Mother's Day Bonus Episode: Theresa Jimmie Francine Knorr

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Emma. If there's one thing that we've learned it over twenty years of parenting. Sometimes you want to kill your mom, and sometimes you feel like killing your kid. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill Hi Mom, Hi Emma, how are you. I'm good. I'm so excited that you came back for the third year. I know, I can't believe you let me back, and I think it's the other way around anyway. I really like the color of your sweater today.

0:42 Thank you. Did you see my sneakers that Matt, Yes, yeah. And did you see that my water bottle matches my sneakers? Well, you pointed it out. I know I dressed extra cool today because I thought that you'd have like one of those cameras where they're you're taking a video and it shows up on Instagram. Reels in Keith's eyes, Keith's eye, Keith Morrison's Yeah, his eyes are cameras. So we are being filmed, oh yes, being streamed to one hundred and twenty countries live. He does give me the feeling that I'm being watched. He looks a little smug, doesn't he. You really die? I've been thinking recently we need to get another one of the dateline cast members, but I don't know who we would nick next. Dad is here too, but he's just you know, he's recording us, so he's behind the scenes.

1:27 He doesn't have a microphone, but he just waved. What's new in your life? You've been busy lately. Yeah, there's been a lot going on. So I moved out almost a year ago, and. Your mother's heart Just kidding. I'm still sorry about that. I'm so happy for you, and I. Am still teaching preschool. Uh huh. And I also got a kitten just last weekend. We haven't met her yet. I'm a little sad about that, but you said she doesn't like car rides. You have an older cat too, What are your What are cat's names? So the older one is named Bitsy. She's about two years old, and Basil is the baby, about eight or nine weeks old. Funny, your cats are both bee cats and our cats are both sea cats. I know Masma and Clover I have a friendlier than our cats.

2:17 Yeah, well, they're both tabbies and our cats are your cats black cats, And I know that's kind of a stereotype of like tabbies to be pretty sweet and friendly cats more snugly, and then black cats are kind of on the more skiddish side, but they show affection in their own special ways. Of course. Is there anything that you missed from living in our house? If I had to name one thing, it would probably be the variety of snacks you keep in the pantry. Although we have way fewer snacks than we used to, is that true? I don't know. I still find quite a lot in there. A lot of it is leftover podcast snacks, but that is the thing you do when you come before you even hugger. Sometimes you open the refrigerator before you look in the pantry. But yeah, you guys do not have as much food in your house as us.

3:11 No, I mean it's I think that's probably the biggest adjustment when you move out for the first time is figuring out how to buy groceries for yourself. Like everything I buy, I just know, like I have to eat this, so I know I have to be like one ten percent serious that I'm going to consume something. Right, you don't want to waste any time or you're ready, I mean, yeah, exactly. Little brother is figuring that out this week and that's been interesting. Yes, I hear he's experimenting with beans these days. Well, he wants to make things from a scratch, which is great. But I tried to tell him it's okay to buy some prepackaged stuff. But I think you brought me a snack, didn't you. I did. I'm a little nervous about this snack. So it's been a busy time lately. As we said, it's Macember.

4:00 That's a hard time for parents and teachers. There's so much going on it is. So I kind of looked at what I did happen to have in my pantry baking wife, And do you want to see the snack first? Or should I describe it to you? Usually we just taste it. Okay, Well, I feel like I owe you an explanation. Okay, Okay, Well I'm gonna show you right now what I'm prepared for you looks good. It might look better than it tastes. Okay, they're beautiful. Actually. Yeah, So to backtrack a little bit, I do have a bone to pick with you that I wanted to do on the air. Okay, because what did you tell me recently? Like you and your boyfriend were going somewhere and you're like, oh, well, we we're the cookie people. We like to make cookies whatever, wherever we go.

4:47 I did say that, and that comment deeply offended you. I know, yeah, because I'm the cookie mom. But in my opinion, I feel like you should be proud of me. It's like you're passing on. I feel like you're a biscuit girl or could be the cupcake cutie or something like that. But to take cookies from me, it just, you know, I feel like I'm redundant. Then well, you know what they say? Know what do they say that copying someone is actually a deep form of admiration? Is that what they say? Yes, it is, all right, will tell me about the snacks that you brought. Those cookies are beautiful. I have to say, they're very cute. Well I'm not sure if the story behind them will make you want to eat them more or less, but okay. Anyway, sometimes you get a recipe from chatchypetea or out of your own brain and you make things up as you go along. And I've always like, that's not a good idea, but you really do like to do your own thing.

5:47 Yes, well, this is kind of where our differences lie in the pickI making practice. I'd like to be inventive, and I like to experiment with flavors, and sometimes I just want to try something, and I just kind of combine recipes that I already know to invent something new. Anyway, Okay, so what are these? So these are? I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Dolly Parton baking line, but I happened to purchase some of her cake mix the other day. I purchased her strawberry cake and her banana cake, and. I thought, oh, it would be pretty. Interesting to make strawberry banana cookies using this cake mix. So that is what you're.

6:28 Really supporting the Dolly line. I've never bought any of those mixes. I've had her corn bread before, which is we actually serve it at the preschool sometimes and it's actually really good. So would you like to try one of these? Sure, they're very pretty. I know you're not a big banana fan, so maybe you just want to to the pink side. I okay, I like banana bacods. What do you mean? Okay? Oh, you did make some something banana recently that I. Yeah, So that's why I was worried it would be I like to make banana bread, ok, and. We'll posed a picture because they are really pretty Okay, But. What did you think?

7:08 I mean, I'm so glad that you are supporting Dolly Parton because I love Dolly. Do you want to tell everyone about your obsession with banana? And I think you said, oh, you don't like banana as much as I do. I love like banana bread, banana cream pie, banana pudding. But what do you like? So? I am a big fan of artificial banana, Yes, I own. Maybe it's like a point of pride with you. It's I have a bit of a collection. So I have maybe every kind of shower product you could imagine in artificial banana scent. I have banana perfumes. I have always been a big fan of banana candy, like banana runs to banana lafy, taffy, and just the flavor in general.

7:51 I don't know. It just scratches something in my brain. And I am not a fan of artificial most things, but especially artificial banana. So half the cookie strawberry apart was pretty good. But because you literally made two different cakes mixes and blended them together, right, Yes, yeah, I like the strawberry apart. I didn't really like the banana part because that banana aftertaste was pretty kind of bad. Yeah, but you did a good job, as hard as your mom to be like, well, I didn't love what you just made, but yeah, thank you. I appreciated. But that I see something else you brought me over there, So I brought you a slice of duff By chocolate cake in case it didn't work out with the cookies.

8:33 No, the cookies are great. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Last year when we did the Mother's Day episode, it was a really horrible case, and this year the case is also really horrible. It's about one of the worst moms you're ever going to hear about. Are you ready to hear the story of Theresa Jimmy, Francine Cross Sanders, nor Pulliam Harris. I suppose I am may Belle Harrison fort V five was driving down the road early on Tuesday, July seventeenth, nineteen eighty four, just before sunrise. In the distance, she saw a fire burning near the creek in Squaw Valley, California, now known as Palisade's Tahoe. Someone had already called it in, and an officer had briefly checked the scene, deciding the fire was small and would likely burn itself out. But as the sky began to lighten, something didn't sit right.

