Michele and Martin MacNeill - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing that we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's. That some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hi Rich, Hi Tina. How are you? I am great? How are you doing? Actually a couple of professional podcasters who are meeting for the first time. Yes, it's good to meet you. It's a beautiful day here in southeast Michigan. But it's chili.

0:41 It's tired of being coal. I don't want to complain, but I would just like to be one complain. I'm going to so. I don't know if we talk about this a lot. But Rich is a baby. I am a big baby when it comes to call, Well, you're a baby when it comes to heat. I would much prefer to be too warm where you would prefer. To be chilly with a blanket. Yeah, but we are getting there, and we is a gorgeous day outside that Yes, I was just putting together a cushion came for our chase lounge and oh my gosh, it's like I was going to say, eight feet Yeah, No, I think it's probably about eight feet long to try to stick a cushion inside of the Oh. My gosh, that sounds like it should be easy, but it's. The best work out I've had in a long time. Well that's good then, So this.

1:21 Year my goal for us is for you to be able to quit your daytime job, which we're still quite a waste from. You shouldn't say that out loud because I might have people from my job listening. I don't think they did well. We're a ways from that. But we want to keep growing the podcast, and one of the best ways for us to do that is when you guys leave us reviews. So I thought maybe we would inspire people to leave us a review by reading a couple of the really sweet reviews that we've gotten recently. Favorite true crime podcast. I've listened to every episode. It's that good, great cases, good perspectives, well researched. But what sets this podcast apart is Rich and Tina. They're both so lovely. Relationship is just beautiful, two really great humans who make a really great partnership. I just seemed to figure out if I can send them a snack sometime.

2:08 Ah. So sweet, Yeah, it is so sweet. So many people have reached out recently saying I'd love to send you a snack. You know where can I send the snack to? You can send a snack to LMK pod po Box one one one, Dexter, Michigan four eight one three zero, or you can always message us. But I always feel guilty when people send us snacks. So generous it costs so I. Know it costs so much to ship. So I've been telling people recently you can always just send me a favorite recipe and I'll just make the recipe. But I mean, if you want to send us a snack, go ahead and send us a snack. We always appreciate that. But such a sweet review, very very sweet. Well, I've got another one that I thought was really sweet from Watermel Andrea. Her headline on the review is love Tina Mary Rich kill no One, and she says, I love love, love love that turns to murder more than my murder. I love a married couple who are actually friends tell me about murders, and Rich are so genuine.

3:01 It's not forced, it's not emotionless, it's not fake sadness or outrage. There's more, but she closes with this is my favorite Murder Anything. It tops all other podcasts, any documentary, even Dateline and twenty twenty. Rich and Tina are my friends. They make me smile and cry daily and I want all of what they have going on. That's so nice. Cear me up all the time. It doesn't take much, as you know, to make me cry. So thank you so much for your generous words and your support. It means everything to us. If you want to leave us a review, it's it's tricky because those reviews that we just read are from Apple Right and Spotify. You can't leave reviews, but you can give us a rate.

3:41 You can give us a rating, or you can leave a comment on an episode. That's true and we love to share your see your comments. Yeah, but with if you go to Apple Podcasts, that's really the best place to leave a review because you can actually leave a review like the ones we just read, and it's we really do appreciate it and it really does help us a lot. Yes, thank you so much. Our lovely listeners sent a recipe that they wanted me to make for you, and I made that for you today. Thank you so much, Anne with an E for recommending this recipe. They are called Shirley Temple Bars. M sounds good. So you have women all over the United States and the world that are thinking about you all the time. So Anne's like, oh, rich is going to love this recipe, and our listener who left the review wants to marry you, And people wonder why we don't post pictures. It's because you are so handsome, so devastatingly handsome, that women everywhere You're going to be people's hall passes. And so yeah, yeah, but back off, sisters, He's taken.

4:41 I am. I'm happily married. Sorry, ladies. Okay, do you want to try this Shirley Temple bar? I sure do. Wait, do you want me to describe it for you? It's it's a little like cherry chip can. It looks like. Others chopped up Maraschino cherries, and there's a little bit of lime zest in the cake. But cool. Yeah, it's really good. What did you think of the Shirley Temple Bars. I loved it, A very cherry chip cake, like I think it's really really good. There is no almond extract in it. And because you're a little baby and you don't like cream cheese, I made a simple butter cream, and I appreciate the cherry juice in it. I really wanted to make the cream cheese for us.

5:23 I was going to ask you if there was cream cheese in the frosting before I tasted it, and then when I tasted it, I knew that there wasn't, So yeah, thank you for that. In general, I will not make you eat cream cheese, although I love it so much. The sacrifices I have made. For you, well, thank you so much, Anne with an E for sending that recipe. A really really good recipe. What would you rate it from one to ten? Ten out of ten? Okay, I would give it probably an eight and a half or a night But yeah, I think they're really yummy. I just have a very strict crating scale. Today we're going to tell you the story of Michelle and Martin McNeil. This is an infamous case. A lot of people have probably already heard it, but hopefully we will give you a new perspective and tell you some things that you didn't know about the case before.

6:05 I am not at all familiar with it. I have been dying to tell you this case. All quotes, unless otherwise noted, come from Shanna Hogan's twenty fifteen book The Stranger She Loved a Mormon doctor his beautiful wife in an almost perfect murder excellent book. On Wednesday, April eleventh, two thousand and seven, around noon, in the quiet gated community of Creekside Grove and Pleasant Grove, Utah, thirty five miles south of Salt Lake City, Michelle McNeil, fifty was found unconscious in her Jacouzi bathtub, wearing nothing but a long sleeved black T shirt and her Mormon undergarments. Fresh surgical wounds dotted across her eyelids, and scalp from her recent facelift leading into her blonde hair that was splayed into the water. Michelle's husband of nearly thirty years, Martin fifty one, walked into the bathroom after his six year old daughter Ada, had found her mother. Shocked and harp Broken to see his wife in such a condition, he yelled out, help, please, somewhat help. He struggled to lift her still slick body out of the tub. He sent Ada to their neighbor's house, the Daniels, to ask for help. Martin, a physician, was still wearing his lab coat as he tried to lift his wife from the tub. Feeling helpless, he called nine one one. Christy Daniels ran into the McNeill's house, surveyed the situation, and then ran back out to get more help. She jogged to Angie Aguilar's house and told her to come quickly. Michelle was in trouble.

7:31 As she sprinted back to the mcneills, she called her husband, Doug, who was helping another neighbor with the basement remodel. Martin needs help, hurry, Christy yelled into the phone. When Doug arrived, he helped to pull Michelle from the tub. Her lips were blue, her skin gray and lifeless. Green mucus covered her face. The men set her on the ground and Martin and Christie started CPR. As Martin tried to breathe life into his wife, he repeated, Oh my God, Oh my God, Why all this for a stupid surgery? Shouldn't have done this. He asked Christy to go wait for the ambulance. Doug stood by, watching, waiting to jump in and help. He noticed that when Martin blew into Michelle, her chest didn't rise, but he didn't say anything because he assumed a doctor would know what he was doing.

