May 10, 2026

Mother's Day Bonus Episode: Theresa Jimmie Francine Knorr

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

In 1964, an 18-year-old mother named Theresa Cross Sanders claimed self-defense after killing her abusive husband. Over the next two decades, Theresa—often a single parent—built a life in Northern California, raising six children behind closed doors in a home ruled by fear, violence, addiction, and control.

As the abuse escalated, two of her daughters vanished a year apart without anyone reporting them missing. Years later, the surviving children began breaking their silence, exposing one of the most disturbing family murder cases in California history.

Today's snack: Strawberry Banana Cookies (from the mind of Emma)

Support us on Patreon

Sources:

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:00.640
Hi.

2
00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.319
I'm Tina and I'm Emma. If there's one thing that

3
00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:07.080
we've learned it over twenty years of parenting. Sometimes you

4
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:09.599
want to kill your mom, and sometimes you feel like

5
00:00:09.679 --> 00:00:27.640
killing your kid. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill Hi Mom,

6
00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:31.039
Hi Emma, how are you. I'm good. I'm so excited

7
00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:33.079
that you came back for the third year.

8
00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:35.600
I know, I can't believe you let me back, and

9
00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:39.560
I think it's the other way around anyway. I really

10
00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:41.079
like the color of your sweater today.

11
00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:46.039
Thank you. Did you see my sneakers that Matt, Yes, yeah.

12
00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:49.880
And did you see that my water bottle matches my sneakers?

13
00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:51.479
Well, you pointed it out.

14
00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:53.920
I know I dressed extra cool today because I thought

15
00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.520
that you'd have like one of those cameras where they're

16
00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.799
you're taking a video and it shows up on Instagram.

17
00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:04.159
Reels in Keith's eyes, Keith's eye, Keith Morrison's Yeah, his

18
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:06.920
eyes are cameras. So we are being filmed, oh yes,

19
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.439
being streamed to one hundred and twenty countries live.

20
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:12.879
He does give me the feeling that I'm being watched.

21
00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.280
He looks a little smug, doesn't he. You really die?

22
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:18.959
I've been thinking recently we need to get another one

23
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.200
of the dateline cast members, but I don't know who

24
00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.319
we would nick next. Dad is here too, but he's

25
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.640
just you know, he's recording us, so he's behind the scenes.

26
00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:32.359
He doesn't have a microphone, but he just waved. What's

27
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:34.239
new in your life? You've been busy lately.

28
00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.280
Yeah, there's been a lot going on. So I moved

29
00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.280
out almost a year ago, and.

30
00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:42.560
Your mother's heart Just kidding.

31
00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:43.879
I'm still sorry about that.

32
00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:47.599
I'm so happy for you, and I.

33
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:48.640
Am still teaching preschool.

34
00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:49.159
Uh huh.

35
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.719
And I also got a kitten just last weekend.

36
00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:53.959
We haven't met her yet. I'm a little sad about that,

37
00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:56.439
but you said she doesn't like car rides. You have

38
00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.959
an older cat too, What are your What are cat's names?

39
00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.120
So the older one is named Bitsy. She's about two

40
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.400
years old, and Basil is the baby, about eight or

41
00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:06.280
nine weeks old.

42
00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:10.039
Funny, your cats are both bee cats and our cats

43
00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:12.840
are both sea cats. I know Masma and Clover I

44
00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.960
have a friendlier than our cats.

45
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:21.439
Yeah, well, they're both tabbies and our cats are your

46
00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.360
cats black cats, And I know that's kind of a

47
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.919
stereotype of like tabbies to be pretty sweet and friendly

48
00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:33.159
cats more snugly, and then black cats are kind of

49
00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.840
on the more skiddish side, but they show affection in

50
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:38.280
their own special ways. Of course.

51
00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:41.960
Is there anything that you missed from living in our house?

52
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.240
If I had to name one thing, it would probably

53
00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:49.439
be the variety of snacks you keep in the pantry.

54
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:51.919
Although we have way fewer snacks than we used to,

55
00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:53.280
is that true?

56
00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.479
I don't know. I still find quite a lot in there.

57
00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.560
A lot of it is leftover podcast snacks, but that

58
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.039
is the thing you do when you come before you

59
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.520
even hugger. Sometimes you open the refrigerator before you look

60
00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.599
in the pantry. But yeah, you guys do not have

61
00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:10.840
as much food in your house as us.

62
00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.280
No, I mean it's I think that's probably the biggest

63
00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.039
adjustment when you move out for the first time is

64
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.759
figuring out how to buy groceries for yourself. Like everything

65
00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.319
I buy, I just know, like I have to eat this,

66
00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:25.400
so I know I have to be like one ten

67
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.120
percent serious that I'm going to consume something. Right, you

68
00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:31.360
don't want to waste any time or you're ready, I mean, yeah, exactly.

69
00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.719
Little brother is figuring that out this week and that's

70
00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:39.199
been interesting. Yes, I hear he's experimenting with beans these days. Well,

71
00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:42.319
he wants to make things from a scratch, which is great.

72
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.680
But I tried to tell him it's okay to buy

73
00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:48.080
some prepackaged stuff. But I think you brought me a snack,

74
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:48.560
didn't you.

75
00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:54.199
I did. I'm a little nervous about this snack. So

76
00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.919
it's been a busy time lately. As we said, it's Macember.

77
00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:02.719
That's a hard time for parents and teachers. There's so

78
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:04.000
much going on it is.

79
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.680
So I kind of looked at what I did happen

80
00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.039
to have in my pantry baking wife, And do you

81
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:15.639
want to see the snack first? Or should I describe

82
00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.240
it to you?

83
00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:18.600
Usually we just taste it.

84
00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:22.279
Okay, Well, I feel like I owe you an explanation. Okay, Okay,

85
00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:24.759
Well I'm gonna show you right now what I'm prepared

86
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.560
for you looks good. It might look better than it tastes.

87
00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:33.800
Okay, they're beautiful. Actually. Yeah, So to backtrack a little bit,

88
00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.399
I do have a bone to pick with you that

89
00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:37.959
I wanted to do on the air. Okay, because what

90
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.639
did you tell me recently? Like you and your boyfriend

91
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.360
were going somewhere and you're like, oh, well, we we're

92
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.600
the cookie people. We like to make cookies whatever, wherever

93
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:46.959
we go.

94
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.240
I did say that, and that comment deeply offended you.

95
00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.000
I know, yeah, because I'm the cookie mom.

96
00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.639
But in my opinion, I feel like you should be

97
00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:57.480
proud of me. It's like you're passing on.

98
00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.399
I feel like you're a biscuit girl or could be

99
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.279
the cupcake cutie or something like that. But to take

100
00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:05.920
cookies from me, it just, you know, I feel like

101
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:07.639
I'm redundant.

102
00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:11.319
Then well, you know what they say? Know what do

103
00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:16.360
they say that copying someone is actually a deep form

104
00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:17.160
of admiration?

105
00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.000
Is that what they say? Yes, it is, all right,

106
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.839
will tell me about the snacks that you brought. Those

107
00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.920
cookies are beautiful. I have to say, they're very cute.

108
00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:28.160
Well I'm not sure if the story behind them will

109
00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:31.879
make you want to eat them more or less, but okay. Anyway,

110
00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:38.399
sometimes you get a recipe from chatchypetea or out of

111
00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:40.639
your own brain and you make things up as you

112
00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.120
go along. And I've always like, that's not a good idea,

113
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.800
but you really do like to do your own thing.

114
00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:50.399
Yes, well, this is kind of where our differences lie

115
00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:55.040
in the pickI making practice. I'd like to be inventive,

116
00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:58.800
and I like to experiment with flavors, and sometimes I

117
00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.720
just want to try something, and I just kind of

118
00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:05.800
combine recipes that I already know to invent something new.

119
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:07.240
Anyway, Okay, so what are these?

120
00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.240
So these are? I don't know if any of you

121
00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:14.399
are familiar with the Dolly Parton baking line, but I

122
00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:18.480
happened to purchase some of her cake mix the other day.

123
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.480
I purchased her strawberry cake and her banana cake, and.

124
00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.439
I thought, oh, it would be pretty.

125
00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:27.040
Interesting to make strawberry banana cookies using this cake mix.

126
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.360
So that is what you're.

127
00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.439
Really supporting the Dolly line. I've never bought any of

128
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:33.040
those mixes.

129
00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.600
I've had her corn bread before, which is we actually

130
00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.720
serve it at the preschool sometimes and it's actually really good.

131
00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:41.079
So would you like to try one of these?

132
00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:42.879
Sure, they're very pretty.

133
00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.040
I know you're not a big banana fan, so maybe

134
00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.680
you just want to to the pink side. I okay,

135
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:48.839
I like banana bacods.

136
00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:49.279
What do you mean?

137
00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:49.800
Okay?

138
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.040
Oh, you did make some something banana recently that I.

139
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.399
Yeah, So that's why I was worried it would be

140
00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:57.920
I like to make banana bread, ok, and.

141
00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:06.639
We'll posed a picture because they are really pretty Okay, But.

142
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.439
What did you think?

143
00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.079
I mean, I'm so glad that you are supporting Dolly

144
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.519
Parton because I love Dolly. Do you want to tell

145
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.319
everyone about your obsession with banana? And I think you said, oh,

146
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:19.800
you don't like banana as much as I do. I

147
00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:23.399
love like banana bread, banana cream pie, banana pudding. But

148
00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:24.319
what do you like?

149
00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:28.720
So? I am a big fan of artificial banana, Yes,

150
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.759
I own. Maybe it's like a point of pride with you.

151
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.000
It's I have a bit of a collection. So I

152
00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:41.040
have maybe every kind of shower product you could imagine

153
00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:46.439
in artificial banana scent. I have banana perfumes. I have

154
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.720
always been a big fan of banana candy, like banana

155
00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.879
runs to banana lafy, taffy, and just the flavor in general.

156
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.240
I don't know. It just scratches something in my brain.

157
00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.839
And I am not a fan of artificial most things,

158
00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.240
but especially artificial banana. So half the cookie strawberry apart

159
00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.600
was pretty good. But because you literally made two different

160
00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.199
cakes mixes and blended them together, right, Yes, yeah, I

161
00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.319
like the strawberry apart. I didn't really like the banana

162
00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:16.360
part because that banana aftertaste was pretty kind of bad. Yeah,

163
00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.439
but you did a good job, as hard as your

164
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.319
mom to be like, well, I didn't love what you

165
00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.120
just made, but yeah, thank you.

166
00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.600
I appreciated. But that I see something else you brought

167
00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.600
me over there, So I brought you a slice of

168
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.120
duff By chocolate cake in case it didn't work out

169
00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:32.759
with the cookies.

170
00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:35.080
No, the cookies are great. Thank you so much.

171
00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:36.480
You're very welcome.

172
00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.320
Last year when we did the Mother's Day episode, it

173
00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.519
was a really horrible case, and this year the case

174
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.480
is also really horrible. It's about one of the worst

175
00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:49.080
moms you're ever going to hear about. Are you ready

176
00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:53.120
to hear the story of Theresa Jimmy, Francine Cross Sanders,

177
00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:59.519
nor Pulliam Harris. I suppose I am may Belle Harrison

178
00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.960
fort V five was driving down the road early on Tuesday,

179
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:08.000
July seventeenth, nineteen eighty four, just before sunrise. In the distance,

180
00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:11.759
she saw a fire burning near the creek in Squaw Valley, California,

181
00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:17.159
now known as Palisade's Tahoe. Someone had already called it in,

182
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.320
and an officer had briefly checked the scene, deciding the

183
00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.559
fire was small and would likely burn itself out. But

184
00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:26.679
as the sky began to lighten, something didn't sit right.