9:27 Maybell pulled over and stepped out of her car to get a closer look. Within seconds, she gasped, then turned and ran back to the road, frantically flagging down. The next passing vehicle, a big rig driver named Robert Eden, stopped after hearing what she'd seen. He grabbed a fire extinguisher and a bucket from his truck and ran toward the flames. What they found wasn't a brush fire. A young woman had been set ablaze. Her body was badly burned, but half of her pretty face had been spared. Duc tape bound her wrist and covered her mouth. There was no need to check her vital signs. It would have been impossible for her to have survived the fire. After the sun Rose detectives and investigators arrived to begin their work. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon for bodies to be dumped in this corridor along Interstate eighty near the California Nevada border. The creek side and surrounding forest were searched for evidence, and the charred remains of the fire was clear some of the victim's belongings had been burned with her. Among the thirty items recovered were a toothbrush, diapers, a size thirty two sea j C. Pennybros. A pair of Gloria Vanderbilt jeans, a scarf, high heeled shoes, black fliplops, a copy of twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, and a paperback romance novel.

10:46 Investigators were fixated and the diapers found at the scene worried that a child was at risk. Prince were lifted from several items, but there was no match in the system. She appeared to be married. She wore a white gold wedding. She was dressed in a white sweater, corduroy pants, a brown corduroy jacket, and a yellow windbreaker. This young woman clearly had a history a life, but in the morning light, no one knew her name. She was taken to the Placer County Morgue, nearly one hundred miles from where she was found. Ninety one percent of her body had been burned. At first, investigators believed that she was in her late teens or early twenties, but a closer examination told a different story. Her wisdom teeth were still impacted, suggesting that she was likely between fourteen and seventeen years old. Devastatingly, it appeared that she had been burned alive. Ten days passed and she still had no name. No one nearby had reported anyone missing, and her fingerprints returned no match.

11:49 The Jane Does remains were placed in cold storage for ninety days in case new leads emerged. An artist created a rendering of what she may have looked like in life, but no one came forward to claim her. On October twenty fifth, nineteen eighty four, she was laid to rest. It would take over eight years before someone finally came forward to claim her. About a year later, another young woman would be discovered under equally disturbing circumstances near Truckee, California, just ten to fifteen miles from where the first girl had been found along the Interstate eighty corridor. Her body had been placed inside a cardboard box and left in a remote area near the airport, as if some one had intended for her to disappear without a trace. Investigators believed that she was a young woman in her early twenties, small in stature, round five feet tall and just over one hundred pounds, with a slight build. There were no personal items, no identification, nothing to point to who she was.

12:52 Like the girl found in the fire, no one had reported her missing. There were no calls, no searches, no one asking where she had gone. She too became a Jane Doe. At the time, investigators considered whether a passing trucker might be responsible, an all too common theory for bodies found along Interstate eighty, but the truth was far closer to home. What do you think so far? Goodness, We're off to such a terrible start. Yeah, Jane does are heartbreaking. I know. In the nineteen fifties and sixties, Rio Linda, California, wasn't quite a town in the traditional sense. It was a patchwork of dirt roads, modest homes, and wide stretches of land where families raised animals and may do with what they had. Just ten miles north of Sacramento, Rio Linda was known for its farmland, wide open parcels where families kept horses, raised animals, and lived a quieter, more rural life shaped by working class families, many tied to nearby McLellan Air Force Base, and others drawn by the promise of affordable land and a quieter life. Children grew up with a kind of freedom that's hard to imagine now, riding bikes down dusty roads, wandering along dry creek, and learning early how to take care of themselves. It was a place where neighbors knew each other, but not always deeply, where people valued independence and privacy, and where life moved at its own, unhurried pace, simple on the surface, but with enough distance between homes and between people for things to go unseen. Years later, Rio Linda would be thrust

14:25 into the national spotlight when Rush Lumbaugh repeatedly used the town as a punchline, portraying the residents as a hicks who needed things explained more simply, I actually am somewhat familiar with this area. I did AmeriCorps on Triple C back in twenty nineteen, and one of our service projects was stationed in the area. And there's definitely some spookiness. What do you mean by spookiness. There's some interesting people you'll meet. Like rural California is different, right, and the people are. There's still a lot of hippies and things like that in that area. Is that what you mean. Yes, it's an interesting blend of older hippies and more conservative people.

15:11 I remember you used to tell a story about you met a woman named Starlight Compost. Yes, we met a lot of interesting people with very unusual names. In nineteen fifty three, eight year old Teresa Cross, her older sister Rosemary, along with their parents, James and Swannie Gay, moved to Rio Linda, California. James worked on a dairy farm as a cheesemaker, while Swannie Gay took care of their girls. Later she worked out a pencil factory. James was quiet and on the stern side, while Swannie was a buliant, friendly and a little bit mystical. She had visions and read tarot cards. In one of her visions, she saw Teresa with three daughters and three sons. Depending on who you ask, people remember the family differ diferently.

16:00 Some described the Cross household as distant, lacking warmth, although there were no reports of abuse or outright unkindness. Others recalled a heaviness in the home, perhaps left behind by a previous resident who had hanged himself on the back porch, leaving behind the stain of his discontent. Swannie Gay kept a tight household, expecting both of her daughters to cook and clean while she supervised. A decade earlier, Swannie Gay had been married to a man named Harry Tapp, a railroad engineer. He died in a boiler explosion. They had two children, a son named William and a daughter named Clara. She met and married Jim Cross in July nineteen forty two, when she was thirty four and he was thirty seven.

16:42 Jim made his contempt for his step children clear. Bill moved out as soon as he turned eighteen. Clara wasn't as lucky. He charged her sixty dollars a month for rent, taking most of what she earned waitressing. Sixty dollars a month then would be eight hundred dollars today. That's a lot of money. Wow, I'm so glad you never charged me wrent. After getting into legal trouble for marrying a fifteen year old girl, Bill joined the navy. Oh that's I know. It's creepy, right, yeah, very creepy. But people got married a lot younger back then, I know, but still fifteen ugh. Anyway, he was later discharged and then enlisted in the army, where he was again discharged, this time for theft. He later married and fathered three sons before he was again in trouble and then spent a good chunk of time in prison. Jim felt vindicated that he'd been right about Bill being a bad seed. When Jim was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, his personality began to change. He grew angry and verbally abusive toward his wife and his teenage daughters.

17:48 As his condition worsened, he could no longer work and became increasingly dependent on them for care. Teresa was Swannie Gay's clear favorite, and the two were especially close. But with girls her own age, Teresa could be off putting, and she struggled to maintain close friendships, honestly saying Teresa, however, from an early age, boys noticed her and she enjoyed the attention. Rosemary, by contrast, was kind and made friends easily. In May nineteen sixty one, Swannie Gay, diabetic, overweight and long warrant about her weak heart, collapsed and died of a heart attack as she was leaving the grocery store Teresa, just one week shy of her fifteenth birthday, was there.

18:29 She tried to catch her mother before she hit the ground. She was fifty three years old. Watching her mother slip away, holding her hand as it grew cold while waiting for the ambulance was traumatic for Teresa. Afterward, she began to act out. Rosemary tried to hold things together, but she was only seventeen, still in high school and working, and the weight of it all was too much for her to manage. A few weeks after Swannie Gay's death, Teresa convinced her friend Janet to run away with her and her boyfriend. They were only gone a few hours before he fell asleep behind the wind and rolled the car. The teens were forced to return home, but Teresa's father hadn't even noticed she was gone. Still immersed in his grief, Rosemary decided she didn't want to be Teresa's parent and Jim's caregiver. She moved out and got married in January nineteen sixty two, when she became pregnant. She miscarried, but later had two sons, though her relationships with her sister and father remained strange.

