17.799
ladylike behavior and attire. At some point, Marie must have

286
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:21.200
started to suspect that Carroll was a lesbian, which also

287
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.240
did not sit well with her. Marie would often ask

288
00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.159
her daughter why she didn't seem interested in going out

289
00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:31.759
with boys, instead choosing to hang out with girlfriends. At

290
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:34.360
the same time, as her relationship with her mom struggled,

291
00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:37.879
Carol grew closer to her dad. Frank would take her

292
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.080
golfing or fishing with him. This, in turn, made Marie

293
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.639
feel like Carol and Frank were teaming up against her.

294
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.320
Marie started complaining to Frank's sister Freda that no one

295
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.440
loved her. Frank spent all his time with the Elks Club,

296
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.200
drinking with his friends, Mike was off to college and

297
00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.879
getting ready to strike out on his own, and Carol

298
00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.919
didn't care about her at all. Marie continued her lab

299
00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.639
spending on clothes and household furnishings, and the family's debts

300
00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.919
started mounting. By nineteen seventy three, Marie owed money to

301
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:12.679
a dozen department stores, banks, and finance companies. Her balance

302
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.120
at Wakefields, the most expensive women's clothing store in the area,

303
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.440
kept growing. Marie rented a po box to receive bills

304
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.440
so that Frank wouldn't see them. Word started spreading around

305
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.559
town that the Hillies were borrowing money but not paying

306
00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:28.039
it back.

307
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:31.000
This case stressing you out? Yet, I know cases about

308
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.919
like that involved finances and people getting in debt over

309
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:36.519
their heads can be very stressful.

310
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:40.360
It does stress me out a little bit.

311
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:41.759
Yeah.

312
00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.000
When she was about thirteen years old, Carol met a

313
00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.759
ten year old girl named Sonya Gibson at church. Marie

314
00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.000
must have thought that Sonya would be a good influence

315
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.559
on Carol. She was pretty finishing second place in the

316
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.559
school beauty contest and active in the Brownies. Marie would

317
00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.480
call Sonya's mom and invite Sonya over Voluntar Hearing to

318
00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:02.559
pick her up and drive her over and back.

319
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.960
It's a little odd to think about today, of like

320
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.359
girls that are ten or fourteen years old, like winning

321
00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.279
beauty contests and things. It's very very going.

322
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:13.440
To me, but that's just me.

323
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:14.000
Yeah.

324
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.640
Well, it's also in the South too, and I think

325
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.920
beauty in the South and you know, being like demure.

326
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:22.680
That was a good point. Sonya hung out at the

327
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.400
Hilly's house several times over the Christmas holiday in nineteen

328
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:29.799
seventy three. In early February nineteen seventy four, Sonya got

329
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.160
sick with mild flu like symptoms. It didn't seem like

330
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.400
anything serious, but two days later she took a turn

331
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.599
for the worse. Suddenly she developed a high fever, stomach pain,

332
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.480
uncontrolled vomiting. Anne was unable to walk. Her mom rushed

333
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.319
her to the emergency room, where they decided to airlift

334
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.079
her to the Children's Hospital in Birmingham, but sadly, she

335
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.400
died during the trip. An autopsy was performed, determining the

336
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.440
cause of death to be a severe viral illness, which

337
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.839
led to an inflammation of Sonya's heartlining. Her mother never

338
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.480
understood or accepted the conclusion. It just didn't make sense.

339
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.359
Sonia had been a healthy young girl, hardly ever sick

340
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:13.880
her whole life. That's very sad.

341
00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:17.359
I know, it's really sad, isn't it. Over the years,

342
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.640
Marie held several secretarial jobs. There seemed to be a

343
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.480
pattern where Marie got on well with her male bosses,

344
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.799
but often had trouble getting along with her female colleagues.

345
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.559
Sometimes the business executives that Marie worked for bought her

346
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:34.799
lavish gifts. One local executive bought a pony for Carol.

347
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:39.200
That's a lavish quite a bonus, yeah. Another bought Marie

348
00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:43.079
a pair of expensive diamond earrings. Frank acted like he

349
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.799
wasn't bothered by these gifts, but inside he was in turmoil.

350
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.599
Over time, he started tentatively confiding his concerns with others.

351
00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:54.880
By nineteen seventy four, Mike had met a girl at

352
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.079
college named Terry Henderson, and the two had gotten married.

353
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.480
Frank had continued moving up at the foundry and was

354
00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:06.279
now assistant superintendent. Salespeople would give him tickets to sporting events,

355
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:11.480
including his beloved Auburn University football team. On Thanksgiving nineteen

356
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.440
seventy four, Mike was bringing Terry over along with his

357
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.039
in laws, so Frank invited Mike's father in law, Happy

358
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.480
Henderson to the Great Name to attend the Auburn versus

359
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.519
University of Alabama football game. As they drove to the game,

360
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.400
Happy could tell that something was troubling Frank. Frank started

361
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:32.440
talking about Marie and her mother not getting along, always

362
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.759
fuscin at each other. As he put it, all the

363
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.519
arguing between Marie and her mother made Frank feel like

364
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.599
he was in the middle trying to keep the peace.

365
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.279
Then Frank started turning the conversation in a different direction, saying,

366
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.599
there's something else I want to tell you, but I

367
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.960
don't want it to get around. The conversation was making

368
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000
Happy uncomfortable. After all, he barely knew Frank, so he

369
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.200
said a minister is always a good person to talk to.

370
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:01.039
That put an end to the conversation, but Frank also

371
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.720
opened up to his son. One day in the spring

372
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.200
of nineteen seventy five, Frank and Mike were out on

373
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.119
the golf course when Frank said, you know, Mike, things

374
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.519
aren't so great at home these days. Your mother and

375
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.079
I aren't really getting along that well. We're going through

376
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:16.799
a rough time with you and Caroll growing up. Things

377
00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:22.319
are changing again, though Frank seemed uncomfortable sharing any more details.

378
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.400
A few weeks later, Mike and Frank went golfing again.

379
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.079
This time Frank shared more. He said, I don't know

380
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:31.240
what I'm going to do. Something's happened. I just don't

381
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.599
know what I'm going to do about it. He seemed

382
00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.440
reluctant to say more, but Mike prodded him. Finally, Frank said,

383
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:39.680
you know, me and your mother have not been getting

384
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.200
along lately. I got sick one day at work and

385
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.279
came home early. Your mother was in bed with Walter Clinton.

386
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:47.039
No, she was not.

387
00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.559
She was. Walter Clinton was the founder of a business,

388
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:54.400
Clinton Controls, and he had hired Marie as his executive secretary.

389
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.519
Frank said he walked in, saw them in bed together,

390
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.519
then turned and walked out. It's not clear whether or

391
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.559
not Marie or Walter saw Frank.

392
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:03.200
Oh boy.

393
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.920
It was around that same time that Frank started getting sick.

394
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.000
He told a friend that He had been running a

395
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:12.160
fever that kept coming back, along with some really bad headaches.

