Dec. 2, 2024

Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 3 of 3

Marie and Frank Hilley - Part 3 of 3
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Marie and Frank Hilley seemed to be living the American dream in their hometown of Anniston, Alabama. They met while still in school and had two kids. Frank was moving up at the foundry where he worked, and Marie brought in extra income as an executive secretary. But, in the mid-seventies, trouble started finding the Hilley family. Unexplained illnesses, arson, nuisance calls, money problems, extortion, and more. It would take years for the mystery to unravel.

Today's snack: Eli's cheesecake and Jay's Hot Stuff potato chips

Merch available at: merch.lovemarrykill.com

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty

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years of.

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Marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary.

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Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich?

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How are you?

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I'm great? How are you?

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I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to being done with

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Marie Hilly forever.

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I would absolutely like to tie this up with a

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bow and get rid of it.

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Yeah, fascinating story, but I've had enough of Marie.

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Yeah.

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I think our audience probably has.

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Two probably so so do you think our opening is

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too flippant?

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You know, I've always kind of thought that, to be

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honest with you, but I don't see us changing it now.

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I think if you've listened to our podcast long enough,

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you know that we try our best to be empathetic

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and have an we advocate for victims, and but yeah,

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I mean, and our closing I think is a little

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flippant too.

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But we had a comment on Spotify that somebody said

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they loved everything about us, but they think the opening

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is too flippant. And I think we've we've debated that

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when we started, but we've been doing it for two

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years now, so probably not going to change.

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How about our theme song?

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Though, Oh you want to go there again?

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You know I don't even listen to this podcast, so

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I guess if I were a listener, I would probably

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message you every week, please change your theme song, Please

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change your theme. But I don't listen to it. So

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I just listen to other podcasts, and their theme songs

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are like boppy and you.

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Don't believe you're going to go here again.

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I know I should give up because every time I

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say this, people are like, I love your music.

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So I don't.

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Anyway, thank you so much for hanging out with us

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and putting up with us. And I'm sure you don't

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love everything about us, because we don't even love everything

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about us.

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But anyway, so I have a snack for you. I

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don't have a song for.

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Work and a knife. Yeah crazy, you know, no song.

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I have no song.

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Well you killed it in episodes one and two.

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Well, I was just in Chicago, so I brought back

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my hometown from your hometown of Chicago. I have a

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bad feeling most of the snack is going to go

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to waste because I think you're the only one in

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the house, Who will really eat this? And I know

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you're trying to eat fewer. It might be cheese cheese

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cake from Eli's Sheese Kids, and I couldn't just buy

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a slice I had Holy moly, I had to buy

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the best of Eli's very crample to me. So yeah,

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it's got well it's got original plane chocolate truffle, apple crumble,

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and raspberry swirl all in the same package.

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That was very kind of you.

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For myself, I bought these Jays potato chesh you get

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the cheesecake.

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So I used to work in a grocery store, like

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like when my whole youth, I worked in a grocery store,

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so these products are both very familiar to I guess

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I didn't. I haven't even thought of Jay's in like

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twenty five years. But yeah, that was a huge They

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used to come in like a cardboard box and there

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were two bags enclosed. Anyone from the Chicago area probably

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knows what I'm talking about, but it was a very

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specific like box like it.

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Really Yeah, so I wanted to get you missus Fishers,

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but I didn't find those.

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So anyway, if anyone out there in Rockford, Rockford, Illinois

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is listening, missus Fishers were just a family staple for

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me growing up, and like my mom would hide them,

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my dad would hide them, and they were kind of

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like I think that's why I liked them so much, because,

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like you know, the kids weren't really allowed to have

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them or whatever, but then they took the transfer. I

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haven't had them since actually, but yeah, they were they

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and you were mixed on them whenever we would go

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back to Rockford. But yeah, all right, so thank you

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so much.

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All right, let's have some cheesecake. You're gonna have a piece, No, not,

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probably not. I'll bite though.

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Okay, what a trooper?

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Did you enjoy your Eli's cheesecake?

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I just had one small bite. Yeah, it's delicious. Not

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as good as probably Cheesecake Factory. Cheesecake Factory is just

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the top tier and it always is so decad in

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because it has Reese's peanut butter cups or oreos or whatever.

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But that was great. Thank you so much.

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I'm not a cheesecake connoissewer, but I would have thought

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Eli's was probably a better cheesecake than Cheesecake Factory. I don't,

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but I really don't.

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I am not very refined as.

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You know I bought that at the Jewel Osco.

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I mean, yeah, of course you did. Did you buy

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it in Chicago or in Indiana?

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In Chicago? Yeah, it was right near at my hotel.

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And how about the Jay's hot stuff the table are

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really good. I've never had those before and I liked him.

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Yeah. Ten out of ten for boat snacks, Thank you

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so much. Some ladies get flowers, I get cheesecake. And

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you also were very sweet and brought some Garretts popcorn

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back to I did. Yeah, what a guy. Before we

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jump into part three of mariney Hilly, we still we

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have our merch sale going on, and to see that,

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go to merch.

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Dot Lovemarykill dot com. Hopefully that will work and redirect

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you to our store. But we're keeping the store open

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until December tenth. We had a couple of issues trying

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to get it up there, so we're extending the time

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a little bit. Fifty percent of the proceeds from our

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merch sale will go to Saint Jude Children's Research Hospital.

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Would you like to give us a quick recap before

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we get into part three.

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Absolutely. If you haven't listened to parts one and two,

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go do that. In part two, Marie's family finally realized

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she might have poisoned her husband Frank, her daughter Carol,

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but also possibly several other people. They figured it out

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just in time for poor Carol, who had been very

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sick for months. Marie was arrested for attempted murder of

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her daughter, while Frank's body was exhumed to see whether

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he had died of arsenic poisoning as well, and testing

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confirmed that he did. But before the testing was complete, Marie,

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who was out on bail, vanished. She adopted a new identity,

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Robbie Hannon. She got married to a man named John Holman,

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and they moved from Florida to New Hampshire. They were

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living a quiet life, but then Marie left. John went

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to Texas, then back to Florida and decided to kill

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off her Robbie Hannon persona and became Robbie's twin sister

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Terry Martin. I forgot about that. When we ended part two.

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Terry had called John to let him know that his

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wife was dead and that she was coming to New

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Hampshire to meet John and support him in his grief.

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This is where the story just goes off the rails.

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Oh no, now, it goes off the rails.

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Yes.

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Interesting. How do you think John felt when he found

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out that there was another twin? Was he like, was

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she the evil twin? Or are you the evil twin?

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I think we're gonna We're gonna find out it did

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a few minutes here. How he felt about that?

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How would you feel if there was another Tina? If

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you got rid of Tina, oh, and then Trina called

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you a wow?

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In some ways it would be like, oh, I lost

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my beautiful, lovely wife Tina. But then there's somebody else

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coming in to take her place that's exactly the same.

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So you know, I know think twins are exactly the same.

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Well, in Marie's case, I think they were pretty much.

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Her voice is exactly the same. It is wild.

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When John picked up Terry at the airport, he must

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have been struck by how much she looked like his

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dead wife Robbie. But there were differences. Terry's hair was blonde,

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she was a bit thinner, and her personality was more

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flashy and outgoing than her sister. After she arrived, Terry

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and John went together to the office of the Keen

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Sentinel newspaper and wrote up an obituary for Robbie Homan,

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which was published the next day. Terry wanted John to

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show her around the town. She wanted to know how

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her sister had lived, where she had worked, who she

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had been friends with. John took her to Central Screw.

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That was where Robbie had lived.

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That's really brave of.

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Her, incredibly brazen. Terry had called them earlier to relay

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the sad news about her sister's death. When she and

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John showed up at Central Screw, it caused quite a

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stir Some people were convinced that it was Robbie, while

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others noted that this woman was clearly different. She was

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thinner and her face had a different shape.

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You talked a little bit in the last episode about

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her Marie and her coworkers, and so they got along

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for the most part well.

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When she first started at Central Screw, everyone really liked

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her and they were fascinated by her story because she

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was from out of town and she talked about all

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this wealth. But they kind of soured down her pretty quickly,

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like they found that she was full of herself. She

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wanted to be the center of attention. She did have

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one good friend there, though, and that was Claudia. So

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when John and Terry went there, Terry asked if she

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could speak to Claudia because she said her sister had

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talked about Claudia and how they were good friends. When

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Claudia saw Terry, she broke down crying because just the

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likeness was too much. Claudia even noticed that Terry was

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wearing one of Robbie's ski jackets and also carrying the

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same purse that Robbie had used to carry, but she

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also she had no doubts though, that this woman was

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not Robbie Homan. Terry told everyone that Robbie had donated

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her body to the Texas Medical Research Center. There had

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been no funeral or no memorial service. Terry told people

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that she was divorced and that she had flown in

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from Dallas. She said there was nothing keeping her in Dallas,

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so she was planning to stay in New Hampshire for

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a while. After Terry and John left the Central Screw Office,

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a fierce debate started among the staff. While most believed

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her story. After all, Robbie had been sick with this

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rare blood disease, they all knew about it, and she

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had spoken frequently of her twin sister when she worked there,

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but others thought the whole thing was an elaborate prank

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or a hoax of some sort. One employee, Sandy, was

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especially adamant. She said to her co workers, bullshit, that's

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Robbie took Terry into his workplace and told his boss

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that he would need some time off to grieve over

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the loss of his wife. His boss was sympathetic, but

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at the same time thought, man, this guy's pretty lucky.