19:26 All right, So Teresa is our main character. And her sister is Rosemary, and they have this strained relationship. They are about two years apart. But Rosemary is more responsible, and you know, she's the typical older sister and she has just you know, moved out of the house and she wants to start her own life. Because Teresa was, you know, kind of an average belligerent teenager and she was tired of taking care of her sick father and her sister. Right, and she must be going through a lot of PTSD after that event with her mother dying grocery store. That's a lot of people pointed out that the only person that Teresa was ever really close to was her mom.

20:07 We'll be back after a break, But Teresa thought the best way to escape her situation was to get married. In September nineteen sixty two, at just sixteen, she eloped to Nevada to marry Clifford Clyde Sanders, twenty one, who worked as a carpenter. Her father gave his permission. Ten months after their wedding, Teresa gave birth to their first child, a son she named Howard, and ironically, Rosemary gave birth the next day at the same hospital with her first son. Soon the relationship turned volatile, often because of jealousy, and Clifford became abusive to Teresa. When Teresa became pregnant with her second child, cliff questioned if he was the father. Furious, Teresa took the baby and moved out to a small house in the nearby ruble town of Galt. Soon after, Teresa and cliff reunited, but the relationship was no calmer.

21:11 During one particularly heated argument, Teresa grabbed a shotgun and shot her husband. She ran to the neighbor's house, still in her night gown. The neighbor was a police officer, and he noted the bruises on her petite frame. She asked him to check on Cliff, not sure what his condition was, but the one shot proved to be fatal, and Teresa was arrested for his murder. In nineteen sixty four, women technically had the right to claim self defense, but the legal system rarely recognized the realities of domestic abuse, making those claims incredibly difficult to prove. So even though Teresa, just eighteen and pregnant, had been a victim at the hand of her now dead, twenty three year old husband, she stood trial for his murder.

21:57 Wait, So, just to clarify, Teresa's only eighteen here, and they've been married for two years now. She was sixteen when they got married. Okay, Wow, that still blows my mind. I can't imagine right being in that situation at that point in my life. When she testified, Teresa looked hopelessly young and vulnerable on the witness stand. She claimed that her husband tortured her, punching her in the face and burning her with cigarettes. But Cliff's brother and sister testified that Teresa was a terror and that Cliff had been scared of her. She was jealous and vindictive. The judge took Teresa into his chambers, where she showed him the cigarette burns on her body.

22:37 The trial took twelve days, but it took the jury less than two hours to find Teresa not guilty. She thanked and hugged the jurors after the verdict. Later, people pointed to Teresa's acquittal as a pivotal moment in her life, when she realized that she could get away with just about anything. While Teresa had been in jail, a friend had driven Little Howard to her sisters, Rosemary was smart and a hard worker, but her husband was a bit of a lump and couldn't keep a job for long. They lived in a small trailer with their one year old son and didn't have room or money for another mouth to feed. While Teresa awaited trial, Rosemary arranged for Howard to stay with an acquaintance, a newly married couple in their forties, b and Craig Howard. They quickly grew attached to the toddler, who showed signs of neglect, but he began to thrive under Bee's care. When Teresa returned for Howard three months later, Bee was heartbroken. The Howards allowed Teresa to stay with them while she reconnected with her son and tried to get back on her feet.

23:43 She agreed to their rules, no dating, go to school, help care for Howie, and contribute around the house. Craig later said she was the laziest human you ever saw. She'd sit in a rocking chair and just rock and rock and rock. Just couldn't hardly stand her. But she was a good look in Gail. He added. She didn't cook a thing, she didn't do a thing. It's hard to imagine somebody being lazy back in the day without having a smartphone to scroll on like sitting in a rocking chair and rocking like nowadays, that would be like probably good for you. That would be like meditating. Yeah. When Teresa did find work, it was as a nude model for a college art class. During that time, she began an affair with the instructor. And remember, Teresa, she's working as a nude model and she's pregnant. She's probably like six months pregnant at this point. Then she began dating a man, Estelle Lee Thornberry, a former soldier who'd been injured while in the army after he dove headfirst into shallow water that left him a quadriplegic. He received a generous check from the government each month and was able to shower Teresa with gifts and give her money for new clothes and the salon. On March thirteenth, nineteen sixty five, Teresa had her second child, a daughter she named Sheila Gay. The Howards would do just about anything to keep little Howard and baby Sheila living with them, but living with Teresa proved too challenging. Teresa and her

25:16 children moved in with Lee, but almost immediately she began seeing other men behind his back. He found used condoms and underwear in his car. She'd take the kids with her to bars at night and leave them in the car. How mad are you right now? Ick? That's so gross. Witnesses say that Teresa heavily favored Howie over Sheila, even though she was younger and a tiny baby. She often ignored her. An ex boyfriend said Teresa hated her from day one because she was pregnant with Sheila. When she killed Cliff, she blamed a lot of that on Sheila. People recalled that Sheila received spankings as young as eighteen months old, or what her mother deemed as miss Bay behavior.

26:01 If she spilled a glass of milk or left crumbs when she's eighteen months old, she would be yelled at or and sometimes spanked. That makes me want to cry, Lee. End of the relationship after about a year. His condition required extensive care, and Teresa wasn't interested in providing the level of support he needed. Next, she moved in with a seventeen year old marine named Bob Norr. They met when he was on leave over Christmas nineteen sixty five. Bob was quickly head over heels for Teresa. He wasn't aware of her complicated past. Teresa left the children for three weeks and flew to Hawaii, where Bob was stationed before deploying to Vietnam. Before he left, she told him that she was pregnant with his child. Bob promised to marry her and take care of the children when he returned.

26:50 So I said that Bob was seventeen years old. Back then, a lot of people would lie about their age so they could get into the military and fight. So Bob was shy twice in Vietnam, neither wound life threatening, but both painful. His third injury was far worse. An explosion peppered his body with shrapnel in thirty seven places, leaving him hospitalized for months. Though he was no longer fit for combat, he was still required to return to duty and was reassigned to serve in California. The injuries left him with permanent nerve damage. Despite the pain and suffering, Bob was happy to be home and now free to marry Teresa, who was seven months pregnant. On July ninth, nineteen sixty six, they were married in Carson City, Nevada.

27:36 Bob's parents warned him that he was making a huge mistake. He quickly learned that they were right. Teresa was extremely jealous, moody, and controlling. After witnessing the cruel way Teresa treated Sheila, Evie and pat works Bob's aunt and uncle, offered to take her in under the guise of helping her now heavily pregnant. Teresa once is a punishment, Teresa shaved her toddler daughter's head. That was a punishment that she would use over and over through the years. If she was unhappy with her kids, she would shave their head. That sounds like the flowers in the attic type tactic. I never read flowers in the attic, but you did. I think we talked about it actually on maybe our first Money's Day episode. It's something I think about more than I'd like to admit.

28:23 Someday I'll readid It took time, but in the care of the works Is, Sheila began speaking in full sentences after about a year. Teresa, who was likely worried that the works As would ask for their share of Shila's Social Security benefits from her father, demanded that her daughter be returned. Teresa's third child and Bob's first, Susan Marlene, Nore was born on September twenty seventh, nineteen sixty six. Three months later, she was pregnant again. So what happened to Sheila? She went back living with Teresa. So far we have Howie, who was the oldest, you know, he went to live with those people and he was better off. And then Sheila went to live with the Workses and she was better off. But they now that they're all living with Teresa now, okay, and I wish that was not the case.

