Nancy and Brad Cooper - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. In some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I'm going shithouse? How are you going? That is your new favorite phrase, isn't it my new catchphrase? So we're leaving for vacation, even though we are already back for vacation. If you're listening to this, but you had a great time, Yeah, you're tying up a lot of loose ends. So am I. Yeah, yeah, it's a little stressful.

0:49 It is a little bit, but I'm looking forward to vacation. Yeah, definitely. So last episode, you asked me where I was on the scale of wanting to kill your spouse, and I forgot to ask you. So I wanted to bring it up because I was. I started thinking about it. I was like, wow, I didn't ask, so I have no idea. Well, and you know that's why you're always on the bubble. That's why you're always in trouble because you forget that I have feelings. I know. You're always great, you're always at the below zero like negative to the you're safe, you're well meaning, like that's how little I want you to. D Okay, that's good, I'll take it. I'm still good on the marriage meter.

1:31 Yes, nothing has changed since we spoke yesterday. Even if I was like, you know, a ninety nine out of one hundred, you're just a docile human being. I don't think you would ever hurt her. Of course not. It is hot as heck here in Michigan today. It's about as hot as it can possibly get hair because it's ninety five with a heat index. It's one oh five. And we should be complaining because we're inside our air conditioned house. The air condition can only do so much, and I have been sticky all afternoon. It's no surprise that we live really close to Hell. Oh we do. We live close to Hell, Michigan, which is an actual place. You recently met a friend there? I did. I went to the Hell Saloon and yeah, did we have a good time. I did have a good time. Yeah. It's it's a cute little town. It's kind of like a kitchy little thing with you know, themes like Hell. There's not much to it, but it's well.

2:19 There's isn't there. There's an ice cream place and like a mini pup place and a couple of little shops. It's a cute little place. Yeah. We are at the peak of cherry season here in Michigan, which is one of my favorite times a year. Cherries are one of my favorite fruits, and they really are delicious here in Michigan. So I made you a snack. I made you some cookies. I went to our local market the other day and I got some cherries, some fresh cherries, but I also got dried cherries. Interesting. So I made you some cookies. And I've never made cherry cookies before. This is a recipe from Sally's Baking. It is white chocolate chip cherry oatmeal cookies. I know you're not the biggest oatmeal guy, but I don't.

3:00 Mind oatmeal as long as there's not like raisins in it. I think everything else it looks good. So I think cherry tried cherries and raises they're pretty similar. Not really, how are they not? Really? Because they're both like it's a grape that's dried or a cherry that's drucke. They are there are similarities for sure, But raisins I just don't care for. But it's of like a plump fresh raisin sometimes like in the box of raisin brand, like they get kind of crusty and gross. But no, you're just a yeah. But those cookies look really good. Yeah, all right, we're gonna get them. Try. I sure do.

3:42 Rate my cookie. I thought it was excellent, really good, goodlavor. I didn't get a lot of cherry out of it, maybe just the bites I had didn't have a lot of cherry. I put like one and a half times in the cherries to be. Called for, but very oatmeal forward. We've been watching Cop Shecheff a lot lately. In cases, yes, you didn't realize they were that phrase came from But no, I loved it. I think nine out of ten. Oh, okay, you're maybe an easy grader. Well when it comes to cookies, I like you said on part one, I haven't been eating sugar lately, so any kind of sweet tree is probably gonna taste really good. Well, I'm so glad that you like them. Maybe we can take a few on vacation.

4:23 Yeah, let's do it, all right, Are. You ready to get back to Nancy and Brad Cooper. I am do you want to give us a summary? Sure? Canadian couple Nancy and Brad Cooper married quickly in two thousand after Brad accepted a job with Cisco Systems in North Carolina. The sudden moved to the US, combined with the loss of their support network, put an immediate strain on the relationship. Nancy nearly left Brad early in the marriage for another man, but by the time their first daughter, Bella, was born in two thousand and four, she had begun to settle into life in Carrie, North Carolina, building a strong circle of friends. Their second daughter, Katie, was born in two thousand and six. Brad, a telec communications engineer, traveled frequently for work and was often emotionally and physically unavailable. Tensions in the marriage grew, with Brad becoming increasingly controlling, removing Nancy's name from their joint accounts, taking away her credit cards, and giving her a three hundred dollars weekly cash allowance, which he claimed was necessary due to her shopaholic tendencies. They had decided to divorce, with Brad initially saying Nancy and the girls could move to Canada. But once he saw the separation agreement and the steep child support he would be required to pay, he changed course. On the morning of July twelve, two thousand and eight, just hours after the couple attended a neighborhood barbecue, Nancy was reported missing by a friend, not Brad.

5:42 He had said that she went for a run and never returned. Her sudden disappearance alarmed her tight knit friend group, and suspicion fell on Brad almost immediately. By the time Nancy's body was found two days later in a muddy drainage ditch three miles from their home, investigators were already narrowing their focus on her husband. When we left off. Emergency custody of Bella and Katie had been awarded to her family, but Brad remained a free man due to the lack of evidence linking him to Nancy's murder. Would you like to add anything to that? No, I think that was pretty pretty thorough, okay. In the days following the discovery of Nancy's body, the police chief asked the community to take down the missing person's posters and place them with white ribbons as a tribute to Nancy. At a subsequent press conference, Her family members stepped up to the microphone one by one, each sharing heartfelt memories and expressing how deeply they loved and missed Nancy. They were a tight knit, devoted family who made time together a priority, spending a week together every Christmas and taking an annual vacation together. Just five days before Nancy's death, they had returned from a week long trip to Hiltonhead Island without Brad, a memory that now brought them comfort and gratitude. They spoke lovingly of Nancy's warmth, kindness, sharp sense of humor, and generous spirit. The family strength, resilience and commitment to caring for Nancy's daughters would have made her proud. Meanwhile, Brad and his attorneys held a press conference too. They reminded the media that Brad hadn't been named as a suspect and had cooperated with the police.

7:15 I'm not so sure how much he really was cooperating, because remember he never went in for a formal statement. He was questioned at his house a few times, but he never went down to the police station. Seth Blum, one of the attorneys, said, quote, I speak to you today as a result of the wild speculation that has been internationally reported surrounding the death of Brad's wife, Nancy. The bizarre and unsupportive theories that have been floating around television and the Internet have made it impossible for us to sit quietly and to say nothing. Brad Cooper is a private man. He's not accustomed to the hot glare of the media spotlight. He never dreamed that he would see his face splashed across television news shows or his name in the headlines, especially not under these terrible circumstances.

