Marlene and Michael Warren

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary kill. Hey, hey Rich, how are you? I'm good? How are you? I'm doing great, beautiful crisp fall day. Here it is another beautiful fall, pants and socks and a hoodie. It's chili, Yes, it is. Well. I normally wear some sort of pants, but I'm actually wearing like long pants.

0:41 I thought that was a little weird, Like I'm actually wearing pants. Yeah, you looked at me, funny. Yeah, you don't have colrophobia, do you? I don't, but our daughter does. And you know what colophobia is. Then I take it. Well, just because of context clues. I'm a sharp cookie. Because I've been talking about this case for weeks and I saying that it's about. Clown You keep talking about your clown race, and like. One, it's about a really evil clown. But that's what colorophobia is, the fear of clowns, and about I guess about five percent of the population has colorophobia. I would expect it to be significantly higher. Really well that five percent have colorophobia, but it is estimated that up to it could be over fifty percent of people at least have some fear of clowns, but maybe not full blown colorophobia. I'm sure you remember the summer picnic that we took our daughter to when she was how old was she one two?

1:34 I really don't remember that incident very clearly. I remember another incident, Oh. Really, I remember that. So my company had a summer picnic for all the families and we took our daughter. She was I can't remember, she must have been not even two, and they had a clown there and we had to leave early because she just. Must have been the start of it. And one time I took her to a birthday party. There's a local clown. Her name is Colors, the clown. I don't think you were there, but or is I'm not sure if she still is working. But the sweetest lady, just a cute little lady. And she had a pet, chinchilla, and she had all these like cute little pets that you could you could hold in your hands, and Emma loved pets, so yeah, but she hid behind the chair. Yeah, and I think me might have left early. I don't remember, but yeah, I totally get it. Clowns are weird.

2:22 They are where they could be very scary. This case is about a killer clown and it was a request from a listener of ours in South Florida, and the case actually takes place in South Florida. Unfortunately, I don't know the listener's name who requested it, because they requested it through our Google form, Okay, and they didn't put their name down. But I did want to thank whoever that listener is for the recommendation because it's a really fascinating case. And I did bring you a snack from Florida as well. Okay, Florida? Is it some alligator? No Florida. Well, their state pie is key lime pie. But I did not make you a key lime pie. But I got these cookie thins key lime pie flavored thin stairs. Okay, they look pretty interesting. Would you like to try them?

3:08 Well, if they were homemade, i'd try them. I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna just stain this. Okay, Well, I'm gonna try because they look really good. Be right back. How did you like my store bought cookie thin stairs? They're actually pretty good. I really like them. Actually, they smell really good. Yeah, smell really lamey. I'm not a big key lime flavor like. I don't love key lime pie. But those you ever had a key lime pie? I have tried a key lime pie once or twice, not often, but I've tried it. Just not a big fan of it. But I, like you, not a fan of like sour things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought those were good. I don't think I would seek them out to buy them. I think the thin stirs. I think that's a whole line. What would you rate them?

3:51 Probably a six and a half out of ten. Okay, I'd give them a seven and a half out of ten. So you just shared your document with me and I only see ninety eight grammatical errors. So good job. Ninety eight that's pretty good. I strive to keep it under one hundred. I use grammarly and I don't think you do. And grammarily like tells you how many errors that you have. On Youria, Because I am smarter than graal. That you used, you have ninety eight errors. The reason I'm roasting you is because I didn't realize that you are still posting bloopers occasionally or you're saving bloopers, so it's really unfair. Don't you save your own bloopers. You just always are roasting me, So I'm going to be roasting you every chance I get. So ninety eight, that's good.

4:36 I think last week is one hundred and fifty six. I don't often do bloopers, but somebody actually. Commented, because it's irresistible because. Somebody comment, and that's that. They said, I really missed the bloopers, and so I try to get back. And you just never make any mistakes, so they're always happening. Bit I don't make mestage. Okay, Well, do you want to jump into the case and tell us about Marlene and Michael Warren. Let's do that. Many people point to the evil clowns portrayed in fictional books and movies like Stephen King's It as the cause of their colorophobia, but the clown that showed up on the doorstep of Marlene Warren's home in her upscale neighborhood in Wellington, Florida, was all too real.

5:17 On a Saturday morning in May nineteen ninety, the first day of the long Memorial Day weekend, Marlene was making breakfast for her son and a couple of his friends who had stayed over when they saw a brightly dressed figure coming up the walkway. Marlene answered the door to find a person in a full clown costume, make up, red nose, and an orange wig, bearing a basket of flowers and two foil balloons. The last words that Marlene spoke were oh, how pretty, as the clown pulled out a handgun and calmly fired point blank at Marlene's face. That's horrible. It is incredibly horrible. No one who knew Marlene Warren could imagine anyone wanting to harm her. The investigation would answer that question pretty quickly, but getting justice that would be a different story. Marlene May McKinnon was born in nineteen fifty and grew up in a middle class household in Mount Clemmens, Michigan. She was the middle child of three sisters. Growing up, Marlene loved clowns, as did her mom, Shirley.

6:17 She had a clown themed bedroom for part of her childhood and even painted a picture of a clown that her mom kept forever. Even after Marlene was shot and killed by a person in a clown costume, Shirley still had a room full of clown art and collectibles. Years after Marlene was killed, Shirley said, quote, I don't hate clowns, I just hate one unquote. I was gonna mention this at the top when you started talking about clowns. But there was a weird period of time when clown decor was a thing. Mm hmm. Do you remember that? Yeah? I do. Actually, I think I had a couple of it were like Harleck when clowns and you would put them on a shelf or something. But yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem to happen much anymore, does it. No?

6:58 For good reason. Around age fourteen, Marlene met a guy named John Arens. By nineteen sixty eight, eighteen year old Marlene was married with two baby boys, John Aarons Junior, who was born in nineteen sixty six when Marlene was just fifteen, and Joe Aarons, was born two years later. Tragedy struck not long after Joe was born, when John Senior died in a car accident. At age nineteen, Marlene was a widow with two young boys. She wasn't single for long though. At twenty years old, she met eighteen year old Michael Warren. Michael Warren grew up in Roseville, Michigan. I don't know a lot about his upbringing, but people described him as a hard working, blue collar kind of guy, rough around the edges, but also a smooth talker, a natural born salesman.

