Sept. 15, 2025

Molly Martens and Jason Corbett - Part 1

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After the sudden loss of his first wife, Irish widower Jason Corbett hired Molly Martens to help care for his two young children. In time, Molly became more than just an au pair, and Jason eventually brought her and the children with him to North Carolina to start a new life together. But in the middle of a summer night, a desperate 911 call shattered that picture of domestic stability. What unfolded inside the family’s home would lead to years of courtroom drama, international headlines, and lasting rifts between two families an ocean apart.

Listen to Part 2 today on Patreon

Today’s snack: Memaw’s Country Kitchen Cheese Tiddies, Chocolate Chip Cookies, and Lemon Coolers

Sources:

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Hi.

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I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage.

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It's some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary.

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Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich?

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How are you?

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I'm very good? How are you?

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I'm doing good. I'm all hopped up on diet PEPSI

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and I trimmed my eyebrows for you this morning, so

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I am like ready to go. You trimmed your eyebrows

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just for you because I knew i'd be sitting across

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from you for a couple hours here and wanted to

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make sure I look as nice as possible for you.

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I don't think I have commented on your eyebrows honestly in.

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Years, because I keep him trimmed.

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Now, what about the space in between?

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Yeah, that's trim too.

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Oh yeah, Okay, there was a time in our marriage

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that maybe.

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I have kind of heavy eyebrow hair. Let's just leave

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it at that.

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Okay, Well, I think that I haven't mentioned it since.

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Remember the time when I got wax between your very

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defined eye rounds and then I left a blister between.

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Your eyebrows, and I.

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Still feel bad about that to this day.

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You shouldn't feel bad. I have forgotten it. I'm moved on.

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You've moved.

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Yeah, well the eyebrows. Everything looks great. You're very handsome.

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It's funny because I think about that too, because really,

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when we're podcasting, we sit across, we stare at each

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other more than we normally do, because normally we're like

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side by side or Yeah, so I always put makeup

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before we record something. I don't want to make up.

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Look at me without makeup.

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Well, you look very nice to Thank you so much.

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We have a couple of really busy months coming up.

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Are you prepared for all the busyness?

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Do you mean football season?

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Well, it's not just football season. It's the Tigers are

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making a playoff run. They're gonna make the playoffs. Who

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knows how far they'll go. Michigan football starts tonight tonight.

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We're recording on August thirtieth, so we're a little bit

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ahead of schedule. The Lions start next week, so it.

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Sounds like busy for you.

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I know how much you love.

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My free time when you're watching a football game. Yes,

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I do.

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Okay, Well, I just want to make sure you're prepared

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for me to be busy.

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Oh honey, I know, I know. Do you want to

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give us any bold predictions? You have twenty seconds because

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I don't want this to linger too long.

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Okay, Well, bold prediction, Lions, this is the year super Bowl.

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We are winning the Super Bowl this year.

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Yeah.

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I don't think that's especially bold, but that's my.

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So is that what the other football people.

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Are And my other bold prediction, the Tigers will win

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the World Series. It's going to be a magical.

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Sounds amazing, sounds great. What about the Michigan because do

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they have a new coach this year?

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No, last year they had a new coach. Okay, yeah,

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they're not going to win the National Championship this year,

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but they'll.

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Do Okay, Yeah, I still think it's great that they

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wanted that a couple of years ago.

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That was a great season, that was magical.

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Yes, so they don't have to win every season.

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I think we've gone on more than twenty seconds about football.

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Let's move on.

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Yeah, I do. But before we have a snack, I

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did want to mention, really briefly, a redditor made a

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nice post about us the other day on the true

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crime podcast subreddit killer Kim, and we just wanted to

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give a shout out to killer Kim and say thanks.

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That was really that was so kind. Thank you so much, Kim.

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I was scrolling you had sent it to me, But

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then the other day I was scrolling through Reddit and

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I saw it again. It was just like jarring to

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see you know the name of our podcast. Because we're

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still a smaller podcast, We're still growing and so it

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really does make a difference. And I've had several people

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message me since or leave you know, a comment or whatever. Hey,

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I found you from this Reddit post. So again, thank

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you so much. That was so generous, Kim.

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Yeah, I just saw it randomly. I was scrolling through

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Reddit on my phone while waiting for our takeout order.

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See all of a sudden I say love Mary Kill.

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Is like, oh, what a nice surprise.

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It was nice to see it was positive and like,

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oh and you believe that woman?

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Yes, So thank you again, Kim. We appreciate it.

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Other podcasters have like, you know, a love Mary Kill

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like in their name, and we don't. We just kind

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of lurk on there. I think I like it. I

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think it seems more organic that way, so we're looking,

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we're watching. So if you say nice things about us US,

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it really means a lot.

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Yes, all right, Well, part of our case today takes

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place in North Carolina. The other part takes place in Iraq.

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We've been in North Caroline.

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We have been in North Carolina a lot lately. But

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I did when I was in North Carolina recently for work,

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and so I picked up some snacks at the airport. No,

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these are from a company. They're called me Ma's Country Kitchen,

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and they are based in North Carolina. And I brought

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you three snacks.

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Wow. Thanks.

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Now the first one, I'm a little embarrassed to say

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the name of this, but this is the name of it.

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Uh huh.

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They are called cheese tids. That's tid d I e s.

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Just in case you were wondering. But they're these little

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they're little cheese crisps and I bought I bought lemon

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coolers and they're chocolate chip cookies. So we've got three

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little snacks to try.

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Nice.

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All right? You ready, what did you think about the

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MEMA's Country Kitchens.

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I liked all of them. I think Mema knows what

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she's doing in that kitchen.

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Yeah, I really like the cheese things. Those are like really.

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Like those two. Yeah, just like spicy, but like the

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perfect amount of spice. We've had something called moon cheese

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before that have gotten at Costco. I haven't bought it

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in a long time, but it reminds me of that.

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But yeah, I loved all of these snacks. They were

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really good. They don't love like a packaged cookie like

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that always, and yet they were really good. Yeah. I

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think I approached it the wrong way. I went cheese doodle,

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lemon cooler, and then chocolate chip. I probably should have done.

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I think they should have said the lemon with a lemon.

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Yeah.

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I don't know, I don't know, but yeah, very good,

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Thank you good.

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Do you want to give them a rating?

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Sure, I'll give the cheese titty a night out of ten,

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and the cookies I'd give the lemon probably eight out

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of ten, and the chocolate cookie like seven and a

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half out of ten.

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I pretty much pretty much the same.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, Well, as I mentioned today's case, part of it

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takes place in North Carolina, part of it is from Ireland.

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So tomorrow when we do part two, I've got a

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really good snack plan for you. From Ireland.

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You have been talking about this snack for a couple

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of weeks.

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I'm really excited about it.

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Okay, I can't wait.

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Well, this was a case recommendation from Marion who listens

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to us in Dublin, Ireland. So thank you Marion for

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the recommendation. Appreciate it. There's a Netflix documentary called A

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Deadly American Marriage which is about this case. It just

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came out, I think in the spring March timeframes. A

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really good documentary. If you're interested in the case, I

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definitely encourage you to check it out. They interviewed pretty

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much everyone involved in the case directly, and when it

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comes to a case like this where there is maybe

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some question about what happened, I think it's really valuable

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to hear from the people so you can kind of

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judge for yourselves based on you know, the person and

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there the way they talk about themselves and they talk

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about the case. So definitely recommend watching that documentary.

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Did you feel like the documentary was unbiased.

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I think it was. Yeah. I think it was fairly unbiased.

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That's unique because usually there's, you know, some sort of bias.

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In some ways. The documentary may have tried a little

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bit too hard to be unbiased. It may have been

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like kind of you know, one of those both sides

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things like. But I think overall it was very well done.

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We're going to go deeper than the documentary. I read

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three books on this case, all written by people very

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close to the events that took place.

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That is dedication, sir. We well appreciate it.

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They were all really interesting, and I'll talk more about

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the sources at the end. The nine to one to

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one call came in just after three am on Sunday,

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August seventh, twenty fifteen. On the line was Tom Martin's

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thirty year FBI veteran, who had spent his career calmly

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navigating high pressure situations. But this wasn't a case he

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was investigating. It was happening within his own family. Tom

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told the dispatcher he was at his daughter Molly's house

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in Davidson County, North Carolina. Her husband, Jason Corbett, had

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attacked her. Tom said he stepped in to protect her,

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wielding an aluminum baseball bat. His voice was steady, but

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his words were chilling. I may have killed him. When

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first responders arrived, they were met with a horrifying scene.

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Jason Corbett lay motionless, his head injuries so severe that

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when a paramedic tried to tilt his chin to prepare

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for intubation, his fingers slipped inside. Jason's fractured skull blood

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stained the walls, the bedding, the carpet. Tom and his

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daughter Molly told investigators the same story. Jason had wrapped

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his hands around Molly's neck and threatened to kill her.

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Tom rushed in to intervene, and what followed was, in

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his words, a real Donnybrook, a cho struggle that ended

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with Jason dead on the floor. Molly backed up her

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father's account and added more. Jason, she said, had been

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abusive for years, both toward her and the children. Despite

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the bloody scene, it initially seemed to investigators like a

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case of self defense. Lieutenant Detectivemanda Thompson even assured Molly, quote,

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at this point, after talking to your dad and talking

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to you, it looks like this is going to be

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self defense. Okay, I don't think there's going to be

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any issue with that. But in the days and weeks

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that followed, doubts began to creep in. Evidence at the

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scene didn't quite match the story. Jason's acquaintances in Ireland

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painted a very different picture of him, and whispers grew

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louder that this was less a desperate struggle for survival

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and more a calculated plan to stop Jason from taking

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his children back home across the Atlantic. So which was

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it a violent fight for Molly's life or a carefully

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plotted murder.

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You said a word I've never heard before, Donnie brook

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You I've never heard that.

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Okay, it's an old fashioned word, for sure, but it

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just means like a brawl, like a chaotic sort of

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all out brawl.

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Okay, definitely, Mary forever. But you still say things sometimes, Well,

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is it me or.

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Well, this was Tom's word, not mine. I probably wouldn't

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use that word either, but he was the one that

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described it that way.

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Did Tom live with Molly and Jason.

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No, He and his wife, Sharon lived about four hours away.

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They had just come in for a visit that day.

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It seems odd that he would start a fight with

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his wife when his wife's parents were there in the house.

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Well, that is certainly a good observation, and we will

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talk about that. Jason Corbett was born in February nineteen

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seventy six in Limerick, Ireland. He was one of eight children,

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a twin in fact with his brother Wayne. He and

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Wayne were the youngest in the family. Jason's parents, John

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and Rita, had known each other practically all their lives.

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They grew up next door to one another, and John

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even attended school with Frank McCourt, who would go on

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to write the Pulitzer Prize winning memoir Angela's Ashes, which

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we both read many years ago, Really good Look. The

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Corbett household wasn't wealthy, but Jason's sister Tracy remembers their

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childhood as full of warmth and joy. Rita was the

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heart of the family, always keeping the home cozy with

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the smell of something baking or simmering on the hob.

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You know what a hob is, well, I'm guessing it's

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a stovetop right.

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Jason grew up surrounded by love, laughter, and the noisy

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chaos of a big Irish family. When the nineteen eighties

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recession hit, life grew more difficult. John lost his job

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with Shell Oil and money became tight. Even as a teenager,

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Jason stepped up, taking on part time security work to

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help out and to earn a little pocket money. After

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finishing school, he landed a steady job with a local

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company called field Box More. That company later became Multi

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Packaging Solutions, a global leader in specialty packaging, and Jason

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would remain there for the next two decades, right up

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until his death. During those early working years, Jason moved

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in with his older sister Tracy and her husband, Dave Lynch.

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He had always been close to Tracy, but in Dave

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he found not just a brother in law, but a

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role model and a trusted friend. Jason leaned on Dave

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for advice and support, and the two grew to share

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a deep bond. Friends and family described Jason as kind hearted, charismatic,

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and always smiling. He had a booming voice and a

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big personality. If Jason was in the room, you knew

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it more than anything. Though, He was remembered as someone

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who made people feel like they mattered. To everyone who

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crossed his path, Jason Corbett felt like a friend.

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As a young man, Jason David here and there, and

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even when relationships ended, he rarely left things on bad terms.

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More often than not, former girlfriends became lasting friends, a

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testament to his easygoing nature. In nineteen ninety seven, when

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Jason was twenty one, he went to a party with

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his good friend Lynn Shanahan. Lynn brought along a colleague

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from work, a woman named Margaret Maggs Fitzpatrick. The moment

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Jason met her, he was captivated. Like so many gatherings,

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the night stretched lad into laughter, music, and song. After

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the party wound down, the group drifted back to a

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friend's house for a nightcap or two in what they

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called a sing song, where everyone took turns belting out

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traditional Irish tunes. One by one. People dozed off in

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armchairs and on couches until only a few stragglers remained.

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I want to go to a party like that?

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Yeah, I think I went to some like back in

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the day, but it's been a long time. The next morning,

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it was Maggs who was first up, bustling around the

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kitchen to make a proper Irish fry up sausages, bacon, pudding,

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fried eggs, tomatoes, mushrooms, and thick slices of soda bread.

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She realized she was missing a few ingredients and mentioned

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walking to a shop. Jason immediately offered to go with her.

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It was on that walk, hand in hand along the

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quiet road that Jason later said he fell head over

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heels and love for him. That was the moment everything changed.

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A week later they had their first official date, and

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from then on the two were inseparable. Jason would come

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home from nights out with Maggs to keep his roommate

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up half the night, gushing about how lucky he felt.

