Michele and Martin MacNeill - Part 2

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. There's one thing that we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina. How are you? I am doing good? How are you? I'm great? I feel like we've lived a whole life since we recorded part one. Can't you remember anything about part one? No? I was going to say, I really have no part what it was like a week ago. Can expect me to remember something that took place a week ago?

0:45 Luckily for you, I wrote a recap that we'll read in a couple of minutes. But we just got back into town. We went to Marquette to see our son, who is breaking his mother's heart by not coming home this summer. But that's okay. Hey, do you want to tell everyone about the attempt that you took on my life? I don't remember that I remember what you did. No, you're gonna have to refresh my memory. I think the other night when we were in the Airbnb, I had a headache and I didn't have anything with me, and I said, hey, do you have anything for a headache, and you said yeah, and you gave me a couple of pills unidentified, and then I swallowed them. And then I said, what were those? Oh what do you remember? I think they were Motrin or I you.

1:26 Provided many many years ago. Okay, yeah, yes, I don't think that will kill you though. I think that will just maybe not work as well as it should. But yeah, they expired in twenty twenty three, I believe, I live to tell. I carry them around in my laptop. I guess you're going to have to try a little harder next time, I guess. On our last episode, we read some reviews from our listeners that really touched our hearts, that were very kind. But I like for us to stay humble and keep it real, so I wanted to read a couple of maybe the more nitty gritty comments that we can it. This is from Rachel. It was a Spotify comment, by far, the most boring monotone hosts on a podcast I've ever heard. Wow, I'm thinking we're not that boring.

2:11 I think this person must not listen to a lot of podcasts. But well, she left it on the Just the Facts episode. So it's always tricky for us because some people are like, I hate banter, but some people like a little more bantering, right, so we get both comments on either end. Do you have a couple of comments to read? I found one. This is maybe the rudest comment I've ever heard in my life, is from Jules. It says, go chiefs. I mean, that is just incredibly Oh. I have no problem with that comment personally. I'm just kidding. Okay, Well, most of the critical comments we've gotten lately are either about our pronunciations or about euthanizing cats, which I think we addressed in the last episode.

2:52 But here's one. I'm starting the show from the earliest episodes, so I don't know if this changes as time goes on. But Tina interjects so much, oh my god, every other sentence she asked for clarification or shares an anecdote. Rich has the patience of a saint. He really does. Well, we have come a long way, yeah, and I don't think our podcast has. Would people say they're starting from the beginning, I'm always. Like, oh no, a little bit too. Yeah, but it's okay. We've grown and we've learned, and it's okay. If you don't love everything that we do, but we are trying our best. Remember, on our way home, we were driving by the Costco and I said, I know you don't want to, but we don't have any food at home, so we should probably stop. I do remember, but you refuse to go in the store. So I took one for the team, and I grabbed a couple of snacks that you didn't see because you were in the car. I appreciate it, and I think you're gonna like these. I got a variety pack of Tony's Chalk, a lonely old GM chocolate. I didn't know that this was not made in the United States. But there are milk, little mini Tony's milk, chocolate, milk, chocolate, caramel, sea salt, and chocolate caramel toffee.

4:06 Hmmm, that sounds good. I don't think you're going to like these as much, but dark chocolate pistachio caramel. Clusters still sounds pretty good. Okay, you're not a big nut guy. No, but I am a big chocolate and caramel guy. Okay, which Tony's do you want to try? You can't have all three. Something with caramel in it? Okay, so what did you think? I read chocolate snacks today really good. I love the Tony's chocolate only, although it didn't see I didn't sense a lot of caramel in it, which was kind of weird because it's chocolate with sea salt caramel. But it was very good. The pistachio on your right, I didn't like it as much. A little bit too much pistachio for me, but it was still good. I like everything else about it.

4:47 I actually preferred the pistachio caramel clusters. The brand is Copper Kettle Candy Company. I love them. I would give them a ten out of ten. They come in like a pistachio green package, so if you're at Costco, I highly recommend them. And the Tony's was really good. I had the milk chocolate pretzel toffee. Well this works out well. You can stick with the pistachios and I'll stick with the. Tony from you and I will dole them out if you're a good boy and you do good things. Okay, okay, what would you rate the snacks? I'd give the Tonys a nine out of ten and the pistachio Caramel's seven out of ten. Seven out of ten. I would give the pistachio Kramels ten out of ten. You already rated the. Eleven out of ten, and I would give the Tonys.

5:30 I don't know. I felt like it wasn't as good as the big bars. Maybe that's just in my imagination, but I had that after the pistachio, so I would give that probably an eight and a half out of ten. Eight and a half. Okay, Well, thank you for coming back to part two of Michelle and Martin McNeil. Do you want to give us a recap? Sure? On April eleventh, two thousand and seven, Michelle McNeil, fifty, was found unresponsive in her bathtub, just days after undergoing a facelift. Her husband had strongly encouraged Martin. A doctor called it a tragic accident, but from the start the scene raised questions. Michelle was a devoted mother of eight, deeply rooted in her Mormon faith. Together, she and Martin had built a life that appeared successful and admired, but behind closed doors, it was beginning to crack. Martin's behavior had grown increasingly erratic and controlling. He had a long history of manipulation and deception, engaged in multiple affairs, and maintained a carefully constructed double life. As Michelle grew suspicious of him, he denied everything, often twisting reality to make her doubt what she knew to be true. In two thousand and five, he began an intense relationship with Gipsy Willis, a woman two decades younger. With the help of her daughter Alexis, Michelle uncovered the affair, only to be met with more denial. Around the same time, Martin claimed he was seriously ill, telling different people he had cancer, multiple sclerosis, or other conditions. In reality, he was diagnosed with HMPP,

7:01 a non life threatening disorder, but he continued to act as though he were dying, rewriting his will and putting assets in Michelle's name, but no one realized what he was actually preparing for. Do you want to add anything to that? No, that was actually a really good reminder for me. But I think when Michelle discovered that he was talking to this gypsy Willis, I remember, like she looked at his phone records and there were calls at like two am and really late at night, and he was just completely gaslighting her right that. I can't remember what he told it. This was a tenant that was running one of their properties. She works nights. Yeah, so that's why she was calling. Alexis McNeil, a third year medical student, was not happy about her mother having such an extensive surgery that she deemed unnecessary and unsafe with her high blood pressure, Michelle was still beautiful and shouldn't feel the need to compete with Martin's younger mistress, Anne. Michelle was hesitant to go under the knife. Martin assured her that everything would be okay and that he'd personally see to her recovery. The surgery was scheduled for April third, Prior to her facelift, Michelle decided it would be a good idea to get a physical. Martin accompanied her and began answering for her, saying that she was healthy with no underlying conditions. The doctor became annoyed and asked Bartin to leave the room while he finished the examination. Went alone with the doctor.

8:24 Michelle admitted that she had occasional heart palpitations and her blood pressure tended to be a little high. She also told the doctor that her mood had been low recently and she felt depressed. When he checked her blood pressure, it was one sixty over one ten or hypertension stage two one eighty over one twenty is considered a hypertensive crisis. So it was really high. He prescribed medication for her blood pressure, zola for her depression, and urged her to delay the surgery until her blood pressure was under control. After they left the office, Martin told Michelle that she would be fine and she should go ahead with the scheduled surgery. Michelle felt strongly about listening to her doctor, though she also wanted to lose a few pounds before the procedure, but Martin grew angry and snapped, you're having it now. I'm too busy, and Alexis is here to take care of you. If you don't have the surgery now, you're not getting it. Martin snarled, I already paid for the anesthesiologist and the operating suite.