7:47 People who later worked with Michael said that his passions in life were horse racing, steakhouses, and women. Eighteen when he met Marlene, he was energetic and ambitious, a real go getter. Marlene was instantly drawn to him, and the two were married within a couple of years. Soon after they married, Marlene and Michael decided to move to Florida to start a new life. Michael became a father figure to John Junior and Joe. Joe would later say that they had a good life and a happy family. People described Marlene as America's mom, always cheerful and smiling, loved by everyone. She would do anything for anyone without a second thought. When they moved to Palm Beach County, Florida in nineteen seventy two, Michael got a job with the Florida Department of Agriculture as a meat inspector. His father had been in the meat packing industry and had introduced Michael to the occupation at a young age. He worked hard and was eventually promoted to be an inspections supervisor.

8:45 By nineteen eighty four, while working for the Department of Agriculture, he started a side hustle buying and selling used cars. His bosses eventually realized he was buying and selling cars on company time and falsifying his time shep to make it seem like he was working more than he actually was. He resigned in late nineteen eighty four, claiming that he was framed by his managers. It didn't matter though. He was off and running in the world of automotive sales. He started a used car lot called Bargain Motors, specializing in selling cars to people with bad credit, and the business took off. As we said already, he was a natural born salesman, and it didn't hurt that he was willing to bend the rules. He would roll back odometers and whine and dine the ladies who worked at the DMV and sweet talk them in defudging vehicle inspection records.

9:37 It's weird now, I don't think there would be any way to roll back an odometer, but that was definitely a thing back in those days that car salesman would do right. I mean, I don't know how would you do that. You have to take the dashboard apart, and then you would manually change the miles. I don't know for sure, but yeah, I think it's fairly involved. Yeah. Michael got busted once in the early days of bargain motors for changing an odometer from forty nine thousand to twenty five thousand miles. He pleaded guilty and he had to pay a thousand dollars fine and he got eighteen months probation. Michael wasn't the only entrepreneur in the marriage. With the money they made from bargain motors, Marlene and Michael invested in rental properties, which Marlene managed. By nineteen ninety, she was managing seventeen mostly inexpensive rental properties in Palm Beach County, worth a total of one point one million dollars about two point six million dollars today. Marlene's son Joe said that his mom was a ball of energy with a natural entrepreneurial spirit. She was well organized both in managing her rental business and her family's home life.

10:44 She was good at her job, but she was also a bit of a softie. When a tenant got behind on their rent, Marlene was more inclined to help them out instead of evicting them. But she did have to evict tenants occasionally and it was hard on her. In fact, shortly before her death in nineteen ninety, she had made an appointment with a realtor to talk about selling the properties and getting out of the real estate business, but that meeting never happened. With their new found wealth, Marlene, Michael and the boys moved to the upscale village of Wellington, Florida, bordering the Everglades. Wellington is one of the wealthiest communities in Palm Beach County. Over the years, Wellington has had many famous residents Bruce Springsteen, Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg, Tommy Lee Jones, and Ja Jagaboord to name a few. And if that's not enough, Vanilla Ice even once lived in a swinky estate in Wellington.

11:37 I bet he doesn't anymore. Marlene and Michael moved into a new subdivision called Aero Club. It was a luxury community with a private golf course, a polo field, tennis courts, and a grass airstrip. The houses all had small airplane hangars facing their backyards. Well, this is fancy. Residents could tax their planes on a path between the houses out to the runway at the end of the street. While he was a bit more of a blue collar, new money guy, Michael did his best to fit in with his new neighbors, buying a single engine plane and getting his pilot's license. It's pretty crazy, isn't it. People would like fly to work.

12:18 I saw some interviews with some of the people that lived there and they're like, yeah, they would just taxi their little plane out of the garage and fly off to work. Wow. He diversified his business interests by buying racehorses and starting Mike Warren's racing stable. It was more of a hobby for him than a business. He and Marlene could often be found at the track watching the races. While it seemed like everything was coming up roses for Michael and Marlene, trouble began finding the family in the late nineteen eighties. Just before his eighteenth birthday, Joe was arrested along with two other people for beating and stabbing a man. He and his friends had gone over to the man's house and attacked him as because the guy allegedly beat up one of their other friends. Joe was initially charged with attempted murder, but later reached a plea deal for aggravated battery and was sentenced to six months of house arrest.

13:13 A couple of years later, he was charged with grand theft for stealing a jet ski, but that charge was later dropped too. Sounds kind of like rich kid getting into trouble and his parents bailing him out. In nineteen eighty eight, a car accident took the life of twenty two year old John Junior. That's horrible, just as it had his father. John Junior was picking up a car at an auction for his stepdad's business when he apparently missed a stop sign and hit another vehicle. His death was a crushing blow to Marlene, but she knew that she had to be strong for her son Joe. She told Joe, we'll get through this. We just have to stick together. While John Staff may have brought Marlene and Joe close together, it seemed to have the opposite effect on Michael and their marriage. Always a workaholic, he started spending even more time at work and less time at home.

14:03 He always seemed to find an excuse to leave the house. He'd leave the house at one am, saying I need to go and repossess a car. With Michael spending so much time away from home, Marlene started to suspect that he was having an affair. The couple started arguing more and more, and Marlene came to believe that Michael no longer loved her, but divorce would be messy because of all their business and financial entanglements. A few weeks before her death, she told Joe, if anything happens to me, your stepfather did it. Joe said no, there's no way he would ever do anything like that. Marlene said, don't put it past him. On Saturday May twenty sixth, nineteen ninety, Marlene was making breakfast for Joe, now twenty one, and some of his friends. The night before, Joe and his mom ran into some friends of his that he hadn't seen in a while, and Marlene said, why don't you come and stay the night. Michael had left the house around ten am with a friend, heading to Miami, which is about a ninety minute drive, to spend the day at the racetrack. Around ten forty five am, Marlene and Joe saw through the front window. A white car pull up into their circle driveway, and a colorfully dressed figure came up the walkway. Joe had a cast on his lower leg recuperating from an injury, so Marlene went to answer the door. Everyone assumed it was someone sending well wishes for Joe's recovery. The clown, dressed in a colorful costume, a curly orange wig, white gloves, white face paint, and a red bulb nose, held out two foil balloons and

15:36 a basket of red and white carnations. From the other room, Joe heard his mom explain, oh, how pretty, followed by the sound of a gunshot and his mom falling to the floor. Despite the cast on his foot, Joe leaped to action. He saw his mom lying inside the entrance of the house, bleeding from her mouth and gasping for air. He saw the clown walking calmly back to the car, white Chrysler le Baron. Joe yelled at the clown, who turned around and briefly locked eyes with him. Then the clown got into the LeBaron and calmly drove off. Joe called nine to one one right away. They told him to stay on the line, but Joe had other ideas. He dropped the phone, grabbed the keys to his mom's new car from her purse, hopped in, and chased after the libaron. He cut across lawns and drove through red lights, frantically trying to keep up with the getaway car. His plan was to crash into the car to stop it if he had the chance, but the clown had too much of a head start. After driving for ten miles, Joe finally gave up hope of finding the car and headed back home, where paramedics were working on his mother.