396
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:14.559
He had been to the doctor, but they couldn't figure

397
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.440
out what was causing it. Frank told his friend it

398
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:21.119
was probably just hay fever. One day in May nineteen

399
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.359
seventy five, Frank came home from work early, vomiting and

400
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:28.359
suffering from diarrhea. His coworkers were speculating that maybe the

401
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.359
chemicals they used at the foundry were causing his illness,

402
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:33.720
but no one else at work seemed to be suffering

403
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.279
from similar issues. Over the next couple of weeks, Frank

404
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.440
kept waking in the night with fever and chills. His

405
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.599
doctor said it was probably a stomach virus and recommended

406
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.759
chaopectate and maylox. Are those medications still around? You don't

407
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:50.400
hear much about chaopectate and maylox these days?

408
00:21:50.599 --> 00:21:54.119
Yeah, I don't know what. My grandpa always had maylox

409
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.119
with him, did he. Yeah.

410
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.279
Nothing seemed to help Frank. At three point thirty am

411
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.119
one morning, rewoke to find Frank disoriented wandering around the

412
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.000
yard in his underwear. She took him to the hospital.

413
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.519
This time, doctors diagnosed him with infectious hepatitis, a condition

414
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.960
that generally clears up on its own in a month

415
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:17.440
or two. While infectious hepatitis can be fatal, deaths caused

416
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.279
by the disease were rare even back in those days. Sadly,

417
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.880
Frank never made it out of the hospital. After alternating

418
00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:29.319
between periods of clarity and hallucinations, Frank died on Sunday,

419
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:33.240
May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five. The official finding was

420
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.359
that Frank Hilly had died from infectious hepatitis. County health

421
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.759
officials took water samples from the Hilly home and from

422
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.759
the Union Foundry, where Frank had worked, but didn't find

423
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:45.200
anything out of the ordinary.

424
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.519
I mean, I'm no doctor, but you have your suspicions.

425
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.359
I have my suspicions. I'm going to keep him to myself.

426
00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:54.839
Though Frank's funeral was held two days after he died,

427
00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:57.400
and two days after that, Marie filed a claim on

428
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.960
Frank's life insurance more than thirty thousand dollars or one

429
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:04.839
hundred and seventy five thousand dollars today. She also received

430
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.680
thousands of dollars from Veterans Insurance along with Social Security

431
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.359
survivors benefits. The mortgage on their house was paid off

432
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:15.240
by Frank's life insurance policy, as was the debt in

433
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:16.359
their credit accounts.

434
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.400
Oh, in a lot of the cases that we cover,

435
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:22.720
we talk about that. Oh, the spouse called the insurance

436
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.079
company within twenty four or forty eight or whatever hours. Right,

437
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.440
what do you think the acceptable amount of time is

438
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.680
to wait? I think you do have to call pretty quickly.

439
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.519
Yeah. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with calling

440
00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.519
and filing acclaim on life insurance within a couple of days.

441
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:38.920
Because there's funeral.

442
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.759
Expenses, And that's what I was going to say. Funerals

443
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:41.640
are very expensive.

444
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.319
So I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that.

445
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.160
But it sometimes sets out off an alarm, Yes it could.

446
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.880
Over the next few months, Marie went on a spending.

447
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:53.559
Spree that she did.

448
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.640
She paid cash for a new Oldsmobile, spent a bunch

449
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.359
of money on new clothes and jewelry from the nicest

450
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.000
department store in town, and bought several pieces of furniture

451
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.240
and other household items. She bought a stereo and a

452
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.960
new Honda for Carol, and a new washing machine for

453
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.000
Mike and Terry. She took Terry on a shopping trip

454
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.480
to buy her new nicer clothing, telling her, Honey, you

455
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.079
shouldn't be buying your clothes at Kmart. It doesn't look

456
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.079
right for Mike's wife to be shopping there. Mike was

457
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.920
a pastor at this time, so apparently it's not acceptable

458
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.680
for a pastor's wife to be seen in Kmart clothing.

459
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.200
Oh, I think it's perfectly acceptable.

460
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.000
I think too. I grew up in Kmart clothing, so.

461
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:35.720
Yeah, that I'm the same. Really. A week after Frank's death,

462
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:38.559
Marie's mom, Lucial, found a lump in her breast and

463
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.400
was diagnosed with cancer. She died a year and a

464
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:46.119
half later, in January nineteen seventy seven. Carol was fifteen

465
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:48.319
at the time of her father's death. She and Frank

466
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.559
had been growing closer over the last few years of

467
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:55.000
his life, which coincided with increasing strife between her and

468
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.680
her mom. Frank's death just seemed to make things worse

469
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.759
between Marie and Carol. Carol saw her mom as controlling,

470
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.400
wanting to know everything about her social life. Marie gave

471
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:10.000
Carroll material things, but was enabled to provide emotional support

472
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:15.160
or parental guidance. Carol felt angry and resentful, which Marie

473
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:18.680
saw as a lack of gratitude. Marie would complain to

474
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.920
her friends and Frank's sister Freda that no one loved her.

475
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.240
She said Carol was making her life miserable and everyone

476
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.000
was against her. Freda put it down to Marie going

477
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:31.160
through a difficult time, having just lost her husband and

478
00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:33.839
now helping to care for her mother during her battle

479
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:36.799
with cancer. Mike and his wife, Terry, had been living

480
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:39.640
three hours away, but soon after his dad died, Mike

481
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.680
was offered a job as an assistant pastor at a

482
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.000
church back in Anniston. Knowing that his mom was going

483
00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:48.319
through a hard time and burdened with taking care of

484
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.920
his grandma, he accepted the job so he could be

485
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:54.519
closer to home. Marie invited Mike and Terry to move

486
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.079
into the house along with Lucille and Carroll. She had

487
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.720
plenty of room, but within two months, Mike and Terry

488
00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:03.359
started to look for an apartment. There was too much

489
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.799
conflict and tension in the house and they were anxious

490
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.559
to get out. Marie was not happy that they were

491
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.200
moving out and tried to make Mike feel guilty about

492
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.119
leaving his grandma behind. For her to care for on

493
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.519
her own. Mike assured her they wouldn't be far away

494
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.880
and could still help out. The night before they were

495
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.720
set to move out, a fire broke out in Marie's house.

496
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.680
No one was home at the time. Neighbors noticed the

497
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.839
smoke and called the fire department, who arrived just as

498
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.319
Marie was pulling into the driveway with Lucille, saying they

499
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.440
had gone for a drive. The home sustained significant smoke damage,

500
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.440
which took a month to repair. During this time, Marie, Carol,

501
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.640
and Lucille all moved into Mike and Terry's apartment with them.

502
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:47.480
The cause of the fire was never determined.

503
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.359
Pretty pretty convenient A Mike, please don't move out, Please

504
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.359
don't move out. And then the day he's moving out, oh,

505
00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:54.160
ihead a fire. We have to move in with you.