185
00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:29.840
Maybell pulled over and stepped out of her car to

186
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.919
get a closer look. Within seconds, she gasped, then turned

187
00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:36.519
and ran back to the road, frantically flagging down. The

188
00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:40.840
next passing vehicle, a big rig driver named Robert Eden,

189
00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.679
stopped after hearing what she'd seen. He grabbed a fire

190
00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.639
extinguisher and a bucket from his truck and ran toward

191
00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:51.320
the flames. What they found wasn't a brush fire. A

192
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.480
young woman had been set ablaze. Her body was badly burned,

193
00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:59.000
but half of her pretty face had been spared. Duc

194
00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.159
tape bound her wrist and covered her mouth. There was

195
00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:04.159
no need to check her vital signs. It would have

196
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.679
been impossible for her to have survived the fire. After

197
00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:12.720
the sun Rose detectives and investigators arrived to begin their work. Sadly,

198
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.080
it wasn't uncommon for bodies to be dumped in this

199
00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:20.360
corridor along Interstate eighty near the California Nevada border. The

200
00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.039
creek side and surrounding forest were searched for evidence, and

201
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.639
the charred remains of the fire was clear some of

202
00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.279
the victim's belongings had been burned with her. Among the

203
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:34.360
thirty items recovered were a toothbrush, diapers, a size thirty

204
00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.559
two sea j C. Pennybros. A pair of Gloria Vanderbilt jeans,

205
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.200
a scarf, high heeled shoes, black fliplops, a copy of

206
00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:46.159
twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, and a paperback romance novel.

207
00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.039
Investigators were fixated and the diapers found at the scene

208
00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:53.440
worried that a child was at risk. Prince were lifted

209
00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:56.200
from several items, but there was no match in the system.

210
00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.919
She appeared to be married. She wore a white gold wedding.

211
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.440
She was dressed in a white sweater, corduroy pants, a

212
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.919
brown corduroy jacket, and a yellow windbreaker. This young woman

213
00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.600
clearly had a history a life, but in the morning light,

214
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.759
no one knew her name. She was taken to the

215
00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.679
Placer County Morgue, nearly one hundred miles from where she

216
00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:22.080
was found. Ninety one percent of her body had been burned.

217
00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:25.320
At first, investigators believed that she was in her late

218
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:29.519
teens or early twenties, but a closer examination told a

219
00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:33.879
different story. Her wisdom teeth were still impacted, suggesting that

220
00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:38.639
she was likely between fourteen and seventeen years old. Devastatingly,

221
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:42.320
it appeared that she had been burned alive. Ten days

222
00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:45.279
passed and she still had no name. No one nearby

223
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.039
had reported anyone missing, and her fingerprints returned no match.

224
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.799
The Jane Does remains were placed in cold storage for

225
00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:57.360
ninety days in case new leads emerged. An artist created

226
00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.000
a rendering of what she may have looked like in life,

227
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.559
but no one came forward to claim her. On October

228
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.960
twenty fifth, nineteen eighty four, she was laid to rest.

229
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.440
It would take over eight years before someone finally came

230
00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.159
forward to claim her. About a year later, another young

231
00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:20.960
woman would be discovered under equally disturbing circumstances near Truckee, California,

232
00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.320
just ten to fifteen miles from where the first girl

233
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:27.519
had been found along the Interstate eighty corridor. Her body

234
00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:30.679
had been placed inside a cardboard box and left in

235
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.480
a remote area near the airport, as if some one

236
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.519
had intended for her to disappear without a trace. Investigators

237
00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.159
believed that she was a young woman in her early twenties,

238
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.639
small in stature, round five feet tall and just over

239
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.960
one hundred pounds, with a slight build. There were no

240
00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:51.039
personal items, no identification, nothing to point to who she was.

241
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.559
Like the girl found in the fire, no one had

242
00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.000
reported her missing. There were no calls, no searches, no

243
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.240
one asking where she had gone. She too became a

244
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.399
Jane Doe. At the time, investigators considered whether a passing

245
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.919
trucker might be responsible, an all too common theory for

246
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.240
bodies found along Interstate eighty, but the truth was far

247
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:15.919
closer to home. What do you think so far?

248
00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.960
Goodness, We're off to such a terrible start. Yeah, Jane

249
00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:21.399
does are heartbreaking. I know.

250
00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.879
In the nineteen fifties and sixties, Rio Linda, California, wasn't

251
00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:28.080
quite a town in the traditional sense. It was a

252
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.559
patchwork of dirt roads, modest homes, and wide stretches of

253
00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:34.840
land where families raised animals and may do with what

254
00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:39.200
they had. Just ten miles north of Sacramento, Rio Linda

255
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.720
was known for its farmland, wide open parcels where families

256
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.120
kept horses, raised animals, and lived a quieter, more rural

257
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.279
life shaped by working class families, many tied to nearby

258
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.720
McLellan Air Force Base, and others drawn by the promise

259
00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:57.639
of affordable land and a quieter life. Children grew up

260
00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:59.960
with a kind of freedom that's hard to imagine now,

261
00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.559
riding bikes down dusty roads, wandering along dry creek, and

262
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.600
learning early how to take care of themselves. It was

263
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.480
a place where neighbors knew each other, but not always deeply,

264
00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:14.559
where people valued independence and privacy, and where life moved

265
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:18.000
at its own, unhurried pace, simple on the surface, but

266
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.600
with enough distance between homes and between people for things

267
00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:25.240
to go unseen. Years later, Rio Linda would be thrust

268
00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.919
into the national spotlight when Rush Lumbaugh repeatedly used the

269
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.279
town as a punchline, portraying the residents as a hicks

270
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.720
who needed things explained more simply, I actually am somewhat

271
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.200
familiar with this area. I did AmeriCorps on Triple C

272
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:44.639
back in twenty nineteen, and one of our service projects

273
00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:49.759
was stationed in the area. And there's definitely some spookiness.

274
00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:51.360
What do you mean by spookiness.

275
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.279
There's some interesting people you'll meet.

276
00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.519
Like rural California is different, right, and the people are.

277
00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:02.679
There's still a lot of hippies and things like that

278
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:04.000
in that area. Is that what you mean.

279
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.720
Yes, it's an interesting blend of older hippies and more

280
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:10.159
conservative people.

281
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.080
I remember you used to tell a story about you

282
00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:16.399
met a woman named Starlight Compost.

283
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:22.799
Yes, we met a lot of interesting people with very

284
00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:29.440
unusual names. In nineteen fifty three, eight year old Teresa Cross,

285
00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.240
her older sister Rosemary, along with their parents, James and

286
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.320
Swannie Gay, moved to Rio Linda, California. James worked on

287
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.200
a dairy farm as a cheesemaker, while Swannie Gay took

288
00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.519
care of their girls. Later she worked out a pencil factory.

289
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:46.879
James was quiet and on the stern side, while Swannie

290
00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.000
was a buliant, friendly and a little bit mystical. She

291
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.399
had visions and read tarot cards. In one of her visions,

292
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.559
she saw Teresa with three daughters and three sons. Depending

293
00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.320
on who you ask, people remember the family differ diferently.

294
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.879
Some described the Cross household as distant, lacking warmth, although

295
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.960
there were no reports of abuse or outright unkindness. Others

296
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.879
recalled a heaviness in the home, perhaps left behind by

297
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.720
a previous resident who had hanged himself on the back porch,

298
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:19.000
leaving behind the stain of his discontent. Swannie Gay kept

299
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.720
a tight household, expecting both of her daughters to cook

300
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.759
and clean while she supervised. A decade earlier, Swannie Gay

301
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.200
had been married to a man named Harry Tapp, a

302
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:32.399
railroad engineer. He died in a boiler explosion. They had

303
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.639
two children, a son named William and a daughter named Clara.

304
00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.240
She met and married Jim Cross in July nineteen forty two,

305
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.519
when she was thirty four and he was thirty seven.

306
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.440
Jim made his contempt for his step children clear. Bill

307
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.799
moved out as soon as he turned eighteen. Clara wasn't

308
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.000
as lucky. He charged her sixty dollars a month for rent,

309
00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.240
taking most of what she earned waitressing.

310
00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.120
Sixty dollars a month then would be eight hundred dollars today.

311
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:00.399
That's a lot of money.

312
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.879
Wow, I'm so glad you never charged me wrent. After

313
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.880
getting into legal trouble for marrying a fifteen year old girl,

314
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:08.400
Bill joined the navy.

315
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:10.680
Oh that's I know.

316
00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.640
It's creepy, right, yeah, very creepy. But people got married

317
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.440
a lot younger back then, I know, but still fifteen ugh. Anyway,

318
00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.720
he was later discharged and then enlisted in the army,

319
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.000
where he was again discharged, this time for theft. He

320
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.279
later married and fathered three sons before he was again

321
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.200
in trouble and then spent a good chunk of time

322
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.720
in prison. Jim felt vindicated that he'd been right about

323
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.759
Bill being a bad seed. When Jim was diagnosed with

324
00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:44.960
Parkinson's disease, his personality began to change. He grew angry

325
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.160
and verbally abusive toward his wife and his teenage daughters.

326
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.519
As his condition worsened, he could no longer work and

327
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.519
became increasingly dependent on them for care. Teresa was Swannie

328
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.839
Gay's clear favorite, and the two were especially close. But

329
00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:01.599
with girls her own age, Teresa could be off putting,

330
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:07.720
and she struggled to maintain close friendships, honestly saying Teresa, however,

331
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.640
from an early age, boys noticed her and she enjoyed

332
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.839
the attention. Rosemary, by contrast, was kind and made friends easily.

333
00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:19.599
In May nineteen sixty one, Swannie Gay, diabetic, overweight and

334
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.599
long warrant about her weak heart, collapsed and died of

335
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.839
a heart attack as she was leaving the grocery store Teresa,

336
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.680
just one week shy of her fifteenth birthday, was there.

337
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.440
She tried to catch her mother before she hit the ground.

338
00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.640
She was fifty three years old. Watching her mother slip away,

339
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.799
holding her hand as it grew cold while waiting for

340
00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.839
the ambulance was traumatic for Teresa. Afterward, she began to

341
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.960
act out. Rosemary tried to hold things together, but she

342
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.839
was only seventeen, still in high school and working, and

343
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.640
the weight of it all was too much for her

344
00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:53.240
to manage. A few weeks after Swannie Gay's death, Teresa

345
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:55.599
convinced her friend Janet to run away with her and

346
00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.759
her boyfriend. They were only gone a few hours before

347
00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.319
he fell asleep behind the wind and rolled the car.

348
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.839
The teens were forced to return home, but Teresa's father

349
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.759
hadn't even noticed she was gone. Still immersed in his grief,

350
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.839
Rosemary decided she didn't want to be Teresa's parent and

351
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.559
Jim's caregiver. She moved out and got married in January

352
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.119
nineteen sixty two, when she became pregnant. She miscarried, but

353
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.440
later had two sons, though her relationships with her sister

354
00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.000
and father remained strange.

355
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.160
All right, So Teresa is our main character. And her

356
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.279
sister is Rosemary, and they have this strained relationship. They

357
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.519
are about two years apart. But Rosemary is more responsible,

358
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.759
and you know, she's the typical older sister and she

359
00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.559
has just you know, moved out of the house and

360
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.079
she wants to start her own life. Because Teresa was,

361
00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:50.599
you know, kind of an average belligerent teenager and she

362
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:53.559
was tired of taking care of her sick father and

363
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:54.400
her sister.

364
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.480
Right, and she must be going through a lot of

365
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.640
PTSD after that event with her mother dying grocery store.

366
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.839
That's a lot of people pointed out that the only

367
00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.160
person that Teresa was ever really close to was her mom.

368
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:17.119
We'll be back after a break, But Teresa thought the

369
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.200
best way to escape her situation was to get married.