8:02 Brad Cooper is also a man in mourning. He's lost his wife. He is grieving. Mister Cooper wishes to mourn privately. He does not want to do it at press conferences. He does not wish to do it for reporters. He does not wish to mourn in the public eye. Brad's attorneys took an unusual approach and their effort to shape public opinion. On their law firm's website. They created a dedicated section for his case, sharing documents, surveillance camera footage, and commentary. One statement rad quote. We hope Brad will be afforded the same dignity and presumption of innocence that each of us would demand for ourselves. We pray that the distorted focus on Brad Cooper will not allow the guilty to escape detection.

8:47 That is a pretty novel approach. I haven't heard of that before. It kind of screams like being defensive though. It just seems like it just feels like they're on the defensive, which I guess they are. I think that can get you in trouble with a judge too, though. Like sharing evidence before the trial, the site included a detailed timeline of events and security footage showing Brad making two trips to the grocery store before seven am on July twelfth, in response to a rumor that Brad had purchased bleach to clean up after killing Nancy. The footage showed clearly that he only bought milk and laundry detergent at two separate times, six twenty five and six forty four am. Another section of the website appeared aimed at discrediting Nancy's close knit circle of friends, referring to them dismissively as the Carrie Click. On Saturday, July nineteenth, hundreds gathered at the cuckabooth Amphitheater, a place Nancy loved, for a memorial in her honor. The Rents family, still staying at a hotel, planned to attend with Bella and Katie, but Bella didn't know that her mother was gone yet.

9:52 Katie was too young to understand. The family had consulted a child psychologist about how to best break the news. The plan was for Brad to come to the hotel so they could tell Bella together. Instead, Brad took the girl swimming, leaving them little time before the memorial. That responsibility ultimately fell to Nancy's mother, Donna. In the car on the way to the service, Donna gently told Bella, Mommy was lost and they couldn't find her. When they found Mommy, the doctors couldn't help her. Mommy has died. Mommy is with the angels. Bella, who was about four and a half, seemed to understand. She cried softly and repeated, Mommy is not coming back. Donna held her close and said, no, but we're all here. We all love you and we're going to take care of you.

10:40 That's so hard because there's no way a child that young is going to be able to understand right It happened right. The memorial was deeply emotional, with many of Nancy's friends speaking about her warmth, kindness, and joy. Brad Cooper was noticeably absent. A few days later, another memorial was held in Nancy's hometown of Edmonton. Friends and family created a moving photomontage set to music, capturing moments from Nancy's life. Hundreds of images were shared, but not a single one included Brad, so you can tell the family is starting to pull away from Brad. Yeah, did the investigators in this case have tunnel vision? Were there other leads that weren't followed up on? From pretty early on, it seemed like the police had their sights set on Brad Cooper and they weren't looking anywhere else. Once Nancy's body was found and the public started asking questions, investigators zeroed in on Brad. It's not entirely surprising statistically speaking, of course, when a woman is killed, the husband is most often responsible, but there's a difference between following a lead and getting stuck on one. Brad was definitely acting a little off, and there were things that raised eyebrows, like the cleaned out trunk of his BMW and the fact that only parts of the house had been freshly cleaned, but instead of asking why you're keeping an open mind, it seemed like investors took every odd detail as a confirmation that Brad was guilty. Brad said he cleaned the trunk because he spilled gasoline, but there was no lingering odor of gas.

12:08 Instead of investigating that further, the police just didn't buy it. And that group of tight knit friends Nancy had the so called carry click, had a lot to say about Brad. They described him as controlling and emotionally distant, and police seemed to take their word for it without much pushback, while their perspective definitely mattered. There's a difference between testimony and assumption. What's more troubling is the idea that other leads may have been ignored completely. If Nancy did go for a run that morning, did police thoroughly check the area or follow up with every possible witness, or were they already so focused on Brad that they pushed those avenues aside. Brad's defense team later argued that the case against him was more about fitting the facts into a theory than actually solving the crime, and it's hard not to wonder were investigators trying to figure out who killed Nancy or were they just trying to prove it was Brad.

12:59 Was Brad really abusive to Nancy, or was she just very vocal to her friends about every perceived slight and disagreement. I mention all of this because a lot of people think that Brad could possibly be innocent. Yeah. Well, it's definitely true that police do sometimes have tunnel vision, and that's not a good thing. But sometimes it's they have tunnel vision because it's kind. Of obvious that's where the evidence is pointing. Yeah, but I do agree like that his alibi that she went on a run and disappeared, should have been very thoroughly checked out, like I would think they would canvass the entire neighborhood everywhere that she potentially would have gone. I believe that they did. Yeah. Yeah, So in the morning of July twelfth, many people were out walking or jogging early to beat the rising summer heat. Despite the active neighborhood, no one initially came forward to see that they'd seen Nancy until Rosemary Zednik spoke up. She said that she'd tried contacting the Carrey Police department multiple times, but never received a follow up. Eventually, she gave a more an affidavit to Brad Cooper's attorneys, stating that she'd seen Nancy around seven to ten while out walking her dog. According to Rosemary, Nancy jogged past her, wearing an iPod and greeting her with a quick high.

14:12 At the time, Rosemary didn't recognize Nancy, but later, after seeing a missing person's fire, she realized that it had been Nancy. This reminds me a little bit of lazy Peters. I didn't say that. Yes, It just worries me because I think when a story like this comes out, people their memories are not always so good, and they want to be they want to have seen her, and so they're like, yeah, I did see her. I'm sure it was her. It's almost like you're a police officer, I know, with the Carrie Police Department, because I think that's what they said. I mean, yeah. Brad filed several affidavits with the court in an attempt to undo the damage caused by the sworn statements from Nancy's friends. He denied all the allegations against him, he had an answer for everything. In response to the claim that he was financially abusive to Nancy.

14:57 Brad said that after paying the bills, he gave Nancy eighty percent of whatever remained. According to his affidavit, this came out to roughly three hundred dollars a week. He said that Nancy often told him it wasn't enough, and that he frequently tried to supplement the amount when he could. They were deeply in debt and he was trying to pull them out and live within their means. And we talked about it on Part one. Three hundred dollars a week, which in today's dollars I think you said was four hundred and fifty dollars a week. It's not a small amount when it comes to buying groceries and kind of daily household expenditures. Right. I think back to Josh Powell, Josh and Susan Powell. He was severely financially abusive to his wife and like to a much greater extent. Right. But like we said in Part one, I think it's more the idea of taking a grown up credit cards and paying account from them.

