May 11, 2026

Michele and Martin MacNeill - Part 1

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Michele MacNeill was a devoted mother of eight and a respected member of her community. From the outside, her life looked picture-perfect—until cracks in her marriage began to surface.

As her husband Martin grew increasingly distant, Michele and her daughter Alexis uncovered evidence of a secret life he had been carefully hiding. Affairs, deception, and manipulation slowly came into focus, even as Martin insisted nothing was wrong.

When Michele agreed to undergo a facelift at her husband’s urging, it seemed like a chance to repair both her confidence and her marriage. Days later, she was dead. What first appeared to be a tragic accident would soon raise far more troubling questions.

Listen to part 2 today on Patreon

Today's snack: Shirley Temple bars

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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that we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's.

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That some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hi Rich, Hi Tina.

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How are you?

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I am great? How are you doing?

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Actually a couple of professional podcasters who are meeting for

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the first time.

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Yes, it's good to meet you.

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It's a beautiful day here in southeast Michigan. But it's chili.

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It's tired of being coal. I don't want to complain,

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but I would just like to be one complain. I'm

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going to so.

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I don't know if we talk about this a lot.

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But Rich is a baby.

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I am a big baby when it comes to call, Well,

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you're a baby when it comes to heat. I would

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much prefer to be too warm where you would prefer.

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To be chilly with a blanket. Yeah, but we are

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getting there, and we is a gorgeous day outside that Yes,

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I was just putting together a cushion came for our

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chase lounge and oh my gosh, it's like I was

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going to say, eight feet Yeah, No, I think it's

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probably about eight feet long to try to stick a

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cushion inside of the Oh.

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My gosh, that sounds like it should be easy, but it's.

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The best work out I've had in a long time.

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Well that's good then, So this.

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Year my goal for us is for you to be

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able to quit your daytime job, which we're still quite

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a waste from.

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You shouldn't say that out loud because I might have

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people from my job listening. I don't think they did well.

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We're a ways from that. But we want to keep

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growing the podcast, and one of the best ways for

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us to do that is when you guys leave us reviews.

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So I thought maybe we would inspire people to leave

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us a review by reading a couple of the really

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sweet reviews that we've gotten recently. Favorite true crime podcast.

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I've listened to every episode. It's that good, great cases,

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good perspectives, well researched. But what sets this podcast apart

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is Rich and Tina. They're both so lovely. Relationship is

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just beautiful, two really great humans who make a really

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great partnership. I just seemed to figure out if I

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can send them a snack sometime.

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Ah.

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So sweet, Yeah, it is so sweet. So many people

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have reached out recently saying I'd love to send you

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a snack. You know where can I send the snack to?

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You can send a snack to LMK pod po Box

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one one one, Dexter, Michigan four eight one three zero,

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or you can always message us. But I always feel

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guilty when people send us snacks.

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So generous it costs so I.

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Know it costs so much to ship. So I've been

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telling people recently you can always just send me a

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favorite recipe and I'll just make the recipe. But I mean,

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if you want to send us a snack, go ahead

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and send us a snack. We always appreciate that. But

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such a sweet review, very very sweet.

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Well, I've got another one that I thought was really

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sweet from Watermel Andrea. Her headline on the review is

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love Tina Mary Rich kill no One, and she says,

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I love love, love love that turns to murder more

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than my murder. I love a married couple who are

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actually friends tell me about murders, and Rich are so genuine.

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It's not forced, it's not emotionless, it's not fake sadness

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or outrage. There's more, but she closes with this is

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my favorite Murder Anything. It tops all other podcasts, any documentary,

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even Dateline and twenty twenty. Rich and Tina are my friends.

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They make me smile and cry daily and I want

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all of what they have going on. That's so nice.

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Cear me up all the time. It doesn't take much,

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as you know, to make me cry. So thank you

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so much for your generous words and your support. It

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means everything to us. If you want to leave us

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a review, it's it's tricky because those reviews that we

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just read are from Apple Right and Spotify. You can't

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leave reviews, but you can give us a rate.

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You can give us a rating, or you can leave

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a comment on an episode.

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That's true and we love to share your see your comments.

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Yeah, but with if you go to Apple Podcasts, that's

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really the best place to leave a review because you

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can actually leave a review like the ones we just read,

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and it's we really do appreciate it and it really

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does help us a lot.

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Yes, thank you so much. Our lovely listeners sent a

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recipe that they wanted me to make for you, and

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I made that for you today. Thank you so much,

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Anne with an E for recommending this recipe. They are

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called Shirley Temple Bars.

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M sounds good.

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So you have women all over the United States and

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the world that are thinking about you all the time.

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So Anne's like, oh, rich is going to love this recipe,

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and our listener who left the review wants to marry you,

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And people wonder why we don't post pictures. It's because

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you are so handsome, so devastatingly handsome, that women everywhere

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You're going to be people's hall passes. And so yeah, yeah,

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but back off, sisters, He's taken.

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I am. I'm happily married. Sorry, ladies.

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Okay, do you want to try this Shirley Temple bar?

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I sure do.

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Wait, do you want me to describe it for you?

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It's it's a little like cherry chip can.

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It looks like.

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Others chopped up Maraschino cherries, and there's a little bit

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of lime zest in the cake.

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But cool. Yeah, it's really good.

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What did you think of the Shirley Temple Bars.

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I loved it, A very cherry chip cake, like I

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think it's really really good.

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There is no almond extract in it. And because you're

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a little baby and you don't like cream cheese, I

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made a simple butter cream, and I appreciate the cherry

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juice in it. I really wanted to make the cream

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cheese for us.

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I was going to ask you if there was cream

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cheese in the frosting before I tasted it, and then

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when I tasted it, I knew that there wasn't, So yeah,

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thank you for that.

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In general, I will not make you eat cream cheese,

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although I love it so much. The sacrifices I have made.

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For you, well, thank you so much, Anne with an

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E for sending that recipe.

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A really really good recipe. What would you rate it

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from one to ten?

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Ten out of ten?

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Okay, I would give it probably an eight and a

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half or a night But yeah, I think they're really yummy.

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I just have a very strict crating scale. Today we're

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going to tell you the story of Michelle and Martin McNeil.

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This is an infamous case. A lot of people have

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probably already heard it, but hopefully we will give you

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a new perspective and tell you some things that you

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didn't know about the case before.

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I am not at all familiar with it.

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I have been dying to tell you this case. All quotes,

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unless otherwise noted, come from Shanna Hogan's twenty fifteen book

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The Stranger She Loved a Mormon doctor his beautiful wife

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in an almost perfect murder excellent book. On Wednesday, April eleventh,

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two thousand and seven, around noon, in the quiet gated

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community of Creekside Grove and Pleasant Grove, Utah, thirty five

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miles south of Salt Lake City, Michelle McNeil, fifty was

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found unconscious in her Jacouzi bathtub, wearing nothing but a

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long sleeved black T shirt and her Mormon undergarments. Fresh

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surgical wounds dotted across her eyelids, and scalp from her

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recent facelift leading into her blonde hair that was splayed

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into the water. Michelle's husband of nearly thirty years, Martin

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fifty one, walked into the bathroom after his six year

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old daughter Ada, had found her mother. Shocked and harp

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Broken to see his wife in such a condition, he

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yelled out, help, please, somewhat help. He struggled to lift

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her still slick body out of the tub. He sent

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Ada to their neighbor's house, the Daniels, to ask for help. Martin,

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a physician, was still wearing his lab coat as he

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tried to lift his wife from the tub. Feeling helpless,

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he called nine one one. Christy Daniels ran into the

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McNeill's house, surveyed the situation, and then ran back out

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to get more help. She jogged to Angie Aguilar's house

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and told her to come quickly. Michelle was in trouble.

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As she sprinted back to the mcneills, she called her husband, Doug,

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who was helping another neighbor with the basement remodel. Martin

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needs help, hurry, Christy yelled into the phone. When Doug arrived,

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he helped to pull Michelle from the tub. Her lips

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were blue, her skin gray and lifeless. Green mucus covered

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her face. The men set her on the ground and

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Martin and Christie started CPR. As Martin tried to breathe

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life into his wife, he repeated, Oh my God, Oh

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my God, Why all this for a stupid surgery? Shouldn't

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have done this. He asked Christy to go wait for

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the ambulance. Doug stood by, watching, waiting to jump in

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and help. He noticed that when Martin blew into Michelle,

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her chest didn't rise, but he didn't say anything because

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he assumed a doctor would know what he was doing.

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Martin made a fist and hit Michelle hard in the chest,

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just as two officers appeared in the doorway to the bathroom.

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Why God, why, Martin began talking to the officers. I'm

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I'm her husband. I've found her in the bathtub. She

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just had surgery, she had a face lift, she was

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on a lot of medication. She may have slipped or fallen.

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As the e MTS took over CPR, Michelle's skin began

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to pink and slightly, and she made faint, gurgling noises,

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and suddenly she spewed a large amount of liquid from

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her lungs several cups. As the medics continued their life

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saving efforts, Michelle expelled foamy blood tinged fluid, but she

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still had no heartbeat. They didn't give up. The first

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responder started an IVY and administered epinephrine and other medications

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in an attempt to restart her heart. Bart And looked

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up as if to the heavens and yelled, after all

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I've done for you, after all the time I've spent

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in church, Why why have you done this to me?

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He ranted. I've been a bishop, I've paid tithing and

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this is the way you repay me. This is what

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I get for it. I apologize for my dramatic reading

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of this, but he was very unhinged. He was screaming

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and yelling, and you could just picture him like waving

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his arms and this dramatic, over the top past.

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I can get a sense from it from your dramatic reading.

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When the EMTs asked him to talk to the doctor

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at the hospital on the phone who was awaiting Michelle,

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he refused and yelled, I'm a doctor, I know she's dead.

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I chose not to play the nine to one one

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call because he was screaming in at the phone. He

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was overwrought with emotion and he was very unhinged. I'm

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curious if our listeners prefer when we play them or not.

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I feel like they're polarizing. Yeah, sometimes people want to

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hear them and sometimes they don't. But what to this scene?

