Mary and Bill Yoder - Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, sometimes Rich is going to screw up the introductions. Sometimes Tina's going to screw up the introduction. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich, how are you? I'm good? How are you? Great intro? You'd think we'd have it down, but man, that took us forty six times to take us a while did take us a while. We were at the giggles. Some days are a little rough. I'm glad to be here with you today and I'm excited to tell you the story I'm going to tell you today. Me too, it's a I went deep on this one. You've been warning me for the last couple of weeks. Yeah. So I started off reading a book. The case we're going to talk about is about the death of a woman named Mary Yoder. I started off reading book by M. William Phelps, which had a lot of great information in it. But then I found a trial transcript three thousand pages of trial transcripts, three thousand, yes, three thousand pages.

1:11 How long was the trial? Oh? I don't know, we'll talk later, but yeah, it was a lot of information, so I've got a lot of really good detail. I think it's a really interesting case. But you didn't read the whole three thousand pages. Oh no no, I read the most relevant parts. But before we get into the case, I do have a snack for you. And it came all the way from Ireland, Oh, the land of my ancestors. Yeah, Irish. That was perfect. So when I was in Europe recently, my colleague Helen, who lives in Ireland, she brought me a snack. Oh that was so nice. I know, it's really nice, and I wasn't sure it was going to make the trip back very well, but it did. But she also described for me how to make out of the snack that she brought. A traditional Irish snack that you eat after a long night of going out drinking.

2:00 So what I brought is these are potato chips or crisps as they're doing. But they are called potatoes, cheese and onion crisps. Why are they open? Well? Because I had to make the sandwich out of them. So what you make is a you make an Irish crisp sandwich, which is essentially white bread, butter and potato chips. Okay, I'm in so. Yeah, we don't normally eat white bread, but whenever I do, I really enjoy it. Yeah, I did not get the Traditionally you would make this with Brennan's bread, which is from Ireland, but I couldn't find that anywhere. But I did get carry gold Irish butter to put on the bread. I'm sure it's a completely different authentic. Yes, we've probably mentioned this before, but we both do have Irish heritage, and I have bright red hair.

2:46 You do beautiful, beautiful red hair. I don't know about that, but yes, and I also brought well, Helen also brought me this Cadbury Dairy milk bar, which was made in Ireland as well. So you brought home a bunch of snacks, not for the podcast, but for our family when you were in Europe. Is that the same thing that you brought us? No, this is different. Okay. The one you brought you brought like little caramel bits of cadberry. They were really good. Yeah, well let's take a break and we will try our snack. What did you think about the Irish crisp sandwich? I thought it was delightful. That's good.

3:29 Actually, I was not expecting to like it, but I really did like it. I think had the bread that you've given me not been the stale piece on the loaf, it would have been even better. I'm sorry you could never please me. No, it was really good. The Cadbury was delicious, really good. Thank you so much, Hellen. Yeah, thank you all. And one thing I learned about this is that people like to eat this sandwich after a long night of serious crack. If you ever heard the word crack our spelled cr ai c. That's an Irish slang term for going out and partying. Oh okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, so there you go. We do have a lot of listeners in Ireland and if one of you has a recommendation for us, let us know. We do have about two to three hundred case recommendations right now and try. Oh we've never done her Irish case, so would be that would be cool.

4:20 Yeah. So today's case is a recommendation from our listener Sarah in Indianapolis. So thank you, Sarah. We appreciate the recommendation. It was a really interesting case. Everyone who knew her said that sixty year old Mary Yoder was one of the most energetic vibrant and healthy people. You could imagine in July of twenty fifteen, when she went from her usual self to being violently ill over the course of one day. Everyone assumed it was a gastro intestinal bug that would pass. On day two of her illness, Mary's sixty nine year old husband, Bill Yoder, took her to the er. She seemed to improve as the day went on, but overnight she took a turn for the worse, ending up in the ICU, and shockingly, she passed away the next afternoon. Mary and Bill seemed to have a storybook marriage of thirty eight years. They raised three kids together, started and ran the successful chiropractic clinic together in a suburb of Utica, New York, and they were starting to plan for the next phase of their life together, selling the business, traveling the world, and retiring. All that was cut short when Mary died.

5:25 Here's an excerpt from doctor Mary Louise Baker Yoder's obituary to give you some idea of who she was. She was a well educated woman whose schooling spanned twenty years. She earned her doctorate in chiropractic medicine from Life Chiropractic College in nineteen eighty six. She and her husband, doctor William R. Yoder d C. Were a hard working and dedicated couple, inseparable in raising their family and building their careers together. Along with her husband, Mary owned and operated Chiropractic Family Care in Whitesburro for twenty eight years. She was a beloved woman and well known member of her community who touched countless lives throughout her working and social life. She was wholeheartedly holistic and believed in the therapeutic power of healing that considers the body, mind, and soul in balancing her life. Mary loved gardening, as evidenced by the beautiful gardens at her home. She also enjoyed dancing, especially Bollywood belly and African dancing. She was a gifted artist and pursued photography, painting, and pottery. She was a member of the World Music Choir, singing and drumming as a talented musician. She was an affiliate of the New York State Chiropractic Association and a patron of the Munson Williams Procter Arts Institute. But above all else, Mary was the absolute best grandmother who lovingly adored each of her grandkids. They were the center of her life.

6:50 She sounds like she was a lovely, lovely woman. She sounds amazing. As the Onondaga County Medical Examiner's Office tried to understand the Mary's sudden illness and death, their work raised more questions than answers. Every avenue they explored seemed to result in a dead end. As investigators gradually unraveled the mystery, relationships would be tested and families torn apart. Mary Baker was born in Buffalo, New York, in nineteen fifty five and raised in Utica. She was the third of eight children, six girls, followed by two boys, the births of the eight kids spanning over twenty years. After attending community college for a bit, she decided to head to the big city to attend college at the University of Buffalo, two hundred miles away from Utica, although she still wasn't sure what she wanted to study. She initially stayed with an aunt and uncle who lived near the university, but after a while she wanted to be independent and start living her own life. She had been extremely shy as a child and was looking to get out there and start spreading her wings. She checked the want ads and found a boarding house with a room for rent. The other students living in the boarding house interviewed her and decided she was a good fit. She seemed kind, upstanding, and warm. One of those roommates was Bill Yoder. Bill, who was almost ten years older than Mary, had grown up in Phoenix, Arizona. After three years in the army, he ended up in Buffalo, where he went to college and eventually worked his way into the doctorate program in philosophy. He wasn't sure exactly what he wanted

8:24 to do with his education, although teaching was always an option. People said he had a brilliant mind and loved the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. Philosophy appealed to him, examining the big questions about life, meaning, and happiness. Mary had a boyfriend at the time she moved into the boarding house, and Bill didn't even consider the possibility of romance, But over time he started seeing that Mary was really different than most girls he knew. She seemed so down to earth and authentic. Coincidentally, she and her boyfriend broke up soon after she moved in, and Bill asked her out. This was around nineteen seventy five or nineteen seventy six. Before long, Bill and Mary were dating exclusively. Bill's work on his PhD was going slowly to finish.