370
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.160
In September nineteen sixty two, at just sixteen, she eloped

371
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.559
to Nevada to marry Clifford Clyde Sanders, twenty one, who

372
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.720
worked as a carpenter. Her father gave his permission. Ten

373
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.359
months after their wedding, Teresa gave birth to their first child,

374
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:42.480
a son she named Howard, and ironically, Rosemary gave birth

375
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.720
the next day at the same hospital with her first son.

376
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:51.279
Soon the relationship turned volatile, often because of jealousy, and

377
00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:55.839
Clifford became abusive to Teresa. When Teresa became pregnant with

378
00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.799
her second child, cliff questioned if he was the father. Furious,

379
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.359
Teresa took the baby and moved out to a small

380
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.079
house in the nearby ruble town of Galt. Soon after,

381
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.000
Teresa and cliff reunited, but the relationship was no calmer.

382
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.720
During one particularly heated argument, Teresa grabbed a shotgun and

383
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.279
shot her husband. She ran to the neighbor's house, still

384
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:22.240
in her night gown. The neighbor was a police officer,

385
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.839
and he noted the bruises on her petite frame. She

386
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.279
asked him to check on Cliff, not sure what his

387
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.200
condition was, but the one shot proved to be fatal,

388
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:37.279
and Teresa was arrested for his murder. In nineteen sixty four,

389
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.160
women technically had the right to claim self defense, but

390
00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.119
the legal system rarely recognized the realities of domestic abuse,

391
00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:49.039
making those claims incredibly difficult to prove. So even though Teresa,

392
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.480
just eighteen and pregnant, had been a victim at the

393
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.160
hand of her now dead, twenty three year old husband,

394
00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.319
she stood trial for his murder.

395
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.599
Wait, So, just to clarify, Teresa's only eighteen here, and

396
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.480
they've been married for two years now.

397
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.359
She was sixteen when they got married.

398
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.920
Okay, Wow, that still blows my mind. I can't imagine

399
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.240
right being in that situation at that point in my life.

400
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:16.400
When she testified, Teresa looked hopelessly young and vulnerable on

401
00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.759
the witness stand. She claimed that her husband tortured her,

402
00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.880
punching her in the face and burning her with cigarettes.

403
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.200
But Cliff's brother and sister testified that Teresa was a

404
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:29.759
terror and that Cliff had been scared of her. She

405
00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.759
was jealous and vindictive. The judge took Teresa into his chambers,

406
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:37.200
where she showed him the cigarette burns on her body.

407
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.559
The trial took twelve days, but it took the jury

408
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.680
less than two hours to find Teresa not guilty. She

409
00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.759
thanked and hugged the jurors after the verdict. Later, people

410
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.319
pointed to Teresa's acquittal as a pivotal moment in her life,

411
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.359
when she realized that she could get away with just

412
00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:58.799
about anything. While Teresa had been in jail, a friend

413
00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:02.759
had driven Little Howard to her sisters, Rosemary was smart

414
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.759
and a hard worker, but her husband was a bit

415
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.279
of a lump and couldn't keep a job for long.

416
00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.039
They lived in a small trailer with their one year

417
00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:13.000
old son and didn't have room or money for another

418
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.599
mouth to feed. While Teresa awaited trial, Rosemary arranged for

419
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:21.039
Howard to stay with an acquaintance, a newly married couple

420
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:25.039
in their forties, b and Craig Howard. They quickly grew

421
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:28.480
attached to the toddler, who showed signs of neglect, but

422
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.640
he began to thrive under Bee's care. When Teresa returned

423
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:37.359
for Howard three months later, Bee was heartbroken. The Howards

424
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.240
allowed Teresa to stay with them while she reconnected with

425
00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:42.599
her son and tried to get back on her feet.

426
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.559
She agreed to their rules, no dating, go to school,

427
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.119
help care for Howie, and contribute around the house. Craig

428
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.359
later said she was the laziest human you ever saw.

429
00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.400
She'd sit in a rocking chair and just rock and

430
00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.200
rock and rock. Just couldn't hardly stand her. But she

431
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.720
was a good look in Gail. He added. She didn't

432
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.200
cook a thing, she didn't do a thing.

433
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.440
It's hard to imagine somebody being lazy back in the

434
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:16.839
day without having a smartphone to scroll on like sitting

435
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.160
in a rocking chair and rocking like nowadays, that would

436
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.319
be like probably good for you. That would be like meditating.

437
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.440
Yeah. When Teresa did find work, it was as a

438
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:29.200
nude model for a college art class. During that time,

439
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.440
she began an affair with the instructor. And remember, Teresa,

440
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.680
she's working as a nude model and she's pregnant. She's

441
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.519
probably like six months pregnant at this point. Then she

442
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:44.039
began dating a man, Estelle Lee Thornberry, a former soldier

443
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.519
who'd been injured while in the army after he dove

444
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:51.920
headfirst into shallow water that left him a quadriplegic. He

445
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.759
received a generous check from the government each month and

446
00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:57.680
was able to shower Teresa with gifts and give her

447
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.480
money for new clothes and the salon. On March thirteenth,

448
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.039
nineteen sixty five, Teresa had her second child, a daughter

449
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.440
she named Sheila Gay. The Howards would do just about

450
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.960
anything to keep little Howard and baby Sheila living with them,

451
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.279
but living with Teresa proved too challenging. Teresa and her

452
00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:19.680
children moved in with Lee, but almost immediately she began

453
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:23.920
seeing other men behind his back. He found used condoms

454
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.960
and underwear in his car. She'd take the kids with

455
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.799
her to bars at night and leave them in the car.

456
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:31.720
How mad are you right now?

457
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.920
Ick? That's so gross.

458
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:38.440
Witnesses say that Teresa heavily favored Howie over Sheila, even

459
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.200
though she was younger and a tiny baby. She often

460
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:46.880
ignored her. An ex boyfriend said Teresa hated her from

461
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.640
day one because she was pregnant with Sheila. When she

462
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.680
killed Cliff, she blamed a lot of that on Sheila.

463
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:57.160
People recalled that Sheila received spankings as young as eighteen

464
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.480
months old, or what her mother deemed as miss Bay behavior.

465
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:03.960
If she spilled a glass of milk or left crumbs

466
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.240
when she's eighteen months old, she would be yelled at

467
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:08.599
or and sometimes spanked.

468
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:10.599
That makes me want to cry, Lee.

469
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:13.920
End of the relationship after about a year. His condition

470
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:18.279
required extensive care, and Teresa wasn't interested in providing the

471
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.599
level of support he needed. Next, she moved in with

472
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.599
a seventeen year old marine named Bob Norr. They met

473
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.440
when he was on leave over Christmas nineteen sixty five.

474
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:32.599
Bob was quickly head over heels for Teresa. He wasn't

475
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.440
aware of her complicated past. Teresa left the children for

476
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.640
three weeks and flew to Hawaii, where Bob was stationed

477
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.680
before deploying to Vietnam. Before he left, she told him

478
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.839
that she was pregnant with his child. Bob promised to

479
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.720
marry her and take care of the children when he returned.

480
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:53.640
So I said that Bob was seventeen years old. Back then,

481
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:55.519
a lot of people would lie about their age so

482
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:59.680
they could get into the military and fight. So Bob

483
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.039
was shy twice in Vietnam, neither wound life threatening, but

484
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.960
both painful. His third injury was far worse. An explosion

485
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.799
peppered his body with shrapnel in thirty seven places, leaving

486
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.039
him hospitalized for months. Though he was no longer fit

487
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.160
for combat, he was still required to return to duty

488
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.440
and was reassigned to serve in California. The injuries left

489
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.119
him with permanent nerve damage. Despite the pain and suffering,

490
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:28.279
Bob was happy to be home and now free to

491
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:32.480
marry Teresa, who was seven months pregnant. On July ninth,

492
00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:35.839
nineteen sixty six, they were married in Carson City, Nevada.

493
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:40.079
Bob's parents warned him that he was making a huge mistake.

494
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.400
He quickly learned that they were right. Teresa was extremely jealous, moody,

495
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:50.279
and controlling. After witnessing the cruel way Teresa treated Sheila,

496
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.799
Evie and pat works Bob's aunt and uncle, offered to

497
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.279
take her in under the guise of helping her now

498
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.640
heavily pregnant. Teresa once is a punishment, Teresa shaved her

499
00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:04.680
toddler daughter's head. That was a punishment that she would

500
00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:07.599
use over and over through the years. If she was

501
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:09.920
unhappy with her kids, she would shave their head.

502
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.920
That sounds like the flowers in the attic type tactic.

503
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.119
I never read flowers in the attic, but you did.

504
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.240
I think we talked about it actually on maybe our

505
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.920
first Money's Day episode. It's something I think about more

506
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:22.799
than I'd like to admit.

507
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.119
Someday I'll readid It took time, but in the care

508
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.400
of the works Is, Sheila began speaking in full sentences

509
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:32.720
after about a year. Teresa, who was likely worried that

510
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:35.640
the works As would ask for their share of Shila's

511
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:39.359
Social Security benefits from her father, demanded that her daughter

512
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:44.279
be returned. Teresa's third child and Bob's first, Susan Marlene,

513
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:48.119
Nore was born on September twenty seventh, nineteen sixty six.

514
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.000
Three months later, she was pregnant again.

515
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.000
So what happened to Sheila?

516
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.960
She went back living with Teresa. So far we have Howie,

517
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.359
who was the oldest, you know, he went to live

518
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.160
with those people and he was better off. And then

519
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.519
Sheila went to live with the Workses and she was

520
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.000
better off. But they now that they're all living with

521
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:12.359
Teresa now, okay, and I wish that was not the case.

522
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.599
Bob perceived a new assignment from the Marines as a

523
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.119
burial escort, which required him to travel all over the US,

524
00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:24.559
which tormented his jealous wife. William Robert Nor was born

525
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:28.799
on September fifteenth, nineteen sixty seven. Soon after Bob was

526
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.720
promoted and the family moved to the San Francisco area,

527
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.599
Teresa was pregnant again by the next summer. One day,

528
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.039
while Bob was at work, Teresa moved out of the

529
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.680
house and back to Rio Linda with her four children.

530
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.839
She told her husband that she was tired of his cheating,

531
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.000
and he maintains that he had never once been unfaithful.

532
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:50.839
They got back.

533
00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:55.680
Together right before Robert Wallace Nor Junior was born New

534
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:57.519
Year's nineteen sixty eight.

535
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.000
Okay, so he is their fifth child, their.

536
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:05.680
Fifth child, and she's twenty two or twenty three. Wow,

537
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:09.240
so you're way behind girl. Soon after Bob's time with

538
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.960
the Marines came to an end, he struggled to find

539
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.039
steady work and eventually took a job pumping gas at

540
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:19.880
a service station. Meanwhile, Theresa opened credit card after credit card,

541
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.640
quickly maxing them out. Raising five children was expensive, and

542
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.799
she had a taste for the best of everything. By

543
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.440
June nineteen sixty nine, the marriage had run out of steam,

544
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:35.599
and Theresa filed for divorce on grounds of extreme cruelty,

545
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.240
but soon after the two decided to give it another try.

546
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.680
She dismissed the divorce filing, and together they made plans

547
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:48.000
to move to Washington State. Bob worked two minimum wage jobs,

548
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.240
but it wasn't enough to keep the family afloat. Like

549
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:54.400
many Vietnam veterans, he returned home to a country deeply

550
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:58.759
divided over the war. Some Americans unfairly directed their anger

551
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:02.960
towards the soldiers themselves, and for matty veterans. Finding steady,

552
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:07.000
well paying work proved difficult, and Bob's injuries from the

553
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:09.960
Vietnam War left him in constant pain and made it

554
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.559
difficult for him to move. He applied for medical disability

555
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:17.160
and was eventually approved. He never adjusted to the weather

556
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.519
in Washington State, and as soon as the benefits came through,

557
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:25.039
they moved back to California and Teresa was once again pregnant.

