Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 3 of 3

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of. Marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary. Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich? How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to being done with Marie Hilly forever. I would absolutely like to tie this up with a bow and get rid of it. Yeah, fascinating story, but I've had enough of Marie. Yeah.

0:40 I think our audience probably has. Two probably so so do you think our opening is too flippant? You know, I've always kind of thought that, to be honest with you, but I don't see us changing it now. I think if you've listened to our podcast long enough, you know that we try our best to be empathetic and have an we advocate for victims, and but yeah, I mean, and our closing I think is a little flippant too. But we had a comment on Spotify that somebody said they loved everything about us, but they think the opening is too flippant. And I think we've we've debated that when we started, but we've been doing it for two years now, so probably not going to change. How about our theme song? Though, Oh you want to go there again?

1:20 You know I don't even listen to this podcast, so I guess if I were a listener, I would probably message you every week, please change your theme song, Please change your theme. But I don't listen to it. So I just listen to other podcasts, and their theme songs are like boppy and you. Don't believe you're going to go here again. I know I should give up because every time I say this, people are like, I love your music. So I don't. Anyway, thank you so much for hanging out with us and putting up with us. And I'm sure you don't love everything about us, because we don't even love everything about us. But anyway, so I have a snack for you. I don't have a song for. Work and a knife. Yeah crazy, you know, no song. I have no song. Well you killed it in episodes one and two. Well, I was just in Chicago, so I brought back my hometown from your hometown of Chicago. I have a bad feeling most of the snack is going to go to waste because I think you're the only one in the house, Who will really eat this? And I know you're trying to eat fewer. It might be cheese cheese cake from Eli's Sheese Kids, and I couldn't just buy a slice I had Holy moly, I had to buy the best of Eli's very crample to me. So yeah, it's got well it's got original plane chocolate truffle, apple crumble, and raspberry swirl all in the same package.

2:40 That was very kind of you. For myself, I bought these Jays potato chesh you get the cheesecake. So I used to work in a grocery store, like like when my whole youth, I worked in a grocery store, so these products are both very familiar to I guess I didn't. I haven't even thought of Jay's in like twenty five years. But yeah, that was a huge They used to come in like a cardboard box and there were two bags enclosed. Anyone from the Chicago area probably knows what I'm talking about, but it was a very specific like box like it. Really Yeah, so I wanted to get you missus Fishers, but I didn't find those. So anyway, if anyone out there in Rockford, Rockford, Illinois is listening, missus Fishers were just a family staple for me growing up, and like my mom would hide them, my dad would hide them, and they were kind of like I think that's why I liked them so much, because, like you know, the kids weren't really allowed to have them or whatever, but then they took the transfer. I haven't had them since actually, but yeah, they were they and you were mixed on them whenever we would go back to Rockford. But yeah, all right, so thank you so much.

3:49 All right, let's have some cheesecake. You're gonna have a piece, No, not, probably not. I'll bite though. Okay, what a trooper? Did you enjoy your Eli's cheesecake? I just had one small bite. Yeah, it's delicious. Not as good as probably Cheesecake Factory. Cheesecake Factory is just the top tier and it always is so decad in because it has Reese's peanut butter cups or oreos or whatever. But that was great. Thank you so much. I'm not a cheesecake connoissewer, but I would have thought Eli's was probably a better cheesecake than Cheesecake Factory. I don't, but I really don't. I am not very refined as. You know I bought that at the Jewel Osco.

4:31 I mean, yeah, of course you did. Did you buy it in Chicago or in Indiana? In Chicago? Yeah, it was right near at my hotel. And how about the Jay's hot stuff the table are really good. I've never had those before and I liked him. Yeah. Ten out of ten for boat snacks, Thank you so much. Some ladies get flowers, I get cheesecake. And you also were very sweet and brought some Garretts popcorn back to I did. Yeah, what a guy. Before we jump into part three of mariney Hilly, we still we have our merch sale going on, and to see that, go to merch. Dot Lovemarykill dot com. Hopefully that will work and redirect you to our store. But we're keeping the store open until December tenth. We had a couple of issues trying to get it up there, so we're extending the time a little bit. Fifty percent of the proceeds from our merch sale will go to Saint Jude Children's Research Hospital.

5:24 Would you like to give us a quick recap before we get into part three. Absolutely. If you haven't listened to parts one and two, go do that. In part two, Marie's family finally realized she might have poisoned her husband Frank, her daughter Carol, but also possibly several other people. They figured it out just in time for poor Carol, who had been very sick for months. Marie was arrested for attempted murder of her daughter, while Frank's body was exhumed to see whether he had died of arsenic poisoning as well, and testing confirmed that he did. But before the testing was complete, Marie, who was out on bail, vanished. She adopted a new identity, Robbie Hannon. She got married to a man named John Holman, and they moved from Florida to New Hampshire. They were living a quiet life, but then Marie left. John went to Texas, then back to Florida and decided to kill off her Robbie Hannon persona and became Robbie's twin sister Terry Martin. I forgot about that. When we ended part two.

6:26 Terry had called John to let him know that his wife was dead and that she was coming to New Hampshire to meet John and support him in his grief. This is where the story just goes off the rails. Oh no, now, it goes off the rails. Yes. Interesting. How do you think John felt when he found out that there was another twin? Was he like, was she the evil twin? Or are you the evil twin? I think we're gonna We're gonna find out it did a few minutes here. How he felt about that? How would you feel if there was another Tina? If you got rid of Tina, oh, and then Trina called you a wow? In some ways it would be like, oh, I lost my beautiful, lovely wife Tina. But then there's somebody else coming in to take her place that's exactly the same.

7:09 So you know, I know think twins are exactly the same. Well, in Marie's case, I think they were pretty much. Her voice is exactly the same. It is wild. When John picked up Terry at the airport, he must have been struck by how much she looked like his dead wife Robbie. But there were differences. Terry's hair was blonde, she was a bit thinner, and her personality was more flashy and outgoing than her sister. After she arrived, Terry and John went together to the office of the Keen Sentinel newspaper and wrote up an obituary for Robbie Homan, which was published the next day. Terry wanted John to show her around the town. She wanted to know how her sister had lived, where she had worked, who she had been friends with. John took her to Central Screw.