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What stands out to you?

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Well, his reaction stands out to me. I mean it

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seems like a harrowing scene and you bringing the neighbors

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and a lot of people coming in and trying to help,

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and then having like this liquid expel from her lungs,

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like makes me think oh she was, it was still

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possible to save her. I'm not a EMT or a doctor,

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but it seems like if you know, they were able

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to get this liquid out of her lungs, that seems

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like maybe there was a hope of saving her. And

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if he was a doctor, it feels like he maybe

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didn't do as much as he could have.

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That's a really good point. I'm not sure if that's

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true or not. I think if someone has already passed,

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you can still get if you're doing CPR correctly, Yeah,

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the liquid will still be expelled from their lungs.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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But as a doctor, yeah, he should have The liquid

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should have come out when he was doing CPR if

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he was doing it correctly. People said that she had

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I think drowning victims off and have like this mucus

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on their face, and none of it had transferred to

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his face, so he wasn't breathing correctly.

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Well, and you mentioned I think that the neighbor didn't

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see her chest moving up and down when he was

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breathing into her, which sounds like a little bit of

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a clue to me that maybe he wasn't doing quite

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what he should have done.

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It's heartbreaking to think that she could have been saved

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had he been performing CPR correctly. But also when he

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was yelling at God, that was interesting to me too.

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And he still has his lab coat on. I think

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most doctors, before you leave the office, you would remove

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your lab coat. I would to me, it indicates that

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maybe he knew that if he had this lab coat

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on when the EMTs were coming in the room, that

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you know, he they would know that he was a

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doctor and her. Yeah, like he might have been acting

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here and the things that he was yelling to God,

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it seems like it's a transactional relationship, you know, when

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he's like, God, why would you be doing this to me? Yeah?

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And I feel like that's really not the way that

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you should look at your relationship.

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Right.

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While EMTs took Michelle to the nearby American Fork Hospital,

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the police began questioning Martin. He said he'd left her

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alone for only a few minutes fifteen at most, and

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when he'd he found her bent over the side of

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the tub, her face submerged in a tub filled with water.

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This is a scene that the people that came into

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the room said that she was submerged, but that. Martin

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said that she was draped over the side of the tub,

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so that's really it's confusing. Michelle arrived at the hospital

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at twelve twenty four pm. The attending physician noted lividity

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in Michelle's lower body and knew any attempts at resuscitation

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were likely futile, but he continued the effort. Martin McNeil

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showed up a few minutes after Michelle and continued to

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scream to the heavens, why did she do this? I

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told her not to do this. He was belligerent and

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in the way. Security was called to remove him from

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the er. After thirty eight minutes, life saving measures were

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seized and Michelle McNeil fifty was declared dead. Before he

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was removed, Martin begged the doctor to continue CPR. I'll

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give you ten thousand dollars to keep going, he pleaded.

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Once again, as a doctor, he would probably know that

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money is not going to help solve this.

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Yeah, and they had worked on Michelle for probably at

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least an hour at her house and then thirty eight

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minutes in there.

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Or so, And you mentioned lividity too. That takes a

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while for that to set in. So yeah, it's clear

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that there was no hope at that point.

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Michelle Marie Summers was born on January fifteenth, nineteen fifty seven.

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She grew up in a large family in Concord, California,

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about thirty miles east of San Francisco. Michelle was one

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of seven children born to Helen and Milton Somers. Michelle

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was the youngest of four sisters, Susan, Terry, and Linda,

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and she also had three older brothers, Stephen, Richard, and Mick.

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Helen Summers was just seventeen when she gave birth to

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her first child, Stephen. For the next twenty years, she

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was most often pregnant or nursing. Milton worked in various

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sales jobs. He was an alcoholic and not a present

293
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nurturing father, though the Summers kids remember a mostly happy childhood.

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Growing up in the Mormon church, Michelle was a pretty

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girl with long blonde hair and bright blue eyes. Her

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sisters called her the princess of the family, but Michelle

297
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preferred client trees and playing outside to playing dress up.

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People were drawn to Michelle for her natural, unfettered beauty

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and kindness. She loved school and learning and was a

300
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straight A student. She played the violin, dance ballet, acted

301
00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.799
in plays, and learned French. In high school, she was

302
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a cheerleader and voted homecoming queen. During her senior year,

303
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she spent a semester in Switzerland as a foreign exchange student.

304
00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:27.120
After she graduated in nineteen seventy five, she worked as

305
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a model and competed on beauty pageants. In nineteen seventy six,

306
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she won the Miss Concord pageant. The next year, Michelle's

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00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:38.759
parents divorced. After the divorce, Helen and her youngest daughters

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00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:42.519
moved to Mission Viejo. Milton remarried, but Helen never did.

309
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In nineteen seventy seven, while attending a singles event at church,

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Michelle met a handsome young man named Martin McNeil.

311
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Born on February first, nineteen fifty six, to Lillian Woody

312
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and Albert McNeil. Martin had a rough beginning. He was

313
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raised in extreme poverty in ca Hampden, New Jersey, alongside

314
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.480
his two older brothers, Rufus and Albert Junior, his younger

315
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.559
brother Scott, and his two sisters, Alice and Mary. Albert,

316
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.879
a Navy veteran, was twenty three years older than Lillian,

317
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.600
he was fifty eight years old when Martin was born.

318
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The mcneils fought often and hard, leading Albert to leave

319
00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.480
the family and relocate to Long Beach, California. Years later,

320
00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.559
as a teenager, Martin joined his father there, where he

321
00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.039
completed high school. The trauma of their childhood cast a

322
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.799
long shadow over the lives of the McNeil siblings. Two

323
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:38.200
died by suicide, one from complications related to alcoholism and

324
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.759
another from a heroin overdose. Oh it's really devastating. Only

325
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.879
Martin and his sister Mary, who also moved to California

326
00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.759
and married there, seemed to break free from the cycle,

327
00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.240
although later Martin's life would fall apart two in a

328
00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:57.080
different way. Despite his dysfunctional upbringing, Martin excelled in school

329
00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.600
and devoured books of all genres. He discover a love

330
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.440
for acting, appearing in plays during high school. Handsome but

331
00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:08.759
socially awkward, Martin's classmates found him quirky and off putting,

332
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.559
earning him the nickname Martin the Martian. Behind the scenes,

333
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.759
he struggled with depression and difficulty regulating his moods, and

334
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:20.720
as a teenager he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The

335
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:25.120
diagnosis intrigued him, and he decided to study psychiatry. In

336
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.720
nineteen seventy three, at just seventeen years old, Martin lied

337
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.600
about his age to enlist in the Army. During his

338
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time in the military, his mental health began to deteriorate.

339
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:39.360
He started hearing voices and became increasingly aggressive toward his

340
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fellow soldiers. Concerned, his superiors sent him for psychiatric evaluation,

341
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:49.320
where he was labeled a latent schizophrenic. After serving two years,

342
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Martin was discharged from the army. Although he had never

343
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been particularly religious, Martin became involved with the Mormon Church

344
00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.600
after his stint in the army. He quickly grew deeply

345
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.000
commited and decided to serve a mission, but once again

346
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his plans were derailed by his mental health struggles. After

347
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.799
only a few months, he was sent home due to

348
00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.079
concerns about his mental instability. Martin then enrolled at Saint

349
00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:18.000
Martin's University in Olympia, Washington to study psychology. He graduated

350
00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.000
in nineteen seventy seven in just two years, with dual

351
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:26.599
degrees in sociology and psychology. Two years for completing dual degrees,

352
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:32.160
that's pretty amazing, Okay, After graduation, he moved in with

353
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.799
his sister Mary in Mission Viejo. After watching a segment

354
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.000
on Sixty Minutes about check fraud, Martin attempted a similar scheme.

355
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.640
He obtained a man's birth certificate, secured a forged driver's license,

356
00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.680
and opened a checking account in the man's name. To

357
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avoid suspicion, he dressed in expensive designer clothing and proceeded

358
00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.880
to go on an extravagant shopping spree, spending about thirty

359
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.559
five thousand dollars nearly two hundred thousand dollars today on furniture,

360
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:05.519
designer clothing, jewelry, and other luxury items. He was eventually

361
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:10.599
arrested and charged with fourteen felonies, including identity theft. Martin

362
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:15.680
pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, citing his schizophrenia diagnosis.

363
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.039
He was still facing those legal troubles when he met

364
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.240
Michelle Summers. I'm just going to say, if you see

365
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.039
a sixty Minutes and you see a story about a

366
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.119
crime being committed, that's probably not the best idea. To say,

367
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:29.839
what a great idea, I'm going to go and commit

368
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the same crime.

369
00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.440
I remember seeing his sixty Minutes about people who developed

370
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some sort of special system to win the lottery. And

371
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:38.799
then I was like, I'm going to win the lottery.

372
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If they can do it, I can do it.

373
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But you didn't.

374
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:42.519
I think you have to be good at math to

375
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.240
do ah. Yes, not bad at math.

376
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:47.440
But we'll be back after a break.

377
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Michelle and Martin met at an event held in the

378
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Mormons Single Ward in late nineteen seventy seven. In the beginning,

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their love burnt red hot. Martin was obsessed with Michelle,

380
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and she enjoyed the intensity of his love, but before

381
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.319
long she grew wary of his constant attention. Anne decided

382
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:14.720
to end their romance, but when she tried to break

383
00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.200
up with Martin, he put a gun to his temple

384
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.079
and threatened to pull the trigger. She retracted the break up.

385
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As their unhealthy relationship continued, Martin became controlling, causing Michelle's

386
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.759
inner light to dim. Her family noticed the difference in her.

387
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.519
Her sister Linda Kloff said, there were fights and she

388
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.519
couldn't take it. You could see the stress in her face.