558
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.359
Bob returned to work at the gas station, this time

559
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.920
learning the trade, working on cars and moving towards a

560
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:37.880
management role. Teresa's jealousy was always worse during pregnancy. She

561
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.480
wouldn't even allow him to watch television shows that featured women.

562
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.559
By the summer of nineteen seventy, Bob was officially done

563
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.160
with the marriage. He began dating a woman named Georgia Desuza, who,

564
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.720
unlike Theresa, had a sweet personality and loved to laugh.

565
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.960
They were married by the end of the year. Soon

566
00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.000
Bob noticed that Teresa was stalking them whenever they were

567
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.240
on a date. She called Bob and tried to win

568
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:07.559
him back, jealous at his new happiness, but he remained firm.

569
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:11.319
Even when their fourth child, Teresa Marie Nor, was born

570
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:15.079
on August fifth, nineteen seventy, he refused to see her,

571
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:19.960
convinced that she wasn't his, so she named her sixth

572
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.799
child after herself. But we will call her Terry from

573
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:24.880
for the rest of the case.

574
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:32.839
Okay, okay, interesting choice. And also Swannie Gay's prediction was confirmed.

575
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.200
She had three sons and three daughters. Yes, and she

576
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.440
is afradially done having children. I don't want to give

577
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.039
a spoiler, but I know everyone's probably like, holy cow,

578
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.759
she cannot handle another child at this point. I don't

579
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:48.839
know how she's doing it already. I mean, she's definitely

580
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.119
not the world's best mother.

581
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.079
She probably doesn't have yet. The world's best mom coffee mug,

582
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.119
she probably doesn't have that. I don't have that either.

583
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:00.599
Actually, well, you're not exactly a coffee drinker, but I'm

584
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.079
sure I've gotten you lots of sweet gifts over the years.

585
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.279
Oh yeah, but none of them say world's best mom.

586
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:11.359
Well it's not Mother's Day quite yet. So Teresa, now

587
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:14.319
twenty five, met her next husband while working part time

588
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:19.039
at a topless bar called Little Joe Ortega's. His name

589
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.880
was Ron Pulliam, He was twenty eight and he worked

590
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:26.279
on the railroad. The two married on March twenty seventh,

591
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:30.200
nineteen seventy one, in Reno, Nevada. He became the instant

592
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.519
father to six children, ranging in age from six months

593
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:37.759
to eight years old. Terry, the youngest girl, remembers Ron fondly.

594
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:40.480
I was his kid, and he treated me like his kid.

595
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:43.720
He'd say, how's daddy's little girl, and he'd pick me

596
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:45.440
up and throw me in the air when he'd get

597
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.079
home from work. I remember going places with him in

598
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:51.480
his shiny red convertible. Ron was good to all of

599
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.960
the children. They went camping or to the beach tera.

600
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:57.359
It sounds like Ron gave them a little more fun

601
00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.720
than they had been having. He was like, let's take

602
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.559
the kid and do some fun stuff. You know, we

603
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:03.640
don't have to stay at home all the time. So

604
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:06.079
out of all of her husbands, I felt like he

605
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:10.079
might have been the best one. Teresa had refused to

606
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:13.079
allow Bob to see the children, but Ron convinced her

607
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:17.559
to allow visitation when the children returned. However, Teresa was

608
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.000
cruel to them if they admitted they had a good time,

609
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.320
or if they said anything kind about Georgia. When Georgia

610
00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:25.920
and Bob started their own family, he stopped asking to

611
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.840
see the children as much. Less than a year into

612
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.000
their marriage, Ron began to suspect Teresa was having an affair.

613
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:34.599
Was she still working at the Topless bar at this time?

614
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:35.679
I'm not sure.

615
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.719
I don't think so, okay, But she would disappear for hours,

616
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.280
sometimes days at a time. He filed for divorce, but

617
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.920
he worried about the children. Even after the separation, Ron

618
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.880
allowed Teresa and the kids to continue living with him.

619
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.519
It became clear that Teresa's problems went beyond being a

620
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:57.639
neglectful wife and mother. She was also an alcoholic, and

621
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:59.840
it didn't help that she met all of her boyfriends

622
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:04.320
in bars. When she drank, her personality changed. Anger bubbled

623
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:08.079
up inside her, spewing out red hot, her tongue sharpened,

624
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:09.360
and her words cut deep.

625
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:12.440
So if you are only meeting men in bars, what

626
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.159
kind of men are you probably meeting? Maybe not the

627
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:16.840
best ones or men that all.

628
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:19.159
It sounds like she's met pretty much all of her

629
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.239
men in bars because she used to take the children there.

630
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:23.639
I see a lot of the men that she's been

631
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:25.679
meeting also have issues with alcohol.

632
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:29.119
Right as Teresa and Ron's divorce was working its way

633
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:31.440
through the courts and the messy division of their debt,

634
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:36.239
she met her next boyfriend, another Ron Ron Bollington, to

635
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.079
get Teresa out of his house. Her ex husband, Ron Pulliam,

636
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.079
agreed to help her buy a new, four bedroom, two

637
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:47.000
bathroom house for twenty one thousand dollars. She was selling

638
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.960
Amway and couldn't really afford the house, but it wasn't

639
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:54.960
Ron's problem anymore, although Teresa wasn't done tormenting him. One day,

640
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.400
while Ron was at work, she and her new boyfriend

641
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:02.920
cleared out his house, furniture, appliances, everything, and moved it

642
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:06.280
to her new place. When he reported it, police called

643
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:10.960
it a civil matter and refused to intervene. After Ron Bullington,

644
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:15.400
something shifted into Resa. She stopped bringing men into the house.

645
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.039
She still went to bars, but the encounters stayed elsewhere, hotels,

646
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:24.599
never home. She had no interest in long term relationships

647
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:28.039
or marriage. As she approached her thirties, with a house

648
00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:31.199
full of children, no longer in that cute stage, it

649
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.320
became harder to find a boyfriend. She blamed them. Most

650
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.239
of her time was spent inside the house with her children,

651
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.280
a house she took pride in set in a walkable

652
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:44.599
neighborhood near the schools in town. For a woman who

653
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.079
had grown up dirt poor in the country. It felt

654
00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:50.320
like a step up, and even though they were still struggling,

655
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.599
she was able to provide for her children. When she

656
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.000
disappeared on her drinking binges, Howard was left in charge.

657
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.119
He took that role seriously, kind and with the siblings,

658
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.239
offering the care and steadiness their mother did not. As

659
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:08.360
the children grew older, Teresa's punishments became more extreme. She

660
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.400
locked one daughter inside a deep freezer and forced her

661
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:13.800
siblings to sit on the lid so she couldn't get out.

662
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.000
She made another stand naked in a corner and whipped

663
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:20.119
her with a willow branch. There was one rule above

664
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.480
all others. No one was to speak about what happened

665
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:28.119
inside the house, not the abuse, not the neglect, not

666
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.000
the lack of food or money. And if that rule

667
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.800
was broken, the punishment was severe. With six children, money

668
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.519
was always tight. Teresa began working as a nurse's aide

669
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:42.320
and enjoyed the work. She decided to become a registered nurse,

670
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.159
but it was hard to find the time to study

671
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.159
with six children and her trips to the bar. So

672
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:51.400
of anything, I have underplayed the punishments and the abuse

673
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.800
in this case, But can you believe some of her punishments.

674
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:55.519
They're horrible.

675
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.400
I know, it seems like she is not she's not

676
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:03.800
fit to be a mother, and it's really sad.

677
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.880
I mean, and she's still really young. She didn't have

678
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:08.400
the best upbringing.

679
00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:10.559
And remind me how old was she when her own

680
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:11.199
mother died.

681
00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:14.239
She was fifteen. It was days before her fifteenth birthday.

682
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:14.760
I believe.

683
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:15.400
Wow.

684
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.440
I think the financial instability played a big part in

685
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:22.039
this too. I mean, having to stretch the little money

686
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.519
that she had to six kids. It was probably just

687
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:29.480
constant stress. And she almost sounded like I didn't talk

688
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:33.239
about this much, but she was obsessive compulsive about cleaning,

689
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.119
like everything had to be really clean. And once she

690
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:39.440
was a nurse's age, she really learned how to disinfect things.

691
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.320
And she always wanted the house to be Christine, and

692
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:47.559
you know, with kids, it's really hard for that to happen. Right.

693
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.480
It seems like that's her only other outlet other than

694
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.599
going to the bar all the time. But it doesn't

695
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:56.440
seem to be helping much either. So Teresa met chat

696
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.559
Harris fifty two after he moved to California following the

697
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:02.639
end of his second marriage. He had worked for a

698
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.199
number of newspapers, including more than twenty years at the

699
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:10.199
Sun Telegraph in Pittsburgh, and had written three books, but

700
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:13.840
those days were behind him. After leaving his most recent

701
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.360
wife in Saint Louis, he relocated to California and began

702
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:20.400
working at the Sacramento Bee, hoping to spend the rest

703
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:22.800
of his life in a warmer climate. At more than

704
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:26.519
three hundred pounds some estimated four hundred, life was not

705
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.480
easy for Chat. He drank for hours each day, double

706
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:34.079
fisting drinks, smoked two packs of cigarettes, and ate a

707
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.159
horrible diet of processed food. I mean, what a catch, right,

708
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.119
I know, I'm surprised. I mean, I don't know what

709
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:42.639
these other fellows look like, but it seems like Teresa's

710
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:43.119
lowered her.

711
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.599
Standards a bit. Well, a lot of her husband's or

712
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:50.199
boyfriends were younger than her, so Chet is significantly older

713
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:54.400
and you know, like a pretty big, unhealthy guy. After

714
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:57.280
his move, he became a dedicated regular at the American

715
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:00.679
Legion in Rio Linda, choosing the seat at the end.

716
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:03.199
Of the bar. His friends from the time compared him

717
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:04.440
to Norm from Cheers.

718
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:06.960
Patty know who that is? You have no idea now,

719
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:07.440
I tell.

720
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:12.079
You, Patty Williams remembers Chat he was married at least

721
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:14.599
five or six times, which is amazing in itself because

722
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.880
I can't imagine five or six women in this world

723
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:19.480
who would want to marry him. He was pretty gross.

724
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.880
He married a woman after his move Roxy, but it

725
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.960
only lasted a month. He met Teresa during the summer

726
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.599
of nineteen seventy six. They started talking about marriage three

727
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:33.920
days after meeting and were married by August. It was

728
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.199
pretty clear that Teresa saw stability for her and her

729
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.280
children in Chet. He didn't have a lot of money,

730
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:43.559
but he had a study income. She sold her house

731
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:47.280
and moved to Chet's house in Rio Linda almost immediately.

732
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:51.519
She insisted he put an addition on the house. Chet, however,

733
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.719
wasn't cut out to be a stepfather. He made up

734
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:58.440
cruel nicknames for the children. He called Robert the Killer,

735
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:04.400
William the Coward, Teresa the Stripper, and Sheila Susan's dog.

736
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:05.800
It's horrible, isn't it.

737
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.920
Yeah. Susan was just ten, a pretty girl, and she

738
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:15.039
quickly became Chet's favorite. Teresa didn't know about Chet's dark

739
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.000
secrets when she and the children moved into his house.

740
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:20.800
He asked her to be nude much of the time

741
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.920
and took pictures of her so mom Teresa, hmm, okay,

742
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.960
not the child, No, not the child, but he did

743
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:33.519
have a fixation on susan Ah. His pornography addiction, coupled

744
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.760
with Teresa's refusal to give up the bar scene, quickly

745
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:40.039
ended the marriage. Her house was already an escrow, but

746
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:42.440
she pulled out of the deal and moved back in.

747
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.280
It would be her last attempt at marriage. Can you

748
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:49.159
imagine your marriage being so like? It was less than

749
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:53.360
three months? And this is what her third marriage?

750
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:56.280
Or is it I have lost track? I think it's

751
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.119
her four? Oh goodness.