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His wife dies and she has an identical twin that

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basically comes to take her place.

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I mean, a twin isn't the same person. It's not

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like she's a clone. She's you know, they're different people.

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But obviously in this case they're not.

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I know, it's a crazy story, but yeah, in general,

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in normal circumstances, I would say, just replacing someone with

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their twin is not the same thing. Terry stayed with

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John at his little house. At first, John slept on

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the couch while Terry slept in his bed, but within

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a few weeks the relationship became intimate. What the thing,

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I wonder and.

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I bet it's the same thing I'm thinking about.

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Go ahead, Well, we'll never know. But John just didn't

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seem to realize that this was the same person. But

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I would think when they got intimate with each other.

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Why your boobs are exactly the same?

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Just yeah, everything would just be the same.

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Yeah.

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John and his brother Peter hadn't spoken since their falling

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out a few years earlier, but when Peter heard the

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news about Robbie's death, he thought maybe there was an

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opportunity for them to repair their relationship. He drove over

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to John's house. Terry answered the door. Peter, who didn't

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know about Robbie's twin, was in shock. He blurted out,

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I thought you were dead. Terry explained to him that

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she wasn't Robbie, she was Robbie's twin. She invited him in,

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and the three of them sat and talked. Peter could

241
00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.799
tell that his brother was genuinely upset over losing his wife.

242
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The brothers left on good terms, with plans to get

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00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.159
together again soon. When Peter's wife met Terry, she was

244
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struck by the differences in Terry's personality compared to Robbie's.

245
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.320
Terry was more interested in being active than Robbie had been.

246
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.960
Terry was eager to try cross country skiing, while Robbie

247
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.600
had no interest in it. They did both share a

248
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love of reading. But Terry smoked a lot more than

249
00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:02.679
Robbie had, she watched more TV, and she seemed less

250
00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:07.480
interested in housekeeping. It's really interesting that Marie made these

251
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.919
changes in her personality just to try to make it

252
00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:12.919
seem like she was a different person, and a lot

253
00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:13.639
of people bought it.

254
00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:15.960
Yeah, if I come back as a twin, my twin

255
00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:18.080
definitely is not going to be cooking and cleaning.

256
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:23.120
So John continued showing Terry around town, introducing her to

257
00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.600
the places and people that her sister had known. Everywhere

258
00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:29.840
she went, people mistook her for Robbie, and she gently

259
00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:33.200
corrected them. Terry decided if she was going to stay,

260
00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.720
she should get a job. She went to the same

261
00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.679
employment agency that had placed her sister. While Terry's work

262
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:42.600
experience was a bit different from her sisters, she also

263
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:47.279
had excellent secretarial skills. Coincidentally, her shorthand speed was similar

264
00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.519
can ask about shorthand, although her typing was a bit slower.

265
00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.799
The agency found her a job at book Press, a

266
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:58.279
book printing company in Brattleboro, Vermont, thirty three miles from Marlowe.

267
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.039
She would be the executives secretary to the VP of Sales.

268
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:06.159
Terry and John settled into a similar routine as Robbie

269
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.919
and John. They would drive into town in the morning

270
00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.600
and have breakfast at the Friendly's restaurant most mornings. Then

271
00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.759
John would head to work, while Terry would head to

272
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.080
the bus station and take the bus to Brattleborough. In

273
00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.000
the evening, John would pick her up again at the

274
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.440
bus station. Several people who had known Robbie and now

275
00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:27.080
got to know Terry had doubts about Terry's identity, but

276
00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:29.639
for the most part, people accepted her as the sister

277
00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.480
of the woman that they had known. For his part,

278
00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.039
John never seemed to doubt that this was a different

279
00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.320
person than his wife. He did express some doubts about

280
00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:43.000
some details of both Terry and Robbie's stories. Robbie had talked,

281
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.559
if you remember about her inheritance, that she was going

282
00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:49.320
to go and claim this inheritance that her husband had

283
00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.960
left her, but it never seemed to happen. John confided

284
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.159
in a friend once that he wasn't sure whether there

285
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.200
actually was an inheritance, but it didn't matter to him.

286
00:13:58.360 --> 00:13:59.919
They didn't need money to be happy.

287
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.799
I'd be interested if any twins knew Marie and if

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00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:07.960
they were like no, you know what I mean, Like,

289
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.679
I feel like twins would be like no, no, twins

290
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.720
don't identical. Twins don't even look identify right, have scars

291
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:16.399
or moles or freckles or whatever.

292
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:16.799
Yep.

293
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.799
After the initial uproar caused by Terry's visit to Central Screw,

294
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.240
things seemed to have calmed down a bit. In the office.

295
00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:27.519
Everyone saw Robbie's obituary and that seemed to be the

296
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:31.039
end of it. But Sandy, the employee who had called

297
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.360
the story bullshit, wasn't about to let it drop. She

298
00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.879
kept talking with others in the office until there ended

299
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.679
up being two distinctive teams. One team that believed Robbie

300
00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.120
had died and Terry was her twin sister, and another

301
00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:47.200
that thought the whole story was some sort of bizarre hoax.

302
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:51.679
Terry and Robbie were clearly the same person. Did she

303
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.159
have any pictures of them together? Well, obviously she didn't.

304
00:14:54.200 --> 00:15:00.519
Never mind that a stupid question, but too, could she

305
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:02.159
have doctored a picture? I guess is what I was

306
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:09.000
thinking back in those days. Yeah, Claudia, I'm not going

307
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.320
to take that out because I think it's funny people

308
00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:15.480
will let up about it. Claudia, who had been Robbie's

309
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.080
best friend in the office, was firmly in the Robbie

310
00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.840
is dead camp. She was upset that her co workers

311
00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.279
couldn't accept it and kept stirring things up. The ladies

312
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.559
on the Robbie and Terrier the same person team, decided

313
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.960
to start making some phone calls. There was a bit

314
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.399
of information in the obituary that they could try to verify.

315
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.840
There was Robbie's residence Tyler, Texas, the mention of Robbie's

316
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.960
body being donated to the Medical Research in the Institute

317
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.240
in Dallas, and that Robbie had been a member of

318
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.120
the Sacred Heart Church in Tyler. The women started making

319
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:50.039
calls to see if there was indeed a medical Research

320
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:53.919
institute there and found nothing, and there didn't seem to

321
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.600
be a Sacred Heart Church in Tyler either. Sandy called

322
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.639
Directory Assistance to see if there was any listing for

323
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.159
Terry Martin or Robbie Holman and Tyler, there were a

324
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.720
couple of Terry Martin's. Sandy called them and both confirmed

325
00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.600
they were different people. There seemed to be no record

326
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:14.840
of either woman around Tyler. That's so interesting that these

327
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:19.159
women were so invested and it wasn't easy then to

328
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.320
you know, you had to use your Yellow Pages and

329
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.840
use directory assistance. The Internet didn't exist.

330
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.279
So wow, yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. So funny.

331
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.120
John and Terry invited Claudia out for dinner with them

332
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:33.240
one night. Claudia went anxious for the opportunity to observe

333
00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.159
Terry at close range. Doubts were starting to creep in

334
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.320
for Claudia as well. Claudia had an old friend, Tommy Dale,

335
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.480
who was a police officer in Keen, New Hampshire. She

336
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.960
told him about this mystery and that everyone was talking

337
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:49.519
about it at work, and he was intrigued. He suggested

338
00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:51.600
that she write to the coroner in Texas and ask

339
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.360
for a copy of Robbie's death report. She could also

340
00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:58.120
check with the Bureau of Vital Statistics in Texas. Claudia

341
00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.679
planned to follow up, but ended up putting it out

342
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.399
of her mind. She was honestly sick of the whole

343
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.119
thing and wanted to forget about it. Bob White ran

344
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.200
a new stand near the bus station in Keene. He

345
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.319
had known Robbie, and now we got to know Terry

346
00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.559
as she came in often while waiting for her boss

347
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:18.000
to her job in Rattleborough. He refused to believe that

348
00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.400
they were two different women. One day, Bob Hardy, a

349
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.599
senior detective with the Keen Police Department, stopped into the

350
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.960
news stand. White told Hardy the story of this woman

351
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.839
who was supposedly the twin of another woman who had

352
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.000
supposedly died. He said the whole thing was fishy. He

353
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.880
told the detective quote, I don't know what's going on,

354
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.640
but I'd bet there's some hanky pinky there. I don't

355
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.759
know if that's the correct usage of the word hanky

356
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.519
pinky there. The story made Hardy curious enough to follow up.