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Before long, Jason and Maggs moved in together, renting an

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apartment directly above Tracy and Dave's place. Those were golden years,

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Tracy later recalled two young couples stacked one above the other,

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sharing dinners, laughter, and endless evenings together. At work, Jason

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was thriving at multi packaging solutions. He never shied away

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from responsibility, volunteering for extra shifts, taking on difficult tasks,

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and quickly earning the respect of his colleagues. He became

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the union representative, then went on to sit on the

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European Works Council, where he represented employees across the continent

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in labor negotiations. By nineteen ninety seven, he was promoted

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to shift supervisor, and a few years later he began

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attending night classes to further his education. His dedication paid

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off in two thousand and five, Jason was promoted again,

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this time to operations director, a position that came with

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a company car and a sense of pride For a

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boy who'd once taken odd jobs just to help his

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family make ends meet. It was like a dream realized,

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and alongside his career success, Jason's personal life was blossoming.

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In two thousand and two, while on holiday in Barcelona,

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he proposed to Mags. She said yes, and the following

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year they were married in a church overlooking the ocean.

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They had promised not to see each other for three

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days before the ceremony, but Jason, ever the romantic, couldn't

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resist bending the rules in his own way. He secretly

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gave three handwritten notes to Catherine, Max's sister and maid

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of honor, with instructions to deliver one each day, and

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then he poured out his love, his hopes for their marriage,

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and the dreams he imagined they would share. By the

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time Mags read the final note, just hours before the wedding,

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she was in tears, so emotional that her father worried

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something was wrong, that perhaps she was changing her mind.

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But no, Mag was overwhelmed with happiness, knowing she had

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found her soulmate. After the wedding, the couple bought a

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piece of property in the village of bally Needy, just

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fifteen minutes outside of Limerick, where Jason set about building

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what would become their dream home. Their joy only grew

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with the arrival of children. In September two thousand and four,

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they welcomed their first child, a son named Jack. Two

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years later, in September two thousand and six, their daughter

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Sarah was born, completing their family. For Jason and Magg's

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life felt complete. They had built their dream home in

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bally Needy, Jason's career was flourishing, and their little family,

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first Jack and then baby Sarah, filled the house with

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laughter and love. To friends and family, they seemed inseparable.

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Jason often called Mags his anam kara, his sole friend,

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and the Celtic tradition, the one whose spirit is bound

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to yours for eternity. Their careers, their home, their family.

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Everything seemed to be falling perfectly into place. But life,

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of course, can change in an instant, and just twelve

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weeks after Sarah's birth, tragedy struck. Mags had long battled asthma,

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and the early hours one morning she woke gasping for air.

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Her nebulizer wasn't doing it for her, and she knew

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immediately that something about this attack was different. Panicked, she

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woke Jason. He called for an ambulance, then roused Mag's

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sister Catherine, who had been staying with them temporarily. I'm

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going to die, Mas, whispered to Catherine, clutching her chest

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and pain, I'm going to die. Jason couldn't bear to

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wait for help to reach their house outside of Limerick.

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He bundled Mags into the car, keeping the emergency dispatcher

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on the line as he sped toward a halfway meeting

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point with the ambulance. But before they arrived, Mags slumped

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forward in her seat. Jason pulled over, dragged her from

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the car, and performed CPR on the side of the

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road until paramedics arrived and took over. He followed the

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ambulance to the hospital, desperately hoping Mags would be okay,

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but once there, doctors pulled him aside with the news

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no husband is ever ready to hear. Mags was gone.

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She had died in the ambulance en route. She was

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just thirty one years old. The post mortem determined the

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cause a severe asthma attack that had stopped her heart.

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The pathologists later explained that her heart had been weakened

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a ticking time bomb. He said, the fatal attack could

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have come at any time. That is really devastating.

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Yeah, really really tragic.

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Asthma attacks are so scary because you can have it

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like Mags did her whole life, and you know, you

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don't know how severe the next attack will be.

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Yeah, and I get the sense that they were really,

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really in love with each other. And you know, their

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daughter was only twelve weeks old when this happened, so even,

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you know, more tragic because of that.

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We'll be back after a break.

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Jason was shattered just thirty years old. He was suddenly

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a widower, left to raise a two year old son

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and a twelve week old daughter on his own. At

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Mags's funeral, Jason wrote a farewell note to his wife.

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He knew he couldn't get through it himself, so he

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asked his brother in law, Dave, to read it out loud. Quote,

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to my soulmate and beautiful wife, mag mag You've just

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heard how much I loved you before we got married,

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and it has been a million times better than I

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could ever have dreamed. I know we crammed in so

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much in the little time we had together, but it

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was only a fraction of the life we had planned.

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Jason promised Mags that their children would never forget her. Quote,

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don't worry about the babies. All of us here today,

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family and friends will make sure they always remember how

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great their mommy was. I promise I will stay strong

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for our wonderful kids. And finally, he spoke from the

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deepest part of his heart, quote, you always said I

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was lucky to have you. You were the girl of

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my dreams, and then you became the love of my life.

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Now you are the girl of my dreams again, my

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mag mag I'll love you all of my life. Please

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look in on us from time to time. Love you

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always and forever. In the months that followed, Jason was

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lost without her. Most days, on his lunch break, he

407
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could be found at Maggs's grave, leaning against her headstone,

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reading the newspaper out loud, or updating her on the children.

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That is so sweet, I know, it really is.

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He tried to channel some of his grief into action,

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raising money for the Irish Asthma society in her memory,

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but the happy, go lucky, always smiling Jason, his family

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knew was gone. His children became the only reason he

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kept moving forward. In the aftermath of Maggs's death, Jason

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leaned heavily on family. Mag's sister Catherine stayed with him

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for a while to help with the children. Tracy and

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her husband Dave were constantly by his side, and many

418
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others pitched in as well. But as the months stretched on,

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Jason realized he needed something more permanent. His loved ones

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had their own families and responsibilities, and he didn't want

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to depend on them forever. He tried hiring live in help,

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first one nanny, then another, but neither arrangement lasted long.

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The first two women struggled with English, and Jason worried

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about stability for Jack and Sarah. By two thousand and eight,

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he placed a new ad for an au pair. That

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ad would change everything. It was how Molly Martin's came

427
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:12.000
into his life. Molli Martins was born in nineteen eighty three,

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the second of four children and the only girl in

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a close knit family from Knoxville, Tennessee. Her mother, Sharon,

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held a mathematics degree while her father, Tom, graduated from

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00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.279
Emory University before embarking on a thirty year career with

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the FBI. The first half of his service was spent

433
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in the criminal division, the second half in counter intelligence.

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After retiring from the Bureau, he continued his work in

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national security at the Department of Energy's Oakridge National Laboratory.

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Molly grew up in comfort. The Martin's family home was

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spacious and elegant, six bedrooms, a swimming pool, a sweeping lawn,

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and a broad, multi level deck for entertaining. Today, Zillo

439
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.839
values the house at over a million dollars. It was

440
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.440
a picture of upper middle class stability, the kind of

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place where children seemed destined for bright futures. Much of

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00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.759
what we know about Molly Martin's before she moved to

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Ireland comes from an unusual source. In the years leading

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up to her move, she had a serious boyfriend, eventually

445
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a fiance named Keith McGinn. After their break up, Keith

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wrote a memoir called Turning This Thing Around, published in

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twenty twelve, three years before Jason Corbett's death. To be fair,

448
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the book isn't specifically about Molly. It's Keith's personal account

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of his struggles with depression and anxiety. But in these pages, Molly,

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00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.799
referred to under the pseudonym Mary, plays a central role,

451
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.599
and through his story we get a revealing portrait of

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the woman who would later enter Jason's life. Molly had

453
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.799
dropped out of Clemson University after less than a semester

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and was working a series of jobs, some caring for children.

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When she met Keith online. She struck him immediately as fun, different,

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and when they met in person, stunningly beautiful. Way out

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00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.680
of my league, he later admitted. The two fell in

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love quickly, almost recklessly. Within a month, at Molly's insistence,

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Keith moved into her apartment. She told him she lived

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with bipolar disorder and manic depression, but assured him that

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medication kept things under control. Keith, who battled his own issues,

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felt empathy more than concern. But only weeks later he

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00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.279
saw the other side of her. The vibrant, free spirited

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00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:23.160
woman he'd fallen for slipped into despair. She stopped working,

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spent days in bed or curled up in the bathtub.

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Plagued by migraines, insomnia, and relentless self loathing. She thought

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herself hideous, even as she turned the heads of strangers,

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00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.039
compliments only made her recoil. Their relationship became a cycle

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of highs and crushing lows. Keith wrote that he sometimes

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came home from work not knowing whether Molly would be

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asleep under the weight of her medications or sobbing on

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the bathroom floor talking of ending her life. He says

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he pulled her back from suicide more than once. Still,

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he loved her and wanted desperately to help. In two

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00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.839
thousand and seven, he wrote a poem titled how Can

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00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.240
I Make Happy the Sad Girl? One line read, how

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00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.599
can I convince her? Can I ever make her see?

478
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.319
I'm not going anywhere? But she's running away from me.

479
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.279
Molly began to pin her hopes for happiness on milestones.

480
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.519
If they got engaged, she insisted it would prove his

481
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.839
love and make her feel whole. So Keith proposed, and

482
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.160
for a short time she seemed happier, but soon came

483
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.720
new turmoil. She announced she was pregnant, despite being on

484
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.519
birth control. She wasn't distressed. She loved children and believed

485
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.240
motherhood would fix everything. Keith worried about her heavy regiment

486
00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:37.880
of medications, sometimes as many as sixteen daily prescriptions, plus

487
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:42.519
others as needed. His fears proved justified when she soon miscarried.

488
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.279
The loss plunged her deeper into depression. We'll talk about

489
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:49.920
this a little bit later, but Molly has trouble with

490
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.359
the truth in a lot of ways. She was prone

491
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.680
to making up stories. So I have no way of

492
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.440
knowing if this pregnancy was real or not. But there's

493
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:00.960
certainly when I read this, knowing what we'll get into later,

494
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.920
I certainly had some doubts about it, they'll say. Keith

495
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.759
eventually convinced Molly to admit herself to a psychiatric facility

496
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.599
to reduce her dependence on medication. After four days, she

497
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.559
left unchanged, and then, almost without warning, she told him

498
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:18.200
she wanted to move to Ireland. She saw it as

499
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.640
an escape, a chance to start fresh. She asked Keith

500
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:23.759
to come with her, but he couldn't. They had no

501
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.759
money and he needed his job and his health insurance,

502
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:30.200
so she went alone. She promised she would check in,

503
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.279
but weeks passed without a word. Finally, three weeks after arriving,

504
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.680
Keith received an email. Molly told him she was happy,

505
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.480
apologized for the chaos she had caused in his life

506
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.559
and urged him to move on and find happiness without her.

507
00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:45.559
Wow, why Ireland?

508
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:47.960
I don't know for sure. I think a lot of people,

509
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.559
myself included, view Ireland very romantically. Like it just seems

510
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.480
like if you were looking for a place to get

511
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.240
away and start fresh, it seems like a great place

512
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:56.640
to do that.

513
00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:58.400
I would love to go to Ireland.

514
00:25:58.519 --> 00:25:58.799
Same.

515
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.759
When five year old Molly Martin's answered Jason Zad for

516
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.519
an AWE pair, she presented herself as the perfect candidate.

517
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:10.039
She claimed to be a certified Montessori teacher, a Clemson

518
00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:14.000
University graduate, vetted as a foster parent, and even a

519
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:17.960
near qualifier for the US Olympic swim team. None of

520
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.240
it was true, though Jason and his family wouldn't discover

521
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:22.640
that until much later.

522
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:25.359
Wow. Yeah, it's pretty bold, I'll say.

523
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.240
But she sounds like the perfect candidate, right.

524
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.000
Oh yeah, you would totally look at that on paper

525
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:30.079
and say excellent.

526
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:32.960
Molly arrived in Ireland in March two thousand and eight,

527
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:36.039
flying into Shannon Airport on a one way ticket. She

528
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.319
had no work permit, no visa, none of the paperwork

529
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:43.599
required to live and work legally. Immigration officials quickly flagged

530
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:46.480
the issues and ordered her onto the next flight home.

531
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.599
Jason rushed to the airport to try to intervene, but

532
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.799
the officers wouldn't budge. Molly was placed on a plane

533
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.240
to Boston. From there, she purchased a round trip ticket

534
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:59.440
to Dublin and got back on another plane, and when

535
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.240
she arrived in Ireland the following day, Dublin immigration waved

536
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:06.960
her through without incident, just like that Molly was in.

537
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:09.480
So it was the one way ticket that set them off.

538
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.000
I think it was, But also I think the airport

539
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:14.839
in Limerick is much smaller than Dublin, so it's probably

540
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.759
a little harder to get through those things. But it

541
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.279
is interesting though, I think I don't know if she

542
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.960
just didn't think about it, but you know, you have

543
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.720
to have paperwork to work in another country, you can't

544
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:26.359
just show up.

545
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.519
Almost immediately, she bonded with Jack and baby Sarah. Jason

546
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.519
encouraged her to explore Ireland on her days off to

547
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.480
make friends and feel at home, and little by little,

548
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:39.480
friends and family began to notice a change in Jason himself.

549
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:42.119
He seemed lighter, a touch, more like the man he

550
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.440
had been before losing Mags. Molly struck people as kind, attentive,

551
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.599
and considerate, a welcome presence and a house that had

552
00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.599
carried so much sorrow. But within two months others began

553
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:57.799
to notice something more. Jason and Molly linger together, talking

554
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:01.119
closely off and trailing behind the group. Soon it became

555
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.920
obvious a romance was forming. How much time had passed

556
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.559
between Mags's death and Molly's arrival.