9:26 Alexis had come home for spring break to help care for Michelle post surgery and was shocked at the way Martin was acting. Michelle decided to move forward with the procedure. Two days prior to the surgery, the three mcneils went to doctor Thompson's office for a pre opt consultation. The doctor went over the medications he was prescribing seven ambient thirty vikadand for pain is needed, medrol to reduce swelling, an antibiotic cephlexen, and erythromyasin drops for Michelle's eyes to promote faster healing. Martin intervened. He told the doctor that Michelle had a low tolerance for pain and requested stronger medications, her casette rather than vicotin, along with lori tab elixir, a combination of hydrocodone and acidamnifin, and valuum to ease her pre surgery anxiety. Doctor Thompson capitulated to Martin and agreed to prescribe the extra medication. He was uncomfortable, but Martin promised that he'd personally oversee Michelle's recovery. The doctor cautioned, this is more medication than I usually prescribe. Be very careful and only take what you need.

10:33 Couldn't Martin have prescribed medication to her if he wanted to. I know that wouldn't be necessarily ethical to do that. Well, I mean, I think you know where the story is going. If he would have prescribed, it would have for him. But I think that they would probably catch that at the pharmacy. If you know, third last names match. Right. The day before the surgery, Martin gathered his wife and children and told them that in case of his death, Alexis would be executor of his and went over his will and detail. Michelle was taken aback. Why wouldn't he choose her? He then handed out checks for five thousand dollars to each of his older children. They gratefully accepted the gift, but were confused. This was not like Martin at all. Early on Tuesday, April third, Martin and Alexis accompanied Michelle to the hospital. Martin gave her a kiss and said he'd see her later he was headed to work.

11:24 The surgery took seven hours, and Michelle fared very well, though her face was heavily bandaged and her eyesight temporarily gone. In her book about this case, Shanna Hogan goes into great detail, like excruciating detail, and it sounds horrible, and I really don't want a facelift. Seven hours. See, I don't know anything about facelifts, but seven hours seems like a really long time. I wouldn't expect it to be that extensive. Pretty rigorous surgery, and she was having her whole faced on. Wow. The procedure was planned as outpatient, but Michelle wanted to stay overnight. When Martin arrived to take her home, he insisted could she be discharged, but doctor Thompson agreed that she should remain at the hospital. Martin grumpily relented. Alexis stayed by her mother's side, sleeping in an uncomfortable hospital recliner, while Martin went home. When Michelle was released the next morning, Alexis stayed home with her, taking careful note of every medication she administered, Michelle's vital signs and what she was eating, logging it all in a small notebook she kept meticulously. Later, she said, I really wanted to do a good job helping her. She was my mom, So I was taking her vidal's blood pressure pulls, rubbing her legs, things like that.

12:35 Alexis was taking really great care of her mom, and she took this job very seriously. When Martin returned home from work, he insisted Alexis take a break and leave him in charge. The next morning, Alexis woke up and checked on Michelle. She couldn't rouse her. She asked Martin how much medication he'd given her overnight. Well, I don't know, but she wasn't a lot of pain. Maybe I gave her too much. When he listed the medication he'd administered, Alexis accused him of overdosing Michelle and announced that she was taking over her care. Michelle was out of it most of the day, but finally, when she was lucid that evening, she told her daughter, he kept handing me things, even after I started to throw up. He kept giving me stuff, making me swallow it. And remember, Michelle still couldn't see. She was in pain, disoriented and emotionally raw, completely completely vulnerable. Through tears, she reached for Alexis and whispered, Alexis, if anything happens to me, promise me you'll make sure they look at your father.

13:34 I can't imagine how scary that must have been for Michelle. And we hear it so often where people say, you know, if anything happens to me, look at. So and so, and it's just I can't imagine saying that tar kids either. It would be so sad if I said something happens to me. As your father, yeah, definitely. Michelle actually went over the pills with Alexis. She said, Okay, hand me a percocet. Let me see how that feels, and she wanted to make sure that she wasn't being overdosed. Yeah. Two days after the facelift surgery, doctor Thompson removed the stitches from Michelle's eyes and she could see again. The doctor said she was healing well with her vision back. The first thing she did when she got home was to try to log into Martin's T mobile account to check his cell phone activity, but she wasn't able to log in Martin had changed the password. She tore into him and accused him of cheating again, which she denied.

14:28 A week after surgery, Michelle's doctor was pleased with her progress. She was feeling better and happy with what she saw in the mirror. Her pain was under control. She was down to just one percoset a day. With her mother improving, Alexis decided it was time to return to Nevada. Martin asked the doctor if Michelle could leave on a two week cruise just five days later, saying she needed time to recover in peace away from the children, but no such crews had ever been planned. I'm surprised how quick Michelle is healing like It's a week after the surg and seems like she's you know, up and around, yeah, and doing her thing. Yeah. That seems like pretty major surgery that you would want to recuperate for a longer time. On April eleventh, two thousand and seven, Martin was at his office by six am, but he returned home at about eight to drive Giselle, El, Sabrina, and Ada to school, honking the horn impatiently from the driveway, not even getting out of the car. The girls had seen their mother that morning and said she seemed to be doing well and was in good spirits. Sabrina later recalled she was normal. There was nothing odd about her behavior at all. She was tired because she had just woken up, but we had a perfectly normal conversation. Just before nine am, Alexis called to check on Michelle and was relieved to hear she was doing well and that her father seemed to be taking good care of her. Michelle said Martin had been exceptionally sweet. She planned to get back into her routine that day, taking Ada to launch at McDonald's and driving

15:58 the girls to ballet. Meanwhile, Martin dropped off the older girls, then Ada at eight twenty am. Between eight thirty and nine eleven, there's a gap, no phone activity, no clear record of where he was. By nine eleven, his phone places him back at his desk. He had been gone about ninety minutes, despite living just three miles away, a drive that should have taken no more than ten. At nine seventeen am, he called Michelle and left the following message, Michelle, don't you dare. Don't you dare go anywhere. Take it easy, please, I'm very concerned. You should just stay where you're at. I'm coming home. I'm going to make you a sandwich and we'll have a lovely lunch together. But just don't call anybody and don't go anywhere. Alexis was in class when her father left her a message, Alexis, you need to call your mom. You need to call her right away.

16:50 She's not listening to me. She's doing too much. She's getting up, she's out of bed. You need to call her and tell her she needs to rest. Alexis was confused because she thought her mom was doing well and didn't need to be in bed all day. She called Michelle several times throughout the day, but there was no answer. With each passing hour, Alexis felt a growing sense of dread. Martin picked Ada up from kindergarten at eleven thirty five am, five minutes late, and drove her home. Ada ran into the house, calling for Michelle, excited for their trip to McDonald's. When she didn't answer, Ada went looking for her and found her in the jacuzzie tub, the water dark and murky.

17:30 Her head slumped beneath the faucet, her eyes wide open. Six year old Ada screamed for her father, come quick, something's wrong with mommy. When Martin reached the bathroom, he stopped short. The shell lay motionless in the tub, the water dark around her, her eyes still open. For a moment, he just stood there, surveying the situation. Then he turned to Ada and told her to run next door for help. He dialed nine one one as he drained the tub, his voice rising, his words tumbling over over each other. The call was chaotic. He hung up before giving the dispatcher the information she needed. Because he was calling from a cell phone, his location wasn't immediately clear, and the confusion cost precious time, nearly twelve minutes before an ambulance arrived. Later, the dispatcher would say Martin had been screaming at her.