357
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.240
White told him that he knew Claudia Brooks had been

358
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.519
good friends with Robbie and that might be a good

359
00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.880
place to start. Hardy decided to pay a visit to Claudia.

360
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.279
Claudia told Detective Hardy that Terry and John had breakfast

361
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.680
at Friendly's mornings, so the detective asked if she could

362
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.240
go with him and surreptitiously point Terry out to him.

363
00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.680
She agreed. After Hardy got a glimpse of Terry, he

364
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.440
started doing some digging. He got a copy of the

365
00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:16.400
obituary and called the Bureau of Records and Statistics in Austin, Texas.

366
00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.920
They found no record of someone named Robbie Homan. He

367
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.480
also found there was no such place as the Medical

368
00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.759
Research Institute in Dallas. His first thought was that Terry

369
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.880
slash Robbie must be involved in some kind of tax evasion.

370
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.240
That was a common reason for someone to change their identity.

371
00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.079
He called the IRS, who promised to look into it.

372
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.880
Hardy also called up the New Hampshire State Police. His

373
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.279
jurisdiction only covered Keen, while Terry and John lived in Marlowe.

374
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.759
He asked the state police to send someone out to

375
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.319
interview some of their neighbors.

376
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.400
It's kind of interesting that the police are, I mean,

377
00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.079
they really have no evidence that any crime has taken place.

378
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.920
They just have bad because I don't. It's not illegal

379
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.240
to move somewhere and change your.

380
00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:59.480
Name, right exactly. But it is interesting they all took

381
00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.920
everyone took such an interest in this that they were

382
00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.640
just wanted to research it.

383
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:06.559
As the officers talked, one theory that came up was

384
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.039
that John and Terry were somehow connected to the manning

385
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.799
help me out with that name Lavassar Gang. Tom Manning

386
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.400
and Raymond Luke Levassar were the founders of a radical

387
00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:22.839
Marxist domestic terrorist group called the United Freedom Front. The

388
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.200
group had been responsible for a series of at least

389
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.160
ten armed robberies and twenty bombings of corporate offices, courthouses,

390
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.640
and military facilities in the New England area. They had

391
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:36.000
also been connected to the murder of a New Jersey

392
00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:39.720
state trooper a year before. Some of the gang had

393
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:42.000
been captured, but there was a reward out for the

394
00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:44.880
remaining six or so members of the group. One of

395
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.000
the fugitives was Tom Manning's wife, Carol, whose description was

396
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:53.160
somewhat similar to Terry Martin and John Holman seemed consistent

397
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.119
with the description of Raymond Lavassar, who was also still

398
00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.240
at large. Lavassar was considered our and highly dangerous, so

399
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.519
the officer set about trying to surreptitiously observed John and

400
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.960
Terry without tipping them off. They asked both John and

401
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.440
Terry's employers to allow them into their offices, posing as

402
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.440
customers to get a better look at the couple. While

403
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:16.839
there were some resemblance, it was clear that John and

404
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.319
Terry were not Raymond and Carroll, so the Manning Levaster

405
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:24.720
angle was eliminated. One day, while writing the bus to Brattleborough,

406
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.759
Terry struck up a conversation with a fellow writer, Salie Tomlinson.

407
00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.799
Sally mentioned that she normally drove to her job at Brattleborough,

408
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:34.799
but once in a while she needed to take the

409
00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.920
bus when her husband needed the car. Terry asked, would

410
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.039
you be interested in having a writer? She offered help

411
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.880
by paying for gas. Sally agreed, so the two started

412
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.839
commuting together most days. Terry talked a lot during their rides,

413
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.960
telling Sally about her past, her sister who had died,

414
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.920
her inheritance, and so on. Yet first, Sally enjoyed their talks,

415
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.240
but over time she started getting a bad feeling about

416
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.400
Terry Martin. She couldn't put her finger on it, but

417
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:03.119
Terry made her uncomfortable.

418
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.000
There was one story I read where Terry brought cookies

419
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.240
one day and she was bringing them to her office

420
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.319
and she offered one to Sally, and Sally she didn't

421
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:14.359
know why, but she was just like, had this gut

422
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.200
feeling and she was like, no, I don't I don't

423
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:19.319
want to eat that cookie, which was probably really very

424
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:20.400
intuitive on her part.

425
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:21.920
Oh are you foreshadowing? No?

426
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.000
I don't think the cookies were probably poisoned, but it

427
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:30.319
was just interesting that Sally had this vibe. Yeah. Meanwhile,

428
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.400
the New Hampshire State Police and Detective Hardy of the

429
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.240
Keen Police were still digging. They now involved the Vermont

430
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.960
State Police because Terry was working in Vermont. They asked

431
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.960
the Vermont State Police to check Vermont tax records for

432
00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.400
Terry Martin's birth date and social Security number, and to

433
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.359
run a routine fugitive check. Again, no trace of Terry

434
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:55.119
Martin or Robbie Homan was found. The officers got together

435
00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.200
and discussed the case. They really had nothing on this woman,

436
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.160
whoever she was. There was no evidence she had done

437
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.960
anything illegal, even if she was using and assumed identity.

438
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.519
This whole thing had really just started out of curiosity.

439
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.960
After all, maybe they should just drop it. They decided

440
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.000
the only thing left to do would be to approach

441
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:16.039
Terry and ask her to talk. She wasn't obligated to

442
00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:18.960
speak with them, but it was worth a try. They

443
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.920
decided to drive over to Book Press in Brattleborough and

444
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.599
wait for Terry to emerge from work on a chilly

445
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.400
January day in nineteen eighty three, Sally Tomlinson pulled into

446
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.920
the book Press parking lot around four o'clock to pick

447
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.599
up Terry Martin. Normally Sally picked Terry up later than that,

448
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.119
but there was some snow in the forecast, so she

449
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:39.920
had called Terry to see if she could get off

450
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.799
a bit early. As Sally pulled up to the curb

451
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.599
to wait for Terry, she noticed a car parked nearby

452
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.160
with four big men in it. It seemed like they

453
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:50.839
were staring at her. It made her uncomfortable. What were

454
00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:53.880
they doing there? Terry opened the front door and came

455
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.920
out of the book Press office. As soon as she did,

456
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.039
Sally saw the men get out of the car they

457
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:01.559
had been sitting in. She had a brief thought that

458
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.839
maybe these were mafia guys. As we mentioned, she had

459
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.359
grown uneasy around Terry. Was she mixed up in something bad?

460
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.680
Sally locked her door. As the men got closer to

461
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.960
her car, one of the men spoke to Terry. Briefly.

462
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:18.160
Sally saw him pull something out of his pocket. It

463
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:20.960
was a badge. She could just make out the FBI

464
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:25.000
letters on it. Terry walked over to Sally's car. As

465
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:28.039
Sally rolled down the window, Terry said, I've got a ride.

466
00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:31.519
I'll see you later. Sally was shaken up, not sure

467
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:34.640
of what she had just witnessed, she drove off, deciding

468
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.799
to call the Brattleborough Police Department the next morning. Meanwhile,

469
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.079
the officers who had picked Terry up had no idea

470
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.880
who they had in their custody. They just asked if

471
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:45.839
she would come to the police station to answer a

472
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:49.240
few questions, and she agreed. On the way to the station,

473
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.279
one of the officers said, we understand that Terry Martin

474
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.039
isn't your real name. Marie calmly answered that's right. When

475
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.160
they got to the station, they asked her real name.

476
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.640
She answered Audrey Marie Hilly. It was not a name

477
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.759
they recognized. She told them that she was wanted in

478
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.119
Alabama for passing some bad checks and that she had

479
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.119
been using the name Terry Martin for about three months.

480
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.079
When they ran the check on the name Audrey Marie Hilly,

481
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.480
they were surprised to find that she was wanted not

482
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.680
only for passing bad checks, but also for murder and

483
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.759
attempted murder. Not only that, but she had been a

484
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:26.960
fugitive from justice for more than three years by this point.

485
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.000
They came back to her and asked, are you sure

486
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.119
there isn't anything else you might be wanted for. Marie said, quote, well,

487
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.559
the police down there accused me of poisoning my daughter.

488
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.920
That's so ridiculous. Why would I do that to my

489
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:43.200
own daughter? Unquote. The officers read Marie her rights and

490
00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:45.960
placed her under arrest. She said she was willing to

491
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.319
talk without a lawyer. She told them she was relieved

492
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.599
to finally be caught. It was exhausting keeping track of

493
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:58.119
her new identities and invented autobiographies. She told the officers

494
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.680
that John didn't know anything about her past. Asked she

495
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:02.799
begged them to leave him out of the whole affair,

496
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.440
but obviously they would have to call him and question him.

497
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:07.839
They said, we can bring him in and we would

498
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:10.440
allow you to speak with him. She said, quote, I've

499
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.480
already heard him enough. I don't want to hurt him

500
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.319
anymore unquote.