752
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.800
The divorce, for Chat seemed to really do Teresa in.

753
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:06.679
She was never the same after her daughter. Terry said

754
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:10.840
she really went over the edge with chet Harris. After Harris,

755
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.039
she dated for a little while, but then she got

756
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.039
to the point where she couldn't date or Mary or anything.

757
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:20.000
She became mean, stopped seeing people, and developed a hair

758
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:24.119
trigger temper with her children, especially the girls. Once she

759
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:26.639
held a gun to Terry's temple and threatened to shoot

760
00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.480
her for absolutely no reason. The boys were rarely be

761
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:34.199
in or punished, but the girls were under constant attack,

762
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.880
and like many abusers, Teresa would later act as if

763
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.239
nothing had happened, sometimes even trying to make it up

764
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:44.239
to them. She read to the children, sometimes from the

765
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:47.079
Bible and other times from the books of her favorite author,

766
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:52.199
Stephen King. Teresa's favorite child was Billy or William. He

767
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.519
slept in her bed until he was twelve years old.

768
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:56.639
Yeah, we'll be.

769
00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:57.840
Right back after a break.

770
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.679
As Howard reached his teen years, he grew tall, looming

771
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.079
over his mother. Gone was the sweet boy who'd cared

772
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.679
for and protected his younger siblings. Now he teamed up

773
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.239
with Teresa and helped her punish them. When Terry was six,

774
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:24.920
he sexually assaulted her and then Susan, encouraging his brother

775
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:29.000
Robert to join in. When Teresa found out, she beat

776
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.559
him and he took it. Knowing that he was wrong,

777
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:37.039
Howard turned to drugs, pot, speed, mushrooms, and acid. He

778
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:40.280
wasn't greedy, willing to share his stash with his siblings,

779
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:44.920
even the youngest ones. Robert later said, I was doing

780
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.519
bong loads of marijuana at age seven or eight. I'm

781
00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:52.920
amazed I have any brain cells left. Howard also dealt drugs.

782
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.920
He shared the profits with his mother, so she didn't care.

783
00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.480
Sometimes she even stole pills from the patients at the

784
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:03.840
nursing home for him to sell. In November nineteen seventy nine,

785
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:07.559
a family tragedy brought Teresa and her sister Rosemary back

786
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.280
into each other's lives. They had seen each other only

787
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:13.320
a handful of times in the past twenty years, despite

788
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:17.360
living just miles apart. Rosemary's sixteen year old son, Joey,

789
00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:21.840
had died suddenly of acute myocarditis. He'd been healthy up

790
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.599
until his death. Though the sisters were never close, their sons,

791
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.320
Howard and Joseph or in just one day apart, attended

792
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.960
the same high school and had become friendly. One possible

793
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:37.760
cause of myocarditis is drug toxicity or drug overdose, though

794
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.239
it's more commonly linked to viral infection. The sisters enjoyed

795
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:46.079
a brief reconciliation, but after Rosemary loaned Theresa money she

796
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:50.360
couldn't repay, she began avoiding her. So I think the

797
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:54.800
implication there is that Joey may have died from drugs

798
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:56.559
that were given to him by Howard.

799
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:58.320
That's what I was thinking.

800
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.199
Sheila, Teresa's eldest daughter was slower than the other children

801
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:08.280
and often resisted doing her chores, coming across as generally unmotivated.

802
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:12.800
After ninth grade, she dropped out of school. Teresa was

803
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:16.559
tired of working and decided to collect disability benefits on

804
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:20.199
behalf of Sheila. She coached her on how to answer

805
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:24.400
questions and present herself as mentally challenged. During the interview,

806
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:30.960
Sheila arrived unbathed, wearing ratty clothes and no shoes. And

807
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:32.760
the book I read for this case it said that

808
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:35.920
this is so gross, but they put fecal matter in

809
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.559
her hair to make her seem like she didn't know better.

810
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.199
Sheila was approved to receive government payments that went directly

811
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:48.360
into Teresa's pockets, so a source of income for Teresa

812
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.559
was so now she's getting these payments for Sheila, But

813
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:55.960
she also had received Social Security benefits from her first

814
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:59.559
husband's the two children that came from her first marriage,

815
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:02.960
so she was receiving not a lot of money, but

816
00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:06.000
you know, a little bit of help from the government there, Okay.

817
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.639
So the other kids were expected to bring in an

818
00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:13.800
income too, babysitting, paper routs and other odd jobs. Susan

819
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:18.719
was the brightest of Teresa's children genius level, even eligible

820
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:22.639
to attend a school for gifted students. She had a

821
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:25.960
strange fascination with Satan and the occult, and at times

822
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:29.599
her mother accused her of being a witch. Susan dropped

823
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:32.280
out of school in eighth grade and no one made

824
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.920
her go back. She ran away and went to the

825
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.480
children's receiving Home of Sacramento. The children's receiving Home wasn't

826
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.239
meant to be permanent, was where children were taken when

827
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.400
there was no else, nowhere else for them to go

828
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:48.119
in an emergency. But life there wasn't easy for Susan.

829
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:52.440
She eventually left, spent time living on the streets, and

830
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:56.599
at times survived through sex work. Later, she was returned

831
00:46:56.639 --> 00:47:00.119
to the children's home, but she proved too defiant and

832
00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:03.920
Teresa was called to come get her daughter. Once home,

833
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:07.599
Teresa delivered the beating of a lifetime, then made Susan's

834
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:11.119
siblings all punch and slap her too for the embarrassment

835
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:14.320
she brought to the family. Do you remember what Teresa's

836
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.280
number one rule is?

837
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.039
Don't talk about what happens in.

838
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:21.519
The house exactly. Susan was often handcuffed to her bed,

839
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:25.280
so she couldn't escape again. Her behavior began to frighten

840
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:28.320
everyone in the house. She scared her family by speaking

841
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:32.719
in demonic voices and making ominous predictions about them. She

842
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.679
warned that Howard would kill them all. Teresa thought that

843
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:40.800
she was possessed by a dark force. Teresa was growing

844
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:44.920
increasingly preoccupied with her appearance. She had gained weight, and

845
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:48.480
she felt herself aging and resented the loss of the

846
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:52.199
male attention she had once received. She was convinced that

847
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:56.039
her daughter was using dark magic against her and making

848
00:47:56.039 --> 00:48:01.360
her gain weight while Susan was becoming more beautiful. Teresa

849
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.760
started to become untethered from reality and grew paranoid that

850
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.760
her children were trying to kill her. One day, a

851
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:11.239
fight with Susan escalated and Teresa shot her daughter in

852
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:15.480
the chest, and she fell into the bathtub. Snapped back

853
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.880
to reality. Teresa apologized, sobbing to Susan, who told her

854
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:23.760
that she loved her and forgave her. She needed medical attention,

855
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.239
but Teresa refused to take her to the hospital, afraid

856
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:31.239
of the consequences. Over her years as a nurse, Teresa

857
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:34.039
had stockpiled all of the necessary supplies she needed to

858
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.559
take care of Susan, although the bullet remained lodged in

859
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.039
her rib cage. It took a month, but she seemed

860
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:44.880
to make a full recovery. So for that month Susan

861
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:48.559
remained in the bathtub and she would like take care

862
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.119
of her, dress her wounds every day in the bathtub.

863
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:54.599
Wow. So do you think she shot her with the

864
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:55.800
intent of killing her?

865
00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:58.639
I don't really know. It seemed like maybe she just

866
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:02.039
did it impulsively out of anger and then she realized

867
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:02.719
what she'd done.

868
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:05.480
Or was it self defense like with her ex husband.

869
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:10.519
Oh, yes, self defense and quotations. So Teresa remained convinced

870
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:14.199
that Susan was possessed. When a local Baptist church refused

871
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:17.519
to perform an exorcism, she decided to carry one out

872
00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:20.760
herself with the help of her children, but it didn't

873
00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:25.440
go as she expected. Teresa began having vivid, frightening visions

874
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:29.159
that her children were trying to kill her. Terrified, she

875
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:31.880
fled the house and spent three days alone in a hotel.

876
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:36.000
Convinced that her life was in danger. Susan was still

877
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.440
watched carefully by her family. Teresa drugged her at night

878
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:41.960
so she couldn't cast spells on them while she slept.

879
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.519
For a time, Howard's girlfriend, Connie, lived with a family,

880
00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:49.800
and what she saw unsettled her. The dysfunction was impossible

881
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:54.519
to ignore, though she thought Susan seemed relatively normal by comparison.

882
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.880
The police raided the home. Everyone was questioned about Howard's

883
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:03.760
drug operation. No one talked except Connie. By speaking to

884
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.320
the police, she broke an unspoken rule in the house,

885
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:10.119
and it cost her. Howard ended the relationship, but in

886
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:13.639
nineteen eighty four they rekindled the relationship and got married.

887
00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.760
In Nevada, several members of the Hell's Angel motorcycle club

888
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:20.960
lived in Teresa's neighborhood. At first, there had been some

889
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:25.440
level of familiarity, even friendliness, but that didn't last. As

890
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.800
tensions grew, the relationship turned hostile. The gang began making

891
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.519
their expectations clear. Teresa needed to put her house up

892
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:36.760
for sale and leave. If she didn't, they warned they

893
00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.400
would make life very difficult for her and her family.

894
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:44.000
Teresa's house sold quickly for thirty five thousand dollars. The

895
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.719
family moved to a seedy part of Sacramento into an apartment.

896
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:51.000
With the money from the sale of the house, Teresa

897
00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:54.039
was able to pay back her sister Rosemary. There was

898
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:57.760
a brief time that the sisters became close again. Teresa

899
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.159
had always been envious of her sister's steady job and marriage,

900
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.559
but Rosemary revealed that things had been rocky since Joey's death.

901
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.719
Her husband had been having affairs. Shortly after, in November

902
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:16.519
nineteen eighty three, Rosemary, nearly forty, was found murdered by strangulation.

903
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:21.239
Her husband, Floyd, quickly received two hundred and fifty thousand

904
00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:26.000
dollars in life insurance payments. Rosemary's murder was never solved.

905
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:28.079
Oh goodness, poor Rosemary.

906
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:29.599
She had a hard life.

907
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:33.760
Yeah, it seems like there's definitely some generational trauma at

908
00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:36.719
play here. But wow, very sad.

909
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:39.519
So her husband he might have I'm not sure if

910
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.360
he was arrested or not, but he was looked at

911
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:45.280
very closely during a strangulation. A lot of times it's

912
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:49.480
partner violence. But there just wasn't enough to tie him

913
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.639
to the crime. There was like no forensic evidence, I guess.

914
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.440
After the household, the sudden cash brought a brief sense

915
00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:02.159
of stability, almost happiness. Teresa spent freely buying gifts and

916
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:04.880
cars for the family, but when the money was gone,

917
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:08.960
things went back to normal. Worse even She began sending

918
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:11.760
her daughters out to earn money on the streets, forcing

919
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:16.079
them into sex work. Teresa was unbelievably cruel and beat

920
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:19.679
her daughter's non stop. Once she threw a pair of

921
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:23.519
scissors at Susan and they lodged in her back, Susan

922
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:26.599
decided to strike out on her own. She set her

923
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:30.599
sights on Alaska. She made the mistake of telling her mother,

924
00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:34.840
but surprisingly she agreed on one condition. She needed to

925
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.840
remove the bullet from Susan so it would never be

926
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.480
traced back to her. So she still has the bullet

927
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:42.639
in her from his.

928
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.360
Bullet had remained in her body, but it was the

929
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:48.599
bullet was serendipitus. That hadn't hit anything, you know, any

930
00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:53.760
major arteries. So sometimes that actually happens, that they just

931
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.079
leave things in your body because it's safer to leave

932
00:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.440
them there than have them removed. In this case, if

933
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:03.199
she had gone to the hospital, they would have removed.