389
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.920
I don't know what happened. Her whole world changed in

390
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.440
a few months after meeting him. When Michelle's family met Martin,

391
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:48.039
they disliked him immediately and sensed an unhealthy relationship. Linda said,

392
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.279
I thought he was just a big actor. He just

393
00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.440
gave me the creeps. He was self absorbed. It became

394
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.000
more and more apparent each time I saw him that

395
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.319
he believed he was superior to anyone else, and he

396
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.279
thought very highly of himself. Michelle's family implored her to

397
00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.480
end the relationship, but she had a great deal of empathy,

398
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:09.599
and she viewed everything with Martin through the lens of

399
00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:14.039
his difficult childhood. On February twenty first, nineteen seventy eight,

400
00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.480
Michelle twenty one and Martin twenty two were quietly married

401
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.759
by the Justice of the Peace, with just the two

402
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.400
of them in attendance. They had only known each other.

403
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.359
A few months later, their marriage was sealed in the

404
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.640
Mormon Temple, a sacred ceremony meant to bind them together

405
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.039
not just in this life, but in the life to come.

406
00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.440
Michelle didn't tell her family until two weeks later, when

407
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:36.920
Martin showed up to help her pack her belongings and

408
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.799
move out of the family home in with him. A

409
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.160
couple of weeks later, Michelle's mother, Helen, was flipping through

410
00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:47.160
the newspaper. When a headline stopped her cold brilliant forgery spree.

411
00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.920
Inspired by TV, she read further, a sense of dread

412
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.079
settled upon her. The article was about Martin. Shocked and alarmed,

413
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.480
Helen went straight to the court house, determined to learn more.

414
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.960
When she obtained the records, her worst fears deepened. The

415
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.759
documents detailed Martin's psychological diagnoses by polar disorder and schizophrenia.

416
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.440
Helen was terrified for her daughter's future, and for any

417
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.960
children Michelle might have. One day. The unease gnawed at her.

418
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.160
She confided in one of her daughters, voicing a chilling,

419
00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.200
prescient fear, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed her

420
00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.720
one day. Helen didn't tell Michelle of her concerns. She

421
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:28.599
had already begun to sense how controlling Martin could be,

422
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.839
and she worried that raising alarms would only make things worse.

423
00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.519
If Michelle repeated her mother's fears, Helen suspected Martin might

424
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.720
tighten his grip even further, limiting visits, screening phone calls,

425
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.599
or cutting off contact altogether. Their time with Michelle already

426
00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.039
felt restricted, and Helen feared losing what little access she

427
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.440
still had to her daughter, so she stayed quiet, choosing

428
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.920
to remain close in whatever way she could, watching carefully

429
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.480
and hoping she was wrong, even as her unnies continued

430
00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.000
to grow.

431
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.119
Now do you know if Michelle knew about his forgery

432
00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:03.960
and identity fraud scheme.

433
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.279
I'm not sure if she knew before they were married,

434
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:09.160
but she knew pretty soon after because he was going

435
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:13.240
to court and get But the timeline of them meeting,

436
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:16.200
I think they met in like November and then they

437
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.960
were married in late February, so they really Yeah, it

438
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.599
was really quick. One day, Martin left his briefcase in

439
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:26.079
Helen's car after she'd loaned it to him. Curiosity got

440
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.680
the better of her, and she opened it insiet She

441
00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:32.160
found blank stationary and an official looking seal from Saint

442
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:36.759
Martin's University, where he'd attended undergrad but not formed in

443
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.400
Helen's stomach. As her suspicions grew, she pressed a sheet

444
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.319
of paper against the seal, making an imprint of the

445
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:48.119
university seal, before carefully returning everything to the briefcase. Why

446
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.519
would Martin have something like that? Helen tucked the paper

447
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.359
away with the court documents that she'd obtained I'm sure

448
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.960
if she'd ever need them, but saving it gave her

449
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.640
a small sense of reassurance. She held onto those documents

450
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:05.079
for thirty years. That summer, Martin accepted a plea deal

451
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.559
on the theft charges and was sentenced to six months

452
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.640
in jail. When he was released, he vowed to leave

453
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.039
his past behind, promising Michelle that he would work hard

454
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:15.759
and build a better life for them.

455
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.039
I'm curious about this detail of him having this seal?

456
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.160
Can you describe what that is? Well?

457
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.240
Do you know when you have an official document like

458
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:28.000
your birth certificate or some if you go to the notary, right,

459
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.440
it's he had the tool that you make the official

460
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:31.960
seal with.

461
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:33.240
Okay, he had the tool.

462
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:36.279
I believe that's the case. Yes, So why he must

463
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:38.799
have Yeah, that would be very o across it or

464
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:39.519
taken it.

465
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:41.680
Yeah, that would be very strange that he would have that.

466
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.559
After Martin's release from jail, he and Michelle quickly began

467
00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.920
building their family. They had four children in five years.

468
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.880
On October eleventh, nineteen seventy nine, they welcomed their first child,

469
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.880
a daughter they named Rachel renee McNeil. Michelle was twenty two,

470
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.799
Martin twenty three, Michelle doted on the baby and loved

471
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.680
being a mother. Martin abandoned his earlier plans of studying

472
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.799
psychiatry and instead focused on becoming a general practicing physician

473
00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:12.519
and enrolled in medical school at the Guadalajara School of

474
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.519
Medicine in Guadalajara, Mexico. He may have chosen this path

475
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.759
because his criminal record limited his options. The program allowed

476
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.200
American students to attend medical school, completing four years in

477
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:28.079
Mexico before returning to the United States for clinical rotations

478
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.640
and residency training. Graduates still had to pass the same

479
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:35.680
licensing exams to practice medicine in the United States. Thousands

480
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.079
of American medical students took this same route at the time.

481
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.599
The mcneils moved to Mexico for a brief period before

482
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:46.599
Martin withdrew from the program and instead entered the College

483
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:51.680
of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific in Pomoma, California, studying

484
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.839
osteopathic medicine. Osteopathic medicine is patient centered, holistic approach to

485
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:02.119
healthcare that emphasizes treating the whole person, body, mind, and

486
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:07.200
overall well being rather than just symptoms. Doctors of osteopathic

487
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.039
medicine or doos, are fully licensed physicians who can prescribe

488
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.279
medication and perform surgery, but they also receive specialized training

489
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.240
in the musculoskeletal system and hands on techniques known as

490
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:25.880
osteopathic manipulative treatment or OMT. The philosophy of osteopathic medicine

491
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.359
is built on several core principles, including the unity of

492
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.759
the body, the body's ability to heal itself, the relationship

493
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:37.319
between structure and function, and the importance of rational holistic treatment.

494
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:42.400
Because of this approach, osteopathic medicine often emphasizes prevention and

495
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:46.599
overall health, not just treating illnesses. In the nineteen seventies

496
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:50.920
and nineteen eighties, doctors of osteopathic medicine were sometimes viewed

497
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:54.359
as less prestigious within parts of the medical community, in

498
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.240
part because osteopathic schools were often easier to gain admission to.

499
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:03.839
Howevers received similar medical training to mds, along with additional

500
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:08.480
instruction in musculoskeletal medicine and hands on treatment techniques. Today,

501
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:12.400
the distinction between MD's and doos is largely seamless, with

502
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.359
both training and practicing side by side. Martin graduated from

503
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.119
the program in nineteen eighty three with a degree in

504
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:23.720
osteopathic surgery. He completed his residency in Flushing, New York.

505
00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:27.480
When his education was complete, the family moved to Utah,

506
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:31.279
where Martin became a licensed deo. So that was kind

507
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:36.240
of a lot about osteopaths. I mentioned it because some

508
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:39.720
people would question whether his training was legitimate or not.

509
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:43.559
I think it was had good training. I think he

510
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:45.240
might not have been the best doctor though.

511
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.440
Okay. Meanwhile, Michelle was busy with the McNeil's growing family.

512
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.720
They welcomed Vanessa Marie in nineteen eighty one, Alexis Michelle

513
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:57.759
in nineteen eighty two, and Damian Alexander in nineteen eighty five.

514
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.440
The McNeil children remember a childhood centered around their loving mother.

515
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.160
Alexis said, I had a wonderful childhood. My mom was

516
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.599
always there and just the best person. The children recall

517
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.519
that their father, too, was gentle and kind with them,

518
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.519
even though he was often working. Much of their life

519
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.960
centered around the Mormon Church. The mcneils were pillars of

520
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.480
the church, admired as a beautiful, seemingly perfect family. Martin

521
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:26.119
had even served as a bishop, a position of deep

522
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:29.599
trust and authority which only reinforced the image he worked

523
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.559
so carefully to maintain. He puffed his chest out in

524
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.519
pride as they entered church each week. The girls were

525
00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:39.480
always poised and well behaved, wearing pretty dresses, their hair

526
00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:42.359
tied up in matching ribbons, with Damien in a little

527
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:46.079
suit and tie sharply pressed. Michelle built her days around

528
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:50.240
her children, volunteering at their schools, sewing their dance costumes.

529
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.599
All of them studied ballet. Michelle later served as a

530
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:57.240
board member for the Utah Regional Ballet. Martin worked at

531
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:01.759
a variety of clinics, hospitals on the Brigham Young University campus,

532
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:06.000
and even an Indian reservation, often working multiple jobs or

533
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.440
side hustles. He even found time to participate in local

534
00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:13.519
theater productions. Martin, it seemed, was quite the actor. While

535
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:16.880
working at BYU, he decided to enter law school. He

536
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.279
graduated in nineteen ninety. He never took the bar exam,

537
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.559
but worked in medical law before working again full time

538
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.440
at BYU's medical center. The family had moved many times

539
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.480
over the years, but in nineteen ninety three, they finally

540
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.279
settled in Salem, Utah, in a one hundred year old

541
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:34.400
Victorian house.

542
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.160
I've seen pictures and it was definitely haunted.

543
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.000
After five years, they again relocated to Aorum, Utah, to

544
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.160
a six bedroom, eight bathroom, eleven thousand square foot mansion.

545
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.240
While eleven thousand square feet pretty big, along with the

546
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:53.319
financial success came multiple luxury cars and five star beach vacations.

547
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.599
I've always thought that the golden ticket is having your

548
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.039
law degree and your medical.