7:56 That was where Robbie had lived. That's really brave of. Her, incredibly brazen. Terry had called them earlier to relay the sad news about her sister's death. When she and John showed up at Central Screw, it caused quite a stir Some people were convinced that it was Robbie, while others noted that this woman was clearly different. She was thinner and her face had a different shape. You talked a little bit in the last episode about her Marie and her coworkers, and so they got along for the most part well. When she first started at Central Screw, everyone really liked her and they were fascinated by her story because she was from out of town and she talked about all this wealth. But they kind of soured down her pretty quickly, like they found that she was full of herself. She wanted to be the center of attention. She did have one good friend there, though, and that was Claudia. So when John and Terry went there, Terry asked if she could speak to Claudia because she said her sister had talked about Claudia and how they were good friends. When Claudia saw Terry, she broke down crying because just the likeness was too much. Claudia even noticed that Terry was wearing one of Robbie's ski jackets and also carrying the same purse that Robbie had used to carry, but she also she had no doubts though, that this woman was not Robbie Homan. Terry told everyone that Robbie had donated her body to the Texas Medical Research Center. There had been no funeral or no memorial service. Terry told people that she was divorced and that she had flown in from Dallas. She said there was nothing keeping her in Dallas,

9:29 so she was planning to stay in New Hampshire for a while. After Terry and John left the Central Screw Office, a fierce debate started among the staff. While most believed her story. After all, Robbie had been sick with this rare blood disease, they all knew about it, and she had spoken frequently of her twin sister when she worked there, but others thought the whole thing was an elaborate prank or a hoax of some sort. One employee, Sandy, was especially adamant. She said to her co workers, bullshit, that's Robbie took Terry into his workplace and told his boss that he would need some time off to grieve over the loss of his wife. His boss was sympathetic, but at the same time thought, man, this guy's pretty lucky.

10:10 His wife dies and she has an identical twin that basically comes to take her place. I mean, a twin isn't the same person. It's not like she's a clone. She's you know, they're different people. But obviously in this case they're not. I know, it's a crazy story, but yeah, in general, in normal circumstances, I would say, just replacing someone with their twin is not the same thing. Terry stayed with John at his little house. At first, John slept on the couch while Terry slept in his bed, but within a few weeks the relationship became intimate. What the thing, I wonder and. I bet it's the same thing I'm thinking about. Go ahead, Well, we'll never know. But John just didn't seem to realize that this was the same person. But I would think when they got intimate with each other.

10:57 Why your boobs are exactly the same? Just yeah, everything would just be the same. Yeah. John and his brother Peter hadn't spoken since their falling out a few years earlier, but when Peter heard the news about Robbie's death, he thought maybe there was an opportunity for them to repair their relationship. He drove over to John's house. Terry answered the door. Peter, who didn't know about Robbie's twin, was in shock. He blurted out, I thought you were dead. Terry explained to him that she wasn't Robbie, she was Robbie's twin. She invited him in, and the three of them sat and talked. Peter could tell that his brother was genuinely upset over losing his wife. The brothers left on good terms, with plans to get together again soon. When Peter's wife met Terry, she was struck by the differences in Terry's personality compared to Robbie's.

11:47 Terry was more interested in being active than Robbie had been. Terry was eager to try cross country skiing, while Robbie had no interest in it. They did both share a love of reading. But Terry smoked a lot more than Robbie had, she watched more TV, and she seemed less interested in housekeeping. It's really interesting that Marie made these changes in her personality just to try to make it seem like she was a different person, and a lot of people bought it. Yeah, if I come back as a twin, my twin definitely is not going to be cooking and cleaning. So John continued showing Terry around town, introducing her to the places and people that her sister had known. Everywhere she went, people mistook her for Robbie, and she gently corrected them. Terry decided if she was going to stay, she should get a job. She went to the same employment agency that had placed her sister. While Terry's work experience was a bit different from her sisters, she also had excellent secretarial skills. Coincidentally, her shorthand speed was similar can ask about shorthand, although her typing was a bit slower.

12:51 The agency found her a job at book Press, a book printing company in Brattleboro, Vermont, thirty three miles from Marlowe. She would be the executives secretary to the VP of Sales. Terry and John settled into a similar routine as Robbie and John. They would drive into town in the morning and have breakfast at the Friendly's restaurant most mornings. Then John would head to work, while Terry would head to the bus station and take the bus to Brattleborough. In the evening, John would pick her up again at the bus station. Several people who had known Robbie and now got to know Terry had doubts about Terry's identity, but for the most part, people accepted her as the sister of the woman that they had known. For his part, John never seemed to doubt that this was a different person than his wife. He did express some doubts about some details of both Terry and Robbie's stories. Robbie had talked, if you remember about her inheritance, that she was going to go and claim this inheritance that her husband had left her, but it never seemed to happen. John confided in a friend once that he wasn't sure whether there actually was an inheritance, but it didn't matter to him.

13:58 They didn't need money to be happy. I'd be interested if any twins knew Marie and if they were like no, you know what I mean, Like, I feel like twins would be like no, no, twins don't identical. Twins don't even look identify right, have scars or moles or freckles or whatever. Yep. After the initial uproar caused by Terry's visit to Central Screw, things seemed to have calmed down a bit. In the office. Everyone saw Robbie's obituary and that seemed to be the end of it. But Sandy, the employee who had called the story bullshit, wasn't about to let it drop. She kept talking with others in the office until there ended up being two distinctive teams. One team that believed Robbie had died and Terry was her twin sister, and another that thought the whole story was some sort of bizarre hoax.

14:47 Terry and Robbie were clearly the same person. Did she have any pictures of them together? Well, obviously she didn't. Never mind that a stupid question, but too, could she have doctored a picture? I guess is what I was thinking back in those days. Yeah, Claudia, I'm not going to take that out because I think it's funny people will let up about it. Claudia, who had been Robbie's best friend in the office, was firmly in the Robbie is dead camp. She was upset that her co workers couldn't accept it and kept stirring things up. The ladies on the Robbie and Terrier the same person team, decided to start making some phone calls. There was a bit of information in the obituary that they could try to verify.