934
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:06.440
It right They set up a makeshift operating suite in

935
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.800
the dining room. Teresa gave Susan half a bottle of

936
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.320
Southern comfort and a handful of pills she made. Robert

937
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:17.239
cut into his sister using an exacto knife. The bullet

938
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:21.199
was visible just beneath Susan's shoulder blade. He fished the

939
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:24.320
bullet out and then covered the wound with butterfly bandages.

940
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:28.000
She came two hours later, but she never recovered fully.

941
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:33.639
Despite Teresa giving her antibiotics and other medications, her condition worsened,

942
00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:38.079
her fever climbing higher each day. She remained lying on

943
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:41.000
the floor of the dining room, the family stepping over her.

944
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:43.840
Susan slipped into a coma and the whites of her

945
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:47.239
eyes yellowed. She was in dire need of medical care,

946
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.800
but Teresa refused to take her to the hospital, knowing

947
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:54.079
what it would mean she would be held responsible.

948
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:59.199
How insane is this? I know so and Teresa, her

949
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:01.880
brother is like a medical background. I mean, she's never

950
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:05.519
been in surgery, but she makes her son cut into

951
00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:09.280
his sister. I guess the bullet was like visible, and

952
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:12.039
it was. He didn't have to cut very far, but

953
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.079
still still, I wonder what was going through his mind

954
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.920
at that moment. Yeah, well, the kids were all so

955
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:22.440
scared of her, and he was the youngest son so yeah,

956
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:26.199
I think that, you know, like abused children, they'll do

957
00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:29.000
anything their parents tell them to write.

958
00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:33.440
On July fifteenth, nineteen eighty three, with Susan barely clinging

959
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.960
to life, her belongings were packed into hefty bags and

960
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:40.840
placed in the backseat of Teresa's car. Then Susan was

961
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:45.880
laid beside them. Robert, Bill, Terry, and Theresa drove around

962
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:50.079
for a time, but the car's engine started acting up. Ultimately,

963
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:53.519
they returned to the apartment, carrying Susan in the hefty

964
00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:56.559
bags back inside and placing them in the dining room.

965
00:54:56.760 --> 00:54:59.920
The next night, they tried again. This time they covered

966
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.840
Susan's mouth with duct tape and bound her wrists, though

967
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.239
there was no need she was unconscious and barely breathing.

968
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:10.880
They drove south on Highway eighty nine until they reached

969
00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.320
Squaw Creek, a dark, remote stretch where the sky was

970
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:18.079
thick with stars. They pulled over and got out, carrying

971
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:21.440
Susan and her belongings down toward the creek bed. Teresa

972
00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:24.800
took a gas cand and doused her daughter with gasoline,

973
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:27.880
then told Bill to light a match as she walked

974
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.920
back to the car. Moments later, flames erupted into the

975
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:35.599
night sky. The coroner believed that Susan was still alive

976
00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:38.760
when the fire washed over her body. So this is

977
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.480
the incident that we talked about right at the store, right, Yeah, wow,

978
00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:47.960
just so just tragic. You know, did they think she

979
00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:50.800
was dead when they did this or no?

980
00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:53.079
I guess that they knew that she was still alive

981
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.039
because she was mumbling a little bit. I think in

982
00:55:56.079 --> 00:55:58.880
the car just so said like, why couldn't you have

983
00:55:58.960 --> 00:55:59.480
driven her.

984
00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:04.280
To the hospital right, just out of the Teresa's fear

985
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:05.480
of getting caught.

986
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:07.800
Yeah, poor Susan.

987
00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:12.719
Bright. Then the boys and Terry were mostly grown, working

988
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:16.119
and beginning lives of their own. With Susan gone, Teresa's

989
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:21.000
focus shifted to Sheila. Often left alone, Teresa savagely beat

990
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:23.400
her and locked her in the linen closet for days

991
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.360
in the summer heat. She didn't allow her food, water,

992
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:27.559
or use of the bathroom.

993
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:31.320
And the linen closet was super tiny, like two feet

994
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:35.519
by two feet, Like she couldn't stand, she couldn't There

995
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:38.000
was just no way to find comfort in this small space.

996
00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:41.599
It's terrible. Terry checked on her while their mother was

997
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:44.519
out on a quick trip to the store. Sheila looked

998
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:49.199
like she was dying, wearing only underwear and socks. Terry

999
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:52.039
still carries the weight of not getting help, but she

1000
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:55.440
knew what her mother was capable of. Days later, a

1001
00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:59.199
stench filled the apartment. Teresa finally opened the closet door.

1002
00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:03.119
She was dead. She ordered Bill and Robert to put

1003
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:04.639
her body in a cardboard box.

1004
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:09.199
This part of the book was horrific, like the description,

1005
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:11.199
and I'm going to spare you the details, but it

1006
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:14.360
was so horrible the way that they found her body.

1007
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:16.800
The three of them loaded the box into the car

1008
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:20.199
and once again drove along Highway eighty nine. They had

1009
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.480
planned to bury her, but a police car pulled up

1010
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:26.559
behind them. Theresa stayed calm, telling the officer her sons

1011
00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:30.280
had simply stopped to relieve themselves in the woods. Despite

1012
00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:32.559
the smell coming from the box in the back seat,

1013
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:36.480
the officer let them go. She was eventually discovered by

1014
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:40.079
campers and classified as a Jane Doe. Her death was

1015
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:44.159
ruled undetermined. Suspicion later fell on a truck driver who

1016
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:48.760
frequented the area, Benjamin Herbert Boyle, already charged in the

1017
00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:52.000
rape and murder of another young woman, Gail the north

1018
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:57.760
Smith twenty years old. Investigators noted similarities blanket and rope

1019
00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:01.559
fibers consistent with items he owned, but there wasn't enough

1020
00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:03.000
evidence to link him.

1021
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:03.760
To Sheila's staff.

1022
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:08.239
Teresa and her remaining children cleaned their apartment and cars

1023
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:12.639
and donated Sheila's possessions to Goodwill, erasing any trace of her,

1024
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.280
but the memory of what they'd done would haunt them.

1025
00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:20.840
James Cross, Teresa's father, outlived two of his granddaughters despite

1026
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:24.880
his illness. He died in November nineteen eighty five at

1027
00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:26.119
eighty years of age.

1028
00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:29.559
So I haven't talked much about James throughout the story,

1029
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:34.360
but Teresa obviously a horrible person, but she did care

1030
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:36.639
for her father, and he was in a home at

1031
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:40.679
the end, but often during his life he lived with

1032
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:44.719
her and she took care of him. Terry was still

1033
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.119
just fifteen, and she'd seen way too much violence and

1034
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:50.880
cruelty in her young life. She dropped out of school

1035
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:54.440
and began working full time. So all the girls dropped

1036
00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:59.199
out of school young, but the boys finished school. Terry

1037
00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:01.960
avoided spending time with her mother, and things were okay

1038
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:04.840
as long as she handed over her paycheck to her,

1039
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:08.760
but then Teresa began beating her and handcuffing her to

1040
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:13.280
the bed. The linen closet where Sheila had died haunted Teresa.

1041
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:17.119
She was convinced that it still held evidence that she

1042
00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:21.039
couldn't scrub away, so she made Terry an offer for

1043
00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:24.119
in the apartment building down and she'd finally be free

1044
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:26.840
of her. So they emptied the apartment of the things

1045
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:30.440
that they wanted to keep. Then Terry doused the apartment

1046
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:34.199
with three containers of charcoal lighter fluid before lighting a

1047
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:38.239
match and escaping out a window, but they underestimated the

1048
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.840
speed at which the fired department would arrive. The apartment

1049
00:59:41.920 --> 00:59:45.000
suffered only miter damage, and it was obvious it was

1050
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:49.159
an arson attempt. Theresa was furious with Terry and began

1051
00:59:49.239 --> 00:59:53.960
beating her, blaming her for doing a shoddy job. Terry,

1052
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:58.519
younger and faster, dodged her mother's angry fists. She looked

1053
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:01.960
her in the eye and told her, defian, You'll never

1054
01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:06.679
touch me again. She walked out just fifteen. She was

1055
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:10.320
placed in foster care, eventually going to live with her father,

1056
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:13.840
Bob Norr, whom she hadn't seen in years. But the

1057
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:16.440
stability didn't last, and soon she moved in with a

1058
01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:20.280
boyfriend and fell into a cycle of partying, drugs, and alcohol.

1059
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:23.280
So you might be wondering what happened to Howard. Well,

1060
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:26.239
Howard had moved out. He got married to Connie and

1061
01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:29.960
they had a one year old baby boy, and Connie

1062
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:32.880
was pregnant with their second child, and he beat the

1063
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:36.800
baby so badly that he almost died, and Howard was

1064
01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:41.360
arrested and jailed for beating his son. Bill moved in

1065
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.519
with his girlfriend. He worked two jobs and went to school.

1066
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:48.440
He cut off his family completely. Theresa was left with

1067
01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:52.440
only Robert sixteen. They stayed in a series of cheap

1068
01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:56.800
motels before they decided to move to Reno, Nevada. Soon,

1069
01:00:57.039 --> 01:00:59.840
Robert was addicted to drugs and unable to hold down

1070
01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:03.639
a job. Finally, Teresa got a job as a cook

1071
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.039
at a casino. She hadn't worked in years because the

1072
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:09.719
kids were supporting her for the most part. She called

1073
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:11.840
the police on Robert and tried to get him fired

1074
01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:15.400
from his job. He moved back to California and lost

1075
01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:18.199
touch with Teresa. For a while, no one knew where

1076
01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:22.559
she was. Robert's addiction to drugs and alcohol worsened, as

1077
01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:26.079
did his criminal record. In nineteen ninety three, he was

1078
01:01:26.119 --> 01:01:28.800
involved in the robbery and murder of a bar owner,

1079
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:33.679
landing him in prison for fifteen years. Terry had lived

1080
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:37.840
fast and hard. A tattoo on her ankle read classic bitch.

1081
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:42.559
She drifted through abusive relationships, and she struggled with addiction.

1082
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:46.599
She attempted to take her own life twice, but in

1083
01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:49.559
nineteen ninety three she married a man named Michael Grove.

1084
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:53.440
When she told him about her family, especially how her

1085
01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:56.679
sisters had died, he urged her to go to the police.

1086
01:01:57.519 --> 01:02:01.000
She did, but they never quite believed her story. Sorry.

1087
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:04.480
It wasn't until October nineteen ninety three, while watching America's

1088
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:08.400
Most Wanted that she finally decided to act. She called

1089
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.360
the number at the bottom of the screen. A person

1090
01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:14.599
who answered told her that they couldn't initiate an investigation,

1091
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:18.679
but they helped connect Terry with the police department that could.

1092
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:22.480
She told her story again, which they found hard to believe,

1093
01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:25.760
but they were able to track down Bill and his

1094
01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:29.960
story was similar. But there was one problem. No one

1095
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:33.079
knew where Teresa was. She had cut ties with her

1096
01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:36.119
children and was working as a livid nurse for an

1097
01:02:36.159 --> 01:02:40.440
eighty six year old woman named Alice Sullivan. Alice's family

1098
01:02:40.599 --> 01:02:44.400
was grateful, believing Teresa was taking excellent care of their mother.

1099
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:47.639
The family thought that she was a little odd. She

1100
01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:51.159
wore wigs, and she kept to herself and carried herself

1101
01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:54.760
with an air of mystery. Then one night, as Teresa

1102
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:57.159
sat down with a pizza and turned on the news,

1103
01:02:57.519 --> 01:03:01.239
she saw her daughter Terry on the screen. My mother

1104
01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:04.679
is a very sick woman, Terry said, what right did

1105
01:03:04.719 --> 01:03:08.159
she have to take my sisters away from me? Theresa

1106
01:03:08.239 --> 01:03:11.760
asked her employer for a five thousand dollar advance to

1107
01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:14.679
pay back taxes she claimed, and then she left for

1108
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:18.440
New York to care for another elderly patient. But before

1109
01:03:18.559 --> 01:03:22.199
long she returned to Salt Lake City, the police were

1110
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:26.920
narrowing in on her. Theresa was arrested on November tenth,

1111
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:30.400
nineteen ninety three, in charge with the murders of Susan

1112
01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:34.840
and Sheilah, along with years of abuse inflicted on her children.