16:42 Marlene was brushed to Palm's West Hospital fighting for her life. The bullet had ripped through her front teeth and lodged in the cervical vertebrae behind her throat. Her condition was critical. Joe called his stepdad on his cell phone. So I had to look into this because they kept saying this and things I read, and it was like, did people have cell phones in nineteen ninety Yeah, and very few people did, but I guess they were fairly well off. So I think his dad or his stepdad did have a cell phone at that time. Every case, I'm like, when did we start texting. When did we? Yeah, it's hard to remember. So in nineteen ninety only two point four people out of one thousand had cell phones. Michael and his friend were more than halfway to Miami at this point. He turned around and headed to the hospital.

17:29 I heard this story. I was just so it's just so horrifying that someone could just walk up to your front door dressed in a clown costume and just calmly shoot you. It's just so terrifying, it is. That's why we never answered the door. That's one reason. Yeah, actually we do answer the door, but yeah, don't answer the door. And really we shouldn't be answering our doors because I think most people have ring cameras these days. And just last weekend, not far from us, someone was dressed as someone from DTE, the electric company, And what happened. They came into this guy's house and they killed him and they injured his wife as well. So it's very scary. I don't know why, or what the motive was or any other details, but I've.

18:12 Heard that's a It's not uncommon these days for people to be dressed up as an Amazon driver or whatever. So yeah, yeah, don't answer your door. If you don't know who's there, you don't know anyone anything right. The police immediately issued a BOLO for a white Chrysler le Baron with no license plates. There wasn't much evidence at the scene, just the basket of carnations and the two foil balloons that the clown had handed Marlene before shooting her. One of the balloons was red heart shaped and said You're the greatest, and the other had a picture of snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. There was no shell casing left behind, and the clown had not left the gun behind either. Because the clown was fully dressed in a loose fitting outfit with full makeup and a wig, the witnesses couldn't provide many helpful details. Joe said, quote, he's about six ' to one tall, skinny. I couldn't see no hair, no arms, no skin, nothing. He had dark eyes, he had orange hair, a red nose, and a big orange smile. Joe also noted the clown wasn't wearing the classic floppy clown shoes. Instead, he was wearing what looked like black work boots. Despite many in the community initially believing this was a random act, the police immediately came to believe the shooting was something personal. It seemed unlikely that a random shooter would find this particular out of the way neighborhood, shoot the one person who answered the door, and leave the other people at the house unharmed. The police interviewed Michael and noted that he seemed to be sincerely upset. He didn't know why anyone

19:43 would want to harm Marlene. The only thing he could think of was maybe a disgruntled tenant, or maybe a former tenant who had been evicted. While Marlene was generally seen as a kind and respectful landlord, there had been some complaints from tenants about maintenance issues and a infestation that hadn't been taken care of. Michael certainly had a motive to kill his wife. He would take control of all their assets and properties, most of which were in Marlene's name, and there was a fifty three thousand dollars life insurance policy on her with Michael as the beneficiary. But he had a solid alibi being in a car on I ninety five with a friend almost an hour away from home.

20:23 Do you know what their financial situation was at this time? Were they doing well? Still? Yeah? I think they were doing very well. There wasn't much evidence, so police started where they could. They knew the shooter wore a clown costume that must have been purchased or rented somewhere, and they had two foil balloons and a basket of red and white carnations that the clown had left behind. They started canvassing shops in the area that might sell these items. They got lucky when they found a public's supermarket that sold the exact same balloons and carnation basket. In fact, they discovered that the You're the Greatest balloon was only sold at that particular supermarket at least in Palm Beach County. A clerk remembered selling the two balloons and the carnation basket the morning that Marlene was shot. Public's records confirmed that indeed, someone had purchased those exact items just eighty two minutes before the shooting. Unfortunately, the buyer paid cash and there was no surveillance camera at the store. They soon tracked down the costume shop as well. It was a place called the Spotlight in West Palm Beach. The clerks there said that a customer had come to the shop right at closing time, just a couple of evenings before the shooting.

21:33 They were closing up, so they asked the customer if they could come back the next day, but the person said, I really need a costume tonight. I promise I'll be quick. The clerks described the person as maybe five foot eight to five foot ten, with long brown hair and brown eyes. They said that they believed it was a woman, but they weren't one hundred percent sure. They described the person as androgynists and wearing masculine clothing. She or he had on jeans, men's work boots, and a lumberjack style checkered flannel shirt. The customer chose an inexpensive costume quickly and paid cash. Two things stood out to the clerks. First, the customer didn't buy clown shoes. I guess typically if you're buying a clown outfit, you would shoes.