15:33 There was Robbie's residence Tyler, Texas, the mention of Robbie's body being donated to the Medical Research in the Institute in Dallas, and that Robbie had been a member of the Sacred Heart Church in Tyler. The women started making calls to see if there was indeed a medical Research institute there and found nothing, and there didn't seem to be a Sacred Heart Church in Tyler either. Sandy called Directory Assistance to see if there was any listing for Terry Martin or Robbie Holman and Tyler, there were a couple of Terry Martin's. Sandy called them and both confirmed they were different people. There seemed to be no record of either woman around Tyler. That's so interesting that these women were so invested and it wasn't easy then to you know, you had to use your Yellow Pages and use directory assistance. The Internet didn't exist.

16:23 So wow, yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. So funny. John and Terry invited Claudia out for dinner with them one night. Claudia went anxious for the opportunity to observe Terry at close range. Doubts were starting to creep in for Claudia as well. Claudia had an old friend, Tommy Dale, who was a police officer in Keen, New Hampshire. She told him about this mystery and that everyone was talking about it at work, and he was intrigued. He suggested that she write to the coroner in Texas and ask for a copy of Robbie's death report. She could also check with the Bureau of Vital Statistics in Texas. Claudia planned to follow up, but ended up putting it out of her mind. She was honestly sick of the whole thing and wanted to forget about it. Bob White ran a new stand near the bus station in Keene. He had known Robbie, and now we got to know Terry as she came in often while waiting for her boss to her job in Rattleborough. He refused to believe that they were two different women. One day, Bob Hardy, a senior detective with the Keen Police Department, stopped into the news stand. White told Hardy the story of this woman who was supposedly the twin of another woman who had supposedly died. He said the whole thing was fishy. He told the detective quote, I don't know what's going on, but I'd bet there's some hanky pinky there. I don't know if that's the correct usage of the word hanky pinky there. The story made Hardy curious enough to follow up.

17:48 White told him that he knew Claudia Brooks had been good friends with Robbie and that might be a good place to start. Hardy decided to pay a visit to Claudia. Claudia told Detective Hardy that Terry and John had breakfast at Friendly's mornings, so the detective asked if she could go with him and surreptitiously point Terry out to him. She agreed. After Hardy got a glimpse of Terry, he started doing some digging. He got a copy of the obituary and called the Bureau of Records and Statistics in Austin, Texas. They found no record of someone named Robbie Homan. He also found there was no such place as the Medical Research Institute in Dallas. His first thought was that Terry slash Robbie must be involved in some kind of tax evasion.

18:30 That was a common reason for someone to change their identity. He called the IRS, who promised to look into it. Hardy also called up the New Hampshire State Police. His jurisdiction only covered Keen, while Terry and John lived in Marlowe. He asked the state police to send someone out to interview some of their neighbors. It's kind of interesting that the police are, I mean, they really have no evidence that any crime has taken place. They just have bad because I don't. It's not illegal to move somewhere and change your. Name, right exactly. But it is interesting they all took everyone took such an interest in this that they were just wanted to research it. As the officers talked, one theory that came up was that John and Terry were somehow connected to the manning help me out with that name Lavassar Gang. Tom Manning and Raymond Luke Levassar were the founders of a radical Marxist domestic terrorist group called the United Freedom Front. The group had been responsible for a series of at least ten armed robberies and twenty bombings of corporate offices, courthouses, and military facilities in the New England area. They had also been connected to the murder of a New Jersey state trooper a year before. Some of the gang had been captured, but there was a reward out for the remaining six or so members of the group. One of the fugitives was Tom Manning's wife, Carol, whose description was somewhat similar to Terry Martin and John Holman seemed consistent with the description of Raymond Lavassar, who was also still at large. Lavassar was considered our and highly dangerous, so

20:01 the officer set about trying to surreptitiously observed John and Terry without tipping them off. They asked both John and Terry's employers to allow them into their offices, posing as customers to get a better look at the couple. While there were some resemblance, it was clear that John and Terry were not Raymond and Carroll, so the Manning Levaster angle was eliminated. One day, while writing the bus to Brattleborough, Terry struck up a conversation with a fellow writer, Salie Tomlinson. Sally mentioned that she normally drove to her job at Brattleborough, but once in a while she needed to take the bus when her husband needed the car. Terry asked, would you be interested in having a writer? She offered help by paying for gas. Sally agreed, so the two started commuting together most days. Terry talked a lot during their rides, telling Sally about her past, her sister who had died, her inheritance, and so on. Yet first, Sally enjoyed their talks, but over time she started getting a bad feeling about Terry Martin. She couldn't put her finger on it, but Terry made her uncomfortable.

21:03 There was one story I read where Terry brought cookies one day and she was bringing them to her office and she offered one to Sally, and Sally she didn't know why, but she was just like, had this gut feeling and she was like, no, I don't I don't want to eat that cookie, which was probably really very intuitive on her part. Oh are you foreshadowing? No? I don't think the cookies were probably poisoned, but it was just interesting that Sally had this vibe. Yeah. Meanwhile, the New Hampshire State Police and Detective Hardy of the Keen Police were still digging. They now involved the Vermont State Police because Terry was working in Vermont. They asked the Vermont State Police to check Vermont tax records for Terry Martin's birth date and social Security number, and to run a routine fugitive check. Again, no trace of Terry Martin or Robbie Homan was found. The officers got together and discussed the case. They really had nothing on this woman, whoever she was. There was no evidence she had done anything illegal, even if she was using and assumed identity.

22:05 This whole thing had really just started out of curiosity. After all, maybe they should just drop it. They decided the only thing left to do would be to approach Terry and ask her to talk. She wasn't obligated to speak with them, but it was worth a try. They decided to drive over to Book Press in Brattleborough and wait for Terry to emerge from work on a chilly January day in nineteen eighty three, Sally Tomlinson pulled into the book Press parking lot around four o'clock to pick up Terry Martin. Normally Sally picked Terry up later than that, but there was some snow in the forecast, so she had called Terry to see if she could get off a bit early. As Sally pulled up to the curb to wait for Terry, she noticed a car parked nearby with four big men in it. It seemed like they were staring at her. It made her uncomfortable. What were they doing there? Terry opened the front door and came out of the book Press office. As soon as she did, Sally saw the men get out of the car they had been sitting in. She had a brief thought that maybe these were mafia guys. As we mentioned, she had grown uneasy around Terry. Was she mixed up in something bad?