8:15 Martin made a fist and hit Michelle hard in the chest, just as two officers appeared in the doorway to the bathroom. Why God, why, Martin began talking to the officers. I'm I'm her husband. I've found her in the bathtub. She just had surgery, she had a face lift, she was on a lot of medication. She may have slipped or fallen. As the e MTS took over CPR, Michelle's skin began to pink and slightly, and she made faint, gurgling noises, and suddenly she spewed a large amount of liquid from her lungs several cups. As the medics continued their life saving efforts, Michelle expelled foamy blood tinged fluid, but she still had no heartbeat. They didn't give up. The first responder started an IVY and administered epinephrine and other medications in an attempt to restart her heart. Bart And looked up as if to the heavens and yelled, after all I've done for you, after all the time I've spent in church, Why why have you done this to me?

9:08 He ranted. I've been a bishop, I've paid tithing and this is the way you repay me. This is what I get for it. I apologize for my dramatic reading of this, but he was very unhinged. He was screaming and yelling, and you could just picture him like waving his arms and this dramatic, over the top past. I can get a sense from it from your dramatic reading. When the EMTs asked him to talk to the doctor at the hospital on the phone who was awaiting Michelle, he refused and yelled, I'm a doctor, I know she's dead. I chose not to play the nine to one one call because he was screaming in at the phone. He was overwrought with emotion and he was very unhinged. I'm curious if our listeners prefer when we play them or not. I feel like they're polarizing. Yeah, sometimes people want to hear them and sometimes they don't. But what to this scene?

9:54 What stands out to you? Well, his reaction stands out to me. I mean it seems like a harrowing scene and you bringing the neighbors and a lot of people coming in and trying to help, and then having like this liquid expel from her lungs, like makes me think oh she was, it was still possible to save her. I'm not a EMT or a doctor, but it seems like if you know, they were able to get this liquid out of her lungs, that seems like maybe there was a hope of saving her. And if he was a doctor, it feels like he maybe didn't do as much as he could have. That's a really good point. I'm not sure if that's true or not. I think if someone has already passed, you can still get if you're doing CPR correctly, Yeah, the liquid will still be expelled from their lungs.

10:36 Yeah, that makes sense. But as a doctor, yeah, he should have The liquid should have come out when he was doing CPR if he was doing it correctly. People said that she had I think drowning victims off and have like this mucus on their face, and none of it had transferred to his face, so he wasn't breathing correctly. Well, and you mentioned I think that the neighbor didn't see her chest moving up and down when he was breathing into her, which sounds like a little bit of a clue to me that maybe he wasn't doing quite what he should have done. It's heartbreaking to think that she could have been saved had he been performing CPR correctly. But also when he was yelling at God, that was interesting to me too. And he still has his lab coat on. I think most doctors, before you leave the office, you would remove your lab coat. I would to me, it indicates that maybe he knew that if he had this lab coat on when the EMTs were coming in the room, that you know, he they would know that he was a doctor and her. Yeah, like he might have been acting here and the things that he was yelling to God, it seems like it's a transactional relationship, you know, when he's like, God, why would you be doing this to me? Yeah?

11:44 And I feel like that's really not the way that you should look at your relationship. Right. While EMTs took Michelle to the nearby American Fork Hospital, the police began questioning Martin. He said he'd left her alone for only a few minutes fifteen at most, and when he'd he found her bent over the side of the tub, her face submerged in a tub filled with water. This is a scene that the people that came into the room said that she was submerged, but that. Martin said that she was draped over the side of the tub, so that's really it's confusing. Michelle arrived at the hospital at twelve twenty four pm. The attending physician noted lividity in Michelle's lower body and knew any attempts at resuscitation were likely futile, but he continued the effort. Martin McNeil showed up a few minutes after Michelle and continued to scream to the heavens, why did she do this? I told her not to do this. He was belligerent and in the way. Security was called to remove him from the er. After thirty eight minutes, life saving measures were seized and Michelle McNeil fifty was declared dead. Before he was removed, Martin begged the doctor to continue CPR. I'll give you ten thousand dollars to keep going, he pleaded.

12:53 Once again, as a doctor, he would probably know that money is not going to help solve this. Yeah, and they had worked on Michelle for probably at least an hour at her house and then thirty eight minutes in there. Or so, And you mentioned lividity too. That takes a while for that to set in. So yeah, it's clear that there was no hope at that point. Michelle Marie Summers was born on January fifteenth, nineteen fifty seven. She grew up in a large family in Concord, California, about thirty miles east of San Francisco. Michelle was one of seven children born to Helen and Milton Somers. Michelle was the youngest of four sisters, Susan, Terry, and Linda, and she also had three older brothers, Stephen, Richard, and Mick.

13:33 Helen Summers was just seventeen when she gave birth to her first child, Stephen. For the next twenty years, she was most often pregnant or nursing. Milton worked in various sales jobs. He was an alcoholic and not a present nurturing father, though the Summers kids remember a mostly happy childhood. Growing up in the Mormon church, Michelle was a pretty girl with long blonde hair and bright blue eyes. Her sisters called her the princess of the family, but Michelle preferred client trees and playing outside to playing dress up. People were drawn to Michelle for her natural, unfettered beauty and kindness. She loved school and learning and was a straight A student. She played the violin, dance ballet, acted in plays, and learned French. In high school, she was a cheerleader and voted homecoming queen. During her senior year, she spent a semester in Switzerland as a foreign exchange student.

14:24 After she graduated in nineteen seventy five, she worked as a model and competed on beauty pageants. In nineteen seventy six, she won the Miss Concord pageant. The next year, Michelle's parents divorced. After the divorce, Helen and her youngest daughters moved to Mission Viejo. Milton remarried, but Helen never did. In nineteen seventy seven, while attending a singles event at church, Michelle met a handsome young man named Martin McNeil. Born on February first, nineteen fifty six, to Lillian Woody and Albert McNeil. Martin had a rough beginning. He was raised in extreme poverty in ca Hampden, New Jersey, alongside his two older brothers, Rufus and Albert Junior, his younger brother Scott, and his two sisters, Alice and Mary. Albert, a Navy veteran, was twenty three years older than Lillian, he was fifty eight years old when Martin was born.

15:16 The mcneils fought often and hard, leading Albert to leave the family and relocate to Long Beach, California. Years later, as a teenager, Martin joined his father there, where he completed high school. The trauma of their childhood cast a long shadow over the lives of the McNeil siblings. Two died by suicide, one from complications related to alcoholism and another from a heroin overdose. Oh it's really devastating. Only Martin and his sister Mary, who also moved to California and married there, seemed to break free from the cycle, although later Martin's life would fall apart two in a different way. Despite his dysfunctional upbringing, Martin excelled in school and devoured books of all genres. He discover a love for acting, appearing in plays during high school. Handsome but socially awkward, Martin's classmates found him quirky and off putting, earning him the nickname Martin the Martian. Behind the scenes, he struggled with depression and difficulty regulating his moods, and as a teenager he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The diagnosis intrigued him, and he decided to study psychiatry. In nineteen seventy three, at just seventeen years old, Martin lied about his age to enlist in the Army. During his time in the military, his mental health began to deteriorate.