557
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.240
I think it was about a year and a half, okay.

558
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.559
Reactions were mixed. On one hand, everyone wanted Jason to

559
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:18.519
find happiness again after everything he had endured. He deserved it,

560
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.519
but there were also concerns things were moving quickly. Molly

561
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.119
was not just a girlfriend. She was living in his home,

562
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:29.039
caring for his children. It was a complicated situation, and

563
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:32.440
some worried about where it might lead. Before long, though

564
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.000
there was no denying it, Jason and Molly were a couple.

565
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:39.079
It didn't take long before the cracks began to show.

566
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:42.640
Jason was in love, but it was also conflicted. Things

567
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:46.319
were moving quickly, too quickly for his comfort. Molly was

568
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.079
becoming a mother figure to his children, and while part

569
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.000
of him was grateful, another part wasn't ready for that.

570
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.400
He wanted space to sort out his feelings, to separate

571
00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:57.559
his roles as a father from his role as a

572
00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:01.000
romantic partner. In June two thousand and eight, only a

573
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:04.400
month into their romance, Jason suggested Molly return home to

574
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.519
the US for a visit. It would give him a

575
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.519
time to think to slow things down. Molly reluctantly agreed,

576
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:13.119
but instead of giving him the distance he needed, she

577
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:17.160
flooded him with emails and phone calls, pressing for reassurance.

578
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.880
As she wrote in one email, I just want to

579
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.319
be loved back. Neither one of us should live life

580
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.079
with so much doubt. It hurts to carry out, and

581
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.640
it hurts more to know that someone you love doubts you.

582
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:31.240
Jason's reply was gentle but firm. It hurts me too,

583
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:34.200
you know, I just want a normal boy girl relationship.

584
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.200
We should be having fun, getting to know one another,

585
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.319
going on dates, not husband and wife. In another message,

586
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.400
his fears came pouring out. Please know that I miss

587
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:46.839
you and I love you so much, but I am scared,

588
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.440
scared to let go in case I lose someone again,

589
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:52.640
or the kids lose someone again. I couldn't live through it.

590
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.880
My concern is for Jack and Sarah. I've had enough

591
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:58.839
tragedy in their short lives, and while I know they're resilient,

592
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:02.440
I'm nervous about them through anything. Further, I don't want

593
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.720
to lose you, but more so I don't want to

594
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.720
risk Jack and Sarah losing another mother if we don't

595
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:08.200
work out.

596
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.359
I think that email is a really good encapsulation of

597
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:13.359
how he must have been feeling, and I can totally

598
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.720
imagine that it's a really difficult situation asolutely.

599
00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:19.000
We've done enough of these cases and looking at it objectively,

600
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.519
those are pretty big red flags, and it's good that

601
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.599
he took a pause, and it sounds like maybe he

602
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:28.279
should have vented things there By August, Jason relented. He

603
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.000
agreed Molly could return, but on the condition that she

604
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:33.960
find a different job. His friend Lynn, who managed a

605
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:37.240
child care facility, even offered to hire her, but when

606
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.160
Lynn asked Molly to provide her Montessori certification, Molly brushed

607
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.839
her off, saying her credentials wouldn't transfer to Ireland without proof.

608
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.599
Lynn refused to hire her. Mollie never pursued another position,

609
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:52.680
and before long things slid back to the way they

610
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.920
had been before. Over time, Jason's friends and family began

611
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.319
to notice troubling changes. Molly seemed to want Jason all

612
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.240
to herself. She pushed him away from people he had

613
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:05.519
once been close to at social gatherings. If Jason didn't

614
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:09.039
give her enough attention, she might cause a scene, something

615
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:13.079
he came to dread so Mollie. When she returned to Ireland,

616
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:15.480
she moved back into the house with her I believe

617
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.720
so yes, and slowly patterns began to emerge, the same

618
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.119
patterns Keith McGinn had described in his memoir years earlier.

619
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.039
By twenty eleven, Jason's emails to Molly could have been

620
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.039
lifted straight from Keith's book, and one he wrote, is

621
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:31.119
there anything I can do to make you happy? I've

622
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:35.039
done everything, and you still hate yourself, hate yourself, cry

623
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:37.759
in the shower, vomit, curse, shout at me. I feel

624
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.920
so inadequate. Models. I've given you everything in my life,

625
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.519
including me in the kid's hearts, and I know you

626
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:45.720
love us so so much, But in the last three

627
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.240
days you've still done all of the above. Even vacation,

628
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.319
Jason isn't enough anymore. I don't know what to do.

629
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.000
I'm not sure exactly what he means by vacation, Jason.

630
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.880
I can only assume it's just, you know, when he's

631
00:31:58.039 --> 00:31:59.559
relaxed and fun and.

632
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:04.240
Not the weekend Jason. Yeah, probably vacation Jason is kind

633
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:04.880
of hard to say.

634
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:08.480
It's a little tricky. On Valentine's Day twenty ten, nearly

635
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:12.119
two years after Molly first arrived in Ireland, Jason proposed

636
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:13.480
and Molly said yes.

637
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:16.440
I'm a little surprised that he proposed. Yeah.

638
00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:20.279
I mean, I think Jason did love Molly. I also

639
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:25.160
think that he really struggled with separating her from his kids.

640
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.440
I think his kids loved her. They called her mom

641
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.599
after a period of time, and I think he didn't

642
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:33.799
want his kids to lose another mother, right.

643
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.799
I can understand that.

644
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.279
Jason's family wanted to be happy for him, but beneath

645
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:43.000
the congratulations lingered unease. They worried about Molly's volatility, though

646
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:47.319
they reassured themselves she was normal crazy, not dangerous crazy.

647
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.680
What they didn't see were the struggles behind closed doors,

648
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.559
the endless emails filled with doubt, conflict, and Jason's fear

649
00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:58.720
of losing yet another partner. Molly's discontent was constant. She

650
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.640
complained about the house that Jason had built for Mags

651
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:05.400
their dream home, the place that symbolized his first marriage.

652
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.240
Molly said she felt like she was living in Maggs's shadow.

653
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:11.599
It wasn't unreasonable, but the bitterness in how she spoke

654
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:15.359
about it unsettled those around her. Eventually, Jason gave in

655
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:18.759
and put the house on the market. Molly was also homesick.

656
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.119
She told Jason she hated living in Ireland and pushed

657
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.359
hard for a fresh start in America. Jason was open

658
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.640
to the idea. He had fond memories of the United States.

659
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.759
He and Maggs had honeymooned in Boston and New York,

660
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:35.480
and he remembered the trip warmly. And at MPs, a

661
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:39.039
new opportunity had opened up plant manager at their facility

662
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.839
in Lexington, North Carolina, just over four hours from Molly's

663
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:43.960
family in Knoxville.

664
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:46.960
Kind of selfish for Molly to want to move back

665
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:51.079
to the United States when Jason his support system, support

666
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:54.079
system off, his children are all in Ireland.

667
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.880
Yeah, I agree, And she chose to move there to

668
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.440
take the job as his au pair, so yeah, I agree.

669
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:04.319
It seemed like fate. A fresh start close to Molly's

670
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:08.039
family with career growth for Jason, but his sister Tracy

671
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:11.360
noticed something in him when he told her the plan conflict.

672
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:14.039
He admitted that Molly had given him an ultimat him

673
00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.280
moved to the US with her or the relationship was over.

674
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.639
Tracy urged him to seek counseling, even paying for the

675
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:24.239
sessions herself, but in the end Jason agreed to the move.

676
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:28.280
One reason weighed especially heavy. Jack and Sarah now called

677
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.639
Molly Mom. Jason couldn't bear the thought of his children

678
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:35.159
losing another mother figure. The wedding was set for June

679
00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:39.079
twenty eleven in the United States. Afterward, Jason and Molly

680
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.000
would settle in North Carolina, ready to begin what was

681
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.119
supposed to be a brand new life. Three months before

682
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:48.440
the wedding, Molly flew back to the US to handle preparations,

683
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:51.199
while Jason stayed in Ireland to finish out his work

684
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.039
and put things in order. The distance only deepened their problems.

685
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:58.360
The emails they exchanged during this time don't read like

686
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:02.079
messages between a couple excited about their future. Instead, they

687
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.960
sound like two people struggling just to hold it together.

688
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:08.480
In March, Molly wrote, I believed you when you told

689
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.000
me we should try for a child after marrying. I

690
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.480
believe this was exciting for you. I feel so so, so,

691
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.079
so so stupid, ridiculous, ashamed and humiliated for believing in you,

692
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.920
and I will look like an idiot to everyone. A

693
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.199
month later, Jason's frustration spilled onto the page. I won't

694
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:27.440
be able to make a go of it in the

695
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.559
United States under this emotional pressure you're placing on me.

696
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:33.039
You just accused me of things off the cuff when

697
00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:35.639
you have no valid reason for doing so. You bang

698
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:38.440
the phone down. You sound like an emotional wreck. I

699
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:40.840
am moving to your country to be with you. I

700
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.039
need you to be strong for us and not constantly crying,

701
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.760
accusing me of things, banging down phones. You are supposedly

702
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:50.239
getting what you want, and yet you sound more sad

703
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.920
now than ever. You even told me you hate talking

704
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.079
to me because you end up curling up in a ball.

705
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.239
Just weeks before the ceremony, Molly finally disclosed something she

706
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.440
had kept hidden for their entire three year relationship, her

707
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:04.800
history of diagnosed mental health conditions.

708
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:06.320
Are you kidding?

709
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:07.599
I am not kidding.

710
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.880
They lived together and that he never knew nope.

711
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:15.679
Jason was blindsided, upset, yes, but also relieved in a way.

712
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:19.159
It explained some of her volatility, and it seemed to

713
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:21.599
make him all the more determined to stand by her,

714
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.159
to help her to make it work. I think it's

715
00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:26.880
always such a challenge in this type of situation, because

716
00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:29.840
mental illness is an illness, right, it really is. And

717
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:31.840
you want if you love someone, you want to help

718
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.079
them through it. You want to support them, you want

719
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:35.519
to be there for them. But at the same time,

720
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:38.599
there comes a certain point when you got to think

721
00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:39.599
of yourself.

722
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:42.000
Too and your children. Yeah, was she not taking her

723
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.159
meds regularly? Or do you have any idea about that?

724
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.320
I am not really sure. What Jason never knew was.

725
00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:51.119
Around this same time, Molly quietly consulted a divorce lawyer.

726
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.079
She wanted to know her chances of gaining custody of

727
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:57.239
Jack and Sarah if the marriage ended. The lawyer told

728
00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:00.719
her it was unlikely unless the children were old, perhaps

729
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.199
twelve or so, when their preferences could carry weight in court.

730
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.559
Wow, that is wild, it is.

731
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:09.320
It was a troubling glimpse of what might already have

732
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.719
been in Molly's mind even before she walked down the aisle.

733
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:14.760
We'll be back after a break.

734
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.519
Several of Jason's family and friends made the trip to

735
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:29.559
Tennessee for the wedding, arriving days in advance. Molly's parents,

736
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.800
Tom and Sharon hosted a number of events to welcome

737
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.880
their new Irish in laws, including a party at their home.

738
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.679
But in those days leading up to the ceremony, a

739
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:42.639
few more unsettling signs began to emerge. At a party,

740
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:46.239
Jason's sister Tracy noticed that Molly was nowhere to be seen.

741
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.440
When she asked about it, someone explained that Molly wasn't

742
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.519
feeling well. Tracy went to check on her and found

743
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:56.079
her lying in the fetal position crying. Tracy tried to

744
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.039
comfort her, but Molly wouldn't say what was wrong. The

745
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:03.760
encounter left Tracy uneasy. Later that evening, Tom Martin surprised

746
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:07.360
Jason's family with what he framed as a gesture of hospitality,

747
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:11.079
a whitewater rafting trips scheduled for the next morning at

748
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:14.960
eight am. It was the first anyone had heard of it. Tracy,

749
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.840
caught off guard, politely declined, explaining that there weren't prepared

750
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.079
for such an outing and already had plans. From that

751
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:26.679
point on, she said, Tom's demeanor towards Jason's family noticeably changed.

752
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.840
He seemed offended, even hostile, and the Irish guests got

753
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.880
the impression that they were being looked down on. Judged

754
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:37.639
to many, Tom came across as arrogant and dismissive.

755
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.159
Can you imagine that, Like you're at a party and

756
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:43.400
your host is like, hey, good news. Tomorrow morning, eight am.

757
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.880
I got whitewater rafting tickets for us.

758
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.159
I would probably have a hard time with that too.

759
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.760
I think I think most people would. Yeah, that's something

760
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:53.599
you don't just, you.

761
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:56.679
Know, spring on people. At the wedding rehearsal. A couple

762
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:00.079
of days later, the temperature soared above one hundred degrees.

763
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.280
Molly suddenly fainted, but curiously, she collapsed in the only

764
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:08.239
patch of grass in an otherwise rocky area. Tracy noticed

765
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:11.639
several of Molly's relatives roll their eyes as they walked past,

766
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:15.559
as if this was nothing unusual, hardly worth concern.

767
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:19.119
I should say that, you know, most of my sources

768
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:23.400
in this case were books written by Tracy and by Sarah,

769
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.320
the daughter, So some of these stories definitely come off

770
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.159
as sounding a little one sided. If Molly or her

771
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.760
dad had written a book, I definitely would have read

772
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.880
that as well, but they haven't. So just you know,

773
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.880
I feel like I need to explain a little bit

774
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.719
why there's a lot of Molly kind of stories in here.