506
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:58.440
What are you trying to accuse this poor widow of Mike?

507
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:03.440
Dare you? But let's see, right about the time Marie, Lucille,

508
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:05.920
and Carroll were preparing to move back into the house,

509
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:09.160
another fire broke out. This time it was in the

510
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.720
apartment next to Mike and Terry's. Smoke drifted through the

511
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:16.599
events of the building, making their apartment unlivable, so Mike

512
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:20.160
and Terry moved back into Marie's house. Soon they moved

513
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.440
to another apartment, this time without incident. These fires were

514
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.839
just the beginning of a number of incidents that seemed

515
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.000
to follow Marie. A few months after Mike and Terry

516
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.119
moved out, Marie called the Anniston police, saying that she

517
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.880
smelled gas fumes in the house. They came out, but

518
00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.519
they didn't find any signs of a leak. A month

519
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.720
after that, Marie called the police again at four am.

520
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:46.240
This time a fire had broken out in the hall closet.

521
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.240
Marie seemed to think someone had broken in and started

522
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:51.839
the fire, but the police found no signs of a

523
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:55.960
break in. The damage this time was minor. Someone would

524
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.839
break in and start a fire in your linen.

525
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:59.319
Closet, yeah, it seems a little unlikely.

526
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:02.920
After that, Marie's neighbor Doris, came home from an out

527
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.640
of town trip to find that a fire had been

528
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:09.160
started in her Haull closet. Luckily, it had burned itself

529
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.400
out and the damage was minimal. Again, there was no

530
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.880
sign of forest entry. Before going out of town, Doris

531
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:18.240
had given Marie a key to her house, to keep

532
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.039
an eye on things. Marie said she hadn't gone into

533
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.920
Doris's home while she was away and didn't see anything suspicious.

534
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.880
In the days before reen cameras, yeah, exactly. The Anniston police,

535
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.000
especially a lieutenant named Gary Carroll, started to take notice

536
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.440
of Marie Hilly. She had called them four times over

537
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:40.799
a period of three months. Another time, she reported that

538
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:44.880
her house had been burglarized with jewelry, guns and a

539
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:46.039
hair dryer stolen.

540
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:47.319
Yep, they got that hair dryer.

541
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.119
That's a weird One. One day, she came home to

542
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.519
a note tacked to her back door that said, quote,

543
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.160
you are going to be sorry if you don't move.

544
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:01.200
Lieutenant Carroll decided to investigate this incident himself because he

545
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.279
wanted to meet this woman, Marie Hilly, who was starting

546
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.680
to become well known to the Anniston police. He went

547
00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:10.920
to her house, examined the note, and interviewed Marie. He

548
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.039
came away with a feeling that she was genuinely scared

549
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.440
that someone was harassing her, but there wasn't much else

550
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.119
to go on, so he filed the note away in

551
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:24.440
the evidence locker. Another officer, Billy Atherton, became a regular

552
00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.960
visitor to Marie's house to respond to various incidents. She

553
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.559
would invite him in for a coffee, and one day

554
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.200
she put her hand on his legs, saying quote, I'm

555
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:38.039
so alone. I need a man to help me. Billy

556
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.920
started a casual fleeing with Marie. He would stop by

557
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.119
versas during his off duty hours, while at the same

558
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.319
time showing up to take reports when Marie would call

559
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:48.319
with another incident.

560
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:50.160
A little bit of a conflict of interest there.

561
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.279
Maybe Marie sure seemed to have an awful lot of incidents.

562
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:53.880
He sure did.

563
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.039
We'll be back after a break.

564
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:05.880
During the months that Mike and Terry lived with Marie,

565
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.440
Terry was pregnant. She got very sick during her fourth month,

566
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:13.799
developing extreme nausea and vomiting along with stomach and leg pain.

567
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:16.400
Marie took her to the hospital where they put her

568
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.920
on an IV to rehydrate her. The doctors were worried

569
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:23.799
that perhaps she had contracted infectious hepatitis from Frank before

570
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:26.680
he died. The doctor wanted to give Terry a gamma

571
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:31.319
globulin shot. Gamma globulins, also known as immunoglobulins, are a

572
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.160
type of blood protein that helped the immune system fight

573
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.200
off foreign substances and diseases, but the doctor wanted to

574
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.559
consult with Terry's obstetrician first. In nineteen seventy five, there

575
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.599
was not a consensus as to whether gamma globulins were

576
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.920
safe for pregnant women. Most doctors now believe that they

577
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.759
are safe and that the benefits outweigh any risks. Trying

578
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:57.079
to be helpful, Marie volunteered to call Terry's obstetrician. After

579
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.319
making the call, she told Terry and her doctor that

580
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.200
the obstetricate had given his okay. A month or so later,

581
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:06.880
Terry was seeing her obstetrician and mentioned the gamma globulin shot.

582
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.119
Her doctor was confused. He said, I told your mother

583
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:13.079
in law in no uncertain terms that she shouldn't have

584
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:16.960
that shot. Terry was confused, but she assumed that there

585
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:18.559
had been some miscommunication.

586
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.559
Wow. I mean, first of all, you don't if you're

587
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:25.759
a doctor, you call the doctor yourself. You don't have

588
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:26.880
your mother in law do it.

589
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.880
But that's yeah, that would never happen today with like

590
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.000
you know, hippo rules and privacy and all that. But

591
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:35.039
but yeah, it is. It is horrible. I mean, as

592
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:37.759
I said, it's not a big risk to pregnant women.

593
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:39.640
We know that today, but at the time we didn't

594
00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:43.960
know that. Terry did start feeling better and was released

595
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:46.880
from the hospital and returned to Marie's.

596
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.759
House Marie's House, abhorrors.

597
00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.039
Yeah, no kidding. A few days later, she started getting

598
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:55.839
sick again. This time she began hemorrhaging, and sadly, she

599
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:56.720
lost the baby.

600
00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:57.359
Oh no.

601
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:00.880
After the miscarriage, Marie helped take care of Terry, bringing

602
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:04.480
her soup and other food. Terry got violently ill again

603
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.680
several weeks after the miscarriage. Mike took her to the

604
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.680
hospital again, where she stayed recovering for more than a week.

605
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.319
All told, Terry went to the hospital four times during

606
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.720
the few months that she and Mike lived with Marie.

607
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.440
In the summer of nineteen seventy seven, a few months

608
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.400
after Marie's mom, Lucille passed away, now seventeen year old

609
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.319
Carol was home alone and snooping in her mother's bedroom,

610
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.319
as kids will do. She opened a drawer and found

611
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:33.160
a letter addressed to her mom. The letter was from

612
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:36.559
someone that Carol didn't know, a woman who was supposedly

613
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.599
Marie's aunt. The letter said, now that your mother is gone,

614
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.279
there's something you should know. You know how your father,

615
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.599
Huey was a twin. Remember he had a twin brother Louis.