1113
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:39.199
Faced with overwhelming evidence and testimony from her son's and

1114
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:43.360
remaining daughter, she pleaded guilty. In nineteen ninety five. She

1115
01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:46.960
was sentenced to two consecutive life terms in prison, where

1116
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:50.360
she remains to day she will be eligible for parole.

1117
01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:54.280
In twenty twenty seven, Robert was sentenced to fifteen years

1118
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:57.320
to life in prison, and William received a shorter term

1119
01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:01.159
of about three years for co operating with the head investigators,

1120
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:04.320
while Terry, treated as a victim, became one of the

1121
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:08.599
key voices that finally brought the truth to light. What

1122
01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:12.480
had once been hidden behind closed door is dismissed, ignored,

1123
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:16.440
were never reported, was finally brought into the open. But

1124
01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:19.679
by then two young women had already lost their lives,

1125
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:22.960
and the damage done to their surviving children would last

1126
01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:28.239
far beyond any sentence handed down in court. Sadly, Terry

1127
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:31.039
died from a heart attack in twenty eleven at age

1128
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:35.280
forty one. Rest in peace, Susan, Sheila, and Terry. You

1129
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.840
all deserved so much better. I tried to track down

1130
01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:41.719
the rest of the kids and the boys, I guess,

1131
01:04:41.719 --> 01:04:44.159
and I couldn't really find much on them. But in

1132
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:49.360
twenty sixteen, Robert was convicted on child pornography charges. I

1133
01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:51.800
think the only one that is living in Okay life

1134
01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:56.239
is Bill. He seemed like the most normal one, but

1135
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:01.159
had tried arrested at some point. Well, he I think

1136
01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:04.119
he went to prison for his part in the deaths

1137
01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:06.719
of his sisters because remember he was in the car

1138
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:08.039
and he you know.

1139
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:09.599
He was technically complicit.

1140
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:11.639
Yeah. Wow.

1141
01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:18.800
Well, as horrible as it is, I'm glad that Teresa

1142
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:21.079
was brought to justice.

1143
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:23.239
I mean, was she though?

1144
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:27.679
I mean not soon enough, that's for sure. Should she

1145
01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:31.239
have been arrested when she killed her first husband?

1146
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:33.400
Because I think it's so unfair and I don't believe

1147
01:05:33.400 --> 01:05:35.280
in the death penalty. It's so unfair that she's still

1148
01:05:35.320 --> 01:05:39.320
alive even though she's in prison and she killed two

1149
01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:39.719
of her.

1150
01:05:39.840 --> 01:05:43.840
The fact that she's eligible for parole, well, just eligible

1151
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:44.320
for parole.

1152
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:46.519
I bet she won't be given parole. I think she

1153
01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:49.400
was up in twenty twenty four and she wasn't granted it.

1154
01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:51.880
Then I would guess that she would never get parole

1155
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:53.000
for what she did.

1156
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:55.039
She is really really scary.

1157
01:05:55.639 --> 01:05:59.320
How deeply was Teresa affected by her mother's death or

1158
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:03.079
had she been headed down a dark path before her death?

1159
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:03.199
Like?

1160
01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:05.719
Was she kind of like a bad pert? I guess

1161
01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:08.559
I didn't give you enough background information really to answer that.

1162
01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:11.960
I was because she wasn't really troublesome as a teenager.

1163
01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:14.199
Right, and I was wondering if she had faced any

1164
01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:16.440
abuse in her early years.

1165
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:18.719
I don't think so. I think her father was kind

1166
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:22.519
of stern. But people said that Swannie Gay was really

1167
01:06:22.519 --> 01:06:25.960
funny and lovely. And yeah. Do you think that Teresa

1168
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:28.079
should have been acquitted in the shooting death of her

1169
01:06:28.119 --> 01:06:28.960
first husband.

1170
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:33.480
It's tough to say, because while I want to believe

1171
01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:39.800
it was self defense, I based on everything that followed

1172
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:43.239
in her later years, it seems like she.

1173
01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:47.119
Should have been Yeah. I think so too. Do you

1174
01:06:47.239 --> 01:06:51.320
think that the system failed these children? Yes, yeah, because

1175
01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:54.960
they stopped the girls stopped showing up at school, and

1176
01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:58.000
the truant officers tried to get them back in school,

1177
01:06:58.159 --> 01:07:00.599
but Teresa would just tell them you don't have to

1178
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:02.400
go to school, and she would ignore them.

1179
01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:05.679
So yeah, they just never knew it was an option

1180
01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:08.880
to escape their circumstances. Yeah, that's so sad.

1181
01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:12.519
Why do you think that Terry eventually came forward and

1182
01:07:12.559 --> 01:07:13.320
called the police.

1183
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:19.199
I think living through everything that happened, watching her sister

1184
01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:26.239
undergo surgery by their brother, living with all of that

1185
01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:31.320
must have been excruciating, and I'm sure she was at

1186
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.480
the point where she just couldn't she haunted her? Right.

1187
01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:37.800
I think all of the kids were just so scared

1188
01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:40.800
of their mom, and that's why it took her so

1189
01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:44.800
long to realize, wait a minute, you know, I need

1190
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:48.199
to find justice for my sisters. And that was I

1191
01:07:48.239 --> 01:07:51.400
saw some interviews with her, and it was really important

1192
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:55.079
to her that her sisters be remembered, and she realized,

1193
01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:57.639
I love them much more than I realized I did,

1194
01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:00.199
and just the trauma in their life.

1195
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.639
Did Terry ever have children herself?

1196
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:05.280
I don't think she did. I think she said in

1197
01:08:05.320 --> 01:08:08.320
one interview that the abuse that she had suffered as

1198
01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:11.159
a child was so severe that it caused her not

1199
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:12.320
to be able to have children.

1200
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:16.279
Well, well, I hope that the children of that other

1201
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:20.960
siblings were at least able to heal from that generational

1202
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:24.479
trauma and find a good path for themselves.

1203
01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:27.039
Do you mean the boy? The boy, Well, yeah, they

1204
01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:30.800
don't have a kid. I think he has a family, okay.

1205
01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:33.479
And Howard has a couple of children too. I couldn't

1206
01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:36.960
find any information on Howard. He's not in jail, that's

1207
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:38.680
all I can tell you, Okay. And he was the

1208
01:08:38.680 --> 01:08:41.560
one who beat his one year old son. M Okay,

1209
01:08:42.520 --> 01:08:45.239
do you think the boys were victims or accomplices.

1210
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:49.159
That's also tricky to say, but I think first and

1211
01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:50.359
foremost they were victims.

1212
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:53.159
Yes, I agree. What do you think about Teresa being

1213
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:56.279
such a good caregiver at the end of prior to

1214
01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:59.399
her arrest, because the people that she cared for were like, oh,

1215
01:08:59.439 --> 01:09:03.760
she was so and loving and we loved having her. Yeah,

1216
01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:04.680
that kind of crazy.

1217
01:09:04.840 --> 01:09:07.600
It is strange. It makes me wonder if maybe she's

1218
01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:12.680
trying to atone for all of her sins, her horrible wrongdoings. Well,

1219
01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:15.920
I hope that at some point this family is able

1220
01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:18.239
to end the cycle of abuse.

1221
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:27.239
Me too. In the spirit of Mother's Day, something that

1222
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:29.399
has really moved me and Dad when we do the

1223
01:09:29.399 --> 01:09:34.680
podcast is how many moms become fearless advocates for their children.

1224
01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:37.399
And I'm going to have you read it because I

1225
01:09:37.520 --> 01:09:39.199
keep crying that I try to read it.

1226
01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:42.800
I'll do my best. Some mothers refuse to let tragedy

1227
01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:45.640
be the end of their child's story. After her daughter

1228
01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:49.159
Carrie was killed by a drunk driver, Candy Lightner founded

1229
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:53.760
Mothers Against Drunk Driving. After Megan Kanka's murder, Maureen Keanka

1230
01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:57.359
pushed for laws requiring communities to be notified when registered

1231
01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:01.199
sex offenders move into their neighborhoods. Be came Megan's Law.

1232
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.760
After Trayvon Martin's death, Sabrina Fulton became a national advocate

1233
01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:10.039
for rachel justice and gun violence awareness, and after Eric

1234
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:13.960
Garner died, his mother, Gwen Carr, fought for police accountability

1235
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:17.600
and reform. It wasn't a path they chose intentionally, but

1236
01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:21.399
they refuse to let their children's names fade. They didn't

1237
01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:25.159
stop being mothers. They've carried their maternal love into the world,

1238
01:10:25.239 --> 01:10:30.119
fighting to make the world a better place. Moms are

1239
01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:31.439
what make the world go round.

1240
01:10:31.880 --> 01:10:34.159
Well, thank you so much for reading that. Sometimes I

1241
01:10:34.279 --> 01:10:36.760
just I'm just a big baby and I start crying.

1242
01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:38.840
But moms are so important. And if you have a

1243
01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:43.239
good one, hug her today, and I shouldn't. I feel

1244
01:10:43.279 --> 01:10:45.760
like Mother's Day wee get lost in mothers. But women

1245
01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:48.439
in general, I feel like so many women that don't

1246
01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:51.640
have biological children. You know you have pets, or you

1247
01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.479
know you're a teacher or a nurse or so many

1248
01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:58.399
women are really great role models and put so much

1249
01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:02.039
love and care into the world. And you're one of those.

1250
01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:04.279
You're one of those today. I mean, you're at camp mom,

1251
01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:06.840
but with your work that you do, you give so

1252
01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:09.039
much love to those kids, and it makes a difference.

1253
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:10.079
Yeah.

1254
01:11:10.119 --> 01:11:12.039
Well, I couldn't have done it without having such a

1255
01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:16.359
great role model. Well, and let me just say you,

1256
01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:21.079
I couldn't do this reading such a gruesome material with

1257
01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:23.399
anyone else because you are the person who makes me

1258
01:11:23.399 --> 01:11:24.840
feel most safe in this world.

1259
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:30.199
Well, you're amazed. You're an amazing young woman, and I

1260
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:31.760
am very proud of you, and I love you very

1261
01:11:31.800 --> 01:11:33.600
much and I'm so glad that you are here today.

1262
01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:34.520
I love you too.

1263
01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:43.399
Well, that was lovely listening to the two of you

1264
01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:44.000
talk and.

1265
01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:44.479
Cover that car.

1266
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:46.960
Where did you come from? I've been here the whole

1267
01:11:47.000 --> 01:11:48.039
no toys allowed.

1268
01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:50.119
You made me tear up there at the end.

1269
01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:54.079
Yeah, we have the others sweetest daughter, Yeah, and son.

1270
01:11:54.560 --> 01:11:58.039
You're both you're both amazing, doubly blessed. So but now

1271
01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:00.720
we are going to find out how well you actually

1272
01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:01.439
know each other.

1273
01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:05.199
So I put together a little quiz and you each

1274
01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:08.199
sent me your answers of what you expect the other

1275
01:12:08.239 --> 01:12:09.000
one to say.

1276
01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:11.640
I'm nervous about this because I don't think I'm gonna

1277
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:12.520
get many right.

1278
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.640
All right, So the first question was if the house

1279
01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:18.720
was on fire and you could only grab one thing,

1280
01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:21.439
what would it be? So you've each made your prediction

1281
01:12:21.520 --> 01:12:23.600
of what the other person will say. So, Tina, why

1282
01:12:23.640 --> 01:12:26.039
don't you start? If the house was on fire and

1283
01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:28.079
you could only grab one thing, what would it be?

