Molly Martens and Jason Corbett - Part 2

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's it some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary kill. Hey you, Tina, Hey Rich? How are you? I'm good? How are you? I am doing pretty good. Happy Sunday, Happy Sunday, Last day of August. Yeah, well, this won't be released till we're actually ahead from once in our lives. This is shocking.

0:41 I think this will be released like September fifteenth, maybe wow. So yeah, we're a couple of two three weeks ahead. I want to give a shout out to mother Nature. Mother nature has been spoiling us with like the most beautiful weather. It's been so nice, so nice, and. It reminds me that humidity really does bring out the worst in me. It's been so pleasant, beautiful, just perfect. Yeah. Do you want to hear something that is going to outrage you? I sure do. I'd love to get fired up. Everyone loves to be outraged, don't they. Maybe you've heard about this the tennis player and the hat Have you seen this video at all? No?

1:21 I heard about a guy in a sandwich this week. But a sandwich never mind, Now I want to know about this guy and the sandwich. Well, I think the story is a fellow through a sandwich at a National Guard person and indeed of that, and they were trying to indict him. And you know, they always say that you can indict a ham sandwich, but in this case they were not able to indict a man or the sandwich. Oh okay, well, this is maybe slightly similar. But this is at the US Open. This will be old news by the time people hear this. But this tennis player, I'm gonna butcher's name, Camille My Shack. He went after his He went to give his hat to a little kid in the crowd and he put the hat up and this guy, this adult, snatched it away and took it.

2:10 And the tennis player didn't see it. He was just kind of moving on doing autographs and stuff like that, and the video went viral. The good news is the tennis player actually, when he's heard about this, he reached out on social media and said, hey, can anybody help me identify this kid. They found the kid and they met up and he gave me what about the guy? Well, so here here's the outrageous part. So the guy, it turns out he was of course identified, and he is the CEO of a Polish company. His name is CEOs are just. His name is Pyotr Sherrick, and he's an entrepreneur. No I can't, but he's like a multimillionaire. And so people identified him, and now like his company of course, is getting like just butchered online. He's getting like terrible reviews.

2:53 And I'm not one hundred percent sure this is real or not. But apparently he released a statement or maybe an email to his employees and it said, yes, I took it, Yes I did it quickly. But as I have always said in life, the rule applies first come, first served. He said, I understand something may not like this, but please let's not turn this into a global scandal. I bet that's not real. I don't know. It's a hard time to be alive. It is. You don't know what's real. And it's going to get so much work. It really is. What is his company? His company is called what do they do? Oh, it's like a paving company. They make paving and landscaping supplies things. It's kind of weird. That if that's true that he doubled down.

3:35 I know, I wonder. I've really tried hard to find out whether it was true or not, and I couldn't find it in any news reputable news site, so it might not be. But even in real time, it's kind of shocking that the crowd didn't, you know, yell at him. I think the crowd was dispersing. I think it was alf was over, so it was only on video that it got captured. But yeah, what a jerk, Like, who who does that? So I could see you doing that, To be honest, I did Detroit Tiger's game. Well what could you know? I could sort of excuse like in the heat of the moment, like you're not thinking and you just reach out and grab something or whatever. But then if that happens, then you like realize that that was a terrible thing I did, and then you issue an apology. But I think I wouldn't even do it in the heat of the moment.

4:21 You would issue an apology for sure, and you might meet it, but then you'd be like, but I really am glad that I got this Miguel Cabrera four thousand home running. No, no, no, I would never do that. All right, Well, would you like a snack? You've been hype in the snack for days? Sure? Yeah, I think it is pretty pretty good, all right, Larry David. Well, as you know, our case has a strong connection to Ireland, and I found this treat that apparently is popular in Ireland. It is called Irish chocolate biscuit cake. Oh, is made with biscuits like digestive of biscuits and rich tea biscuits and like a bunch of.

5:04 Chocolate my rich tea biscuits I did. Okay, so long story, but a listener told me like six months ago, maybe even longer, like, oh, you should do these rich tea biscuits because it kind of sounds like rich and Tina Bottom completely forgot about them. Oh that's funny, and yeah, they're in that basket up there. Oh well, now we have more rich tea biscuits. I think I saw some of the pantry and I was like, oh, did I put this in the pantry? That's honestly, they're not that good on their own, they're not, but in this that sounds really pretty Yeah. It's basically like the chocolate in the middle is there's it's a mix of dark chocolate, milk chocolate, and white chocolate, and then the biscuits are like crumbled up and put inside, and then there's a chocolate gnash on the top, and then I put a malteeser on the top, also as my own special touch.

5:49 You you don't cut corners, do you? No? I sure don't. Would you like to have a package of mal teeser somewhere in our house? There's a few left, Yeah, a few. Give it a try. How did you like the chocolate biscuit cake? That was one of the best things you've ever made me? Might be the best thing you've ever made me. I would give it an eleven out of ten. Yeah, it's so good. It's very rich, like you can only eat a little small amount to watch me watch more. What's the good cream stuff? The middle is basically chocolate melted and mixed together along with butter, so there's butter in it. But it's really pretty simple. It's like all this chocolate butter and then these biscuits in the middle.

6:35 Well, we have tons of biscuits, so we can make it again. Yeah, we sure can be really good. Thank you. Before we get back to our story, I know that you watched the Netflix documentary A Deadly American Marriage last night after we recorded part one without giving any spoilers away, What are your what are your thoughts on it? It was really well done. Yeah, it did seem like it showed both sides to a certain extent. I thought Jason is adorable. He looks a little bit like a hobbit. Molly beautiful woman. The kids beautiful kids. Uh. They were featured heavily in the documentary, which surprised me a lot. I'm getting emotional talking about it. Just they've been through so much. Tom oh gosh, just so unlikable.

7:20 Yeah. He comes across Molly's father. Tom, Yeah, just seems like just to know it all, not a good guy. Molly seemed sincere, but I know that she has a history of untruths. My biggest takeaway from the show was the crime scene was horrifically bloody, shockingly bloody, like one of the bloodiest crime scenes I've ever I've ever witnessed, and not witness but scene. And do you agree? Yeah, that's ogod. I'm glad you brought that up because we'll post some pictures. But it's hard. When I was when I was watching it. I was wondering, and we would like to hear back from our listeners. Is it okay when west bloody crime scene photos or would you rather us? We don't because sometimes I air on the side of you know, if the scenes are too graphic, I don't you're some blood, But if it's like an abundance of blood, I think that might be disturbing.

8:12 Yeah, it can be disturbing. I'm curious how people feel about that. The brick you had mentioned it too? Brick was it was shown and it was very bloody? Yeah? Yeah, Well, do you want to give us a recap of part one? Sure? In Part one, we traced Jason Corbett's life from his happy childhood and Limerick, his great love story with Mags Fitzpatrick and the heartbreak of her sudden death, to his move to North Carolina with his new wife, Molly Martin's. But beneath the surface of that fresh start, tension was building. Molly spun a web of lies, sought legal advice about custody, and even recorded Jason in an apparent effort to paint him as abusive. By the summer of twenty fifteen, Jason was making secret plans to return to Ireland with the children, and before he could act, Tom and Mollie Martin's killed him during a late night struggle. They claimed it with self defense, but the bloody crime scene raised serious doubts and left Jason's family demanding answers.