549
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:01.960
Yeah, I mean that, really, you can write your own

550
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.279
ticket with that. After the move, Michelle again threw herself

551
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.920
into the Mormon Church and served as president of the

552
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:12.039
church's Relief Society. She developed a close knit, deep friendship

553
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:16.000
with three other women, Cheryl, Loreen, and Karen. They called

554
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.119
themselves the ya Ya Sisters, after the popular book and

555
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.839
movie of the time. For the rest of their lives,

556
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:25.880
despite their location or circumstances, the women remained the best

557
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.119
of friends. Martin's career appeared to be on the rise

558
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.400
when the governor of Utah appointed him medical director of

559
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:36.440
the Utah State Developmental Center, a facility that provided round

560
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.519
the clock care for two hundred and sixty five individuals

561
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:43.240
with developmental disabilities. From the outside, it seemed like a

562
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:48.039
significant achievement. His success increased his already inflated ego and

563
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:51.160
made him difficult to work with. Talking with Martin could

564
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:56.359
be frustrating. He dominated conversations, dismissed opposing viewpoints, and left

565
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.519
little space for discussion. Friends and coworkers said he rarely

566
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.839
entertained the possibility that he might be wrong, But according

567
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.680
to Shanna Hogan's The Stranger She Loved, Martin's relationships with

568
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.319
co workers told a different story. Many described him as

569
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.519
intimidating and domineering, with some questioning his medical competence. Staff

570
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:20.480
Members said he bullied vulnerable medical residents, and his leadership

571
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:24.640
style drove experienced nurses and doctors away from the facility.

572
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.960
Nurse practitioner Stephen Nicholson, who worked closely with Martin for

573
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.680
seven years, described carefully navigating Martin's personality. He has a

574
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.160
very strong personality. I didn't give him reason to be defensive,

575
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.720
but I knew that was something I had to manage

576
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.920
swimming through rough waters. I just approached him differently in

577
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.839
social settings. Outside of work, Martin could be brusque and condescending,

578
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:53.440
often struggling in social situations and leaving others uncomfortable. At home. However,

579
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:56.559
his children remembered a different side of him, a father

580
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.559
who was warm, playful, and genuinely funny, someone who dropped

581
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.880
the formality and simply enjoyed being with them. His children

582
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.920
all looked up to him, but beneath the surface, trouble

583
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.400
was brewing, and the carefully crafted tapestry of the McNeil's

584
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.400
life was coming apart at the seams, even if none

585
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:14.400
of them realized it.

586
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:17.119
So it seems that Martin did have two sides to

587
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:19.880
his personality, because his kids said when they were little,

588
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:23.200
he was really sweet and engaged and would wrestle with

589
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.960
them and play with them, and they had fond memories

590
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.559
of him. At some point he did kind of change,

591
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.640
but we'll get to that soon.

592
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.240
Well, I was going to ask you about his schizophrenia,

593
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.319
because he was diagnosed with that, you know, a few

594
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:38.200
years earlier. Yeah, was any was he doing anything like

595
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.880
to help with that?

596
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.359
That is a very good question. People diagnosed with schizophrenia

597
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:47.200
sometimes experience a decrease in their symptoms as they move

598
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.839
in their thirties and beyond. While the condition is typically lifelong,

599
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.079
many individuals find that symptoms become more manageable over time.

600
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.839
Research suggests that about twenty to thirty percent of people

601
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.839
improved substantially, forty to fifty percent continued to experience ongoing

602
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.359
but manageable symptoms, and roughly twenty percent have more persistent

603
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.839
severe symptoms. Factors such as treatment, stability, and support can

604
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.559
play an important role in long term outcomes, although symptoms

605
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:19.960
can worsen at any time due to stress or other triggers.

606
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.960
But some people have suggested that Martin manufactured the schizophrenia

607
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.880
symptoms to get out of the military and his mission work. Interesting,

608
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.599
So Martin was an extremely intelligent man. M hmmm, if

609
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:33.640
I haven't made that clear.

610
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:37.480
Yeah. As the children grew up, Martin seemed to withdraw,

611
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:41.839
becoming increasingly distant and less involved in their lives. Michelle's

612
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:44.599
sister Linda said that the pressure to be perfect was

613
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:48.559
omnipresent for the mcneils. It wasn't a normal family. They

614
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.480
were so used to portraying what they wanted people to believe.

615
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:55.000
Their house was crazy. There would be these great, big fights,

616
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.279
but then they'd all walk out the door and they'd

617
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:00.440
be perfect. Michelle nor the children were allowed to talk

618
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:03.799
about their family issues to friends or family. When Martin

619
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.799
returned home from work, he often withdrew to his study,

620
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:10.599
closing the door and spending hours alone. One evening, Michelle

621
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:14.559
discovered him looking at pornography, something strictly forbidden in the

622
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.720
Mormon faith and an issue that had caused tension between

623
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.440
them before. Martin had promised to stop, but the discovery

624
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.799
ignited another argument. In the midst of the chaos, Martin

625
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:28.160
grabbed a butcher's knife, waving the silver blade through the air,

626
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.599
threatening Michelle. The children were horrified. Fifteen year old Damien

627
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:35.519
rushed in and tackled his father to the ground, wrestling

628
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.640
the knife from his hands. A neighbor overheard the argument

629
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.519
and called the police. They took Martin to the hospital,

630
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.559
where he was placed on a twenty four hour psychiatric hold.

631
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:48.400
For a man who carefully cultivated an image of respectability

632
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:52.279
and control, the incident was deeply humiliating, a crack in

633
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:55.559
the carefully constructed facade that he had worked so hard

634
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:59.680
to maintain. That is a really terrifying scene waving around

635
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.000
a butcher's knife.

636
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.480
Yeah, at this point it seemed like some of the

637
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:06.720
stressors were starting to show with Martin.

638
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.440
What Michelle didn't know was that pornography was the lesser

639
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:14.119
evil of her husband's addictions. Over the years, he engaged

640
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:18.280
in numerous consensual affairs, perhaps dozens, but there were also

641
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:22.280
allegations that his conduct crossed a more troubling line. Martin

642
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.360
was accused of pursuing women in places where he held

643
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:30.320
positions of trust. At medical practices where he worked, at church, online,

644
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:35.320
and even among patients. His relationships often involved vulnerable women,

645
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.679
including those who were newly divorced or single mothers. The pattern,

646
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.840
according to those who later came forward, helped explain his

647
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.719
frequent job changes and the instability that followed him from

648
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.480
one workplace to another. Other troubling behavior and lapses in

649
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:55.039
judgment soon followed. Martin was caught fraudulently billing Medicaid for

650
00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:59.239
services that were never provided, a violation that ultimately resulted

651
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.400
in a twelveth your ban from participating in the program.

652
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:06.239
Wouldn't you think that fraudulently building medicaid would result in

653
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:07.920
a more serious consequence.

654
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.840
Yeah, I would think that is a crime, but maybe

655
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.400
it's just, you know, for the first infraction, that's maybe

656
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.760
just what they do because it's probably more involved to

657
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.039
go through court proceedings and everything like that. But yeah,

658
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.000
that's a pretty serious offense.

659
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:23.559
I would think your medical license would be suspended for

660
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.320
a year. I don't know.

661
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:29.119
Yeah, And for someone making as much money as he was,

662
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.920
why would you do something like that. It just seems

663
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:33.519
like I just don't.

664
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:35.119
Get it, you know, that's Martin. Yeah.

665
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:39.000
As the McNeil children grew into adults, the carefully curated

666
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.440
image of a perfect family began to unravel. The effects

667
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.920
of their upbringing didn't fade with time. They lingered, resulting

668
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:50.079
in strained relationships, mental health struggles, and lives that often

669
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.840
drifted off course. Rachel, the oldest of the McNeil children,

670
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:57.519
married shortly after graduating from high school. She was bright

671
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.599
and capable, but often seemed unmoor, drifting through life without

672
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.840
a clear sense of direction. Her marriage didn't last long,

673
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:09.519
strained in part by her increasingly erratic behavior. At twenty one,

674
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:13.639
she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She married again, hoping

675
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:17.599
for stability, but that relationship also quickly ended in divorce.

676
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.320
She moved from state to state, job to job, searching

677
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.159
for happiness and peace that evaded her. Eventually, she enrolled

678
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:28.400
in school to become a dental hygienist, finding comfort in

679
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:32.320
the structure and predictability that the profession offered to cope

680
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.239
with her extreme anxiety. Second born Vanessa, turned to drugs

681
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.920
and alcohol in high school, resulting in risky behavior. When

682
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.599
she was eighteen, she became pregnant. In March two thousand one,

683
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.239
Vanessa gave birth to a baby girl named Ada. Michelle

684
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.800
and Martin adopted Ada, while Vanessa continued on a downward

685
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:54.519
spiral and became a full blown heroin addict, often living

686
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:57.079
on the streets. She was in and out of rehab

687
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.840
paid for by her parents, but she was never clean

688
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:03.599
for long. Martin wrote her off, embarrassed by her, but

689
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:05.320
Michelle never gave up on her.

690
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:07.320
Never ever give up on your children.

691
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.800
No, for sure, It's so sad. Alexis fared better than

692
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:14.480
her sisters. She attended Brigham Young University and then enrolled

693
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:20.280
in medical school at Turo University, Nevada College of Osteopathic Medicine. Damian,

694
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:24.119
the youngest, and his father shared a peculiar yet close bond.

695
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:28.199
He was also very close with Michelle. Damien was diagnosed

696
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.679
with bipolar disorder in his late teens. He suffered with

697
00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:34.800
long bouts of severe depression, but decided to go on

698
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.360
a Mormon mission. After high school graduation, he spent two

699
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:41.800
years in Japan before coming back to Utah and enrolling

700
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:45.719
at Utah Valley University to study law. In law school,

701
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.519
he met and began dating Eileen Heng, a fellow law student.

702
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.440
Will be back. After a break.

703
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.840
With only Ada at home, the McNeill's sprawling mansion began

704
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.119
to feel too quiet in cavernous. They worried that their

705
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:08.880
granddaughter might grow up lonely without siblings to share her childhood.