16:35 He started hearing voices and became increasingly aggressive toward his fellow soldiers. Concerned, his superiors sent him for psychiatric evaluation, where he was labeled a latent schizophrenic. After serving two years, Martin was discharged from the army. Although he had never been particularly religious, Martin became involved with the Mormon Church after his stint in the army. He quickly grew deeply commited and decided to serve a mission, but once again his plans were derailed by his mental health struggles. After only a few months, he was sent home due to concerns about his mental instability. Martin then enrolled at Saint Martin's University in Olympia, Washington to study psychology. He graduated in nineteen seventy seven in just two years, with dual degrees in sociology and psychology. Two years for completing dual degrees, that's pretty amazing, Okay, After graduation, he moved in with his sister Mary in Mission Viejo. After watching a segment on Sixty Minutes about check fraud, Martin attempted a similar scheme.

17:40 He obtained a man's birth certificate, secured a forged driver's license, and opened a checking account in the man's name. To avoid suspicion, he dressed in expensive designer clothing and proceeded to go on an extravagant shopping spree, spending about thirty five thousand dollars nearly two hundred thousand dollars today on furniture, designer clothing, jewelry, and other luxury items. He was eventually arrested and charged with fourteen felonies, including identity theft. Martin pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, citing his schizophrenia diagnosis. He was still facing those legal troubles when he met Michelle Summers. I'm just going to say, if you see a sixty Minutes and you see a story about a crime being committed, that's probably not the best idea. To say, what a great idea, I'm going to go and commit the same crime.

18:30 I remember seeing his sixty Minutes about people who developed some sort of special system to win the lottery. And then I was like, I'm going to win the lottery. If they can do it, I can do it. But you didn't. I think you have to be good at math to do ah. Yes, not bad at math. But we'll be back after a break. Michelle and Martin met at an event held in the Mormons Single Ward in late nineteen seventy seven. In the beginning, their love burnt red hot. Martin was obsessed with Michelle, and she enjoyed the intensity of his love, but before long she grew wary of his constant attention. Anne decided to end their romance, but when she tried to break up with Martin, he put a gun to his temple and threatened to pull the trigger. She retracted the break up.

19:21 As their unhealthy relationship continued, Martin became controlling, causing Michelle's inner light to dim. Her family noticed the difference in her. Her sister Linda Kloff said, there were fights and she couldn't take it. You could see the stress in her face. I don't know what happened. Her whole world changed in a few months after meeting him. When Michelle's family met Martin, they disliked him immediately and sensed an unhealthy relationship. Linda said, I thought he was just a big actor. He just gave me the creeps. He was self absorbed. It became more and more apparent each time I saw him that he believed he was superior to anyone else, and he thought very highly of himself. Michelle's family implored her to end the relationship, but she had a great deal of empathy, and she viewed everything with Martin through the lens of his difficult childhood. On February twenty first, nineteen seventy eight, Michelle twenty one and Martin twenty two were quietly married by the Justice of the Peace, with just the two of them in attendance. They had only known each other.

20:22 A few months later, their marriage was sealed in the Mormon Temple, a sacred ceremony meant to bind them together not just in this life, but in the life to come. Michelle didn't tell her family until two weeks later, when Martin showed up to help her pack her belongings and move out of the family home in with him. A couple of weeks later, Michelle's mother, Helen, was flipping through the newspaper. When a headline stopped her cold brilliant forgery spree. Inspired by TV, she read further, a sense of dread settled upon her. The article was about Martin. Shocked and alarmed, Helen went straight to the court house, determined to learn more. When she obtained the records, her worst fears deepened. The documents detailed Martin's psychological diagnoses by polar disorder and schizophrenia.

21:09 Helen was terrified for her daughter's future, and for any children Michelle might have. One day. The unease gnawed at her. She confided in one of her daughters, voicing a chilling, prescient fear, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed her one day. Helen didn't tell Michelle of her concerns. She had already begun to sense how controlling Martin could be, and she worried that raising alarms would only make things worse. If Michelle repeated her mother's fears, Helen suspected Martin might tighten his grip even further, limiting visits, screening phone calls, or cutting off contact altogether. Their time with Michelle already felt restricted, and Helen feared losing what little access she still had to her daughter, so she stayed quiet, choosing to remain close in whatever way she could, watching carefully and hoping she was wrong, even as her unnies continued to grow.

21:59 Now do you know if Michelle knew about his forgery and identity fraud scheme. I'm not sure if she knew before they were married, but she knew pretty soon after because he was going to court and get But the timeline of them meeting, I think they met in like November and then they were married in late February, so they really Yeah, it was really quick. One day, Martin left his briefcase in Helen's car after she'd loaned it to him. Curiosity got the better of her, and she opened it insiet She found blank stationary and an official looking seal from Saint Martin's University, where he'd attended undergrad but not formed in Helen's stomach. As her suspicions grew, she pressed a sheet of paper against the seal, making an imprint of the university seal, before carefully returning everything to the briefcase. Why would Martin have something like that? Helen tucked the paper away with the court documents that she'd obtained I'm sure if she'd ever need them, but saving it gave her a small sense of reassurance. She held onto those documents for thirty years. That summer, Martin accepted a plea deal on the theft charges and was sentenced to six months in jail. When he was released, he vowed to leave his past behind, promising Michelle that he would work hard and build a better life for them.

23:16 I'm curious about this detail of him having this seal? Can you describe what that is? Well? Do you know when you have an official document like your birth certificate or some if you go to the notary, right, it's he had the tool that you make the official seal with. Okay, he had the tool. I believe that's the case. Yes, So why he must have Yeah, that would be very o across it or taken it. Yeah, that would be very strange that he would have that. After Martin's release from jail, he and Michelle quickly began building their family. They had four children in five years. On October eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, they welcomed their first child, a daughter they named Rachel renee McNeil. Michelle was twenty two, Martin twenty three, Michelle doted on the baby and loved being a mother. Martin abandoned his earlier plans of studying psychiatry and instead focused on becoming a general practicing physician and enrolled in medical school at the Guadalajara School of Medicine in Guadalajara, Mexico. He may have chosen this path because his criminal record limited his options. The program allowed American students to attend medical school, completing four years in Mexico before returning to the United States for clinical rotations and residency training. Graduates still had to pass the same licensing exams to practice medicine in the United States. Thousands of American medical students took this same route at the time.

24:39 The mcneils moved to Mexico for a brief period before Martin withdrew from the program and instead entered the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific in Pomoma, California, studying osteopathic medicine. Osteopathic medicine is patient centered, holistic approach to healthcare that emphasizes treating the whole person, body, mind, and overall well being rather than just symptoms. Doctors of osteopathic medicine or doos, are fully licensed physicians who can prescribe medication and perform surgery, but they also receive specialized training in the musculoskeletal system and hands on techniques known as osteopathic manipulative treatment or OMT. The philosophy of osteopathic medicine is built on several core principles, including the unity of the body, the body's ability to heal itself, the relationship between structure and function, and the importance of rational holistic treatment.