9:14 Well, that was a great summary written by you. Is there anything that I left out of that that you think is worth mentioning? Well, we just talked about how bloody the crime scene was. The thing that I keep thinking about is that Tom and Mollie. You know, they say that it was self defense, right, It didn't, you know, just from the crime scene, it just didn't appear to be self defense. Yeah. And even if Jason was hurting Molly like you could have hit him with the baseball bat twice, but killing him till death didn't seem necessary, right. Yeah, No, I agree. Tom claims that he only hit Jason until he was sure he was subdued and then called nine one one, But obviously he was much more than subdued, though his skull was essentially crushed.

9:58 Yeah, I'm guessing you were going to talk about the autop for sure. It didn't take long after Jason's death for the line between the Martin's family and the Corbett family to Harden into a brick wall. The first Corbett to be notified of Jason's death was his twin brother Wayne. On Sunday, the day after Jason's death, Sharon Martin's called him from Molly's phone. Her explanation was brief. Jason and Molly had argued, Molly pushed him, he fell, hid his head and died. When Wayne asked to speak to Molly, Sharon flatly said no and hung up. According to Wayne, the entire call lasted about fifteen seconds. Wayne immediately rang Tracy, who began alerting other family members. Several of them tried calling Molly for answers, but no one from the Martin's family picked up.

10:42 Even without details, Tracy had a sickening feeling a certainty deep down that Molly had murdered her brother. When she finally got Sharon on the phone, she was met with coldness. Sharon told her that Jason had been abusive, that Davidson County Police had responded to his threats against Molly at least six times. That was false. Sharon also claimed that Jason had been drinking for twenty four hours straight before the fight that too, was untrue. There was no empathy in Sharon's voice, no sorrow. Tracy described her as sounding almost annoyed even be on the call. When Tracy asked if Molly had been arrested, Sharon snapped, of course not. How dare you even ask that question? And then she hung up. Tracy kept trying to reach Molly. When her calls and texts went unanswered, she finally sent a message, if you don't call me back, I'll start texting every one of your neighbors for information. Minutes later, Molly phoned, sobbing Tracy. Knowing Molly's flare for theatrics, cut straight to the point, she demanded to know what had happened. Molly said Jason had been drinking all day, that he tried to strangle her, and that she hit him and pushed him.

11:48 He fell backwards and hit his head. She said he's dead. Before ending the call, Molly allowed Tracy to speak briefly with Jack, and then she hung up. For Tracy, the conversations confirmed her worst fears. The Martins were already working to smear Jason's name, and she knew exactly why Molly wanted the children. Tracy realized she needed to get to North Carolina as quickly as possible, and she would need help from the Irish government. Because Jack and Sarah were Irish citizens with Irish passports, She and her sister Marylyn booked immediate travel. On the long journey, Tracy managed to reach Detective Wanda Thompson. Tracy told her everything about Molly's behavior, about Jason's plans to return to Ireland with the kids, and about her belief that his death was anything but self defense. When the call ended, Tracy felt heard. She was reassured that investigators weren't simply taking Molly's story at face value.

12:43 During episode one, you talked about Detective Thompson, and I believe that she told Molly clearly, this is self defense. Don't worry about it. We have you covered. She did say more or less that that it seemed like they were leaning toward self defense. Do you think that that changed the investmentstigation at all? It doesn't seem to, because I think that from what I could gather, the police pretty quickly realized that there were, you know, a lot of signs pointing in the other direction from self defense. So I don't think it did even in death, Molly tried to control access to Jason. Tracy longed to see her brother's body, but Molly was racing to have him cremated before she had the chance.

13:23 Within twenty four hours of Jason's death, Molly had engaged a funeral home to carry out the cremation. Tracy discovered which one and called, pleading with them to hold off until she and Marylyn arrived, so Molly switched to another funeral home. Tracy tracked that one down, too, once again begging them not to proceed. When Tracy and Marilyn finally made it to North Carolina, they went straight to the funeral home, but the staff refused to let them view Jason's remains. They said they had explicit instructions from his legal next of kin Molly to deny access. Desperate, Tracy and Marylyn called Sharon Martin's, hoping for compassion. Sharon's re response was blunt, talk to your lawyers, so they did.

14:03 The sisters hired an attorney of their own, and after five days a deal was reached. Malli would allow them to see Jason and take his body home to Ireland, but only if the Corbett family agreed to pay all the funeral costs in both the US and Ireland. Reluctantly, Tracy agreed. When she finally saw Jason's body, she was shaken. His facial features looked altered. She didn't yet know the full extent of his injuries or how much reconstructive work the mortuary staff had been forced to do on his skull just to make him viewable. Meanwhile, Molly arranged a memorial service for Jason in North Carolina. The Corbetts were told they were not welcome. The Martins even hired off duty police officers to serve as security at the service.

14:45 Why you know, I think just that the lines were drawn very clearly, very quickly. In this case. The two families were not going to see eye to eye, and they were basically going to be enemies from this point forward. Just four days after Jason's death, his children, Jack nearly eleven, and Sarah nearly nine, were taken to the Dragonfly House, a child advocacy center, to be interviewed by social workers. In the days leading up to the interviews, they had been in Molly's care. Both children told stories that closely mirrored Molly's version of events. Jack said his father often got angry with Molly over small things like bills or leaving lights on, and that he had seen Jason hit or push her once or twice. Quote he would physically and verbally hurt my mom. Jack explained words that some would later note sounded less like an eleven year old's phrasing and more like an adult's. Jack had been asleep during the struggle that killed his father, yet in his interview he recited almost the exact same account that Molly had given to police. Sarah had a nightmare, Jason became furious.

15:51 He screamed at Molly, Molly screamed back, and Tom rushed upstairs with the bat. Jason grabbed the bat, swung at Tom, and then Molly hit him with a brick. It hit his temple right here, Jack said, pointing, and he died. When asked how he knew Sarah had a nightmare, something he couldn't have witnessed, Jack admitted, my mom told me. He also explained the presence of the brick in Molly's bedroom. Molly had bought pavers weeks earlier, he said, with plans to paint them and use them as decorative edging for flowers in the yard. She had asked Jack to bring one inside so it wouldn't get wet in. The rain, although I did read later that it hadn't rained at all that day, And I don't think anyone really checked on that.

16:32 To why would check the weather, why would she ask him to bring one brick in? It's a great question. I don't know. I can't answer that. I think you might have mentioned this in part one, but it doesn't explain why there was a brick on her bedside table, No, it really doesn't. And normally the kids did arts and crafts projects in the kitchen, on the island, in the kitchen, so it's also strange that Molly would have told Jack to bring the paper in and put it in their bedroom. Zara's account was strikingly similar to her brothers. She said her dad got angry for ridiculous reasons and that she had seen him hit Molly once. She described her nightmares and how Jason would become angry if she woke him, and the night of his death, she said she dreamed that the fairies on her sheets turned into spiders and lizards.

17:18 She went to her parents' bedroom, Molly got up to change the sheets, and Jason became furious, leading to the fatal fight. Two children, Two stories, both consistent with Molly's, both inconsistent with what investigators believed actually happened. The fire for custody of Jason's children began almost immediately. Within thirty hours of his death, Molly's lawyers had already filed for guardianship, custody and even adoption. She secured an ex parte order granting her temporary custody on the grounds that Tracy might kidnap the children and take them back to Ireland. But Tracy was determined. She had already reached out to Irish diplomats, pressing for support at the highest levels. She even contacted Ireland's Minister of Foreign Affairs, directly warning him quote, if anything happens to Jason's children while in Molly's care, I will hold you responsible. He reassured her that the full resources of the Irish state would be behind her. After arriving in North Carolina, Tracy learned of Molly's filings. She quickly retained a lawyer who submitted Jason's will to the court.