18:20 His behavior unlike anything she had ever encountered. He was so belligerent and challenging on the call, it was saved to be used for training purposes. When Martin was talking to the nine one one operator, she was saying, are you doing CPR? And he said yes, hmmm, and well learned that he probably wasn't doing CPR. Okay. After failing to reach Michelle all morning, Alexis called Martin. He told her that her mother had slipped in the bathtub and was unconscious, that paramedics were performing CPR on her. Alexis rushed to the airport to catch the first flight back to Utah, tears flowing freely as she drove recklessly. She felt like someone had punched her in the gut.

19:01 She was sure that her father had killed her mother. Alone in her car, she screamed, he killed her, He killed her, I'm sure. The first thing that came back into her mind was her mom telling her, if anything happens to me, make sure they look at your dad. And she had been there again, she's a medical student, and she thought, Mom's doing great. I'm so impressed with her recovery. Yeah, she had talked to her that morning, so from going to yeah, mom's fine, she said she wants to go to McDonald's later. So this was a huge shock. Yeah, we'll be back after a break. Pleasant Grove. Detective Mark Wright, a twelve year veteran of the forest, was a signed to the case. When he arrived at three zero five eight Mill Creek Road, the investigation was off to a rocky start. Little evidence was collected, the bathwater had been drained, and few crime scene photos had been taken. Before Michelle was pulled from the tub and resuscitation efforts had commenced. Detective Right found Michelle's discarded clothing, a shirt, a bra, and Mormon undergarments that were wet and stained with blood. In the bedroom. There were several small spots of blood in the bathtub and on the tile floor. Martin was hysterical and getting in the way of the paramedics. He was asked to wait outside, he wrote with the shell in the ambulance. His officers began clearing the scene. Before leaving. Detective Right asked the McNeil's neighbor, Doug Daniels, to lock up the house, wanting to spare

20:33 the children from returning to the chaotic scene, Doug decided to clean up. He wiped down the primary bathroom, scrubbed the blood stains from the carpet where CPR had been performed on Michelle, and gathered the used towels, throwing them in the washing machine. What the how crazy is this scene? Right? Incredibly, the detective says to a neighbor, Hey, lock up the house. I know, I'm just baffled by this. Why would they not secure the scene? That's just insane? Right? And he I mean it sounds like he was almost like in and out right because as soon as the resuscitation efforts they had taken Michelle to the hospital, sounds like he was on his way. Wow. Martin's first message didn't go to Michelle's family. It went to Gypsy. She's gone, he texted. Gypsy was confused. Michelle had been improving, what caused this major setback? And she wasn't the only one who couldn't make sense of it.

21:25 Michelle's mother and siblings hadn't been called. They would learn of her death from someone who saw it on Facebook. Shock gave way to confusion, then anger. Back at the McNeil house, the older children began to gather trying to understand what had happened. Michelle had been the heart of the family. They were all heartbroken and would remain so for years. Martin asked Damien and his girlfriend to count the remaining pills from Michelle's prescriptions, and then ordered them to flush them down the toilet. He said the sight of them made him sick. He missed her so much. Wow, this whole thing is just blowing my mind. And I can't imagine the family finding out on Facebook about their daughter and siblings' staff. That's just well.

22:09 If you remember right, Martin had tried to keep Michelle from her family as much as possible. So wow. I think everyone knows this, but I feel obligated to say never flush medications down the toilet. It sends them into the water system where treatment plants can't fully remove them, and it allows trace amounts to enter rivers and lakes, disrupt wildlife, and potentially make their way back into drinking water. You can throw old prescriptions in the garbage, but it's best to turn them into a pharmacy or police station. And not to mention that you're destroying evidence to in this case. Yeah, that is true. Alexis came later that night with a growing sense that something was wildly wrong with the whole situation. She came into the house in a fury, demanding answers. She went straight to the bathroom and asked her father to show her exactly how he'd found Michelle.

22:58 When Martin demonstrated position himself over the tub, describing how Michelle had been draped over the edge with her head submerged, Alexis stared at him, stunned it didn't make sense. She pushed past him and demanded to see Michelle's prescription bottles. Martin was quick with the lie the police had taken them during their investigation. She went out to the garage and found it all piled together, Michelle's wet, bloodstained clothes, damp towels, the rented hospital bed, even getwell cards and gifts discarded as if none of it mattered. Martin told his daughter Rachel to get rid of all of Michelle's things, but she couldn't bear to do it. She washed her mother's clothes and took them back to her apartment, stashing them in a dark corner of her closet. The children were consumed with grief, especially Alexis. She wore Michelle's clothing and perfume to feel closer to her. She wrote in her mother's obituary, I am lost without you. You are my hero, my strength, and my best friend. I will cry for you forever. You are my heart and my life.

23:58 I will do my best to survive, but right now I cannot breathe. I will try to make you proud. I am broken now, but I will try to be brave like you. I will love you forever. Rachel made a website honoring her mother, with pictures and videos that would be a comfort to those who loved her. Vanessa, the second McNeil daughter, who had struggled with substance abuse, wrote to her mother, I have given up so many times, and you never never gave up on me. As Aida wiped away her tears, she vowed to try to be the best mother to Ada that Michelle was to her. Her commitment to sobriety would be tested again and again in the years that followed. I don't know if you remember this from part one, but Aida is actually the daughter of Vanessa and Martin, and Michelle adopted her. An autopsy was performed the day after Michelle's death. Other than her face that was still healing from her recent surgery.

24:49 There were no unusual markings or bruises on her body indicative of defensive wounds. Her brain and other organs appeared healthy. Her heart was slightly enlarged, suggesting early heart disease, and there was evidence of ethereosclerosis, including hardening of the aorta and other arteries. The lungs of a drowning victim are typically heavier than normal. Michelle's right long waged six hundred ninety grams and her left six hundred seventy, well above the usual range of three to four hundred grams. However, the frothy liquid often found in drowning victims airways was absent. In the absence of obvious cause of death, the pathologists concluded that Michelle likely died from a cardiac arrhythmia, pending the results of the toxicology report weeks later. Toxicology revealed four drugs in Michelle's system, hercocet, vallium, benergan, and ambion.

25:43 None were president levels considered lethal, though it appeared they had all been taken shortly before her death, within an hour. The pathologists ultimately concluded that Michelle died of cardiovascular disease, citing hypertension and inflammation of the heart or myocarditis, which dud to an unexpected arrhythmia and sudden death. Alexa knew the talk screen was off. Michelle hadn't while in her care taken valium or ambient and why would Michelle have taken an ambient in the morning. That's a good question. Martin wanted to get the funeral over as quickly as possible and move on with his life. He was vehemently opposed to having Michelle's family at the funeral, and forbid the children from talking to them, although Martin did allow Michelle's sister, Linda Kloff to attend. The rest of the Summer's family followed Martin's wishes, not because they respected him, but because they didn't want to cause a scene in front of the children. The day after the funeral, they held a private service. One out of place person among the mourners was gipsy Jill Willis. She even texted Martin several times during the service.