616
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:49.720
I'm hoping the letter says that they were actually triplets

617
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:51.279
and there was a Dewey too.

618
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.759
Not quite. The letter said that Marie also had a twin,

619
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:59.680
a sister named Mandy, who lived in Texas. The letter

620
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:03.160
writer explained that Hughie had been very unhappy being a

621
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:06.319
twin and he didn't want that for his daughter, so

622
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.519
he shipped one of the girls off to a distant

623
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:12.799
relative in Texas. What the letter claimed that even Marie's

624
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.680
mom didn't know she had twins. This is the part

625
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.799
that's really hard to imagine. She had been very sick

626
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.440
and out of it after giving birth and never knew

627
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.039
that she had given birth to twins and that Hughie

628
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.559
had sent one of them off to live in Texas.

629
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.599
Oh that's wild. Are you serious?

630
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.119
I'm serious that Carol found this letter. Now, just because

631
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.160
Carol found this letter doesn't mean it's real. I think,

632
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.720
as you're starting to get the idea, maybe Marie is

633
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:40.559
a little off.

634
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.759
Okay, so wait, she wrote the letter.

635
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:45.480
I think she wrote the letter.

636
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:49.200
Yes, what would her motivation have been? Just empathy?

637
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.000
Well, it's a good question, I think, Marie. As we'll

638
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.039
find out more as we go along. She had a

639
00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:58.400
very rich fantasy life, like she was just making stuff

640
00:33:58.480 --> 00:33:59.440
up all the time.

641
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.279
Way to say it, Yeah, I think so.

642
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.440
So. I don't know. I don't know what the motivation

643
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.920
was for this, but she was like inventing other lives

644
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:11.440
for herself. Let's just say that Carol was shocked when

645
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.199
she read the letter. She felt guilty, and she decided

646
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.639
not to confront her mom about it. She put the

647
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.039
letter back. She did tell a friend about it, but

648
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.519
she didn't mention it again to her mom. While all

649
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:26.000
this was happening, Marie kept reporting incidents of harassment to

650
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.559
the Anniston Police Department. She said she was getting harassing

651
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.400
phone calls, flower pots were upended, a pound of hamburger

652
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:37.039
disappeared from her kitchen counter, and one time she reported

653
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:41.480
that she was being followed while out running errands. Marie's neighbor, Doris,

654
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.039
was also receiving nuisance phone calls. She reported thirty two

655
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:48.119
calls in the span of a month. The police put

656
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:51.639
tracing equipment on both Marie's and Doris's phones, but as

657
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.880
soon as they did, the calls seemed to stop. They

658
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:57.760
removed the tracing equipment and the calls started up again.

659
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:01.199
This seemed to become a pattern over the next several months.

660
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.559
It got to the point where Lieutenant Carroll was surprised

661
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.880
if two days went by without Marie calling them about something.

662
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:08.400
Well.

663
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.119
As time went on after Frank's death, Marie burned through

664
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.880
the insurance money and Frank's veterans Survivor's benefits. She started

665
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.039
getting deep into debt once again. In the spring of

666
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.599
nineteen seventy seven, Mike was offered a job with a

667
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:26.360
new ministry in Pompino Beach, Florida. As he and Terry

668
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:29.159
prepared to move, Marie came to Mike saying that she

669
00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:31.000
had tried to get a loan from the bank, but

670
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:33.760
they had turned her down. She asked Mike to co

671
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.119
sign the loan. According to her, the bank was discriminating

672
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:41.440
against single women, and Mike agreed. Mike and Terry were

673
00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:44.079
relieved to be moving out of the state. It was

674
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:48.679
exhausting being around Marie and the constant drama. After they moved,

675
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.320
Marie sold her house and she and Carol moved to

676
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:55.880
a smaller apartment. Despite the new home, Marie's troubles continued.

677
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:59.719
The nuisance phone calls resumed again. The police put a

678
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:03.960
trace on her line, but again the calls stopped. Carol's

679
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.400
car was reported stolen while she was at the mall.

680
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.480
It was later found burning. Someone had set it on fire.

681
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:12.719
Carol later told Mike that she and Marie had done

682
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:16.760
it for the insurance money. When Carol graduated high school,

683
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.960
Marie called Mike to let him know they were moving

684
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.280
to Florida, which I'm sure Mike was thrilled to hear.

685
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.360
Marie felt like Carol lacked direction and maybe a change

686
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:29.159
of scenery would be good for her. They stayed with

687
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.639
Mike and Terry while Marie looked for work. Mike made

688
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.079
the mistake of giving his visa card to Marie to

689
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:37.840
help her out. He was surprised when he saw six

690
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.840
hundred dollars about three thousand dollars in today's dollars worth

691
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:45.000
of charges on the card. Marie promised she would pay

692
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:48.480
him back when she was able. Terry had been healthy

693
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:51.280
since she and Mike moved to Florida, but strangely, now

694
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:53.960
that Marie was staying with them, she became sick again.

695
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.639
She ended up in the hospital. This time, doctors believed

696
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:00.400
something was wrong with her kidneys, but again and no

697
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:04.880
clear diagnosis was made. Wow, Mike and Terry were both

698
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:08.079
happy when Marie and Carroll decided to move back to Anniston.

699
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:09.199
A few months later.

700
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:14.000
After moving back to Alabama, Frank's mother, Carrie Hilly, offered

701
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:16.599
to have Marie and Carroll come and live with her.

702
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.079
She said they could stay rent free as long as

703
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.320
Marie agreed to take care of the utilities. Carrie would

704
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.960
eventually discover a bunch of unpaid utility bills talked away

705
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.599
in a drawer. More strange incidents occurred while Marie and

706
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.920
Carroll were staying with Carrie. A sleeping bag caught fire

707
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.960
in the dryer, the power cord of a window fan

708
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:39.119
was cut, and Carrie found some burning paper towel in

709
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:43.559
the garbage. One day. Additionally, Carrie got sick. She got

710
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:47.559
nauseous and started vomiting uncontrollably. She went to a doctor,

711
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:51.159
but they could find no explanation for her illness. With

712
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:54.760
her financial troubles mounting, Marie turned to a few different

713
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:57.920
men for help. She did secretarial work for one in

714
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:02.360
the evenings at his home. He paid in cash. Another man,

715
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.880
Kelvin Robertson, was someone Marie had known since they were

716
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.800
thirteen years old. Kelvin had been head over heels in

717
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.360
love with Marie during high school. She ended up with

718
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.239
Frank Hilly, but Kelvin's feelings for Marie never died. Despite

719
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.400
getting married, having three kids, and moving to California, Marie

720
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.639
kept in touch with Kelvin over the years. Over Thanksgiving

721
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.639
nineteen seventy eight, while Kelvin was back in Alabama visiting family,

722
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.920
she told him that she had been diagnosed with lung cancer.

723
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:34.320
She seemed optimistic, but told Kelvin how expensive the treatments were.