706
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:11.679
In two thousand and three, they decided to expand their

707
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:16.400
family through adoption, welcoming three girls from Ukraine, twelve year

708
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:20.440
olds Noel and Giselle and ten year old El. Some

709
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:23.960
believed the adoptions weren't about family at all, that Martin

710
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.440
saw the children as a way to keep Michelle busy

711
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:29.079
and blind to what he was doing behind her back.

712
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:32.960
Growing up in a Ukrainian orphanage had been brutal, with

713
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.599
limited resources like food and clothing, but also a lack

714
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:40.199
of affection and love. Once in the US, Michelle treated

715
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.199
the girls like dolls. She dressed them in matching fully

716
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:46.719
dresses and enrolled them in ballet classes. She loved her

717
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:51.280
new daughters, but the transition was more difficult than she'd anticipated. Elle,

718
00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:54.199
the youngest, adapted quicker, but the two older girls had

719
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.800
a hard time adjusting to life with the mcneils and

720
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.960
struggled with learning the language and fitting in with the family.

721
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:03.519
Noel even ran away. Michelle sent her to live in

722
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:07.280
Michigan in a home for children with reactive detachment disorder.

723
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:11.000
Her adoption was later severed and she became a ward

724
00:39:11.079 --> 00:39:14.119
of the state of Michigan. So the girls, I don't

725
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.639
believe they were related, but all three of them came

726
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:20.039
I think from the same orphanage. According to the Mayo Clinic,

727
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:23.679
reactive attachment disorder is a rare of it serious condition

728
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.280
in which an infant or young child is unable to

729
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.920
form healthy attachments with parents or caregivers. It can develop

730
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:33.360
when a child's basic needs for comfort, affection, and nurturing

731
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.480
go unmet, making it difficult to build stable, secure relationships.

732
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:41.800
With treatment, along with education and support for parents or caregivers,

733
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:46.480
children can improve and begin to form healthier attachments. From

734
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:51.199
what I know about psychology of development, mean you really

735
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:54.360
need that nurturing and love in the first three years

736
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.239
of life, or it's really hard to make those strong

737
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.360
bonds that you need with parenting a child's so I

738
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.920
can understand that. Michelle thought, you know, I'm going to

739
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:04.679
love these kids and I'm going to give them the

740
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:05.719
best life possible.

741
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.199
Yeah, it's hard when they haven't had what they needed

742
00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:10.280
for the first, you know, several years of their life.

743
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:14.320
Exactly after Nowhela left the family, the mcneils adopted another

744
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.760
child from Ukraine, Sabrina. She and l had grown up

745
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.039
together in the same orphanage and were close friends. Sabrina

746
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:24.280
had initially been adopted by another family along with her

747
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:28.199
younger sister, but she later recalled feeling unwanted there, as

748
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.000
though the family had only truly wanted the younger child.

749
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.119
During a visit to Utah to see Elle, the McNeil's

750
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:37.239
got to know Sabrina and ultimately decided to adopt her.

751
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.599
In her new homes, she flourished. Years later, Sabrina reflected,

752
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.679
it was wonderful. I had always dreamed for a family

753
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:47.599
like the mcneils. When I was first adopted, my mom

754
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.440
was just wonderful. It was exactly what I dreamed of,

755
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:54.119
just perfect. Michelle doated on her new daughters, but Martin

756
00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:58.719
remained more distant. And detached, never quite accepting the adopted children.

757
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:01.679
I forgot to get of a content warning at the

758
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.880
top of the episode, but we have a brief discussion

759
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.480
here of child sexual abuse that should only last about

760
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.559
twenty seconds if you want to fast forward. Giselle accused

761
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:14.440
Martin of molesting her, quote, he was touching me in

762
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:16.920
weird places. I don't know what it was about me.

763
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.639
He was always touching me. I always felt weird. Since

764
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.440
Noel had left the family, Giselle felt like she was

765
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:26.400
now labeled the difficult child, and she never fit in.

766
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:30.039
She hated school, refused to go to ballet, and rejected

767
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:33.119
the Mormon church. When she told Michelle about the sexual

768
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.599
abuse that she'd suffered, she told her they could never

769
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:39.079
speak of it again. She wasn't outright punished, but Michelle

770
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:41.519
was harder on her and made her do more chores

771
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:44.320
than the other girls, who, in Giselle's eyes, were perfect

772
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.199
little princesses who did as they were told and got

773
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.519
straight a's in school. Most troubling of all her behaviors

774
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.760
was that Giselle refused to keep quiet about what was

775
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:55.800
going on in the family, revealing dark secrets. The fe

776
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:58.920
McNeil's preferred to keep buried, so none of the other

777
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.159
kids said anything like this, but that was Giselle's version

778
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:05.599
of events, who is now estranged from the rest of

779
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.679
the family. Two thousand and five was the hardest year

780
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:12.360
yet of the McNeil's marriage. Unbeknownst to Michelle, Martin was

781
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.920
juggling two affairs in addition to his career, church and

782
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.079
their children. Michelle and Martin had an ugly fight after

783
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:22.519
she found pornography on his computer. I don't love you anymore.

784
00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:25.039
I don't want to live here with you. Martin spat

785
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:28.440
out in anger. He revealed that he regretted adopting their

786
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:32.960
daughters and didn't love them either. His words destroyed Michelle.

787
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.679
Anna Osborne Whitehall was a mother of two young boys

788
00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:39.719
in her forties going through a contentious divorce. When she

789
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:43.440
first met Martin, she owned a medspa called Sona Medspa

790
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.719
in Park City, Utah. Requires medspas to have a licensed

791
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.400
position on staff to oversee their procedures. She hired Martin

792
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.320
and they started an affair. He opened up to Anna

793
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.000
in ways he never had to Michelle, revealing to her

794
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:01.239
his most secret, dark thoughts. Mar and McNeil had a

795
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:02.880
dark passenger.

796
00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:05.960
A dark passenger much like Dexter? Right, is that where

797
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:06.360
that's from?

798
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:10.679
Exactly like Dexter? Martin admitted to Anna that he'd tried

799
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.880
to kill his mother, an alcoholic, when he was just eight.

800
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:16.480
He put several types of pills he found in the

801
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:19.280
medicine cabinet into a can of beer and fed it

802
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:21.760
to her, putting the can up to her lips. She

803
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.119
swallowed the beer and soon passed out cold. When Martin's

804
00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:27.519
sister came home, she thought that her mother had taken

805
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.119
the pills on her own in an attempt to take

806
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:32.760
her own life. She called an ambulance in the nick

807
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.840
of time. Martin admitted that when he was a teen,

808
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.119
he'd also drowned his brother, a drug addict, after he

809
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:42.159
found him unconscious in a bathtub, he dunked his head

810
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:46.079
underwater until he stopped breathing. He confessed to Anna that

811
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.280
he thought about killing his daughter, Vanessa because she'd been

812
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.480
such an embarrassment to the family after her drug addiction,

813
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.920
and he also offered to kill Anna's ex husband. Martin's

814
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:00.880
homicidal urgis fascinated Anna when her me spop business went

815
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:03.440
belly up. She begged him to move to her native

816
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:07.440
Oklahoma with her and her children, despite his dark urges.

817
00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:10.840
Wow, those things that he told there are really like

818
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:13.440
awful things. Is that so those are true? Like he

819
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:13.840
killed me?

820
00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:17.039
We don't know tru or not. This is Martin telling Anna.

821
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:19.400
There was their weird pillow talk.

822
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:21.280
Yeah, but his brother did die.

823
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.519
His brother didn't remember all his siblings, but one had passed.

824
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.679
And yeah, allegedly, you know, Martin hastened to the hot

825
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:30.239
he maybe he would have died from a drug overdose. Anyway,

826
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:33.000
he was thinking the baths of Martin. Yeah, doctor said, Yeah,

827
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:34.599
I mean some pretty scary things.

828
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:39.480
Gypsy Jill Willis became Martin's second paramore in November two

829
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.760
thousand and five. She was born in Saint Anthony, Idaho,

830
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:46.440
in October nineteen seventy six, to Vicki and Howard Willis.

831
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.400
She also came from a Mormon family, the oldest of

832
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.800
four children, two boys and two girls. Her father went

833
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.039
back to school to become a doctor when the children

834
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:58.840
were young, inspiring Gypsy to become a nurse, completing an

835
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:02.400
LPN program high school. She was very bright, but her

836
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:06.199
head was always in the clouds. She believed in fairytale romances.

837
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:10.079
Her mother opined about her oldest daughter, her intellectual ability

838
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:14.039
outstripped her emotional maturity. The summer before she began her

839
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.159
second year in college, she discovered that she was pregnant.

840
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.400
Her boyfriend, a student in engineering, left her when she

841
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:24.119
was nine months pregnant for another woman. Gypsy's parents were

842
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.320
horrified by her pregnancy and largely disowned her, though they

843
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:31.119
maintained limited contact. In the spring of nineteen ninety five,

844
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.119
she gave birth to a daughter she named Heidi Marie.

845
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.679
A year later, she married Jason Jensen, a man from

846
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.960
her church. Later, she said, I didn't want to get married,

847
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.599
but I wanted to fix things with my family, so

848
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:45.599
I got married and tried to patch it up and

849
00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:49.679
make it all better. Gypsy, Jason, and baby Heidi moved

850
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:52.280
to Nebraska, where she worked as a nurse and he

851
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.360
went to culinary school. But two years into the marriage,

852
00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:58.719
they separated. Gypsy moved back to Idaho and lived with

853
00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:02.440
her parents, although her relationship was still strained. When she

854
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.840
was twenty three, she fell in love again with a

855
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.800
man named Eric Blair. When she decided to move in

856
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.679
with him, her parents took custody of Heidi and later

857
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:14.079
adopted her. When Gypsy signed away her parental rights with

858
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.800
the understanding that she could still come and visit as

859
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.480
much as she wanted, she and Eric moved to Salt

860
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:22.679
Lake City, and Gypsy returned to Idaho whenever she could,

861
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:26.320
but during one visit, a dispute over her dog spiraled

862
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:30.440
into a violent confrontation. Gipsy bit her mother severely on

863
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.559
the arm. After that, her parents told her she was

864
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:36.840
no longer welcome. When she sued them for custody, the

865
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:40.320
Willises left the state and moved to Wyoming. She didn't

866
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:43.159
have the money to continue fighting for Heidi, but held

867
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.760
on to the hope that they might reunite once Heidi

868
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.960
turned eighteen. Then, unexpectedly, at a blessing for her brother's

869
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.800
new baby, her parents welcomed her back into the fold

870
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:56.760
and began allowing her occasional visits with her daughter. Gypsy

871
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:00.360
had a whimsical, free spirited nature, drawn to run aissance

872
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:04.400
fairs and more bohemian pursuits. She eschewed the Mormon faith

873
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:08.239
but still carried a deep sense of spirituality. She dated

874
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:11.440
frequently and had several affairs with married men with no

875
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:15.320
intention of ever marrying again. Quote. I've been married, I've

876
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.639
had a baby. I've been kind of traumatized by that

877
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:20.679
whole experience. I don't really want to get married again,

878
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.119
she said later in life, with age and perspective, she

879
00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.000
came to regret that her affairs had hurt others and

880
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:31.039
damaged marriages. When Martin met Gypsy online, she was a

881
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:34.239
twenty nine year old divorced nurse living in Salt Lake City.