18:25 The document made Jason's wishes clear if anything happened to him, guardianship of Jack and Sarah would go to Tracy and her husband, Dave. Molly was not mentioned. A custody hearing was set for August fourteenth, just under two weeks after Jason's death. It was contentious from the start. Tracy testified for five hours under sharp cross examination, with Molly's attorneys trying to paint her as a vindictive sister bent on revenge. Molly, they argued, was the true victim. Molly's side brought in friends who testified about what a wonderful parent she wants was. They emphasized that Sarah had no memory of Mags and that Molly was the only mother she had ever known.

19:06 Mollie herself minimized her mental health history, admitting that she had once been diagnosed as bipolar at fifteen, but claiming it was a misdiagnosis. Tracy's witnesses told a different story, one of volatility, angry outbursts, and erratic behavior. The arguments were fierce. Mollie's team's stress stability that she had been the one taking the kids to their appointments, preparing their meals, running their day to day lives. Tracy's team pointed to Jason's will the children's Irish citizenship and the fact that Mollie had never adopted them. It also weighed in Tracy and Dave's favor that they were trained foster parents and they had already raised two children of their own. After deliberating over the weekend, the judge issued his order. Jack and Sarah were to be removed from Molly's care. Temporary custody would go to Tracy and Dave. The handover was wrenching.

19:58 Social services official and police officers arrived at the home of Molly's uncle Bobby, where the family was staying. Molly screamed, please don't take my babies. As Jack and Sarah cried, clinging to her, They looked to her for comfort, but she was collapsing onto the pavement, wailing and hyperventilating. The children were taken instead to Tracy and Dave, who were waiting at a nearby hotel. At first, Jack and Sarah were wary. Molly had warned them that Tracy and Dave would take them away forever, but gradually they warmed, sensing the stability and love the couple offered. A day later, a judge finalized the ruling the children could return to Ireland. He explained his reasoning plainly. Jason and Maggs would have won and their children raised in their homeland, surrounded by Irish culture, religion, and tradition. For the Corbett family, it was the first step toward justice and the first step in bringing Jason's children home.

20:52 Such a tough, tough situation for those kids. Her heart just goes out to him, you know, they were so used to they were living with Jason and Molly, Jason's ow gone, and Molly really was the only mother that they had known. Or Jack probably had some vague memories of Mags, but probably not much. Yeah, definitely a heart wrenching scene. And Molly probably could have made it easier on the children. I can understand how she was heartbroken too, but she wasn't going to win, so she could have, you know, said, these are nice people. You can go with them. They're going to take good care of you. I'll call you, I'll be there for you. But you know, she chose trauma instead. We'll be back after a break.

21:40 For Tracy and Dave, winning custody was only half the battle. Getting the children safely out of the United States might not be so simple. There was still the risk that Molly's legal team could file a challenge to delay their departure, but to be effective, the paperwork would have to be served directly to Tracy and Dave. That meant if they could stay a step ahead, they could get the children home. What followed played out like something from a spy novel. Word reached them that members of Molly's family and legal team had been spotted at Charlotte Douglas International Airport asking airline staff about passenger lists for flights to Dublin. Irish diplomats working with Tracy and Dave quickly shifted plans. Instead of flying out of Charlotte, they were told to drive to Greensboro, catch a flight to Washington, DC, and then regroup there. In Washington, they checked into a hotel under assumed names. The next day, Irish officials advised them to re route again, this time to New York. With two major international airports, it would be harder for anyone to track them. The Irish consulate booked train tickets to Newark, and from there the family finally boarded a flight to Dublin.

22:47 Wow I Know. Tracy and her book wrote about the palpable relief when the wheels of the plane finally lifted off the ground from New York to Dublin, because I think up until then it was just pure stress. US Irish Embassy staff traveled with them every step of the way, fulfilling the Foreign Minister's promised that the full resources of the Irish state would stand behind them. When Jack and Sarah landed in Dublin, they were met with an extraordinary sight. The case had dominated headlines, and hundreds of people turned out at the airport holding signs welcoming the children home. For Sarah, the joy was immediate. She ran into the arms of her granddad, John Corbett. Jack, though, was devastated.

23:29 Deep down, he had been clinging to a child's hope that their father might somehow be waiting for them in Ireland. When he realized Jason wasn't there, the full weight of his loss finally broke over him. Days later, Jason's family held a memorial service in Limerick. Tracy gave the eulogy. She closed with one of Jason's favorite sayings, how lucky am I to have had something that makes saying goodbye so hard? Jason Corbett was laid to rest beside the great love of his life, his soulmate, Mags. So the custody case really strained relations between Ireland and the United States for a time. Yeah, it really did. People were definitely taking sides depending on which country you live in. Back in Limerick, Tracy and Dave leaned on their training as foster parents to help two deeply traumatized children. They arranged counseling immediately, but trust didn't come easily. Both Jack and Sarah had already lost so much. One night, Sarah asked Tracy quietly, how is it possible that I've now lost three parents? Jack struggled most in those first months, At nearly eleven, He felt uprooted, He missed his friends in America, his school, his sports, and painfully, he even missed Mollie. Tracy and Dave believed it was best to cut off contact. In their view, Molly had killed Jason and continued communication would only confuse and harm the children. Molly, however, was determined to maintain a presence in their lives. Just over a month after Jason's death, Tracy received an unusual call from a small aviation advertising company at Shannon Airport. Someone in

25:02 the US had requested a plane fly a banner over Jack and Sarah's school. The banner was to read Jack and Sarah, Happy Birthday, Love Mommy. Suspicious, the company reached out to Tracy. Once they learned the background, they refused the contract. Words spread quickly and other companies in the region turned Molly down as well. The Martin's family even contacted the Limerick Leader newspaper, hoping to buy a half page ad. The newspaper declined, but Molly found ways to reach out publicly. She began posting messages on social media. It has been three weeks since you were taken from me. I wish I could hold you. Oh babies, I love you so much. It hurts so much thinking of you and wondering what you are doing. Meanwhile, Tracy, Dave and other relatives were inundated with friend requests from people in the US. They soon realized that they were acquaintances of Molly's trying to gather information about the children. Molly even sent friend requests directly to some of Jack and Sarah's classmates.

26:02 The Irish police took the situation seriously. They placed Jack and Sarah in their national Alert system, meaning that if Tracy or Dave ever raised in alarm authorities could lock down the entire area within minutes to prevent any attempted abduction. Over time, the children began to settle. They adapted to their new home and their new family. Slowly, they learned to trust again and began to feel loved and secure in Tracy and Dave's care. While Jack and Sarah were beginning to adjust to their life in Ireland, the investigation into Jason's death pressed forward. The autopsy cataloged an appalling list of injuries. Jason had abrasions on his forehead and beneath his eye, bruising on his shoulder, blades, injuries to his arms, legs, and torso.

26:46 His nose was broken, but the most devastating damage was to his head. The medical examiner couldn't determine the exact number of lows, at least twelve, some landing in the same spot. The force had been so severe that during the examination a piece of Jason's skull actually fell onto the table. It would have taken extraordinary strength or sustained repeated blows to cause that level of destruction. Toxicology results raised further questions. Molly had claimed that Jason had been drinking heavily for six hours straight that evening, and Tom said he appeared obviously drunk when they arrived at the house. Yet Jason's blood alcohol was just point zero two percent, which is way below the legal limit. Correct Now, alcohol metabolizes differently for everyone, but the numbers didn't add up.