9:09 All he needed to do really was to write his dissertation, which I know, I say all he needed to do. That's obviously a huge amount of work, but Bill was procrastinating. He was seven years into the program at the time he met Mary, and he had taken all the classes he could take. The head of the philosophy program at University of Buffalo called him in and said, we don't have any teaching spots open, and there are no more classes you can take, so you either need to write your dissertation and finish your degree or move on. How long do you think it typically takes to write your dissertation, like at least a couple of years, right, I think that's right. It's a ton of work. Rather than buckle down and get going on his dissertation, Bill had another idea. He went to Mary, who he had been dating for several months by this time, and said, Hey, how about we do some traveling. Mary didn't even have to think about it, said yes, absolutely, she could put her studies on hold for a while. They had a garage sale They sold everything that they couldn't take with and they loaded up the car and took off with no plan or thought as to where they were headed. Wow, that's cool.

10:13 They ended up in Arizona at first so Bill could introduce Mary to his parents, and then they took off again, deciding to give Albuquerque a try. Their reasoning they liked Sunshine, and Mary liked the way Albuquerque was spelled. She thought it would be fun to write it as a return address. Albuquerque is fun to say it is. It's hard to spell too. They both got a job at the local pizza hut in Albuquerque. Mary returned to school, transferring her credits from Buffalo, while Bill commenced to work on a book inspired by his studies in philosophy. He thought that writing a book would help him organize his thoughts so that he could eventually complete his dissertation. She was really putting off this dissertation. Write a book dissertation for sure. Bill hadn't considered marriage up to this point, but one day, while Mary was out, he was struck by inspiration and realized, I'm going to marry this woman.

11:05 He asked her. She said yes without hesitation, and they decided to pack up their things and had back to Utica, where Mary's family was. Before they got married, Bill talked to Mary about having an open marriage. It was the seventies, after all. Mary was not on board with this idea, and so Bill agreed their marriage would be a conventional exclusive marriage. Oh boy. After the wedding, they took off for the Hawaiian Islands, specifically Kawhi. They didn't have much money, and they were planning to hike and backpack and live off the land for as long as they could. They hiked into a remote area on the north side of the island, reachable only by helicopter or a hike of more than ten miles. They camped under a mango tree near a waterfall, and they both felt like it was paradise.

11:52 Dang, we have not done anything remotely back I know. They weren't thinking about the passage of time or anything else. They were just living and meditating and communing with nature. After about a month of this, Bill had another powerful flash of insight. He needed to finish his dissertation. He told Mary, and she agreed that it was time to go back to the real world. When they returned to Buffalo in nineteen seventy seven, Mary discovered that she was pregnant. It wasn't planned, but Bill and Mary were both thrilled. As Mary's pregnancy progressed, Bill buckled down and went to work on his dissertation on comparative mysticism, heading to the library almost daily. He set a goal of finishing it before the baby was born, and sure enough he did it.

12:35 Well, that's amazing. Leana was born in April of nineteen seventy eight. Bill got a job teaching first at Vassar College, about three hours away from Utica. He didn't love it at Vassar, and when a job pair came through town, Bill went and connected with some people from Furman University, a private university located in Greenville, South Carolina. They offered him a job, so Bill, Mary and baby Leanna packed up and moved down south. They bought a little farmhouse in the country, where Bill planted and grew a few marijuana plants. Oh my gosh, that's so weird because we're recording this on four twenty I know, how crazy, mostly for personal use, although he gave or sold some to a few of Mary's sisters, his own brother, and some friends. This experience with growing pot would later cause Bill problems as some people wanted to portray him as a big time drug dealer who was creating a super crop of marijuana. In nineteen eighty, Mary gave birth to a second daughter, Tamaran, also known as Tammy. While they were living in South Carolina. After teaching for three years, Bill talked to an old friend who said he was going to school to be a chiropractor. As Bill learned more about chiropractic medicine, he became intrigued. It seemed like a great fit with his personal beliefs about the balance between mind, body, and spirit.

13:56 Bill had his doubts about going back to school, though he was in his mid thirties by this point and chiropractic school would take him another four or five years. But one day he read a Dear Abbey advice column where someone had written in saying that he was thirty five years old and wanted to go to med school, but this person was concerned about being in his mid forties by the time he had finished the eight year program. Abby wisely replied, quote, how old will you be in eight years if you don't attend medical school. She's so wise that, dear Abbey. That was enough for Bill. He told Mary about his idea and she loved it. In fact, she said, I'll do it too, and we can become chiropractors together. So they have two kids and they're both like, oh, we're gonna I'm amazed, Like, yeah, they would go to school and raise their kids, and it's like, how did they find time to do all this?

14:45 How did they find the money to do it? Well? That too, Yeah, I think it was a different time. Once they finished their degrees, they moved back to Utica and put together a business plan. Out of that was born Chiropractic Family Care in nineteen eighty eight, where Mary and Bill worked together for the next twenty seven years until Mary's death in nineteen ninety two. Years after they moved back to Utica, Mary gave birth to their third and final child, a boy they named Adam. I love the name Adam. From there, we fast forward twenty five years to the summer of twenty fifteen. Leanna and Tameron are grown up and moved out. Leanna is a doctor living five hours away on Long Island, taking some time off her work as a general practitioner to raise her own four children. Tameron lives an hour away from Utica in Cooperstown. Adam is done with high school and going to college, but lacks direction. He would go to college for a couple of years, starting at the local community college, and then change his mind about his career direction, drop out, then go back and try something different.

15:46 Among the areas he studied were digital animation, theater, Chinese mathematics, and computer science. Quite the variety of right interests. For a while, Adam had worked for his parents and set their clinic, working the front desk, checking patients in, and doing general office management work. He could only work part time because of his schoolwork, so he suggested that his parents hire his girlfriend at the time, a young woman named Katie Connolly. Katie started their part time as well, and then in early twenty fourteen, when Adam decided he needed to focus on school, he told his parents they should hire Katie full time. They were reluctant at first because they knew Adam and Katie's relationship was a bit tumultuous and they didn't want any relationship drum in the office, but Adam assured them that they would keep a strict separation between the personal and professional. I have a feeling, because you're telling us this that it's not going to be so professional. I can't slip anything past. Eventually, Bill and Mary agreed, and twenty one year old Katie became their full time receptionist slash office manager. During the summer of twenty fifteen, Bill and Mary were starting to plan what was next for them. By this point, they had been running the clinic for twenty seven years. Mary was sixty and Bill was approaching seventy. They decided it was time to think about selling the business and retiring. Bill had already scaled back his hours. He worked Tuesdays and Thursdays only, still seeing patients, but less and less as time went on.