26:48 Oh Boy. At the funeral, Martin again used his cane to show his vulnerability. He gave a eulogy that lasted thirty minutes. He missed the opportunity to commend his wife for her dedication to him or their children. Instead, he talked about his life and now he wondered what he'd done to make God angry. Lord, I thought I was your boy, he said, Lord, I thought I was doing a good job. Lord, are you there? A friend of Michelle said, it was probably the strangest funeral I've ever been to. When Martin spoke, it was all about himself. He talked about past traumas in his life, people he had lost, who died of drug overdoses or suicides. It was all about him. He didn't honor Michelle at all. I don't know if he wanted to make us feel sorry for him or amaze that he turned out so well coming up through such difficult circumstances. But it was really just bizarre. It is bizarre and disgusting. Michelle was a wonderful mother and wife. Yeah, all of his success was because of her. Martin's behavior struck many as odd, even performative. When he thought no one was watching, he seemed to forget to use his cane, and he was seen laughing at one point, even remarking that he was now a bachelor, felt jarringly out of place for a man with young children at home who had been claiming he was terminally ill. But as the days passed, his health seemed to improve, and he never again mentioned having cancer or any other terminal disease. Later, a deep dive into his medical records revealed that Martin had never been given a terminal cancer diagnosis, and investigators

28:20 believed that he concocted the whole story to make it seem like he would have been unable to lift Michelle from the bathtub. But he did have that one disease that I don't remember the name of, but it just affected his nerves and it made his toe inflame. Yeah, it took Martin a year to mount a tombstone for Michelle, and when he did, it was an iceore. He poured concrete at the cemetery to form an oddly shaped six foot monstrosity of a tombstone that he etched himself. Later, he added an engraved plaque to the tombstone. I can't imagine how hard it would be to make your own tombstone. Honestly, it looks better than you would think. That's very bizarre though.

29:00 Yeah, probably just to save money, though, I guess. In the days after Michelle's funeral, Martin was seen taking steps to fold Gypsy into his life in a very official way. He submitted paperwork for a military identification card, something that would allow Gypsy to access spousal benefits through his service. On the application, he listed her as his wife. On the line for their wedding date, he wrote April fourteenth, two thousand and seven, the same day Michelle was buried, and doing so he set in motion a scheme that allowed him and Gypsy to obtain government benefits they were never entitled to, money that he would later be forced to repay. Wow, so you were from part one. He was in the military for a couple of years, then he was released because of his late and schizophrenia diagnosed.

29:46 Oh that's right, yeah, and he and Gypsy. They did not get married though, right, he just lied about this one. I think they may have had some sort of personal ceremony where they saw themselves married. After Michelle's death, nothing official. Michelle's three oldest daughters, Rachel, Vanessa, and Alexis rallied around their younger sisters, taking turns caring for them in the aftermath of their mother's death. It was the most meaningful way they could honor her memory. Martin returned to work the following Monday. He had only taken two days off from his job. When friends and coworkers asked Martin what happened to his wife, he claimed that Michelle had pushed for the elective surgery and wanted it done discreetly out of town with a doctor they didn't already know. He said the doctor had missed an underlying heart condition, and that Michelle died from a reaction to her medications. A coworker noticed that he was still wearing his wedding band, but it was different. There was a black stripe he hadn't remembered seeing before. When someone pointed it out, he said that he'd lost his ring and felt naked without it, so he'd bought a new one. But it seemed that Martin had ditched his old ring for a new one to symbolize his commitment to gypsy.

30:58 So that's evidence to what I said about they might have had some sort of ceremony just between the two of them, because it was odd that he was wearing a different ring. Right, If you remember back to the first episode. Martin had been charged with check fraud and other felonies in the nineteen seventies. Michelle's mother had kept a file on him for more than thirty years. Three days after Michelle's death, her sister, Linda Kloff, walked into the Utah County Sheriff's office with that file in hand. She was directed to the Pleasant Grove Police department and told to ask for Detective Mark Wright, the lead investigator on Michelle's case. When Linda met with him, Wright was polite but firm. He told her he believed Michelle's death had been an accident.

31:41 Weeks later, after the toxicology report came back, he called Linda with a final determination. The case was closed. Michelle's death had been ruled natural. Linda couldn't accept it. Martin was a doctor, she said, he would know how to cover up what he did to my sister. So it seems like there was was no investigation into Michelle's cause of death. Yeah, that certainly is what it seems like, especially with the crime like the crime scene, not preserving that or anything. And then yeah, just closing the books that quickly. Martin told his older daughters that they needed to get on with their lives and he was going to hire a nanny. They were resistant to the idea. Rachel, who worked as a dental hygienist, offered to quit her job so she could take care of her sisters, but her father refused their help. One day, Martin asked Rachel to meet him outside of their Mormon temple to pray about finding the perfect nanny. Martin went to the bathroom when a striking woman with long, dark hair approached Rachel and struck up a conversation. She said her name was Jill and that she was a nursing student. Rachel wasn't interested in talking about nursing school when she was still in the heavy throes of grief. Martin returned from the bathroom and was very interested in Jill and encouraged Rachel to talk to her about attending nursing school too. Rachel realized the whole was a setup. Later, Martin called Alexis to tell her he'd found the perfect nanny, a nursing student named Jill Gypsy.

33:08 Jill Willis the woman Mom thought you were having an affair with Martin's temper flared. He denied everything, then abruptly hung up on his daughter, Alexis was left with a choice. More than anything, she wanted to protect her younger sisters and to hold her father accountable for what she believed he had done. She didn't fully know what he was capable of, but she knew one thing she couldn't confront him, had on not yet. If she was going to protect her sisters and uncover the truth, she would have to be careful, strategic, even if it meant playing along with a man she believed was capable of murder. What Alexis didn't know was that she wasn't the only one building a case. Her aunt Linda was doing the same. Later, Martin called a meeting with Rachel, Vanessa, and Damien. He told them Alexis was no longer part of the family.

33:59 He was done with her, done with what he called her speculation. Then he shifted as if this were all practical, they would form a committee to choose a nanny. The next day, four applicants were scheduled to come. Only one arrived, Jill. The others never showed. The committee didn't support hiring her, but Martin moved forward anyway. It wasn't really a decision, it was already made. He was bringing his girlfriend into the house. She moved into the basement bedroom, but it didn't take long for the illusion to fall apart. She wasn't cooking, she wasn't cleaning, she wasn't taking care of the children. I saw her come and go throughout the day, Alexis later said, I never saw her pick up the children.

34:42 I never saw her cook or clean. I saw her following my dad around a lot. The only person the new arrangement seemed to benefit was Martin. With his girlfriend now under the same roof, he had exactly what he wanted, knights together after the girls were in bed, and the occasional afternoon. But as a nanny, Gypsy wasn't just unprepared, she wasn't even trying. The three girls, still grieving their mother, were left to navigate their days without support. She didn't drive them to school, she didn't take them to ballet. She didn't step into the role that they so clearly needed filled. Years later, Sabrina would say she didn't do much. She made spaghetti once. That was the only time she really cooked. She didn't do anything. She lived downstairs. Gipsy kept up the ruse that her name was Jill. Martin was sure to introduce her to friends and neighbors as Jill the nanny, but they were often seen out together and she was never with the girls. She wasn't unkind to them, just uninterested. She was also busy finishing up nursing school and nurturing her relationship with Martin. In May, just weeks after Michelle's death, she decided to take Martin to Wyoming to visit her parents, who were raising her daughter Heidi, now twelve, as their own. Gypsy wasn't one hundred percent honest with her her parents. She said that Martin had been widowed in January and they had just started dating. Vicki Willis later said, frankly, we were giddy about Martin joining the family. Martin McNeil is a very impressive person. He's tall, he's got a bright white smile.

36:16 He holds the title of doctor and also attorney or lawyer, both of which are highly esteemed in American society. We were pleased, of course. He's tall, so you know, and that makes him a good person. And he had a bright white smile too. After her semester was over, Alexis returned home to Utah, which put a damper on Gypsy and Martin's relationship. Alexis didn't have a room of her own, so she slept in her parents' bed while Martin slept on the couch in the adjoining sitting room. One night, she felt someone touching her buttocks, followed by the sensation of a wet tongue on her hand. She screamed. Her father quickly apologized, claiming he had mistaken her for her mother. It was an awkward and painful situation for Alexis. Next day, Martin addressed the uncomfortable incident with the rest of his daughters and told them that they couldn't come into his bedroom at night or fear that he might mistake them for their mother too. He would have to sleep with the door closed, which gave Gipsy cover to slip into his room again at night undetected.