23:09 Sally locked her door. As the men got closer to her car, one of the men spoke to Terry. Briefly. Sally saw him pull something out of his pocket. It was a badge. She could just make out the FBI letters on it. Terry walked over to Sally's car. As Sally rolled down the window, Terry said, I've got a ride. I'll see you later. Sally was shaken up, not sure of what she had just witnessed, she drove off, deciding to call the Brattleborough Police Department the next morning. Meanwhile, the officers who had picked Terry up had no idea who they had in their custody. They just asked if she would come to the police station to answer a few questions, and she agreed. On the way to the station, one of the officers said, we understand that Terry Martin isn't your real name. Marie calmly answered that's right. When they got to the station, they asked her real name.

23:59 She answered Audrey Marie Hilly. It was not a name they recognized. She told them that she was wanted in Alabama for passing some bad checks and that she had been using the name Terry Martin for about three months. When they ran the check on the name Audrey Marie Hilly, they were surprised to find that she was wanted not only for passing bad checks, but also for murder and attempted murder. Not only that, but she had been a fugitive from justice for more than three years by this point. They came back to her and asked, are you sure there isn't anything else you might be wanted for. Marie said, quote, well, the police down there accused me of poisoning my daughter. That's so ridiculous. Why would I do that to my own daughter? Unquote. The officers read Marie her rights and placed her under arrest. She said she was willing to talk without a lawyer. She told them she was relieved to finally be caught. It was exhausting keeping track of her new identities and invented autobiographies. She told the officers that John didn't know anything about her past. Asked she begged them to leave him out of the whole affair, but obviously they would have to call him and question him.

25:06 They said, we can bring him in and we would allow you to speak with him. She said, quote, I've already heard him enough. I don't want to hurt him anymore unquote. Was John in love with Terry? I think he was at that point. Yeah. I think they had been together, and you know, I'm sure he saw her as very similar to her sister and fell in love with her just like he had with Robbie. They asked Marie to call John up and ask him to come into the police station. She didn't say why. He assumed that maybe she had been in an accident. When John showed up, the officers pulled him aside. They asked, did he know someone named Audrey Marie Hilly. No, he said he had never heard that name. Then they told him that Robbie Holman and Terry Martin were the same person.

25:48 He said, quote, look, I don't know where you get your information, but it's just wrong. I lived with the woman and now I live with her sister. Unquote, They said, John, were not making this up. She told us everything. Not only that, but her real name is Audrey Marie Hilly and she's wanted in Alabama for murder. John sat in stunned silence. All he could say was I lived with her. It can't be. They could tell that his disbelief was genuine. Finally, they said he was free to go, But what about my wife? He said? Can I see her? They were surprised that he still wanted to see her after learning the truth, but he did. I wonder if he thought, like, for a moment, oh, I thought my wife was dead and now it turns out she's not actually dead. So maybe he felt like this sense of relief that his wife hadn't actually died.

26:35 Yeah. Do you think then Marie would be like, I can't believe you cheated on me. With my sister. Oh gosh, so complicated. They took John down the hall to the room where Marie was sitting. She asked, did they tell you, John? He said, yes, they did. She asked if he could do her a favor and bring her some clothes before they parted ways forever. John said, quote, wait, wait a minute, it's not quite as simple as that. Did you do it? Unquote? She replied, of course not. John said, then I'm not going anywhere. I love you, dummy. I have to get the best defense I can for you. Oh you say, I love you, dummy me all the time too.

27:16 John kept his word. He stood by Marie through everything that was still to come. He later told a friend that Robbie Slash Terry slash Marie had only wanted two things when they were together, a committed relationship filled with love and his own happiness. It was her concern for him that led to her capture. He said, quote, we had three basically wonderful years. She's the best thing that ever happened to me. Unquote. He refused to believe that she could have done what she was accused of doing in Alabama. We'll be back after a break. The prosecution began preparing their case, but they knew it would not be an easy one. Frank's murder was eight years passed by this point, and Carroll's attempted murder was nearly four years old. Witnesses and memories faded, records would be difficult to find, and it was difficult to find a motive. There was money, certainly, with the insurance policies, but even that was difficult because of the bad checks.

28:16 The policy on Carroll had lapsed and wouldn't be paid out anyway. And how could they convince a jury that a woman would kill her own daughter. There was no smoking gun and no murder weapon. All they had regarding Frank's case was Freeda's word that Frank had told her about Marie giving him injections, and it wasn't even certain that would be allowed as evidence, since it would be considered hearsay. In Carroll's case, they had more to go on, since Carol could testify, but Carroll was still conflicted and her feelings towards her mother. After Marie was captured, she wrote Carol a long letter which seemed designed to manipulate Carroll's feelings. In it, she wrote, quote, I'm afraid I wasn't fair to you when you were growing up. I loved Mike, but you were so very special, and I I'm afraid I was too protective of you. I thought there couldn't ever have been a baby as beautiful and perfect as you. End quote. She said that after Frank died, that her mother died and then Mike moved away. Quote I realized that somewhere along the way, you had sort of moved into your own world, and I felt more alone than I've ever felt. I didn't know how to reach you, and I realize now that I held on too tightly. I know I've cried a million tears these past three years. I wanted to see you and talk to you so bad, but I was afraid to try to contact you. I considered suicide very seriously several times, and I knew if I didn't do that, someday I might see you again and you would love me. But if I was dead, and you ever needed me, I wouldn't be there. It's so manipulative when people use suicide

29:46 as a weapon. Yeah, Carol replied, quote, Mom, the letter you wrote me means a lot. I will keep it forever. Oh boy. She told her mom that she still loved her and she was happy to hear from her. Despite her love for her mom, Carol did cooperate with prosecutors, providing details of her ordeal. Many observers speculated that Marie may plead insanity. In a rare move, the prosecution headed this off by requesting a psychiatric exam themselves. Usually this was something the defense did, but in this case, the prosecution wanted to put the idea to bed right away. After an extensive interview with Marie, an independent psychiatrist and psychologists both determined that she was able to understand the charges against her.