882
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.920
Her username on the dating site was Phoenix Sheba. She

883
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:43.400
listed her hobbies as astrology, sphinxes, and quantum physics. Quantum

884
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:44.920
physics of the hobby, that's something.

885
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:46.880
He is a very interesting person.

886
00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:49.840
Martin told her that his name was Joe and he

887
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:52.840
was a thirty nine year old pharmaceutical representative.

888
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:56.360
Why would you make like you're a doctor and just.

889
00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:00.000
Trying to disguise his identity against Years later, Gypsy described

890
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.760
Martin his personality is very strong. He's really terrifically intelligent,

891
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:08.480
very handsome, very tall, just great. In my mind, he

892
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:12.039
was the perfect combination of qualities. I thought he was amazing.

893
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:15.760
I thought this is a really awesome person. Gypsy viewed

894
00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:19.599
Martin as the American version of Prince Charming coming from

895
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.000
his glorious castle. In late November two thousand and five,

896
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:25.719
they met for lunch at Thanksgiving Point. We've been to

897
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:29.519
Thanksgiving Point, that's a place. Martin sheepishly admitted that he

898
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:32.119
had lied to her. He told her he was married

899
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:34.480
and his real name, and that he was actually a

900
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.519
forty nine year old doctor. Gypsy didn't mind at all,

901
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:39.880
not even when he told her that he was seeing

902
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.880
other women and that he would never leave his wife.

903
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:45.559
Martin was so taken with her that he completely broke

904
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.119
things off with Anna. Anna was angry, but also haunted

905
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:53.039
by Martin's dark confessions. She began seeing a psychiatrist and

906
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.320
confided in the doctor that she had dated a serial killer.

907
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:59.400
Looking back on the affair, she was grateful it ended

908
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:01.559
before she he had become a partner in some of

909
00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:03.360
Martin's morbid fantasies.

910
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.719
So I think that Martin had alluded to Anna that

911
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:10.199
he had possibly killed some patience. Oh really yeah.

912
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.400
Gypsy fell deeply in love with Martin. The depth of

913
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:16.559
their bond even surprised her. They both felt that they

914
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:19.360
could be their true selves when they were together. She

915
00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.320
asked him to leave Michelle, but he refused, so she

916
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.320
continued to see other men. They spent as much time

917
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:29.119
together as they could, with Gypsy, sometimes even accompanying Martin

918
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:32.880
on his business trips. Meanwhile, back at the McNeil mansion,

919
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:37.000
Michelle became suspicious of her husband. Even when Martin was home.

920
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:41.920
He felt absent, distracted, disengaged, often home late, and constantly

921
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.159
texting someone, but he insisted it was all work related.

922
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:49.039
They went to marriage counseling, but nothing changed. At times,

923
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.119
Michelle found herself wondering why she was still fighting for

924
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:55.840
a marriage that already felt abandoned. While Martin continued to

925
00:49:55.880 --> 00:50:00.239
deny having an affair, Michelle grew depressed, withdrew from friends,

926
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.079
and gained weight.

927
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.000
When Martin turned fifty in February, he became obsessed with

928
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.480
his longevity and appearance. After he improved his diet, he

929
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:13.400
began exercising fanatically, quickly dropped thirty pounds and became a

930
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.519
regular at the Tanning salon. Some might have chalked it

931
00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:19.280
up to a midlife crisis, but to Michelle, it felt

932
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.599
like more evidence that he was having an affair. Soon after,

933
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.880
Martin insisted the family move out of their Orum mansion

934
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:29.679
into a large but significantly smaller home in Pleasant Grove.

935
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:33.039
Their new home was five thousand square feet with six

936
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:36.239
bedrooms and five and a half bathrooms. I mean I

937
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.599
think their old house was did I say eleven thousand?

938
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:42.360
So this is still a large home. The new neighbors

939
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:46.320
adored Michelle and the children, but found Martin brash and rude.

940
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:48.960
One neighbor said he just made sure to say that

941
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.360
he was downsizing into his home and that he was

942
00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:53.920
a doctor and a lawyer. You could tell that he

943
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:57.440
had a huge ego. In late two thousand and six,

944
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:01.199
Martin began experiencing severe pain and swelling in one of

945
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:04.840
his big toes, eventually requiring him to use a cane.

946
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:09.320
The cause remained unclear, and he ultimately underwent three separate surgeries.

947
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:12.480
Martin thought he was dying. He made sure his will

948
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.920
was up to date and purchased a two million dollar

949
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.039
life insurance policy. He began telling people that he had

950
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.480
terminal cancer, while telling others that he was suffering from

951
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:26.920
multiple sclerosis or peripheral neuropathy. For months, he traveled his specialists,

952
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.719
going as far as the Mayo Clinic. Often Gypsy was

953
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:33.920
traveling with him. The relationship intensified, and Gypsy stopped accepting

954
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.400
dates from other men. On February twenty first, two thousand

955
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:41.360
and seven, Michelle and Martin's twenty ninth wedding anniversary, Martin

956
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:45.679
and Gypsy traveled again to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona. Together.

957
00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:49.039
He stopped in Nevada to visit his daughter Alexis and

958
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:52.440
borrow her car, a convertible to make the trip more fun.

959
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:55.639
He dropped Gypsy off at a restaurant to wait for him.

960
00:51:56.119 --> 00:51:59.599
Michelle had confided in Alexis, sharing her fears that Martin

961
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:02.719
was having an affair. Alexis thought the whole idea of

962
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:06.679
her father borrowing her convertible was suspicious. While Martin was

963
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.199
still in her apartment, she snuck out and popped the

964
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:13.039
trunk of his car and saw multiple suitcases. Instantly knowing

965
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.880
that Martin wasn't traveling alone, she rifled through the suitcases

966
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:21.039
and found women's clothing, lingerie, and makeup. Alexis chose not

967
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.800
to say anything to her father, but called her mother

968
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:27.559
as soon as he left. Michelle was shattered, though not surprised,

969
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.440
and she called Martin on the road. He claimed that

970
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:32.679
he was transporting the luggage for a collie.

971
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:36.679
Well, that's one of the most ridiculous excuses I've ever heard.

972
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:39.000
Well, especially because he's going through the Mayopa.

973
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:39.760
Yeah, exactly.

974
00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:43.800
He returned to Alexis's apartment, furious with her for upsetting

975
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.800
her mother. To keep up appearances, he stayed the night

976
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:48.880
with her and picked Gipsy up in the morning from

977
00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:52.559
a friend's house, and they carried on to Arizona. After

978
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:57.199
extensive consultations with doctors, Martin was ultimately diagnosed with hereditary

979
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:03.440
neuropathy with liability to Pressure Paul's or HNPP. HNPP is

980
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:06.519
a rare genetic condition that affects the peripheral nerves, making

981
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:10.920
them unusually sensitive to pressure. Even minor compression like leaning

982
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:15.239
on an elbow or crossing the legs, can trigger temporary numbness, weakness,

983
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:18.920
or loss of sensation. While episodes can be uncomfortable and

984
00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:21.960
sometimes last for weeks or months, the condition is not

985
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.639
life threatening and does not typically affect a person's overall

986
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:30.000
life expectancy. It's managed with simple lifestyle adjustments like avoiding

987
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:34.800
prolonged pressure on certain areas, modifying repetitive movements, and using

988
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:38.760
protective padding when needed, but Martin continued to behave as

989
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:43.599
though his life was in danger despite receiving the benign diagnosis.

990
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:47.760
Alexis and Michelle joined forces, determined to prove that Martin

991
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:50.519
was gaslighting him and that he was in fact having

992
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:54.760
an affair. While Martin wasn't paying attention, Alexis secretly accessed

993
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:58.320
his T mobile account, had the passwords sent to his phone,

994
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:01.800
memorized it, and deleted them message so he wouldn't notice,

995
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.960
and then she downloaded a ring tone and casually handed

996
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.599
the phone back to him. Alexis was able to log

997
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:10.320
into Martin's T Mobile account and print a copy of

998
00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:14.400
his bill. One unfamiliar number appeared hundreds of times. When

999
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:17.519
Alexis called the number, a woman answered and she quickly

1000
00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:20.039
hung up. As she kept digging, she learned that the

1001
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:24.440
number belonged to Gypsy Jill Willis. Michelle confronted her husband

1002
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:27.280
with a new information, and he again denied that he

1003
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.199
was having an affair. Who's Gypsy? That sounds like a

1004
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:31.039
stripper's name.

1005
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:33.039
She's renting one of our properties.

1006
00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:35.559
If she's just a tenant, why are you calling her

1007
00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:37.119
at two or three in the morning.

1008
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:41.079
She works the graveyard shift. That's the only time she's available.

1009
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:43.079
Then she can wait. You need to stop calling her, Martin,

1010
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:46.079
I mean it. This needs to stop, Michelle.

1011
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:49.199
You're overreacting again. It's business, nothing more. You know, I'd

1012
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:52.159
never do anything to jeopardize our marriage or our family.