15:48 That is definitely yeah, that is overly controlling. Yes, Brad disputed that he ever took Nancy's phone away and produced phone records that showed that Nancy had made three four hundred and fifty six cell phone calls between January and June of two thousand and eight. That's about twenty calls a day. That's so many calls is a lot. She had a lot of French. She was very popular. He claimed it was Nancy's lavish spending that caused them to be forty five thousand dollars in debt and required him to take out an eighty thousand dollars home equity loan. Brad said in his affidavit quote, Nancy liked to buy eight thousand dollars paintings, designer clothing, Tiffany jewelry status was important to Nancy, and I indulged her too much.

16:29 I think that he is exaggerating greatly. I think that Nancy liked nice things, but I don't think that she was a shopaholic. I think when you're young and you have two young kids, there's a lot of you know, needs and right once and yeah, It's not like she went out every week and was like, you know, I'm gonna buy this ten thousand dollars painting. Yeah, it happened once. He pointed to a fully loaded BMW that she had wanted that he had purchased. He cited a three thousand dollar necklace that he had bought her for Christmas as well. He broke down there two thousand and seven spending on their American Express card. Nancy spent twenty seven thousand dollars and he spent seventeen thousand dollars. He made about sixty five thousand dollars a year, which is about one hundred thousand in today's dollars. One hundred thousand dollars a year in today's dollars. That seems remarkably low for when we talked about in part one. He has an very very specialized skill set in telecommunications and voiceover IP or voice, so it seems, Yeah, that seems really low to me.

17:30 Yeah, their budget was tight and being forty thousand dollars in debt, like you have to tighten things up where that debt is just going to keep snowballing. Yeah, for sure. Brad admitted to only one affair, a one night stand with Heather Mature. Along with his affidavit, he sent numerous pictures of himself as a doting father dressed up for Halloween, swimming, reading and holding them lovingly as babies. To quote Amy Lamb, the author of Love Lies, A True Story of Marriage and Murder in the Suburbs quote, the pictures were so normal, so mundane. It seemed that either this man was being set up or he was a master of deception. Brad's parents and brother submitted affidavits in support of his effort to retain custody of Bella and Katie. Two of the girl's preschool teachers and five of Brad's friends also provided statements on his behalf. One friend submitted affidavits for both Brad and the Rents family.

18:24 The affidavits didn't say anything negative about Nancy, just that Brad was a loving, capable father. On July twenty fifth, nearly two weeks after Nancy's murder, the emergency custody agreement expired, prompting a court hearing. That same day, Nancy's sister and brother in law, Christa and Jim Lister, filed a motion requesting that Brad undergo a psychological evaluation, expressing concern that he was unfit to parent. Brad was hesitant to testify under oath, so. This case is very similar to the Michelle and Jason Young case that we did a few weeks ago. And remember that Jason he relinquished custody of his daughters rather than testify under oaths. Right, but at least Brad here is, you know, willing to testify.

19:10 His reluctance led the judge to extend temporary custody to the Rentz family until a full hearing could be held in October. In the meantime, Brad was permitted to call his daughters four times a week and have supervised visits twice a month, limited to four hours each weekend. These calls, I guess were a nightmare for Christa and Jim to try to harness the kids and say hey, let's have a call with Daddy, and yeah, they had no interest in it. You know, Katie is just two and Bellows four, and they just really hated having to talk to Brad over the phone. And Brad was really you know, heard because he wanted to talk to his girls and they were very far away. So it was it was a tough situation.

19:50 Yeah, that is a tough situation. His attorneys framed the custody decision as one that Brad accepted for the sake of his children, suggesting that he wanted to shield them from the media spotlight and believed that they were better off in Canada away from public scrutiny. In a statement released after the ruling, his legal team said quote, while he will miss the daily joys of fatherhood, he fully intends to remain a vital force in his children's lives. Though it is painful to contemplate any additional day without his girls, mister Cooper accepts this as a heartrending but necessary step toward achieving justice. I'm surprised that the judge allowed Christa, the rent's family to take the girls to Canada, because it's twelve hours from Toronto to carry North Carolina. Yeah.

20:35 I'm surprised at that too. I mean, I know he's under suspicion and it maybe wasn't a good parent or a good fit for him to have custody, But I would think that they would take into consideration than arrested. Yeah. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't want to to seem like I'm empathetic towards Brat. It just was a surprise. It is surprising. Yeah, we'll be back after a break. After Nancy's death, both girls, especially four year old Bella, struggled with the overwhelming loss. Ellie began having accidents and became emotionally fragile, prone to sudden tears and intense tantrums.

21:17 Her grandparents arranged for her to see a grief counselor, but nothing could soothe the pain of losing her mother. It was heartbreaking to witness. When they gently reminded her that her mommy was now with the angels, Bella looked at the sky and cried, Mommy, where are you? I need you. She carried a photo of Nancy everywhere she went. Bella kept a special box filled with little treasures and trinkets that reminded her of her mom. Sweet, four year old sized keepsakes she either clung to or hoped to show Nancy. One day, That simple ritual seemed to give her a bit of comfort. So heartbreaking it is. Katie, being younger, couldn't fully express what she was feeling, but the signs of her grief were clear. Her sleep became disordered and her speech was noticeably delayed. Donna and Gary Wrenz adored their granddaughters, but felt they were too old to take on the demands of full time parenting. Among Nancy's siblings, all were happily married, and two of the couples had one child each. Christa and Nancy's twin had been very close to Bella and Katie. She called them every morning on the way to school. The girls called her Christamum, and because she looked so much like Nancy, her present was a comfort to them after their mother was gone. Christa had undergone a hysterectomy and couldn't conceive naturally, but she shared a deep bond with her nieces, who adored her in return. When Nancy was still alive, the sisters had even discussed the possibility of Nancy asked acting as a surrogate for Christa after her death. The Rent's family believed that Christa and her husband Jim were the best choice to raise Bella and Katie. The only complication

22:47 was that they lived in Toronto, while the rest of the family remained in Edmonton, over two thousand miles away. Christa said quote, I always wanted kids to get them this way. No, but the cool thing is that they've got my DNA. Nan and I shared that it's the closest thing to having kids for me. Krista and Jim embraced parenting their nieces despite the challenges they faced. Krista left her career as an interior designer to care for Bella and Katy full time. Both girls struggled with separation, anxiety, and sleep issues, an understandable response to the trauma that they had endured, but with patience, structure, and unconditional support, they began to heal. Krista and Jim enrolled them in ballet and gymnastics, and in their bedroom they displayed family photos, including pictures of both Nancy and Brad. The girl psychologist was encouraged by their progress. In a deposition during the custody proceedings, she praised the family's efforts, saying, quote, this is a remarkable family who truly thinks and acts whatever way is required to serve the best interest of these children.