25:37 Because of this approach, osteopathic medicine often emphasizes prevention and overall health, not just treating illnesses. In the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, doctors of osteopathic medicine were sometimes viewed as less prestigious within parts of the medical community, in part because osteopathic schools were often easier to gain admission to. Howevers received similar medical training to mds, along with additional instruction in musculoskeletal medicine and hands on treatment techniques. Today, the distinction between MD's and doos is largely seamless, with both training and practicing side by side. Martin graduated from the program in nineteen eighty three with a degree in osteopathic surgery. He completed his residency in Flushing, New York.

26:24 When his education was complete, the family moved to Utah, where Martin became a licensed deo. So that was kind of a lot about osteopaths. I mentioned it because some people would question whether his training was legitimate or not. I think it was had good training. I think he might not have been the best doctor though. Okay. Meanwhile, Michelle was busy with the McNeil's growing family. They welcomed Vanessa Marie in nineteen eighty one, Alexis Michelle in nineteen eighty two, and Damian Alexander in nineteen eighty five. The McNeil children remember a childhood centered around their loving mother. Alexis said, I had a wonderful childhood. My mom was always there and just the best person. The children recall that their father, too, was gentle and kind with them, even though he was often working. Much of their life centered around the Mormon Church. The mcneils were pillars of the church, admired as a beautiful, seemingly perfect family. Martin had even served as a bishop, a position of deep trust and authority which only reinforced the image he worked so carefully to maintain. He puffed his chest out in pride as they entered church each week. The girls were always poised and well behaved, wearing pretty dresses, their hair tied up in matching ribbons, with Damien in a little suit and tie sharply pressed. Michelle built her days around her children, volunteering at their schools, sewing their dance costumes.

27:50 All of them studied ballet. Michelle later served as a board member for the Utah Regional Ballet. Martin worked at a variety of clinics, hospitals on the Brigham Young University campus, and even an Indian reservation, often working multiple jobs or side hustles. He even found time to participate in local theater productions. Martin, it seemed, was quite the actor. While working at BYU, he decided to enter law school. He graduated in nineteen ninety. He never took the bar exam, but worked in medical law before working again full time at BYU's medical center. The family had moved many times over the years, but in nineteen ninety three, they finally settled in Salem, Utah, in a one hundred year old Victorian house.

28:34 I've seen pictures and it was definitely haunted. After five years, they again relocated to Aorum, Utah, to a six bedroom, eight bathroom, eleven thousand square foot mansion. While eleven thousand square feet pretty big, along with the financial success came multiple luxury cars and five star beach vacations. I've always thought that the golden ticket is having your law degree and your medical. Yeah, I mean that, really, you can write your own ticket with that. After the move, Michelle again threw herself into the Mormon Church and served as president of the church's Relief Society. She developed a close knit, deep friendship with three other women, Cheryl, Loreen, and Karen. They called themselves the ya Ya Sisters, after the popular book and movie of the time. For the rest of their lives, despite their location or circumstances, the women remained the best of friends. Martin's career appeared to be on the rise when the governor of Utah appointed him medical director of the Utah State Developmental Center, a facility that provided round the clock care for two hundred and sixty five individuals with developmental disabilities. From the outside, it seemed like a significant achievement. His success increased his already inflated ego and made him difficult to work with. Talking with Martin could be frustrating. He dominated conversations, dismissed opposing viewpoints, and left little space for discussion. Friends and coworkers said he rarely entertained the possibility that he might be wrong, But according to Shanna Hogan's The Stranger She Loved, Martin's relationships with

30:07 co workers told a different story. Many described him as intimidating and domineering, with some questioning his medical competence. Staff Members said he bullied vulnerable medical residents, and his leadership style drove experienced nurses and doctors away from the facility. Nurse practitioner Stephen Nicholson, who worked closely with Martin for seven years, described carefully navigating Martin's personality. He has a very strong personality. I didn't give him reason to be defensive, but I knew that was something I had to manage swimming through rough waters. I just approached him differently in social settings. Outside of work, Martin could be brusque and condescending, often struggling in social situations and leaving others uncomfortable. At home. However, his children remembered a different side of him, a father who was warm, playful, and genuinely funny, someone who dropped the formality and simply enjoyed being with them. His children all looked up to him, but beneath the surface, trouble was brewing, and the carefully crafted tapestry of the McNeil's life was coming apart at the seams, even if none of them realized it.

31:14 So it seems that Martin did have two sides to his personality, because his kids said when they were little, he was really sweet and engaged and would wrestle with them and play with them, and they had fond memories of him. At some point he did kind of change, but we'll get to that soon. Well, I was going to ask you about his schizophrenia, because he was diagnosed with that, you know, a few years earlier. Yeah, was any was he doing anything like to help with that? That is a very good question. People diagnosed with schizophrenia sometimes experience a decrease in their symptoms as they move in their thirties and beyond. While the condition is typically lifelong, many individuals find that symptoms become more manageable over time.

31:55 Research suggests that about twenty to thirty percent of people improved substantially, forty to fifty percent continued to experience ongoing but manageable symptoms, and roughly twenty percent have more persistent severe symptoms. Factors such as treatment, stability, and support can play an important role in long term outcomes, although symptoms can worsen at any time due to stress or other triggers. But some people have suggested that Martin manufactured the schizophrenia symptoms to get out of the military and his mission work. Interesting, So Martin was an extremely intelligent man. M hmmm, if I haven't made that clear. Yeah. As the children grew up, Martin seemed to withdraw, becoming increasingly distant and less involved in their lives. Michelle's sister Linda said that the pressure to be perfect was omnipresent for the mcneils. It wasn't a normal family. They were so used to portraying what they wanted people to believe.

32:51 Their house was crazy. There would be these great, big fights, but then they'd all walk out the door and they'd be perfect. Michelle nor the children were allowed to talk about their family issues to friends or family. When Martin returned home from work, he often withdrew to his study, closing the door and spending hours alone. One evening, Michelle discovered him looking at pornography, something strictly forbidden in the Mormon faith and an issue that had caused tension between them before. Martin had promised to stop, but the discovery ignited another argument. In the midst of the chaos, Martin grabbed a butcher's knife, waving the silver blade through the air, threatening Michelle. The children were horrified. Fifteen year old Damien rushed in and tackled his father to the ground, wrestling the knife from his hands. A neighbor overheard the argument and called the police. They took Martin to the hospital, where he was placed on a twenty four hour psychiatric hold.

33:44 For a man who carefully cultivated an image of respectability and control, the incident was deeply humiliating, a crack in the carefully constructed facade that he had worked so hard to maintain. That is a really terrifying scene waving around a butcher's knife. Yeah, at this point it seemed like some of the stressors were starting to show with Martin. What Michelle didn't know was that pornography was the lesser evil of her husband's addictions. Over the years, he engaged in numerous consensual affairs, perhaps dozens, but there were also allegations that his conduct crossed a more troubling line. Martin was accused of pursuing women in places where he held positions of trust. At medical practices where he worked, at church, online, and even among patients. His relationships often involved vulnerable women, including those who were newly divorced or single mothers. The pattern, according to those who later came forward, helped explain his frequent job changes and the instability that followed him from one workplace to another. Other troubling behavior and lapses in judgment soon followed. Martin was caught fraudulently billing Medicaid for services that were never provided, a violation that ultimately resulted in a twelveth your ban from participating in the program.