17:18 Their plan was to find someone qualified to take over the business, bring them in, and work with that person for a year or so before handing over the reins. Their biggest concern was their patients. They wanted to be sure they found someone that the patients liked and were comfortable with. In the short term, though, they were planning the vocation of a lifetime for September and October of twenty fifteen. The previous Christmas, their daughter Leanna had gifted them a week long cruise. Since they hadn't really taken a vacation since their honeymoon, they decided they would tack on an extra three weeks before the cruise and use that time to travel around Europe. During the summer of twenty fifteen, they were busy mapping out the trip in detail. They had a big calendar on the wall where they were building their itinerary, and they had arranged for a chiropractor friend of theirs to work at the clinic part time to see those patients who couldn't go a month without treatment. Life was as perfect as it could be. Bill later reflected financially, the Yoders weren't super well off when thinking about retirement. Their chiropractic business had always been more about helping people.

18:25 If someone couldn't pay, they would always work something out. The business would definitely generate some cash when they sold it, but probably not enough to retire on. In twenty ten, Bill published his second book, The Happy Mind, Seven Principles to Clear Your Head and Lift Your Heart. He sometimes held workshops and seminars, and also sold self help CDs. It was pretty small scale compared to the big self help gurus of the time like Tony Robbins, but it did generate a little extra income. Also, Bill had recently inherited four hundred thousand dollars from his father, but as he confided to his daughter Tameron, he wasn't sure whether they would have enough money for two people to live off of indefinitely. Monday, July twentieth, twenty fifteen, started as an ordinary day. Mary was going into the office as usual, and it was Bill's day at home to putter around and maybe run some errands. Bill kissed Mary goodbye, as he always did when she left for work. It was a beautiful day and Mary was planning to do some work in her garden after her work at the clinic was done. Patients who saw Mary that morning said she was her usual vibrant, energetic self. At lunchtime, she told Katie at the front desk that she was going to drive over and check on Grammy. That's how everyone referred to Mary's mother, who was ninety three years old. The office normally closed for an hour during lunch. Mary apparently didn't eat lunch with her mother though. Instead, when she got back to the office, she mixed a protein shake from Shackley Protein Powder and almond milk.

19:56 Mary was passionate about organic foods supplements and often would drink a shackly shake instead of lunch or as a pick me up in the afternoon. She was a rep for the company and sold their products in a little shop that was part of the clinic, along with pottery, books and herbal supplements. The last couple of patients who saw Mary at the end of that day noticed immediately that something was off. She seemed distracted, low energy, and she left the treatment room several times to use the bathroom, something she never did when she was working with patients. Around six thirty PM, Mary called home, as she usually did, to let Bill know that she was leaving the office.

20:36 When Bill was home, he would normally prepare something for dinner when Mary was on her way, but on this day Bill could tell that Mary wasn't herself. She told Bill she was feeling really sick and probably wouldn't want to eat. Mary hardly ever got sick, and when she did, she wasn't one to complain. As soon as Mary got home, she rushed to the bathroom to vomit. When she emerged after about thirty minutes, Bill's saw that she was pale and sweaty and barely able to walk. He helped her to the couch and brought a bucket over in case she had to throw up. Around nine thirty PM, she told Bill that she was going to sleep on the couch and hopefully feel better in the morning. At six thirty am, Bill came downstairs to check on Mary. She seemed the same, maybe even worse than the night before. She said she had hardly slept it all. She had been up all night with abdominal pains, vomiting, and diarrhea. Bill called their daughter, Leanna, who was a doctor. Leanna told Bill to take Mary to the er right away if nothing else, she was probably very dehydrated and would need fluids. At the emergency room, Mary was put on an IV to hydrate her. They ran several tests and gave her medication to help with the nausea and the diarrhea. The treatment helped a bit, and Mary spent much of the day dozing in and out of sleep. At one point, Mary asked Bill to run home and get her asthma medication because she was having some trouble breathing due to allergies, she thought. When Bill returned, he saw medical staff rushing around at Mary's bedside. They said she had been struggling to catch her breath and so they were giving her a nebulizer breathing treatment. They stabilized her and she seemed to be feeling slightly better, But

22:11 what was wrong with Mary? None of the tests that they ran on were giving clear answers. They decided to keep her overnight to monitor her condition. By evening, Mary seemed to be doing better, but her throat was so raw from vomiting that she had a hard time speaking. Although the doctors still didn't know what it was, they believed it would pass, and they told Bill there was no reason to be too concerned. It was probably some type of gastro intestinal bug, although there was also some speculation that it might be her gallbladder. Mary told Bill she was utterly exhausted, so he should go home, get some rest, and go to work in the clinic the next day, which was Wednesday, to cover for her so that they didn't have to cancel any of their patient's appointments. Bill promised to swing by in the morning on his way into the clinic to check on her. That night, Bill put his cell phone in the spare bedroom to check. That was normally what Bill and Mary did, and he didn't think much of it. Mary seemed like she was on the upswing when he left her that night, and her doctors didn't seem too concerned. But the next morning, he woke at five thirty am to a banging at the front door. Two state troopers were there, saying that the hospital had been trying to get a hold of him.

23:18 Mary had taken a turn for the worse overnight and she was in the ICU. I didn't know that a hospital would do that to reach someone. I didn't either. That surprised me as well, but I guess that's what they do. And also, if I was in the hospital, you probably would keep your cell phone on you. I would. I think it was just I don't think he was thinking about it. I think it was just one of those things that it was just what he normally did. Oh, you're always defending Bill, aren't you. Gets So Bill rushed back to the hospital, where doctors told him that Mary had fallen during the night and that her heart had stopped. They were able to resuscitate her, but it wasn't looking good. Bill was allowed to go into her room in the ICU. She was intubated, strapped to the bed, and had iv IS in her arm. She was awake and alert, but she couldn't talk or move.