30:32 For their part, the defense strategy was to provide reasonable doubt by suggesting that perhaps Freda had poisoned her brother and her niece. She had access to both of them, and maybe the rat poisons she claimed to have found among Marie's things was made up. The courtroom was packed with over four hundred observers as The trial was set to start in Aniston in June nineteen eighty three. So I guess people have been true crime bands for a long time. This was Anniston's not a big city, and this was like just such a major story over the course. It's a huge courtroom too, though, Yeah, yeah, for sure, courtrooms I think are smaller today. Perhaps surprisingly, Marie's defense team hadn't requested a change of venue. The jury of twelve men and two women, two being alternates, were set to be sequestered at the Anniston Holiday Inn for the duration of the trial. John Holman, who had spent all of his remaining inheritance on Marie's defense, sad in support of her throughout the trial, sometimes speaking with her during breaks.

31:29 In the proceedings, the prosecution carefully laid out the timeline of Frank's illness and death, his exhumation, and the discovery of arsenic among Marie's things. Carol took the stand to tell the story of her illness, along with the injections and other medicine given to her by her mother. The defense, in addition to suggesting that Freedom might have poisoned her brother, also pointed the finger at Carol, suggesting she might have intentionally poisoned herself. They said Carol had serious psychological issues drugs, had engaged in homosexual activities, and had attempted suicide on at least three occasions. Marie, on the other hand, was doing everything possible to get her daughter help. She was relentless in trying to find a doctor who could successfully diagnose and treat her daughter. Marie had refused to give up on her daughter. How could anyone possibly believe that she was trying to kill her?

32:23 You know, the defense attorneys are just doing their job there, but it's pretty horrible, like the implication that maybe Carol did this to herself. And I think, you know, back then, it was like homosexuality was like a mental illness or something. You know, a lot of people felt that way about it. So was it I mean, it was a ute. I mean, I guess it wasn't accepted, right. Yeah, it was changing, but it was still not quite where it is today. Forensic experts testified about the timeline of the poisoning of Frank and Carroll based on their hair samples. As we mentioned earlier, arsenic remains in the hair of poisoning victims, and the hair can be used as a rough timeline. The length of hair containing arsenic provides a rough measure of the duration of the poisoning. Will any gaps show when the poisoning was interrupted, and the amount of poison in each segment of hair shows how intense the poisoning was.

33:13 Based on this, Carol had received lighter doses at first for a period of two to four months, than heavier doses for another two to four months. In Frank's case, there were significant doses of arsenic given over a long period of time, with a massive dose near the end. That's so interesting, it really is. I kind of wonder if Marie was trying to kill Carol or if she just wanted her sick so that she could take care of her and you know, act like a heroic mom and get attention and things like that. So I don't know, I wonder. It seems like the doses did get bigger towards the end though, so probably she was trying to kill her. That's interesting to speculate about. Yeah, I'm glad Carol didn't.

33:55 Get a haircut, you know, I had never thought of that. Well, no, it sounds like six months, you know, with the record of her hair. Yeah, if she had shaved her head or cut it really short, we never would have We never would have had that evidence. An official from Liberty National Life Insurance provided details of Marie's life insurance purchases and payments to help establish the financial motive for the crimes, but the shocking motive for Marie's attempted murder of her own daughter was revealed by the final witness for the prosecution. Priscilla Lange, had been Marie's cellmate in Anniston after she was captured and awaiting trial. She testified that Marie admitted to poisoning her husband and daughter.

34:35 The reason she poisoned her daughter, Priscilla said, because her daughter was a lesbian. Priscilla also claimed the reason Marie poisoned her husband was because he was sticking up for their daughter and taking her side. Marie couldn't handle that. Priscilla said she received nothing in exchange for her testimony, and she just wanted the truth to come out. Do you believe Priscilla? I have no reason not to believe her. In his testimony, Mike gave support to the idea that Marie was troubled that her daughter was apparently a lesbian. He said that one of the first questions she asked him after three years of being on the run was quote, is Carol still a homosexual? The jury just took three hours to come back with their verdict. They found Marie guilty of murder in the first degree and guilty of attempted murder. Members of the jury later told reporters that their first straw pole was unanimous in favor of guilt.

35:28 Marie was sentenced to life in prison for their murder charge and an additional sentence of twenty years for the charge of attempted murder. Asked if she would like to speak, Marie simply said, quote, I still maintain my innocence. Leaving the court room, Marie caught her daughter's eye and mouth the words I love you as she was taken away. Are you surprised that the jury found her guilty? No, I'm a little I'm not surprised surprised, but there really wasn't a ton of evidence tying it directly to it, so it was a tough case. But I don't know who else would have done it. Really, it was the information about like the whole Twin story admissible. I don't know, but I would suspect. Probably not, because it was really during her time when she was on the run. It didn't really relate to the crime itself.

36:14 I guess, but I'm not sure. It's a good question. You might think that this long saga is over, but it's not quite over yet. On June ninth, nineteen eighty three, Marie was taken to Julia S. Tuttweiler State Women's Prison in Wootumpka, Alabama, to serve her sentence. She was a model prisoner, earning the trust of guards and the warden. By her second year, she started doing secretarial work in the warden's office and attained what is called special trustee status, which provides special privileges for prisoners in exchange for their work. Surprisingly, Marie could possibly be eligible for parole as early as nineteen ninety, a thought which terrified both Mike and Carol.

36:56 While both kept in touch with their mom in prison, neither wanted to see her free again. They both felt like they had helped convict her, and they worried that she might seek vengeance. John Holman stayed in Aniston, getting a job as a tool maker with a small manufacturing company. He made the one hundred and eighty mile round trip to the prison every other Sunday when visitors were allowed. When a reporter asked John about his unwavering loyalty to Marie, he said, quote, this is all about just one thing. It's a four letter word that a lot of people don't like to hear. The word is love. She's the best thing that ever happened to me. She's never done anything to harm me. Unquote. I think people are fine with hearing, you know.