37:18 No one was fooled about what was happening between Martin and the nanny. When Alexis and Rachel confronted him, he erupted, ordered them out of the house, and called the police. In that moment, his priorities were unmistakable. He had made his choice and it wasn't his family. So she called him later and begged for his forgiveness, just so she could keep coming back to the house. So if you didn't think Martin was a sleeze bag before. I had, that whole story is just shocking and creepy, disturbing, very disturbing. So if you're wondering how old the kids are, I'm going to go through them really quick. Rachel is the oldest. She's about twenty seven, Vanessa is about twenty five, Alexis is about twenty four. Damian, the youngest biological child and only son, is twenty one. Giselle is sixteen, Ela is fourteen, Sabrina is thirteen, and Ada is six.

38:12 I've forgotten they had adopted children from Ukraine. Right, Yes, they had adopted three. Well, they had four adoptions, but one of them. Didn't work out and maybe, yeah, she ended up in another foster home. Right, We'll be back after a break. After they were ejected from their family home, Alexis and Rachel joined forces with their aunt Linda to investigate their father. They hired a PI to learn more about Gypsy Jill Willis. Since the middle of the night incident with her father, Alexis had considered filing sexual assault charges against him, but she knew she needed to be strategic. She waited, believing that when the time came, it might give her leverage to protect her sisters and possibly custody. Must have been so scary for her though, knowing that the young girls were still in the home right and she couldn't be there all the time. Yeah, Terry and Susan, Michelle's two other sisters, came into town to visit Detective Mark Wright at the Pleasant Grove Police Department with Linda. They laid all their cards on the table and implored him once again to open an investigation into Michelle's death, but Right firmly stated the cases closed. Linda recalled, they were very rude.

39:28 They made us feel like we were wasting their time and putting them out. They were not interested in anything we had to say at all. But that didn't stop Linda. She and her daughter Jill Harper Smith, along with Alexis, started a full blown investigation, digging into Martin's past, going back thirty years. Didn't happen overnight, but eventually these women would bring him down. Meanwhile, in June, Martin purchased a four and a half carrot diamond engagement ring for Gypsy. Four and a half carrots. It's pretty big huge. They both coach the Mormon Church about unsealing their previous marriages. In July, while in Wyoming visiting Gypsy's family, Martin proposed, I've loved you from the moment we first met, will you marry me? She happily accepted.

40:15 None of his children were present for the engagement. The next day, he informed them by email. When they returned to Utah, there was no more pretense. Martin and Gypsy openly displayed their relationship. In July, Martin, Alexis, Rachel, and the three younger girls took a trip to California to visit some family friends, the Bloodstoves. Once there, it became obvious to Alexis that Martin was hinting to his longtime friends that they should adopt Giselle, El, Sabrina, and Ada. Alexis was furious because she'd made it clear that if he didn't want custody of the girls any longer, she did. While they were staying in the hotel, there was another incident with Martin getting into Alexis's bed in the middle of the night and touching her inappropriately. Again, she debated whether she should go to the police or not, and decided against it. After they returned from California, Giselle sixteen, had made plans to visit relatives in her home country of Ukraine for the summer. Martin asked Alexis to accompany her, then come back alone. He would take care of the rest.

41:16 Alexis agreed, but only after he threatened to keep her from her sisters. Before they left, Martin gave her strict instructions rang Jizelle's passport back to the United States. He said he was worried that she might lose it. At the end of the summer, Giselle was still in Ukraine with no airplane ticket and no return plan. Martin stopped taking her calls, and without her passport, she had no way to leave. She was left there living with relatives who were already struggling, unable to afford another mouth to feed. Gizelle felt abandoned and dejected from the McNeil family. Wow, that is just crazy. Sixteen years old and he just leaving her in Ukraine with no way to get home.

41:58 I mean, he doesn't care about any of his children, but especially these poor adopted children. Yeah. Wow. Soon after Martin announced that the California couple the Bledsoes had aggreated to adopt the girls. Alexis was not going to let that happen. She moved quickly, having papers drawn up to sue her father for custody. Martin went ballistic, threatening to have her kicked out of medical school and to ruin her future, but Alexis didn't back down. She was done playing along and if he pushed her, she was ready to go to the police, ready to report the sexual assaults that had happened not once, but twice. When Martin didn't back down, she threatened to have the investigation into Michelle's death reopened. The next day, the girls were dropped off in Nevada at Alexis's apartment. She started the process of adopting El Sabrina and Ada. Giselle remained in Ukraine. Emboldened, Alexis filed another lawsuit, this time for the family home and Pleasant Grove. Weeks before Michelle's death, Martin had transferred the house and other key investments into her name under the ruse that he was dying as executor of Michelle's estate. Alexis now had a legal claim, and she intended to use it when Martin tried to sell the house out from under her. The lawsuit locked the sale. In September two thousand and seven, Martin was charged with two counts of forcible sexual abuse after Alexis went to the police. Martin was livid, which led to many contentious phone calls between father and daughter. Unbeknownst to Martin, Alexis was taping the calls. In one conversation, he said,

43:30 I'm still a sexual person. I have desires that need to be met. Oh my god, I know, he totally creeped out. Yes. Yes. Martin was also charged with witness tampering when Alexis handed over another recorded conversation to police in which he told her that if she dropped the lawsuit against him that he'd hand over the girls. Alexis wasn't done with her father. Determined to inflict maximum damage, she leaked paperwork regarding his nineteen seventy seven felony conviction for fraud that he'd never closed, and he was fired from his high profile job. Oh don't mess with Alexis. Right days before the trial was set to start for Martin's sexual assault against Alexis. In April two thousand and eight, the judge throughout the lawsuit, citing insufficient evidence. Martin had never told Gypsy that he'd been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

44:19 Now that they lived together, it became glaringly obvious to her that he had significant ships in his mood, especially with the stress he was under fighting with his family and the sudden loss of his job. Their fights escalated, and Martin became abusive, hitting, punching, and kicking Gypsy. She documented the bruises, called the police and moved out, but not for long. She soon returned to the house, and that wasn't the only problem they faced. Martin began to see Gypsy as a financial liability. She had avoided paying taxes for years and owed the federal government thousands of dollars. If they married, her debt could put his assets at risk. He wanted the marriage, just not the consequences, so he came up with a solution. He falsified Jizelle's birth certificate, making her twenty years older. Gypsy Jill Willis became Jillian Gisell McNeil. Then he changed his will. He named Gypsy as executor and disinherited all eight of his children, well almost He left each of them one dollar. Linda, Michelle's sister, was able to track Gazelle down in the Ukraine and helped her get back to the US. Jesseelle was both angry and heartbroken. Understandable yeah, she wanted nothing to do with any of the McNeil's, especially her sisters, whom she couldn't forgive. Linda decided to adopt her. Martin made a half hearted attempt to fight for custody, not out of love, but to prevent Linda from having her. In the end, Linda prevailed and Giselle never spoke with any of the others.

45:53 But as the adoption moved forward, the altered birth certificate created a problem, one that couldn't easily be acc explained away. It triggered a tangle of red tape that delayed the finalization of the adoption, and the damage didn't in there. In the years that followed, Giselle's struggled to reclaim her identity. The falsified records followed her, affecting her credit and complicating even the most basic parts of her life. The determination of Linda and Alexis paid off when a new prosecutor was assigned to Michelle's case, Doug Whitney. He was impressed by what the women had uncovered about Martin, and he was willing to work with them on the investigation. Whitney was shocked that when Michelle died, there was so little investigation.