775
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:43.960
Yeah, it sounds a little insensitive, but it sounds like

776
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:48.679
that was something that Molly. She was just traumatic. Yeah, Individually,

777
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.639
the moments might not have met munch, but taken together,

778
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:55.119
they gave Jason's family an uneasy feeling. This marriage was

779
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:59.039
already showing cracks and the wedding hadn't even happened yet.

780
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.400
But then some one thing that truly alarmed Jason's family

781
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:05.320
and friends came. Just days before the wedding, Jason's best

782
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.559
friend Paul struck up a casual conversation with one of

783
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:12.320
Molly's bridesmaids. At one point, she remarked how romantic it

784
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:16.119
was that Molly was fulfilling Max's final wish. Paul was

785
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.800
taken back. Excuse me, he asked. The bridesmaid explained Mollie

786
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:24.719
had told her that she had been pen pals with Mags.

787
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:28.199
According to Molly, before Mags died, she asked Molly to

788
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.159
look after Jack and Sarah and that's why she had

789
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:35.880
originally gone to Ireland. Paul was stunned. It was an obvious,

790
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:40.559
blatant lie. Another bridesmaid soon revealed a slightly different version

791
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:43.159
of the story. She said that Molly had told her

792
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:45.960
that she had been childhood friends with Mags and she

793
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:50.239
was the children's godmother. She had supposedly traveled to Ireland

794
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:54.800
after Mags died of cancer, another fabrication. Since Maggs had

795
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:58.760
died of an asthma attack. Paul and Jason's sister Tracy

796
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.639
tried to track Jason down to warn him from the

797
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:05.480
whirlwind of wedding preparations. They never had the chance. This

798
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:09.000
wasn't the only time Molly twisted her past. In fact,

799
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.800
lies and exaggerations seemed to follow her everywhere. At a

800
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.400
book club meeting, when another woman shared the news that

801
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.119
she was expecting, Molly launched into an elaborate story about

802
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:23.199
giving birth to Sarah, complete with details of a difficult labor.

803
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:26.800
Several women in the room knew full well that Molly

804
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.199
was not Sarah's biological mother, but that didn't seem to

805
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.960
matter to Molly. Yikes. Back in college, Molly told classmates

806
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.039
that she had a sister named Grace, who had died

807
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.119
of leukemia in childhood. She even kept a photo of

808
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:42.440
a little girl in her dorm room, telling her roommate

809
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.159
it was Grace. Only later did the roommate realize that

810
00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:48.960
the photo of Grace was just the stock picture that

811
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:52.440
came with the frame. Years later, she was still invoking

812
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.920
the same lie. In one email to Jason, after feeling

813
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:59.920
betrayed about something, she wrote, other than my sister's death,

814
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.639
nothing has ever devastated me so much. At various times,

815
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:06.719
she claimed that she had been the editor of a

816
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:10.039
magazine in Ireland, or that she had once served as

817
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:14.559
a foster mother. Each story seemed grander than the last one.

818
00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:17.360
Woman who knew Molly through book club and Bible study

819
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.480
later put it this way quote no one had more

820
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:25.159
life experiences, career paths, borest complike stories than Molly. She

821
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:27.880
could one up any story you told, and she had

822
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.480
experienced it all, even though she was only in her

823
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.679
late twenties. She used her looks and her seemingly well

824
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.199
educated mind to manipulate and create the picture of herself.

825
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:41.400
She wanted others to believe. Her wild stories destroyed her

826
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.880
credibility to a private circle of people. She was the

827
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:49.599
growing joke for all of her outlandish claims. Years later,

828
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:52.159
after Jason's death and all of the events that were

829
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:56.719
going to be talking about, Molly herself admitted to the fabrications.

830
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:00.800
She said, first of all, everybody lies, and anybody who

831
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:03.880
says they don't, they're lying. But if you had to

832
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:06.199
ask me what I am most ashamed of in my life,

833
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.239
it would be the times that I have not been

834
00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:11.760
honest with people. I've said things to make myself sound better,

835
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:14.880
because I'm ashamed of who I am or aspects of

836
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.519
who I am. She would later claim that some of

837
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:21.119
her lies stemmed from Jason's discomfort about how they met.

838
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:23.159
He didn't want people to know that she had been

839
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:25.599
as nanny as she said, so he made up a

840
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:29.000
story and she built a backstory to fit it. But

841
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.400
to those who encountered her, it was clear Molly loved

842
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.880
being the center of attention, and she was willing to

843
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:39.440
reshape reality over and over again to hold that spotlight.

844
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:43.000
Did she ever lie to Jason about things that Jason

845
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:46.079
could crosscheck or did he catch her and lies?

846
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.280
Well, I know that she lied, like when she became

847
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.960
his au pair, right, she lied about having a degree,

848
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.480
about the Olympic swim team, about her Montessori certificate. I'm

849
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:59.559
sure there were other things as well, and I don't

850
00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:02.159
I think in the beginning he didn't check those things,

851
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:04.559
or didn't feel the need to check those things. I

852
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.880
think over time he probably caught on. I'm not sure

853
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.639
if I have any specific examples in the story where

854
00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:12.920
he did catch her or went back and did some research,

855
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.719
but I'm sure he must have realized after a while

856
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:19.039
that she was prone to lies and exaggeration.

857
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.039
Yeah, because when they met, she was twenty five, and

858
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.000
she already had like kind of a rich history for

859
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:24.960
someone that young.

860
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:30.559
Right. The wedding ceremony itself went smoothly, beautiful, traditional, exactly

861
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.920
what Jason and Molly had planned, but the reception told

862
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:37.480
a different story. At the children's table, Tracy and Dave's

863
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:41.519
young son, Adam, sat quietly, looking miserable. Molly's maid of

864
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:45.280
honor and longtime friend Susie noticed and asked what was wrong.

865
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.800
Adam explained that because of food allergies, he couldn't eat

866
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:52.119
anything that had been served. Susie tried the kitchen, but

867
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.719
it was already closed. Thinking fast, she remembered seeing the

868
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.199
McDonald's nearby. She asked Adam if a happy meal might

869
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.599
cheer him up. His face lit up. Susie slipped out,

870
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:05.519
returned with the meal, and handed it to the grateful boy.

871
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.920
But when Molly spotted Adam crossing the reception hall with

872
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:12.519
the McDonald's cup in hand, she exploded in front of

873
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.559
the entire room. She screamed at Adam's father, Dave, who

874
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:18.320
had no idea what she was talking about. Do you

875
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:23.000
know how much this wedding cost? You've ruined my wedding? Dave, blindsided,

876
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:26.199
stood his ground. He told her two people got married

877
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.840
here today, not just one, and you paid for nothing.

878
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.920
Mollie stormed off upstairs, where a bridesmaid later found her

879
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.920
lying on a sofa, punching and kicking pillows like a

880
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:39.239
child in the throes of a tantrum. She also lashed

881
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:41.760
out at her maid of honor, Susie, the person who

882
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:45.360
had helped Adam. Humiliated. Susie and her family left the

883
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:49.199
reception early the next day, Tracy called Susie to thank

884
00:45:49.239 --> 00:45:52.199
her for her kindness to Adam and to apologize for

885
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.920
the drama that it had caused. Susie confided that Molly

886
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:58.840
had been bad mouthing Jason's family all week and that

887
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.480
she was finished with my Dolly altogether. As the reception

888
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:05.639
wound down, Molly waited in the limo for her new husband.

889
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:09.679
Jason lingered inside, where his best friend Paul pulled him aside.

890
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:13.159
Paul told him, you're the unhappiest married man I've ever

891
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.480
seen on his wedding day. You don't have to get

892
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:18.360
in that car. You can walk away, get on a plane,

893
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:22.480
go home. But Jason shook his head. No, I've made

894
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.199
a commitment and I can't take a second mother away

895
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:25.960
from the children.

896
00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:29.559
That sounds like that's a reoccurring theme for Jason. He

897
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:31.920
really wanted his children to have a mother.

898
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:36.079
Yeah, for sure. After the wedding, Jason, Molly, Jack and

899
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:39.159
Sarah settled into their new life at North Carolina. They

900
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:41.719
purchased a four hundred thousand dollars home in a gated

901
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:45.639
community outside Winston Salem, paying cash from the sale of

902
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.599
Jason's house in Ireland. Jason gave Molly eighty thousand dollars

903
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.840
to furnish it. However, she liked the neighborhood was warm

904
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:56.400
and welcoming and Overtime, the couple formed friendships with many

905
00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:59.840
of their new neighbors. Jason thrived in his role managing

906
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:03.159
the MPs plant, nearly doubling their profits over the next

907
00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.519
four years. The children, seven and five at the time,

908
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:10.440
adjusted quickly. They loved the big house, the spacious yard,

909
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:13.440
and the chance to make new friends. Jack and Sarah

910
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:17.440
joined activities in sports, settling happily into their new routines.

911
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:20.840
Molly picked up a part time job as a swim instructor,

912
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:23.199
but spent most of her time at home being a

913
00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:26.119
mother to the children. On the surface, it looked like

914
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:29.440
a fresh start, but just beneath the surface, tensions were

915
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:33.519
already simmering. Only four months after the wedding, Molly quietly

916
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:37.119
visited a divorce attorney in North Carolina. She wasn't ready

917
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.519
to leave Jason, but she wanted to know her rights

918
00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:42.800
if she did. The attorney was blunt because Jack and

919
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:46.800
Sarah were Jason's biological children and Molly hadn't adopted them.

920
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.199
Custody would remain solely with Jason in the event of

921
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:53.440
a divorce. Now the sun similar earlier. I mentioned she

922
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.760
saw a divorce attorney before the marriage. I believe that

923
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:00.599
these were two different events, but I wonder if they

924
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.199
got conflated as well, if maybe the timing was off,

925
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.920
So it may have just been one. It may have

926
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:08.440
happened either right before or right after the marriage, But

927
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.880
in any case, very early on in the marriage, or

928
00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:16.840
even before the marriage, Molly was already thinking about Yeah, well,

929
00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:19.800
not of always out, but would the children? Would she

930
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.039
be able to get the children if they did end

931
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.480
up splitting up? Adoption had been a fraught topic from

932
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:28.840
the beginning. Molly and her father claimed that Jason had

933
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.719
promised that she would adopt the children after their marriage,

934
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:35.440
but he never followed through. Perhaps his growing doubts about

935
00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:39.920
Molly's behavior gave him pause. Emails discovered after Jason's death

936
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:44.280
suggest that he did explore the possibility. In November twenty twelve,

937
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:46.800
he wrote to a law firm quote, I have been

938
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.000
married to Molly for just over a year now and

939
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:52.119
we live in Forsyth County. Is it possible to structure

940
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.039
an adoption such that if I ever get divorced, not

941
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:57.880
planning to that, the right to keep the children is

942
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:00.719
with me over Molly, what would you need from me

943
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:04.840
if we were to proceed? Whatever advice he received, Jason

944
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:08.400
never moved forward with adoption. His fear that Mollie might

945
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:10.800
one day try to take the children seemed to weigh

946
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:13.639
heavily on him, even went so far as to keep

947
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:18.079
Jack and Sarah's passports hidden away from the family home. Molly,

948
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.760
for her part, would later insist the refusal was a

949
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.320
form of control. In her view, Jason held the adoption

950
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:27.280
over her head as a threat, a reminder that if

951
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:30.239
their marriage ended, she could lose the children that she

952
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:31.760
had been raising as her own.

953
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:35.440
In the final months of Jason's life, Molly began painting

954
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.679
a disturbing picture of her husband to friends and neighbors.

955
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.920
She claimed Jason was a drunk, that he neglected the children,

956
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.360
and that he was abusive. She even showed people bruises,

957
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:49.039
she said reproof of the abuse. Roughly seven months before

958
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:52.480
Jason's death, Mollie sought legal advice from a family law

959
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:56.039
attorney who also happened to be a neighbor. She told

960
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:58.920
the lawyer that she was considering divorce, but she didn't

961
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:01.800
want to leave without custom of Jack and Sarah. The

962
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:05.519
attorney told her bluntly, if she wanted custody, she would

963
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.280
need evidence that Jason was a domestic abuser, an alcoholic,

964
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:13.159
and a danger to his children. Soon after, Molly began

965
00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:17.320
hiding small, voice activated recording devices around the house and

966
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:20.800
even in Jason's car, apparently trying to capture him losing

967
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.760
his temper. The district attorney later estimated that she recorded

968
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:28.159
more than one hundred and fifty hours of audio, but

969
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:33.039
when prosecutors requested the tapes, Molly turned over only three hours.

970
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:36.079
Here's one of the few clips that ever surfaced.

971
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.480
Could I have dinner with the kids. That's what I

972
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.719
asked you, but you ignored it.

973
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:42.519
I went anyway, Now, I was on the phone with

974
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.440
you ten minutes ago and I said, I'm gonna make

975
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:44.840
some soup.

976
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:45.559
Do you want something?

977
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:47.440
He said no? They said no, because of how we're

978
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.920
going to offend it together? Is you just do this

979
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:51.960
is not what you wanted to do.

980
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.599
I said, I'm making soup for the kids.

981
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.320
Do you want something?

982
00:50:56.360 --> 00:50:59.159
The reason why I said no is because you ignored I.

983
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:00.000
Didn't ignore anything.

984
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:01.119
You forgot what I'm gonna asked.

985
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:01.920
You couldn't care less.

986
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:05.800
I said I'd like temp dinner with my family. That's

987
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:06.960
what I said to you.

988
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.320
You decided to stop hanging up the banister please and

989
00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:10.000
go up to your room.