22:15 Also, what's a clown without the shoes. Second, they bought extra face whitener, saying they wanted to ensure that their face was completely covered. It didn't take long before investigators got a clue as to who might be the mystery clown. In fact, only two hours after Marlene was shot. An anonymous tip was called in. The tipster said, you should really take a look at Michael Warren, and not only Michael Warren, but you should also take a look at his girlfriend, Sheila Keene. I mean, sure, it's great to have a tip, but like the police wouldn't have right there exactly. Well, but they didn't know. They didn't know he had a girlfriend. When the police spoke with Michael's employees at Bargain Motors, they also mentioned Sheila Keene. Sheila worked there as well, and everyone said that Michael and Sheila were having in air. It was obvious and they didn't even seem to try and hide it. Twenty six year old Sheila Keen, formerly known as Sheila Sheltra, grew up in a small farming community in southern Florida. She was a tomboy, rambunctious, and high energy. In high school, she was described as pretty bubbly and popular with boys. She was more inclined to have male friends than female. In the eighties, Sheila met a man named Richard Keen. Sheila's cousin was actually dating Richard, who was seventeen years older than Sheila. Sheila decided that she wanted Richard for herself and essentially stole him away from her cousin. Sheila and Richard married soon after, and she became Sheila Keen. Richard Keen was not a good guy. He had a criminal record with a variety

23:46 of charges, including weapons possession and drug trafficking. He was a former leader in the local Ku Klux Klan chapter. People said that he was a bad influence on anybody that came into his life. At one point in their marriage, Keen spent two years in prison for drug trafficking after a shootout with police. Sheila waited faithfully until Richard was released. Keen had a business repossessing cars, contracting out his services to various auto shops in West Palm Beach. Sheila started doing repossessions as well, and it turned out that she was good at it. To be a repo man or woman in this case, you have to go into some pretty bad neighborhoods and be willing to put yourself in some risky situations. Sheila was fearless. She was also well armed, taking a stun gun, a machete, and a thirty eight caliber revolver with her on her repo runs. One of Richard's accounts was Bargain Motors, so that's how Sheila got connected to Michael Warren. Eventually, Richard stopped servicing the Bargain Motors account and Sheila became Michael's primary repo person. It didn't take long before people around the office realized that something was going on between Michael and Sheila. They started spending more time together. They would hang out in his office right gas gularly, show affection publicly, and people said that the wave Sheila looked at Michael told them that she was in love. Sheila also loved money, and she may have seen Michael as her way of getting the good life that she thought she deserved. By late nineteen eighty nine, Sheila and Richard's marriage had deteriorated. Sheila filed

25:20 a petition for an injunction against Richard, accusing him of grabbing her arm, ripping her bracelets off, pulling her hair, and threatening her. In January nineteen ninety, Sheila moved from the house that she shared with Richard into an apartment in West Palm Beach paid for by Michael Warren. Michael was seen there so often that neighbors assumed that the couple was married. Interestingly, the apartment where Sheila lived was right across the street from the Public's supermarket where the foil balloons and the carnation basket had been purchased. Coincidence maybe not. You said foil balloons a few times. Now you mean myler balloons. I guess that. Yeah, I guess that more accurate. Correct.

26:04 People who knew them both said that Michael and Sheila were a good match because they were both wild. They liked to stay up late and go repo cars together, and they like to go to the horse races together. One time at the racetrack, Michael's mother was there with them. She confronted Sheila, asking if she was in love with her son. Sheila said yes, she was. Then Michael's mom asked Michael if he was in love with Sheila. His reply, I love myself. Yikes, red flag. Yeah. Michael's mom was there, but didn't she know that he was married? Yeah? Like I said, I think they weren't. They didn't even seem to be hiding their affair that much. A couple of weeks before Marlene was shot, things seemed to cool off between Sheila and Michael. Bargain Motors employees noticed that they stopped going to lunch together and they were not as affectionate as usual. Speculation was that Michael was irritated with Sheila. She was pushing too hard and acting bossi toward other employees. He apparently told some employees that Sheila was acting like his wife and he was thinking about firing her. Sheila fit the description given by the costume shop employees. She had long brown hair, and she liked to dress in combat boots and men's clothing. They showed a photo line up to the costume shop clerks.

27:20 One of them identified Sheila, saying she was absolutely sure that was who bought the clown costume. The other was less sure, but she did pick Sheila out along with one other photo, saying she thought it was one of the two. When the police questioned Michael and Sheila about their relationship, both of them denied that they were having an affair. Michael said he realized that other people thought there was something going on, but it wasn't the case. His marriage to Marlene was strong, he said. While the police were tracking down leads, Marlene was on life support at the hospital. After two days, doctors informed her family that there was no hope and they made the difficult decision to take her off of life support. Marlene died on Memorial Day, May twenty eighth, nineteen ninety and her funeral was held three days later. Many of the mourners were tenants of the apartments that Marlene managed. Investigators staked out the funeral, taking photos of those in attendance. We'll be back after a break.

28:24 Two days after Marlene passed, the police got a break in the case. Employees at the Winn Dixie supermarket about seven miles from Marlene and Michael's home, noticed a car in the parking lot that had been sitting there for a few days. It was a white Chrysler the Baron, which matched the description of the car the police had been looking for, so the employees alerted the authorities. When they looked up the car's in number, they found it had an interesting history that led right to the doorstep of Bargain Motors. So this history is a little bit convoluted, so do your best to stick with us on this one, okay. The car had been rented from Payless car rental on April sixth by a couple Alissa and Vincent Restivo. When Alyssa and Vincent were ready to return the car. On Saturday evening, April fourteenth, they called pay Less to find out that the business was closed. Thinking that maybe there was an alternate number, they checked the Yellow Pages in the phone book. They found an ad that clearly said pay Less in big letters. As the headlight of the ad.

29:27 Alssa called the number. A man answered, and she asked whether this was Payless car Rental. He assured her that it was. He told Alyssa, if you want to return the car, just leave it outside the lot gate with the keys on the sun visor and some one would come and get it. Alyssa and Vincent thought that seemed a bit odd, but they did it anyway. When they got home, they called the same number again from the Yellow Pages to let them know that they had left the car. This time, the man who answered said he had no idea what they were talking about. Alyssa swore his voice was the same as the man who had answered the first time. This made the Restivos nervous, so they drove back to the Payliss car lot and saw that the car was gone. The next day, they called the correct number for the Payless car rental and told them what had happened. Payless then reported the car as being stolen.

30:19 You with me so far on this car thing, Yeah, it's a. Little little odd. It turned out that there was some bad blood between Bargain Motors and Payless Car Rental. Michael viewed Payless Car Rental as the enemy and would do anything he could do to mess with them and steal their business. When Michael had the Yellow Pages ad created over a year earlier, he intentionally made the headline Payless, with the actual name of the business, Bargain Motors, and smaller print near the bottom. When Payliss saw the deceptive ad, they sued Bargain Motors. Michael was ordered to pay thirty five I have one thousand dollars to pay Less and to change the ad the following year, but the new Yellow Pages had not yet been printed, which led the Restivos to erroneously call Bargain Motors that evening. What a scam.