501
00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:15.680
Was John in love with Terry?

502
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.319
I think he was at that point. Yeah. I think

503
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.160
they had been together, and you know, I'm sure he

504
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.079
saw her as very similar to her sister and fell

505
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.960
in love with her just like he had with Robbie.

506
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.240
They asked Marie to call John up and ask him

507
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:32.079
to come into the police station. She didn't say why.

508
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.480
He assumed that maybe she had been in an accident.

509
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:39.000
When John showed up, the officers pulled him aside. They asked,

510
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:42.279
did he know someone named Audrey Marie Hilly. No, he

511
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.079
said he had never heard that name. Then they told

512
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.240
him that Robbie Holman and Terry Martin were the same person.

513
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:51.079
He said, quote, look, I don't know where you get

514
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.440
your information, but it's just wrong. I lived with the

515
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.039
woman and now I live with her sister. Unquote, They said, John,

516
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.200
were not making this up. She told us everything. Not

517
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.960
only that, but her real name is Audrey Marie Hilly

518
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.680
and she's wanted in Alabama for murder. John sat in

519
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.160
stunned silence. All he could say was I lived with her.

520
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.839
It can't be. They could tell that his disbelief was genuine. Finally,

521
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.400
they said he was free to go, But what about

522
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.119
my wife? He said? Can I see her? They were

523
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:23.559
surprised that he still wanted to see her after learning

524
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.160
the truth, but he did. I wonder if he thought, like,

525
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.839
for a moment, oh, I thought my wife was dead

526
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.079
and now it turns out she's not actually dead. So

527
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:34.119
maybe he felt like this sense of relief that his

528
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:35.319
wife hadn't actually died.

529
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:36.119
Yeah.

530
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.599
Do you think then Marie would be like, I can't

531
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:40.960
believe you cheated on me.

532
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:46.559
With my sister. Oh gosh, so complicated. They took John

533
00:26:46.599 --> 00:26:48.880
down the hall to the room where Marie was sitting.

534
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.000
She asked, did they tell you, John? He said, yes,

535
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:54.799
they did. She asked if he could do her a

536
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.920
favor and bring her some clothes before they parted ways forever.

537
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:01.240
John said, quote, wait, wait a minute, it's not quite

538
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:05.319
as simple as that. Did you do it? Unquote? She replied,

539
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.960
of course not. John said, then I'm not going anywhere.

540
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.000
I love you, dummy. I have to get the best

541
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:12.200
defense I can for you.

542
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.359
Oh you say, I love you, dummy me all the

543
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:14.839
time too.

544
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:19.279
John kept his word. He stood by Marie through everything

545
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.920
that was still to come. He later told a friend

546
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:25.480
that Robbie Slash Terry slash Marie had only wanted two

547
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.759
things when they were together, a committed relationship filled with

548
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:32.359
love and his own happiness. It was her concern for

549
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.440
him that led to her capture. He said, quote, we

550
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.599
had three basically wonderful years. She's the best thing that

551
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.880
ever happened to me. Unquote. He refused to believe that

552
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:44.000
she could have done what she was accused of doing

553
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.319
in Alabama. We'll be back after a break.

554
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:57.200
The prosecution began preparing their case, but they knew it

555
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.119
would not be an easy one. Frank's murder was eight

556
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.160
years passed by this point, and Carroll's attempted murder was

557
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.559
nearly four years old. Witnesses and memories faded, records would

558
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:10.160
be difficult to find, and it was difficult to find

559
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:13.640
a motive. There was money, certainly, with the insurance policies,

560
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.440
but even that was difficult because of the bad checks.

561
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.319
The policy on Carroll had lapsed and wouldn't be paid

562
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.160
out anyway. And how could they convince a jury that

563
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.240
a woman would kill her own daughter. There was no

564
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.720
smoking gun and no murder weapon. All they had regarding

565
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.480
Frank's case was Freeda's word that Frank had told her

566
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:34.960
about Marie giving him injections, and it wasn't even certain

567
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.960
that would be allowed as evidence, since it would be

568
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.359
considered hearsay. In Carroll's case, they had more to go on,

569
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.599
since Carol could testify, but Carroll was still conflicted and

570
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.119
her feelings towards her mother. After Marie was captured, she

571
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.279
wrote Carol a long letter which seemed designed to manipulate

572
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:54.839
Carroll's feelings. In it, she wrote, quote, I'm afraid I

573
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.559
wasn't fair to you when you were growing up. I

574
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.960
loved Mike, but you were so very special, and I

575
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.799
I'm afraid I was too protective of you. I thought

576
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.160
there couldn't ever have been a baby as beautiful and

577
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:09.160
perfect as you. End quote. She said that after Frank died,

578
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.960
that her mother died and then Mike moved away. Quote

579
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.640
I realized that somewhere along the way, you had sort

580
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.960
of moved into your own world, and I felt more

581
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.599
alone than I've ever felt. I didn't know how to

582
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.079
reach you, and I realize now that I held on

583
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.119
too tightly. I know I've cried a million tears these

584
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.799
past three years. I wanted to see you and talk

585
00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:30.480
to you so bad, but I was afraid to try

586
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.680
to contact you. I considered suicide very seriously several times,

587
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:37.279
and I knew if I didn't do that, someday I

588
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:39.880
might see you again and you would love me. But

589
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.440
if I was dead, and you ever needed me, I

590
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:46.759
wouldn't be there. It's so manipulative when people use suicide

591
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:51.480
as a weapon. Yeah, Carol replied, quote, Mom, the letter

592
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.240
you wrote me means a lot. I will keep it forever.

593
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:55.680
Oh boy.

594
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.680
She told her mom that she still loved her and

595
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:00.279
she was happy to hear from her. Despite her love

596
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.839
for her mom, Carol did cooperate with prosecutors, providing details

597
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:09.039
of her ordeal. Many observers speculated that Marie may plead insanity.

598
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.400
In a rare move, the prosecution headed this off by

599
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.880
requesting a psychiatric exam themselves. Usually this was something the

600
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.160
defense did, but in this case, the prosecution wanted to

601
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:23.599
put the idea to bed right away. After an extensive

602
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:28.599
interview with Marie, an independent psychiatrist and psychologists both determined

603
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.319
that she was able to understand the charges against her.

604
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.039
For their part, the defense strategy was to provide reasonable

605
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:38.599
doubt by suggesting that perhaps Freda had poisoned her brother

606
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.599
and her niece. She had access to both of them,

607
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.119
and maybe the rat poisons she claimed to have found

608
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.359
among Marie's things was made up. The courtroom was packed

609
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.000
with over four hundred observers as The trial was set

610
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:54.400
to start in Aniston in June nineteen eighty three. So

611
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:57.480
I guess people have been true crime bands for a

612
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:57.920
long time.

613
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.559
This was Anniston's not a big city, and this was

614
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.680
like just such a major story over the course.

615
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.240
It's a huge courtroom too, though, Yeah, yeah, for sure,

616
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.319
courtrooms I think are smaller today. Perhaps surprisingly, Marie's defense

617
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:13.559
team hadn't requested a change of venue. The jury of

618
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.839
twelve men and two women, two being alternates, were set

619
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.119
to be sequestered at the Anniston Holiday Inn for the

620
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.480
duration of the trial. John Holman, who had spent all

621
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.920
of his remaining inheritance on Marie's defense, sad in support

622
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.400
of her throughout the trial, sometimes speaking with her during breaks.

623
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:33.319
In the proceedings, the prosecution carefully laid out the timeline

624
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.000
of Frank's illness and death, his exhumation, and the discovery

625
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.039
of arsenic among Marie's things. Carol took the stand to

626
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.759
tell the story of her illness, along with the injections

627
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:47.240
and other medicine given to her by her mother. The defense,

628
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.359
in addition to suggesting that Freedom might have poisoned her brother,

629
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.960
also pointed the finger at Carol, suggesting she might have

630
00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:00.640
intentionally poisoned herself. They said Carol had serious psychological issues drugs,

631
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.960
had engaged in homosexual activities, and had attempted suicide on

632
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.240
at least three occasions. Marie, on the other hand, was

633
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.440
doing everything possible to get her daughter help. She was

634
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.559
relentless in trying to find a doctor who could successfully

635
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.960
diagnose and treat her daughter. Marie had refused to give

636
00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:21.519
up on her daughter. How could anyone possibly believe that

637
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:22.720
she was trying to kill her?

638
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.240
You know, the defense attorneys are just doing their job there,

639
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:29.599
but it's pretty horrible, like the implication that maybe Carol

640
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:31.599
did this to herself. And I think, you know, back then,

641
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:35.480
it was like homosexuality was like a mental illness or something.

642
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.599
You know, a lot of people felt that way about it.

643
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.079
So was it I mean, it was a ute. I mean,

644
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:42.240
I guess it wasn't accepted, right.

645
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.839
Yeah, it was changing, but it was still not quite

646
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:45.640
where it is today.