37:38 It's that controversial. While Marie seemed like the model prisoner to many, others had a different story. There were reports that she was plotting an escape. One guard told the warden she talks constantly of escape. The warden spoke to Marie, who was able to convince her that people were telling lies. She had no intention of trying to escape. Marie's classification was soon reduced to medium security. Soon after that, she petitioned to have it reduced to minimum security. This request was denied based on Marie's past as a fugitive from justice, but a year later it was somehow approved. Being on minimum security meant that Marie was eligible to leave the prison for outings with other inmates, occasionally accompanied by guards what the heck. In the summer of nineteen eighty six, another guard reported that Marie had talked of escaping during one of her outings. Again, Marie convinced the warden that she was a victim of lies and slander. In December nineteen eighty six, Marie wrote a letter to the warden asking to be reclassified once again, this time as a selected inmate, which meant that she would be allowed to leave the prison for up to eight hours at a time without an escort. What this is mind blowing? The warden approved, saying I'm counting on you not to let me downe.

38:59 Was she a complete charmer? I think she must have been. Yeah. I think she was very good with words and very good at telling people what they wanted to hear. You would think a prison worded would know when they were being manipulated. You would hope you would think that. After completing her eight hour leave and returning, Marie wrote to the warden, quote, I have a lot to gain by handling this privilege the right way, and everything to lose if I don't, so you have no cause to worry about my letting you down unquote. A couple months later, after completing several eight hour leaves, Marie was granted the next level of trust. She would be allowed out on a three day furlough. What the heck this is?

39:39 The story is so crazy, The whole thing is so crazy, But it just keeps getting crazier. Where does a prisoner go for three. Days wherever they want to? I'm assuming they can't leave the state, but I'm sure they could do whatever. They just go stay with her relative. Probably, Yeah, Like did she need like a relative to vouch for her? I don't think so. I think she had to well I'll talk about it. Oh, I guess her husband would come get her. Well, her husband was going to be with her, But she also had to notify the sheriff of the like whatever town she was staying in, she had to let them know, Hey, I'm here, I'm out on a three day furlough. But other than that, I think she was free to do what she wanted in those three days. I just think murderers should stay in jail. Yeah, especially murderers who went on the run for three years.

40:23 On February nineteenth, nineteen eighty seven, John Holman picked Marie up at the prison and the two drove to Anniston. Marie called the Anniston Sheriff's office to let them know that she was there, which, as I mentioned, was a condition of her furlough. She and John stayed at a hotel in laid Low, going out for walks in the evening. Marie didn't attempt to contact Carol, Mike, or any other friends or relatives in the area. On Sunday, the twenty second, Marie was due back to the prison by four pm. That morning, She told John she wanted to go alone to visit the graves of her parents. She said she would meet him at the waffle house for breakfast at ten am. She never showed up. So in the nineteen eighties there probably were not inkle monitors, right.

41:06 I guess not. That's a good point, though, I mean that would have been a given if. All right, right, that would make more sense. Yeah, none, I off, it makes sense, but yeah, that would have made sense. John sat waiting for her at the waffle house until finally he realized she wasn't coming. He went back to the hotel, where he found a note from Marie under his pillow. It said, quote, Dear John, I hope you will be able to forgive me I'm getting ready to leave. It will be best for everybody will be together again. Please give me an hour to get out of town. Destroy this note unquote. Maybe she's going to come back as a triplet.

41:47 I wouldn't be surprised. John immediately called the police once again. Marie Hilly was a fugitive from justice and the search was back on the Sheriff's department immediately dispatched officers to check bus terminals, taxi companies, and the airport, but there was no sign of Marie. They questioned John, but it was apparent that she hadn't told him of her plans. He was as clueless as they were. Investigators contacted Mike and Carroll, and they had not heard from their mother. The DA was understandably outraged that Marie had been given a three day furlough given her past. The Alabama Commissioner of Prisons quickly announced an internal investigation into how the decision was made. This eventually resulted in updated rules for granting leaves and the warden was issued a letter of reprimand there was no sign of Marie for four days.

42:39 On Thursday afternoon, a woman named Sue Craft was heading toward her home in the north part of Anniston when she saw a person on the back porch behind her neighbor's house. It was a woman on her knees messing around with the door handle. It looked like she was trying to break in. Sue called the police, who came and found the woman collapsed near the door. There was a chilly rizzle that day. Her clothes were soaked through, she had mud on her face and hair, and her hands were blotchy, pink and purple. One of her shoes had come off. She was conscious, but her speech was slurred. The officer asked her name, and she just replied Cellars. She said that her car had broken down and she had walked then crawled to the spot where they found her, but then she lost consciousness. An ambulance was called. Lieutenant Gary Carroll was also called to meet the ambulance at the hospital and identify whether the person was Marie. As she was being carried in on a stretcher, he briefly removed her oxygen mask. She looked at him and then her eyes rolled back in her head as she lost consciousness again. Yes, he said, this is definitely Marie. She was suffering from hypothermia and had likely been out in the woods for at least twenty four to thirty six hours before she was found. Temperatures over the last few days had been cold, hovering just above freezing. On the way to the hospital, Marie had suffered a heart attack.

44:00 Doctors tried to revive her, but she was pronounced dead at five six pm. She was fifty three years old. Marie died just over a mile from her childhood home. Investigators speculated that she had walked along the abandoned railroad tracks heading out of downtown Aniston, but they had no idea where she was headed or what her plan was. She only walked about two miles and must have remained hiding out in the woods after that. With the cold, grizzly rain, and low overnight temperatures, she developed hypothermia. Hypothermia causes the blood vessels in the extremities to shut down over time in order to redirect blood to the vital organs. As the brain is deprived of blood, the victims become confused and irrational. The legs stop working, which caused Marie to crawl the last distance to the back porch where she was found. A heart attack can result from hypothermia, as the heart can develop rapid irregular palpitations. Marie was buried in the grave next to the husband she had murdered, in a plot that she and Frank had purchased long ago.