990
00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:15.679
Well, don't up to now here, please, don't you can

991
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:16.320
stay there? Please?

992
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:17.800
Can you look at me?

993
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:19.440
Can you have some respect? I asked you to have

994
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:21.840
dinner with my family. You said you were feeding the kids.

995
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.800
That's why I said no, because you ignored by that.

996
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:24.960
There about dinner my family.

997
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:25.800
Go and sit down.

998
00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:28.000
Who cares what he says? Don't send them out of

999
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.840
the room again when I'm talking, you don't have.

1000
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.280
The right pancake Tuesday? Why don't I make some pancakes?

1001
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:35.679
I asked you over and over again.

1002
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:37.039
You made it very clear you want to try to

1003
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:37.519
separate me.

1004
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:38.679
I'm like, no, I don't want to.

1005
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:45.159
I'm gonna I shouldn't have to see it over and over.

1006
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:46.079
I shouldn't have to see them.

1007
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:47.519
Molly, can you guys get have the stuff for pand

1008
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:51.280
I'm here. You won't get on and you're still gonna

1009
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:59.840
talking about some girls. She just got scared a bit.

1010
00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.440
So those were all clips from the same argument, but

1011
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.480
there was They're a little bit choppy because that was

1012
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:10.880
all that I was able to find from different sources.

1013
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:14.760
Jason can be heard saying you made it very clear.

1014
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:17.159
You want to try to separate me from my kids,

1015
00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:19.800
I'm going to do the same to you. The difference

1016
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:22.440
is I will be able to do it to Molly.

1017
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:25.800
This was proof that Jason was controlling using the children

1018
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.599
as leverage, but Jason's family saw it differently. They believed

1019
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:32.639
Molly was goading him into fights, hoping to catch something

1020
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.840
incriminating on tape. In fact, Sarah later explained the backstory

1021
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:41.039
to this particular clip. It was pancake Tuesday, the Irish

1022
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:44.280
version of fat Tuesday, and Jason had wanted to share

1023
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.599
the tradition with his kids. He called Molly about dinner,

1024
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:50.239
but when he came home, she had already fed them.

1025
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:54.119
Frustrated after a long day of work, he snapped. Molly

1026
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:56.840
later claimed the loud bang on the tape was Jason

1027
00:52:56.920 --> 00:53:00.639
pounding his fists on the table. Sarah insisted it was

1028
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:04.599
his chair falling as he stood, and then the unedited recording,

1029
00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.400
Jack can be heard saying, Dad, be careful, they're one

1030
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:08.559
hundred dollars chairs.

1031
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:10.880
So before we go any further, what do you what

1032
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:13.000
do you make of that recording? Like, what do you hear?

1033
00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:16.480
Does it sound like Jason's potentially abusive.

1034
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:19.760
Well, first of all, the little kids with their Irish

1035
00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:21.119
accents is adorable.

1036
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:24.199
Yeah, it's also heartbreaking that they're that they're.

1037
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:28.360
They're witnessing the argument. Yeah, I mean he sounded very angry,

1038
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:32.480
but it sound it escalated. He's sounded very calm in

1039
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.119
the beginning. He was trying to have a calm argument

1040
00:53:35.159 --> 00:53:37.079
because I think he knew the kids were listening. But

1041
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.840
then he just kind of lost it. But I mean,

1042
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.679
it didn't sound like he was being abusive. He was

1043
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:43.880
just angry.

1044
00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:45.440
That's how I took it. When I first heard it,

1045
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:47.719
I thought, oh boy, that's that sounds bad. But then

1046
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:49.840
as I listened to it again, it didn't sound that

1047
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.679
different from what could be considered a normal, you know,

1048
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:57.480
marital argument. I mean, yeah, definitely escalated, and the banging

1049
00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.559
sound was a little shocking, But if it really was

1050
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.719
just the falling, you know, it's still that didn't sound great.

1051
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:04.920
But I think one thing to keep in mind is

1052
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:07.159
that if there really were like one hundred and fifty

1053
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:10.079
hours of recording, and this is the worst that Molly

1054
00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:11.880
could come up with, because she was in control of

1055
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:15.119
the recordings, she made them, so she decided what to

1056
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:17.280
share and what not to share. So if this is

1057
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:20.079
the worst of it, it doesn't seem like it's out of.

1058
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.280
There are three hours that she released them.

1059
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:24.480
Yeah, and I never found any others that I had

1060
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:26.639
never heard anymore. So yeah, I wish I could.

1061
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.719
About a month before his death, Jason discovered one of

1062
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:32.960
the recording devices hidden in his car. He founded thanks

1063
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.360
to Jack, who was helping clean the car. Jason confronted

1064
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:40.360
Molly about it, and that argument, too, was recorded. That's

1065
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:43.480
such an invasion of someone's privacy. I know I would.

1066
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.599
I think that's unforgivable. Yes, Jason's family believes Molly's ultimate

1067
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:51.119
goal was clear. She wanted the children for herself, and

1068
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:54.280
to get there, she waged a month long, even years

1069
00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:58.760
long campaign to tear Jason down. Emails show her tactics.

1070
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:01.480
At times, she did de liberately gave Jason the wrong

1071
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.880
start times for the kids' sporting events so he would

1072
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:07.760
miss them. She would then tell the children that their

1073
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:11.239
father hadn't bothered to show up. Frustrated, Jason sent an

1074
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:14.559
email to Molly in her capacity as a swim team coach.

1075
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.679
He wrote, going forward as a swim team parent who

1076
00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.639
helps pay for our kids to attend. I would like

1077
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.559
to be included in correspondence so I know what is

1078
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:27.320
going on with the team. My wife does not tell me.

1079
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:30.400
I have asked you to communicate prior to this, and

1080
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.679
it is with great sadness that I now have to

1081
00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:36.559
resort to email for communication regarding our kids. I would

1082
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:39.320
also like to be included in school events. It was

1083
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:42.280
brought to my attention the other day about upcoming events

1084
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.840
regarding fathers. That was also kept for me for some reason.

1085
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:48.119
I would just like to know what is going on,

1086
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:50.719
and since you will not or forget to tell me,

1087
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:53.760
maybe copying me on an email might help.

1088
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:54.360
So.

1089
00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:56.599
In the years since, both Jack and Sarah, who were

1090
00:55:56.719 --> 00:55:59.920
nearly eleven and nine when their father died, have corroborated

1091
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:03.159
many of these claims. They said that Molly sometimes created

1092
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:06.559
bruises on herself then showed them to friends as supposed

1093
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:08.159
proof that Jason.

1094
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:08.440
Had heard her.

1095
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:12.000
One reason I recommend watching the documentary is because Jack

1096
00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:15.239
and Sarah are both interviewed in the documentary, and it's

1097
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:18.519
really interesting to see them and hear them talk about

1098
00:56:18.519 --> 00:56:21.400
different things. Because they were pretty young when Jason died,

1099
00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:23.760
and I think, you know, you could argue that they

1100
00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:28.000
either didn't remember something directly or their memories changed over time.

1101
00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:30.519
And I think, you know, those are really good questions.

1102
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:33.000
But I do think watching them in the documentary, you

1103
00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:37.000
get a sense of kind of their perspective on things, So.

1104
00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:39.480
You believe that they had clear memories of what happened.

1105
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.000
They seem to, Yes, they seem to have very clear memories.

1106
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:45.679
In the months leading up to his death, Jason began

1107
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.719
quietly laying plans of his own. About a year before

1108
00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:51.320
he was killed, he confided to his sister Tracy that

1109
00:56:51.400 --> 00:56:54.519
he was thinking of returning to Ireland with Jack and Sarah,

1110
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.280
but without Molly. He told her it would take time,

1111
00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:01.199
that he would need to be extremely careful. A few

1112
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:03.519
weeks before his death, Jason called his best friend Paul

1113
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:06.039
in Ireland. He told him outright that he was planning

1114
00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:08.519
to leave Molly and bring the children home, but he

1115
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:12.320
would have to arrange everything in secret. Tom Martin's had

1116
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.719
convinced him that Molly had equal parental rights in the US.

1117
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.199
Jason worried that she might block him from taking the kids.

1118
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.159
Jason said, I would need to be on a plane

1119
00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:25.440
before the Martins even knew I had left the call

1120
00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:28.320
with Paul took place while Jason was driving. By then,

1121
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:31.159
he had already discovered and removed one of Molly's recording

1122
00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:34.880
devices from his car. But it raises an unsettling question

1123
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:39.039
had she planned another, and if so, was she tipped

1124
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:41.559
off to his plans. What we do know is that

1125
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.239
less than twenty four hours before his death, Jason was

1126
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:48.280
actively searching flights back to Ireland on Expedia. Both Jack

1127
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:51.440
and Sarah later recalled seeing him scrolling through the flight

1128
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:55.440
options on his laptop. Sarah also remembered spotting the children's

1129
00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:58.480
passports sitting on his night stand under a book, and

1130
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:01.360
thought Mollie may have seen them. Jack said he noticed

1131
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:04.559
a packed suitcase sitting beside his father's bed that same night.

1132
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.079
I read a number of different things about Jason's plans

1133
00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:10.400
to leave for Ireland. One source I read said that

1134
00:58:10.599 --> 00:58:12.960
he planned to leave on August twenty first, which is

1135
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:15.679
a very specific date, and that he had sought to

1136
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:19.039
transfer sixty thousand dollars from his bank in North Carolina

1137
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:21.360
to one in Ireland. The source that I read didn't

1138
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:23.719
say how they knew that, so I didn't say it

1139
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.599
in here. But we do know that Jason hadn't purchased

1140
00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:29.199
plane tickets yet, but it seems clear that he was

1141
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:31.519
at least planning to move back to Ireland.

1142
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:34.559
Just a day before his death, Jason and Mally attended

1143
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:38.480
a neighborhood party. They played cornhole with friends, but witnesses

1144
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:42.920
recalled Molly belittling him loudly, calling him a fat ass

1145
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.239
and joking that he must have robbed his twin brother

1146
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:47.599
of nutrition in the womb because he looked like he

1147
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:51.159
had eaten for two Wow. That's really mean, very mean.

1148
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:54.360
Jason left the party early that night. He posted a

1149
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:57.679
short message on Facebook. It read, people will question all

1150
00:58:57.679 --> 00:58:59.800
the good things they hear about you, but believe all

1151
00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:03.559
the bad without a second thought. We'll be back after

1152
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:04.440
a break.

1153
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:15.079
That brings us to August first, twenty fifteen, the last

1154
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:18.719
day of Jason Corbett's life. That morning, Tom and Sharon

1155
00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:21.760
Martin's decided, seemingly on a whim, to make the four

1156
00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:25.440
hour drive from Tennessee to North Carolina. Tom would later

1157
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:27.800
say they woke up, had nothing to do and thought

1158
00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:29.719
it was a beautiful day for a visit with Molly

1159
00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:33.000
and the kids. Before leaving, he grabbed two old sporting

1160
00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:36.119
items from home an aluminum baseball bat and a tennis

1161
00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:39.440
racket once used by his own children, gifts for Jack

1162
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:42.239
and Sarah. Throughout the day, Tom and Molly were in

1163
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.679
frequent contact. Phone records show thirteen calls between them starting

1164
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:50.199
at two twenty one PM, and twelve more between Molly

1165
00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:53.920
and her mother. Why so many calls? That's never been explained.

1166
00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:56.800
I don't know if that was normal for them or not,

1167
00:59:56.960 --> 00:59:59.000
but really, I mean thirteen calls.

1168
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:02.480
Yeah, Molly was on the phone twenty five times.

1169
01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:04.840
Right with her mom and dad that day. The Martins

1170
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:08.400
arrived shortly after eight pm. Jason and a neighbor were

1171
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.400
sitting in the driveway sharing a beer, a weekend tradition

1172
01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:15.239
after mowing their lawns. Molly and the neighbor's wife joined them.

1173
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:20.159
Tom would later claim Jason was obviously drunk. Later, Molly

1174
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:24.400
ordered Domino's pizza and mixed mohitos for the adults. Jack

1175
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:27.559
left for a birthday party and came home around eleven PM.

1176
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:31.440
By then, the household had settled in. Jason, Molly, Sarah,

1177
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:34.639
and the Martins ate pizza, and according to Tom and Molly,

1178
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:39.440
the evening passed without incident, no arguments, no fights, As

1179
01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:42.039
it got late, Tom and Charon went downstairs to the

1180
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:45.360
guest space known as the Blue Room, directly beneath the

1181
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:49.159
primary bedroom. Tom left the baseball bat and tennis racket

1182
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:51.440
in the Blue Room for the night, planning to give

1183
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:54.599
them to the children in the morning. Here's what happened next.

1184
01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:58.760
According to Tom and Molly, sometime after midnight, Sarah awoke

1185
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.840
from a nightmare. She imagined the fairies on her bed

1186
01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:06.119
sheets had turned into spiders and lizards. Frightened, she ran

1187
01:01:06.199 --> 01:01:09.719
to her parents' bedroom. Molly later said she took Sarah

1188
01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:12.079
back to her room and stripped off the bed sheets,

1189
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:16.599
but Jason, awakened, became angry, and a violent fight erupted.