31:16 Of course, it was hard to prove that anyone from Bargain Motors had actually stolen the vehicle, but it certainly seemed to be more than a coincidence that the getaway car used in Marlene Warren's homicide could be connected to her husband's business. In the car that they recovered from the wind Dixie, the police found several orange fibers similar to one that one might find in a clown wig. I would think those clown wigs would just, you know, just stuff right. These were sent to the FBI crime Lab for analysis, which eventually identified them as man made fibers consistent with the fibers and a clown wig that had been sold from the costume shop. They also found a few long brown hairs in the car. Visually, these looked like they could have come from Sheila, but this was a time when DANNA testing was still relatively new.

32:08 It was being used on blood, but wasn't yet advanced enough to use on hair samples containing the root of the hair, so the hairs were placed in an evidence bag and set aside. Was that a little foreshadowing there? Perhaps? In June nineteen ninety, shortly after the le baron was found, investigators got a warrant to search Sheila's apartment in West Palm Beach. Inside her closet, they found orange fibers that were examined and found to be consistent with the fibers found in the car, but they didn't find anything else incriminating. No murder weapon, no wig, no clown costume, no clown makeup. Sheila gave investigators a hair samples to compare it with what they found in the le Baron, although any comparison at this point would just be too determine whether the hairs were consistent, results could not be definitive. Sheila's alibi for the day of the Marlans murder was that she was driving around looking for cars to repossess. She named a few communities where she was out driving, but she couldn't provide any more specifics.

33:12 So at this point some investigators were actually pushing to arrest Sheila so just to maybe sum up the evidence against her, so eyewitnesses at the costume shop they identified Sheila from a photo lineup as the person who bought the clown suit. The getaway vehicle could be traced back to Bargain Motors, where Sheila worked. Many people alleged that Sheila and Michael were having an affair, although both Sheila and Michael denied it. The orange fibers that were found in the le Baron and in Sheila's closet that were consistent with the clown wig, and there were hairs found in the getaway vehicle that were consistent with Sheila's long, straight, and brown. The main thing that pointed away from Sheila at this point was that Joe's description of the clown.

33:55 He referred to the clown as he when he was questioned by the police, who also said the shooter was tall estimated at six foot one, Sheila was around five six or five seven. So I'm curious, do you think that Sheila should have been arrested and tried at this point? Was Joe able to identify the clown costume, like did the police have a similar one from the costume shop and say was this the costume that you saw? I don't know how specific he was able to get in his description of the clown costume. So I don't know if they were able to one hundred percent say that it was that same costume that was purchased at the costume shop. But I'm guessing they were like ninety nine percent sure it was that costume because there was no other clown costumes sold that they found, you know, in the area.

34:42 I think it might be too circumstantial at this point. What do you think, Well, hindsight is twenty twenty and I know how this all turns out, So in hindsight they probably should have. But as we talk about a lot, you only have one shot at a prosecution, and if you fail, the person can't be tried again. And so I think where you put them in jail and build your case while they're incarcerated. But you're saying that you don't think there was probable cause at this point, I. Mean it was all pretty much circumstantial, like you said. While the state's attorney did decide not to move forward at this point, they cited the difference between probable cause and reasonable doubt. So police probably did have probable cause to arrest Shila, but whether they could get a conviction was another question. The prosecutor believed that a good defense attorney would be able to convince a jury that there was enough reasonable doubt to find Shila not guilty. The other big question at this point is whether Michael was involved or whether Sheila acted on her own. The police didn't have any hard evidence against him. The best that they could do was to take a closer look at Michael's shady business practices. In October nineteen ninety the police executed a warrant to search Bargain Motors. They took a bunch of documents and records away with them. The next day, Michael was arrested, not for murder, but for odometer tampering, insurance fraud, grand theft, and racketeering. He was charged with sixty six counts in all. The assistant state attorney said that the charges were just the tip of the iceberg

36:14 when it came to alleged criminal activity at Bargain Motors. The state's attorney said that Michael's arrest had nothing at all to do with the murder case, but in a court hearing, the prosecutor referred to him as a suspect in the murder of his wife. This set the judge off, saying either file charges or leave the murder investigation out of it. It also gave Michael's attorney ammunition to claim that this was a witch hunt. They were desperate to find anything that would justify the time and expense that they had put into the murder investigation. Michael did an interview with a local radio station around this time. He said, quote, I'm guilty until I proved myself innocent. I didn't think that's the way it was supposed to work. The worst thing is what happened to my wife, but the second worst thing is what they're doing to me and my businesses.

37:00 Nothing will ever clear my name. Michael's trial on the sixty six charges didn't take place until July nineteen ninety two. That's a lot of charges. It is. The jury found him guilty of forty three of the counts. The judge in the case was not buying the prosecution's argument that this prosecution was completely unrelated to the murder, and as a result, he didn't sentence Michael to any prison time. However, the state appealed the sentencing, which took a couple of years, but eventually, in nineteen ninety four, Michael was sentenced to nine years in prison. He served three years, and he was released in nineteen ninety seven. After Marlene's murder, her son Joe struggled to cope, as you can imagine, losing your only brother to a car accident, followed soon after by the murder of your mom and your stepdad and primary father figure being a suspect in that murder all took its toll. He struggled with anger issues, abandonment issues, PTSD and depression. He turned to alcohol to cope.

38:03 That's a lot. He went through an awful lot in a short period of time. Yeah. When his stepdad went to prison for the fraud and racketeering charges, he and Joe lost touch. When Michael got released from prison in nineteen ninety seven, he called Joe one time out of the blue. Then they never spoke again. After that, Joe felt like Michael had thrown him aside like a bag of trash. At a press conference in nineteen ninety one, on the one year anniversary of Marlene's murder, detectives said, quote, we have two suspects and they are Sheila Keene and Michael Warren unquote, but all the evidence was circumstantial, and it wasn't even a particularly strong circumstantial case. They were still hoping to find additional physical evidence linking Sheila Keen to the crime. Gradually the case started fading into the background. The media moved on from the sensational clown killer headlines and they forgot about Michael Warren and Sheila Keen. The police never officially declared had a cold case, but they had moved on as well.