45:05 It was kind of odd, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Frank would not have chosen that, but uh, that was just the way it was. I think it's interesting that even though she was, you know, near death, in a diminished state, she was still able to lie and say her name was Sellers. Yeah, it was. It was kind of a core to Maurice Dna. I guess to lie. If I murdered you, would you want me buried next to you? No, I'd rather not. Really, like all the good years we've had together and just one moment, one moment I poisoned. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna say no to that. Well, we'll see about that. I hope we won't. For some reason, John Homan decided to stay in Aniston even after Marie's death. People wondered why he stayed when he was so closely associated with Anniston's most notorious resident. He seemed to believe that Marie's death was part of a conspiracy to cover up the true facts of her case, and he was staying in Aniston until he got the answers he was looking for. Sadly, John met with a violent end in October nineteen eighty nine, two and a half years after Marie, in the lobby of the hotel he had been staying at since coming to Aniston, the Heart of Aniston. In he was trying to calm down a disgruntled tenant who shot him in the throat. John was forty two years old. Lieutenant Gary Carroll, who had spent so much time pursuing Marie, arrived at the scene. He said, quote, this sounds stupid, but when I went in there and I saw the sheet, I knew who it was. I can't explain it unquote.

46:38 That's I didn't know he was that much younger than Marie. I know. Actually it's funny because it never really came up in the research I did, and until the end, when I saw his age, I was like, oh, like twelve thirteen years younger, maybe yeah, even more. In nineteen ninety one, a lifetime made for TV dramatization of Marie's story was released, called Wife, Mother Murderer. It starred Judith Lyte, best known for her role. Oh No, She's Nine and Who's the Boss? What, is best known for One Life to Live Karen Okay. I didn't know her for that, but I did know her from Who's the Boss. She is an amazing actress. Well. She played Marie, and David Ogden Steers, best known for Mash, played John Homan. Here's a short scene from the movie after the women of Central Screw are first introduced to Terry Martin. What the hell is she doing?

47:26 What? Who that woman? It's not any Terry Martin. That's Robbie. What are you talking about? Robbie's dead. You're crazy? What is that woman up to? What's he up to? How could he be? That? Stupid Maggie? She's an identical twin. I saw show once on Twins and you. Couldn't tell that's Robbie. I know it is. Let me see that obituary again. Fine. Movies from the nineteen eighties just hit differently, don't they. They did, remember when they're like there were movies all like remember the Movie of the Week and Dating Myself here, but like the Sunday Movie of the Week, Monday movie, like what happened to all those great movies.

48:15 I don't know. They're probably still out there somewhere. Great in parentheses, Yeah. Michael Hilly ended up living in Jacksonville, Florida, with his family. Over the years, he has declined most interview requests, saying he has done with all that. His friends told him he should write a book about his mother's case, and he did end up writing a six hundred page manuscript, but as of twenty seventeen, at least the manuscript was still sitting in his closet. Let's buy the rights and kill publishing. He said that if he ever did publish the book, he would dedicate it to Carol, saying, quote she went through more than anybody else. It shows an incredible strength and persistence of character that she is still standing unquote.

48:56 Years later. Reflecting on her mother, Carol said, quote, just something wasn't right about her. She lied about everything, even about little stuff that just didn't matter at all. After regaining her health, Carol took a job at the Anniston Army Depot, a US Army maintenance center and munition's storage site. She worked there for nearly thirty years before retiring in twenty eleven. Rest in peace, Frank Hilly and any other victims of Marie's Again, we'll never know really if there were other people that may have died because of her poisoning or got sick, So rest in peace, Frank. Well, if he wouldn't have been exhumed, you know, she wouldn't have been convicted.

49:37 Yeah, they never, never would have known. So a few questions for you. One, I find John Homan to be one of the more interesting characters in this story, So I'm curious to know what you think of John. Do you think he had any inkling that maybe Terry was the same person as Robbie if and also, I guess if you were John, would you have stood by Marie after you found out about what she did? People believe what they want to believe. I don't remember much of his background, but was he lonely? He was? I think that was a key part of it. Is he'd come from a wealthy family, but then he was estranged from pretty much all of his siblings. He didn't have a lot of friends, and I think Marie must have picked up on this that he was lonely and he would be a good person for her to like latch Onto because he didn't have a big network of people around him.

50:27 He'd be a good mark. Isn't that the word, a mark? Yes, that is the word. So you find him interesting because he was so loyal to Marie. Partly because of his loyalty, but partly I question whether he really did believe her or not, Like maybe in his heart of hearts he was like, yeah, this is the same person, but I'm just gonna let it. I'm just gonna let it go or whatever. Well, people are different, and you're I don't think you're cynical at all, but I think you're a thinker. Some people just kind of would rather accept people for who they are, And if I could be that way more, I think it might be a more pleasant way to go through life. Probably. Yeah. Do you think that if Marie had just kept her Robbie Hannon identity that and continued leading a quiet life in New Hampshire with John, that she would have been able to just continue evading the law forever?

51:18 I don't know. Probably. Well, maybe, I mean the time is different too, Like in twenty twenty four, it's harder to get away with yes for so many reasons. Sure, so today she wouldn't be able to get through you get away with that. And one thing I read is that so when she was on the run, she worked at Central Screw for like almost nine months, and then she left, and then she came back worked there again for another almost nine months. And one of the things the author of the book that I read for this case pointed out is that nine months is about the period of time when, like at least back then, when you would register like Social Security taxes and all this stuff, so things would kick in at about nine months. That would make it harder for you not to get found out, like if you were using a social layer had to Yeah, something about they have to.

52:08 I noticed that that you said a couple of times in part two. I think it was like nine months after nine she laughed or whatever. Yeah, So there was some speculation that maybe she knew that and left the job intentionally. But at the same time, I mean, yeah, she no one really suspected anything. I think if she had just laid low and continued on with her life, she probably could have done it for a long time without getting caught. So where can we watch wife Mother Murderer? I believe you can find it on YouTube. I was seriously. Yeah, I did not watch the whole thing, but we'll. Watch it tonight. It is out there. Clear your schedule, all right, all right, So arsenic played an important role in the story, and it was in the form of some sort of mouse poison.

52:50 Right. Well, yeah, we may not know everything that she used to poison, but we do know that she had this liquid rat. Poison is still available on the market. No, I think I ask only because I yeah, I'm just curious. I'm not looking to. Get some No, I don't believe rat poison today has arsenic in it. I believe that has been I thought that and case, Yeah, we do have arsenic in our water though, in case you were looking at Yeah. Actually we need to get our water tested again, don't wa it's been a while. Yeah, we do, but we have we have an actual thing that filters out the arsenic from our groundwater. So we have multiple filtration systems, right, but we're still supposed to get our water testing. It's actually bad in our area, which you know isn't good. Do you think women are treated differently in prison? I think I guess there's different levels of prisons, but a lot of times.