1190
01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:19.719
Molly claimed that Jason grabbed her by the throat and

1191
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:22.800
began choking her. When he loosened his grip for a moment,

1192
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:26.920
she screamed now. Sarah later recalled this nightmare in her book,

1193
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:29.559
but her memory of what happened next was different. She

1194
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:32.320
said that on nights when she was scared, she would

1195
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:35.079
usually be allowed to crawl into bed between her parents,

1196
01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.000
but this time, she said that her mother intercepted her

1197
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:41.119
at the door. She remembered seeing her father asleep in

1198
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:44.360
bed undisturbed. But again keep in mind that Sarah was

1199
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:46.840
nine years old and this was something that happened in

1200
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.800
the middle of the night when she woke up. Downstairs,

1201
01:01:49.840 --> 01:01:53.239
Tom claimed that he woke to loud thumps, raised voices,

1202
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.519
and then a scream. He grabbed the aluminum baseball bat

1203
01:01:56.519 --> 01:01:59.199
that he had brought for Jack, and, wearing only boxer

1204
01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:03.000
shorts and a gull shirt, he ran upstairs. According to Tom,

1205
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:05.639
he found Jason in the bedroom with his hands around

1206
01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:09.760
Molly's neck. Seven or eight feet inside the doorway. Tom

1207
01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:13.400
shouted for Jason to let her go. Jason's reply, I'm

1208
01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:16.639
going to kill her. Tom repeated the command, but Jason

1209
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:21.639
repeated the threat. Tom said that Jason began edging backwards

1210
01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:24.760
toward the bathroom, his arms still locked around Molly's neck.

1211
01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:28.559
Fearing that Jason might shut himself inside with her, Tom

1212
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:32.960
stepped forward and swung the bat, struck Jason's head. Tom

1213
01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:37.280
later claimed the blow only enraged Jason further. He swung again.

1214
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:41.480
This time, Jason wrestled the bat away, knocking Tom across

1215
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:45.119
the room, but Tom said he somehow scrambled up, charged

1216
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:48.800
Jason and wrenched the bat back From there the details

1217
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:52.639
grow murkier. Tom would describe it simply as a Donnybrook,

1218
01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:57.000
a chaotic brawl. Molly too joined the fray, at one point,

1219
01:02:57.039 --> 01:03:00.960
grabbing a paving brick from her bedside table. Why she

1220
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:03.480
had a paving brick beside her bed is something we

1221
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:06.320
will come back to in a minute. Tom, however, insisted

1222
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:10.000
he never saw her strike Jason, and what of Sharon

1223
01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.920
Martin's According to her, she briefly woke when Tom went upstairs,

1224
01:03:14.239 --> 01:03:17.079
but then went back to sleep. She said she somehow

1225
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:20.960
slept through the entire violent struggle that followed. The children, too,

1226
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:22.599
were said to have slept through it all.

1227
01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:24.840
Wow. Interesting.

1228
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.079
According to Tom, the moment that he was sure that

1229
01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:31.239
Jason was incapacitated, he reached for the phone and dialed

1230
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.480
nine to one to one. The call lasted for fourteen minutes.

1231
01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:36.400
We're not going to play at all here, but I

1232
01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:38.960
did want to share just a few key moments. Here

1233
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:42.039
is the opening of the call, Vidson County.

1234
01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:45.599
Now when one want to steer margesty, my name is

1235
01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:50.360
Tom Martin. I meant one sixty Panther Creek Court and

1236
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:57.079
we need help. Okay, what's going on there? My daughter's husband,

1237
01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:01.760
my son in law. He's gotten a fight with my daughter.

1238
01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:08.039
I intervened, and I think he's in bad shape. We

1239
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:11.199
need hill. Okay, what do you mean he's in bad shape?

1240
01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:13.800
He's heard he's leading all over and I may have

1241
01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:14.320
killed him.

1242
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.280
He sounds like towman's having another day at the office,

1243
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.760
doesn't it like he see he sounds so. I know

1244
01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:22.920
he's an FBI agent, so maybe he's, you know, trained

1245
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.360
to remain calm in situation.

1246
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:27.480
But that's what I was thinking, Like he said, I

1247
01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:30.840
was like, well, he really sunds very calm. Yeah, but

1248
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:33.760
I mean he is an FBI agent, so we have

1249
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:34.559
to remember that.

1250
01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:38.119
A couple of minutes into the call, the dispatcher asked Tom,

1251
01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:39.000
what had happened?

1252
01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:42.920
All right? Coming, what happened? Did you hit him in

1253
01:04:42.920 --> 01:04:45.119
the head or hit him in the head with what

1254
01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:48.719
with a baseball bat? With a baseball bat? Yes, ma'am.

1255
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.079
He was choking. He was choking my daughter. He said,

1256
01:04:52.079 --> 01:04:52.880
I'm going to kill her.

1257
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:55.719
Well, there we have the over explaining by the nine

1258
01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:57.880
one one collar, which is always a bad sign.

1259
01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:01.760
Right from there, the operator calmly walked Tom and Molly

1260
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:05.320
through CPR. She counted out the rhythm two beats per second,

1261
01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:08.559
urging them to keep going until help arrived. She told

1262
01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:10.760
them to switch off when they grew tired to keep

1263
01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:13.880
Jason's heart pumping. About ten minutes into the call, the

1264
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:17.400
dispatcher addressed Molly directly, two Night.

1265
01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:27.239
Mollie, I listened to one two four four one two

1266
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:29.760
four wine two.

1267
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.400
At the end of the fourteen minutes, paramedics finally arrived

1268
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:36.400
and took over, but almost immediately they could tell there

1269
01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:39.239
was nothing left to be done. Jason Corbett was dead.

1270
01:05:39.639 --> 01:05:42.920
He was just thirty nine years old. When paramedics and

1271
01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:46.880
police arrived, the scene was bloody and chaotic. Blood was everywhere,

1272
01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:50.239
spattered across the walls and the floor, smeared on the

1273
01:05:50.239 --> 01:05:54.280
blinds and the dresser, staining the mattress and even the lampshade.

1274
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:58.039
Drops trailed into the hallway and the bathroom. A vacuum

1275
01:05:58.039 --> 01:06:01.480
cleaner had blood on it too. In the walls. Investigators

1276
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:04.519
later noted indentations that appeared to have been made by

1277
01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:07.840
the bat or by the brick. Jason lay naked on

1278
01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:11.360
the bedroom floor. His face and chest were streaked with dried,

1279
01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:14.679
flaking blood. When a paramedic tried to tilt his head

1280
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.599
back to intubate him. He realized immediately the back of

1281
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:22.639
Jason's skull was crushed there was no possibility of saving him. Upstairs,

1282
01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.679
his children slept through it all. Police carried Jack and

1283
01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:28.840
Sarah from their rooms, shielding their faces from the horror

1284
01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:32.159
as they brought them downstairs. They asked Sharon Martin's to

1285
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:35.599
look after them. At first glance, the bloodied bedroom might

1286
01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:38.760
have seemed to fit Tom's account of a donnybrook a

1287
01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:44.599
desperate struggle, but investigators quickly noticed troubling inconsistencies. First of all,

1288
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:48.559
timing paramedics said that Jason's body was already cool to

1289
01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:51.519
the touch. If Tom had really called nine one one

1290
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.440
the moment that Jason was subdued, and if help had

1291
01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:58.039
arrived only fourteen minutes later, shouldn't his body still have

1292
01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:01.400
been warm. Similarly, much of the blood in the room

1293
01:07:01.519 --> 01:07:05.039
was already dried or congealed, suggesting that Jason may have

1294
01:07:05.079 --> 01:07:09.719
died earlier than claimed. Second was the injuries. Jason's wounds

1295
01:07:09.719 --> 01:07:12.400
were concentrated on the back of his head, a fact

1296
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:15.960
confirmed later in the autopsy. But Tom's story had been

1297
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:18.960
that he was facing Jason, who was holding Molly in

1298
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:21.719
front of him. How then, were nearly all of the

1299
01:07:21.719 --> 01:07:27.039
blows delivered from behind Next the blood spatter, some stains

1300
01:07:27.039 --> 01:07:29.960
and indentations on the wall were only six inches above

1301
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:33.480
the floor, consistent with Jason being struck as he was

1302
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:37.239
falling or after he was already down. Blood on the

1303
01:07:37.239 --> 01:07:40.800
inside of the bedroom door raised another question. Had some

1304
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:44.800
blows been delivered before Tom entered. Tom would later say

1305
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:47.320
that he closed the door behind him after he entered

1306
01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:51.159
the room, though it's unclear if that explanation came before

1307
01:07:51.400 --> 01:07:53.840
or after. Police pointed out the blood on the back

1308
01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:57.719
of the door. Next to Tom's clothing. His boxer shorts

1309
01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:01.360
had blood spatter inside the lower hemp, suggesting that he

1310
01:08:01.400 --> 01:08:04.880
had swung the bat downward at close range while standing

1311
01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:09.880
over Jason. Lastly, the injuries or lack thereof. Despite the

1312
01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:13.559
supposed life and death struggle, neither Tom nor Molly had

1313
01:08:13.599 --> 01:08:16.720
so much as a scratch. Molly complained of neck pain

1314
01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:20.399
and nausea, saying that Jason had strangled her, but photos

1315
01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:22.760
showed only a faint red mark at the front of

1316
01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:26.279
her neck, barely even visible. Officers even had to tell

1317
01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.039
her to stop tugging and pulling at her throat, as

1318
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.079
if she were trying to create an injury. Later, they

1319
01:08:32.119 --> 01:08:35.640
found and photographed another red mark under her ear. Her

1320
01:08:35.640 --> 01:08:39.960
attorneys would claim it was a fingernail scratch, consistent with strangulation,

1321
01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:44.680
but still no bruising, no torn clothing, no defensive injuries

1322
01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:49.319
on either Tom or Molly. Molly's delicate bracelet remained perfectly intact.

1323
01:08:49.600 --> 01:08:52.920
Her pajamas were unstretched. Even with a bat and a

1324
01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:56.000
paving stone, could a sixty seven year old man and

1325
01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:59.199
a petite, thirty two year old woman truly subdue a

1326
01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:02.000
two hundred fifty pound man without so much as a

1327
01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:05.840
bruise in return? And then there was Sharon Martin's. She

1328
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:08.479
admitted that she woke when Tom grabbed the bat and

1329
01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:12.000
ran upstairs after hearing screams, but then she said she

1330
01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:14.640
simply rolled over and went back to sleep. She never

1331
01:09:14.680 --> 01:09:17.640
called nine one one, she never went upstairs to see

1332
01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:22.520
what was happening. For investigators, it strained all credibility. The

1333
01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:24.760
scene told a story, but not the one that Tom

1334
01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:28.760
and Molly were telling. The story about Sharon I think

1335
01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:31.800
is just baffling to me, Like if you and I

1336
01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:34.800
were sleeping in the basement of our daughter's home and

1337
01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:38.079
we wake up, we hear a scream. I grab a

1338
01:09:38.119 --> 01:09:40.319
bat and run upstairs. Are you just gonna roll over

1339
01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:41.159
and go back to bed?

1340
01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:41.800
Oh?

1341
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:44.439
Probably not. I don't know. I think that I might

1342
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:47.840
be the one that grabs the baseball back. You don't

1343
01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:50.600
wake up very quickly, so you might still be sleeping.

1344
01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:54.680
I would roll over right, got this? That could be.

1345
01:09:55.399 --> 01:09:58.399
After the bloody scene was processed, both Tom and Molly

1346
01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:01.279
were taken to the police station for questioning. They were

1347
01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:05.079
interviewed separately, but their stories lined up almost perfectly except

1348
01:10:05.119 --> 01:10:08.520
for one detail. Tom insisted he never saw Molly hit

1349
01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:11.479
Jason with the paving brick. As for why she had

1350
01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:13.720
a paving brick on her nightstand in the first place,

1351
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:16.880
Molly told investigators that she and the children had been

1352
01:10:16.920 --> 01:10:20.079
planning to paint bricks to place around the mailbox.

1353
01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:24.680
That doesn't make sense, No, it really doesn't. They're planning

1354
01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:27.600
on painting the bricks, but you only have one on

1355
01:10:27.640 --> 01:10:29.000
your night yeah.

1356
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:31.199
And why is it in your bedroom? We'll talk about

1357
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:33.720
it making part two. But whenever they did arts and crafts,

1358
01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:35.760
it was in the kitchen, So why in.

1359
01:10:35.720 --> 01:10:38.600
The bedroom when a brick is really hard to paint too.

1360
01:10:39.279 --> 01:10:42.840
Yeah, that part I don't doubt because other neighbors had

1361
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:45.239
done the same thing, and I guess they were planning

1362
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:47.720
to do that, so I think it was their plan

1363
01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:50.520
to do that. But why there was one brick in

1364
01:10:50.560 --> 01:10:53.560
the bedroom doesn't make a lot of sense. Tom with

1365
01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:56.920
thirty years in the FBI, knew what an interrogation looked

1366
01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:59.239
like and how to handle one. On the nine to

1367
01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:02.680
one one call, he had sounded steady, almost detached. In

1368
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:05.840
the interview room, he was the same calm, collected and

1369
01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:08.279
careful with his words, as if he was trying to

1370
01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:11.720
shape the narrative. From the start, Molly was more emotional.

1371
01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:15.079
Her first concern was what would happen to Jack and Sarah.

1372
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:19.520
Through tears, she told Lieutenant Detective Wanda Thompson, I'm scared

1373
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:22.560
they'll try and take the kids. Have you adopted the kids?

1374
01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:26.760
Thompson asked. Molly shook her head. Then that's a real possibility,

1375
01:11:26.840 --> 01:11:31.680
Thompson replied. Molly broke down sobbing, but I've raised them.