647
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.640
Forensic experts testified about the timeline of the poisoning of

648
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.680
Frank and Carroll based on their hair samples. As we

649
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:56.079
mentioned earlier, arsenic remains in the hair of poisoning victims,

650
00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:58.680
and the hair can be used as a rough timeline.

651
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.279
The length of hair containing arsenic provides a rough measure

652
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:05.759
of the duration of the poisoning. Will any gaps show

653
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:09.039
when the poisoning was interrupted, and the amount of poison

654
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:12.599
in each segment of hair shows how intense the poisoning was.

655
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.480
Based on this, Carol had received lighter doses at first

656
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.759
for a period of two to four months, than heavier

657
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:23.359
doses for another two to four months. In Frank's case,

658
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.640
there were significant doses of arsenic given over a long

659
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.839
period of time, with a massive dose near the end.

660
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.000
That's so interesting, it really is.

661
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.000
I kind of wonder if Marie was trying to kill

662
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.920
Carol or if she just wanted her sick so that

663
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.480
she could take care of her and you know, act

664
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:44.079
like a heroic mom and get attention and things like that.

665
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.559
So I don't know, I wonder. It seems like the

666
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:50.279
doses did get bigger towards the end though, so probably

667
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:51.359
she was trying to kill her.

668
00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:55.599
That's interesting to speculate about. Yeah, I'm glad Carol didn't.

669
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:58.960
Get a haircut, you know, I had never thought of that.

670
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.799
Well, no, it sounds like six months, you know, with

671
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:03.839
the record of her hair.

672
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:05.640
Yeah, if she had shaved her head or cut it

673
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:07.920
really short, we never would have We never would have

674
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.639
had that evidence.

675
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:12.519
An official from Liberty National Life Insurance provided details of

676
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:16.079
Marie's life insurance purchases and payments to help establish the

677
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:19.440
financial motive for the crimes, but the shocking motive for

678
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.599
Marie's attempted murder of her own daughter was revealed by

679
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.920
the final witness for the prosecution. Priscilla Lange, had been

680
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:31.079
Marie's cellmate in Anniston after she was captured and awaiting trial.

681
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.960
She testified that Marie admitted to poisoning her husband and daughter.

682
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:38.800
The reason she poisoned her daughter, Priscilla said, because her

683
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:42.880
daughter was a lesbian. Priscilla also claimed the reason Marie

684
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.880
poisoned her husband was because he was sticking up for

685
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.480
their daughter and taking her side. Marie couldn't handle that.

686
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.880
Priscilla said she received nothing in exchange for her testimony,

687
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.760
and she just wanted the truth to come out. Do

688
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:56.599
you believe Priscilla?

689
00:34:57.719 --> 00:34:59.280
I have no reason not to believe her.

690
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.920
In his testimony, Mike gave support to the idea that

691
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.800
Marie was troubled that her daughter was apparently a lesbian.

692
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:08.599
He said that one of the first questions she asked

693
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.800
him after three years of being on the run was quote,

694
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:16.480
is Carol still a homosexual? The jury just took three

695
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:19.000
hours to come back with their verdict. They found Marie

696
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.199
guilty of murder in the first degree and guilty of

697
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:24.880
attempted murder. Members of the jury later told reporters that

698
00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:28.039
their first straw pole was unanimous in favor of guilt.

699
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.079
Marie was sentenced to life in prison for their murder

700
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:34.000
charge and an additional sentence of twenty years for the

701
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.480
charge of attempted murder. Asked if she would like to speak,

702
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:41.719
Marie simply said, quote, I still maintain my innocence. Leaving

703
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:44.079
the court room, Marie caught her daughter's eye and mouth

704
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.119
the words I love you as she was taken away.

705
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.039
Are you surprised that the jury found her guilty? No,

706
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.360
I'm a little I'm not surprised surprised, but there really

707
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:57.800
wasn't a ton of evidence tying it directly to it,

708
00:35:57.880 --> 00:35:59.840
so it was a tough case. But I don't know

709
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.079
who else would have done it.

710
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:03.480
Really, it was the information about like the whole Twin

711
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:04.760
story admissible.

712
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.880
I don't know, but I would suspect. Probably not, because

713
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:11.199
it was really during her time when she was on

714
00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:14.039
the run. It didn't really relate to the crime itself.

715
00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:16.079
I guess, but I'm not sure. It's a good question.

716
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.719
You might think that this long saga is over, but

717
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.880
it's not quite over yet. On June ninth, nineteen eighty three,

718
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.519
Marie was taken to Julia S. Tuttweiler State Women's Prison

719
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.320
in Wootumpka, Alabama, to serve her sentence. She was a

720
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.320
model prisoner, earning the trust of guards and the warden.

721
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.760
By her second year, she started doing secretarial work in

722
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:42.199
the warden's office and attained what is called special trustee status,

723
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:48.360
which provides special privileges for prisoners in exchange for their work. Surprisingly,

724
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:51.480
Marie could possibly be eligible for parole as early as

725
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:55.960
nineteen ninety, a thought which terrified both Mike and Carol.

726
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.239
While both kept in touch with their mom in prison,

727
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.360
neither wanted to see her free again. They both felt

728
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.880
like they had helped convict her, and they worried that

729
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:08.480
she might seek vengeance. John Holman stayed in Aniston, getting

730
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.559
a job as a tool maker with a small manufacturing company.

731
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.400
He made the one hundred and eighty mile round trip

732
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.280
to the prison every other Sunday when visitors were allowed.

733
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.400
When a reporter asked John about his unwavering loyalty to Marie,

734
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.440
he said, quote, this is all about just one thing.

735
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:26.480
It's a four letter word that a lot of people

736
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:29.679
don't like to hear. The word is love. She's the

737
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.039
best thing that ever happened to me. She's never done

738
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:33.840
anything to harm me. Unquote.

739
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.280
I think people are fine with hearing, you know.

740
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.800
It's that controversial. While Marie seemed like the model prisoner

741
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:45.480
to many, others had a different story. There were reports

742
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:48.519
that she was plotting an escape. One guard told the

743
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.840
warden she talks constantly of escape. The warden spoke to Marie,

744
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.599
who was able to convince her that people were telling lies.

745
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:00.119
She had no intention of trying to escape. Marie's classification

746
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:03.960
was soon reduced to medium security. Soon after that, she

747
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.079
petitioned to have it reduced to minimum security. This request

748
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:11.559
was denied based on Marie's past as a fugitive from justice,

749
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.079
but a year later it was somehow approved. Being on

750
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.159
minimum security meant that Marie was eligible to leave the

751
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.280
prison for outings with other inmates, occasionally accompanied by guards

752
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.159
what the heck. In the summer of nineteen eighty six,

753
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.360
another guard reported that Marie had talked of escaping during

754
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.760
one of her outings. Again, Marie convinced the warden that

755
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:36.400
she was a victim of lies and slander. In December

756
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.000
nineteen eighty six, Marie wrote a letter to the warden

757
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:42.519
asking to be reclassified once again, this time as a

758
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.639
selected inmate, which meant that she would be allowed to

759
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.760
leave the prison for up to eight hours at a

760
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:53.079
time without an escort. What this is mind blowing? The

761
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:57.159
warden approved, saying I'm counting on you not to let

762
00:38:57.159 --> 00:38:57.920
me downe.

763
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.320
Was she a complete charmer?

764
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:03.599
I think she must have been. Yeah. I think she

765
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.199
was very good with words and very good at telling

766
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:07.519
people what they wanted to hear.

767
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:09.960
You would think a prison worded would know when they

768
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:10.960
were being manipulated.

769
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:14.519
You would hope you would think that. After completing her

770
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.880
eight hour leave and returning, Marie wrote to the warden, quote,

771
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.559
I have a lot to gain by handling this privilege

772
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:22.920
the right way, and everything to lose if I don't,

773
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:25.639
so you have no cause to worry about my letting

774
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.880
you down unquote. A couple months later, after completing several

775
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.800
eight hour leaves, Marie was granted the next level of trust.

776
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.719
She would be allowed out on a three day furlough.

777
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:38.679
What the heck this is?

778
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:41.679
The story is so crazy, The whole thing is so crazy,

779
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:44.079
But it just keeps getting crazier.

780
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:45.880
Where does a prisoner go for three.

781
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.840
Days wherever they want to? I'm assuming they can't leave

782
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:51.519
the state, but I'm sure they could do whatever.

783
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.760
They just go stay with her relative. Probably, Yeah, Like

784
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.519
did she need like a relative to vouch for her?

785
00:39:57.159 --> 00:39:59.079
I don't think so. I think she had to well

786
00:39:59.119 --> 00:39:59.719
I'll talk about it.

787
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:01.599
Oh, I guess her husband would come get her.

788
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:03.679
Well, her husband was going to be with her, But

789
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.880
she also had to notify the sheriff of the like

790
00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:09.000
whatever town she was staying in, she had to let

791
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.239
them know, Hey, I'm here, I'm out on a three

792
00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:13.760
day furlough. But other than that, I think she was

793
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:16.119
free to do what she wanted in those three days.