1013
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:56.480
The next day, Martin broached an awkward subject with his wife.

1014
00:54:56.760 --> 00:54:58.039
He said, brazen Lee.

1015
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:59.440
I think you need a facelift.

1016
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.440
Excuse me. Michelle had just turned fifty years old recently,

1017
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:06.280
and Bob, she looked good for her courage, She'd never

1018
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:07.880
considered going under the knife.

1019
00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:10.559
You'll feel better about yourself once you're healed up. We

1020
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:13.480
can go on a cruise and celebrate our thirtieth anniversary.

1021
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:18.440
After much hounding from Martin, Michelle begrudgingly agreed, likely fueled

1022
00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:22.280
by her husband's recent weight loss, intense fitness regimen, and

1023
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.639
the growing suspicion that he was having an affair. Despite

1024
00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:28.480
his connections in the medical field, Martin chose a doctor

1025
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:32.440
an hour away who he didn't know, doctor Scott Kent Thompson,

1026
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:35.639
who had opened his Utah practice just nine months prior.

1027
00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:39.000
After a consultation in mid March, Michelle decided to go

1028
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:43.280
ahead with a forehead lift. Mid facelift, lower facelift, and

1029
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:47.519
upper and lower eyelid surgery. But doctor Thompson had reservations

1030
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:51.199
about Michelle's blood pressure and insisted she see her primary

1031
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:55.079
care doctor to get cleared. Martin over rode doctor Thompson

1032
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:58.280
and brushed off the warnings and insisted she was fine

1033
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:01.360
and that she would be under his watchful eye. They

1034
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:05.480
scheduled the surgery for April third, and that is where

1035
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:09.119
we are going to end Part one. Michelle and Martin McNeil.

1036
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:10.119
I want to keep going.

1037
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:13.760
So what do you think about Michelle and Martin's marriage?

1038
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:17.039
I mean, obviously their marriage is in shambles and he's

1039
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:21.360
having all these affairs. It seems like Michelle knew about

1040
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:24.519
the affairs, but maybe was in denial. It just seems

1041
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:26.480
like with all these things, like these phone calls at

1042
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:29.840
three am, and the you know the fact that her

1043
00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:33.599
daughter found lingerie in these suitcases, she had to have known,

1044
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:34.599
right right.

1045
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:38.119
I think sometimes people know instinctively what they want to

1046
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.719
keep it. Don't want to believe that, Yeah, Michelle was

1047
00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:43.079
not going to leave her marriage. I don't believe she

1048
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:45.800
would have left her marriage, and she wanted to make

1049
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:48.559
it work. They were doing counseling, and you know, she

1050
00:56:48.679 --> 00:56:51.440
gave him some parameters that she wanted him to follow,

1051
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.440
but you know, Martin just lived life on Martin's terms.

1052
00:56:54.519 --> 00:56:57.320
Yeah, it seemed like both of them had this real

1053
00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:00.920
need to portray themselves. That's a perfect thing. It just

1054
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.920
seems like with everything they had, they didn't want anyone

1055
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:07.280
to see any cracks or that, you know, things weren't perfect.

1056
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.039
So this was a long time ago, but you worked

1057
00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.760
for a company in Utah and we had considered moving

1058
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.440
to Utah, so you could, you know, I don't know,

1059
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.000
get a better job or whatever the situation was. And

1060
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.000
it's a lovely place, Yeah, beautiful. I remember thinking when

1061
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:26.760
we were there that all that everyone looked really put together,

1062
00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:30.519
and there would be these big families, but you know, everyone,

1063
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:34.119
the moms and the kids, they all looked really put together. Yeah,

1064
00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:37.440
And that was a little intimidating to me because I.

1065
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.800
Mean, yeah, I think there is a high value put

1066
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:43.559
on like everyone, you know, dressing nicely and neatly and

1067
00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:44.760
just appearing.

1068
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:46.239
Very presenting yourself a certain way.

1069
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:47.679
Yeah, I definitely think that's true.

1070
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:51.320
A heartbreaking aspect to this case is how Michelle and

1071
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:55.960
Martin how three of their children suffered from substance abuse,

1072
00:57:56.039 --> 00:57:59.239
and then two of them had bipolar disorder, and I

1073
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:01.480
think that they must inherited that from Martin.

1074
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:03.760
Yeah, I was going to ask you how how much

1075
00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:07.760
you felt the children's struggles with mental illness were inherited

1076
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:10.320
versus the environment that they were brought up in, if

1077
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:11.760
that may have had something to do with it. I

1078
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:14.000
know it's hard to say that, but well, I should.

1079
00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:17.280
Backtrack and for like plenty of people who have bipolar disorder,

1080
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:20.519
it can be controlled and they can leave full, full

1081
00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:23.039
and happy lives. Right in this case, though, I know

1082
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:26.079
that these kids did struggle, and in part two we'll

1083
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:27.639
reveal a little bit more about that.

1084
00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:30.599
Yeah, it is really It is so sad though, when

1085
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:33.239
you know so many members of a family well and

1086
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:35.360
struggle with things like that. Yeah.

1087
00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:38.400
Yeah, just a generational trauma. I guess that you know

1088
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:41.639
fits this picture too. Yeah, but Michelle was definitely like

1089
00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:44.599
a loving, caring mother. Yeah, it sounds like she did

1090
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:46.599
the best that you know she could for her kids.

1091
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:51.639
And bipolar disorder is largely inherited, but not not always,

1092
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.840
and there are some environmental factors that can't impact it.

1093
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:59.360
Like people you might have the genetic predisposition for it.

1094
00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:01.800
But develop it or vice versa.

1095
00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:05.719
Yeah, obviously I am not a psychologist, so please forgive

1096
00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:08.760
me if I got anything wrong there. What do you

1097
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:12.800
make of Michelle and Martin adopting the children from Ukraine?

1098
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.000
Well, it sounds like with their other kids mostly out

1099
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.159
of the house, that maybe Michelle was looking for something

1100
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:22.559
to fill her life with and maybe Martin was looking

1101
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.360
for something to distract Michelle so that he could go

1102
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:27.039
off and have his affairs.

1103
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:29.559
I think you're right, and they did have Ada.

1104
00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:31.639
Ada was She was pretty young, right.

1105
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:33.679
She was only six years old, so I think they

1106
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:35.920
did want, you know, aid a it grow up with

1107
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.920
other seilings.

1108
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.280
That makes sense too. I do wonder if they knew

1109
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:42.679
what they were getting into adopting kids that were older

1110
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.760
twelve than ten years old, who had had rough upbringings

1111
00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:49.760
up until that point. So that must have been very difficult.

1112
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.239
But I wonder if they thought that, you know, that

1113
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:53.880
it wouldn't be as tough as it was.

1114
00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.440
Yeah, adoption is it's really hard. It's such a wonderful

1115
00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:00.199
thing to do, but it's really hard to bond the

1116
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:04.239
older children. Yeah, when they haven't formed meaningful relationships with

1117
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.039
other people. And I think that Sabrina and Elle, they

1118
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:11.400
both really thrived in the environment. But I'm going to

1119
01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:15.559
forget their names. Giselle and Noel did not. Yeah, what

1120
01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:18.159
do you think of Martin and his dark passenger?

1121
01:00:18.599 --> 01:00:21.360
That's really it's chilling. I wasn't expecting that, to be

1122
01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:24.440
honest with you. I thought, Okay, the guy's got problems obviously,

1123
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:26.639
and there's going to be a question about what happened

1124
01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:29.519
to Michelle. But yeah, I wasn't expecting him to come

1125
01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:32.559
forward with admitting that he tried to kill his mom

1126
01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:34.960
and that he killed his brother. I mean, like you said,

1127
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:37.599
may or may not be true, but still very that's

1128
01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:38.840
very dark and very chilling.

1129
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:40.800
Do you want me to get plastic surgery? Have you

1130
01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:44.239
scheduled anything for me? No? Absolutely crazy though, to tell

1131
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:47.119
your wife, Oh, I think you have plastic surgery, honey.

1132
01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:48.400
I know I would never do that. I mean, if

1133
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:51.199
you wanted to do it on your own, then that's fine,

1134
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:53.880
but I would never pressure you or Yeah, that's just

1135
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:55.079
not cool.

1136
01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.320
Michelle was a beautiful woman too. She looked amazing, and I'm.

1137
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:03.239
Sure she just felt this pressure because you know, he had.

1138
01:01:03.400 --> 01:01:05.440
When she was pretty adamant in the beginning, like, no,

1139
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:09.039
I'm good, her daughter said. Her daughters were like you, mom,

1140
01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:12.239
you're you're beautiful. You don't need anything done. Yeah, but

1141
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.239
he just kept kind of needling her, And yeah, she

1142
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:18.199
was a little insecure. I think about him heavy.

1143
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:19.960
He wanted it to work, and it sounds like she

1144
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:22.840
was willing to do whatever she thought she needed to

1145
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:24.039
do to make things work.

1146
01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:32.679
Yeah, she really was. Well, please come back for part two. Okay,

1147
01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:36.039
we just broke for dinner and you called me a psychopath.

1148
01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:37.760
If you want to tell everyone why.

1149
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:41.920
For suggesting I put crumbled up potato chips on a

1150
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:43.639
hot dog, So to.

1151
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:45.800
Me, when I'm eating a sandwich, not as much a

1152
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:48.559
hot dog as a hot dog a sandwich. That's for

1153
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:51.480
another day. But if I'm eating a sandwich, I love

1154
01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:54.039
to put potato chips inside my sandwich.

1155
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:55.159
Psychopathic behavior.

1156
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:57.800
I do not think it's a psychopath. I think it's

1157
01:01:57.800 --> 01:01:59.679
odd if you don't want a little texture in your

1158
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:02.480
sandwi which so we need you guys to weigh in.

1159
01:02:02.679 --> 01:02:05.199
Yeah, it probably should not be diagnosing you with a

1160
01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:06.639
psychopathy based on that.

1161
01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:10.800
But I am trying really hard not to diagnose because

1162
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.400
people have clat back at me, which I totally understand.