1376
01:11:31.800 --> 01:11:35.159
As the interview wound down, Detective Thompson tried to reassure her,

1377
01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:38.279
quote at this point, after talking to your dad and

1378
01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:40.000
talking to you, it looks like this is going to

1379
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:42.720
be self defense. Okay, I don't think there's going to

1380
01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:46.199
be any issue with that. Now. Whether Thompson truly believed

1381
01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:48.680
that or was simply trying to put Molly at ease

1382
01:11:48.760 --> 01:11:51.039
in hopes that she would let her guard down is

1383
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:54.319
unclear to me. What is clear is this, by the

1384
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:57.399
end of that night, Jason Corbett was dead and Tom

1385
01:11:57.399 --> 01:12:01.239
and Molly Martin's were walking free, but the investigation had

1386
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.079
just begun. And that is where we're going to end

1387
01:12:04.399 --> 01:12:04.840
part one.

1388
01:12:05.359 --> 01:12:07.760
That's a real cliffhanger. Rich, Well, that's.

1389
01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:09.880
How we do things, you know, keep people coming back

1390
01:12:09.880 --> 01:12:12.800
for part two. But I definitely think you should come

1391
01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:14.920
back for part two because it's really interesting.

1392
01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:15.800
I took my calendar.

1393
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:16.319
Okay.

1394
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:19.359
I know a lot of people sleep naked, but I

1395
01:12:19.399 --> 01:12:22.600
think when you have young children and the children might

1396
01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:24.840
come into the room when they're having a nightmare. Is

1397
01:12:24.880 --> 01:12:25.760
that weird or is.

1398
01:12:25.680 --> 01:12:28.159
That just me being well, I'm actually glad you brought

1399
01:12:28.199 --> 01:12:31.399
that up, because I don't know how Jason slept, whether

1400
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:34.560
he normally slept without his clothes, but his family members,

1401
01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:36.319
which again I don't know how they know or whether

1402
01:12:36.359 --> 01:12:39.359
they know, they said that he never slept naked like that.

1403
01:12:39.359 --> 01:12:40.800
That wouldn't be like him.

1404
01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:43.720
And especially if you have guests in the house, right.

1405
01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:47.439
Yeah, it does seem like you would probably it seems Yeah,

1406
01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:48.479
it seems unusual to me.

1407
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:51.039
But could he have been getting out of the shower

1408
01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:52.640
and that's when the attack started?

1409
01:12:52.920 --> 01:12:55.760
Yeah? Possibly. Well, let me ask you a couple of questions.

1410
01:12:55.960 --> 01:13:00.199
So Jason clearly had doubts about Molly early on, but

1411
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:03.279
they he still moved forward the relationship and the move

1412
01:13:03.319 --> 01:13:05.920
to North Carolina. We talked about it a little bit.

1413
01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:08.600
But do you think that he felt trapped by her

1414
01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:11.039
or do you think he was just desperate to give

1415
01:13:11.079 --> 01:13:12.319
his kids stability.

1416
01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:15.199
It seemed like he really wanted his children to have

1417
01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:18.439
a mother, and it sounded like he did love Molly

1418
01:13:18.800 --> 01:13:21.680
and she was good to them in the beginning.

1419
01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:23.880
Yeah, I think so. And I think when he found

1420
01:13:23.880 --> 01:13:27.520
out about her mental health struggles, I think that made

1421
01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:29.920
him want to help her too, and so he maybe

1422
01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:32.239
there may have been a little bit of denial there, like, yeah,

1423
01:13:32.239 --> 01:13:34.920
I can help her through this and we'll work through

1424
01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:35.399
it together.

1425
01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:38.399
We've been doing this podcast for almost three years, and

1426
01:13:38.439 --> 01:13:40.319
if there's one thing that I would want people to

1427
01:13:40.359 --> 01:13:43.560
know is trust your gut. If you're early on in

1428
01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:47.920
a relationship and you're already seeing those red flags, yeah,

1429
01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:50.279
and you know, get out of there before you're in

1430
01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:52.880
too deep, and yeah, so much harder to you know.

1431
01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:56.119
And if you're living together or you're engaged or married

1432
01:13:56.119 --> 01:13:58.680
and you have children to it's just the longer you're together,

1433
01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:01.119
the harder it is right to end things.

1434
01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:02.840
And it's not going to be good for your kids

1435
01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:05.880
if this relationship is going to be bad.

1436
01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:08.920
So don't sound so idealistic saying it, though, I know

1437
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:12.920
it's harder in practice. But yeah, I can't imagine if

1438
01:14:12.920 --> 01:14:15.079
I were ever to date again, which I'm not planning on,

1439
01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:18.399
it would I would just be impossible to I mean

1440
01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:20.079
I'm already impossible, but you know what I mean, it

1441
01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:23.119
would be really hard to find someone to trust. Oh yeah,

1442
01:14:23.720 --> 01:14:25.199
not see all those red flags.

1443
01:14:25.319 --> 01:14:29.319
Yeah, absolutely so, based on the crime scene, based on

1444
01:14:29.359 --> 01:14:31.640
what we've talked about, you know, one of the challenges

1445
01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:34.359
in a case like this is all you have to

1446
01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:37.840
go on is what Molly and Tom have said. Jason's

1447
01:14:37.880 --> 01:14:40.840
not there to tell his story, so but based on

1448
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:42.840
the crime scene and what you've heard, what do you

1449
01:14:42.920 --> 01:14:45.800
think actually happened that night. What's your best guess?

1450
01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:48.199
I guess, well, like I said just a minute ago,

1451
01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:50.319
the fact that he was naked made me think that

1452
01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:52.640
maybe he was attacked once he was getting out of

1453
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:55.359
the shower. You know, maybe I don't know his schedule,

1454
01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:57.520
but you know, maybe he took a shower at night

1455
01:14:57.640 --> 01:14:59.840
and you know, then he was coming into the bedroom

1456
01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:02.840
and she was ready, and you know, maybe she hit

1457
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:05.880
him with the brick first. But it's such a gruesome

1458
01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:08.800
scene and you can't but help compare this to your

1459
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:12.880
own life. And you know, if that situation happened, and

1460
01:15:13.479 --> 01:15:15.319
you know, my dad was in the house and we

1461
01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:18.279
were arguing, I would think that once you saw him,

1462
01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:20.920
you would stud. You wouldn't say I'm going to kill

1463
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:23.039
you in front of my dad, you would be it

1464
01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:25.840
would it would quell be argument right way.

1465
01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:28.439
I would think, Yeah, I think that whole story just

1466
01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:31.079
it just doesn't add up to me. The thing I

1467
01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:35.439
struggle with the most is how was Tom involved in this?

1468
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:38.520
Because you know, I'm not going to help my daughter

1469
01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:42.239
kill someone unless I mean, if I really had to

1470
01:15:42.279 --> 01:15:44.119
and I felt like her life was in danger, of

1471
01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:46.319
course I would sit you backpedaling, But not if it

1472
01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:49.159
was like a premeditated thing, of course not so. I

1473
01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:53.159
just wonder like, did she did Molly attack Jason with

1474
01:15:53.279 --> 01:15:56.760
the brick and then did Tom come running up without knowing?

1475
01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:59.359
And it's hard to believe that the father would be

1476
01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:03.279
complicit the plan to murder anyone, especially being a law

1477
01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:06.680
enforcement agent. Maybe Molly knew that her parents were there

1478
01:16:06.680 --> 01:16:09.800
and it was an opportunity where I don't know, or

1479
01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:12.159
maybe she did the overkill. I don't know. Maybe her

1480
01:16:12.239 --> 01:16:15.600
dad helped. I can't see him agreeing to killing Jason,

1481
01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:16.319
but maybe.

1482
01:16:16.039 --> 01:16:18.800
Help covering him. That was what I was thinking too,

1483
01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:21.640
is that maybe he came up, saw what she had

1484
01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:23.800
done and then helped her cover it up.

1485
01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:25.680
He didn't have the baseball bat. Maybe I don't know,

1486
01:16:25.680 --> 01:16:28.239
But Molly, you said that she's a smaller woman. I

1487
01:16:28.239 --> 01:16:29.239
haven't seen a picture of her.

1488
01:16:29.359 --> 01:16:32.079
Yeah, I think that the first I think she struck

1489
01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:35.000
him with the paver when he was in bed asleep.

1490
01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:38.119
I think that's what started it. But again that doesn't

1491
01:16:38.119 --> 01:16:41.680
explain if he didn't sleep on clothes. But yeah, it's

1492
01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:43.199
really hard to know what happened. The one thing I

1493
01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:45.600
will say, well, I'll mention this in part two, but

1494
01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:49.520
the paving brick had blood on all four sides of it,

1495
01:16:50.199 --> 01:16:53.319
so which led investigators to believe that he was struck

1496
01:16:53.399 --> 01:16:55.680
more than once with that paving brick. So it wasn't

1497
01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:56.960
just a one time thing.

1498
01:16:57.359 --> 01:16:57.760
Brutal.

1499
01:16:58.279 --> 01:17:00.439
Really, it's really horrible, horrible scene.

1500
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.359
Remind us again of the name of the documentary you

1501
01:17:03.399 --> 01:17:05.319
watched and where can we find it.

1502
01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:08.199
It is called A Deadly American Marriage and it is

1503
01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:09.000
on Netflix.

1504
01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:10.479
How many parts is it?

1505
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:12.079
It's just one. It's like, I think an hour and

1506
01:17:12.079 --> 01:17:12.319
a half.

1507
01:17:12.399 --> 01:17:15.840
Okay, maybe I'll watch that. When Michigan came this on, Lady.

1508
01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:17.920
Yeah, you definitely should watch it. I think I think

1509
01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:18.760
it would be really good for you.

1510
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:21.479
It'll be interesting to have the perspective of you telling

1511
01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:32.000
me the story and then seeing Netflix. Yeah and yeah.

1512
01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:36.479
As we mentioned at the beginning, a nice listener made

1513
01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:39.279
a Reddit post about us, and as a result of that,

1514
01:17:39.319 --> 01:17:42.880
we've got some new listeners. On the last episode, at

1515
01:17:42.920 --> 01:17:46.880
the end, you asked me that James Lipton inside the

1516
01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:49.640
actors studio questions. I thought it would be good for

1517
01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:52.279
me to ask you some questions. Not the same type

1518
01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:55.680
of questions. These are more get to know Tina questions

1519
01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:57.920
for new listeners.

1520
01:17:58.000 --> 01:17:58.880
Much as they need to know to.

1521
01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:01.119
Know, I don't think they do. So these are these

1522
01:18:01.119 --> 01:18:03.880
aren't hard questions. These are a little easier. But I

1523
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:06.920
want to start with, what is your favorite movie of

1524
01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:07.439
all time?

1525
01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:10.880
I don't know that's impossible to answer, Oh it's not.

1526
01:18:11.239 --> 01:18:14.279
I really love Bridesmaids a lot. I love to laugh.

1527
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:16.600
I love that. You know, you can watch a movie

1528
01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:19.079
and you can be having a bad day. But yeah,

1529
01:18:19.199 --> 01:18:21.560
you know, that movie always makes me laugh. And I

1530
01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:23.680
am not a person who likes to watch the same

1531
01:18:23.720 --> 01:18:26.199
movies over and over. Yeah, I tend to watch something

1532
01:18:26.239 --> 01:18:28.199
once and I don't need to watch it again. I

1533
01:18:28.279 --> 01:18:30.399
like to be exposed to new things. But I have

1534
01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:33.760
watched Bridesmaids probably twenty times, and it still makes me laugh.

1535
01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:35.560
And I really love it. And you know, like I said,

1536
01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:37.920
it's a great movie that's not typical for me.

1537
01:18:38.039 --> 01:18:40.239
Yeah, whenever it's on TV, it's like, oh, yeah, it's

1538
01:18:40.279 --> 01:18:42.319
one of those threes you gotta stop and watch.

1539
01:18:42.680 --> 01:18:44.359
To me, that movie is magical.

1540
01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:46.560
It used to be better off dead for you, I.

1541
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:49.640
Used to Yeah. John Cusack was my first boyfriend, my

1542
01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:52.720
first love. Yeah, not really, I mean I really used

1543
01:18:52.760 --> 01:18:54.479
to love him, but now I don't love him as

1544
01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:57.239
much as I used to. But yeah, I used to

1545
01:18:57.479 --> 01:18:59.840
when I was like young, that was my favorite movie.

1546
01:18:59.920 --> 01:19:02.479
Or I loved The Man with Two Brains with Steve Martin.

1547
01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:07.680
Really just silly. But I like, you know, scary movies

1548
01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:13.479
and silly movies. I love The Ice Storm. I don't know,

1549
01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:15.079
there's a lot of movies I love.

1550
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:17.279
Well, I've got more questions, so don't don't go on

1551
01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:19.880
too long about each one. What is your favorite book

1552
01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:20.439
of all time?

1553
01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:23.239
I mean you're asking some questions that are like impossible.

1554
01:19:23.279 --> 01:19:23.640
I love.

1555
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:24.840
I mean, you know I love books.

1556
01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:25.760
I love I know you do.

1557
01:19:26.399 --> 01:19:29.239
I don't think I could give you a favorite book

1558
01:19:29.279 --> 01:19:32.119
of all time. They just like every year I might

1559
01:19:32.159 --> 01:19:32.880
have a favorite.

1560
01:19:32.920 --> 01:19:34.880
I'll just pick one of a book that you love,

1561
01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:37.279
that you've read relatively recently that I.