35:02 Wouldn't you think that fraudulently building medicaid would result in a more serious consequence. Yeah, I would think that is a crime, but maybe it's just, you know, for the first infraction, that's maybe just what they do because it's probably more involved to go through court proceedings and everything like that. But yeah, that's a pretty serious offense. I would think your medical license would be suspended for a year. I don't know. Yeah, And for someone making as much money as he was, why would you do something like that. It just seems like I just don't. Get it, you know, that's Martin. Yeah. As the McNeil children grew into adults, the carefully curated image of a perfect family began to unravel. The effects of their upbringing didn't fade with time. They lingered, resulting in strained relationships, mental health struggles, and lives that often drifted off course. Rachel, the oldest of the McNeil children, married shortly after graduating from high school. She was bright and capable, but often seemed unmoor, drifting through life without a clear sense of direction. Her marriage didn't last long, strained in part by her increasingly erratic behavior. At twenty one, she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She married again, hoping for stability, but that relationship also quickly ended in divorce.

36:18 She moved from state to state, job to job, searching for happiness and peace that evaded her. Eventually, she enrolled in school to become a dental hygienist, finding comfort in the structure and predictability that the profession offered to cope with her extreme anxiety. Second born Vanessa, turned to drugs and alcohol in high school, resulting in risky behavior. When she was eighteen, she became pregnant. In March two thousand one, Vanessa gave birth to a baby girl named Ada. Michelle and Martin adopted Ada, while Vanessa continued on a downward spiral and became a full blown heroin addict, often living on the streets. She was in and out of rehab paid for by her parents, but she was never clean for long. Martin wrote her off, embarrassed by her, but Michelle never gave up on her.

37:05 Never ever give up on your children. No, for sure, It's so sad. Alexis fared better than her sisters. She attended Brigham Young University and then enrolled in medical school at Turo University, Nevada College of Osteopathic Medicine. Damian, the youngest, and his father shared a peculiar yet close bond. He was also very close with Michelle. Damien was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in his late teens. He suffered with long bouts of severe depression, but decided to go on a Mormon mission. After high school graduation, he spent two years in Japan before coming back to Utah and enrolling at Utah Valley University to study law. In law school, he met and began dating Eileen Heng, a fellow law student.

37:49 Will be back. After a break. With only Ada at home, the McNeill's sprawling mansion began to feel too quiet in cavernous. They worried that their granddaughter might grow up lonely without siblings to share her childhood. In two thousand and three, they decided to expand their family through adoption, welcoming three girls from Ukraine, twelve year olds Noel and Giselle and ten year old El. Some believed the adoptions weren't about family at all, that Martin saw the children as a way to keep Michelle busy and blind to what he was doing behind her back. Growing up in a Ukrainian orphanage had been brutal, with limited resources like food and clothing, but also a lack of affection and love. Once in the US, Michelle treated the girls like dolls. She dressed them in matching fully dresses and enrolled them in ballet classes. She loved her new daughters, but the transition was more difficult than she'd anticipated. Elle, the youngest, adapted quicker, but the two older girls had a hard time adjusting to life with the mcneils and struggled with learning the language and fitting in with the family.

39:00 Noel even ran away. Michelle sent her to live in Michigan in a home for children with reactive detachment disorder. Her adoption was later severed and she became a ward of the state of Michigan. So the girls, I don't believe they were related, but all three of them came I think from the same orphanage. According to the Mayo Clinic, reactive attachment disorder is a rare of it serious condition in which an infant or young child is unable to form healthy attachments with parents or caregivers. It can develop when a child's basic needs for comfort, affection, and nurturing go unmet, making it difficult to build stable, secure relationships. With treatment, along with education and support for parents or caregivers, children can improve and begin to form healthier attachments. From what I know about psychology of development, mean you really need that nurturing and love in the first three years of life, or it's really hard to make those strong bonds that you need with parenting a child's so I can understand that. Michelle thought, you know, I'm going to love these kids and I'm going to give them the best life possible.

40:06 Yeah, it's hard when they haven't had what they needed for the first, you know, several years of their life. Exactly after Nowhela left the family, the mcneils adopted another child from Ukraine, Sabrina. She and l had grown up together in the same orphanage and were close friends. Sabrina had initially been adopted by another family along with her younger sister, but she later recalled feeling unwanted there, as though the family had only truly wanted the younger child. During a visit to Utah to see Elle, the McNeil's got to know Sabrina and ultimately decided to adopt her. In her new homes, she flourished. Years later, Sabrina reflected, it was wonderful. I had always dreamed for a family like the mcneils. When I was first adopted, my mom was just wonderful. It was exactly what I dreamed of, just perfect. Michelle doated on her new daughters, but Martin remained more distant. And detached, never quite accepting the adopted children.

40:59 I forgot to get of a content warning at the top of the episode, but we have a brief discussion here of child sexual abuse that should only last about twenty seconds if you want to fast forward. Giselle accused Martin of molesting her, quote, he was touching me in weird places. I don't know what it was about me. He was always touching me. I always felt weird. Since Noel had left the family, Giselle felt like she was now labeled the difficult child, and she never fit in. She hated school, refused to go to ballet, and rejected the Mormon church. When she told Michelle about the sexual abuse that she'd suffered, she told her they could never speak of it again. She wasn't outright punished, but Michelle was harder on her and made her do more chores than the other girls, who, in Giselle's eyes, were perfect little princesses who did as they were told and got straight a's in school. Most troubling of all her behaviors was that Giselle refused to keep quiet about what was going on in the family, revealing dark secrets. The fe McNeil's preferred to keep buried, so none of the other kids said anything like this, but that was Giselle's version of events, who is now estranged from the rest of the family. Two thousand and five was the hardest year yet of the McNeil's marriage. Unbeknownst to Michelle, Martin was juggling two affairs in addition to his career, church and their children. Michelle and Martin had an ugly fight after she found pornography on his computer. I don't love you anymore.

42:22 I don't want to live here with you. Martin spat out in anger. He revealed that he regretted adopting their daughters and didn't love them either. His words destroyed Michelle. Anna Osborne Whitehall was a mother of two young boys in her forties going through a contentious divorce. When she first met Martin, she owned a medspa called Sona Medspa in Park City, Utah. Requires medspas to have a licensed position on staff to oversee their procedures. She hired Martin and they started an affair. He opened up to Anna in ways he never had to Michelle, revealing to her his most secret, dark thoughts. Mar and McNeil had a dark passenger. A dark passenger much like Dexter? Right, is that where that's from?

43:06 Exactly like Dexter? Martin admitted to Anna that he'd tried to kill his mother, an alcoholic, when he was just eight. He put several types of pills he found in the medicine cabinet into a can of beer and fed it to her, putting the can up to her lips. She swallowed the beer and soon passed out cold. When Martin's sister came home, she thought that her mother had taken the pills on her own in an attempt to take her own life. She called an ambulance in the nick of time. Martin admitted that when he was a teen, he'd also drowned his brother, a drug addict, after he found him unconscious in a bathtub, he dunked his head underwater until he stopped breathing. He confessed to Anna that he thought about killing his daughter, Vanessa because she'd been such an embarrassment to the family after her drug addiction, and he also offered to kill Anna's ex husband. Martin's homicidal urgis fascinated Anna when her me spop business went belly up. She begged him to move to her native Oklahoma with her and her children, despite his dark urges.