23:52 I have never had reason to question their integrity or their commitment to provide Bella and Katy with a happy, healthy life, one that, though without out their mother, keeps Nancy Cooper's presence very much alive for them. Her influence, character and strength remade an integral part of their lives. On August sixth, two thousand and eight, a new sworn affidavit was submitted to the court, this time by Carrie Clark, the friend that Brad claimed Nancy had gone running with on the morning of July twelfth. The statement was just one sentence, but it dramatically shifted the course of the investigation and public perception of Brad Cooper. Quote. I had no plans to run with Nancy Cooper on Saturday, July twelfth, two thousand and eight, and I never ran with Nancy Cooper on July twelfth, two thousand and eight. While the affidavit didn't prove that Nancy hadn't gone for our run that day, it casts serious doubt on Brad's version of events, and it didn't look good for him.

24:49 No, it doesn't look good for him. I don't know why Brad would say that. I know that seems really such an. Easy thing to check up on. Yeah. With the custody issue not resolved and Brad not arrested, he sat for a comprehensive psychological evaluation in August, an eight hour test that costs about twelve thousand dollars. Ultimately, the results found him to be a normal, nonviolent person with an anger problem that he mostly kept under control, especially in public. That is my nightmare, be psychologically festive. They would probably just commit me right then in there. Do you think you would? How would you fare?

25:29 I have no idea. I don't really want to know either. I guess think you're pretty unflappable. Brad sat for a deposition in October two thousand and eight again for the custody battle. He seemed calm and unflappable, because that's a favorite word, I guess. So some things that were memorable were Brad not recalling the color of the dress Nancy had worn the night of the party, and not remembering if he'd washed it. Do you think that you can recall what I wore yesterday? No, I definitely that part doesn't seem at all suspicious to me, because yeah, there's I wouldn't remember that either, But not remembering if he'd washed it? Did he he didn't normally do the laundry. I'm guessing it. Didn't normally do laundry, but if you remember when he went to the grocery store, he did purchase laundry detergent, So either he or Nancy was doing laundry that morning.

26:14 But typically no, I don't believe he did it. He claimed to never have driven by fielding drive in the new subdivision where Nancy's body was found. Quote, no, I haven't driven past it. I have no interest in driving past it. When asked about his past relationships, he named his two ex fiancees, Taylene Lyon and Jennifer Wilson. He said there was no history of violence, but neither woman could be found to corroborate this claim. We'll come back to this in a few minutes after the deposition was made public, Detective Greg Daniels, who was leading the investigation, made a statement, quote, Bradley Cooper has not fully cooperated with her investigation into the murder of Nancy Cooper and has not been willing to come to the police department to assist in the vastigation and provide information, despite formal requests from the Carrey Police Department that he do so.

27:06 The testimony given under oath by Bradley Cooper during his video deposition is inconsistent with the statements made by Bradley Cooper to the Carrie Police Department at his residence on July twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth, two thousand and eight. Jennifer Windsor, who had previously been referred to in legal documents as Jennifer Wilson, believed Brad Cooper intentionally mistated her name to make her harder to find. After moving from Alberta to Hawaii, she was contacted by a friend back in Canada who told her that her name had come up in Brad's deposition. In response, Jennifer voluntarily offered to provide a statement. In her deposition, she described Brad as emotionally abusive throughout their relationship. Quote, he constantly belittled me in front of others. He frequently criticized my weight and appearance, even telling people I look pregnant when I I wasn't. Jennifer said that she had never before and never since, been in a relationship where she was treated so poorly. She described Brad as emotionally detached and mentally cruel. After they broke up, she asked him to move out, and he simply relocated to another apartment in the same building. A neighbor warren Jennifer that Brad had been entering her apartment while she was away.

28:23 Quote by the end of our relationship, I feared for my physical safety. His behavior became increasingly disturbing, so much though, that I broke my lease and moved out to avoid living in the same building as him. Wow, that's pretty damning as well. Did they ever find the other ex fiance? Not that I know of. On October sixteenth, another custody hearing was held to determine if Bella and Katie would remain in Canada or rejoin Brad in North Carolina. I think during this time Brad had only seen the girls twice. He had to have supervised custody. He had to go I'm sorry, supervised visitation. He had to go to a a certain building and people had to watch him with the girls, and he could only see them for four hours at a time.

29:06 Okay. Nancy's family and friends again all testified, but Brad did not. A new witness at this hearing was doctor James Hilkey, the psychologist who had evaluated Brad. He said Brad was very intelligent, but not good at reading social cues and sometimes came off as arrogant and detached. He said, quote, I think mister Cooper is a very complex man. He is in a very complex situation, which makes the evaluation challenging mister Cooper presents as someone who is somewhat angry and somewhat anxious. He couldn't rule out that Brad was being deceptive. Rosemary Zednik testified with certainty that the woman she saw running on July twelfth was Nancy Cooper. However, her eagerness to be involved raised some eyebrows. She had reached out to police nine times, and, frustrated by the lack of response, eventually contacted Brad's defense team, who were eager to hear what she had to say. At that point, she was the only person besides Brad who claimed to have seen Nancy alive that morning. At the end of the eight hour hearing, the judge asked for patients as she thought about it. Four days later, she ruled that Bella and Katie could remain in Canada with Christa and her husband, Jim.

30:17 I'm so glad that this judge had that foresight to leave them in Canada because again, it reminds me of other cases that we've had, like Susan and Josh Powell, where the children weren't safe with their father. Yeah, and I think the children's safety is the most important thing. Yeah, it just seems like the best situation all around for the children at this point. On Monday, October twenty seventh, two thousand and eight, a grand jury in Wake County convened to review the evidence against Brad Cooper. By the end of the day, he was arrested and charged with the first degree murder of his wife, Nancy. Neighbors watched from their doorsteps as Brad was led out of his home in handcuffs. One even stood in the street and cheered and applauded. That same day, Brad appeared in court, his face expressionless as the judge ordered him held without bond.

31:04 His legal team told the court that Brad had exhausted his financial resources and requested a public defender. The judge agreed to let his attorney, Howard Kurtz stay on the case, with the state covering the cost. In a somewhat unexpected show of support, Brad's mother, Carol Cooper, attended the hearing. She stood by her son, but declined to speak with reporters. Nancy's family was elated, mostly because Bella and Katie were now safe and their custody would no longer be in question. Christa said, quote huge weight lifted. I was elated. Oh man, we were so happy. We felt like we won. It was good closure. Now we have the kids, We're good.