24:03 She could just move her eyes, and she seemed terrified, not knowing what was happening to her. Bill spoke to her softly, telling her how much he loved her. Adam soon showed up at the hospital. He had been staying with his sister Leanna and her family down in Long Island for the past few days. When he heard about his mother's hospitalization the night before, he decided to make the five hour drive overnight, stopping at a friend's house to get a couple of hours of sleep before heading into the hospital. Bill called Leana and Tamarin that morning, telling them to come right away. Tammy lived only an hour away, so she got there in the morning, but for Leanna it would take around six hours with traffic. She left her house around six am. The only other person beyond immediate family who came to the hospital that day was Katie. Even though she and Adam were broken up at this time, they still talked regularly and she wanted to support him. Having worked closely with both Mary and Bill over the last couple of years. Katie was also devastated. Did Katie still work at the clinic? She did. Yeah.

25:02 During the course of that day, Mary flatlined six or seven times. Each time a team would rush in tell Bill, Adam and Tammy that they needed to leave, and then they revived Mary. Around two pm, Mary flatlined for about the seventh time that day. This time, doctors told Bill that although they were able to revive her again, her eyes were fixed and dilated, meaning that she was likely braindead. Soon after, though, the doctor checked on her again and found that she was once again responsive. He told Bill and the kids, quote, I don't know how this happened, but she's responsive again. You can all go in and see her. The doctor later said he had never seen anything like it. Bill felt like Mary was hanging on until Leanna got there, which she finally did around two twenty pm. A few minutes later, Mary went into full cardiac arrest, with her husband and all her kids by her bedside. Doctors were unsuccessful in attempts to revive her this time. Mary Yoder was pronounced dead at two fifty four pm on July twenty second, twenty fifteen. Oh my god, so within three days. She went from this virbrant, energetic, healthy picture of health and happiness to yeah, dead, I know, so shocking. Her children must have been shocked. Yeah yeah. The ICU doctors asked Bill if he would release Mary's body for an autopsy, and he agreed. Everyone wanted answers.

26:26 Just a few days earlier, Bill and Mary had been planning for retirement and the vacation of a lifetime, and now Mary was gone. What could cause a healthy, vigorous, sixty year old woman to suddenly get sick and die. Mary's body was taken to the Medical Examiner's office in Onondaga County and scheduled for an autopsy the next morning. We'll be back after a break. Most autopsies are relatively straightforward going into it. There's usually a pretty good idea of the cause of death, and the autopsy helps to confirm it. But in the case of Mary's death, it was truly a medical mystery. They knew she had suffered multiple organ failures over a twenty four hour period, which was very strange. The initial hypothesis going into the autopsy was ascending colinchitis, essentially an infection in the colon that finds its way into the liver and then the bloodstream, which can be fatal, but this was just a theory.

27:30 Doctor Kenneth Clark was assigned to conduct the autopsy. He requested all of Mary's hospital records and consulted with Mary's doctors, nurses, and family members. Leanna, being a doctor herself, became the intermediary between the medical examiner and the Yoder family. In the first phase of the autopsy, which is the external examination of the body, doctor Clark noted that Mary had several bruises and injuries on her body, but they were all apparently caused by her treatment, all the injections and the many times that she had to be revived by doctors, as well as the fall she took the night before she died. In the second phase, the internal examination, he noticed right away that some of her organs were strangely discolored. Her intestinal track was modeled red, green, and purple. Her liver was discolored, and so was her heart. I've never heard of this before. Doctor Clark had never seen anything like it in the more than thousand autopsies he had done in his career. For the third and final phase of the autopsy, doctor Clark took some tissue samples to examine under a microscope and also send out for toxicological testing. By August fourth, he had gotten a lot of the testing results back, but he still had no clear indication of what killed Mary. Doctor Clark gave Leanna an update that day.

28:51 Here's what he knew. One, the culture results didn't show any evidence of bacteria. Two, he had found evidence of apoptosis. Why did you give me this section with the autopsy results? It was very well planned part which is also known as programmed cell death or pre programmed cells suicide. While programmed cell death is going on in our bodies all the time, doctor Clark noted an excessive amount of cell death in nearly every organ he examined. He had never seen this in all the autopsies he had performed. The conclusion was that some outside source had entered Mary's system, injuring the cells and initiating a process of programmed cell death, which ultimately resulted in her death. In other words, her death was the result of some type of toxic exposure, not an infection. Leanna filled in the family if they wondered if Mary had come into contact with some type of toxin without knowing it. She was really into gardening, even though she took great care to do everything naturally and organically.

29:56 Was it possible that some pesticide or fertilizer had gotten into her system, or maybe the supplements she took somehow tainted her. They also wondered if Adam might have been exposed to the same toxin. A few months earlier, in April, Adam had gotten very ill, and his symptoms were similar to Mary's. He had recovered after three or four weeks, but it was the sickest he had ever been, even necessitating a trip to the er. At the time. When Mary's toxicology results came back, the mystery deepened. All of the usual toxins tested for came back negative. They sent out for additional tests of some less common toxins, including cyanide, arsenic, barium, and antimony.

30:41 Those all came back negative. They realized they must be dealing with something pretty rare. The problem was by this time Mary's body had been released by the medical examiner and cremated in accordance with her wishes, and there was very little blood left to test. The lab's toxicologist took doctor Clark, quote, whatever you want to test for next you should choose it carefully. Oh man, that's really autopsies. And we've had this happen in other cases where there's just not enough blood left to test. Yeah, and I'm sure, like as a medical examiner, you just don't think about it. You're like, yeah, we're gonna find out what it is and it's not going to be that hard. But yeah, it's crazy. Doctor Clark consulted with his boss, the chief medical examiner. They decided to take a walk across the street to the Upstate New York Poison Center and consult with the experts over there. After searching through their database looking for similar cases, one possibility that came up was a drug called cult scene. Did I say that right? It's an anti inflammatory drug, sometimes prescribed to treat out, and it can be fatal even in relatively small amounts of a few milligrams. So it's something that's deadly but prescribed. Well, I think like a lot of drugs are, you know, but you're saying that it's an extremely small amount that can be deadly here, right, so you know if you accidentally take an extra pill, you know, that could potentially kill you. Yeah, you should be really careful not to take an extra pill. Gout is a form of inflammatory arthritis,

32:15 which could be a reason people go in to see a chiropractor, so it seemed like a possibility that they might have the drug at the clinic and perhaps Mary had accidentally ingested it. They sent the last sample of Mary's blood to test for colchisine and sure enough, the results came back positive. Colchisceine was confirmed to be the cause of Mary's death, but the next question was how had it gotten into her system. On September eighteenth, doctor Clark told Leanna that they were certain that colchisceine was the cause of Mary's death, and that at this point they were considering it a possible case of accidental contamination. Bill gathered anything he could think of that Mary might have ingested, all of her supplements, her shackly protein powder, any food items that she had at the home and the office. He turned them all over to the medical examiner's office.