44:07 Wow, those things that he told there are really like awful things. Is that so those are true? Like he killed me? We don't know tru or not. This is Martin telling Anna. There was their weird pillow talk. Yeah, but his brother did die. His brother didn't remember all his siblings, but one had passed. And yeah, allegedly, you know, Martin hastened to the hot he maybe he would have died from a drug overdose. Anyway, he was thinking the baths of Martin. Yeah, doctor said, Yeah, I mean some pretty scary things. Gypsy Jill Willis became Martin's second paramore in November two thousand and five. She was born in Saint Anthony, Idaho, in October nineteen seventy six, to Vicki and Howard Willis. She also came from a Mormon family, the oldest of four children, two boys and two girls. Her father went back to school to become a doctor when the children were young, inspiring Gypsy to become a nurse, completing an LPN program high school. She was very bright, but her head was always in the clouds. She believed in fairytale romances.

45:06 Her mother opined about her oldest daughter, her intellectual ability outstripped her emotional maturity. The summer before she began her second year in college, she discovered that she was pregnant. Her boyfriend, a student in engineering, left her when she was nine months pregnant for another woman. Gypsy's parents were horrified by her pregnancy and largely disowned her, though they maintained limited contact. In the spring of nineteen ninety five, she gave birth to a daughter she named Heidi Marie. A year later, she married Jason Jensen, a man from her church. Later, she said, I didn't want to get married, but I wanted to fix things with my family, so I got married and tried to patch it up and make it all better. Gypsy, Jason, and baby Heidi moved to Nebraska, where she worked as a nurse and he went to culinary school. But two years into the marriage, they separated. Gypsy moved back to Idaho and lived with her parents, although her relationship was still strained. When she was twenty three, she fell in love again with a man named Eric Blair. When she decided to move in with him, her parents took custody of Heidi and later adopted her. When Gypsy signed away her parental rights with the understanding that she could still come and visit as much as she wanted, she and Eric moved to Salt Lake City, and Gypsy returned to Idaho whenever she could, but during one visit, a dispute over her dog spiraled into a violent confrontation. Gipsy bit her mother severely on the arm. After that, her parents told her she was no longer welcome. When she sued them for custody, the

46:36 Willises left the state and moved to Wyoming. She didn't have the money to continue fighting for Heidi, but held on to the hope that they might reunite once Heidi turned eighteen. Then, unexpectedly, at a blessing for her brother's new baby, her parents welcomed her back into the fold and began allowing her occasional visits with her daughter. Gypsy had a whimsical, free spirited nature, drawn to run aissance fairs and more bohemian pursuits. She eschewed the Mormon faith but still carried a deep sense of spirituality. She dated frequently and had several affairs with married men with no intention of ever marrying again. Quote. I've been married, I've had a baby. I've been kind of traumatized by that whole experience. I don't really want to get married again, she said later in life, with age and perspective, she came to regret that her affairs had hurt others and damaged marriages. When Martin met Gypsy online, she was a twenty nine year old divorced nurse living in Salt Lake City.

47:34 Her username on the dating site was Phoenix Sheba. She listed her hobbies as astrology, sphinxes, and quantum physics. Quantum physics of the hobby, that's something. He is a very interesting person. Martin told her that his name was Joe and he was a thirty nine year old pharmaceutical representative. Why would you make like you're a doctor and just. Trying to disguise his identity against Years later, Gypsy described Martin his personality is very strong. He's really terrifically intelligent, very handsome, very tall, just great. In my mind, he was the perfect combination of qualities. I thought he was amazing. I thought this is a really awesome person. Gypsy viewed Martin as the American version of Prince Charming coming from his glorious castle. In late November two thousand and five, they met for lunch at Thanksgiving Point. We've been to Thanksgiving Point, that's a place. Martin sheepishly admitted that he had lied to her. He told her he was married and his real name, and that he was actually a forty nine year old doctor. Gypsy didn't mind at all, not even when he told her that he was seeing other women and that he would never leave his wife.

48:42 Martin was so taken with her that he completely broke things off with Anna. Anna was angry, but also haunted by Martin's dark confessions. She began seeing a psychiatrist and confided in the doctor that she had dated a serial killer. Looking back on the affair, she was grateful it ended before she he had become a partner in some of Martin's morbid fantasies. So I think that Martin had alluded to Anna that he had possibly killed some patience. Oh really yeah. Gypsy fell deeply in love with Martin. The depth of their bond even surprised her. They both felt that they could be their true selves when they were together. She asked him to leave Michelle, but he refused, so she continued to see other men. They spent as much time together as they could, with Gypsy, sometimes even accompanying Martin on his business trips. Meanwhile, back at the McNeil mansion, Michelle became suspicious of her husband. Even when Martin was home.

49:37 He felt absent, distracted, disengaged, often home late, and constantly texting someone, but he insisted it was all work related. They went to marriage counseling, but nothing changed. At times, Michelle found herself wondering why she was still fighting for a marriage that already felt abandoned. While Martin continued to deny having an affair, Michelle grew depressed, withdrew from friends, and gained weight. When Martin turned fifty in February, he became obsessed with his longevity and appearance. After he improved his diet, he began exercising fanatically, quickly dropped thirty pounds and became a regular at the Tanning salon. Some might have chalked it up to a midlife crisis, but to Michelle, it felt like more evidence that he was having an affair. Soon after, Martin insisted the family move out of their Orum mansion into a large but significantly smaller home in Pleasant Grove.

50:30 Their new home was five thousand square feet with six bedrooms and five and a half bathrooms. I mean I think their old house was did I say eleven thousand? So this is still a large home. The new neighbors adored Michelle and the children, but found Martin brash and rude. One neighbor said he just made sure to say that he was downsizing into his home and that he was a doctor and a lawyer. You could tell that he had a huge ego. In late two thousand and six, Martin began experiencing severe pain and swelling in one of his big toes, eventually requiring him to use a cane. The cause remained unclear, and he ultimately underwent three separate surgeries. Martin thought he was dying. He made sure his will was up to date and purchased a two million dollar life insurance policy. He began telling people that he had terminal cancer, while telling others that he was suffering from multiple sclerosis or peripheral neuropathy. For months, he traveled his specialists, going as far as the Mayo Clinic. Often Gypsy was traveling with him. The relationship intensified, and Gypsy stopped accepting dates from other men. On February twenty first, two thousand and seven, Michelle and Martin's twenty ninth wedding anniversary, Martin and Gypsy traveled again to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona. Together.

51:46 He stopped in Nevada to visit his daughter Alexis and borrow her car, a convertible to make the trip more fun. He dropped Gypsy off at a restaurant to wait for him. Michelle had confided in Alexis, sharing her fears that Martin was having an affair. Alexis thought the whole idea of her father borrowing her convertible was suspicious. While Martin was still in her apartment, she snuck out and popped the trunk of his car and saw multiple suitcases. Instantly knowing that Martin wasn't traveling alone, she rifled through the suitcases and found women's clothing, lingerie, and makeup. Alexis chose not to say anything to her father, but called her mother as soon as he left. Michelle was shattered, though not surprised, and she called Martin on the road. He claimed that he was transporting the luggage for a collie.