27:34 If Jason had stopped drinking around ten pm and died around three am, his BAC earlier in the evening would likely have been around point one zero. Legally impaired, yes, but nowhere near what you'd expect after six straight hours of drinking, especially not for a man of Jason's size around two hundred and sixty pounds. Then came something even more puzzling. Toxicology revealed a small amount of trazodone in Jason's system, zero point five milligrams per leader, below the therapeutic range. Trazodone is an antidepressant sometimes prescribed to treat himsomnia, but Jason had never been known to struggle with sleep. In fact, he'd never been prescribed trasidone at all. Molly had picked up a prescription for herself, though, just three days earlier.

28:19 Well, the question, of course, is why would Jason have that in his system if it was a prescription that Molly had, Right. But if Molly was going to drug him, would she give him more than half a dose? Right? That was kind of contrary to that as well. Right, it's a small door, less than a therapeutic dose. So yet, unless could it have worn off? Was that just like the residual amount in his system. Yeah, I didn't find the math on that like I did with the alcohol content. I'm not sure if it's easy to know how fast that metabolized in your system. In December twenty fifteen, four months after Jason's death, a special grand jury indicted both Tom and Molly Martin's on charges of second degree murder. They were released on bond, required to surrender their passports, and barred from contacting Jason's children or any member of the Corbett family. But in January twenty sixteen, Jack secretly tried to reach out to Molly.

29:13 Borrowing a friend's phone, he called her. When she didn't answer, he left a voicemail, Hi mom, missus Jack, this cannot go public. I miss you and I love you. Keep fighting really hard. I want to know how you are. I'd love you so much. Call me pretty please, So five months on, Jack is still really having a hard time? Yeah, definitely. Jack's plea was private, not only for her, but Molly released it to the press, a move she framed as proof the children were still on her side. For Jacket felt like a deep betrayal. If Mollie would use him like this, maybe she hadn't been the person he thought she was. He began reading news coverage about his father's death, revisiting memories and questioning the stories he'd been told. Slowly his perspective shifted. He came aim to believe Molly had lied to him and that she and Tom had killed his father intentionally. Nine months after Jason's death, Jack confided in Tracy and Dave that he wanted to set the record straight. He admitted that in those early days he had lied at Molly's instruction. She had told him that if he didn't say the right things, he'd be taken away from her, never see her again, and worris that he and Sarah would be separated. Tracy arranged a video call with a North Carolina Assistant district attorney. On the call, Jack recanted his earlier statement. He told prosecutors he had never seen his father abuse Molly and that Molly had coached him on what to say. A few months later, Sarah also came forward. She explained everything I'd said had

30:45 been motivated by my wanting to keep Molly in share and happy and to ensure that Jack and I stayed in America. I had to go home with those people after the interview, and I was convinced I'd live with them for the rest of my life. I had been in survival mode when I'd given that interview. She's so young to be making such a grown up statement. Yeah, she is a really intelligent young lady. I would say. Sarah had already lost her mother and father, she didn't want to lose Molly and Jack too. But with time she admitted the truth. She had never once seen her father lay a hand on Mollie. So you can kind of see where this is setting up, where this is going to go for the rest of the story. So Jack and Sarah made statements four days after Jason's death with a trained social worker that supported Molly's story, and then they went and stayed with Tracy and Dave, and a few months later they changed their story.

31:37 And so it's a really challenging thing with kids right they're nine and eleven years old to know side which time were they telling the truth and which time they weren't. Absolutely both children began sharing painful stories. Mollie, they said, demanded that Jack always call her mom and punished him if he didn't. Sarah knew instinctively never to mention her birth mother around Molly. Once, when Sarah forgot to hide a treasured photo of Mags, Molly exploded, this woman is dead. She is dead. To hear me, I am your mother. Molly then hurled the framed photo down the stairs, shattering the glass and breaking the frame. Later, Jason gently helped Sarah glue the frame back together. She kept it hidden for years and now proudly displays it by her bed.

32:24 Jack described another incident before Jason left on a business trip, He told his father that he loved him, and Molly flew into a rage. She stormed into Jack's room, scattering his clothes, overturning his bed, dumping his dresser. Jack said that Molly often beat him. Once, Sarah walked into the kitchen to find her brother flailing on the floor as Molly stood above him, punching him mercilessly. They never told Jason. Jack would excuse his cuts and bruises with stories of sports accidents. Sarah spoke about the swim team Molly coached. What began is something she loved turned into a nightmare. If Sarah didn't swim well, Molly wouldn't let her eat dinner. Once after a poor race, Molly sneered, if you act like a baby, you're going to swim with the babies, and forced her to attend infants swim classes as punishment.

33:13 When Sarah begged to quit swimming and join the baseball team that her dad coached, Molly lashed out, so you'd prefer to be with your dad instead of me? How could you hurt me like this after everything I've done for you? Do you not love me? Terrified of losing her, Sarah backtracked, assuring Molly that she loved her more than anyone. In times, Sarah realized what Molly had done, isolating her from her father, creating a US versus Dad mentality that robbed her of a relationship with him. Both children also revealed one of Molly's most chilling manipulations. From as young as five, Sarah recalled Molly repeatedly told her that Jason had killed her mother, suffocating Mags with a pillow. It was a lie Molly used to poison the children's memories of their father.

33:56 So these stories that we went through are obviously all coming from Jack and Sarah and Tracy of course, and Molly's sides. Of Molly and her dad, Tom haven't written any books or anything like that. I'm sure they would argue that the kids' memories were poisoned by Tracy and Dave or something like that. So that's partly why I think it's really important to watch the documentary and kind of hear directly from the kids in the documentary because I believe them. I think they seem really sincere, and their memories seem very vivid and accurate of this stuff. But obviously there's another side to the story as well, to Tracy and Dave. It quickly became clear that Tom and Molly's defense strategy was not only self defense, it was character assassination. Their plan was to smear Jason's name.

34:43 They leaned on stereotypes of Irish men as hard drinking brawlers. Molly told police that Jason had ties to the Irish Republican Army, that he had been violent since his teenage years, even claiming bizarrely that he had been a mixed martial arts fighter. Tracy spent the next year gathering counter evidence statements from Jason's teachers, principles, senior police officers, and work colleagues. Each one attested to Jason's good character, dismantling the rumors that Molly and her family were pushing. Meanwhile, Molly recruited friends to take her side publicly. One posted on social media quote, you need to understand that everything that happened that night was a result of Jason being a monster to his wife and children. He was physically violent and verbally and mentally abusive. None of this would be happening now if he had been a good person. I support Molly until the day I die. Another friend told forty eight Hours anonymously that Molly had described Jason as controlling and verbally abusive, and that his behavior escalated to quote forced sex and stuff like that, But when pressed, the friend admitted that Molly had never mentioned these claims before Jason's death. Perhaps the ugliest tactic was an attempt to cast suspicion on Jason over Mags's death. Tom Martin told people that he had once spoken with Maggs's father, Michael Fitzpatrick, who allegedly said I think he killed my daughter. Tom added patronizingly that Michael was not a well educated man and difficult to understand because of his accent.

36:15 So that part of the documentary made me so angry. It was so condescending and rude, the way he spoke of Jason's. Yeah that I watched the documentary before I did any other research, and that was the moment when my opinion of Tom just took a nose dive. Why say that? What is the point of saying? And Jason's father, his sins passed away from cancer, so he's not here to defend himself, but his wife and daughter did. Yeah. The Fitzpatrick family was outraged. Michael insisted that he had only ever met Tom once and that the two had never discussed Jason or Maggs at all. He put his denial in writing with a solicitor quote, I wish to state in no uncertain terms that the relationship between Jason Corbett and Margaret Corbett and the relationship between Jason Corbett and Molly Martin's was never discussed in any manner whatsoever.