724
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.519
A few days later, Calvin sent her a check for

725
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:41.840
three thousand dollars. It's a lot of money, the man, huh.

726
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:45.159
She and Kelvin talked regularly over the phone. Despite the

727
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.519
fact that he was married, he was still in love

728
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:50.920
with Marie and willing to do anything for her. He

729
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.719
was shattered when Marie wrote him a letter telling him

730
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:56.360
that she was getting married. She said that she was

731
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.760
in love with her future husband, a man named John Romans,

732
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.440
but he was good to her and would take care

733
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:05.519
of her, She wrote, I won't be the happiest person

734
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.239
in the world, but neither will I be unhappy. Since

735
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:10.519
I can't have you, I can settle for what I

736
00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:13.320
will have with John, and I don't feel I'm cheating him.

737
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:15.639
He knows that I'm not in love with him, but

738
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:18.719
he does know that I admire and respect him. She

739
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:21.840
went on, we will both belong to someone else, and

740
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:25.320
probably our paths will never cross again. You will always

741
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:27.760
be there in my heart. You will always be near

742
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.480
me no matter where I am. I will always reach

743
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:33.280
across the miles and take your hand, kiss you good night,

744
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:38.239
and say to you I love you, my darling, for always. Oh.

745
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:40.559
She ended with Kelvin, I don't know if I'm doing

746
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.639
the right thing in marrying John, not when I want

747
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:46.480
you so, but I'm doing it to get me out

748
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:49.159
of your life. I wish I knew the words to

749
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:51.320
say so that you could know how much I love you.

750
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:54.280
I want to hold you close to me, so close

751
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:56.880
that we are one person. I want to kiss you,

752
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.639
to hold your hand, to hear your voice, to take

753
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.880
care of I want to say to you I'm here, sweetheart.

754
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.159
I'll always be here for you, for whatever reason you want.

755
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:09.360
Please love me and keep me in your prayers. God

756
00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:12.440
has heard you and it had to be you. No

757
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.760
one else knows how ill I am, and I've never

758
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:18.119
asked him to let me get well, I love you

759
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:18.840
for always.

760
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.159
Well. Well, she's quite a writer though, Like you can

761
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:26.440
just tell kind of how she manipulating people's feelings. And

762
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:28.239
I guess she wrote. I didn't put it in here,

763
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:32.159
but she wrote a very similar letter to Harold Clinton,

764
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:35.199
the guy that had been her boss, that Frank had

765
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.280
found her in bed with very similar thing about getting

766
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:41.039
married and how but he was her true love and

767
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:41.920
all this kind of thing.

768
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:45.440
Oh boy, Kelvin replied with a long letter saying his

769
00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:48.400
love for her would never die. He also indicated in

770
00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:51.519
the letter that his wife knew about his feelings for Marie.

771
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.360
He said he couldn't leave his life in California, but

772
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.440
he was forever devoted to Marie. She must have been

773
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.000
really bummed when she got that letter.

774
00:40:59.360 --> 00:40:59.679
Yeah.

775
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.559
Another attempt to ease her money troubles, Marie told her

776
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.840
aunt in Texas that Carol had been diagnosed with leukemia.

777
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.480
Marie wanted to take her to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota,

778
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:11.960
but the expense was too much for her. Marie's aunt

779
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.199
offered to lend her a few thousand dollars, which Marie

780
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.519
gratefully accepted. Over time, Marie was supposed to come visit

781
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:21.880
Mike and Terry in Florida, but she canceled at the

782
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.559
last minute. She told Mike she had been driving to

783
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.360
the airport in Birmingham when she was run off the

784
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.960
road by two men who stole her purse and cut

785
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.599
her arm with a knife. She was very vague about

786
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:35.039
the whole thing, other than to say the cut on

787
00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:38.440
her arm wasn't serious. Mike was concerned, so he called

788
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.599
the Alabama State Police and the local Birmingham police to

789
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:45.039
get more information, but no one was aware of the incident.

790
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.000
Growing more concerned for his mother, Mike gently suggested that

791
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.360
she consider getting a psychiatric evaluation, after all, she had

792
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:56.880
been under a lot of stress since Frank died. Marie

793
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:59.840
was offended by the suggestion, telling him there was nothing

794
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.679
wrong with her and she did not need any help.

795
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.519
I think Mike. Mike might have had a point there, definitely,

796
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:11.119
Marie had fallen behind on her payments on the Oldsmobile

797
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:14.920
she bought after Frank died. And needed to downgrade. Mike

798
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.000
mentioned that he had a Chevy Nova that he was

799
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:19.360
planning to trade in because he had had a lot

800
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.239
of problems with it. Marie offered to take it off

801
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:25.159
his hands and take over the payments. Mike said, are

802
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.000
you sure it has a lot of problems. Marie said,

803
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:30.960
don't worry. I know a good mechanic. So Mike agreed

804
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:33.679
to give Marie his car in exchange for her taking

805
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:36.960
over the payments. As you might imagine, this proved to

806
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.599
be a big mistake when Mike started getting calls from

807
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:43.360
a collection agency several months later saying that no payments

808
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:46.079
had been made on the car. He called his mom,

809
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.199
who claimed that she had sold the car. Mike made

810
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.039
a trip to Alabama to try to straighten things out.

811
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.639
Mike went to the car lot where Marie said she

812
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:56.920
had sold the car. They told him that they had

813
00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:59.639
given Marie twenty six hundred dollars for the Nova and

814
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:02.239
that she had promised to bring the title to them,

815
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.880
but she hadn't done it. Mike was angry at his mother.

816
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:09.840
She was destroying his credit rating. The collection agency said

817
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:13.239
that he owed two thousand dollars. Marie said, don't worry

818
00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:15.519
about it. I'll just sell some of your father's stock.

819
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:18.800
Marie had been claiming for years to her children that

820
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.880
Frank had left her a bunch of company stock. She

821
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:23.760
said that she just needed to go to the bank

822
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.000
and take care of it. Mike demanded that they head

823
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:29.360
to the bank right after lunch to take care of things.

824
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.719
But after lunch, Mike got very sick. He started vomiting,

825
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.639
and when it didn't subside, Marie took him to the er,

826
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:39.280
where they gave him some medication to help with the

827
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:42.360
nausea and to help him rest. The next morning, when

828
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.159
he woke up, Marie gave him the money she had

829
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:48.559
sold Carol's car, which was fine, she said, because Carol

830
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:51.800
didn't need her car anyway. I'm sure Carol was thrilled.

831
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:58.440
Kids, But yeah, yeah, I can't imagine treating your children

832
00:43:58.519 --> 00:43:58.719
like that.

833
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:02.079
No, it's hard to imagine. The next week, Mike was

834
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.679
back in Florida and his mom called with another bazaar story.

835
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:08.960
She said that a man had been calling her demanding money.

836
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:12.079
The man said that Frank had been deep into gambling

837
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:14.280
debt and owed him a bunch of money. If she

838
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:16.960
didn't pay up, he would hurt both Marie and Carol.