33:08 COLT scene works pretty quickly, so it's likely that Mary ingested it sometime on the day she first got sick, Monday, July twentieth. Bill texted Katie asking if she remembered any Patience bringing Mary something to eat or drink that day. Katie said no. She said that Mary had gone to her mom's at lunchtime, but she didn't think that Mary ate anything while she was there. She said that Mary had her protein shake made from her own protein powder and almond milk after she got back, along with her vitamins. Nothing new or different than her usual routine. Didn't you say that Bill cooked all their meals or than the day usually cooked dinner on the day she worked. Yeah. Three days after Mary's death, the family held the celebration of life gathering.

33:52 They chose to have it at Bill and Mary's home because Mary's garden was in full bloom. Over two hundred people showed up. Bill was having a hard time facing people after the sudden loss of his wife, and he stayed upstairs through much of the event. Bill's daughter Leanna didn't know how to console her dad, and she was worried that he might be suicidal. She suggested that her dad reach out to Mary's sister Kathleen to talk to her. Mary had been close to her older sister, and Kathleen had lost her husband unexpectedly about a year earlier, so she had been through what Bill was going through not so long ago. At the celebration of life, Kathleen gave Bill a letter in which she offered her support and said she was there if he wanted to talk. A few days later, Bill called her and then went over to Kathleen's house, which was nearby, to talk. He felt like it was helpful, and they made plans to get together again. Soon after that, Bill went out west with Adam for a few weeks to see family and just to get away from it all. He and Kathleen exchanged some texts during their trip, and when he got back home on August twenty fifth, he texted Kathleen quote, I've missed you over the last couple of weeks, and I'm looking forward to spending some time together. So God, Bill, you see where this is going. I mean, I keep going. In September, Bill and Kathleen's relationship turned romantic. Their texts became more flirty, and they started talking on the phone for hours. By early October, the two were in love in a time so Bill. In a text from October seventh,

35:23 Bill wrote, quote, sitting here with a glass of wine and your photo telling you about my amazing day. Your smile melts my heart, and I keep falling in love all over again. Unquote. If any of my sisters happened to be listening, don't go near my husband for at least, I don't know. I don't know what the right amount of time is because life is short. I mean Bill's seventies. He's seventy years old. Yeah, and I know that'll not not all men, but a lot of men have a hard time being alone. There's just a huge factor here, for there is a huge factor for By mid October, three months after Mary's death, the medical examiner was still working on the investigation and treating it as most likely an accidental poisoning. They hadn't gotten the police involved at all to this point. That changed on October fifteenth, when another of Mary's sisters, Sharon Mills, called the Oneida County Sheriff's office. Detective Mark van Nami took the call. Sharon asked him if anyone was investigating the death of Mary Yoder.

36:29 Van Nami hadn't heard the name before, and so he asked Sharon for some details. She provided the background and told him that the medical examiner had determined Mary's cause of death to be colchi sceine toxicity. After getting off the phone, Van nameI googled colchiscene and saw that it was pretty unusual to be used in a poisoning. He saw that it was difficult to purchase, which meant if someone had bought it, there would be a paper trail somewhere. Van Nami then reached out to the Medical Examiner's office, which told him that they hadn't ruled anything out yet, but they weren't really looking at it as criminal at this point. They agreed to stay in touch as things moved forward. Van Nami then talked to his lieutenant and they agreed it made sense to make a few preliminary inquiries while the medical examiner was continuing his investigation. Van Nami reached back out to Sharon and interviewed her further. He was very interested in Bill right off the bat, seeing as he was the spouse and also a doctor who might have access to a drug like colchi scene. Sharon told van nameI that Bill had a brilliant mind and that if he killed Mary they would never catch him. Van Nami also sent evidence preservation letters to Verizon related to Mary and Bill's phone numbers to ensure that nothing got deleted. He also did a database search for any life insurance claims that had been filed after Mary's death, but nothing came back. Nothing much happened in the next month. Near the end of November, there was a meeting between the two pathologists who had worked on Mary's case to Van Nami and his lieutenant and Lori Leasy, the

38:02 assistant district attorney. They spent three hours laying out all the facts that they currently had. After the meeting, Van Nami sent evidence preservation letters to UPS and FedEx regarding any shipments that they had made to the yoder's home or office. Again, they were thinking that because col chesine was a treatment for gout, maybe someone had ordered it to be delivered to the office. They were no further in determining whether this had been an accidental poisoning or an intentional homicide. But three days after their meeting on November twenty third, that all changed when an anonymous letter arrived at the Medical Examiner's office and an identical copy of the letter arrived at the police department. Uh oh. This letter was two typed pages. We won't read the entire thing, but here are the most relevant parts. Quote I know the police are currently looking into this death, but I don't know where it is send this information. This is in regards to the July twenty second death of Mary Yoda and Udica, New York.

39:07 If the toxin found in her was colch scene, Adam Yoder, her son, is responsible. He told me he did it, and moreover, he told me how and where he put the rest of the toxin. Adam drove back so early that day after her death, arriving in Utica at six thirty am, meaning that he left Long Island very early morning because she was in grave condition. Then it's weird that he drive down to Long Island and then go back north in the middle of the night, especially since he'd been so standoffish and just mean to her, telling her he functioned better by not seeing or talking to her. He felt she was unfamiliar to him, and he resented that she should have helped him more. I think what the letter writer is referring to. I didn't mention it, but Adam and his mother had a fight on Mother's Day. I don't think it was super consequential or super bad, but I think that's what the person is referring to is something to do with that fight. And then Adam had gone down to see his sister.

40:04 He was there in Long Island. He left like late at night to get back to her hospital bed early the morning that she ended up passing away. Well, she should have helped him more. Do you know what they're referring to just in life? I think, yeah, I think in general, the person writing the letter is saying that Adam was resentful that his mom didn't help him more. The letter continues, When I saw him a couple of days ago, he appeared agitated, and he said he was the reason for her death and he wished he could take it back. Then he said he got a bottle of Colchi sceine off online and put the toxin in one of her vitamins. When he was over at his parents' house, he said his mom noticed he seemed disturbed at the time, and she thought it was since he was drinking at their house. Adam said he told her, no, beer isn't not the reason that he was disturbed, and to drop it.