37:05 I can also state categorically that we never discussed my daughter Margaret or the circumstances of her death, nor did I inform Thomas Martin's that Jason had killed my daughter Margaret. Michael's anger was so strong that he made sure to leave a written record before illness overtook him. He died soon after, never able to testify in person. Maggs's sister Catherine also spoke out, calling Molly a compulsive liar. She revealed that only days after Jason's death, Molly had sent adoption papers to the Fitzpatricks, asking them to sign so that she could push through custody of Jack and Sarah. They refused. Still, the Martin's family doubled down. They hired a medical expert who combed through Maggs's autopsy report and suggested that she may not have died from an asthma attack at all, but from manual strangulation injuries. The expert claimed that could have led to her death. Hours later, for Tracy, your campaign was intolerable. She refused to let her brother's name be dragged through the mud. Determined to fight back, she reached out to Mally's former fiancee Keith McGinn, the man who had written about their relationship in his memoir.

38:13 Keith empathized with the Corbett family and agreed to share with investigators what he knew about Mally's history of mental health struggles and instability. In July twenty seventeen, Molly and Tom Martins went on trial together, charged with second degree murder with a fallback option of voluntary manslaughter. At the very same time, Tracy and Dave filed a wrongful death lawsuit against them. The timing was coincidental. The statute of limitations was about to expire, but the Corbetts were determined that the Martin's family never profit from Jason's death. The prosecution's case hinged on one thing. The brutality of the attack, Jason's injuries, and the blood soaked crime scene told a story of sustained, one sided violence. Molly and Tom, meanwhile, walked away without a scratch. Had called it a Donnybrook, a desperate brawl, but the evidence painted a different picture.

39:05 A sleeping man ambushed, roused into a fight for his life, staggering around the bedroom and hallway before being beaten to death. Prosecutors argued that Molly's motive was clear. Jason was preparing to leave her and returned to Ireland with the children. Molly couldn't bear the thought of losing them, so she and her father killed him. They may also have been a financial incentive. Jason carried a six hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy. Originally, the children were listed as beneficiaries alongside Molli, but in twenty fourteen the policy was changed so that Molly was the sole beneficiary. No one could say exactly who made the change, only that it was done online. Combined with a mortgage free home worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, Jason's death left Molly set to gain well over a million dollars. A key pre trial question was whether the jury would hear from Jack and Sarah.

39:56 Their original statements supported Molly's story, their later recantations accused her of coaching them to lie. The judge ultimately excluded both versions, ruling that they contradicted each other too directly to be reliable. Still, the prosecution presented a mountain of evidence. Autopsy results Jason suffered at least twelve blows to the head. The medical examiner testified that at least one was delivered after he was already dead. Toxicology, his blood alcohol content was only point zero two percent, far lower than Molly's claims of six straight hours of drinking. His blood also contained trazodone, a drug that Molly had been prescribed three days earlier, but that Jason had never needed. The blood spatter found throughout the room, including stains only inches off the floor, showing that Jason was struck while down. Blood also marked the enseam of Tom's boxer shorts, proof that he had delivered blows while standing directly over Jason. Timing.

40:55 Much of the blood was dried or congealed, and Jason's body was already cool when pairs medics arrived, suggesting that Tom had not called nine one one as quickly as he had claimed the CPR doubts. The nine one one dispatcher testified that Tom did not sound winded despite allegedly performing hundreds of chest compressions. Neither Tom nor Molly had blood on their hands, although Jason's chest was bloody, raising doubts that they ever tried CPR at all. And then a former colleague testified that Tom made no secret of his dislike for Jason, and just four weeks before the killing, said that son in law, I hate him. And then there was the brick. Every surface of the paving stone was coated in blood, consistent with multiple impacts. Piece by piece, the prosecution dismantled Tom and Molly's story of a chaotic struggle.

41:44 What they described as self defense looked instead like a deliberate and sustained killing. I have a question that you might not know the answer to. But you said that Jason's body was cool, and I know that the body cools pretty rapidly after your dead. But you don't have any metrics there. No, I don't believe they took any measurements, and from what I've read, there's not there's not a lot of scientific consensus around exactly how fast the body. I really thought it was like a degree an hour or something like that. Maybe that may be like a ballpark, but I don't I could be wrong, but I've read that it's hard to really make a determination based on the body temperature. We'll be back after a break.

42:31 The defensive star witness was Tom Martins, himself with three decades and the FBI. His attorneys believed his credibility would carry weight with a jury. Surely, they argued, this was not the kind of man who would kill with malice. On the stand, Tom was calm and measured as he walked the jury through his version of events. I certainly. Well he would kill me. I thought both of our lives were in danger. I did the best I could. I did not like some of. Jason's behave, particularly with regard to my daughter. That does not mean that I demonized the man. Once I got control of the bat, I hit him until I considered the threat to be over.

43:14 And when I considered the threat to be over, I quit hitting it. But how did he come across credible or arrogant? That was the question lingering in the courtroom. Tom seemed to be able to recall the fight in painstaking detail, each blow, each shift, and momentum. Yet somehow he couldn't recall Molly ever striking Jason with the paving brick, even though the evidence clearly showed that she had. Molly did not testify on her own behalf. So Tom, with his thirty years in the FBI, some in the criminal division, Yeah, certainly knew how to be a slick witness, right. Yeah, he absolutely came across on the witness stand as very calm and collected. But I also wonder if that was heard by the jury as sort of arrogance as well, But that could just be me reading into it.

44:00 Closing arguments, the prosecution staged a powerful demonstration. The prosecutor have to the very weapons used in Jason's killing, the metal baseball bat and the paving brick. How much for does it take to split the flesh out of the way to the skull? You know what malice fields comes through. The brick that Molly had it Fields like, Hey, that's what malice feels like. Always wonder how effective those type of theatrics are in a courtroom. They attorneys loved them. Don't think absolutely. I think that's pretty effective. Yeah, this is what they did to Jason, he said, displaying the gruesome post mortem photos.

44:44 Then holding up the photos of Tom and Molly, he added, and this is what Jason did to them. Nothing. The jury needed just three hours of deliberation. When they returned, the verdict was unanimous guilty of second degree murder for Tom and Molly Martin's. After a brief recess, the court moved directly into sentencing, the district attorney read a letter from Jack aloud. It closed with words that brought many of the jurors to tears. Are you going to make me read this? Yes? My dad will not be forgotten. He will be remembered by his good life. How he made everyone feel good about themselves, How he was there for you if you needed him, how we always focused on the positive. How he was the best dad ever and the best friend, brother and son ever. Mollie Martin's will not be forgotten as well. She will always be remembered as the woman who killed her husband for no reason.

45:37 She will be remembered as a murderer. When the judge handed down his sentence twenty to twenty five years for both Molly and Tom, it marked the first measure of justice for Jason Corbett. As deputies led her from the courtroom, Molly turned to her mother and said, I'm so sorry. I should have just let him kill me. I see your eyes rolling a little bit at Molly's comment. They sure did. You had to to delete my first comment because it was inappropriate for air. Yeah. Outside the courthouse after the verdict, the jury foremen spoke briefly to reporters, He explained the speed of their decision, quote, we didn't discuss a verdict, but in having private conversations, we could read that everybody was going in the same direction.