39:03 I'm going to insist to read the next flip before we go on. I don't know why I wrote it. Think a little comic relief in the middle of it is fine. All right, here's what I wrote. Similar to Rip van Winkle, the case remained dormant for over twenty years before gradually resurfacing, exactly like Rippmann Minkle. Oh good. By the time it did, the world had changed significantly from how it was in nineteen ninety. Ripam Rinkle was asleep for twenty years. Yes, okay, I didn't. I didn't know the time period. What breathed new life into the case was a one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars grant that the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office received in twenty thirteen. The grant was earmarked for investigating cold cases, and the most famous cold case in Palm Beach County at that time was the Wellington Clown murder. One major thing that had changed in the preceding twenty three years was that DNA testing was much improved. Hair could now be tested in two ways. First, the hair shaft could be tested for mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA testing is often used for testing older samples where nuclear DNA is limited or degraded, but the downside is that it's not definitive. It can be used to trace maternal lineage, but can't usually point definitively to a single person.

40:29 If the root portion of the hair is available, it often contains microscopic bits of tissue. In those cases, nuclear DNA testing can be done, which is more accurate. Investigators in this case were able to run both types of tests, and the conclusion was that the hair found in the LeBaron was a match for Sheila Keene. How strong of a match would later be a subject of debate. While waiting for the DNA test results, investigators decided to track down Michael and Sheila to find out what they had been up to since the investigationation went cold. They found that Michael was living a new life in a small town in Tennessee, not far from the Blue Ridge Mountains. He was married to a woman named Debbie, and together they were operating a small fast food place called the Purple Cow.

41:14 It's still there and it's such a cute little place I want to go. It was like a roadside fast food. Stand with well Meyer. They call their ice cream brand like the Purple Cow or something. Yeah, I don't think it's related to that. Interesting. That's quite a departure from his life with Yeah, no cars, and apparently Michael had done okay for himself despite his legal troubles. He inherited all of Marlene's assets, as well as cashing in her fifty three thousand dollars life insurance policy. He and Debbie lived in a sprawling mansion in the Blue Ridge Mountains, so Joe didn't get anything. I think all of Marlene's assets went to Michael as her husband. Whether Michael helped out Joe or not, I don't know. I mean, it seems like they lost touch with each other not too long after Marlene died, so it sounds like he was pretty much left out in the cold.

42:02 That's pretty horrible. It's really horrible, and Marlene would be furious. Yeah. When detectives looked into Sheila's whereabouts, they discovered that she had finally gotten a divorce from Richard Keene in two thousand, despite having been separated since nineteen ninety two. Years after her divorce to Richard was finalized, Sheila got married again, her husband none other than Michael Warren oh, interesting. Yeah. It turned out that Sheila wanted to leave her past behind as well, so she died her brown hair blonde and started going by the name Debbie. She waited faithfully for Michael while he served his three years in prison. Then the two reunited, got married in Vegas, moved to Tennessee, and started a new life together. Employees of the Purple Cow said that Michael and Debbie were kind and generous bosses.

42:50 No one had any idea that they were both suspects in her murder that had happened years earlier, although there were rumors. One former employee reported that Sheila, also known as Debbie, was hanging out drinking one night with the employee and her roommate. The roommate claimed that Sheila got drunk and confessed to murdering Marlene Warren so that she and Michael could be together. The police statement said quote the former roommate told her that one night, Sheila was intoxicated and had said that she used to repoke cars for Mike and they were together but could not be because of his wife. Sheila said that she had picked out a clown out of it and killed his wife and then drove off she said that Mike was her alibi.

43:32 Sheila said that they moved and wanted to get married, but had had to wait for the attention on the case to die down. End quote. Another employee recalled the time that Debby had dressed up as a clown for Halloween. I know, that's horrible, really horrible. Mike and Sheila operated the Purple Cow business until twenty sixteen, when they sold it and retired to a large lake house in Abington, Virginia, near the Tennessee border. By September twenty seventeen, more than twenty seven years after Marlin Warren was murdered, investigators finally decided that they had enough evidence to arrest Sheila Keen Warren. Sheila and Michael were returning home from a road trip to Vermont to visit her mother when police pulled them over and took Sheila into custody. Sheila didn't ask why she was being arrested. She only asked, quote, are you going to arrest him too? Referring to Michael. Sheila Keen Warren, now fifty four, was charged with first degree murder and extradited to Florida, where she pleaded not guilty. The state announced that they would seek the death penalty and bond was denied. Marlene's mom, Surely and her son Joe, had lost track of both Michael and Sheila in the year since the murder. After Sheila's arrest, Shirley received a call from a reporter, and that's how she learned that Michael and Sheila were now married. Shirley eighty seven said he married the killer son of a gun.

45:00 Surely was quite a character. Here's a spitfire. Yeah. When Joe learned that his former stepfather was married to Sheila, he said had put the final puzzle piece in place for him. He now felt certain that Michael and Sheila had conspired to kill his mom. Poor Joe, I. Know, I feel so bad for him. Soon after Sheila was arrested, the police got a tip from the son of one of Michael's former employees at Bargain Motors. John Moran Junior, told investigators that his father had made a deathbed confession to him years ago, saying that he drove a second getaway car on the day that Marlene was killed. Moran told police that this second car, containing the murder weapon and the clown costume, had been dumped in a canal, and he gave police the exact location. Divers dredged the canal, and indeed they found a nineteen eighty two Audi, but there was no gun and no clown costume to be found.

45:55 Moran also claimed that Michael Warren had reached out to him after Sheila's arrest and offered to buy him a house if he testified in Sheila's defense. Moran said that he was scared for his life in case Michael found out that he was talking to the police. Another person came forward after Sheila's arrest with a bizarre story. Attorney Christopher DeSantis represented Marlene's son Joe in his aggravated assault case in nineteen eighty nine, the year before Marlene's murder. DeSantis remembered walking out of the courtroom one day when Joe's stepdad, Michael Warren, asked him if a husband were to kill his wife, what would happen to her estate. DeSantis remembered thinking, this guy's nuts, but he figured it was just a random hypothetical question. The really bizarre thing, though, is how DeSantis said he answered. Quote what I said to him is it really isn't an issue of whether a man kills his wife. The question is whether the man is convicted of murdering his wife, Because if he's convicted of murdering his wife, he wouldn't inherit, but if he were convicted of a lower charge, he would. DeSantis went out to say, I said, what's particularly peculiar about the thing is not only that, but if he had a friend who did it, and they couldn't tie him as an accessory to the friend, he'd get away scott free. Quote.