40:52 He said he apologized to his parents for ruining the holiday of Father's Day and left. I said they got a fight on they did. Apparently there was also a fight on father's and the mother's in father's finger thy tough, The letter continues, Adam was upset people weren't paying more attention to him. He felt he deserved more attention, and he thought people should be nicer to him. Same he acted resentful and belligerent to his immediate family and became visibly irritated people kept talking about his mom. He says he expected a financial payout after the death, which did not come. After he found out he was not getting the money he thought he would, he said he regretted what he did. He was hysterical and he didn't know what he was going to do, but he had ideas. He said that now the Colcha scene container is under the front seat of the jeep. Was that his jeep? That's where he said it was until he figures out where to put it or dispose of it next. I asked him to show me where he kept it currently, but he said no, but described a small glass bottle. I'm sending this anonymously because I can't keep this information. It is right to alert authorities, but it's still hard to do. I fear attaching my name to give the information. Right now, I'm very close to him, but what he did was wrong, and I believe he would be capable of repeating the act.

42:17 That's the end of the letter. The letter goes on to provide details of Mary's illness and death in order to add credibility. This was clearly someone that was close to this situation, like maybe, can I say yeah if you want to speculate, Katie. Investigators took DNA samples from those who handled the letter internally for elimination purposes, then sent the letter an envelope to the New York State Crime Lab for testing. Before receiving the letter, investigators still hadn't been sure whether a homicide had actually been committed, and if it had been the only person of interest so far was Bill Yoder. The letter changed everything.

42:59 Obviously, they would need to speak with Adam Yoder before calling Adam in though Detective van Nami first subpoenaed easy past records for Bill, Mary, and Adam Yoder to see where they were at at various times around Mary's illness and death. He also attempted to get a search warrant for Adam's vehicle, but it was denied by the judge. The precedent was that anonymous information is presumed to be false, so it would require additional corroborating information in order to get a warrant. Investigators also did some basic research on both Bill and Adam, where they lived, what vehicles they drove, things like that. They also learned that Bill and Mary had two other kids, Leanna and Tammy, and that Mary had several siblings. Do we know how many siblings Mary had?

43:50 She was the third of eight children. That's right, there were six girls and two boys. Yes. Then they started interviewing people. Typically, if you have some persons of interest, you don't start with them right away. You start further out and work your way toward the persons of interest. Is that you're your own personal experience there with the police price, Yes, as a long time invested year, that's the way I usually run the case. In this case, Bill and Adam were the two primary persons of interest, so first detectives interviewed Leanna, who confirmed that Adam had been at her house in Long Long Island starting a few days before Mary got sick and left late the night before Mary died. The Easy Past records were consistent with this as well. They also interviewed Bill and Mary's other daughter, Tammy, Mary's siblings, and some of Mary's friends, and the patients who saw her on the day she became ill. No one could come up with any reason why someone would want to murder Mary. Everyone loved her. You could say there's something about Mary, I guess you could. They also learned from their interviews that Bill was now in a relationship with Mary's sister Kathleen, which he raised some eyebrows, including my own. By December eighth, they were ready to talk to Adam. Detective Van Name called him up, explained who he was, and said they'd like to speak with him. Adam said I'll be right there, and he showed up within an hour. Van Nami was curious whether Adam would show up in his jeep Wrangler, which is where the anonymous letter writer

45:21 said the leftover colchia scene was stored, and sure enough, he did. After going through some basic background questions, Detective Van Name he told Adam about the letter. He didn't give a lot of details, but he said that the letter led them to believe there was evidence of the crime in his vehicle and asked Adam if he would allow them to check the specific spot under the front seat of his car. Adam hesitated. He said, quote, I want to be more than cooperative with you, but I'd like to talk to an attorney before I consent to this search unquote van nameI asked if he had an attorney in mind, and Adam said no, So the detective offered to get a public defender that Adam could consult with. Adam spoke with the public defender on the phone in private for ten minutes, and then he agreed to the search. Adam van Nami and a forensic technician went out to the vehicle.

46:12 There was a ton of garbage and rubbish on the floor of the vehicle. Apparently Adam was a big slob, but the forensic technician reached under the front passenger seat with a gloved hand and immediately pulled out a small glass bottle wrapped in cardboard, along with a wadded up receipt for the purchase of one gram of colchissine one hundred and eighty nine dollars and twenty two cents from a company called Art Chemicals, shipped to Bill and Mary's office address in early February of twenty fifteen. The ship to company name on the receipt was Cairo Family Care, slightly different from the actual business name, which was Chiropractic Family Care. The receipt also contained an email address for the person who ordered the colchisine, mister Adam Yoder nineteen ninety at gmail dot com. On st seeing a glass bottle and the receipt, Adam said, quote, I've never seen that before. It was certainly put there by someone else. Unquote. Oh wow, this is real mystery, isn't it. It really is. It's a little weird that the anonymous letter knew exactly where the chemical was. That is a little weird, isn't it. Also one hundred and eighty nine dollars for one gram. That's really precise, not cheap. The receipt and the email address on the receipt were solid leads for the investigators to follow. They called the company Art Chemicals and confirmed that the mister Adam Yoder nineteen ninety email address was used as the primary point of contact for the Colcha scene purchase. Detective

47:44 Van Nami then issued a subpoena to Google for information about the mister Adam Yoder nineteen ninety Gmail account. A subpoena would provide some basic information about the account, where when it was created, and the IP addresses that were used for logging in logging out. The subpoena results came back and showed the IP addresses, but to get more detail on the physical location of those IP addresses, they would have to issue additional subpoenas, which would take some time. Well at this point, investigators were still focused on Bill and Adam, but they felt like the anonymous letter and the col Chia scene in Adam's jeep were most likely an attempt to frame him. Adam had been very cooperative and it didn't make sense that he would drive his jeep to the police station knowing that the murder weapon was sitting under the front seat, and there's no way he would have consented to a search knowing the Colchi sceine was there. Investigators wondered about Bill's relationship with Kathleen, which they had learned about in their interview with Bill's daughter Leanna. Did the relationship really start over a month after Mary's death or could it have started before Mary died. Either way, the relationship looked bad for Bill and made him a leading suspect. But what kind of father would commit a murder and then try to frame his son with an anonymous letter that would have to be one cold hearted dad? Was that a foreshadow? I'm trying to keep you guessing here. I hope I'm doing a good job of it. I am no. I didn't even think about the relationship between Bill