53:47 I think Marie was treated differently just because she was really good at manipulating people. I don't think it was because she was a woman, but maybe that plays a part into it. I should mention. My main source for this case was a book by Philip Ginsberg called Poison into Blood, a true story of murder, passion, and an astonishing hoax. Super well researched book, very thorough. It was like six hundred and some pages, yeah, which was very long. There have actually been multiple books written about Marie Hilly, but I wasn't able to find the others that I knew about because they're older, libraries don't have them anymore. But that was a really, really good one. Well, you did a great job telling the story. Very interesting story. I have kind of a funny story about posing as someone else. Okay, my college roommate, we were just really goofy and we like to play pranks on our floor where we lived, right and one night I think we went to the Jewel Asco I think it was the Jewel Asco and bought hair dye and she had like this beautiful, like very light blood hair, like really pretty hair, and we decided to bite temporary hair dye black hair dye and dyed her hair. But it was supposed to be temporary hair dye. You know where this is going, and it wasn't temporary. And she was like a cheerleader, and she had pictures the next day

55:19 or in a couple of days, and when she went to watch well first, you know, we posed as her cousin, like oh, you know, yeah, and we introduced her to everyone. How did that work out? Did people by it? I think a couple of people did, but it was ridiculous and people knew that we were ridiculous, and so she you know, tried to wash it out. She couldn't get it out. She was so upset. I remember like crying, and we tried everything we could. Yeah, you can laugh about it now, but I yeah, it was pretty traumatic at the time. We're used like tied, tried to use everything we could to get it out of her hair. Nothing, and then she ended up going to the beauty salon, and I think she had to go to a couple of different beauty salons and they had to like strip it out of her hair and eventually it was fine, but it was a costly mistake.

56:12 That's really funny. I thought you were gonna say she was gonna go get a wig that looked like her. I guess she could have done a lot. But yeah, but it was supposed to be temporary hair dye. But if you ever used temporary hair dye, be careful. Tried to you tried to do a practical joke, and the joke ended up on your friend. Yeah, I was, I was, I was, Okay, it's really funny. On a totally unrelated note, I was in Chicago and I had had a dinner at a very fancy restaurant. Part it was a work event, very fun. It was very It was called Maple and Ash just in case you ever want to check it out. Really enjoyed it. Nice restaurant, Yes, I enjoyed it a lot, except. It was at nicer than like Panda Express, where I would.

56:55 Yes, just slightly better than Panda Express. But I like the experience, except for I went to the restroom and when I opened the door to the restroom, I had the experience that I dread whenever I'm in a fancy place. There is a guy standing there, a bathroom attendant, and you know, I get done. I mean, you need to help in the bathroom. Yeah, right, So I get done, go to the bathroom, and of course he hands me a towel and they're sitting on the counter. Is a basket with money in it? What kind of towel like a paper towel? No, it was a owel, like a cloth towel to drive my hand. Is it unique to you or does he have like. Yes, I think they took each towel after they were used and put them in a basket. But there's like a basket of money, and the basket has like twenty dollars bills and ten dollar bills in it, and like, you know, you have to tip this person and.

57:44 That doesn't happen at pandics. No exactly. So it's just it's such a weird situation that you feel like you have to tip this person because they hand you a towel when you could, you know, very easily do that yourself. I gave him two dollars, which even that I find two dollars for someone to towel is a lot, But I did it. Did you enjoy the towel or was there a special soap? It was okay, but I feel like coln, but he didn't give me any cologne or mints or anything like that. Oh, I would expect him expect a mint. Yeah, but I you know, I tipped him partly because I just feel bad, like that can't be a fun job standing in the restroom for hours at a time while people come in and do their business. I mean, we wouldn't enjoy that, would you.

58:26 No? But sometimes I think it's the restaurant. It's not necessarily a restaurant employee. It's someone that the restaurant allows us to come in and offer those services. Right, Well, you should go to a women's restroom in that situation because it's you know, there's lipstick and makeup and there's just like a whole like anything you could possibly want. Products Is that tip? Is that typical in a nice place? I don't know, what I know. We don't take me to Panda go to. Swanky restaurants very often, but yeah, that does happen in women's rooms. I've read about it. You're so funny. I don't think we're cheap people, but in general, the tipping culture has been kind of driving us crazy. I don't think. I don't think we're the only ones. Yeah, I want everyone to earn a fair wage, but it's like when the person cashes you out right and you have two items and they flip their little screen around.

59:21 I'm always like, and the default is like twenty percent or eighteen percent, and if you want to go lower than that, you have to put in a custom tip or something. Really and it's the holiday season and it's really hard because you don't have cash or I usually don't have much cash. And I did notice the other day the Salvation Army bucket has like a QR code on it. Now. Yeah, and it's hard because no one knows that we give. We give a lot of money to charities from the podcast and personally, and you know, it's hard, like if people are like, oh, do you want to make a donation to Saint Jude Children's Research Hospital, And I don't want to like take the time to be like, well, you know, we're probably going to be making a pretty sizable day, you know. But it's so it makes me really uncomfortable because I like to be generous and I like to have you know, it's so important, especially this time of year. But yeah, I don't like to be cheap.

1:00:11 But I also it makes. Me just makes you feel guilty. Yeah, one more reminder that we are selling our Love Mary Kill unique merchandise and we are donating fifty percent of the profits to Think. Jude Children's Medical Research Hospital. Yeah. I think I think you nailed us. And you can find our merch at merch dot Lovemarykill dot com. One more thing before we go, if you send us a Christmas card, I will send you one back. We used to send out Christmas cards a lot, and we haven't in a long time, and I kind of miss getting Christmas cards. So if you send a Christmas card to l mkpod Po Box one one one Dexter, Michigan four eight one three zero, I'll send you one back.

1:00:58 Oh that would be really cool to get some Christmas cards from our listeners. Yeah, that'll make me really happy. Thank you all so much for listening, for hanging out with us, for your friendship and your support. We appreciate it so so much. We truly do. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. Absolutely. If you have a time now, you screen me up.