47:12 And in a final bizarre statement, DeSantis said that he specifically recalled telling Michael Warren that a killer dressed as a clown would likely get off because witnesses would not be able to determine whether the assailant was male or female. Oh my goodness, it's just so bizarre to be like this. Lawyer basically admitted that he gave Michael ancessory. He almost is right. He gave him like the whole blueprint of here's how to get away with murder. Well, we do that every week. Really, I mean not every week, but they don't always get away. Sheila sat in jail for years while her trial kept getting delayed for one reason after another, despite initially hiring an attorney. Sheila then claims she was destitute and needed the court to provide attorneys for her. Of course, she and Michael had plenty of wealth living in a lake front mansion. Prosecutors were outraged, saying, quote, the defendant and her husband have done nothing short of perpetrating a fraud onto the court and the state of Florida unquote. They asked a judge to revoke her indigent status, revealing that shortly after her arrest, Sheila and Michael shifted three hundred thousand dollars from their joint bank account to an account in Michael's name only. She also signed over the title of their five hundred and eighty one thousand dollars lake house to Michael. The judge ruled against Sheila, and she was forced to repay the state for legal expenses incurred so far. Sheila's defense team was preparing for trial and felt like they had a pretty good chance at an acquittal.

48:40 They believed the DNA analysis was weak, saying that one sample showed both male and female genes and the other sample could have come from one out of every twenty women. Even Marlene Warren couldn't be excluded as the source of the sample, and even if it was Sheila's DNA, it wouldn't have been surprising for her to have been in the car at some point, since it had been at the Bargain Motor's lot and that's where she worked. Another key part of the state's case was the orange fiber found in the car and in Sheila's closet, matching the clown wig that had been sold from the costume shop. The defense argued that these were synthetic fibers that could likely be found in hundreds, if not thousands, of different products.

49:23 The eyewitness reports were another factor working in favor of Sheila's defense. All of the witnesses at the crime scene Joe and his friends, said that the clown was over six feet tall, and three of the four stated that the clown was a man Sheila's between five foot six and five foot seven. Well. Making things even more complicated for the state was a scandal involving the storage of evidence by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Department. In February two thousand, seventeen years before Sheila's arrest, the Palm Beach Post published a scathing article with the headline errors Found in sheriff's evidence procedures. The article reported on an audit that had found evidence from the killer Clown case stored in bags that were unsealed and torn open, with evidence sticking out, opening the door for cross contamination. The report also documented many examples of records that were not kept according to standards. There was also a question of exculpatory evidence that was either lost or kept from the defense. A police report from nineteen ninety mentioned a clown sighting file that contained reports of around forty clown sightings around Palm Beach the day of Marlene's murder and the following few days. I know people are just seeing clowns everywhere.

50:40 Oh after the murder? Yeah, oh, ok, gotcha. The defense asked for this file many times over the years, because it would obviously help them point a finger at other possible suspects, but the prosecutors claimed that the file was lost. They said it wasn't intentional, it was just a thirty year old cold case, and stuff gets lost. Sheila's DEFENSEANZ finally filed a motion to compel the state to produce the file soon after that. In October twenty twenty two, the day that jury selection was supposed to begin in Sheila's trial, the state's attorney produced the clown sighting file, saying that it had finally turned up. It had been mistakenly placed in with Michael Warren's odometer, tampering evidence.

51:21 They claimed. The judge was frustrated, to say the least. He asked, quote, how is it possible that the sheriffs didn't see that file? It's ridiculous. This stuff should not happen unquote. He gave Sheila's defense sixty days to investigate the leads from the clown sighting file, delaying the trial for a sixth time. Of course, being more than thirty two years later, it was nearly impossible for her defense team to track down the people who had reported these clown sightings. In twenty twenty, the state announced they were no longer planning to seek the death penalty, perhaps an admission that their case wasn't as strong as they would have liked. In April twenty twenty three, three weeks before Sheila's latest trial date, a bomb shell was dropped, the state's attorney announced that Sheila had agreed to plead guilty to second deary murder. In exchange, she would be sentenced to twelve years in prison. With the nearly six years she had already served plus time off her good behavior, that would mean Sheila would be released in a year and a half at most. It wasn't a great outcome for the prosecution, but their case was literally falling apart. It was thirty three years old, they had the evidence scandal which the defense would have hammered them on, and the witnesses were literally dying. One of the key witnesses for the prosecution passed away in twenty twenty. This was a detective who was responsible for maintaining the evidence. Without him, there was no way for the prosecution to establish a chain of custody.

52:52 Marlene's son Joe, approved of the plea deal, saying that it wasn't worth the gamble of going to trial. At least this way, Sheila would be a convicted murderer and would have to carry that label with her forever. The state's attorney said, quote, you had a circumstantial case that I think would have had better success at the time it occurred back in nineteen ninety than in the CSI era of today, where jurors expect to see DNA evidence or video evidence or other types of direct evidence tying the suspect to the crime. Here, we were undermined by thirty three years between the crime and the trial. We were undermined by father time. End quote. As they say, hindsight is twenty twenty. Even though Sheila pleaded guilty to the murder, her attorney still insisted that she didn't commit the crime. He said the plea deal was good enough that it wasn't worth the risk of going to trial.

53:45 Michael Warren said, quote, my wife did not commit this crime. It was difficult to see her plea to a crime that she did not commit, but it wasn't worth the gamble when she would have offered a deal that'll have her home in sixteen to eighteen months. End quote. What do you think about this resolution of this case? I think it's horrible. I don't like it at all. What do you think? I don't like it at all either. I think justice was definitely not done in this case. Sheila did spend some time in jail. She's still in jail for another I don't know, six months or something like that. But I think Michael probably had something to do with his wife's murder as well. Something to do with it. Yeah, I don't think Sheila did it on her own, right, So, yeah, it's really unfortunate the way.