31:45 I felt that all of my suspicions were correct and that I was finally allowed to grieve and say, Okay, now I know that what I was feeling was right. It was great. It was so good. In early December, at a rule twenty four hearing, the DA announced the state would not be seeking the death penalty. The judge set bail at two million dollars. Which he was not able to provide, and stayed in jail. The psychologist advised Christa and Jim that the girls would only bring up things they were ready to face. In February two thousand and nine, a girl at Bella's school drew a picture of a woman in a pool of blood and said, this is Bella's mama. Oh this makes me so mad. Yeah, that's really awful, another parent told Christa, who immediately went to the school to confirm the story. The psychologist urged her to be honest with Bella, but keep her answers simple and age appropriate. One evening, sitting on the bathroom floor, Bella said, matter of factly, quote I know, Mama, Nancy didn't get hurt running. She was too strong. It had to be a bear or a man. Christa gently replied, it wasn't a bear. You're right, she was killed. Bella looked her straight in the eye. Do you know who Christa's heart pounded? Quote? No, But the police have a suspect and one day there will be a trial. They're working very hard to find out who did this. That's a really delicate conversation to have to have.

33:07 Yeah, and the bear man thing too, is very astute for five year old. As much as she wanted to tell Bella everything, Christa knew she had to wait until Brad was convicted. In May two thousand and nine, Brad signed away his parental rights to his children, giving Christa and Jim permanent custody, but he was still hoping to win them back. When he was exonerated, Brad's attorneys subpoenaed Nancy's medical records and found she had an STD screening in April two thousand and eight. They used this to accuse her of having multiple affairs. It's unclear why she had the test, but could just as easily have been because she was protecting herself from Brad's extramarital affairs. Brad wanted the trial moved, thinking a fair trial would be impossible in Wake County.

33:53 But that did not happen. Brad Cooper's trial for the first degree murder of his wife began nearly three years after her death in March twenty eleven. Brad's parents flew in for the trial to support their son, keeping to themselves and not talking to the media. During opening arguments, Assistant da Amy Fitzhugh accused Brad of intercepting and reading Nancy's emails and financial control. She said that Brad had been uncooperative with police and that his story had changed over time. She closed with quote, you will be convinced that Nancy Brenz Cooper never went for a run on July twelve, two thousand and eight. You will be convinced that Bradley Graham Cooper killed his wife and his guilty of first degree murder. The prosecution's theory was that Brad strangled Nancy on the night of July twelfth when she came home, and then dumped her body at the construction site between the grocery store runs. The next morning. Howard Kurtzy, speaking for Brad's defense, spoke for more than two hours, dropping new evidence as he went. He claimed that sixteen people had seen Nancy out jogging on Saturday, July twelfth, but police had never followed up with any of them, accusing the Carey Police Department of tunnel vision ignoring any evidence that didn't fit into their narrative that Bread had killed Nancy. Kurtz accused Nancy of quote airing the couple's dirty laundry and embellishing as only she could. He also accused Nancy of having an affair with a neighbor, John Pearson, who had admitted to having sex with Nancy after a

35:24 Halloween party while Brad was out of town. Katy was born eight months and twenty four days later. Defense attorneys had attempted to get a DNA test done, but they were never able to do so. They were trying to lay groundwork that Pearson had motive. Pearson would say under oath later that he didn't think Katy was his child, but he'd also wondered. He said that the sexual encounter with Nancy ended abruptly when they'd realized it was a mistake, and they'd agreed to never talk about it again. At the time, Nancy had been trying actively to get pregnant and was undergoing fertility treatments. And for what it's worth, John Pearson did have an alibi for July twelfth, and he was with his children while his ex wife was working.

36:09 Interesting. Brad's demeanor during the trial appeared odd to some people. He was seen smiling and joking with his attorneys. One point the prosecution wanted to drive home was that Nancy had been murdered the night before her disappearance when she returned from the party. They contended that the phone call that Brad had received asking him to return to the store was an automated phone call that he'd set up using software from his job. Oh interesting, Does that make sense to you? I mean, I don't know how easy that would be to do, but it does make sense that that could be a possibility. Yes, I've heard that. People say that that's actually not that hard to do. Yeah. A CSI agent testified that there was evidence of blood found under Nancy's fingernails, but it wasn't able to be identified due to her body being exposed to the elements for so long. A detective testified that they'd never found the pair of sneakers that Brad was wearing during his first grocery store run. During the second run, he was wearing sandals or flip flops. A geologist analyzed the soil in a different pair of brad sneakers and said that it contained micah, a mineral found in the soil where Nancy was found, which was the only forensic evidence linking him to Nancy's murder, and that was pretty weak and.

37:23 Feels micah is probably found in a lot of places, right yeah. A voice technology expert testify that on the morning of July twelfth, Brad made several brief calls to check his voicemail at six thirty seven, six forty five, and six point fifty three. At seven twenty six am, he called Cisco's voicemail system in Ireland and left a three second message that was routed to his North Carolina office. The message simply said testing one two three. Then at seven point fifty six, he dialed into Cisco's conference call system based in San Jose, California. His testimony was very technical, but in essence he acknowledged that it was possible to remotely place a call to his cell phone and make it look like it had originated from his home phone.

38:10 To make this special phone call, Brad would need a router, this very specific router, and it was available at his Cisco office. If you worked in the Cisco office, you were welcome to take any equipment home with you. And it was missing from the office. But it also was not present in the Cooper's home either. And I also heard something that if you were using this technology, the phone call can only be twenty three seconds long, and the phone call Brad made was thirty six seconds or something like that. Okay, So Brad didn't testify, but his seven hour deposition was played in court. I watched parts of the deposition an old boy. It was dry. Yeah, it was tough to get through. Yeah. An FBI agent confirmed that Brad had intercepted emails from Nancy's account, including messages from her attorney, friend's family, and an old boy.

39:00 Emails between Brad and a frenchwoman were also found. Brad's NBA graduating class took a trip to Paris, where he met a woman that classmates recall him spending a lot of time with Nancy's laptop, which was kept in the kitchen had been used on the morning of her disappearance, as well as the following morning. Brad had looked up news articles related to Nancy's disappearance and gone to the website web Sluice. But on Brad's computer, a search that he'd done on the afternoon of July eleventh, the day before Nancy disappeared, changed everything. He viewed and zoomed in on a satellite aerial view of a fielding drive in Carrie, North Carolina on Google Maps, the exact location where Nancy's body was found.