794
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:19.159
I just think murderers should stay in jail.

795
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Yeah, especially murderers who went on the run for three years.

796
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.920
On February nineteenth, nineteen eighty seven, John Holman picked Marie

797
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.360
up at the prison and the two drove to Anniston.

798
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.800
Marie called the Anniston Sheriff's office to let them know

799
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:35.119
that she was there, which, as I mentioned, was a

800
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:38.320
condition of her furlough. She and John stayed at a

801
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.320
hotel in laid Low, going out for walks in the evening.

802
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.960
Marie didn't attempt to contact Carol, Mike, or any other

803
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.960
friends or relatives in the area. On Sunday, the twenty second,

804
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:51.599
Marie was due back to the prison by four pm.

805
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.519
That morning, She told John she wanted to go alone

806
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.239
to visit the graves of her parents. She said she

807
00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.400
would meet him at the waffle house for breakfast at

808
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.880
ten am. She never showed up.

809
00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:06.480
So in the nineteen eighties there probably were not inkle monitors, right.

810
00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.079
I guess not. That's a good point, though, I mean

811
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.559
that would have been a given if.

812
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:14.119
All right, right, that would make more sense.

813
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:17.000
Yeah, none, I off, it makes sense, but yeah, that

814
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.960
would have made sense. John sat waiting for her at

815
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:23.039
the waffle house until finally he realized she wasn't coming.

816
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.480
He went back to the hotel, where he found a

817
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:29.760
note from Marie under his pillow. It said, quote, Dear John,

818
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:32.519
I hope you will be able to forgive me I'm

819
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.599
getting ready to leave. It will be best for everybody

820
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.480
will be together again. Please give me an hour to

821
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.320
get out of town. Destroy this note unquote.

822
00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:43.800
Maybe she's going to come back as a triplet.

823
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:53.199
I wouldn't be surprised. John immediately called the police once again.

824
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:56.440
Marie Hilly was a fugitive from justice and the search

825
00:41:56.679 --> 00:42:01.000
was back on the Sheriff's department immediately dispatched officers to

826
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.360
check bus terminals, taxi companies, and the airport, but there

827
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.760
was no sign of Marie. They questioned John, but it

828
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.280
was apparent that she hadn't told him of her plans.

829
00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:14.239
He was as clueless as they were. Investigators contacted Mike

830
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:16.360
and Carroll, and they had not heard from their mother.

831
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.519
The DA was understandably outraged that Marie had been given

832
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:24.280
a three day furlough given her past. The Alabama Commissioner

833
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:27.719
of Prisons quickly announced an internal investigation into how the

834
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:31.840
decision was made. This eventually resulted in updated rules for

835
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.599
granting leaves and the warden was issued a letter of

836
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:38.400
reprimand there was no sign of Marie for four days.

837
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:42.480
On Thursday afternoon, a woman named Sue Craft was heading

838
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.920
toward her home in the north part of Anniston when

839
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.360
she saw a person on the back porch behind her

840
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.719
neighbor's house. It was a woman on her knees messing

841
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.159
around with the door handle. It looked like she was

842
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:56.360
trying to break in. Sue called the police, who came

843
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.440
and found the woman collapsed near the door. There was

844
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.679
a chilly rizzle that day. Her clothes were soaked through,

845
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:04.840
she had mud on her face and hair, and her

846
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.280
hands were blotchy, pink and purple. One of her shoes

847
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.719
had come off. She was conscious, but her speech was slurred.

848
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:15.360
The officer asked her name, and she just replied Cellars.

849
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:18.360
She said that her car had broken down and she

850
00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:21.360
had walked then crawled to the spot where they found her,

851
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:26.320
but then she lost consciousness. An ambulance was called. Lieutenant

852
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:28.880
Gary Carroll was also called to meet the ambulance at

853
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:33.079
the hospital and identify whether the person was Marie. As

854
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.320
she was being carried in on a stretcher, he briefly

855
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.519
removed her oxygen mask. She looked at him and then

856
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:40.480
her eyes rolled back in her head as she lost

857
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.360
consciousness again. Yes, he said, this is definitely Marie. She

858
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.199
was suffering from hypothermia and had likely been out in

859
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:50.639
the woods for at least twenty four to thirty six

860
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:54.039
hours before she was found. Temperatures over the last few

861
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.760
days had been cold, hovering just above freezing. On the

862
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:00.000
way to the hospital, Marie had suffered a heart attack.

863
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:03.559
Doctors tried to revive her, but she was pronounced dead

864
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:07.280
at five six pm. She was fifty three years old.

865
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.119
Marie died just over a mile from her childhood home.

866
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.320
Investigators speculated that she had walked along the abandoned railroad

867
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:18.199
tracks heading out of downtown Aniston, but they had no

868
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.719
idea where she was headed or what her plan was.

869
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.119
She only walked about two miles and must have remained

870
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:27.400
hiding out in the woods after that. With the cold,

871
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:32.639
grizzly rain, and low overnight temperatures, she developed hypothermia. Hypothermia

872
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:35.360
causes the blood vessels in the extremities to shut down

873
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:38.840
over time in order to redirect blood to the vital organs.

874
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:42.320
As the brain is deprived of blood, the victims become

875
00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:47.199
confused and irrational. The legs stop working, which caused Marie

876
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:49.800
to crawl the last distance to the back porch where

877
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:53.440
she was found. A heart attack can result from hypothermia,

878
00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:58.039
as the heart can develop rapid irregular palpitations. Marie was

879
00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:00.800
buried in the grave next to the husband she had murdered,

880
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.039
in a plot that she and Frank had purchased long ago.

881
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.480
It was kind of odd, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, I'm

882
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:11.719
sure Frank would not have chosen that, but uh, that

883
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:12.719
was just the way it was.

884
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.599
I think it's interesting that even though she was, you know,

885
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:20.639
near death, in a diminished state, she was still able

886
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.599
to lie and say her name was Sellers.

887
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.360
Yeah, it was. It was kind of a core to

888
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:27.320
Maurice Dna. I guess to lie.

889
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:29.679
If I murdered you, would you want me buried next

890
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:29.880
to you?

891
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:31.960
No, I'd rather not.

892
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:35.800
Really, like all the good years we've had together and

893
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.199
just one moment, one moment I poisoned.

894
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:41.519
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna say no to that.

895
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:43.920
Well, we'll see about that.

896
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:48.519
I hope we won't. For some reason, John Homan decided

897
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:52.000
to stay in Aniston even after Marie's death. People wondered

898
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:54.760
why he stayed when he was so closely associated with

899
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.039
Anniston's most notorious resident. He seemed to believe that Marie's

900
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.280
death was part of a conspiracy to cover up the

901
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.440
true facts of her case, and he was staying in

902
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:07.920
Aniston until he got the answers he was looking for. Sadly,

903
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:11.239
John met with a violent end in October nineteen eighty nine,

904
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:14.599
two and a half years after Marie, in the lobby

905
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:16.719
of the hotel he had been staying at since coming

906
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:19.880
to Aniston, the Heart of Aniston. In he was trying

907
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.559
to calm down a disgruntled tenant who shot him in

908
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:27.159
the throat. John was forty two years old. Lieutenant Gary Carroll,

909
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:29.960
who had spent so much time pursuing Marie, arrived at

910
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:33.199
the scene. He said, quote, this sounds stupid, but when

911
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:34.920
I went in there and I saw the sheet, I

912
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.920
knew who it was. I can't explain it unquote.

913
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:40.719
That's I didn't know he was that much younger than Marie.

914
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:41.039
I know.

915
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.039
Actually it's funny because it never really came up in

916
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:45.400
the research I did, and until the end, when I

917
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:48.440
saw his age, I was like, oh, like twelve thirteen

918
00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:52.360
years younger, maybe yeah, even more. In nineteen ninety one,

919
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:56.320
a lifetime made for TV dramatization of Marie's story was released,

920
00:46:56.440 --> 00:47:00.599
called Wife, Mother Murderer. It starred Judith Lyte, best known

921
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:01.360
for her role.

922
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.519
Oh No, She's Nine and Who's the Boss? What, is

923
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:07.840
best known for One Life to Live Karen Okay.

924
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:09.559
I didn't know her for that, but I did know

925
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:10.599
her from Who's the Boss.

926
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.079
She is an amazing actress.

927
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:15.440
Well. She played Marie, and David Ogden Steers, best known

928
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:19.199
for Mash, played John Homan. Here's a short scene from

929
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:21.840
the movie after the women of Central Screw are first

930
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:26.159
introduced to Terry Martin. What the hell is she doing?

931
00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:26.639
What?

932
00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:29.039
Who that woman?

933
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:33.639
It's not any Terry Martin. That's Robbie. What are you

934
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:39.480
talking about? Robbie's dead. You're crazy? What is that woman

935
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:45.079
up to? What's he up to? How could he be?