52:33 Well, that's one of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard. Well, especially because he's going through the Mayopa. Yeah, exactly. He returned to Alexis's apartment, furious with her for upsetting her mother. To keep up appearances, he stayed the night with her and picked Gipsy up in the morning from a friend's house, and they carried on to Arizona. After extensive consultations with doctors, Martin was ultimately diagnosed with hereditary neuropathy with liability to Pressure Paul's or HNPP. HNPP is a rare genetic condition that affects the peripheral nerves, making them unusually sensitive to pressure. Even minor compression like leaning on an elbow or crossing the legs, can trigger temporary numbness, weakness, or loss of sensation. While episodes can be uncomfortable and sometimes last for weeks or months, the condition is not life threatening and does not typically affect a person's overall life expectancy. It's managed with simple lifestyle adjustments like avoiding prolonged pressure on certain areas, modifying repetitive movements, and using protective padding when needed, but Martin continued to behave as though his life was in danger despite receiving the benign diagnosis.

53:44 Alexis and Michelle joined forces, determined to prove that Martin was gaslighting him and that he was in fact having an affair. While Martin wasn't paying attention, Alexis secretly accessed his T mobile account, had the passwords sent to his phone, memorized it, and deleted them message so he wouldn't notice, and then she downloaded a ring tone and casually handed the phone back to him. Alexis was able to log into Martin's T Mobile account and print a copy of his bill. One unfamiliar number appeared hundreds of times. When Alexis called the number, a woman answered and she quickly hung up. As she kept digging, she learned that the number belonged to Gypsy Jill Willis. Michelle confronted her husband with a new information, and he again denied that he was having an affair. Who's Gypsy? That sounds like a stripper's name.

54:31 She's renting one of our properties. If she's just a tenant, why are you calling her at two or three in the morning. She works the graveyard shift. That's the only time she's available. Then she can wait. You need to stop calling her, Martin, I mean it. This needs to stop, Michelle. You're overreacting again. It's business, nothing more. You know, I'd never do anything to jeopardize our marriage or our family. The next day, Martin broached an awkward subject with his wife. He said, brazen Lee. I think you need a facelift. Excuse me. Michelle had just turned fifty years old recently, and Bob, she looked good for her courage, She'd never considered going under the knife. You'll feel better about yourself once you're healed up. We can go on a cruise and celebrate our thirtieth anniversary.

55:13 After much hounding from Martin, Michelle begrudgingly agreed, likely fueled by her husband's recent weight loss, intense fitness regimen, and the growing suspicion that he was having an affair. Despite his connections in the medical field, Martin chose a doctor an hour away who he didn't know, doctor Scott Kent Thompson, who had opened his Utah practice just nine months prior. After a consultation in mid March, Michelle decided to go ahead with a forehead lift. Mid facelift, lower facelift, and upper and lower eyelid surgery. But doctor Thompson had reservations about Michelle's blood pressure and insisted she see her primary care doctor to get cleared. Martin over rode doctor Thompson and brushed off the warnings and insisted she was fine and that she would be under his watchful eye. They scheduled the surgery for April third, and that is where we are going to end Part one. Michelle and Martin McNeil.

56:09 I want to keep going. So what do you think about Michelle and Martin's marriage? I mean, obviously their marriage is in shambles and he's having all these affairs. It seems like Michelle knew about the affairs, but maybe was in denial. It just seems like with all these things, like these phone calls at three am, and the you know the fact that her daughter found lingerie in these suitcases, she had to have known, right right. I think sometimes people know instinctively what they want to keep it. Don't want to believe that, Yeah, Michelle was not going to leave her marriage. I don't believe she would have left her marriage, and she wanted to make it work. They were doing counseling, and you know, she gave him some parameters that she wanted him to follow, but you know, Martin just lived life on Martin's terms.

56:54 Yeah, it seemed like both of them had this real need to portray themselves. That's a perfect thing. It just seems like with everything they had, they didn't want anyone to see any cracks or that, you know, things weren't perfect. So this was a long time ago, but you worked for a company in Utah and we had considered moving to Utah, so you could, you know, I don't know, get a better job or whatever the situation was. And it's a lovely place, Yeah, beautiful. I remember thinking when we were there that all that everyone looked really put together, and there would be these big families, but you know, everyone, the moms and the kids, they all looked really put together. Yeah, And that was a little intimidating to me because I.

57:37 Mean, yeah, I think there is a high value put on like everyone, you know, dressing nicely and neatly and just appearing. Very presenting yourself a certain way. Yeah, I definitely think that's true. A heartbreaking aspect to this case is how Michelle and Martin how three of their children suffered from substance abuse, and then two of them had bipolar disorder, and I think that they must inherited that from Martin. Yeah, I was going to ask you how how much you felt the children's struggles with mental illness were inherited versus the environment that they were brought up in, if that may have had something to do with it. I know it's hard to say that, but well, I should. Backtrack and for like plenty of people who have bipolar disorder, it can be controlled and they can leave full, full and happy lives. Right in this case, though, I know that these kids did struggle, and in part two we'll reveal a little bit more about that.

58:28 Yeah, it is really It is so sad though, when you know so many members of a family well and struggle with things like that. Yeah. Yeah, just a generational trauma. I guess that you know fits this picture too. Yeah, but Michelle was definitely like a loving, caring mother. Yeah, it sounds like she did the best that you know she could for her kids. And bipolar disorder is largely inherited, but not not always, and there are some environmental factors that can't impact it. Like people you might have the genetic predisposition for it. But develop it or vice versa. Yeah, obviously I am not a psychologist, so please forgive me if I got anything wrong there. What do you make of Michelle and Martin adopting the children from Ukraine?

59:13 Well, it sounds like with their other kids mostly out of the house, that maybe Michelle was looking for something to fill her life with and maybe Martin was looking for something to distract Michelle so that he could go off and have his affairs. I think you're right, and they did have Ada. Ada was She was pretty young, right. She was only six years old, so I think they did want, you know, aid a it grow up with other seilings. That makes sense too. I do wonder if they knew what they were getting into adopting kids that were older twelve than ten years old, who had had rough upbringings up until that point. So that must have been very difficult. But I wonder if they thought that, you know, that it wouldn't be as tough as it was.

59:54 Yeah, adoption is it's really hard. It's such a wonderful thing to do, but it's really hard to bond the older children. Yeah, when they haven't formed meaningful relationships with other people. And I think that Sabrina and Elle, they both really thrived in the environment. But I'm going to forget their names. Giselle and Noel did not. Yeah, what do you think of Martin and his dark passenger? That's really it's chilling. I wasn't expecting that, to be honest with you. I thought, Okay, the guy's got problems obviously, and there's going to be a question about what happened to Michelle. But yeah, I wasn't expecting him to come forward with admitting that he tried to kill his mom and that he killed his brother. I mean, like you said, may or may not be true, but still very that's very dark and very chilling.