29:13 Bob perceived a new assignment from the Marines as a burial escort, which required him to travel all over the US, which tormented his jealous wife. William Robert Nor was born on September fifteenth, nineteen sixty seven. Soon after Bob was promoted and the family moved to the San Francisco area, Teresa was pregnant again by the next summer. One day, while Bob was at work, Teresa moved out of the house and back to Rio Linda with her four children. She told her husband that she was tired of his cheating, and he maintains that he had never once been unfaithful. They got back. Together right before Robert Wallace Nor Junior was born New Year's nineteen sixty eight.

29:57 Okay, so he is their fifth child, their. Fifth child, and she's twenty two or twenty three. Wow, so you're way behind girl. Soon after Bob's time with the Marines came to an end, he struggled to find steady work and eventually took a job pumping gas at a service station. Meanwhile, Theresa opened credit card after credit card, quickly maxing them out. Raising five children was expensive, and she had a taste for the best of everything. By June nineteen sixty nine, the marriage had run out of steam, and Theresa filed for divorce on grounds of extreme cruelty, but soon after the two decided to give it another try.

30:40 She dismissed the divorce filing, and together they made plans to move to Washington State. Bob worked two minimum wage jobs, but it wasn't enough to keep the family afloat. Like many Vietnam veterans, he returned home to a country deeply divided over the war. Some Americans unfairly directed their anger towards the soldiers themselves, and for matty veterans. Finding steady, well paying work proved difficult, and Bob's injuries from the Vietnam War left him in constant pain and made it difficult for him to move. He applied for medical disability and was eventually approved. He never adjusted to the weather in Washington State, and as soon as the benefits came through, they moved back to California and Teresa was once again pregnant.

31:25 Bob returned to work at the gas station, this time learning the trade, working on cars and moving towards a management role. Teresa's jealousy was always worse during pregnancy. She wouldn't even allow him to watch television shows that featured women. By the summer of nineteen seventy, Bob was officially done with the marriage. He began dating a woman named Georgia Desuza, who, unlike Theresa, had a sweet personality and loved to laugh. They were married by the end of the year. Soon Bob noticed that Teresa was stalking them whenever they were on a date. She called Bob and tried to win him back, jealous at his new happiness, but he remained firm.

32:07 Even when their fourth child, Teresa Marie Nor, was born on August fifth, nineteen seventy, he refused to see her, convinced that she wasn't his, so she named her sixth child after herself. But we will call her Terry from for the rest of the case. Okay, okay, interesting choice. And also Swannie Gay's prediction was confirmed. She had three sons and three daughters. Yes, and she is afradially done having children. I don't want to give a spoiler, but I know everyone's probably like, holy cow, she cannot handle another child at this point. I don't know how she's doing it already. I mean, she's definitely not the world's best mother.

32:51 She probably doesn't have yet. The world's best mom coffee mug, she probably doesn't have that. I don't have that either. Actually, well, you're not exactly a coffee drinker, but I'm sure I've gotten you lots of sweet gifts over the years. Oh yeah, but none of them say world's best mom. Well it's not Mother's Day quite yet. So Teresa, now twenty five, met her next husband while working part time at a topless bar called Little Joe Ortega's. His name was Ron Pulliam, He was twenty eight and he worked on the railroad. The two married on March twenty seventh, nineteen seventy one, in Reno, Nevada. He became the instant father to six children, ranging in age from six months to eight years old. Terry, the youngest girl, remembers Ron fondly.

33:38 I was his kid, and he treated me like his kid. He'd say, how's daddy's little girl, and he'd pick me up and throw me in the air when he'd get home from work. I remember going places with him in his shiny red convertible. Ron was good to all of the children. They went camping or to the beach tera. It sounds like Ron gave them a little more fun than they had been having. He was like, let's take the kid and do some fun stuff. You know, we don't have to stay at home all the time. So out of all of her husbands, I felt like he might have been the best one. Teresa had refused to allow Bob to see the children, but Ron convinced her to allow visitation when the children returned. However, Teresa was cruel to them if they admitted they had a good time, or if they said anything kind about Georgia. When Georgia and Bob started their own family, he stopped asking to see the children as much. Less than a year into their marriage, Ron began to suspect Teresa was having an affair.

34:32 Was she still working at the Topless bar at this time? I'm not sure. I don't think so, okay, But she would disappear for hours, sometimes days at a time. He filed for divorce, but he worried about the children. Even after the separation, Ron allowed Teresa and the kids to continue living with him. It became clear that Teresa's problems went beyond being a neglectful wife and mother. She was also an alcoholic, and it didn't help that she met all of her boyfriends in bars. When she drank, her personality changed. Anger bubbled up inside her, spewing out red hot, her tongue sharpened, and her words cut deep. So if you are only meeting men in bars, what kind of men are you probably meeting? Maybe not the best ones or men that all.

35:16 It sounds like she's met pretty much all of her men in bars because she used to take the children there. I see a lot of the men that she's been meeting also have issues with alcohol. Right as Teresa and Ron's divorce was working its way through the courts and the messy division of their debt, she met her next boyfriend, another Ron Ron Bollington, to get Teresa out of his house. Her ex husband, Ron Pulliam, agreed to help her buy a new, four bedroom, two bathroom house for twenty one thousand dollars. She was selling Amway and couldn't really afford the house, but it wasn't Ron's problem anymore, although Teresa wasn't done tormenting him. One day, while Ron was at work, she and her new boyfriend cleared out his house, furniture, appliances, everything, and moved it to her new place. When he reported it, police called it a civil matter and refused to intervene. After Ron Bullington, something shifted into Resa. She stopped bringing men into the house.

36:15 She still went to bars, but the encounters stayed elsewhere, hotels, never home. She had no interest in long term relationships or marriage. As she approached her thirties, with a house full of children, no longer in that cute stage, it became harder to find a boyfriend. She blamed them. Most of her time was spent inside the house with her children, a house she took pride in set in a walkable neighborhood near the schools in town. For a woman who had grown up dirt poor in the country. It felt like a step up, and even though they were still struggling, she was able to provide for her children. When she disappeared on her drinking binges, Howard was left in charge.

36:57 He took that role seriously, kind and with the siblings, offering the care and steadiness their mother did not. As the children grew older, Teresa's punishments became more extreme. She locked one daughter inside a deep freezer and forced her siblings to sit on the lid so she couldn't get out. She made another stand naked in a corner and whipped her with a willow branch. There was one rule above all others. No one was to speak about what happened inside the house, not the abuse, not the neglect, not the lack of food or money. And if that rule was broken, the punishment was severe. With six children, money was always tight. Teresa began working as a nurse's aide and enjoyed the work. She decided to become a registered nurse, but it was hard to find the time to study with six children and her trips to the bar. So of anything, I have underplayed the punishments and the abuse in this case, But can you believe some of her punishments.

37:54 They're horrible. I know, it seems like she is not she's not fit to be a mother, and it's really sad. I mean, and she's still really young. She didn't have the best upbringing. And remind me how old was she when her own mother died. She was fifteen. It was days before her fifteenth birthday. I believe. Wow. I think the financial instability played a big part in this too. I mean, having to stretch the little money that she had to six kids. It was probably just constant stress. And she almost sounded like I didn't talk about this much, but she was obsessive compulsive about cleaning, like everything had to be really clean. And once she was a nurse's age, she really learned how to disinfect things.