46:19 The Martin's lawyers immediately seized on that comment. Had the jury been discussing the case before formal deliberations. If so, that would be a violation of the judge's daily instructions and grounds for appeal for Jason's family. Though the moment was one of release. After two long, grueling years, Tracy, Dave, Jack, and Sarah could finally breathe. Sarah said it was the first time that she had truly felt free in years, but the feeling didn't last. As Jack summed it up, everything was going well, but then everything went wrong again. The Martin's attorneys filed for appeal, first claiming jury misconduct. That motion was denied, but they pressed on, arguing that new Mara's errors had been made in the trial. In January twenty nineteen, the North Carolina Court of Appeals made the rare decision to hear oral arguments each side had just thirty minutes. The defense's key point it had been unfair to exclude the children's original statements given at the Dragonfly House just days after Jason's death. Those statements back to Tom and Molly's story. How could the trial have been fair without them? The appellate court agreed. The interviews, they ruled were conducted by trained professionals in a nationally accredited child advocacy center. Precedents supported their admission. The state appealed again, but the North Carolina Supreme Court ultimately upheld their decision. The guilty verdicts were overturned. Tom and Molly Martin's were free awaiting a new trial.

47:50 I can't say that I disagree with the appeals court decision because it does seem like the jury should get They should be allowed to decide which was accurate their the children's original statements or the statements they made later, or the children should be allowed to testify themselves and explain their own thoughts. Yeah. I agree. At the end of the day, everyone deserves the most fair trial that they can get. As prosecutors prepared for a second trial, Molly and Tom's defense had reason to feel confident first the children's statements would be admissible, that mentors would hear both versions the Dragonfly House interviews given just days after Jason's death, and Jack's later recantation months down the road. The defense believed the credibility of the first interviews would outweigh the second, especially since those early sessions were conducted by trained child advocates in a professional setting, while Jack's recantation was done over Skype, with the assistant DA asking the questions and Tracy sitting next to Jack. Second, the defense was prepared to revisit Maggs's death. They had experts ready to testify that our autopsy did not point to asthma as the cause, but rather to poss strangulation. The state's own experts conceded that Maggs likely had not died directly from asthma, but argued there were numerous medical explanations consistent with her history as an asthmatic. To conclude strangulation, they said, would be reckless and unsupported by evidence. Still, the mere suggestion that Jason may have killed his first wife had the potential to

49:22 sway a jury. Third, several of Molly's close friends were now willing to testify that they had witnessed Jason's fits of anger. The prosecution, however, had a powerful new advantage this time, Jack and Sarah wanted to testify. Both children had been too young and beyond the court's jurisdiction during the first trial, but now, as teenagers, they were determined to take the stand. They wanted to speak for their father directly. They were confident a jury would believe them, but prosecutors were wary. The stakes were high and the risk of acquittal loomed large. Rather than gamble everything at a retrial, State pursued plea negotiations. In the end, a deal was struck. Mall would plead no contest to voluntary manslaughter, while Tom would plead guilty to the same charge. A no contest plea allows a defendant to accept punishment without formally admitting guilt. It carries the same criminal penalties as a guilt deeply, but cannot be used against them in a related civil case. For Jack and Sarah, the news was crushing. Sarah and Ireland wept through the night. She had been waiting years to speak in court for her father.

50:31 Now the chance was gone to her. A plea deal didn't feel like justice at all. It felt like her voice was being silenced once again. Sentencing took place in November twenty twenty three. By then Jack was nineteen and Sarah seventeen. Together with Tracy and Dave, they flew from Ireland to North Carolina, the family's twenty fifth trip to the US in the eight years they had spent battling the Martins through the courts. The Netflix documentary captures a poignant moment as they arrived at the courthouse in their rental van. Tracy turned to her family. We are the strongest, most united together, Sarah added, and we're going to do this together. Dave closed with a pep talk. All will be okay. Time for crying is over.

51:13 Now it's time to get angry in their head up, shoulders back. Fuck these people. They're nothing to us. This wasn't a routine sentencing hearing. Instead of lasting an hour or two, it stretched across ten days. This really shocked me when I read that, because sentencing hearings are usually kind of a formality, like you just have a few victim statements and that's it. But this was almost like another trial. The defense filled that time with testimony that smeared Jason Corbett's character. Witnesses suggested that Jason's first wife, Mags, may have been murdered friends repeated Molly's claims of abuse. The defense played video of the Dragonfly House interviews from the days after Jason's death, in which Jack and Sarah supported Molly's story, as well as the secret Pancake Tuesday recording my Molly had made of an argument. We played that in part one. The prosecution, constrained by the plea agreement, was limited in what they could present. Their most powerful moment came from a psychologist who had interviewed Molly in twenty twenty two. He concluded that Molly's plan from the beginning of her time as Jason's nanny was to claim Jack and Sarah as her own, with Jason as an obstacle in her way. As the judge from the custody hearing had once put it, Molly seemed to feel a quote deranged entitlement to the kids. For the Corbett family, the hearing felt like reliving the smear campaign all over again.

52:36 They sat quietly through it, biting their tongues until it was finally their turn to speak. In the victim impact portion of the hearing, Jack's voice carried the weight of years of silence. The first thing I want to state clearly is I was a liar From the age of four to ten. I was taught how to lie and manipulate people by Molly Martin's. During this time, I was abused by Molly Martin's in every way you can imagine, and then some your honor. Don't be fooled by this mask of civility of Molly Martin's. There is a monster lurking underneath the exterior. She systematically broke me down and drip fed me on truths. I want to be clear, I have never witnessed my dad hit Molly Martin's ever. Luckily, my dad picked two wonderful parents to guide me through life.

53:20 It hasn't been easy, but having them made it a lot easier. Sarah followed, who is the victim here? The Martins made my pain so much worse by trying to have the world think my dad was a bad person. What Molly and Tom Martin's took from me I can never get back. I've seen my father's bloody handprint on the door of his bedroom. There was nothing voluntary about his death. He did not choose to leave us. He was taken from us. He was the victim. It was only when I went to live with Tracy and David in Ireland, that I knew the true meaning of family. The judge listened, but said the victim impact statements had not influenced his decision, which kind of made me wonder, what is the purpose of victims impact statements.

54:01 I think the purpose of a victim impact statement is for the victims to speak their truth, whether or not it changes the judge's decision. Yeah, no, I agree, but it just seems like the judge should at least take it into account and not say this didn't influence my decision at all. The judge said it was difficult to know the full truth in this case. Still, he raised questions of his own. Why hadn't Tom, a veteran FBI agent, called nine to one one before running upstairs with a bat. Someone with his training would know that the first thing you do is call for backup. Why hadn't Sharon called for help when she heard screams instead of rolling over and going back to sleep. In the end, he acknowledged the imperfections of the justice system and sentenced Tom and Molly each to between fifty one and seventy four months in prison, or around four to six years with credit for time already served that most likely meant an additional year behind bars at most. For Tracy, Dave, Jack, and Sarah, the sentence was crushing. It didn't feel like justice. Still, they held on to one small consolation. At least Molly and Tom would be led back to prison in handcuffs. Let's talk about what's happened since sentencing. The wrongful death lawsuit that Tracy and Dave filed back in July twenty seventeen was eventually settled. A trust fund was created for Jack and Sarah.

55:19 The Martins contributed one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, an insurance company and other twenty thousand dollars and Jason's six hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy went into the fund as well. Under North Carolina law, Mally wasn't eligible to receive the policy given her conviction in Jason's death. Jason's North Carolina house was sold in twenty eighteen for three hundred and forty six thousand dollars, about fifty thousand dollars less than what he had paid for. Even so, half of the proceeds from the sale the house went to Molli Despite her being behind bars for his murder at this time. That was because of North Carolina law. That looked like a beautiful house, too, oh. Very nice house. Most of the money in Jack and Sarah's trust went towards years of legal fees and travel at their own request, on top of the hundreds of thousands Tracy and Dave had already spent fighting for custody and justice. In June twenty twenty four, both Tom and Molly were released from prison, having served just seven months since their plea deal and just over four years in total.