39:45 Oh boy. The courtroom sat in stunned silence as the prosecutor dropped the bombshell. The defense didn't have much legroom, but pointed out no cookies from Google Maps were on Brad's computer. Bought cookies are super easy to delete. They all also suggested that someone could have planted the evidence or hacked into his computer. Also bookmarked on his computer was a website A practical Guide to Suicide We'll be back after a break. On Tuesday, April nineteenth, the defense began their case. They knew they needed to clean up the Google Map search of Fielding drive, the most damning evidence against Brad. They claimed that his laptop had not been powered down when seized by police, and for those twenty seven hours it was vulnerable to hacking and other files could have been tampered with as well. In fact, six hundred and ninety two files were found to have been modified.

40:45 Okay, this is a question for you because I am not a computer person. But files are constantly being updated on your computer, whether you're doing the updating or not. Correct it depends on what kind of files. It's hard to say six hundred and ninety two generic files, but yeah, definitely things are changing on your computer all the time, whether you're doing anything or not. Does that seem like an unusually high amount though not not really necessarily right. Yeah, it's hard to say without more information, but it seems like it's certainly possible that that could be the case. The police could have framed him. Rosemary' zednik and a few others testified about seeing women jogging that looked like Nancy.

41:26 And allegedly there was this mysterious van. There's always a mysterious vand I say, and there were two Hispanic men in the van, so you know they were up to no good. Allegedly, several police officers disputed Rosemary's claim and remembered talking to her, but found her to be not credible. One thing that police pointed to was that Rosemary was insistent that the person that the person she saw jogging had an iPod, and Nancy never ran with an iPod. Oh. Interesting surveillance video from Maylie of Nancy, Bella, and Katie at the grocery store resurfaced. It was likely after they had left the pool after spending the day with friends.

42:08 As Nancy walked out of the store, it was clear that she hadn't been wearing the diamond pendant that her friends had testified. She never took off. And this is another bombshell. Detective Jim Young accidentally deleted the contents of Nancy's BlackBerry. Was it an accident? Could there have been evidence of an affair or other exculpatory evidence. Okay, this is another question for you because I know it was one hundred years ago, but you owned a BlackBerry and I had heard that they are very hard to delete. I have no idea, I have no recollection of that. That seems like that would be a pretty big mistake, But I don't know how easy your heart it would be to do that. But then in the police department's defense, they also said, well, we have that data from the phone company, so so.

42:53 It didn't really matter if it was deleted because they could get the data. End. That's what they were saying. But who knows, yeh. On April twenty eighth, the jury sent the judge the following note, quote, please encourage the attorneys to use time more wisely. We are hoping to finish this soon. Please ask them to have their witnesses ready to go. We want our lives back. That's really wild. Isn't that funny. I've never heard of a jury doing it before, and I love them for it. I mean, the trial had gone on for about two months, and I don't believe anyone thought it was going to last as long as it did. These jurors were just like, they're frustrate. I think there was a lot of you know, I went through it really quickly, relatively quickly, but I think there was a lot of technical testimony.

43:37 Yeah that's enough. Yeah. The defense rested the next day. The judge denied their request to dismiss the case. On Tuesday, May third, the eight week trial entered its last phase after closing arguments. The jury was made up of ten women and two men. That's a very woman heavy jury, right. Yeah, it is. On the second day, after five hours, they requested to see several pieces of evidence, including photographs of Nancy's body from behind, three photographs taken by police of the Cooper's bedroom, cell phone records from both of the Cooper's phones, customer records from two grocery stores, and the videotape deposition of Brad Cooper from October two thousand and eight. This indicated to everyone waiting that they were struggling to come to a consensus. But on the third day, after about nine hours of deliberation, they reached a verdict. What do you think their.

44:30 Verdict was, I am going to go with guilty. Guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Brad sat emotionless, as did his parents behind him. On the other side of the courtroom. The Rent's family wept and held each other. The jury members wiped tears from their faces as they watched the emotional celebration. Judge Paul Gessner spoke directly to the jury. He implored them not to second guess their verdict or questioned the process based on what they heard in the media in the days and weeks to come. Quote and certainly don't concern yourself with the opinions of the bloggers and the comments to the news stories. You heard all this evidence. You had the opportunity to judge the credibility of each witness firsthand. Your opinion is the only opinion that counts. The anonymous, uninformed opinions of others are completely irrelevant.

45:23 Though that was a very good statement, because it's true. I think we always second guess a verdict of jury's opinion. But they sat through eight weeks of testimony. An appeal was immediately filed. After the verdict, Donna and Gary approached Terry and Carrol Cooper, Brad's parents to offer their condolences. The Cooper's reserved and quiet left without responding to the Rence's kind gesture. Before leaving, Donna generously told Carol to reach out so they could arrange a visit for Bella and Katie. That is really nice that they did that. I know. Gary and Donna addressed the media outside these quote, the relief is palpable. Today. We feel that the love and nurturing and care that we've given Bella and Katie has been rewarded, and we're going to be blessed with being able to continue the care for those wonderful children. The tragedy is that you have two young lives that were wasted, Nancy who was no longer with us, and Brad who now faces an elongated period of incarcederation. And I just feel sad for both of those. There's no particular joy in either of those for us, Donna said, quote, I just felt her presence. I was happy that this day finally came. I am happy for the little girls and happy for our family. Gary continued, We as a family, I think a long time ago made up our mind that we would not deal with ourselves as victims, but rather deal with ourselves as survivors. We're going to go home and pick up our lives. It's been a long run for us.

46:53 Really do seem like a lovely family. Yeah, they really do. Do you have reasonable doubt as to Brad's guilt. Based on what I've I've heard so far, I would say no, I don't. Okay, let's go over the evidence one more time. First, we'll go with the exculpatory evidence. There is a lack of physical evidence linking Brad to the crime scene. Right, but Nancy was strangled, and I think when that happens, there is little evidence that's left behind. Right, There's no blood, there was no sign of a struggle in the home, although Brad did have time to clean up. Right. Yeah, the GPS map controversy. The defense argued that the laptop used to make this search had been in police custody and the file could have been altered or planted.

47:35 That seems like a real long shot to me. Will be the sheriff or whoever said we don't know how to do that? I know they actually they accidentally deleted a BlackBerry. I don't get the sense that they're the most technically. Did they accidentally deleted the that's the accusation. Sure, But also if they were going to plant evidence, wouldn't they plant more damning evidence than just you know, this file that. Was pretty damning. But yeah, I would think they would do other things. Yeah, police were accused of tunnel vision not following up on other potential leads. But the only other lead was really there were a few people that thought that they could have seen Nancy. But again, like you pointed out, it's like Lacy Peterson, Nancy was well known in the community, and no one that knew Nancy saw Nancy. People that didn't know Nancy said, well, I saw a woman that looked like Nancy.