38:39 And she always wanted the house to be Christine, and you know, with kids, it's really hard for that to happen. Right. It seems like that's her only other outlet other than going to the bar all the time. But it doesn't seem to be helping much either. So Teresa met chat Harris fifty two after he moved to California following the end of his second marriage. He had worked for a number of newspapers, including more than twenty years at the Sun Telegraph in Pittsburgh, and had written three books, but those days were behind him. After leaving his most recent wife in Saint Louis, he relocated to California and began working at the Sacramento Bee, hoping to spend the rest of his life in a warmer climate. At more than three hundred pounds some estimated four hundred, life was not easy for Chat. He drank for hours each day, double fisting drinks, smoked two packs of cigarettes, and ate a horrible diet of processed food. I mean, what a catch, right, I know, I'm surprised. I mean, I don't know what these other fellows look like, but it seems like Teresa's lowered her.

39:43 Standards a bit. Well, a lot of her husband's or boyfriends were younger than her, so Chet is significantly older and you know, like a pretty big, unhealthy guy. After his move, he became a dedicated regular at the American Legion in Rio Linda, choosing the seat at the end. Of the bar. His friends from the time compared him to Norm from Cheers. Patty know who that is? You have no idea now, I tell. You, Patty Williams remembers Chat he was married at least five or six times, which is amazing in itself because I can't imagine five or six women in this world who would want to marry him. He was pretty gross. He married a woman after his move Roxy, but it only lasted a month. He met Teresa during the summer of nineteen seventy six. They started talking about marriage three days after meeting and were married by August. It was pretty clear that Teresa saw stability for her and her children in Chet. He didn't have a lot of money, but he had a study income. She sold her house and moved to Chet's house in Rio Linda almost immediately.

40:47 She insisted he put an addition on the house. Chet, however, wasn't cut out to be a stepfather. He made up cruel nicknames for the children. He called Robert the Killer, William the Coward, Teresa the Stripper, and Sheila Susan's dog. It's horrible, isn't it. Yeah. Susan was just ten, a pretty girl, and she quickly became Chet's favorite. Teresa didn't know about Chet's dark secrets when she and the children moved into his house. He asked her to be nude much of the time and took pictures of her so mom Teresa, hmm, okay, not the child, No, not the child, but he did have a fixation on susan Ah. His pornography addiction, coupled with Teresa's refusal to give up the bar scene, quickly ended the marriage. Her house was already an escrow, but she pulled out of the deal and moved back in.

41:42 It would be her last attempt at marriage. Can you imagine your marriage being so like? It was less than three months? And this is what her third marriage? Or is it I have lost track? I think it's her four? Oh goodness. The divorce, for Chat seemed to really do Teresa in. She was never the same after her daughter. Terry said she really went over the edge with chet Harris. After Harris, she dated for a little while, but then she got to the point where she couldn't date or Mary or anything. She became mean, stopped seeing people, and developed a hair trigger temper with her children, especially the girls. Once she held a gun to Terry's temple and threatened to shoot her for absolutely no reason. The boys were rarely be in or punished, but the girls were under constant attack, and like many abusers, Teresa would later act as if nothing had happened, sometimes even trying to make it up to them. She read to the children, sometimes from the Bible and other times from the books of her favorite author, Stephen King. Teresa's favorite child was Billy or William. He slept in her bed until he was twelve years old.

42:55 Yeah, we'll be. Right back after a break. As Howard reached his teen years, he grew tall, looming over his mother. Gone was the sweet boy who'd cared for and protected his younger siblings. Now he teamed up with Teresa and helped her punish them. When Terry was six, he sexually assaulted her and then Susan, encouraging his brother Robert to join in. When Teresa found out, she beat him and he took it. Knowing that he was wrong, Howard turned to drugs, pot, speed, mushrooms, and acid. He wasn't greedy, willing to share his stash with his siblings, even the youngest ones. Robert later said, I was doing bong loads of marijuana at age seven or eight. I'm amazed I have any brain cells left. Howard also dealt drugs.

43:53 He shared the profits with his mother, so she didn't care. Sometimes she even stole pills from the patients at the nursing home for him to sell. In November nineteen seventy nine, a family tragedy brought Teresa and her sister Rosemary back into each other's lives. They had seen each other only a handful of times in the past twenty years, despite living just miles apart. Rosemary's sixteen year old son, Joey, had died suddenly of acute myocarditis. He'd been healthy up until his death. Though the sisters were never close, their sons, Howard and Joseph or in just one day apart, attended the same high school and had become friendly. One possible cause of myocarditis is drug toxicity or drug overdose, though it's more commonly linked to viral infection. The sisters enjoyed a brief reconciliation, but after Rosemary loaned Theresa money she couldn't repay, she began avoiding her. So I think the implication there is that Joey may have died from drugs that were given to him by Howard.

44:57 That's what I was thinking. Sheila, Teresa's eldest daughter was slower than the other children and often resisted doing her chores, coming across as generally unmotivated. After ninth grade, she dropped out of school. Teresa was tired of working and decided to collect disability benefits on behalf of Sheila. She coached her on how to answer questions and present herself as mentally challenged. During the interview, Sheila arrived unbathed, wearing ratty clothes and no shoes. And the book I read for this case it said that this is so gross, but they put fecal matter in her hair to make her seem like she didn't know better.

45:40 Sheila was approved to receive government payments that went directly into Teresa's pockets, so a source of income for Teresa was so now she's getting these payments for Sheila, But she also had received Social Security benefits from her first husband's the two children that came from her first marriage, so she was receiving not a lot of money, but you know, a little bit of help from the government there, Okay. So the other kids were expected to bring in an income too, babysitting, paper routs and other odd jobs. Susan was the brightest of Teresa's children genius level, even eligible to attend a school for gifted students. She had a strange fascination with Satan and the occult, and at times her mother accused her of being a witch. Susan dropped out of school in eighth grade and no one made her go back. She ran away and went to the children's receiving Home of Sacramento. The children's receiving Home wasn't meant to be permanent, was where children were taken when there was no else, nowhere else for them to go in an emergency. But life there wasn't easy for Susan.

46:48 She eventually left, spent time living on the streets, and at times survived through sex work. Later, she was returned to the children's home, but she proved too defiant and Teresa was called to come get her daughter. Once home, Teresa delivered the beating of a lifetime, then made Susan's siblings all punch and slap her too for the embarrassment she brought to the family. Do you remember what Teresa's number one rule is? Don't talk about what happens in. The house exactly. Susan was often handcuffed to her bed, so she couldn't escape again. Her behavior began to frighten everyone in the house. She scared her family by speaking in demonic voices and making ominous predictions about them. She warned that Howard would kill them all. Teresa thought that she was possessed by a dark force. Teresa was growing increasingly preoccupied with her appearance. She had gained weight, and she felt herself aging and resented the loss of the male attention she had once received. She was convinced that her daughter was using dark magic against her and making her gain weight while Susan was becoming more beautiful. Teresa started to become untethered from reality and grew paranoid that her children were trying to kill her. One day, a fight with Susan escalated and Teresa shot her daughter in the chest, and she fell into the bathtub. Snapped back to reality. Teresa apologized, sobbing to Susan, who told her

48:19 that she loved her and forgave her. She needed medical attention, but Teresa refused to take her to the hospital, afraid of the consequences. Over her years as a nurse, Teresa had stockpiled all of the necessary supplies she needed to take care of Susan, although the bullet remained lodged in her rib cage. It took a month, but she seemed to make a full recovery. So for that month Susan remained in the bathtub and she would like take care of her, dress her wounds every day in the bathtub. Wow. So do you think she shot her with the intent of killing her? I don't really know. It seemed like maybe she just did it impulsively out of anger and then she realized what she'd done.