56:20 Their probation ended a year later. Today, a court order prevents Molly from ever contacting Jack or Sarah again. In the Netflix documentary, Molly claims she never wanted a plea deal. She had been ready to fight another trial, but she admitted she took the deal because she couldn't face the possibility of her father spending the rest of his life in prison. For Jack and Sarah, the plea bargain and light sentence felt like a punch to the gut. They said it seemed like their father had been the one on trial. Justice in their eyes, had not been served. Both carried guilt, feeling as though they had somehow let their dad down. That's one reason they chose to participate in the Netflix documentary, to share their truth and to honor Jason's memory. Sarah also channeled her grief into writing.

57:05 At thirteen, she published a children's book called Noodle Loses Dad, the story of two bear cubs who lose their father but are taken in by a loving new family. At eighteen, she published A Time for Truth, reflecting on her father, her painful childhood with Molly, and her long road toward healing. She credits Tracy and Day for giving her and Jack the kind of stable, supportive home their dad had wanted for them. Jack, quieter and more private, chooses not to dwell on Molly. He says he doesn't hate her because hate would give her power over him. Instead, both he and Sarah focus on the pride they feel in being Jason Corbett's children. In Limerick, Jason's memory lives on. Former colleagues hosts an annual football tournament and a golf outing in his honor at the Lexington, North Carolina plant where he once worked. His team dedicated a tree and a plaque to him, turning his office into the Jason Corbett conference room. When the plant later closed due to a merger, that plaque was shipped back to Ireland to the plant where Jason first began his career. Rest in peace, Jason, and rest in peace, Mags. Before we have a little bit of discussion, I did want to mention my sources. Again.

58:15 Of course, I watched the Netflix documentary we've mentioned a few times, a Deadly American Marriage. Again, I highly recommend watching it because they did interview nearly everyone involved, Molly, Tom Jack, Sarah Tracy. CBS's forty eight Hours also did a really good job with their episode called In Jason's Name, which aired in twenty nineteen. And then I mentioned that I read three books. So when I found out that Molly's ex fiance, Keith McGinn had written a book about his relationship with Molly, I thought that that will provide a really fascinating glimpse into Molly's psyche, and it really did. The memoir is called Turning This Thing Around, and it's really about Keith's own mental health struggles, but it provides a really fascinating window into Molly's personality, the patterns from before she met Jason. Like I mentioned before, the book was published three years before Jason's death, so it wasn't like Keith McGinn was trying to cash in on Mally's notoriety, so that's why I found it really interesting. I also read Tracy Corbett's book My Brother Jason. Naturally, it's told from her perspective, but it's really valuable in understanding kind of what Jason's family went through, not only through his death but the years of legal battles afterwards, and it helped fill in a lot of the details that the documentary didn't cover. And then finally I read A Time for Truth, My Father Jason and My Search for Justice and Healing by Sarah Corbett Lynch, which was published just recently in May twenty twenty five, when Sarah was just eighteen.

59:45 It's a really remarkable book, not just because of her age, but because Sarah actually grew up undiagnosed with dyslexia when she lived with Molly. Most of her homework was done for her by Mally, because Sarah says that Mally cared more about appearances than Sarah's actual education, and so Sarah was really far behind in reading and writing when she first moved to Ireland. Since then she's turned writing into both the strength and an outlet, and the book captures her memories of her dad, her perspective on Molly, and her experience sitting through the ten day sentencing hearing is really powerful, really heartfelt, and really well written. So I would definitely recommend that as well. Very interesting.

1:00:27 I have a couple of questions for you. What do you think about the plea deal? Do you think the prosecutors were right to pursue a plea deal or do you think they should have taken it to trial again? You know, it's hard. I don't really know all of the evidence. I mean, you did a great job outlining the evidence. I'm not really sure. To me, it seems like there might have been enough evidence to go for murder one, really because like the prescription that she had secured and you know, having the brick by her bedside, and I don't know, maybe there wasn't enough evidence to point to. That for Malli. I think there could have been. Not for Tom, for sure. I think Tom wouldn't have been premeditated for him, but potentially I think Molly could have gone down for murder one. But I think would have been hard. It would have been hard to prove.

1:01:09 Yeah, the plea deal is definitely hard to swallow, especially because you know, on the tail end there wasn't much more time to serve. Yeah, but how much harder would it be to swallow if if they went back to trial and were acquitted, that that would be really hard to swallow. So yeah, I can empathize with the prosecution there. Yeah, absolutely. To me though, it's a win because Jack and Sarah got to go back to Ireland and it sounds like the rest of their childhood years were you know, pretty good. A lot of credit goes to Dave and Tracy feel raising them. Well. So that's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up, because in so many of these cases, you know, the kids are victimized again after their father or mother is killed.

1:01:50 And in this case, I think at least that turned out pretty good as good as could be expected. I mean, assuming that that Molly is guilty, you know, come out us if you think that we're wrong. But to me, it seems pretty clear that Molly had everything to do with Jason's death. Yeah. Do you think that there is any possibility that Jason was abusive toward Molly because I will admit, after watching the Netflix documentary, I first thought, you know, yeah, it's possible that there was some abuse going on there. I think as I did more research, I decided that I didn't think it was likely. But again, I read books by his family, so I'm probably a little bit biased on that point.

1:02:30 You would have mentioned that when you were doing your research that you were afraid that you were coming up one sided, but I don't know. To me, it all makes sense that everything points in that direction. For me, yeah, I think the biggest evidence against him being abusive is just as I read more and more about Molly and her propensity for lies and exaggeration, it just really seemed to add up that she really did want the kids for herself, and that was her primary motive. It is interesting to me that she one of the kids so badly, Like, why did she want them so badly? I'm sure she, assuming that she's capable of love, you know, loved them, but was it more about winning or was it, you know, did she think she was the better home for the children.

1:03:11 It's hard to know, it really is. I think you'd have to be a have a few degrees in psychology to really to figure that out. So the Netflix movie made me question the circumstances surrounding Maggs's death a little bit. Yeah, what do you where do you land on that? Yeah? No, I agree. I also it brought up questions for me as well. And the interesting thing was that, I think in the documentary they mentioned this that the prosecution the state also agreed that asthma was not her cause of death. But I think the difference is that the state said, yeah, asthma wouldn't cause your death like that, it could be related, but there could be tons of other causes that it could be, and there was nothing specifically to point to her being strangled and the fact that her st I.

1:03:56 Don believe that she was strangled necessarily, just that I was curious what could have caused her death? Yeah? Or was there negligence on Jason's side for not, you know, getting her medical treatment earlier? Yeah, it doesn't seem like it. I mean, so Mags's sister Catherine was staying with Jason and Mags at the time, and it seems like he did everything possible to get her to the hospital, even meeting the ambulance halfway because he didn't want to wait for the ambulance to get all the way out to their house. So it really doesn't seem like he did anything wrong in that situation to me, but again definitely open for you know, other opinions. Yeah. The one recording that we had of Molly, you know, secretly recording Jason in an argument, that seemed like maybe she might have been provoking him a little bit. Yeah, because she knew, like the whole pancake Day was important part of his heritage and tradition they wanted to pass on to his kids. The fact that the kids were still there was a little telling to me that they didn't know that, Oh, we should get out of here because something bad is going to happen.