936
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:45.400
That?

937
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:49.800
Stupid Maggie? She's an identical twin. I saw show once

938
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:50.559
on Twins and you.

939
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:51.880
Couldn't tell that's Robbie.

940
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:53.119
I know it is.

941
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:55.840
Let me see that obituary again.

942
00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:04.800
Fine. Movies from the nineteen eighties just hit differently, don't they.

943
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:08.000
They did, remember when they're like there were movies all

944
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.920
like remember the Movie of the Week and Dating Myself here,

945
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:13.559
but like the Sunday Movie of the Week, Monday movie,

946
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.840
like what happened to all those great movies.

947
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:17.960
I don't know. They're probably still out there somewhere.

948
00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:21.199
Great in parentheses, Yeah.

949
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:24.800
Michael Hilly ended up living in Jacksonville, Florida, with his family.

950
00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:28.519
Over the years, he has declined most interview requests, saying

951
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.119
he has done with all that. His friends told him

952
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.239
he should write a book about his mother's case, and

953
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.840
he did end up writing a six hundred page manuscript,

954
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:39.920
but as of twenty seventeen, at least the manuscript was

955
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:41.239
still sitting in his closet.

956
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:44.239
Let's buy the rights and kill publishing.

957
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:46.519
He said that if he ever did publish the book,

958
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:49.199
he would dedicate it to Carol, saying, quote she went

959
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.519
through more than anybody else. It shows an incredible strength

960
00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:55.840
and persistence of character that she is still standing unquote.

961
00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:00.239
Years later. Reflecting on her mother, Carol said, quote, just

962
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:03.679
something wasn't right about her. She lied about everything, even

963
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:08.039
about little stuff that just didn't matter at all. After

964
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:10.760
regaining her health, Carol took a job at the Anniston

965
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.480
Army Depot, a US Army maintenance center and munition's storage site.

966
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:18.840
She worked there for nearly thirty years before retiring in

967
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:23.519
twenty eleven. Rest in peace, Frank Hilly and any other

968
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:26.400
victims of Marie's Again, we'll never know really if there

969
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:29.559
were other people that may have died because of her

970
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:32.800
poisoning or got sick, So rest in peace, Frank.

971
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:36.400
Well, if he wouldn't have been exhumed, you know, she

972
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:37.559
wouldn't have been convicted.

973
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.719
Yeah, they never, never would have known. So a few

974
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:44.280
questions for you. One, I find John Homan to be

975
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.320
one of the more interesting characters in this story, So

976
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:48.719
I'm curious to know what you think of John. Do

977
00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:51.960
you think he had any inkling that maybe Terry was

978
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:55.440
the same person as Robbie if and also, I guess

979
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.559
if you were John, would you have stood by Marie

980
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:01.199
after you found out about what she did?

981
00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:04.519
People believe what they want to believe. I don't remember

982
00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:06.679
much of his background, but was he lonely?

983
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:09.079
He was? I think that was a key part of it.

984
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.679
Is he'd come from a wealthy family, but then he

985
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.679
was estranged from pretty much all of his siblings. He

986
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:17.280
didn't have a lot of friends, and I think Marie

987
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:19.960
must have picked up on this that he was lonely

988
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.519
and he would be a good person for her to

989
00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:25.920
like latch Onto because he didn't have a big network

990
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:27.119
of people around him.

991
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.480
He'd be a good mark. Isn't that the word, a mark?

992
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:30.960
Yes, that is the word.

993
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:34.480
So you find him interesting because he was so loyal

994
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:35.239
to Marie.

995
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.239
Partly because of his loyalty, but partly I question whether

996
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:41.000
he really did believe her or not, Like maybe in

997
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:43.440
his heart of hearts he was like, yeah, this is

998
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:45.639
the same person, but I'm just gonna let it. I'm

999
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:47.000
just gonna let it go or whatever.

1000
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:51.480
Well, people are different, and you're I don't think you're

1001
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.440
cynical at all, but I think you're a thinker. Some

1002
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.800
people just kind of would rather accept people for who

1003
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.320
they are, And if I could be that way more,

1004
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:03.360
I think it might be a more pleasant way to

1005
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:04.400
go through life.

1006
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:08.079
Probably. Yeah. Do you think that if Marie had just

1007
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:12.239
kept her Robbie Hannon identity that and continued leading a

1008
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.039
quiet life in New Hampshire with John, that she would

1009
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.760
have been able to just continue evading the law forever?

1010
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:19.679
I don't know. Probably.

1011
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.599
Well, maybe, I mean the time is different too, Like

1012
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.880
in twenty twenty four, it's harder to get away with

1013
00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:30.599
yes for so many reasons. Sure, so today she wouldn't

1014
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:32.920
be able to get through you get away with that.

1015
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:34.760
And one thing I read is that so when she

1016
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:37.679
was on the run, she worked at Central Screw for

1017
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:40.119
like almost nine months, and then she left, and then

1018
00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:43.480
she came back worked there again for another almost nine months.

1019
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:45.599
And one of the things the author of the book

1020
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.599
that I read for this case pointed out is that

1021
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:51.400
nine months is about the period of time when, like

1022
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:56.079
at least back then, when you would register like Social

1023
00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:59.480
Security taxes and all this stuff, so things would kick

1024
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.440
in at about nine months. That would make it harder

1025
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:04.440
for you not to get found out, like if you

1026
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.960
were using a social layer had to Yeah, something about

1027
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:08.320
they have to.

1028
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:10.480
I noticed that that you said a couple of times

1029
00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:12.320
in part two. I think it was like nine months

1030
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.079
after nine she laughed or whatever.

1031
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:16.559
Yeah, So there was some speculation that maybe she knew

1032
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:21.079
that and left the job intentionally. But at the same time,

1033
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.679
I mean, yeah, she no one really suspected anything. I

1034
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.719
think if she had just laid low and continued on

1035
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:28.800
with her life, she probably could have done it for

1036
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:30.199
a long time without getting caught.

1037
00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:33.559
So where can we watch wife Mother Murderer?

1038
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:35.599
I believe you can find it on YouTube.

1039
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:36.920
I was seriously.

1040
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:40.320
Yeah, I did not watch the whole thing, but we'll.

1041
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:40.360
Watch it tonight.

1042
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:41.119
It is out there.

1043
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:45.400
Clear your schedule, all right, all right, So arsenic played

1044
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:48.400
an important role in the story, and it was in

1045
00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:50.639
the form of some sort of mouse poison.

1046
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:50.960
Right.

1047
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:55.039
Well, yeah, we may not know everything that she used

1048
00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:56.920
to poison, but we do know that she had this

1049
00:52:57.280 --> 00:52:58.719
liquid rat.

1050
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:02.440
Poison is still available on the market. No, I think

1051
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:06.400
I ask only because I yeah, I'm just curious. I'm

1052
00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:07.480
not looking to.

1053
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:11.519
Get some No, I don't believe rat poison today has

1054
00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:14.159
arsenic in it. I believe that has been I thought

1055
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:17.239
that and case, Yeah, we do have arsenic in our

1056
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:19.920
water though, in case you were looking at Yeah.

1057
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:21.719
Actually we need to get our water tested again, don't

1058
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:22.360
wa it's been a while.

1059
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.559
Yeah, we do, but we have we have an actual

1060
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.800
thing that filters out the arsenic from our groundwater.

1061
00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:32.000
So we have multiple filtration systems, right, but we're still

1062
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:34.400
supposed to get our water testing. It's actually bad in

1063
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:37.639
our area, which you know isn't good. Do you think

1064
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:43.519
women are treated differently in prison? I think I guess

1065
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:46.800
there's different levels of prisons, but a lot of times.

1066
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:49.880
I think Marie was treated differently just because she was

1067
00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:52.239
really good at manipulating people. I don't think it was

1068
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.639
because she was a woman, but maybe that plays a

1069
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.360
part into it. I should mention. My main source for

1070
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:00.000
this case was a book by Philip Ginsberg called Poison

1071
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:03.400
into Blood, a true story of murder, passion, and an

1072
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:07.599
astonishing hoax. Super well researched book, very thorough. It was

1073
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:10.320
like six hundred and some pages, yeah, which was very long.

1074
00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:13.039
There have actually been multiple books written about Marie Hilly,

1075
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:16.280
but I wasn't able to find the others that I

1076
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:20.000
knew about because they're older, libraries don't have them anymore.

1077
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:21.800
But that was a really, really good one.