54:30 It's interesting that she didn't turn on him, because she could have turned on him for you know, a much lighter sentence, I'm sure. Yeah. And again, Michael, why why couldn't you have divorced Marlene? Like I get, he would have lost some assets. No, I know, it's just not the not the answer. Makes me wonder, like how heavily Obviously a lot of the people that we talk about are sociopaths or psychopaths and they don't have guilt, But how does it affect the rest of your life? You know, knowing that you took someone else's life. I would hope it would affect your life a lot, but I get the sense that it probably didn't for Michael and Sheila at least they seem to be living the life. And you know, it's really makes me mad, it does. It makes me mad too. It was at least some measure of justice for Marlene Warren, but as we discussed, not nearly enough. Michael Warren has never been charged, and Sheila Keen Warren will be a free woman in a few months. She is currently expected to be released from prison in May twenty twenty five. She will be sixty one years old. Both Michael and Sheila got what they wanted. Michael got to inherit, Marlene's assets and cashed in on her life insurance policy. Sheila got to be with the man she loved enough to kill for only serving a few short years for her crime. Marlene's mom, Shirley Twing, unfortunately passed away in March twenty twenty three, just a month before Sheila Keen Warren was convicted of her daughter's murder. Marlene's son, Joe Aarons, has been through a lot, first losing his brother in an accident, than

56:01 losing his mom. The father figure in his life, Michael Warren, then tossed him aside like a piece of trash and married the woman who murdered his mom. Before his mom was killed, Joe had dreams of going to college and becoming a pilot, but after her death he couldn't cope. Joe struggled for years with anger issues, PTSD, abandonment issues, and alcohol abuse. One day he finally broke down and said, enough is enough. I can't do this on my own. I need to go to rehab. Joe got sober and then ended up moving to Iowa. He learned how to be a builder, and he started his own construction company. He still remembers his mom fondly, saying, quote, my mom was an angel. We were best friends. I look at myself and still see her in me, the eyes, the smile, unquote, rest in peace, Marlene.

56:51 Do you think that Michael asked Sheila to kill Marlene? I don't think we can ever know the answer to that, but I wouldn't be surprised or I don't know if he asked her or if they just talked about it together, like they wanted to be together. But Michael was probably like, well if I divorce her, I'm going to lose everything. So you know, they probably brought it up in someone. I don't believe she did it on her own volition. I don't believe she I believe they definitely conspired together. But whose idea it was or how it came about, who knows. So if you're Michael and Sheila, you're living on this throne of lies, and how do you know you're not going to turn on each other? They've been together a long time, but I know, you know, like if Sheila killed Marlene without Michael, you know, without them conspiring, and Michael would be nervous that she might do the same to him because you know, she would get all of the assets.

57:43 Yeah, you would think that would be like hanging over their marriage all the time, like if they had a fight or something, if you like, yeah, like, well, you know, I could I could always make your life really bad exactly. Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't seem like a good life to me. We were talking about Halloween movies the other day. Halloween is almost upon us, and we were talking about the movie Halloween, obviously one of the granddaddy's of all Halloween movies. I found some interesting facts about the movie Halloween I thought I would share with you. First, you know, how many movies there are in the Halloween franchise. There's a lot, I would say. Like eight thirteen, And interestingly, I didn't we've seen a handful.

58:27 Of them, probably four yeah, something like that. And interestingly, like they follow I didn't realize this, but there are like different timelines in them, in the sequels, Like some movies came out and don't take into account the other movies and it's like a choose your own adventure type of thing that you can go in different timelines of what happened. That's very strange. It took less than two weeks to write the script for the original Halloween movie, which actually doesn't seem that crazy. A ton of it, right, That's why I. Didn't seem that crazy. Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis, it was her first feature debut. Oh was it really? Yeah? I didn't really realize that either. So that was what really put her on the map. Halloween. You know where it was set, right, I'm not sure actually the town.

59:16 It was a fictional town, but it was set in Haddenfield, Illinois. Oh okay, but it was actually shot in Pasadena and Hollywood, California. And I guess if you look closely in some scenes there are palm trees in the background with some of the shots. So that's kind of funny. Even though the ten days of writing the screenplay didn't impress me that much, the production that impressed me. You know how many how long it took to actually film the movie? No, twenty days, that's insane. I guess I don't know what the length is of Oh. I think most feature films take months to. Film, okay, and that went really there's especially for poor Jamie Lee Curtis. She went through it with that movie. There's a lot of running and screaming and it must have been very a very physical job.

1:00:00 Yeah, I would think so. I think a lot of people know this. But the mask that Michael Meyer wore, do you know what that is based on? M I know it, but I can't think of it. It's a Captain Kirk mask. That's right. Posted on my Instagram last week. Yeah, I think that's really funny. Original. Originally they were, they were. They narrowed it down to two different masks. One was the the Captain Kirk mask, but the other was a clown mask. It was a clown called Weary Willie, which is like a sad clown. Two more quick facts. One is that most of the actors in the film supplied their own wardrobe. Jamie Lee Curtis bought her costumes at J. C. Penny All for under one hundred dollars.

1:00:41 I'm not surprised. It doesn't surprise me either. The other thing is that Michael Myers is played by three different actors in the. Movie, which I did not just the first movie. Yeah, just in the first movie. Why is that? I think it's because he had a mask on. I think it was just whoever was available on set at the particular time that they needed a person. So it would probably be pretty fun if you were just you know, the janitor on the set that got to play Michael Myers. Yeah, it would be cool. We should. We should watch it. We used to watch it every year. Yeah, we should again, it's been a while. It's mid October and we have yet to watch a scary movie, right, know, it's really nice. Do you have any recommendations for us? Let us know. We've gotten a few already, so yeah, we've gotten a couple in our inbox and in comments, so we have a few on our list. But if you have others, definitely let us know.

1:01:27 Yeah, let's watch one now, Okay, right after eat dinner. All right, let's do it. You know what I made for dinner? What did you make for dinner? I made well, I made like some pasta with some sauce and some bread. But I made butternut squash, which you're gonna hate. Oh okay, great, got that to look forward to. Yeah, you're going to eat it though, right of course to try it. Yes, okay, all right, before we go, Do you want to say anything about the Tigers or are you. I'd rather not talk about it. No, it was it was a great season. I'm so happy they got as far as they did. I am a little sad that my parlay bet that I made for the Tigers to make it to the World Series and the Lions to win the Super Bowl is not going to pan out.

1:02:09 But Lions guy. Oh yeah, Aiden Hutchinson really badly injured. That was probably listening, So get well soon, Aiden Hutchinson. Yes, I'm sure he is listening. He's got some time on his hands right. Now, so I hope he makes a full and speedy recovery. Yes, for sure. Thank you all so much for listening today. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com, and. Please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash love Marykill. We have one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode Until next time. Don't Kill your wife and Don't Kill your husband to pick the