839
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:19.239
By this time, Mike was at the end of his

840
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.679
rope with his mom and her constant drama. He told her,

841
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.159
you need to call the FBI if this is happening.

842
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:27.239
They're the ones who are equipped to deal with this,

843
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:30.679
not me. She did call the FBI and told them

844
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.719
about the threatening calls. She said that she had no

845
00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:35.920
idea who the man was, but he seemed to know

846
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:38.920
a lot about her and her family. He said that

847
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.840
Frank owed him ten thousand dollars and he wanted her

848
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.679
to make a payment of at least five thousand dollars

849
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:48.840
now or there would be consequences. The FBI called the

850
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:52.960
Anniston Police Department and spoke with Lieutenant Carroll. He told

851
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:56.000
them about his experience with Marie, saying that her story

852
00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:59.519
was most likely made up, but the FBI decided to

853
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:02.639
take it so seat seriously, just in case. The man

854
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:06.760
who called Marie left specific instructions for her. He said,

855
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.440
put five thousand dollars in an envelope, take it to

856
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:12.480
the local wind Dixie supermarket, and put it in the

857
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:16.199
dog food aisle behind the ALPO. The FBI and the

858
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:19.679
local police put the package together a few hundred dollars

859
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.960
bills wrapped around some blank papers enough to make it

860
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:26.760
look like five thousand dollars. They then sprinkled the package

861
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.320
with thief powder, which I had never heard of before.

862
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:33.079
Apparently it's dust that stains purple once it comes into

863
00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:37.559
contact with moisture from your hands. Officers took their places

864
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.320
in the parking lot, along with having an undercover officer

865
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:43.440
pose as a shopper in the store. Then Marie took

866
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.599
the envelope into the store and put it behind the

867
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:50.519
Alpo cans in the pet food aisle. Then they waited. Eventually,

868
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.280
a man wearing a suit and tie walked in. He

869
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:57.840
seemed nervous. The officers were immediately on high alert. He

870
00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:01.159
went and picked up some toilet paper, looking around apprehensively,

871
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.480
and then he made his way to the pet food aisle.

872
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.599
He looked around and reached behind the bags of Alpo. Remember,

873
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.920
Marie had placed the envelope behind the cans, and so

874
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:14.159
he didn't find the envelope. As he was doing this,

875
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:17.480
another shopper came down the aisle. The man quickly walked

876
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.079
away and left the store. One of the officers recognized

877
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.800
the man. It was Walter Clinton, prominent local businessman and

878
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.239
the man whom Frank Hilly had walked in on in

879
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.719
bed with his wife. Lieutenant Carroll paid a visit to

880
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:33.320
Walter Clinton, who told him that a woman had called

881
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.159
him in a quiet voice. She told him that she

882
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:38.719
had some papers that would be very useful to him,

883
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:41.760
and that she would leave them behind the alpo at

884
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.119
the wind Dixie. Clinton said he had no idea who

885
00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.960
the caller was or what it could pertain to, but

886
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:50.719
he had been involved in a lawsuit with a former customer,

887
00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:53.800
so he thought maybe it was related to that. The

888
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:58.199
whole thing was just bizarre. Lieutenant Carroll was convinced that

889
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:00.400
Marie had made the whole thing up and had made

890
00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:03.119
the call to Walter Clinton, but he couldn't prove anything.

891
00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:07.159
The matter was dropped crazy. It was just crazy, isn't it.

892
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:08.480
Yeah.

893
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.239
In nineteen seventy nine, Carol turned nineteen. Marie was concerned

894
00:47:13.239 --> 00:47:17.159
that Carol seemed to lack direction. Marie encouraged her to

895
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.000
attend the State Technical School in Anniston to learn a trade.

896
00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:24.000
She attended for a semester, thinking about going into nursing

897
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.719
or cosmetology, but she abandoned it after just one semester.

898
00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.800
She then started attending Jacksonville State University, majoring in law enforcement,

899
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.280
although she didn't really know what she wanted to do

900
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.679
with that. She was still living at home while taking classes.

901
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.159
Do you think Marie got nervous when she said she

902
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.679
was taking law enforcements?

903
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.280
She should have gotten nervous. In early nineteen seventy nine,

904
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.840
Marie took out some life insurance policies on herself, Carol,

905
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.679
and Mike. For the policies covering herself, the total amount

906
00:47:53.719 --> 00:47:57.159
was fifty thousand dollars, with Carol and Mike as the beneficiaries.

907
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.760
The policies on Carroll totaled thirty nine dollars dollars with

908
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.119
Marie as beneficiary, and the policy on Mike was for

909
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:09.039
twenty five thousand dollars, also with Marie as beneficiary. Seems

910
00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:11.119
really odd to me to take out life insurance on

911
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:14.119
your children, because I bet that's a very unusual thing.

912
00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:18.039
Yeah, especially when your children are adults, and maybe back

913
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:22.559
in the nineteen seventies they wouldn't have been informed. Yeah,

914
00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:24.760
that insurance policy was taken out on that right.

915
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:28.519
That could be that spring Carol, who was tiny at

916
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.440
five foot one and one hundred and five pounds started

917
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:35.119
getting sick. It started with nausea and vomiting that didn't

918
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:38.400
seem to improve. Eventually, Marie took her to the er,

919
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.440
where they took a blood sample and gave her a

920
00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:42.960
shot to help with the nausea. By the next day,

921
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.000
Carol was feeling mostly back to normal, but a few

922
00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:49.599
days later she got sick again, nausea and vomiting again,

923
00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:54.280
now accompanied by severe abdominal pains. Carol was frightened because

924
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:56.920
her symptoms were reminiscent of her dad's when he first

925
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.199
got sick again. Marie took her to the er where

926
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.079
they ran some tests. Again. They were inconclusive, but Carol

927
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:08.199
eventually started feeling better and was released again. However, she

928
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:12.840
was back the next day. The doctors were baffled. Carol's

929
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:15.719
illness dragged on and on. There would be periods when

930
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:18.599
she would feel better, but she would invariably get sick again.

931
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.079
She started falling behind on her classes, and she became

932
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:26.440
anxious and depressed. Marie told Carroll's doctors about her growing

933
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:30.480
depression and anxiety. After four months of being in and

934
00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:33.840
out of the hospital, doctors started wondering if Carol's illness

935
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:38.000
had a psychological cause. Carol was outraged at the suggestion

936
00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:41.559
and was adamant that she didn't need to see a psychiatrist.