46:36 Reviewing the documents, one detail stood out above all the rest, the position of Michelle's body. The neighbor had witnessed her slumped inside the tub, but Martin told police, paramedics, and even his children that Michelle had been draped over the edge, her face submerged in water. The lividity on the backs of her legs and buttocks suggested that she died laying on her back, contradicting Martin's account. The important witness that had never been questioned was Ada McNeil, now seven. If you remember back to April eleventh, two thousand and seven, she found Michelle when she came home from kindergarten. On September ninth, two thousand and eight, Alexis brought Ada for an interview to the Children's Justice Center in Provo, Utah.

47:17 The interviewer, a female police officer, was kind and patient, but Ada repeatedly answered her questions, I don't want to talk about it. Eventually, she warmed up to the officer and said Michelle had been wearing a blue shirt, pants and a jacket. She described the water in the top as brown and that you couldn't see through it. She described her mother as laying in the tob her head was out of the water, her hair was going down the drain, all the water was red, and her eyes were open. Ada said. Next, the investigators met with the Chief Medical Examiner for the state of Utah to compel him to change Michelle's autopsy report. He refused based on the level of drugs in Michelle's talk screen being at the therapeutic levels, and he said her lungs did not appear to be those of a drowning victim, although several cups of liquid had been in her lungs during CPR.

48:09 So the fact that there was liquid in her lungs when the paramedics were doing the CPR and is important because if Martin had been doing it, it should have been expelled then. Right When Linda learned of Martin's diagnosis of latent schizophrenia, she had always been suspicious and thought he may have faked the symptoms to receive benefits from the military and full social security benefits, and she was right. Since he had been discharged from the military, he had received over one hundred thousand dollars from them. As they delved into his college years, they uncovered something startling. He had stolen someone else's transcripts to gained admission to medical school and later law school, all without ever disclosing his prior felony conviction.

48:55 As they dug deeper into his employment history, a troubling pattern began to merge across multiple positions. There were reports of misdiagnoses and allegations of sexual misconduct each time he moved on. Martin failed to disclose his past, his conviction, his history of mental health issues, and the concerns that seemed to follow him from place to place. Martin McNeil, it seemed, was a fraud in every area of his life. Do you remember back to the first episode when we talked about the Zech fraud and how he had falsified some documents, then by having like this, yeah. That's coming back to me. Yeah. When the investigators revealed their findings to his daughters, Rachel said, the father that I knew was a fictional character. It was an act the whole time Alexis said, the father, we knew he was just a facade. He betrayed us to our very core.

49:50 I mean, everything that we thought in our life was just all shattered. It was a sham. It really is. It's been a whole sham. In two thousand and eight, when blow ugging was at its peak, Alexis took a new approach and created a blog seeking information about her father, hoping other women would come forward with their experiences about Martin. The response was overwhelming. She was shocked at the number of people who reached out to her, the span of years that had been happening, and the extent of the harrowing stories about her father. How had he kept all his dark secrets? How had no one outed him to law enforcement? There was one thought she couldn't shake. If her mother had known the full extent of his behavior, she would have left, and if she had left, she might still be alive. Martin decided that he and Gipsy needed to get out of Utah, but first he needed to sell his house because it was involved in a lawsuit with Alexis. That was impossible. He tried to secretly take control of the house by pretending Michelle was still alive and transferring the property into his own name. Then Gypsy, using a new identity, placed a fake one million dollar lean on the home to keep his daughters from claiming it, but federal agents caught on, set up a sting and had them both arrested. They caught Martin, much to his surprise, at the airport, coming home from a job interview in Washington.

51:15 He had no idea he was under federal investigation. A swat team arrested Gypsy at the house on Mill Creek Road. Martin was charged with nine counts, including identity theft, and Gypsy eleven. He was also recharged with the two thousand and seven sexual assault of Alexis. Gypsy and Martin would not see each other for three years. She was eventually free on bail, but he remained in jail while the case went through the appeals process. Her relationship with her family had been strained for years, but they now completely turned their backs on her after learning the depths of her involvement in Michelle's death. They fully believed that she was capable of plotting her murder with.

51:57 Martin, although there was never any definitive evidence found linking her to Michelle's murder or that she had known about it. Months after his arrest, Martin fifty three pleaded guilty to a range of charges, including aggravated identity theft, false statements, and fraud. In August two thousand and nine, he was sentenced to forty eight months in federal prison, with his state sentences running concurrently. As part of his sentence, he had to sacrifice his medical license for ten years, although because his degree had been obtained using false credentials, he'd never be granted another medical license anyway. Gypsy also pleaded guilty to aggravated identity theft and was sentenced to twenty one months. Just before she was set to report to prison, she left the state, raising concerns she might flee to Mexico.

52:48 When she returned to Salt Lake City, she was arrested at the airport and taken into custody. Gypsy was also forced to give up her nursing credentials. At Martin's final sentencing, Linda, Alexis, and Rachel were in the courtroom as he was led away in handcuffs. He looked at Alexis and sneered, I hope you're happy with what you've done, Alexis and her sisters found a sense of peace knowing Martin and Gypsy were behind bars, but they understood it was only a brief respite. Martin was sent to the federal prison in Texarkana, Texas. Somewhat surprisingly, he adapted well. He worked as an orderly and other inmates came to know him as Doc, often seeking his medical advice. His days at the minimum security facility were spent exercising and writing letters almost daily to Gypsy, who was at Carswell Women's Correctional Institute in Fort Worth, Texas.

53:43 So, I know what you're thinking here. Why are these two inmates communicating to each other that you were involved in the same case, and normally that would be forbidden, but they were using an intermediary of Gypsies, so they were writing these letters through Carol Okay. He responded to Martin's letters and declarations of love, although less frequently. Still, the two remained steadfast in their commitment to each other. Meanwhile, Alexis was still fighting for the house and Michelle's estate. Later that year, a judge ruled that the estate should go. To Martin, which makes no sense. No, Damien was the only McNeil offspring, who supported his father.

54:24 He lived in the house on Mill Creek Road before he left the state to attend law school at NYU after he and his long term girlfriend, Eileen had broken up. After his first year of law school, Damien, isolated from his family and alone in New York City, was left to wrestle with dark thoughts. I want to know what it feels like to kill without remorse, he wrote on his Twitter account. The Utah County Attorney's Office considered Damian McNeil a ticking time bomb, someone who had been through a lot in his life and apparently it is coming to a head, and they warned NYU officials so that they should take whatever action deemed necessary to avoid future violence.

55:05 That is a very disturbing and alarming thing to publicly post on Twitter, definitely. Damien continued on with law school, but his online presence was dotted with suicidal ideation and clips from depressing films, such as Lars von Trier's two thousand and nine film Antichrist, Darren Aronofsky's two thousand and six film The Fountain, and the two thousand and two film The Hours. On January fifteenth, on what would have been Michelle's fifty third birthday, He wrote on Facebook. They're all here, aren't they? All the ghosts, All the ghosts are assembling for the party. I don't think I can make it to the party. Damian took his life that day by overdosing on prescription drugs and asphyxiating himself. His sisters were heartbroken to lose their only brother. Alexis wrote in his obituary, Damien returned to his loving mother's arms.

56:00 Amian was blessed with a mother who taught him the true meaning of love, the true meaning of life, the truth. Together we will live forever. As so said and devastating. In twenty ten, Alexis completed medical school and became a primary care physician. She and her longtime boyfriend, Brett Doxy married and bought a home in South Jordan, Utah. Instead of taking her husband's last name, she chose to become doctor Lexi Summers, honoring her mother. Investigators were still piecing together exactly how Michelle died and whether Martin could be held responsible. The original pathology report seemed certain that her death was related to her heart, but further examination of Michelle's autopsy report led some experts to believe that the myocarditis could have been caused by the cocktail of drugs in her system, and those alone could have caused her death.