49:02 Or was it self defense like with her ex husband. Oh, yes, self defense and quotations. So Teresa remained convinced that Susan was possessed. When a local Baptist church refused to perform an exorcism, she decided to carry one out herself with the help of her children, but it didn't go as she expected. Teresa began having vivid, frightening visions that her children were trying to kill her. Terrified, she fled the house and spent three days alone in a hotel. Convinced that her life was in danger. Susan was still watched carefully by her family. Teresa drugged her at night so she couldn't cast spells on them while she slept. For a time, Howard's girlfriend, Connie, lived with a family, and what she saw unsettled her. The dysfunction was impossible to ignore, though she thought Susan seemed relatively normal by comparison.

49:55 The police raided the home. Everyone was questioned about Howard's drug operation. No one talked except Connie. By speaking to the police, she broke an unspoken rule in the house, and it cost her. Howard ended the relationship, but in nineteen eighty four they rekindled the relationship and got married. In Nevada, several members of the Hell's Angel motorcycle club lived in Teresa's neighborhood. At first, there had been some level of familiarity, even friendliness, but that didn't last. As tensions grew, the relationship turned hostile. The gang began making their expectations clear. Teresa needed to put her house up for sale and leave. If she didn't, they warned they would make life very difficult for her and her family.

50:40 Teresa's house sold quickly for thirty five thousand dollars. The family moved to a seedy part of Sacramento into an apartment. With the money from the sale of the house, Teresa was able to pay back her sister Rosemary. There was a brief time that the sisters became close again. Teresa had always been envious of her sister's steady job and marriage, but Rosemary revealed that things had been rocky since Joey's death. Her husband had been having affairs. Shortly after, in November nineteen eighty three, Rosemary, nearly forty, was found murdered by strangulation. Her husband, Floyd, quickly received two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in life insurance payments. Rosemary's murder was never solved.

51:26 Oh goodness, poor Rosemary. She had a hard life. Yeah, it seems like there's definitely some generational trauma at play here. But wow, very sad. So her husband he might have I'm not sure if he was arrested or not, but he was looked at very closely during a strangulation. A lot of times it's partner violence. But there just wasn't enough to tie him to the crime. There was like no forensic evidence, I guess. After the household, the sudden cash brought a brief sense of stability, almost happiness. Teresa spent freely buying gifts and cars for the family, but when the money was gone, things went back to normal. Worse even She began sending her daughters out to earn money on the streets, forcing them into sex work. Teresa was unbelievably cruel and beat her daughter's non stop. Once she threw a pair of scissors at Susan and they lodged in her back, Susan decided to strike out on her own. She set her sights on Alaska. She made the mistake of telling her mother, but surprisingly she agreed on one condition. She needed to remove the bullet from Susan so it would never be traced back to her. So she still has the bullet in her from his.

52:42 Bullet had remained in her body, but it was the bullet was serendipitus. That hadn't hit anything, you know, any major arteries. So sometimes that actually happens, that they just leave things in your body because it's safer to leave them there than have them removed. In this case, if she had gone to the hospital, they would have removed. It right They set up a makeshift operating suite in the dining room. Teresa gave Susan half a bottle of Southern comfort and a handful of pills she made. Robert cut into his sister using an exacto knife. The bullet was visible just beneath Susan's shoulder blade. He fished the bullet out and then covered the wound with butterfly bandages.

53:24 She came two hours later, but she never recovered fully. Despite Teresa giving her antibiotics and other medications, her condition worsened, her fever climbing higher each day. She remained lying on the floor of the dining room, the family stepping over her. Susan slipped into a coma and the whites of her eyes yellowed. She was in dire need of medical care, but Teresa refused to take her to the hospital, knowing what it would mean she would be held responsible. How insane is this? I know so and Teresa, her brother is like a medical background. I mean, she's never been in surgery, but she makes her son cut into his sister. I guess the bullet was like visible, and it was. He didn't have to cut very far, but still still, I wonder what was going through his mind at that moment. Yeah, well, the kids were all so scared of her, and he was the youngest son so yeah, I think that, you know, like abused children, they'll do anything their parents tell them to write.

54:29 On July fifteenth, nineteen eighty three, with Susan barely clinging to life, her belongings were packed into hefty bags and placed in the backseat of Teresa's car. Then Susan was laid beside them. Robert, Bill, Terry, and Theresa drove around for a time, but the car's engine started acting up. Ultimately, they returned to the apartment, carrying Susan in the hefty bags back inside and placing them in the dining room. The next night, they tried again. This time they covered Susan's mouth with duct tape and bound her wrists, though there was no need she was unconscious and barely breathing. They drove south on Highway eighty nine until they reached Squaw Creek, a dark, remote stretch where the sky was thick with stars. They pulled over and got out, carrying Susan and her belongings down toward the creek bed. Teresa took a gas cand and doused her daughter with gasoline, then told Bill to light a match as she walked back to the car. Moments later, flames erupted into the night sky. The coroner believed that Susan was still alive when the fire washed over her body. So this is the incident that we talked about right at the store, right, Yeah, wow, just so just tragic. You know, did they think she was dead when they did this or no?

55:50 I guess that they knew that she was still alive because she was mumbling a little bit. I think in the car just so said like, why couldn't you have driven her. To the hospital right, just out of the Teresa's fear of getting caught. Yeah, poor Susan. Bright. Then the boys and Terry were mostly grown, working and beginning lives of their own. With Susan gone, Teresa's focus shifted to Sheila. Often left alone, Teresa savagely beat her and locked her in the linen closet for days in the summer heat. She didn't allow her food, water, or use of the bathroom. And the linen closet was super tiny, like two feet by two feet, Like she couldn't stand, she couldn't There was just no way to find comfort in this small space.

56:38 It's terrible. Terry checked on her while their mother was out on a quick trip to the store. Sheila looked like she was dying, wearing only underwear and socks. Terry still carries the weight of not getting help, but she knew what her mother was capable of. Days later, a stench filled the apartment. Teresa finally opened the closet door. She was dead. She ordered Bill and Robert to put her body in a cardboard box. This part of the book was horrific, like the description, and I'm going to spare you the details, but it was so horrible the way that they found her body. The three of them loaded the box into the car and once again drove along Highway eighty nine. They had planned to bury her, but a police car pulled up behind them. Theresa stayed calm, telling the officer her sons had simply stopped to relieve themselves in the woods. Despite the smell coming from the box in the back seat, the officer let them go. She was eventually discovered by campers and classified as a Jane Doe. Her death was ruled undetermined. Suspicion later fell on a truck driver who frequented the area, Benjamin Herbert Boyle, already charged in the rape and murder of another young woman, Gail the north Smith twenty years old. Investigators noted similarities blanket and rope fibers consistent with items he owned, but there wasn't enough evidence to link him.

58:02 To Sheila's staff. Teresa and her remaining children cleaned their apartment and cars and donated Sheila's possessions to Goodwill, erasing any trace of her, but the memory of what they'd done would haunt them. James Cross, Teresa's father, outlived two of his granddaughters despite his illness. He died in November nineteen eighty five at eighty years of age. So I haven't talked much about James throughout the story, but Teresa obviously a horrible person, but she did care for her father, and he was in a home at the end, but often during his life he lived with her and she took care of him. Terry was still just fifteen, and she'd seen way too much violence and cruelty in her young life. She dropped out of school and began working full time. So all the girls dropped out of school young, but the boys finished school. Terry avoided spending time with her mother, and things were okay as long as she handed over her paycheck to her, but then Teresa began beating her and handcuffing her to the bed. The linen closet where Sheila had died haunted Teresa.