937
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.920
As time went on, Carol's condition worsened. In addition to

938
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.360
the nausea, vomiting, and stomach pain, she started to become

939
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:53.480
fatigued and to lose feeling in her extremities. Her toes

940
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:56.360
were numb and her legs were weak. She couldn't walk

941
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.400
up more than a few stairs by herself. Marie took

942
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:01.719
her to a new day, this time a specialist in

943
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:05.440
internal medicine. He was shocked at Carol's condition. She was

944
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:09.239
down fifteen pounds from one oh five to ninety. She

945
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:13.199
was badly dehydrated and could barely walk. The doctor wanted

946
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:16.960
to hospitalize her, but Carol refused. The doctor couldn't force

947
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.400
her to stay, so he prescribed thorazine tablets for the nausea,

948
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:24.119
and Carol returned home with her mom. Carol sunk deeper

949
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:27.840
into depression and attempted suicide by swallowing several tailand all

950
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:31.519
tablets one night. The next morning, she woke up feeling terrible,

951
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:34.719
and Marie took her back to the hospital. Now the

952
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:39.280
doctors were thinking that perhaps Carol was anorexic. This angered Carol,

953
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.400
who swore that she wasn't starving herself, she just couldn't

954
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.239
keep any food down. She told the doctor, though, that

955
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:49.880
she was having suicidal thoughts. Marie's conversations with the doctors

956
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:53.679
reinforced the idea that Carol's problems were psychological in nature.

957
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.280
Carol had become very impatient and short tempered as her

958
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:01.760
illness progressed. She would vacillate between anger, screaming and yelling,

959
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:07.039
to becoming depressed and withdrawn, just staring into space. Marie

960
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.840
also knew that Carol was using marijuana. Carol was placed

961
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:15.039
in the hospital's psychiatric ward. While Carol was battling her

962
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.880
unknown ailment, Marie's financial troubles continued worsening. She was bouncing

963
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:22.679
checks left and right, including checks that she sent to

964
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:25.960
cover the life insurance policies she had taken out earlier

965
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.199
that year. Marie would open bank accounts, telling the bankers

966
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:32.760
that she had just sold a house in Florida and

967
00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:36.360
would be depositing the proceeds. She wrote bad checks to

968
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:39.400
open the accounts, then would withdraw the money before the

969
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:42.079
checks were returned. From her other bank. It was a

970
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:44.360
juggling act that was bound to fail eventually.

971
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:46.079
And now I'm really stressed out.

972
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:48.559
Yeah, and you know, things are so different now. But

973
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:51.079
back then, you could do that for a time, right,

974
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.079
You could write a check and it would take a

975
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:54.840
few days before they found out.

976
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:59.800
Oh yeah, I played that game for a while for sure. Yeah.

977
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.280
Mike and Terry were receiving threatening letters from MasterCard when

978
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.000
visiting one time, Marie had apparently found a credit card

979
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.639
that Mike kept in a drawer but never used. Eventually,

980
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:13.000
after Marie had cashed a total of more than five

981
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:16.440
thousand dollars in bad checks, the bank filed charges and

982
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:17.559
Marie was arrested.

983
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:21.119
I just ran that through the inflation calculator and that's

984
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.719
twenty four thousand dollars. Then you're to twenty four thousand

985
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:30.400
dollars and all the other moneies too that she's stolen

986
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:33.960
or conned Mike out of. That's horrible to do to

987
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:36.960
your and he's a pastor and he probably doesn't make

988
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.400
a lot of money.

989
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:41.840
Yeah, she really took advantage of him. Carol learned about

990
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.599
the arrest of her mom from a friend. The next day,

991
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:46.760
Marie came to visit Carol in the hospital as if

992
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:49.559
nothing had happened. Carol said, I heard you were arrested.

993
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:52.719
What's going on? Marie said, Oh, it was just a mistake,

994
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:56.480
nothing to worry about. Soon after Marie was arrested for

995
00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:00.320
the bad checks, Mike came from Florida for a visit day,

996
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.920
visiting with his grandmother, Frank's mom, Carrie. Carrie asked him, Mike,

997
00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:07.480
do you remember when your dady died? Did you ever

998
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.159
know anything about your mother giving him an injection while

999
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:13.159
he was home sick that week before he died. Mike

1000
00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:16.239
said no, he didn't know anything about that. Carrie told

1001
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:18.360
him that Frank had said something to her about it

1002
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:20.960
while he was in the hospital and that something just

1003
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:23.800
didn't seem right about the whole thing to her, which

1004
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:27.480
I can imagine right, like somebody's giving you an injection

1005
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:29.559
in the hospital and it's not a doctor or a nurse.

1006
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:32.960
When Mike returned to Florida, he told his wife Terry

1007
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.480
about the conversation. She suggested they talk to her dad,

1008
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:40.360
Happy Henderson and get his advice. Happy asked, Mike, are

1009
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:43.960
you suspicious that your mom killed your dad? Mike felt

1010
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:47.400
a sense of relief. Someone had finally given voice to

1011
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.679
his deepest fear, something that he was unable to say himself.

1012
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:54.360
But yes, deep down, that's exactly what he was starting

1013
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:58.360
to believe. Happy suggested that Mike call the coroner's office,

1014
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.559
who had done the autopsy and Frank. Mike called them

1015
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.519
the next day and asked whether a diagnosis of infectious

1016
00:54:04.519 --> 00:54:09.320
hepatitis could possibly be consistent with someone being poisoned. They

1017
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:12.719
said yes, in theory, that could be the case. Mike

1018
00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:15.239
asked them if they could exume Frank's body to do

1019
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:19.079
further testing. The coroner said it was possible, but there

1020
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.960
would need to be more evidence to justify something like that.

1021
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:24.760
They told Mike to let them know if he learned

1022
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:28.519
anything else that might point in that direction. And I

1023
00:54:28.519 --> 00:54:31.039
think that is where we're going to end Part one.

1024
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:33.400
Wow, what a story.

1025
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.440
What do you think about Marie so far?

1026
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:38.400
I think Marie might have some issues.

1027
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:41.599
Yeah, I think she might. Why do you think? I mean,

1028
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:44.280
I know she has issues, But why did she make

1029
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:49.320
all these calls to the police about all these incidents? Yeah?

1030
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:52.480
Well, she needed a lot of attention, and I think

1031
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.679
she probably really liked mail attention. She was used to

1032
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.960
mail attention, and her husband was gone for some reason,

1033
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.760
and you know, she was getting older and probably not

1034
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:04.719
getting as much attention as she was used to.

1035
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:08.480
So yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What do you think

1036
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:11.880
about Marie's relationship with her daughter Carol?

1037
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:15.400
They were very different and parents back in the nineteen

1038
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:18.840
seventies and nineteen eighties didn't have the mindset that parents

1039
00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:21.880
do today that I will accept my child and love

1040
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:26.800
them for who they were. I think parents were more controlling,

1041
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:29.719
and they wanted their kids to turn out a certain

1042
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:34.119
way and did everything they could to make them, you know,

1043
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:36.840
turn out how they wanted them to write. Yeah, and

1044
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:39.159
I think or are they really messed up, mess them

1045
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:43.760
up psychologically, you know, by trying to control them.