56:55 It was enough to change Michelle's cause of death on her autopsy to undetermined. In twenty eleven, Gypsy thirty four, was released from federal prison, but still faced state charges in Utah. To avoid serving more time, Gypsy pleaded guilty to multiple charges, including identity fraud, false statements, and filing an improper lean in exchange for her cooperation agreeing to testify against Martin. She was sentenced to three years of probation. The judge borrowed her from contacting Martin or his family and ordered her to complete a cognitive restructuring program aimed at addressing manipulative behavior. True to her word, Gypsy ceased all contact with him. We'll be back after a break.

57:49 In twenty eleven, Vanessa McNeil was still struggling with addiction to heroin. Unable to hold down a job, she and her boyfriend resorted to stealing copper wire from construction sites. They were both arrested for theft and possession of heroine. She'd reached her rock bottom and Once released from jail, she once again went to rehab, but this time it stuck. Vanessa and Ada reconnected and later she had another child, a son. So that's some good news and all this darkness right at fifty six. Martin was released from prison in July twenty twelve after serving three years. He returned to the house on Mill Creek Road, and after years of distance, his daughters once again found themselves fearing what he might do next. Prosecutors were still working to bring charges against him and Michelle's death, hoping to catch her capture a conversation between Martin and Gipsy. Investigators obtained a wire tap, but Gipsy avoided his calls and the warrant expired.

58:47 Martin's freedom was short lived. On August twenty fourth, he was arrested for Michelle's murder, almost five and a half years after her death. Prosecutors believed they had a strong case. What they he knew, there was risk much. It was built on circumstantial evidence and conflicting expert opinions. He was held on a one million dollar bond that he could not pay. The strain in the family was immediate. Rachel suffered a mental health crisis and was hospitalized for several days. In October twenty twelve, a preliminary hearing was held to determine whether there was probable cause to proceed in the trial. Over six days, two dozen witnesses testified, including Gypsy. She later said it was good to see Martin that she still loved him. Martin's daughters also took the stand. He sat there expressionless. At the end of the hearing, the judge ruled that there was enough evidence to move forward.

59:41 The trial was initially scheduled for March twenty thirteen, but it would be delayed several times. Finally, on October fifteenth, twenty thirteen, jury selection began. Five men and three women were chosen. In Utah juries are only eight people. Did you know that? We probably have talked about that before, but I forgot I did not know it. The jury didn't hear everything. The judge placed strict limits on what could be presented at trial, excluding several key pieces of testimony and context. Witnesses were barred from sharing certain statements. Alexis, for example, was not allowed to tell the jury that her mother had once warned her, if anything happens to me, make sure it isn't your dad, the court ruled at hearsay.

1:00:22 Other details were also kept out. Jurors never heard that Martin had forced his adult daughters out of the home. Even language was controlled, prosecutors were limited to referring to Michelle as a victim except during opening and closing statements. The defense meanwhile, attempted to keep several of the McNeil's children from testifying, claiming that they were unreliable witnesses, citing mental health and addiction struggles. While those efforts largely failed, they were successful in preventing Aida from taking the stand, arguing her memory had been influenced by her sisters. At the same time, the defense introduced an alternate theory, suggesting that michelle death may not have been a homicide after all, and even implying that her son, Damien could have been involved.

1:01:06 In the end, the jury was presented with a tightly curated version of events, one that excluded some of the most emotional, controversial, and potentially revealing pieces of the story. An inmate named Michael Buchanan later claimed that Martin confessed to him, saying that he had administered a mixture of drugs through an enema and encouraged Michelle to take a bath and then held her head under the water once the drugs took effect. Out of all the different theories, I think this one makes sense to me. Post surgery, a lot of people are constipated, and I believe that Alexis said that Michelle had complained about that, and Martin apparently was a fan of enemas, and so I.

1:01:48 Feel like that could have been convinced her to. Michelle's plastic surgeon. Doctor Scott Thompson testified that he knew the combination of medications could be dangerous, but because Michelle's husband was a physician, he'd believed that she would be properly monitored and safe. In Utah, the jury is able to ask questions to witnesses through the judge. Question one, the jury asked, did it concern you that Martin was acting as the primary care physician for Michelle? Doctor Thompson said, yeah, I thought that was a little unusual. The second question was did you raise any objections or concerns with Martin and Michelle about that? Doctor Thompson said no, and Martin had also consulted with another physician, so that made me feel better. Anna Whitehall we talked about her. In episode one, Martin's former lover, the one that he'd told about his dark passenger, testified. What she revealed was chilling. Anna said that Martin confided in her over the years that he had killed several patients mercy killings, he called them, but in reality, he was appeasing his darker self. He injected his patients with high doses of potassium to trigger cardiac arrest and vince the method was undetectable because it occurs naturally in the body. He was certain that he would never be caught. Andy began to suspect that that might be how Martin had killed Michelle. Anna's testimony, though, would be torn apart by the defense. She'd been diagnosed with

1:03:18 disassociative identity disorder and was fixated on death, even becoming pen pals with the son of Sam killer David Berkowitz. I have to say I'm always baffled at what judges allowed to be included and what they exclude from the trials. It seems really baffling to me that they excluded things like being able to refer to Michelle as a victim, but then they allow Anna to testify that he told her about killing patients. That just seems really strange to me. We've talked about this before, but jurys don't predict the outcome of a trial. Often it's the judge right. Gipsy testified for two days. It was the only time Martin showed emotion. Even his children had testified. Gipsy largely defended Martin.

1:04:04 She gave clipped answers, mostly yes or no, or I don't recall. By the second day of testimony, the judge determined that her answers appears to align at least partially with the defense and declared her a hostile witness. So, after all that they've been through, Gipsy is still back in his campus. Right, She's still smitten with him. Over thirteen days, the jury heard from sixty witnesses. On Friday, November eighth, the jury got to work after lunch and worked late into the night. At one a m. Everyone filed back into the courtroom to hear the verdict. Martin was found guilty on one count of murder and one count of obstruction of justice. He faced fifteen years to life for the murder charge, an additional one to fifteen years for the obstruction charge. His sentencing was set for January, but before that he would stand trial once more, this time for the sexual assault of his daughter, Alexis. Alexis was now a new mother to twins, and she told reporters with tears streaming down her face after the verdict, We're just so happy that he can't hurt anyone else.

1:05:09 I can't believe this has finally happened. Once back in his cell, Martin pendus suicide notes, then sliced his thigh with a razor along his femoral artery. The guard found him on the floor of his cell in a puddle of blood. Parametics recalled and his wound was stitched. When he was sent back to the jail, he was put in isolation on suicide watch. He appeared deeply depressed, almost despondent, and his attorneys argued that he was not fit to stand trial again and needed to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Martin refused to undergo an evaluation for months. Finally, in late April twenty fourteen, he agreed he was deemed competent to proceed, and a trial was scheduled for July. There was talk of a plea deal, but Alexis refused because she wanted to face her father in court. The trial lasted just two days, and Martin was found guilty of sexually assaulting his head daughter. How tough is Alexis very tough.