1078
00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:23.719
Well, you did a great job telling the story. Very

1079
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:32.960
interesting story. I have kind of a funny story about

1080
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.199
posing as someone else. Okay, my college roommate, we were

1081
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.559
just really goofy and we like to play pranks on

1082
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:45.840
our floor where we lived, right and one night I

1083
00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:47.920
think we went to the Jewel Asco I think it

1084
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.880
was the Jewel Asco and bought hair dye and she

1085
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:55.920
had like this beautiful, like very light blood hair, like

1086
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:01.199
really pretty hair, and we decided to bite temporary hair

1087
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:06.760
dye black hair dye and dyed her hair. But it

1088
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:09.519
was supposed to be temporary hair dye. You know where

1089
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:14.920
this is going, and it wasn't temporary. And she was

1090
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:19.440
like a cheerleader, and she had pictures the next day

1091
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:21.840
or in a couple of days, and when she went

1092
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:24.800
to watch well first, you know, we posed as her cousin,

1093
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.880
like oh, you know, yeah, and we introduced her to everyone.

1094
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:32.519
How did that work out? Did people by it?

1095
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:35.719
I think a couple of people did, but it was

1096
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:41.320
ridiculous and people knew that we were ridiculous, and so

1097
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:43.840
she you know, tried to wash it out. She couldn't

1098
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.519
get it out. She was so upset. I remember like crying,

1099
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:50.519
and we tried everything we could. Yeah, you can laugh

1100
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:53.760
about it now, but I yeah, it was pretty traumatic

1101
00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:57.039
at the time. We're used like tied, tried to use

1102
00:55:57.079 --> 00:55:59.760
everything we could to get it out of her hair. Nothing,

1103
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:03.000
and then she ended up going to the beauty salon,

1104
00:56:03.559 --> 00:56:05.199
and I think she had to go to a couple

1105
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:07.440
of different beauty salons and they had to like strip

1106
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:09.920
it out of her hair and eventually it was fine,

1107
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:12.480
but it was a costly mistake.

1108
00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:14.320
That's really funny. I thought you were gonna say she

1109
00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.920
was gonna go get a wig that looked like her.

1110
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:19.239
I guess she could have done a lot. But yeah,

1111
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:21.320
but it was supposed to be temporary hair dye. But

1112
00:56:21.400 --> 00:56:24.480
if you ever used temporary hair dye, be careful.

1113
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:26.880
Tried to you tried to do a practical joke, and

1114
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:28.320
the joke ended up on your friend.

1115
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:34.320
Yeah, I was, I was, I was, Okay, it's really funny.

1116
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:38.559
On a totally unrelated note, I was in Chicago and

1117
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:41.800
I had had a dinner at a very fancy restaurant.

1118
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:44.440
Part it was a work event, very fun. It was

1119
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.599
very It was called Maple and Ash just in case

1120
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:47.719
you ever want to check it out.

1121
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:48.480
Really enjoyed it.

1122
00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:51.519
Nice restaurant, Yes, I enjoyed it a lot, except.

1123
00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:55.599
It was at nicer than like Panda Express, where I would.

1124
00:56:55.679 --> 00:57:00.079
Yes, just slightly better than Panda Express. But I like

1125
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:03.199
the experience, except for I went to the restroom and

1126
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:05.400
when I opened the door to the restroom, I had

1127
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.079
the experience that I dread whenever I'm in a fancy place.

1128
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:12.280
There is a guy standing there, a bathroom attendant, and

1129
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:13.920
you know, I get done.

1130
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:15.159
I mean, you need to help in the bathroom.

1131
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:17.440
Yeah, right, So I get done, go to the bathroom,

1132
00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:19.800
and of course he hands me a towel and they're

1133
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:22.400
sitting on the counter. Is a basket with money in it?

1134
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:24.400
What kind of towel like a paper towel?

1135
00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.800
No, it was a owel, like a cloth towel to

1136
00:57:26.840 --> 00:57:27.360
drive my hand.

1137
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:30.079
Is it unique to you or does he have like.

1138
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:32.639
Yes, I think they took each towel after they were

1139
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:34.840
used and put them in a basket. But there's like

1140
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:38.239
a basket of money, and the basket has like twenty

1141
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:41.039
dollars bills and ten dollar bills in it, and like,

1142
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:44.480
you know, you have to tip this person and.

1143
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:46.719
That doesn't happen at pandics.

1144
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:50.320
No exactly. So it's just it's such a weird situation

1145
00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:52.519
that you feel like you have to tip this person

1146
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:54.440
because they hand you a towel when you could, you know,

1147
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:56.719
very easily do that yourself. I gave him two dollars,

1148
00:57:56.719 --> 00:57:59.960
which even that I find two dollars for someone to

1149
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:03.159
towel is a lot, But I did it.

1150
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:06.119
Did you enjoy the towel or was there a special soap?

1151
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.679
It was okay, but I feel like coln, but he

1152
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:11.199
didn't give me any cologne or mints or anything like that.

1153
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:13.320
Oh, I would expect him expect a mint.

1154
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:16.360
Yeah, but I you know, I tipped him partly because

1155
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:18.599
I just feel bad, like that can't be a fun

1156
00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:21.360
job standing in the restroom for hours at a time

1157
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:23.679
while people come in and do their business. I mean,

1158
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:26.519
we wouldn't enjoy that, would you.

1159
00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:29.960
No? But sometimes I think it's the restaurant. It's not

1160
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:33.639
necessarily a restaurant employee. It's someone that the restaurant allows

1161
00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:35.920
us to come in and offer those services. Right, Well,

1162
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:39.000
you should go to a women's restroom in that situation

1163
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:41.800
because it's you know, there's lipstick and makeup and there's

1164
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:44.800
just like a whole like anything you could possibly want.

1165
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:48.079
Products Is that tip? Is that typical in a nice place?

1166
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:49.159
I don't know, what I know.

1167
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.639
We don't take me to Panda go to.

1168
00:58:52.719 --> 00:58:55.920
Swanky restaurants very often, but yeah, that does happen in

1169
00:58:55.960 --> 00:58:56.519
women's rooms.

1170
00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:59.960
I've read about it.

1171
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:02.000
You're so funny.

1172
00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:05.880
I don't think we're cheap people, but in general, the

1173
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.639
tipping culture has been kind of driving us crazy. I

1174
00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:11.000
don't think. I don't think we're the only ones. Yeah,

1175
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:14.480
I want everyone to earn a fair wage, but it's

1176
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:18.159
like when the person cashes you out right and you

1177
00:59:18.199 --> 00:59:21.440
have two items and they flip their little screen around.

1178
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:23.960
I'm always like, and the default is like twenty percent

1179
00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:25.960
or eighteen percent, and if you want to go lower

1180
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:28.440
than that, you have to put in a custom tip

1181
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:28.960
or something.

1182
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:32.440
Really and it's the holiday season and it's really hard

1183
00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:36.519
because you don't have cash or I usually don't have

1184
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:39.039
much cash. And I did notice the other day the

1185
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:41.800
Salvation Army bucket has like a QR code on it.

1186
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:42.039
Now.

1187
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:45.840
Yeah, and it's hard because no one knows that we give.

1188
00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:48.719
We give a lot of money to charities from the

1189
00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:52.679
podcast and personally, and you know, it's hard, like if

1190
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:53.920
people are like, oh, do you want to make a

1191
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:57.039
donation to Saint Jude Children's Research Hospital, And I don't

1192
00:59:57.039 --> 00:59:59.440
want to like take the time to be like, well,

1193
00:59:59.599 --> 01:00:01.599
you know, we're probably going to be making a pretty

1194
01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:04.480
sizable day, you know. But it's so it makes me

1195
01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:06.960
really uncomfortable because I like to be generous and I

1196
01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.000
like to have you know, it's so important, especially this

1197
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:11.760
time of year. But yeah, I don't like to be cheap.

1198
01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:13.400
But I also it makes.

1199
01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:14.800
Me just makes you feel guilty.

1200
01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:20.840
Yeah, one more reminder that we are selling our Love

1201
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:25.000
Mary Kill unique merchandise and we are donating fifty percent

1202
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:27.000
of the profits to Think.

1203
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:30.199
Jude Children's Medical Research Hospital. Yeah.

1204
01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:31.880
I think I think you nailed us.

1205
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:34.840
And you can find our merch at merch dot Lovemarykill

1206
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:35.840
dot com.

1207
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.920
One more thing before we go, if you send us

1208
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:41.320
a Christmas card, I will send you one back. We

1209
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:43.000
used to send out Christmas cards a lot, and we

1210
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:45.599
haven't in a long time, and I kind of miss

1211
01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:49.079
getting Christmas cards. So if you send a Christmas card

1212
01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:54.960
to l mkpod Po Box one one one Dexter, Michigan

1213
01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.840
four eight one three zero, I'll send you one back.

1214
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:01.079
Oh that would be really cool to get some Christmas

1215
01:01:01.159 --> 01:01:02.519
cards from our listeners.

1216
01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:05.760
Yeah, that'll make me really happy. Thank you all so

1217
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:07.840
much for listening, for hanging out with us, for your

1218
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:10.639
friendship and your support. We appreciate it so so much.

1219
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:11.440
We truly do.

1220
01:01:12.199 --> 01:01:14.800
Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill

1221
01:01:14.800 --> 01:02:03.639
your husband. Absolutely. If you have a time now, you

1222
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:04.280
screen me up.