59:13 She was convinced that it still held evidence that she couldn't scrub away, so she made Terry an offer for in the apartment building down and she'd finally be free of her. So they emptied the apartment of the things that they wanted to keep. Then Terry doused the apartment with three containers of charcoal lighter fluid before lighting a match and escaping out a window, but they underestimated the speed at which the fired department would arrive. The apartment suffered only miter damage, and it was obvious it was an arson attempt. Theresa was furious with Terry and began beating her, blaming her for doing a shoddy job. Terry, younger and faster, dodged her mother's angry fists. She looked her in the eye and told her, defian, You'll never touch me again. She walked out just fifteen. She was placed in foster care, eventually going to live with her father, Bob Norr, whom she hadn't seen in years. But the stability didn't last, and soon she moved in with a boyfriend and fell into a cycle of partying, drugs, and alcohol.

1:00:20 So you might be wondering what happened to Howard. Well, Howard had moved out. He got married to Connie and they had a one year old baby boy, and Connie was pregnant with their second child, and he beat the baby so badly that he almost died, and Howard was arrested and jailed for beating his son. Bill moved in with his girlfriend. He worked two jobs and went to school. He cut off his family completely. Theresa was left with only Robert sixteen. They stayed in a series of cheap motels before they decided to move to Reno, Nevada. Soon, Robert was addicted to drugs and unable to hold down a job. Finally, Teresa got a job as a cook at a casino. She hadn't worked in years because the kids were supporting her for the most part. She called the police on Robert and tried to get him fired from his job. He moved back to California and lost touch with Teresa. For a while, no one knew where she was. Robert's addiction to drugs and alcohol worsened, as did his criminal record. In nineteen ninety three, he was involved in the robbery and murder of a bar owner, landing him in prison for fifteen years. Terry had lived fast and hard. A tattoo on her ankle read classic bitch.

1:01:38 She drifted through abusive relationships, and she struggled with addiction. She attempted to take her own life twice, but in nineteen ninety three she married a man named Michael Grove. When she told him about her family, especially how her sisters had died, he urged her to go to the police. She did, but they never quite believed her story. Sorry. It wasn't until October nineteen ninety three, while watching America's Most Wanted that she finally decided to act. She called the number at the bottom of the screen. A person who answered told her that they couldn't initiate an investigation, but they helped connect Terry with the police department that could.

1:02:19 She told her story again, which they found hard to believe, but they were able to track down Bill and his story was similar. But there was one problem. No one knew where Teresa was. She had cut ties with her children and was working as a livid nurse for an eighty six year old woman named Alice Sullivan. Alice's family was grateful, believing Teresa was taking excellent care of their mother. The family thought that she was a little odd. She wore wigs, and she kept to herself and carried herself with an air of mystery. Then one night, as Teresa sat down with a pizza and turned on the news, she saw her daughter Terry on the screen. My mother is a very sick woman, Terry said, what right did she have to take my sisters away from me? Theresa asked her employer for a five thousand dollar advance to pay back taxes she claimed, and then she left for New York to care for another elderly patient. But before long she returned to Salt Lake City, the police were narrowing in on her. Theresa was arrested on November tenth, nineteen ninety three, in charge with the murders of Susan and Sheilah, along with years of abuse inflicted on her children.

1:03:35 Faced with overwhelming evidence and testimony from her son's and remaining daughter, she pleaded guilty. In nineteen ninety five. She was sentenced to two consecutive life terms in prison, where she remains to day she will be eligible for parole. In twenty twenty seven, Robert was sentenced to fifteen years to life in prison, and William received a shorter term of about three years for co operating with the head investigators, while Terry, treated as a victim, became one of the key voices that finally brought the truth to light. What had once been hidden behind closed door is dismissed, ignored, were never reported, was finally brought into the open. But by then two young women had already lost their lives, and the damage done to their surviving children would last far beyond any sentence handed down in court. Sadly, Terry died from a heart attack in twenty eleven at age forty one. Rest in peace, Susan, Sheila, and Terry. You all deserved so much better. I tried to track down the rest of the kids and the boys, I guess, and I couldn't really find much on them. But in twenty sixteen, Robert was convicted on child pornography charges. I think the only one that is living in Okay life is Bill. He seemed like the most normal one, but had tried arrested at some point. Well, he I think he went to prison for his part in the deaths of his sisters because remember he was in the car

1:05:06 and he you know. He was technically complicit. Yeah. Wow. Well, as horrible as it is, I'm glad that Teresa was brought to justice. I mean, was she though? I mean not soon enough, that's for sure. Should she have been arrested when she killed her first husband? Because I think it's so unfair and I don't believe in the death penalty. It's so unfair that she's still alive even though she's in prison and she killed two of her. The fact that she's eligible for parole, well, just eligible for parole. I bet she won't be given parole. I think she was up in twenty twenty four and she wasn't granted it.

1:05:49 Then I would guess that she would never get parole for what she did. She is really really scary. How deeply was Teresa affected by her mother's death or had she been headed down a dark path before her death? Like? Was she kind of like a bad pert? I guess I didn't give you enough background information really to answer that. I was because she wasn't really troublesome as a teenager. Right, and I was wondering if she had faced any abuse in her early years. I don't think so. I think her father was kind of stern. But people said that Swannie Gay was really funny and lovely. And yeah. Do you think that Teresa should have been acquitted in the shooting death of her first husband.

1:06:29 It's tough to say, because while I want to believe it was self defense, I based on everything that followed in her later years, it seems like she. Should have been Yeah. I think so too. Do you think that the system failed these children? Yes, yeah, because they stopped the girls stopped showing up at school, and the truant officers tried to get them back in school, but Teresa would just tell them you don't have to go to school, and she would ignore them. So yeah, they just never knew it was an option to escape their circumstances. Yeah, that's so sad. Why do you think that Terry eventually came forward and called the police.

1:07:14 I think living through everything that happened, watching her sister undergo surgery by their brother, living with all of that must have been excruciating, and I'm sure she was at the point where she just couldn't she haunted her? Right. I think all of the kids were just so scared of their mom, and that's why it took her so long to realize, wait a minute, you know, I need to find justice for my sisters. And that was I saw some interviews with her, and it was really important to her that her sisters be remembered, and she realized, I love them much more than I realized I did, and just the trauma in their life.

1:08:00 Did Terry ever have children herself? I don't think she did. I think she said in one interview that the abuse that she had suffered as a child was so severe that it caused her not to be able to have children. Well, well, I hope that the children of that other siblings were at least able to heal from that generational trauma and find a good path for themselves. Do you mean the boy? The boy, Well, yeah, they don't have a kid. I think he has a family, okay. And Howard has a couple of children too. I couldn't find any information on Howard. He's not in jail, that's all I can tell you, Okay. And he was the one who beat his one year old son. M Okay, do you think the boys were victims or accomplices.

1:08:46 That's also tricky to say, but I think first and foremost they were victims. Yes, I agree. What do you think about Teresa being such a good caregiver at the end of prior to her arrest, because the people that she cared for were like, oh, she was so and loving and we loved having her. Yeah, that kind of crazy. It is strange. It makes me wonder if maybe she's trying to atone for all of her sins, her horrible wrongdoings. Well, I hope that at some point this family is able to end the cycle of abuse. Me too. In the spirit of Mother's Day, something that has really moved me and Dad when we do the podcast is how many moms become fearless advocates for their children.

1:09:34 And I'm going to have you read it because I keep crying that I try to read it. I'll do my best. Some mothers refuse to let tragedy be the end of their child's story. After her daughter Carrie was killed by a drunk driver, Candy Lightner founded Mothers Against Drunk Driving. After Megan Kanka's murder, Maureen Keanka pushed for laws requiring communities to be notified when registered sex offenders move into their neighborhoods. Be came Megan's Law. After Trayvon Martin's death, Sabrina Fulton became a national advocate for rachel justice and gun violence awareness, and after Eric Garner died, his mother, Gwen Carr, fought for police accountability and reform. It wasn't a path they chose intentionally, but they refuse to let their children's names fade. They didn't stop being mothers. They've carried their maternal love into the world, fighting to make the world a better place. Moms are what make the world go round.