1:06:03 I'm very impressed by her. Martin fifty eight, received the maximum sentence for his crimes, fifteen years till life for the murder of Michelle, one to fifteen years for obstruction of justice, and one to fifteen years for the sexual assault of Alexis. The judge said that his acts were due to unmitigated selfishness that really shocks the conscience. He was given credit for the seven hundred and forty eight days he'd served. Linda, Michelle's sister, said upon the sentencing, this is what we were hoping for. Its utter relief. It's indescribable. I felt Michelle's presence there. It's such a wonderful feeling. On April ninth, twenty seventeen, after serving two and a half years in prison, Martin McNeil, sixty, was found dead on the grounds of Utah State Prison near a greenhouse. Officials later confirmed that he took his own life using a plastic bag and a hose attached to a natural gas line. He'd recently lost an appeal for a new trial.

1:06:58 Wow. Michelle Summer McNeil's obituary red in part, her life was dedicated to her family. Her life was dedicated to helping all around her. We know her dedication lives on her outer beauty and talents were so great, yet nothing compared to the beauty of her soul, the light of Christ, a flaming fire that burned so brightly for all to see. Another friend said Michelle had an ability to touch people that no other person could touch. She was loved and adored by the people who shut out the rest of the world. While the loss of their mother affected all of the McNeil children, Damien never seemed to find his way back after Michelle's death. Damien carried the loss of his mother with him and was never able to truly overcome it. Rest in peace, Damien, and rest in peace, Michelle.

1:07:44 What happened to Michelle might have been dismissed, explained away, or ultimately forgotten if not for the women who refused to let that happen. But weren't for the efforts of Linda Clough, Alexis Summers, Rachel McNeil and others Martin McNeil would have gotten away with murder. They asked hard questions, gave their time, but their relationships and careers at risk, and spent money they didn't have. Days turned into months and months to years. Yet they didn't give up. They loved Michelle deeply and they refused to let her death go unpunished and her story left unfinished. They were fearless in their pursuit of justice for Michelle. Well, that was quite a roller coaster ride. I'm really shocked that Martin ended up taking his own life in prison.

1:08:26 But while what a story and what a nice tribute to the women who really made this happen that you said there at the end. I mean really they persevered and refused to give up, And that's just so impressive, just such an. Act of love, like the ultimate act of love. And it was really moving that they did not give up. Absolutely after Michelle's death, Noel, who was the eldest adoptee from a Ukraine, reached out and reconnected with her siblings. Oh nice. Yeah, I do have a few questions. Some of them are just comments like what the hell happened there? How do you let your six year old daughter find her mother dad in the bast I don't. I mean, that's one that's a great question, one of many great questions of this this guy, just I am.

1:09:12 We talk about a lot of horrible people that do horrible things, but this has to be one of the worst. I mean, just everything, piece of. Garbage, but not just ada, but he the impact that it had on all of this children. Oh totally. I mean just he ruined you know, Damien's life certainly and certainly a lot of the other kids I'm sure were traumatized and had to deal with that trauma for years. Michelle and Martin's marriage was sealed in the church, meaning that they were supposed to be together for eternity. Do you think that Martin believed in his religion? I mean, I think most religions say thou shalt not kill, and you know, so the fact that he did that tells me that he was not a truly religious person who really followed his faith. So you know, you can't take anything that he did as being aligned with his alleged belief system.

1:10:06 Was Michelle killed because Martin wanted a new life with Gypsy or because Michelle had begun to see him for who he was. I mean, potentially both, but it certainly sounds like the fact that he moved on so quickly with Gypsy and you know, having her move into the house and everything, that does tell me that, yeah, he was very anxious to start a new life. So it wouldn't surprise me if that was his primary motive. But yeah, also it seemed like Michelle was catching on to who he really was. Gypsy's sister Julie called her a deceptive, malevolent, malicious, calculating person. Do you think that that's why Martin was attracted to her? He saw himself and her. I mean maybe when you talked about them engaging in joint fraud and identity theft together, that tells me that she was not just an innocent bystander in all this like she was. Whether she was involved in Michelle's death or not, I don't know, but she definitely was, you know, involved in some shady things with him. And so yeah, they did. They did have that in common for sure.

1:11:08 Martin's ex girlfriend or ex mistress, I should say, Anna had said that he was involved with killing patients of his As far as I know, that was never investigated any further, and I'm curious how many people he could have potentially killed. Yeah, chilling, It is really chilling, and I am curious as well. I guess we'll never know the answer to it. So it's hard to say whether he really did those things, or whether he said those things because he maybe had an urge to do those things or you know. So it's hard to say, but I wish we knew. Yeah, and it should even though he's dad, and you know, it's over to some degree and it should be investigated.

1:11:50 Well, if you remember, he worked in a hospital for people with developmental disabilities and some of those people are placed there and forgotten. That just makes it even worse. That's really really horrible. But they deserve just like if if he did do those things, those victims deserve justice as well, even though he's no longer around to face the consequences. Well, the last thing I wanted to mention was Shanna Hogan's twenty fifteen book The Stranger She Loved, O Mormon doctor, his beautiful wife, and an almost perfect murder. That was my primary source. It was such a good source. I didn't do a lot of straneous research, but yeah, definitely recommend that book. What a wild story. I know you said, this is a fairly well known story. I wasn't familiar with it before, but gosh, what a crazy story and what a horrible man.

1:12:35 M So I recently we're gonna have a little book club discussion. Oh okay. I recently finished Stephen King's book eleven twenty two sixty three, which you read not that lung a couple of years ago. Yeah, and I can't stop thinking about it. I love that book so much, Maybe one of my favorite books I've ever read. Wow. I didn't love it as much as you, but I I thought it was more of a I shouldn't say things or boy books and girl books, But it was more like a boy book in my opinion. But it was really good. But I can't stop thinking about if I could go back in history? Yeah, what would I change? Yeah? That definitely makes you makes you think about things like that.

1:13:16 So I'm asking you, if you could go back, what would you change? You'd have to make the choice. Am I going to change something personally in my life? Would I not marry that annoying, redheaded nag of a wife? Or would I? Do you know, change something historically for the betterment of society. I would probably just go buy stock in IBM or Microsoft. So yet money answer would be. Money is what makes you happy? Is that what you're trying to say? No, but money is a nice thing to have. But I I think it would be going back and changing something like I think changing something historically would be very hard because you don't know the consequences of what you are going to change. You could think you're making a change for the better, and you know what the butterfly effect like, you could make one change and it could cause all kinds of terrible things that happen. You just have no idea, So I would be hesitant to change something major from a historical perspective.

1:14:16 I would go kill Adolf Hitler as a toddler. Well, that would be really probably a good idea. But you know, killing a toddler would not be easy. But it is hard because there is a couple of things in my life that I would go back and change. I don't want to go into that. No, Okay, not marrying you, by the way, that would. Be one thing you'd change is not marrying me. That's what the opposite of that. I would still marry you. I would still marry you two. But I've read a few other books that I really have enjoyed. Recently, I'm trying to stay off social media a little bit and reading more. I just wanted to mention them as summer's coming, you know, people read more they have more time off. One of them is a non fiction book called Strangers by Belle Burden. A lot of people have really liked that book. I read it in one day because I couldn't stop reading it. Another book that I read is called Good People. I might murder her name right here, but pat Mina Sabite. It's about an Afghani family that's living in the United States and honor killing. Do you know much about honor killing?

1:15:23 I mean, I know what it is. Yeah, we should probably do a case on that. And when we were driving, I was reading it. Yeah. Yeah. It's called The Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett. I read about a third of it on our drive and we've both been reading it since. I know, we sound like the most wholesome couple. It was really nice. I love it so far. I'm really into it. I highly recommend all of those books. So if you guys have read something recently that you enjoy. Let us know, well, once. Again you've wasted a perfectly good hour and twenty minutes listening to Love Mary Kill, but we really appreciate it.

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