1163
01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:17.559
I did major in psychology, but I'm not a psychologist,

1164
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:20.760
so we shouldn't be diagnosing people or labeling people unless

1165
01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:22.079
an expert has already done.

1166
01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:24.760
But the potato chip thing is pretty clear, so I think.

1167
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:26.920
In that case we care at all. I think you're

1168
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:28.960
missing out. Have you tried it?

1169
01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:29.840
I've tried it. Sure.

1170
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:32.880
I think I got that from Ali Sheety in the

1171
01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:36.079
Breakfast calor. Oh do you remember that scene?

1172
01:02:36.199 --> 01:02:36.360
No?

1173
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.159
I don't, but they do call her the basket case.

1174
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:41.679
But I think she was a genius she was. Yes, Well,

1175
01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:44.440
you just contradicted yourself. You said that you agreed that

1176
01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:45.519
Ali she could be.

1177
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:48.159
A genius and a psychopath at the same time, can't you.

1178
01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:51.639
So you're saying putting potato chips on your sandwich is genius,

1179
01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:54.840
or you're just saying Sheety is a genius.

1180
01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:57.559
I'm saying her genius had nothing to do with her

1181
01:02:58.039 --> 01:03:01.199
being a basket case and putting chip on her sandwich.

1182
01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:04.440
Okay, So our cats, I think just one of them

1183
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:07.400
just demanded that they be allowed to come into the room.

1184
01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:11.119
But they've been obsessed with me lately, I know.

1185
01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:12.800
I do think they have like a little bit of

1186
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:14.280
an unhealthy obsession with you.

1187
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:16.960
Yeah, and it's kind of you know, it's kind of sweet.

1188
01:03:18.079 --> 01:03:21.280
Maybe they feel like I'm having empty nests undrome, but yeah,

1189
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:24.639
I mean mostly I'm okay, but when it impacts my

1190
01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:27.320
sleep is when it really bums me out. The other night,

1191
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.039
I was having allergies kind of bad, and we have

1192
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:31.719
a lot of beds in her house now that no

1193
01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:34.159
one is sleeping, and so I just went and slept

1194
01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:38.159
in Emma's room and the cats. So what happens is Clover,

1195
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:41.880
the girl cat, she gets mad when Cosmo, the boy cat,

1196
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:44.920
comes into the room, so she guards me like no

1197
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:47.679
boys allowed. She's like no boys allowed. So she's like

1198
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:50.079
mewing and they're fighting and I'm trying to sleep, and

1199
01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:53.039
so it was just really, you have witnessed this, oh yeah,

1200
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.840
And so it's it can go on for hours sometimes

1201
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:58.719
and you can't lock them out of the room. So

1202
01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:00.679
what I ended up doing is I haended up playing

1203
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.239
like cat sounds for them, like cat relaxing music, and

1204
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:06.400
it did seem to chill her out.

1205
01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:07.679
All that's good.

1206
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:10.159
That's on Spotify if you want to. There's a plenty

1207
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:11.119
of them there's a lot of them.

1208
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:13.559
So sometimes I feel jealous that the cats love you

1209
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:16.159
more than they love me. But then when I see

1210
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.000
how they keep you awake at night and how they

1211
01:04:18.079 --> 01:04:22.480
torment you, I feel a little better about it after that.

1212
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:24.199
But speaking of cats, Yeah.

1213
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:25.960
Can I talk a little bit about cat euthanasia.

1214
01:04:26.639 --> 01:04:29.719
I mean, if you want to go there again, you

1215
01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:30.480
got some heat.

1216
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:32.440
So a couple of weeks ago, we did did an

1217
01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:36.440
episode and wanted the Wendy. The person in the episode

1218
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:37.440
was a veterinarian.

1219
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:39.599
So you realize you're not gonna you're not gonna win

1220
01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:40.239
this argument.

1221
01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:43.920
Well let me just let me just explain. So there

1222
01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:47.079
was a part of the episode where there were some

1223
01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:50.719
cats brought into the clinic that had ringworm, and the

1224
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:54.239
lead veterinarian told her to euthanize the cats, and she

1225
01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:57.119
didn't do it. And in the episode, I talked about

1226
01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:00.000
how ringworm is very contagious and it can spread around

1227
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.880
the clinic and it can spread the humans as well.

1228
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:05.719
I got a lot of flack about that, people saying, oh,

1229
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:06.639
go ahead, Well.

1230
01:05:06.519 --> 01:05:09.159
When you said that in the episode, I thought that

1231
01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:11.519
you implied. And I don't know a lot about ringworm

1232
01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:13.960
other than it's very unpleasant. I thought you implied that

1233
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:18.039
it was some sort of like very detrimental ringworm. It

1234
01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:19.440
was like a deadly ring worm.

1235
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:22.400
No, I think it was just ringworm. But a lot

1236
01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:25.239
of people gave me flack and said, ringworm is very treatable.

1237
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:27.559
You don't need to euthanize a cat to do that,

1238
01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.639
and it's irresponsible to spread misinformation that cats need to

1239
01:05:31.639 --> 01:05:33.639
be euthanized. And I just want to say a couple

1240
01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:36.920
of things in my defense. One, I wasn't advocating for

1241
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:38.760
the cats to be euthanized. I was just telling in

1242
01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:41.639
the story that that was what the veterinarian said had

1243
01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:42.000
to happen.

1244
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:45.280
In their listeners defense, I think they were just saying

1245
01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:47.440
that you should have done a little more due diligence

1246
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:48.079
on your part.

1247
01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:49.320
Well, but I did.

1248
01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:49.519
So.

1249
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:52.360
This one thing is this case took place like twenty

1250
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.800
five years ago, and I did look this up, and

1251
01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:59.920
veterinarians and shelters historically have euthanized cats with ringworm. That

1252
01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:03.679
was sort of just the direction. More recently, the approach

1253
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:07.280
has shifted toward treatment rather than euthanasia, So just keep

1254
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:09.639
in mind the timeframe. And I will also say I

1255
01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:15.199
have never personally euthanized a cat, and I never will.

1256
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:17.719
Send your cards letter than comments too rich love Mary

1257
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:18.320
kil talk.

1258
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:22.519
I don't mean to get defensive, but I felt like

1259
01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:25.480
people were accusing me of like being a cat euthanizer.

1260
01:06:25.639 --> 01:06:27.719
Okay, I'm not sure if you just helped yourself with

1261
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:28.519
that explains.

1262
01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:30.719
I love cats.

1263
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:34.239
I love our cats very much, and yeah, we would

1264
01:06:34.280 --> 01:06:37.280
not put our cats down for ringworm. In today's episode,

1265
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:41.000
we were talking about Mormons, and last weekend we binged

1266
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:45.320
a show on Netflix called Trust Me the False Prophet.

1267
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:48.960
It was four episodes and I thought it was so

1268
01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:49.719
well done.

1269
01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:52.320
It was really so it's really interesting.

1270
01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:54.119
Oh, I highly recommend it.

1271
01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:56.559
We should go ahead, I should say, we should say

1272
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:00.320
that the show was about the FLDS, the Fundamental List,

1273
01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:04.719
which the mainstream Mormon church totally disowns them and wants

1274
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:07.440
nothing to do with them. But it was it was fascinating.

1275
01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:11.119
Yeah, and the woman who the documentary centered around, oh

1276
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:14.519
my gosh, just sound like a hero, incredible woman. I

1277
01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:16.239
just loved for so much. I'd like to learn more

1278
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:18.840
about her. But if you guys haven't watched that, I

1279
01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:21.800
highly recommend that. I wanted to watch all four parts

1280
01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:24.280
in one sitting. It's been a long time, I think,

1281
01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:26.760
since I've watched something that was so compelling for me

1282
01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:28.400
in true crime genre.

1283
01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:29.159
It really was.

1284
01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:30.960
Yeah, I'm curious what you guys are doing with your

1285
01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:35.480
Netflix subscriptions because it's gotten so expensive, and I'm thinking

1286
01:07:35.519 --> 01:07:38.920
that maybe we need to like have Netflix for a

1287
01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:41.159
couple of months and then you know, rot rotate, and

1288
01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.039
then do Apple or whatever, because we're not watching all

1289
01:07:44.079 --> 01:07:44.639
of them at once.

1290
01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:46.199
No, I know it kind of it feels like some

1291
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:48.280
of them you're just paying for and you don't watch.

1292
01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:51.320
It's such an indulgence to have as many streaming services

1293
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:53.280
as we do. But with the podcast, we are watching

1294
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:54.320
a lot of stuff all the time.

1295
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:56.360
But it's really challenging the way things are now to

1296
01:07:56.599 --> 01:07:58.880
like you have to you just have to pay for

1297
01:07:59.159 --> 01:08:01.239
a bunch of subscriptions things, even.

1298
01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:05.239
To watch sports, which is super frustrating. But again it's

1299
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:07.440
called trust me the False Prophet and let us know

1300
01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:09.800
if you guys watch it, let us know what you think. Well,

1301
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.280
thank you so much for listening and hanging out with us.

1302
01:08:12.360 --> 01:08:14.159
If you want to listen to part two of this

1303
01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:18.960
episode right now, go to Patreon dot com, slash Love

1304
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:21.880
Marykill and join us for five dollars a month. You

1305
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:25.640
get early ad free access and a monthly BTUs episode,

1306
01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.640
and when we do multiparts you can get them all

1307
01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:29.319
at one time.

1308
01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:33.199
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social

1309
01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:36.600
media or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail

1310
01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:37.840
dot com.

1311
01:08:37.399 --> 01:08:39.760
And you can find us on YouTube. We're really trying

1312
01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:43.680
to get to one thousand people who are subscribing.

1313
01:08:43.199 --> 01:08:44.159
And we're getting there.

1314
01:08:44.199 --> 01:08:46.920
It's growing slowly but surely, so thank you to everyone

1315
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:49.199
who has already done that, but please do if you

1316
01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:51.079
haven't already until next time.

1317
01:08:51.239 --> 01:09:06.600
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. In

1318
01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:06.720
the

1319
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:26.600
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