1:04:58 That's a good point too. Sarah's book, she actually said on that recording she you could actually hear her yelling at her dad, like saying dad. I can't remember what she said exactly, but in her book she said, look, that's proof I wasn't scared of my dad. Right, Yeah, when I was a kid, Like, if there was something going on like that, you got out of the room because you kind of were afraid of what was going to happen. Yeah, that's a really good point. One final thing I wanted to mention both Jack and Sarah have found release in music. Singing, Sarah says isn't about perfection or applause, it's about healing. And Jack, at age fifteen, posted a video to YouTube singing a song called Dancing in the Sky by Danny and Lizzie. He dedicated it to both his mom Mags and his dad Jason. I wanted to close our case discussion with a little bit of Jack's voice, honoring the parents that he lost.

1:05:54 Tell me, why doesn't guy in heaven? Is it peaceful? Me? Is itvery? They say? Does the sun shot right? For? Even? Have your fears and you're paying on away because you on earth? Diffuse like everything goodness, missy. Since you love me and you're on earth, everything's different. There's an ending.

1:06:45 You're not going to be happy until you make us all try, are you? Oh my gosh, that was beautiful. I know he's a really beautiful voice. Yeah. I've seen videos of Sarah singing as well, and she also has a really beautiful voice. I wish them both just the very best in life. Yeah. Through it they just seem like too, Yeah, just lovely, lovely people. Long ago you did a case that was set in Australia, and you educated us all several Australian sayings and terminology and words and things like that. So I thought it would be good to do the same thing for Ireland because Ireland Irish people are known for having a good turn of the foot. We both have Irish in our backgrounds. Yes, like you could be from our you know, I feel like they're my people. I feel like maybe I'll finally feel like I fit in.

1:07:33 Really we really should, we really should go. So I've got some sayings and some words for you that I want to educate you on. Before I do that, I just want to give apologies to our Irish listeners if I have any of these wrongs. I did the best research I could, but I know sometimes the internet, you know, it can be a little questionable. And I'm not going to do any accents. But if I accidentally slip into an accent. You used to apology to a lot of accents. All right, So here's some phrases I found. I think this first one, and I think you'll know. But that's a fine thing. You know what that means. That's a fine thing. I mean, I don't it's a good thing. It's usually sarcastic. It means sort of like, that's typical, or okay, it figures I'm away with the fairies something really run. That means you're daydreaming, not paying attention. Oh I'm sorry, I'm away with the fairies right now.

1:08:21 Okay. I can't wait to tell that one to our daughter because she really loves that girls a little spacey just like her mom. Yes, and this one is interesting. Acting the maggot means messing around, goofing around, being silly, So quit acting the maggot. We can say that to our kids as well. Chancing your arm I thought that was an interesting one. Chancing your arm means taking a risk or pushing your luck, and it originates It's thought to originate from an incident in fourteen ninety two at Saint Patrick's Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin, where there was a feud and the feud was resolved when a member of the Fitzgerald family cut a hole in a door and extended their arm to offer a handshake.

1:09:05 But obviously they were risking serious injury if the other family was not willing to. Why did they have to put their hand through the door. I don't know, that's sorry, I dropped my smoothing stuff there. Great, thank thank goodness. That is a good question, though. What's the crack or where is the crack? We talked about crack a long time ago on another episode. But that means just sort of like, how, what's going on? What's happening? Where's what's where's the crack? Where's the crack? Stall the ball? That means basically what we would say, hold the phone, like if you said something to me like that was shocking, and I would take install the ball to you know, what are you talking about? On me Todd means on my own, So basically you might say I'm going out alone like I'm on me Todd today.

1:09:53 And that phrase originates from an American jockey named Todd Sloan who was always so far ahead of all the other horses. Best kind of on its own. There's another one I like, and that is to lob the gob. So I'm gonna lob the gob at you later, which basically means I'm gonna kiss someone. Okay, I thought you were gonna go a little further there, but. Okay, all right, And then I don't know if this is a common Irish phrase, or if just somebody came up with this on Reddit that I thought it was funny. But you might say someone is all fart and no shite, kind of like we would say someone is all talk and no action or all hat and no great. But I bet they sound a lot better with an Irish accent.

1:10:36 Oh, they totally do. Just I've got one or two that are more just like words but banjaxed if you if something is broken or ruined, like you might say the ice maker is completely banjaxed, which is very true of our ice maker Egypt, which is basically idiot but a total fool. Or yeah, this one surprised me. The term cute horror. Cute horror does not mean what you might think it means. Cute means like someone that is crafty and cunning, like someone who is kind of a scoundrel in business. But you would say they're a cute horror. Interesting. I hope we get to go to Ireland soon and test those out.

1:11:16 I really do as well. Those are probably are those all like outdated terms or do you think those are like embedded into the culture. From my research, my extensive research that I did those are all except the all fart and no shite on our common terminology. But let us know if you are Irish or listening from Ireland. I have had some people from Ireland reach out to us and they are lovely and they all have encouraged us to come visit them. Yeah. Well, in this case, just to maybe close the circle. This case was originally recommended by Marion from Dublin. So again, thank you Marian for the recommendation. And yeah, let us know if we if we got any of those phrases wrong. I've been meaning to mention this for a while. We have a lot of case recommendations and we're overwhelmed currently.

1:12:01 I think we could go probably a few years and sure. Guess what I want to say is I'm sorry because I know a lot of people recommend cases because they're passionate about them. They mean something to them, they might have a connection to them. So if you have a case that means something to you that you might have a personal connection to, you think would be really great for our podcast. If you want to resubmit that it might be a good idea. Yeah, send us an email lovemarykill at gmail dot com and give us a little more of that context around it too, because that can help us to prioritize which cases are going to be Y's interesting to do. Yeah, what was. The treat that you made? Called again Irish chocolate biscuit cake. And the recipe that I used, I'll post it, but it was from a website called Stalina Sweets. There's a lot of different recipes out there.

1:12:46 Well, I've been staring at this piece for the last couple of hours here and I can't help but think if you put like some little caramel bits in it, it might be really good. Yeah. I think it's very I think you could do a lot of different variations on it and it would Yeah, it would be good. Yeah, excellent, Thank you so much. It was really good. Well, one last thing before we go. I was thinking this morning about how hard you work on our podcast. We both work on it really hard. But you, obviously everyone knows, have a demanding full time job that you also excel at. And there's a lot of podcasts like the husband wife podcasts the wife does most of the work and the husband just has to show up. And you know, I have a few quips, right, How do you feel about that?

1:13:26 Yeah, I think those guys are all late, you know. I mean I just met, Like, are you Like, huh, maybe I should just show up pull you know, just pull up on recording day. And I love it. That's really to do it, because I really do love it. I love doing the research. I get totally engrossed, like this is a case was a great example, Like I really loved reading all the books about it. Yeah. I just wanted to check in with you because you do work a lot, and you sit in your little office in your little chair, you know, for a lot of hours every day, and sometimes they just worry about you. So I'm going to take a day or so long. Now. Yeah, you should absolutely worked really hard. Let's go see the naked gun. Good idea. Let's go have some fun and have some laughs and some popcorn. Could have popcorn. Yeah. Well, we hope that you are having a wonderful day wherever you are.

1:14:14 We appreciate your support so much. We sure do please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, and if you haven't before, if you would consider leaving us a five star review on Apple or Spotify, it means so much to us. You can find us on social media or send us an email at lovemarykillat gmail dot com. Until next time, don't cure a husband and don't kill your wife. The bank to the