1:00:39 Do you want me to get plastic surgery? Have you scheduled anything for me? No? Absolutely crazy though, to tell your wife, Oh, I think you have plastic surgery, honey. I know I would never do that. I mean, if you wanted to do it on your own, then that's fine, but I would never pressure you or Yeah, that's just not cool. Michelle was a beautiful woman too. She looked amazing, and I'm. Sure she just felt this pressure because you know, he had. When she was pretty adamant in the beginning, like, no, I'm good, her daughter said. Her daughters were like you, mom, you're you're beautiful. You don't need anything done. Yeah, but he just kept kind of needling her, And yeah, she was a little insecure. I think about him heavy. He wanted it to work, and it sounds like she was willing to do whatever she thought she needed to do to make things work.

1:01:24 Yeah, she really was. Well, please come back for part two. Okay, we just broke for dinner and you called me a psychopath. If you want to tell everyone why. For suggesting I put crumbled up potato chips on a hot dog, So to. Me, when I'm eating a sandwich, not as much a hot dog as a hot dog a sandwich. That's for another day. But if I'm eating a sandwich, I love to put potato chips inside my sandwich. Psychopathic behavior. I do not think it's a psychopath. I think it's odd if you don't want a little texture in your sandwi which so we need you guys to weigh in. Yeah, it probably should not be diagnosing you with a psychopathy based on that.

1:02:06 But I am trying really hard not to diagnose because people have clat back at me, which I totally understand. I did major in psychology, but I'm not a psychologist, so we shouldn't be diagnosing people or labeling people unless an expert has already done. But the potato chip thing is pretty clear, so I think. In that case we care at all. I think you're missing out. Have you tried it? I've tried it. Sure. I think I got that from Ali Sheety in the Breakfast calor. Oh do you remember that scene? No? I don't, but they do call her the basket case. But I think she was a genius she was. Yes, Well, you just contradicted yourself. You said that you agreed that Ali she could be. A genius and a psychopath at the same time, can't you.

1:02:48 So you're saying putting potato chips on your sandwich is genius, or you're just saying Sheety is a genius. I'm saying her genius had nothing to do with her being a basket case and putting chip on her sandwich. Okay, So our cats, I think just one of them just demanded that they be allowed to come into the room. But they've been obsessed with me lately, I know. I do think they have like a little bit of an unhealthy obsession with you. Yeah, and it's kind of you know, it's kind of sweet. Maybe they feel like I'm having empty nests undrome, but yeah, I mean mostly I'm okay, but when it impacts my sleep is when it really bums me out. The other night, I was having allergies kind of bad, and we have a lot of beds in her house now that no one is sleeping, and so I just went and slept in Emma's room and the cats. So what happens is Clover, the girl cat, she gets mad when Cosmo, the boy cat, comes into the room, so she guards me like no boys allowed. She's like no boys allowed. So she's like mewing and they're fighting and I'm trying to sleep, and so it was just really, you have witnessed this, oh yeah, And so it's it can go on for hours sometimes and you can't lock them out of the room. So what I ended up doing is I haended up playing like cat sounds for them, like cat relaxing music, and it did seem to chill her out.

1:04:06 All that's good. That's on Spotify if you want to. There's a plenty of them there's a lot of them. So sometimes I feel jealous that the cats love you more than they love me. But then when I see how they keep you awake at night and how they torment you, I feel a little better about it after that. But speaking of cats, Yeah. Can I talk a little bit about cat euthanasia. I mean, if you want to go there again, you got some heat. So a couple of weeks ago, we did did an episode and wanted the Wendy. The person in the episode was a veterinarian. So you realize you're not gonna you're not gonna win this argument. Well let me just let me just explain. So there was a part of the episode where there were some cats brought into the clinic that had ringworm, and the lead veterinarian told her to euthanize the cats, and she didn't do it. And in the episode, I talked about how ringworm is very contagious and it can spread around the clinic and it can spread the humans as well.

1:05:03 I got a lot of flack about that, people saying, oh, go ahead, Well. When you said that in the episode, I thought that you implied. And I don't know a lot about ringworm other than it's very unpleasant. I thought you implied that it was some sort of like very detrimental ringworm. It was like a deadly ring worm. No, I think it was just ringworm. But a lot of people gave me flack and said, ringworm is very treatable. You don't need to euthanize a cat to do that, and it's irresponsible to spread misinformation that cats need to be euthanized. And I just want to say a couple of things in my defense. One, I wasn't advocating for the cats to be euthanized. I was just telling in the story that that was what the veterinarian said had to happen. In their listeners defense, I think they were just saying that you should have done a little more due diligence on your part.

1:05:48 Well, but I did. So. This one thing is this case took place like twenty five years ago, and I did look this up, and veterinarians and shelters historically have euthanized cats with ringworm. That was sort of just the direction. More recently, the approach has shifted toward treatment rather than euthanasia, So just keep in mind the timeframe. And I will also say I have never personally euthanized a cat, and I never will. Send your cards letter than comments too rich love Mary kil talk. I don't mean to get defensive, but I felt like people were accusing me of like being a cat euthanizer. Okay, I'm not sure if you just helped yourself with that explains.

1:06:29 I love cats. I love our cats very much, and yeah, we would not put our cats down for ringworm. In today's episode, we were talking about Mormons, and last weekend we binged a show on Netflix called Trust Me the False Prophet. It was four episodes and I thought it was so well done. It was really so it's really interesting. Oh, I highly recommend it. We should go ahead, I should say, we should say that the show was about the FLDS, the Fundamental List, which the mainstream Mormon church totally disowns them and wants nothing to do with them. But it was it was fascinating. Yeah, and the woman who the documentary centered around, oh my gosh, just sound like a hero, incredible woman. I just loved for so much. I'd like to learn more about her. But if you guys haven't watched that, I highly recommend that. I wanted to watch all four parts in one sitting. It's been a long time, I think, since I've watched something that was so compelling for me in true crime genre.

1:07:28 It really was. Yeah, I'm curious what you guys are doing with your Netflix subscriptions because it's gotten so expensive, and I'm thinking that maybe we need to like have Netflix for a couple of months and then you know, rot rotate, and then do Apple or whatever, because we're not watching all of them at once. No, I know it kind of it feels like some of them you're just paying for and you don't watch. It's such an indulgence to have as many streaming services as we do. But with the podcast, we are watching a lot of stuff all the time. But it's really challenging the way things are now to like you have to you just have to pay for a bunch of subscriptions things, even. To watch sports, which is super frustrating. But again it's called trust me the False Prophet and let us know if you guys watch it, let us know what you think. Well, thank you so much for listening and hanging out with us.

1:08:12 If you want to listen to part two of this episode right now, go to Patreon dot com, slash Love Marykill and join us for five dollars a month. You get early ad free access and a monthly BTUs episode, and when we do multiparts you can get them all at one time. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And you can find us on YouTube. We're really trying to get to one thousand people who are subscribing. And we're getting there. It's growing slowly but surely, so thank you to everyone who has already done that, but please do if you haven't already until next time. Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. In the Top compan