48:24 Yeah, and it's sound like the other possible suspect, the guy that she apparently had a fling with, he had an alibi as well, right, and they checked that out, so it's not like they ignored it. Yeah, and I forgot to mention it. But he had the morning of July twelfth, he was with his children, but the night before he was with the woman that Brad had the affair with, Heather Mature. So John Pearson that was his name, right, the guy that Nancy had a fling with allegedly, Yeah, he was with Heather. He was with Heather in a romantic way or just they happened. To Oh I think it was a well romantic way. Yeah. Wow. The town of Carrie, North Carolina, is just a hotbed of stuff going.

49:07 On, right exactly, And you could question what the motive was. It seems pretty clear, but Brad really had no history of physical violence. But we've seen that before too in short, the reasonable doubt arose from the lack of direct evidence, questionable digital evidence, potential police misconduct, and plausible alternative explanations. Even though Brad was convicted in twenty eleven, these lingering doubts are part of why some still believe that he may have been wrongfully convicted. This case is very similar to the case I am currently working out that we are going to record after we get back from vacation. But to me, you know, the bottom line is you can have a circumstantial case that doesn't have direct forensic evidence tying someone to the crime scene or the victim and still have a strong case.

49:56 And to me, this still seems like a strong case. But I know you're going to go over. Let's go over the inculpatory evidence real quick. So remember that Nancy's blood alcohol level was point zero six, which to me seems like it's too high for her to wake them and say, yeah, I'm going to go for a run today. And Brad did lie about her going for a run with her friend. The cleaning of his trunk and certain areas of the house was a little suspicious. Yeah, her sports prop pulled up over her breast to me, seemed like he was trying to dress her and just kind of gave up. Right, He was very controlling in a lot of ways. He washed Nancy's dress. The Google map search, if you're to believe that he actually did it Google map search, to me, is a little suspect because he only did it for like forty five seconds.

50:43 How long would you need to do a search like that, really? I mean, yeah, maybe I would think it would take a few minutes to zero in on the area. Yeah, maybe Brad didn't really cooperate with the investigation. And Nancy's shoes were the house where she had two pairs of shoes. The case, in my opinion, hate hinges on whether or not Nancy went for a run, and again, in my opinion, I don't think that she went for a run. Again, to me, the most damning pieces of evidence are her blood alcohol level and the two pairs of shoes that were at her house. Well and the fact that Brad said she went for a run with Carrie and Carrie said no, I never went for a run.

51:28 Like they maybe could have gotten their wires crossed. I mean, they weren't getting a lawng grade. It's not they had you know, these huge conversations every morning. Well, tell me what you have planned for today, you know, probably terse you know, right on the knee to. Know basis, Yeah, I suppose so. Brad's appeal argued that he had not received a fair trial, primarily because the judge excluded key defense witnesses who could have testified about the possibility that his laptop had been tampered with. The defense suggested that the incriminated Google searches could have been planted, potentially by law enforcement, the FBI, or even a former vindictive lover. Expert witness testimony supporting this theory was not permitted by the judge during the trial.

52:09 In April twenty thirteen, oral arguments were heard by a three judge panel to grant Brad Cooper a new trial. Five months later, the appellate court released their ruling. Their decision read quote. The Google Maps files recovered from the defendant's laptop were perhaps the most important evidence admitted in this trial. We hold that the court abused its discretion in excluding Ward from testifying. That's the person who is going to testify, relying on the state's own evidence to his opinion that the Google Maps files recovered from the defendant's laptop had been tampered with. By unanimous decision, his conviction was overturned and Brad was granted a new trial based on Judge Guestner's limiting expert testimony in the first trial.

52:54 Oh well, as much as I believe that Brad is guilty, I can't disagree with that. Like if he didn't allow an expert witness to refute the most important evidence in the trial, that seems wrong. I agree completely. You know when an expert witness will get on the stand sometimes and they'll go over their resume and then the judge can decide whether they're an expert or not. In this case, the judge didn't allow that. On January thirtieth, twenty fourteen, five and a half years after Nancy's murder, Brad once again appeared in a Wake County courtroom at a pre trial hearing, looking softer, grayer and balding. On September eighth, as a new trial was set to begin, Brad Cooper pleaded guilty to second to murder.

53:36 What he would serve twelve to fifteen years, including time served, and give up parental rights to his honors permanently. I am shocked. Yeah, the Rentz family was okay with the plea deal if it meant that Brad would accept responsibility and Bella and Katie could finally be legally adopted by Krista and Jim. Judge Gessner asked Brad, quote, do you personally plead guilty to the charge that I have doned? Brad replied yes, Did you in fact kill Nancy Cooper and dump her body on Fielding Drive? Brad paused yes, The judge said, in reference to Brad allowing his children to be adopted by Krista and Jim in return for a shorter sentence, It just bothers me that you have an individual who will apparently bargain away their rights as a parent. I find that repulsive.

54:24 That is pretty repulsive. I'm just glad that the girls could finally be adopted and be done with Brad and move on with their lives. Yeah. Absolutely. Nancy was a loving mother, daughter, sister, and twin. She was a runner and a coach. She loved to help others meet their fitness goals. She made friends wherever she went. Her superpower was her ability to make other people laugh, smile, and feel comfortable. Rest in Peace Nancy. After Nancy's death, many of her friends and family in Canada and the US began noticing butterflies. They were removed to start a foundation called a Butterfly Fund, helping other women in dangerous or volatile marria. They organized a gala and a run in Nancy's honor in hopes of saving other women. The fund is no longer active. There is another organization in the community called Interact of Wake County. We will donate to in honor of Michelle Young and Nancy Cooper. In November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's death, Brad Cooper was released from Mountain View Correctional Facility in Spruce Behind, North Carolina. He was deported back to Canada. Wow, not shocking.

55:30 I'm going to end with the words of Amanda Lamb, who wrote my main source for this case, Love Lies, a true story of marriage and murder in the suburbs. Happy was definitely not the word to describe the ending to this story. It's a cautionary tale, a tragic tale, a tale that leaves more questions than answers. It's a trail of broken hearts and a litany of secrets. Only two people know the truth. One is dead and the other won't gamble his silence for freedom. It is a really tragic tale, and I'm not so sure that justice was served in the case with the amount of time that he spent in prison. Twelve years. Yeah, it's really not enough. There are no winners when it comes to domestic violence. Even when a victim finds the strength to leave, the emotional and psychological scars remain, often lasting a lifetime, not just for them, but for their children as well. We need to do more to educate people about the warning signs early on, before control becomes abuse and love turns to fear. Too often, innocence is lost and childhoods are stolen in the silence. Awareness is the first step towards prevention.