49:15 and Kathleen started before her death. I'm so nicive, are yeah. Another person whose name came up in the interview with Leanna was Katie Conley. She was the office manager at the chiropractic clinics, so it's likely that she would have signed for any packages. Also, she was the only other person working at the office the day Mary got sick. She knew the inner workings of the office, and she and Adam had dated, although they were broken up at the time of Mary's death. Police decided to call Katie in for an interview before they interviewed Bill. On December eighteenth, Detective Van Nami called Katie and asked if she could come in. They said they needed her help as they prepared to interview Bill. They wanted to understand how things worked at the office, especially regarding shipping and receiving, the dynamic between Bill and Mary, and what took place on the day that Mary became ill. She came in and spoke with investigators for a couple of hours on the eighteenth and again on the nineteenth. She struck the detectives as forthcoming and eager to help. She gave them a recap of her relationship with Adam, Mary's schedule on the day she got sick, and what patients were seen that day. Katie told him that she was aware that some type of toxin had killed Mary, but hadn't heard what it was. Detective and Amy told her it was a drug called colchiscene. Katie said that she had never heard of it. Katie confirmed that she most likely would have signed for any packages coming into the office. They

50:45 asked if Adam had ever received packages at the clinic, knowing that his name had been on the colchis scene order. She said yes, there had been a couple of times. Once in twenty fourteen he had ordered an iPad or an iPhone and had it delivered to the office, and once in early twenty fifteen a package had come address to Adam Yoder and he had come to pick it up. They also asked what email addresses she had for Adam. She knew of a couple of different email addresses. One was similar to the mister Yoda nineteen ninety email but without the nineteen ninety on the end, and the other was very different. Over the next couple of days after their initial interview with Katie, some interesting new facts came in from lab testing and subpoenas.

51:29 First, the initial DNA testing of the envelope that contained the anonymous letter showed that there was female DNA on the stamp. Second, they were starting to get results on the locations of the IP addresses where the mister Adam Yoder nineteen ninety Gmail account had been accessed, and one of those results came up as the Conley residence, where Katie lived with her parents. We need music sometimes, I don't know. Can you explain how IP addresses work really quickly? I mean, an IP address is like a physical It's like a address for a physical device. So if you can trace something back to an IP address, you know what device that it was on. And so if it was on your home computer and you can find out what the IP address is, you can say, oh, this happened on that computer. So in this case, it was they found out that this Gmail address was accessed from the computer in Katie's home. Okay, essentially, I'm computer literate, illiterate, and that just all confuses me. That's part of the problem with this case is a lot of the evidence is based on computer forensics and it is super confusing. I am computer literate. It confuses me as well. So it's not necessarily the geographical location, but the device from which it came. Yes.

52:51 Up to this point, the police had looked at Katie as a good source of information on the dynamics of the Yoder's clinic and relationship. Now they wondered if she was somehow involved. They were scheduled to interview Bill Yoda for the first time on December twenty third, but they decided to try and get Katie in one more time before that. She came in on December twenty first. After recapping some of the things they had discussed previously, Van Nami came around to the email address and the IP address. She said that if the email had been accessed from her house, it must have been Adam that did it. He had been to her house many times and would have access to her devices. Were they on good terms Adam and Katie, It depends on when you asked that question. Like over time, they were on good terms, bad terms. It was up and down. As Van Nami heard Katie pointing the finger at Adam, his thoughts went back to the anonymous letter.

53:46 He asked, Katie, did you write us that letter? At that question, she got visibly shaky and started crying. Eventually she managed to say, I am so scared you can't protect me. Van Nami said, quote, Katie, you might be our only witness if you wrote us a letter in November. I need to know. Finally, Katie answered yes, She said she did write the letter. I knew it. That was the point. Van Nami later said that Katie went from being a witness to being a suspect. They decided from that point on any interactions with her would be recorded and she would be given her Miranda rights. Prior to speaking with her, the detective stepped out of the room after Katie admitted to writing the letter, giving her a break. That that break, they always give you that break to Anilia. During that break, investigators got word back that another IP address where the Gmail account had been accessed from was verified it was Katie's cell phone.

54:45 After the break, they came back to question Katie more after reading her her Miranda rights. They still tried to play it off as if Adam was their primary suspect and they were looking for Katie's help, but the questions became more direct. At this point. We were able to get the audio of this interrogation, and we're going to play a few clips for you. Here they are talking about Katie's cell phone being used to log into the Gmail account. And again, I still have a big problem. We still have to clear you because right now we got that uh Gmail account that somehow is a tract attack attached to you, right, and I'm afraid that it's never gonna be attached to Adam. M m. Yeah, you keep saying that. Well, I'm not saying it won't be. I mean, you're s you're Tom.

55:30 But right now we definitely want have to fasten this phone in your house, right mkay. Now, there's no control for this phone. Only you do. So we know you went in. He logged into that that account. There's no saying as about about that. We know that there's no way. There's no other physical way. You had to enter a password, you had to log into it. Okay, agree, mkay. There's no other way. He can't do that. He's not here. He doesn't have access to your phone, right, I don't think so, No, he can't there We've checked. There's no way you can get into your phone if he's not here. You'd have to fuse. You can't dive into it, be anywhere else. You can't get into your phone, can't do it. So that that's you verifying it, right, So we know you're the one that lobs into this Gmail account, this account you said, yous uh, you you don't. That's the thing. When we ask more specific questions about the Gmail account, you kind of distance yourself from You're not giving us track good answers. I'm said, mkay, but those when you set it up.

56:21 When did you set up that account? I didn't set it up, mkay. But yeah, you know how to log in and get the password to it, right, I know the pest it. Okay, So who set it up? Well? I you know some of Adam's other passives too, he knows. M Okay. That doesn't mean that you set up each other's accounts. Okay, I understand you don't set up each other's accounts, but you get into this account though, right, mkay, it's like I'm getting the wine. Okay, you're saying you had to log into that account in and log and shut it down, right, we know you did that for that far. The sad's a bunzett about it, right, so we know what's got into from your house. Also, you lock into that account, you have to use a password and you have to get into it. So now the question comes going back further when we get these Idea addresses. If it comes of the IDA addresses come back to you, we're gonna get come and say, Okay, what's again. You're logging into these account You're telling us you want they can do the Gmail account, but yet you do correct.

57:19 So that's what I'm saying. You gotta help us with that Gmail. Can you dissonance yourself from that Gmail. I'm trying, Okay, I don't want you to, but you can't tell us about that account. You can hear Katie getting frustrated there, trying to explain away the evidence that she accessed this Gmail account both at home and on her cell phone. At the end when she says I'm trying to help, the sound that you hear is her slamming her water bottle down on the table. Here's another short clip of her getting frustrated and the cops trying to convince her that they're really after Adam and Bill. You gotta give us answers to some of these questions. Okay, Well, you're gonna have to let us know because we have to be comfortable with you to move on to Adam and to building. Right, mkay.