1:10:31 Well, thank you so much for reading that. Sometimes I just I'm just a big baby and I start crying. But moms are so important. And if you have a good one, hug her today, and I shouldn't. I feel like Mother's Day wee get lost in mothers. But women in general, I feel like so many women that don't have biological children. You know you have pets, or you know you're a teacher or a nurse or so many women are really great role models and put so much love and care into the world. And you're one of those. You're one of those today. I mean, you're at camp mom, but with your work that you do, you give so much love to those kids, and it makes a difference. Yeah. Well, I couldn't have done it without having such a great role model. Well, and let me just say you, I couldn't do this reading such a gruesome material with anyone else because you are the person who makes me feel most safe in this world.

1:11:27 Well, you're amazed. You're an amazing young woman, and I am very proud of you, and I love you very much and I'm so glad that you are here today. I love you too. Well, that was lovely listening to the two of you talk and. Cover that car. Where did you come from? I've been here the whole no toys allowed. You made me tear up there at the end. Yeah, we have the others sweetest daughter, Yeah, and son. You're both you're both amazing, doubly blessed. So but now we are going to find out how well you actually know each other. So I put together a little quiz and you each sent me your answers of what you expect the other one to say.

1:12:09 I'm nervous about this because I don't think I'm gonna get many right. All right, So the first question was if the house was on fire and you could only grab one thing, what would it be? So you've each made your prediction of what the other person will say. So, Tina, why don't you start? If the house was on fire and you could only grab one thing, what would it be? Oh? Me, yeah, I would grab pictures, pictures. Emma, what would you grab? Probably my giddy cats? All right? So wait, I feel bad I would grab the cats too, because I like. Yeah, Well, Tina, you predicted that Emma would say she. Would grab I mean, I knew she would say that. Yeah, but Emma, you predicted that Mom would grab her airs, which.

1:12:57 Well that surminds me a little bit. That's what you thought Mom would go for or first. But it's so funny. Even my MacBook, what would have my earpot? Okay, actually I want to change my inside. I think you'd actually grab your Stanley cupple. I lost my Awala cup at the Airbnb were last week. I was so sad, the second time I've lost a water bottle at an Airbnb. It was sad. I thought when you said Mom would grab her Stanley cuff that she had one playing. Hockey was what you meant? All right? Next question, what is your favorite snack or treat? Tina? Why don't we start with you? What is your favorite? It varies from day to day. I think like if I had to pick one for all time, it would probably be like potato chips and French onion dip, which I bet you didn't guess.

1:13:42 And Emma, what would you would you say Cheetos? No, like Cheeto's a lot, I guess I was kind of thinking more of sweet treats. Okay, Emma, what would be your favorite treat? That's also really tough, But I eat ninety percent of my diet is peanut butter, so it would probably just be peanut butter. Oh, I say both way off? Mom predicted way off you would say tin fish and Emma predicted that you would say cheesecake. Oh. I almost never eat cheesecake only on my birth I love it, but I'm more of like for snacks and more. Salty and not just for snacks, I would say. The next question is what is your biggest pet? Peeve, your biggest only one only one purpose?

1:14:25 I don't know. I really it's so hard. I don't know. Just in general, people not cleaning up after themselves, all right. And Emma, what would be your pet peeve? Probably outside clothes on the bed, outside clothes on the bed, Okay. Did I I'm pretty sure I said something you. Did at first but changed your I did. And dead was like, what I thought? That was very odd. But Emma, you predicted that mom would say damp rags by the kitchen sink. Which is which is pretty power with what you said. And Tina, you said that Emma's pet peeve would be parents of preschooler as well. You have I put that in your head. You did put it in my head because I realistic, because I did say you said.

1:15:07 I did say, Well, you said. People sitting on them as bad, like she doesn't like anyone to sit right, Like if I would come in and talk to you, you'd be like, why are you sitting in my bed? But if you had put on fresh pajamas, I would be okay with it? Okay, all right, Next one, I think, And next one I think is a softball question. What is your favorite color? Tina? What is your favorite color? I mean it depends from day to day, Like today I have this powder blue. I think this is a very nice color. I would say yellow in general, and Emma, what would you say? Again, it varies, but I think green or pink. Okay, well, you guessed Emma would say pink. You guessed the mom would say yellow. That's why your cookies are so nice, because they're yellow and pink.

1:15:49 All right, what is your dream vacation? What is your dream vacation? I don't even know what is my dream vacation. I don't know, something very low key, I don't. I don't know. I like vacation, tough questions. Okay, give me some time. Okay, Well, Emma, what is your dream vacation? While Mom is thinking, ohkay wait, I would probably say, like, I know it's this is so lame, and I know I'm lame, Please forgive me. But like just even going to Traverse City. I love going to Traverse City and eating in all our favorite places and hanging out at the lake. So yeah, I'm going to say that. That's also a tricky one. I like exploring new places and anything involving hiking, nature, camping even.

1:16:35 Well, Mom predicted you would say hiking in Marquette. Can you really love Marquess? Emma, you predicted Mom would say being in a nice Airbnb somewhere, which is pretty close to what right? No, I do like being in a nice, relaxing Airbnb where I don't have to like clean anything. And yeah, all right. Two more. If you had a superpower, what would it be? What would be your superpower to do a podcast without stumbling over my worries all the time? I would probably like to fly? Okay, Emma, what would be your superpower? Probably it's flying. Isn't really a superpower? Yeah, sure it is, okay, superman. I don't know if it counts as a superpower, but I've always wanted to be able to lucid.

1:17:17 Dream lucid dreaming. Okay. Well, interestingly, you both predicted the other would say the same thing. You both said mind reading. Hmmm, interesting. You read each other's mind. And then the last question. What do you admire most about each other? Tina? What what I most? What do you most admire about Emma? I mean, how much time do you have? I think the thing I most admire is your sense of creativity? And you're artistic. You're very artistic. You've been a great artist since you've been like two. And you're just beautiful and kind and you're kind of like a mother, nature soul.

1:17:59 And Emma, what do you admire most about mom? Again? Where to start? But I feel like I think I admire most about my mom is I think you are very clever, and I've always thought you had a weigh with words, and I admire the way you interact with other people. Oh that's very kind. Thank you. Well, you predicted that Emma would say she admires your sense of humor, which is close. And then Emma, you predicted that Mom would say she admires how silly you are. I was going to say that too. Yes, I mean, just you're just a wonderful young person, and I just I guess I've been saying too many nice things about you. But you're both swell, and you both you obviously know each other pretty well.

1:18:44 So nice child. Just being a mom is something that I take very seriously and I would never take for granted. And it is the greatest blessing that I have in my life. And I'm so grateful that I can be a mom to too great And I'm so grateful to you Richard. Well, I know it's not but like you are a great partner and you I couldn't be you know, the mom that I am without a partner like you. So anyway, Oh, I know everyone's like, give me where's the where's the vomit bucket? But we're very lucky and we're very lucky to have you listening to our podcast right now. We hope so much that you have enjoyed this episode. Emma, thank you so much for coming back for the third year in a row. Well, thank you for having me literally.

1:19:32 Good one. Well until next time, don't kill your mom and don't kill a kid. The bank of the to