1562
01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:40.680
Have to consult my good Reads. Well, somewhat recently. I

1563
01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:42.800
think when we were on vacation, I finished a book

1564
01:19:42.840 --> 01:19:48.239
called Broken Country by Claire Leslie Hall. I rated that

1565
01:19:48.319 --> 01:19:52.439
five stars. I enjoyed that very much. And I think

1566
01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:54.880
I've talked about the God of the Woods. I really

1567
01:19:54.920 --> 01:19:56.640
loved that book. He read that that was one of

1568
01:19:56.720 --> 01:19:58.760
the best things I've read. Like, if you asked me

1569
01:19:58.840 --> 01:20:00.960
my favorite book, I would say I, I really love

1570
01:20:01.039 --> 01:20:04.399
that one's I'm so busy right now that it's hard

1571
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:09.319
to find the time to read books and or to

1572
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:11.159
want like I used to love to like sit I

1573
01:20:11.199 --> 01:20:13.439
would read two books a week. And yeah, because we're

1574
01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:15.520
so busy with the podcast reading books, I don't have

1575
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:17.920
time to do that anymore. And I miss like being

1576
01:20:18.039 --> 01:20:20.000
so engaged in a book that I don't want to

1577
01:20:20.000 --> 01:20:20.479
put it down.

1578
01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:22.359
Yeah, so I'm in a little bit of a reading

1579
01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:24.840
slump myself. It's not that I don't have time. I

1580
01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:27.239
just feel like, I mean, you're having hard time focus.

1581
01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:29.640
Just said you read three books for this case. So no,

1582
01:20:29.680 --> 01:20:32.760
you're well, and you have a demanding full time job

1583
01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:34.680
and a demanding full time wife.

1584
01:20:34.800 --> 01:20:39.119
So, speaking of vacations, what was the best vacation you've

1585
01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:40.199
ever taken? And why?

1586
01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:45.359
I mean, every day with you, my darling, sweet, handsome husband,

1587
01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:48.119
is like a vacation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.

1588
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:50.600
I think every time we go away, I feel very

1589
01:20:50.640 --> 01:20:53.079
fortunate that we always have a good time together, whether

1590
01:20:53.119 --> 01:20:55.720
it's us or with our kids. I mean, I'm not

1591
01:20:55.800 --> 01:20:58.439
a Disney adult. But I really love Disney. I would

1592
01:20:58.439 --> 01:21:00.199
love to go back. It's been a long time. Maybe

1593
01:21:00.199 --> 01:21:02.359
it would be fun to go now, like without the kids.

1594
01:21:02.439 --> 01:21:05.640
Yeah, we should, but I don't.

1595
01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:08.359
I don't know. What's your favorite vacation. You're not answering

1596
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.760
these questions. I'm sorry, I'm being not reciprocal, right, I

1597
01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:13.399
know we're going We could go on and on.

1598
01:21:13.399 --> 01:21:15.960
My favorite vacation I think was the two weeks we

1599
01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:18.920
took where we drove. It was like a huge road.

1600
01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:21.600
We flew to Las Vegas, but then we drove like

1601
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:22.600
all it.

1602
01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:23.439
Was a lovely trip.

1603
01:21:23.560 --> 01:21:26.560
Yeah, we went up California, Yosemite. It was really an

1604
01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:29.479
amazing trip, long, nice two week vacation.

1605
01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:32.439
Yeah, and we got to see your sister and brother

1606
01:21:32.439 --> 01:21:34.880
in law and yeah, it was a really nice time.

1607
01:21:34.960 --> 01:21:38.880
Our kids are good travelers and that's we've been really

1608
01:21:38.960 --> 01:21:41.920
lucky with that too. Yeah, we're your favorite book on movie?

1609
01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:42.479
Really quick?

1610
01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:45.439
Oh my favorite book? This is going to be a

1611
01:21:45.479 --> 01:21:47.920
total cliche, but probably a catcher in the ryde just

1612
01:21:47.960 --> 01:21:50.239
because I remember like reading that when I was sixteen

1613
01:21:50.319 --> 01:21:52.439
and just fell in love with it. Favorite movie is

1614
01:21:52.479 --> 01:21:55.199
a tough one. It varies from day to day. Today

1615
01:21:55.239 --> 01:21:58.399
I will say Good Fellas is probably right up there.

1616
01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:01.119
So Jane Ayre also is my cavorite. I love Jane

1617
01:22:01.119 --> 01:22:03.720
Eyre and Gone with the Wind actually was you've never

1618
01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:07.000
read it before. It kind of holds up on East

1619
01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:11.560
of eden By. I'm gonna myself sound literary. She's so fancy,

1620
01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:13.880
but those are all really great books that.

1621
01:22:13.920 --> 01:22:15.800
Well that I'm gonna throw in Weathering Heights then, because

1622
01:22:15.800 --> 01:22:17.840
that's one of my favorite kind of in the class.

1623
01:22:20.199 --> 01:22:22.359
I have a couple more questions for you, So again,

1624
01:22:22.439 --> 01:22:26.279
speaking of vacations, we talked about vacation Jason, what is

1625
01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:30.000
vacation Tina like? What is vacation Tina like? And how

1626
01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:31.239
is vacation Tina different?

1627
01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:33.439
Vacation Tina is really boring. She used to be a

1628
01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:35.760
lot more fun, but now she's just like, just leave

1629
01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:39.399
me alone, let me sleep in. I don't know. I

1630
01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:44.000
like to have some good sandwiches. We're planning a trip

1631
01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:48.119
in a in October and I'm really just thinking about

1632
01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:51.199
a sandwich in Traverse City.

1633
01:22:51.640 --> 01:22:51.880
Do you know?

1634
01:22:52.000 --> 01:22:55.600
And you know what I'm talking about talk about? Yeah,

1635
01:22:55.640 --> 01:22:58.640
So I don't know. I think I'll have like one

1636
01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:00.920
drink at dinner and I'll be fine. Yeah, So I

1637
01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:03.439
don't know. I think I'm a little boring right now,

1638
01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:04.560
what do you think?

1639
01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:07.239
Well, I'm not not that different, really, I just for me,

1640
01:23:07.439 --> 01:23:11.079
like being on vacation is about just feeling free and

1641
01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:15.239
relaxed and unencumbered by worries and just being able to

1642
01:23:15.319 --> 01:23:17.960
chill out and you know, just not worry about stuff.

1643
01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:19.640
I definitely did that when we took a week I

1644
01:23:19.640 --> 01:23:21.399
thought that was actually a really great trip.

1645
01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:22.039
Yeah.

1646
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:25.560
I had a good time, and I did disconnect from

1647
01:23:25.680 --> 01:23:27.880
social media, and for me, I guess that would be

1648
01:23:27.960 --> 01:23:31.680
one thing that I'm trying to do, and especially on

1649
01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:34.399
weekends or vacations, I'm just because it really does get

1650
01:23:34.520 --> 01:23:36.680
kind of stressful. So yeah, all right.

1651
01:23:36.720 --> 01:23:39.840
My last question for you is a deep one. Okay,

1652
01:23:39.880 --> 01:23:41.960
what is your definition of success?

1653
01:23:42.439 --> 01:23:42.560
Oh?

1654
01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:46.840
God, I am not motivated by success, as you can

1655
01:23:46.880 --> 01:23:48.720
tell if you listen to this podcast, because I'm like.

1656
01:23:48.680 --> 01:23:51.119
Well, your definition may just be different from.

1657
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:54.359
Other happiness just being happy and liking yourself and being

1658
01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:56.680
at peace and having people you love in your life.

1659
01:23:56.760 --> 01:23:59.800
To me, it's that's what it's about. It's not about

1660
01:24:00.359 --> 01:24:02.760
although you know, for me to answer that question is

1661
01:24:02.840 --> 01:24:08.680
also somewhat entitled because we're not rich, but we're comfortable

1662
01:24:08.720 --> 01:24:11.319
financially so that gives me like a you know, a

1663
01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:14.439
different when we're older. So I can answer that question,

1664
01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:15.720
you know what I'm saying.

1665
01:24:16.279 --> 01:24:18.159
Yeah, you're in a position where.

1666
01:24:18.399 --> 01:24:20.279
They don't have to say, oh, I, you know, because

1667
01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:25.159
we're already financially secure, right, So I'm grateful for those things.

1668
01:24:25.399 --> 01:24:26.680
Yeah, and what about you?

1669
01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:30.560
To me, success is if we have a million people

1670
01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:34.760
listen to this episode. I'm just kidding now. I feel

1671
01:24:34.840 --> 01:24:37.039
very similarly to you. I mean, and I think a

1672
01:24:37.039 --> 01:24:39.880
lot of people feel the same. But I think the

1673
01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:42.159
way I want to think about it is that it's

1674
01:24:42.199 --> 01:24:44.560
more about the journey than a destination. It's not like,

1675
01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:46.800
oh yeah, if I could get to this point, then

1676
01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:50.520
I'll feel successful. To me, it's just, you know, feeling

1677
01:24:50.600 --> 01:24:54.399
like you're on a journey, you've got goals, you're moving

1678
01:24:54.520 --> 01:24:57.000
in a direction, and you feel some sense of happening.

1679
01:24:57.039 --> 01:24:58.760
We're goal oriented that I am.

1680
01:24:58.920 --> 01:25:02.159
Oh, I definitely am a little bit goal oriented, like

1681
01:25:02.399 --> 01:25:05.479
I do think I would. I don't know. I have

1682
01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:08.159
to have something that I'm working toward. But that makes

1683
01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:10.840
me happy. So that makes me feel kind of successful

1684
01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:12.239
that I have something like that.

1685
01:25:12.239 --> 01:25:16.159
That always makes me feel a little inadequate because I'm

1686
01:25:16.399 --> 01:25:19.159
you know, I've never had like a great career or whatever,

1687
01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:20.760
and I just kind of just want to be a

1688
01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:23.479
free spirit and enjoy the journey.

1689
01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:25.880
Well, I mean, you've had a great career as a

1690
01:25:25.920 --> 01:25:29.199
mom raising two great kids, so well, that's.

1691
01:25:29.119 --> 01:25:31.079
Nice to be to say. It's funny how we just

1692
01:25:31.119 --> 01:25:33.079
get these microphones in front of us and we just

1693
01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:37.159
bear our souls and answering questions that no one's asking.

1694
01:25:37.520 --> 01:25:39.760
I learned a lot about you today, so that's all

1695
01:25:39.800 --> 01:25:42.479
we did you. I don't think I learned anything too new,

1696
01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:45.720
but it's always nice to hear your thoughts on you

1697
01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:46.199
know it is.

1698
01:25:46.279 --> 01:25:49.079
It is nice to have like a more introspective talk

1699
01:25:49.119 --> 01:25:52.039
with your partner because we don't do that so much.

1700
01:25:52.600 --> 01:25:54.439
I think our listeners have learned a little bit more

1701
01:25:54.439 --> 01:25:56.600
about Tina as well, and I'm sure they appreciate that.

1702
01:25:56.840 --> 01:25:59.199
Sorry, I can't see any where's my eyes are rolled

1703
01:25:59.239 --> 01:26:00.520
up into the back of the school.

1704
01:26:01.119 --> 01:26:03.720
Well, thank you so much for sticking with us. Definitely

1705
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:06.079
come back for part two. If you'd like to listen

1706
01:26:06.119 --> 01:26:08.199
to part two right now, you can join us on

1707
01:26:08.279 --> 01:26:12.199
Patreon dot com. Slash Love Marykill. You can subscribe, it's

1708
01:26:12.239 --> 01:26:15.039
five dollars a month. You get early ad free access

1709
01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:17.760
and a monthly bonus episode. Or you can just buy

1710
01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:20.880
part two. It's three dollars just to buy and listen

1711
01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:21.880
to part two.

1712
01:26:21.920 --> 01:26:24.600
And you do that on patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill.

1713
01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:26.760
Yeah. And by the way, just so you know, we

1714
01:26:27.119 --> 01:26:30.119
Patreon doesn't allow us to make the episode any less

1715
01:26:30.119 --> 01:26:34.119
expensive than three dollars per episode, and they also do

1716
01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:36.960
a charge if you buy it on your iPhone, So

1717
01:26:37.079 --> 01:26:39.920
on the iPhone it's four dollars and fifty cents.

1718
01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:42.359
Oh so if you listen on your MacBook or whatever.

1719
01:26:42.600 --> 01:26:46.000
Yeah, so we don't have any control over that, so apologies,

1720
01:26:46.039 --> 01:26:47.640
but we would love it if you joined us on

1721
01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:48.960
Patreon one way or another.

1722
01:26:49.079 --> 01:26:52.119
We can not just slam Patreon, but Patreon is not

1723
01:26:52.279 --> 01:26:54.560
the most user friendly app now, so if you need

1724
01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:58.199
help once you become a member, feel free to message us. Yeah,

1725
01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:01.479
and also find us on YouTube. We're out there. We're

1726
01:27:01.520 --> 01:27:04.800
slowly growing, slowly growing, So if you're on YouTube, it

1727
01:27:04.800 --> 01:27:07.520
would be amazing if you wanted to subscribe, and we

1728
01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:11.359
always drop the episodes a day early on YouTube. Well,

1729
01:27:11.359 --> 01:27:14.960
please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media,

1730
01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:19.239
or send us an email at lovemarykilat gmail dot com

1731
01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:21.239
and if you listen on Spotify, if you want to

1732
01:27:21.319 --> 01:27:23.520
leave us a comment. We always love to hear what

1733
01:27:23.560 --> 01:27:27.439
you guys are thinking about the episodes or our banter

1734
01:27:27.720 --> 01:27:30.159
before the episode or after the episode. We love that

1735
01:27:30.239 --> 01:27:32.199
you are a part of our show and you make

1736
01:27:32.479 --> 01:27:34.159
it better and you make us better.

1737
01:27:34.640 --> 01:27:37.079
Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill

1738
01:27:37.079 --> 01:28:09.439
your wife.

1739
01:28:10.840 --> 01:28:11.359
Compat