56:31 Very well said, do. You believe that Brad is guilty? I do, yes, Yes. Do you think that he served enough time? No? Absolutely not. I mean that was the no, I mean yeah, that was the deal that he got though, right, it was he was released because he served the time that he agreed they both agreed to. Yeah, but not enough. What do you think was the motivation for the prosecution to make the deal? I mean, I kind of know Brad's motivation for taking the deal because he had been found guilty once before and he probably expected to be found guilty again. But why do you think the prosecution offered that. I think their primary objective was if he was willing to admit guilt and Bella and Katie would be able to be adopted and move on with their life. Yeah, that was their objective, right, and.

57:16 That makes sense. But I also have to wonder if they felt like their case wasn't as strong as it needed to be a lot of times when it was not a slam dunk. Yeah, so they were probably a little bit worried that they wouldn't win. I almost forgot. We have a clip of Krista talking about the girls. Do you want to play that real quick? They're doing good. They they know, they know what happened. But with Nancy Bella especially, and it destroyed her for many years and she's she's gotten over it, she's moved past thankfully. I've got amazing family to help and they got through it.

58:00 Does this mean now that their dads out of their lives forever? Yes, it's amazing. It's total relief. He doesn't deserve them, he doesn't deserve to know them. I'm going to get emotional talking about this, but there was a beauty to Christa ending up with her sister's kids when she couldn't have kids, and being her identical twin. I just thought that was, you know, as sad as it is, it's really lovely that they were raised by their aunts. It is a little bit of like poetic justice in some ways. Do we know? What do you know when that clip was from? It sounds like it was from.

58:42 I think it was from years ago. I did see pictures of the girls, and all I'm going to say is they're stunning, and they seem happy, healthy, and they both seem to be very athletic like their mom. Yeah, it's how old are they at this point? Their college age? It seemed like there was a lot of activity in the neighborhood that the Coopers lived in. What do you mean by activity. Since this case? And I don't know if it has anything to do with affairs, but I think at least two of the friends that Nancy had have divorced as well. It just seemed like there was a lot of affairs going on, a lot of people sleeping together. Yeah, it seems like that, and the fact that you pointed out the guy that Nancy apparently had a fling with was seeing the woman that Brad had a fling with too. It's just, yeah, it's a lot going on there.

59:28 Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm slamming my laptop shot and we are officially on vacation. You have another day at work, but. Yeah, pretty close. I am very excited about that. I am wondering how being a true crime podcaster has changed you. Do you look at people's relationships differently. I don't know if I look at people's relationships differently, but I do think about the possibilities of occurring, Yeah, in relationships more than I used to. I think I'm more aware of the potential of violence and things like that. Yeah, I agree, that's what I feel. The same way.

1:00:11 Like all these unassuming guys that just seem like normal guys that you work with or whatever. That they're capable of killing their wives is kind of shocking to me. Yeah, it really. It's not like it's common, but we make it seem like it's common because we tell a story every week. I mean, it's common enough. It's more common than it should be, for sure. But yeah, part of it is, I think because we talk about it so much, we're you know, it's like when you see a yellow car, then all of a sudden, you start seeing yellow cars everywhere. Right, Well, I hope we play the yellow car. Game, Banana. That's great. We used to do when our kids are little. Now it really anoys them, but once in a while, randomly when we're driving, Elsie Banana.

1:00:52 Yeah. Yeah. I think. The other thing for me is I have become a little desensitized to things that should really disturb me. They still disturb me, but I'm less inclined to. Get like humans are capable of really horrible behavior. Yeah, it really is. And there was I was looking at a there's a book. It's like I can'mer what it's called, but it's like the it's like the police Manual for homicide Investigation. It's like the most well respected manual. And I happened to download it because I wanted to look up at a couple of things about police procedure and things like that. And there are the most horrible photos in this book. And yeah, they disturbed me, but they didn't. It wasn't as disturbing as it should have been to me. And that bothered me actually, that I was like, oh, this should really be like I should be putting this book down and not looking at this because it was not good.

1:01:44 I still tried carefully. I don't like to see autopsy photos or crime scene photos. Yeah, I think they're still pretty disturbing to me. I'm a pretty humble person. But last night I had a personal win that I want to share with everyone. I had my three hundred Peloton hide. Wow. Three hundred that's really good. Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy. But it's not as impressive as it sounds, honestly, because a lot of times I'll do two rides and some of them are like five minute cool down rides. I think it's impressied. Yeah, I was really happy, and I beat my record by like sixteen points, which almost literally killed me. But I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. But if you're thinking about getting a peloton, this is not an ad I wish it were. But I've had a lot of fun with it.

1:02:26 Yeah, I have not a lot of fun with. It, but it's a great way to work out. I've not been quite as diligent as you. Even nowhere near as diligent. As but I think I'm about halfway, maybe not quite. Yeah, but you're you're yeah, Yeah, I'm trying. But I enjoy it. I really do like it. I just need to like make time for it. Yeah, if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask us. But yeah, that was I think. I am twenty six weeks in a row of working out three or more days, so that also is like kind of a big deal for me. Yeah, I'm using congratulations, thank you. I am also a humble person. I am the most humble person that you would probably have ever met. We all know that. I just want to ask, Well, it's funny because you'd like to tell us all how intelligent you are all the time. And that is a characteristic of a lot of men who murder. Is you know, men that think they're very smart and they can outsmart the police. And I know you well enough to know that you think about things like this all the time, and you were pretty sure that you could get away with the perfect murder.

1:03:28 I could totally I am joking. I know I'm not. That's not the case at all. I don't like to talk about how smart I am. You're the one who always brings. It up because I like to roast you and I try to keep you home. You certainly do. I'm sorry I forgot to mention this when we were talking about the case and we try to end on something that is not the case. But I did want to. I mentioned this my Amanda Lamb source, but there was another source that I read. I didn't read the whole thing. I couldn't get through much of it because it was so one sided. Framed and examination of the Nancy Cooper murder case by Lynn Blanchard. She also wrote a book about Michelle Young that was very similar. She defended Jason Young and in her book she also defends Brad Cooper.

1:04:15 So I think she must have lived in the area and she was just really consumed with these cases. But it was so one sided. It just kind of. Drives me crazy. Yeah, some people just want they just want to take a contrary view and be well contra I. Think she believes what she's saying, really, but. Yeah, just hard to imagine believing that. But well, thank you so much for listening. Yes, thank you very much. We appreciate each and every one of you. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social media and YouTube, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill. We have one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode until next time.

1:04:59 Don't Kill your Wife and Don't Kill Your Husband.

1:05:45 In November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's murder, Rad Cooper was released from Mountain Dew, Mountain yah it. That was good. That's funny.