1046
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:45.760
Yeah, for sure. I think they were very different in

1047
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:47.280
a lot of ways, but in some ways they were

1048
00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:50.760
the same. And that like, they were both very kind

1049
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.039
of headstrong and had their own ideas, and so I

1050
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.719
think they would clash because of that. But I feel

1051
00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:59.199
like Marie almost like either hated Carol or was jealous

1052
00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:01.840
of Carol or something. But there was definitely, you know,

1053
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:05.000
something there that was just not a healthy relationship between

1054
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:05.920
the two of them, right.

1055
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:09.440
I wish that Carol would have severed ties with her mom.

1056
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:11.239
I think that probably would have been the best thing

1057
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:11.639
for her.

1058
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:14.679
Yeah, for sure. This story takes place, you know, in

1059
00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:17.679
the sixties and seventies, And I also find it interesting,

1060
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:20.800
like Marie's career as a secretary, partly because my mom

1061
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.639
was a secretary and it was just you know, I

1062
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:28.159
know that job has kind of morphed into administrative assistant now, but.

1063
00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:31.000
I was an executive assistant for several years.

1064
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:34.000
Yeah, that's right. My mom used to write shorthand, which

1065
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:35.400
it just always kind of blew my.

1066
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:38.320
Mind when you talked about shorthanded. Yeah, it brought me back, because, yeah,

1067
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:39.480
it used to be a thing.

1068
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.159
It's just a whole other like language. I would look

1069
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:44.119
at what my mom would write and be, what, what

1070
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:45.800
the heck is this? It just looks like a bunch of.

1071
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.320
Squiggles that well King just write really fast and stive,

1072
00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:50.599
you know, making those little Yeah.

1073
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:53.360
Yeah, it's a whole different world now, we just don't

1074
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:53.639
have that.

1075
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.920
I could use an assistant, Yeah, couldn't you.

1076
00:56:57.719 --> 00:56:58.840
I mean I think we all could.

1077
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:03.360
Yeah, I had various people. You've never had an assistant

1078
00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:05.679
just for you what you've shared them with? Your team

1079
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:08.360
or whatever, like admin, and it.

1080
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:11.920
Has like in jobs that I have had an admin support,

1081
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:14.679
like my team or whatever, it has felt like a luxury,

1082
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:20.039
like being able to just hand over receipts and exactly. Yeah.

1083
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:21.880
I had a hard time getting used to actually asking

1084
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.880
someone to do that for me, but it was very nice.

1085
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.360
There are a lot of moving parts to the podcast

1086
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:30.960
and life, and it is hard to get everything done.

1087
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:31.800
It is.

1088
00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:40.159
So the other day, I thought you were trying to

1089
00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:40.519
kill me?

1090
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:42.639
Wow, would you think that I was.

1091
00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:44.320
I went into our bathroom to take a shower, and

1092
00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:46.599
I stepped into the shower and I almost fell, like

1093
00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:50.199
I slipped really bad, and there was what I thought

1094
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:53.239
was so a shampoo bottle was on the ground, and

1095
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:56.840
I thought like it had spilled all over and it

1096
00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:59.840
made the title, which is actually kind of slippery anyway,

1097
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:03.239
this yeah, and so this shampoo was all over and

1098
00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:05.519
it looked like the shampoo bottle had fallen and cracked.

1099
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:07.599
And that was going to be your story to the police,

1100
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:10.159
that the shampoo just kind of, you know, leached out

1101
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:13.599
of the bottle and I thought it was you. But

1102
00:58:13.679 --> 00:58:18.639
then upon further inspection, I had left a bottle of

1103
00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:22.639
body wash and I had put it back on the

1104
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.519
shelf and it was still open and it had like

1105
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:28.719
leaked all the way, like the whole bottle had looked

1106
00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:31.679
out on the floor of the shower. Wow, that's a

1107
00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:36.480
great story. But I really my condition was, oh my god,

1108
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:38.840
he's trying to kill me, because if one of us

1109
00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:41.280
ends up debt, it's gonna it's gonna be a good story.

1110
00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:43.119
I'm not sure how I feel about that that that

1111
00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:45.880
was your first thought, is that rich is trying to

1112
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:46.280
kill me.

1113
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:49.320
I mean, I've had I've had some trumpet in my life.

1114
00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:51.559
It's still you know. The thing is like whenever we

1115
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:53.920
go on a trip and we go to the bathroom.

1116
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:56.360
I might have mentioned this before because I literally think

1117
00:58:56.400 --> 00:58:59.039
this every time, and you were so nice, but and

1118
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:01.440
you're always there. But whenever we're like, okay, well you

1119
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:03.599
I'll go to the Yeah, we'll just go to the bathroom.

1120
00:59:03.639 --> 00:59:06.360
We'll meet out here, I'm always convinced that you're not

1121
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:06.840
going to be there.

1122
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:08.840
I'm just going to drive off leave you at the rest.

1123
00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:12.239
Yes, yes, preferably without a purse or my cell phone.

1124
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:15.119
Yea, yeah, it must be tough going through life.

1125
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:17.559
You'll just go dark. Yeah, it just happens.

1126
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:19.199
I was going to guess when you were telling the

1127
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:20.800
story about the shower, I was going to guess that

1128
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:22.679
it was one of our cats who tried to kill you,

1129
00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:24.800
because I could I could totally see that.

1130
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.360
Well, that's what you're going to tell the police. I

1131
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:27.440
was the cat. It wasn't me.

1132
00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:30.960
Boy. Well, I'm glad you did not fall, and I'm

1133
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:31.840
glad you're okay.

1134
00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:34.400
But it took like forever to like, you know, because

1135
00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:38.440
it was like a half bottle of kind of expensive

1136
00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:41.400
body wasts. I was a little pumped, But that happens.

1137
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:43.840
Well, most important thing is that you're saying.

1138
00:59:43.599 --> 00:59:46.960
Well, and I so you didn't slip at all. No,

1139
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:48.840
it must have happened between the time you took a

1140
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:50.239
shower and I took a shower because I always go

1141
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:53.400
after you. Yeah maybe, so, Hey, don't forget. If you're

1142
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:56.440
interested in buying any love Mary kill Merche, go to

1143
00:59:56.559 --> 01:00:02.000
bonfire dot com slash his store Slash Love Dash Airy

1144
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:06.440
Dash Killed Store, but that will also be in her show.

1145
01:00:06.760 --> 01:00:08.840
In the show notes, thank you in advance for anyone

1146
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:10.519
that makes a purchase there.

1147
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:14.199
Thank you everyone for listening. We really appreciate it. We

1148
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:16.800
hope you come back for part two and part three.

1149
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:20.039
If you'd like to hear all three parts today, consider

1150
01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:23.320
supporting us on patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill.

1151
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:26.599
We have one tier five dollars, a month early ad

1152
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:30.559
free access, and a monthly bonus episode Until next time.

1153
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:32.880
Don't kill your wife and try to blame the cat.

1154
01:00:33.400 --> 01:01:21.599
And don't kill your husband. M gamma globulin is also

1155
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:27.599
known as immunoglobli. Save that one as a blue parl