1284
01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:28.319
Oh?

1285
01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:33.399
Me, yeah, I would grab pictures, pictures.

1286
01:12:33.880 --> 01:12:35.000
Emma, what would you grab?

1287
01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:37.319
Probably my giddy cats?

1288
01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:37.960
All right?

1289
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:41.319
So wait, I feel bad I would grab the cats too,

1290
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:42.319
because I like.

1291
01:12:43.119 --> 01:12:46.960
Yeah, Well, Tina, you predicted that Emma would say she.

1292
01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:48.560
Would grab I mean, I knew she would say that.

1293
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:57.319
Yeah, but Emma, you predicted that Mom would grab her airs, which.

1294
01:12:57.159 --> 01:12:58.640
Well that surminds me a little bit.

1295
01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:00.680
That's what you thought Mom would go for or first.

1296
01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:02.600
But it's so funny.

1297
01:13:02.840 --> 01:13:04.840
Even my MacBook, what would have my earpot?

1298
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:06.840
Okay, actually I want to change my inside. I think

1299
01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:09.960
you'd actually grab your Stanley cupple.

1300
01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:14.840
I lost my Awala cup at the Airbnb were last week.

1301
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:17.359
I was so sad, the second time I've lost a

1302
01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:19.039
water bottle at an Airbnb.

1303
01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:19.920
It was sad.

1304
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:21.920
I thought when you said Mom would grab her Stanley

1305
01:13:21.960 --> 01:13:23.920
cuff that she had one playing.

1306
01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:26.239
Hockey was what you meant? All right?

1307
01:13:26.359 --> 01:13:30.600
Next question, what is your favorite snack or treat? Tina?

1308
01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:32.560
Why don't we start with you? What is your favorite?

1309
01:13:33.119 --> 01:13:35.720
It varies from day to day. I think like if

1310
01:13:35.720 --> 01:13:37.680
I had to pick one for all time, it would

1311
01:13:37.720 --> 01:13:40.439
probably be like potato chips and French onion dip, which

1312
01:13:40.439 --> 01:13:41.399
I bet you didn't guess.

1313
01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:44.319
And Emma, what would you would you say Cheetos?

1314
01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.039
No, like Cheeto's a lot, I guess I was kind

1315
01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:49.119
of thinking more of sweet treats.

1316
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:52.119
Okay, Emma, what would be your favorite treat?

1317
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:56.159
That's also really tough, But I eat ninety percent of

1318
01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:58.239
my diet is peanut butter, so it would probably just

1319
01:13:58.279 --> 01:13:58.920
be peanut butter.

1320
01:13:59.079 --> 01:14:00.960
Oh, I say both way off?

1321
01:14:01.439 --> 01:14:04.399
Mom predicted way off you would say tin fish and

1322
01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:07.119
Emma predicted that you would say cheesecake.

1323
01:14:07.640 --> 01:14:07.800
Oh.

1324
01:14:07.800 --> 01:14:10.920
I almost never eat cheesecake only on my birth I

1325
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:14.399
love it, but I'm more of like for snacks and more.

1326
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:18.359
Salty and not just for snacks, I would say. The

1327
01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:20.640
next question is what is your biggest pet?

1328
01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:25.079
Peeve, your biggest only one only one purpose?

1329
01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:30.399
I don't know. I really it's so hard. I don't know.

1330
01:14:30.520 --> 01:14:33.800
Just in general, people not cleaning up after themselves, all right.

1331
01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:35.560
And Emma, what would be your pet peeve?

1332
01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:42.600
Probably outside clothes on the bed, outside clothes on the bed, Okay.

1333
01:14:41.600 --> 01:14:44.000
Did I I'm pretty sure I said something you.

1334
01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:46.319
Did at first but changed your I did.

1335
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:49.319
And dead was like, what I thought?

1336
01:14:49.319 --> 01:14:50.079
That was very odd.

1337
01:14:50.079 --> 01:14:52.720
But Emma, you predicted that mom would say damp rags

1338
01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:53.920
by the kitchen sink.

1339
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:56.359
Which is which is pretty power with what you said.

1340
01:14:56.840 --> 01:14:59.399
And Tina, you said that Emma's pet peeve would be

1341
01:14:59.479 --> 01:15:01.159
parents of preschooler as well.

1342
01:15:01.319 --> 01:15:03.000
You have I put that in your head.

1343
01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.199
You did put it in my head because I realistic,

1344
01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:07.520
because I did say you said.

1345
01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:10.760
I did say, Well, you said.

1346
01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:13.239
People sitting on them as bad, like she doesn't like

1347
01:15:13.279 --> 01:15:15.720
anyone to sit right, Like if I would come in

1348
01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:17.600
and talk to you, you'd be like, why are you

1349
01:15:17.640 --> 01:15:18.560
sitting in my bed?

1350
01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:21.600
But if you had put on fresh pajamas, I would

1351
01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:22.520
be okay with it?

1352
01:15:23.119 --> 01:15:25.520
Okay, all right, Next one, I think, And next one

1353
01:15:25.560 --> 01:15:26.800
I think is a softball question.

1354
01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:29.880
What is your favorite color? Tina? What is your favorite color?

1355
01:15:29.960 --> 01:15:32.159
I mean it depends from day to day, Like today

1356
01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:34.039
I have this powder blue. I think this is a

1357
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:36.840
very nice color. I would say yellow in general, and Emma,

1358
01:15:36.880 --> 01:15:37.560
what would you say?

1359
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:41.479
Again, it varies, but I think green or pink.

1360
01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:44.359
Okay, well, you guessed Emma would say pink. You guessed

1361
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:45.600
the mom would say yellow.

1362
01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:48.840
That's why your cookies are so nice, because they're yellow

1363
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:49.399
and pink.

1364
01:15:49.960 --> 01:15:54.159
All right, what is your dream vacation? What is your

1365
01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:55.079
dream vacation?

1366
01:15:55.800 --> 01:16:00.760
I don't even know what is my dream vacation. I

1367
01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:04.199
don't know, something very low key, I don't. I don't know.

1368
01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:07.600
I like vacation, tough questions. Okay, give me some time.

1369
01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:10.399
Okay, Well, Emma, what is your dream vacation?

1370
01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:12.960
While Mom is thinking, ohkay wait, I would probably say, like,

1371
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:15.159
I know it's this is so lame, and I know

1372
01:16:15.239 --> 01:16:18.479
I'm lame, Please forgive me. But like just even going

1373
01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:20.520
to Traverse City. I love going to Traverse City and

1374
01:16:20.560 --> 01:16:23.119
eating in all our favorite places and hanging out at

1375
01:16:23.159 --> 01:16:30.760
the lake. So yeah, I'm going to say that.

1376
01:16:27.800 --> 01:16:31.319
That's also a tricky one. I like exploring new places

1377
01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:35.960
and anything involving hiking, nature, camping even.

1378
01:16:35.920 --> 01:16:38.920
Well, Mom predicted you would say hiking in Marquette.

1379
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:41.239
Can you really love Marquess?

1380
01:16:41.399 --> 01:16:43.880
Emma, you predicted Mom would say being in a nice

1381
01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:47.039
Airbnb somewhere, which is pretty close to what right?

1382
01:16:47.079 --> 01:16:49.359
No, I do like being in a nice, relaxing Airbnb

1383
01:16:49.479 --> 01:16:51.239
where I don't have to like clean anything.

1384
01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:52.199
And yeah, all right.

1385
01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:55.560
Two more. If you had a superpower, what would it be?

1386
01:16:56.720 --> 01:17:00.000
What would be your superpower to do a podcast without

1387
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:04.119
stumbling over my worries all the time? I would probably

1388
01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:04.600
like to fly?

1389
01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:06.920
Okay, Emma, what would be your superpower?

1390
01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:11.439
Probably it's flying. Isn't really a superpower?

1391
01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:12.960
Yeah, sure it is, okay, superman.

1392
01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:15.600
I don't know if it counts as a superpower, but

1393
01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:17.800
I've always wanted to be able to lucid.

1394
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:18.920
Dream lucid dreaming.

1395
01:17:19.039 --> 01:17:19.439
Okay.

1396
01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:22.479
Well, interestingly, you both predicted the other would say the

1397
01:17:22.479 --> 01:17:24.359
same thing. You both said mind reading.

1398
01:17:25.399 --> 01:17:27.800
Hmmm, interesting.

1399
01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:32.720
You read each other's mind. And then the last question.

1400
01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:35.840
What do you admire most about each other?

1401
01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:36.439
Tina?

1402
01:17:36.479 --> 01:17:37.840
What what I most?

1403
01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:39.600
What do you most admire about Emma?

1404
01:17:40.159 --> 01:17:43.720
I mean, how much time do you have? I think

1405
01:17:43.760 --> 01:17:47.720
the thing I most admire is your sense of creativity?

1406
01:17:48.000 --> 01:17:51.960
And you're artistic. You're very artistic. You've been a great

1407
01:17:52.079 --> 01:17:55.479
artist since you've been like two. And you're just beautiful

1408
01:17:55.520 --> 01:17:58.079
and kind and you're kind of like a mother, nature soul.

1409
01:17:59.039 --> 01:18:01.760
And Emma, what do you admire most about mom?

1410
01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:02.760
Again?

1411
01:18:02.840 --> 01:18:03.560
Where to start?

1412
01:18:03.640 --> 01:18:06.439
But I feel like I think I admire most about

1413
01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:10.199
my mom is I think you are very clever, and

1414
01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:12.760
I've always thought you had a weigh with words, and

1415
01:18:13.039 --> 01:18:16.000
I admire the way you interact with other people.

1416
01:18:16.359 --> 01:18:17.800
Oh that's very kind. Thank you.

1417
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:20.840
Well, you predicted that Emma would say she admires your

1418
01:18:20.880 --> 01:18:23.680
sense of humor, which is close. And then Emma, you

1419
01:18:23.720 --> 01:18:27.039
predicted that Mom would say she admires how silly you are.

1420
01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:30.600
I was going to say that too. Yes, I mean,

1421
01:18:30.680 --> 01:18:34.279
just you're just a wonderful young person, and I just

1422
01:18:35.079 --> 01:18:37.800
I guess I've been saying too many nice things about you.

1423
01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:43.239
But you're both swell, and you both you obviously know

1424
01:18:43.319 --> 01:18:44.239
each other pretty well.

1425
01:18:44.279 --> 01:18:44.920
So nice child.

1426
01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:47.800
Just being a mom is something that I take very

1427
01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:50.479
seriously and I would never take for granted. And it

1428
01:18:50.600 --> 01:18:54.199
is the greatest blessing that I have in my life.

1429
01:18:54.239 --> 01:18:56.520
And I'm so grateful that I can be a mom

1430
01:18:56.600 --> 01:19:00.840
to too great And I'm so grateful to you Richard. Well,

1431
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:03.319
I know it's not but like you are a great

1432
01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:07.000
partner and you I couldn't be you know, the mom

1433
01:19:07.039 --> 01:19:10.960
that I am without a partner like you. So anyway, Oh,

1434
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:13.640
I know everyone's like, give me where's the where's the

1435
01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:17.680
vomit bucket? But we're very lucky and we're very lucky

1436
01:19:17.680 --> 01:19:20.439
to have you listening to our podcast right now. We

1437
01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.479
hope so much that you have enjoyed this episode. Emma,

1438
01:19:24.520 --> 01:19:26.520
thank you so much for coming back for the third

1439
01:19:26.600 --> 01:19:30.960
year in a row. Well, thank you for having me literally.

1440
01:19:32.399 --> 01:19:33.000
Good one.

1441
01:19:33.640 --> 01:19:36.880
Well until next time, don't kill your mom and don't

1442
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:37.439
kill a kid.

1443
01:20:00.920 --> 01:20:16.960
The bank of the to