58:07 No one likes a mumbler, Katie. Investigators wanted Katie to take a voice stress test, and she said that she was willing, but she had to leave here. They are talking about that, will you can you do this for me? Is there any chance I'd get you to do it? Like right now? Yeah? No, I don't think right now? Why what is more important than what we're talking about? Well, I think I've I've told you a lot and now like it's coming back on me, like everything's coming back on me. I have has who has the got other guys? Okay, Well, I think you can appreciate, like what position I'm in, Okay, And I'm nervous and I'm scared, and I'm supposed to be somewhere at four o'clock or were supposed to be afore, I sup to the friends. Well, I was supposed to be at like a family Christmas event, okay, and then I'm supposed to be supposed to be my own family at six Okay. Well, I so you're telling me you won't do it now or is it? Will you come back and do it? Yeah, I'll come back, but tomorrow I don't come back. I don't know when I'm trying to get to the bottom of this party and get get you out of the way. I know, you know what I mean. You're not helping me right now. I'm trying to and I I feel like I'm being like put under a microscope and wind it a well, you have a lot of information and that's what we needbody, you know, but I feel like

59:37 nothing is being helpful and it's just like coming back on me. Did I say it was coming back on you? I know, but I feel like it is. And I don't like that. Okay. No one likes a whiner, cade she does come off as a really windy I think it's super interesting listening to this though, especially the the cops are. You know, they're really trying hard to be like, k hey, we're just trying to get you to help us because we need to nail Adam and Bill and you know, you just that that's all we're trying to do here. And when she was read her Miranda right, she should have asked for an attorney and probably shut it down. Yes, So last clip I want to play of this interrogation. This is a really interesting moment when they're talking about the murder weapon the culture scene and Katie makes a very odd observation. It is possible that somebody planted that because I can tell you right now and the FBI studies and everything that we went back on, guys don't hang out in the murder weapon because that's why they get caught. They they say it's the lady's weapon.

1:00:45 Yeah, so I know it's very faint there, but she says, guys also don't use poison. They say it's a lady's weapon. It was funny because I was gonna mention that, Yeah, it's a really strange thing to say if you're in Katie's position right there. But what motive would Katie possibly have? Well, that is a great thing that we should discuss in part to this. Sorry, I know, I know it's a little bit of a Cliffhanger. We're starting to get somewhere on the case. But yeah, we're gonna have to wrap up and talk about it more next time.

1:01:30 Before we wrap up, I have a little a little thing I want to share with you. So we've discussed in the past our theme music. We did a little bit of a poll to our listeners and they all love the very unscientific poll, by the way, so we're not going to change our theme music. But today there was a new site that popped up. You know there's all these AI sites like chat, GPT. Well, a new one popped up the other day that I was really interested in, and it's a AI music generation thing and I was like, this is pretty crazy. I think it was called udo udio dot com. And so the first thing I did, of course, is I said, make me a love Mary Kill theme song. Yeah, and so I have three little theme songs I want to share with you. What it does is I get to pick one and then we can have the We could talk about them all, but I think we should still stick with what we have. But what it does is it generates like a thirty second little clip of a song, and if you want, you can then go back and extend it or whatever. But did you feed it our theme music? No? I didn't feed it. All I said was generate a theme song for a true crime podcast called Love Mary Kill with Rich and Tina as the host. So the first one I'm gonna play is heavy metal. It's gonna sound a little bit nine inch nails.

1:02:40 Ish, you're not gonna like it, but okay, here it is. Are you ready? Yeah? That's horrible. Tales of twist finds, right, you know? Rich? The vys was pretty good, huh. I mean I don't hate it as much as I should. Pretty chill. I think I just like my name there. That's all a I generated. I mean, honestly, it blows me away. It's freaking amazing. Yeah.

1:03:30 I think you're gonna like the next one a little bit more. It's a little more pop. I'm more of a pop girl for sure. Here you go, So listen. Details so chilling, where the hats collide, the plots, if the glands would kill you surely know who's in Love Mary now? The sirs, thestress just that's pretty good, huh. I mean I love them. That's totally like my my yeah from back in the day.

1:04:13 But they didn't say her name. They didn't say her name. No, it was good. It was pretty good. Now I forgot to mention they Also it also gives names to the songs that creates. So the first one was called Nuptial Reaper, that one was called Whispers of Guilt, and the last one I'm gonna play It's shocking, It is shocking. Last one I'm gonna play is my favorite. It's called Tales Untold Ready all right, Yeah, here the stories on the cast tailstow Dog, the Us, the bath Cats, the clues you won't ignore you love Mary kelats this door, Julian, Now, don't make the thrill. We got stories down, still dive in people with diver scale Mary, the bit of Bill, Well, I think it's a dundee. Is that amazing? I'm like blown away, Like honestly, it's a little scary, and so I don't. I guess the ownership of music is always such an issue. Who is that unownable? I guess we steal it, is my question. Oh yeah, we generate it, we can use it, all right, let's do it. Well, let us know what you think of those Those are really I really enjoyed all of them, really, they're yea cute and boppy. And that's when I talk about our theme music. I think that's what I'm looking for, is more music and less, you know, just that violent sound. Just my opinion. I was greatly over rolled, and I put my tail between my

1:05:47 legs and I still would not voting for vote for changing our music. I think that was really fun. Though people do identify strongly with music, but I thought those were all really cool. Yeah, very cool and frightening and horrifying. Actually, listeners, you don't even know if this is the real Richian Tina right now, or maybe just maybe AI generated version of ourselves, complete with mispronunciations, stuttering, and you never know, because the AI versions of ourselves would have to be imperfect because we're very well, No, you're lovely, I'm a disaster. No, you're lovely. Also, when I shared that music generation site with our son, who likes to create music on his own, impressed, he went into an existential depression, he really did.

1:06:38 I feel bad for everyone. But you know, young people today trying to come up with careers, know who knows what jobs are going to be available and what aren't. It's it's been Yeah, I think both are both our children and are struggling with that. On that happy note, until next time, don't kill your wait and eat a chip wich. I'm gonna call it a chip, which even I know that sandwich it was really good because there was zero nutritional value. And you know I love an empty calorie. But you hat snack some cheese and onion chips? Well, I think any any chip, I don't think the cheese and onion really added. And I think i'd prefer a plane I would prefer a plane chip. But yeah, just some white bread and lots of butter and some potato chips. Lunch yea.

1:07:28 Thanks, you're introducing kids lunchbox this week and let us know what you like. Do that. Okay, until next time, don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife. I am rich. Sorry one more time, I am rich. Hi, Tina, I am rich, Oh God, Hi, I am rich. We could just okay, if this next one we screw up, we just leave it, okay,