Aug. 4, 2025

Nancy and Brad Cooper - Part 2

Nancy and Brad Cooper - Part 2
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon

In July 2008, in the quiet suburb of Cary, North Carolina, Nancy and Brad Cooper appeared to have it all: two beautiful daughters, a picture-perfect life, and a circle of close-knit friends. But behind closed doors, their marriage was unraveling. When Nancy vanished after a routine morning run, the investigation revealed cracks in their carefully constructed world—and left a trail of questions that still linger.

Support us on Patreon.

Today's snack: White Chocolate Chip Cherry Oatmeal Cookies

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.759
Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

2
00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.360
we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that.

3
00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:07.240
Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

4
00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:09.679
In some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

5
00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:28.399
Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how

6
00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:30.600
are you? I'm going shithouse? How are you going?

7
00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:36.359
That is your new favorite phrase, isn't it my new catchphrase?

8
00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:41.479
So we're leaving for vacation, even though we are already

9
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.000
back for vacation. If you're listening to this, but you

10
00:00:44.119 --> 00:00:46.359
had a great time, Yeah, you're tying up a lot

11
00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:48.439
of loose ends. So am I. Yeah, yeah, it's a

12
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:49.240
little stressful.

13
00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:51.600
It is a little bit, but I'm looking forward to vacation.

14
00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:52.759
Yeah, definitely.

15
00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.479
So last episode, you asked me where I was on

16
00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.679
the scale of wanting to kill your spouse, and I

17
00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.439
forgot to ask you. So I wanted to bring it

18
00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:04.359
up because I was. I started thinking about it. I

19
00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:06.640
was like, wow, I didn't ask, so I have no idea.

20
00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.400
Well, and you know that's why you're always on the bubble.

21
00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:13.000
That's why you're always in trouble because you forget that

22
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.519
I have feelings.

23
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:15.239
I know.

24
00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:21.400
You're always great, you're always at the below zero like

25
00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.879
negative to the you're safe, you're well meaning, like that's

26
00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:27.079
how little I want you to.

27
00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:28.599
D Okay, that's good, I'll take it.

28
00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.840
I'm still good on the marriage meter.

29
00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:33.799
Yes, nothing has changed since we spoke yesterday.

30
00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:36.599
Even if I was like, you know, a ninety nine

31
00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.400
out of one hundred, you're just a docile human being.

32
00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:41.159
I don't think you would ever hurt her.

33
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:42.239
Of course not.

34
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.560
It is hot as heck here in Michigan today. It's

35
00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.359
about as hot as it can possibly get hair because

36
00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:51.319
it's ninety five with a heat index. It's one oh five.

37
00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:54.239
And we should be complaining because we're inside our air

38
00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:55.000
conditioned house.

39
00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.200
The air condition can only do so much, and I

40
00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.280
have been sticky all afternoon. It's no surprise that we

41
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:01.439
live really close to Hell.

42
00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.239
Oh we do. We live close to Hell, Michigan, which

43
00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.359
is an actual place. You recently met a friend there?

44
00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.240
I did. I went to the Hell Saloon and yeah,

45
00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:10.800
did we have a good time. I did have a

46
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:12.960
good time. Yeah. It's it's a cute little town. It's

47
00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:15.280
kind of like a kitchy little thing with you know,

48
00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.680
themes like Hell. There's not much to it, but it's well.

49
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:21.560
There's isn't there. There's an ice cream place and like

50
00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:24.439
a mini pup place and a couple of little shops.

51
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:25.960
It's a cute little place.

52
00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:26.520
Yeah.

53
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:29.280
We are at the peak of cherry season here in Michigan,

54
00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:31.439
which is one of my favorite times a year. Cherries

55
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.319
are one of my favorite fruits, and they really are

56
00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.680
delicious here in Michigan. So I made you a snack.

57
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.719
I made you some cookies. I went to our local

58
00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:44.240
market the other day and I got some cherries, some

59
00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.039
fresh cherries, but I also got dried cherries.

60
00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:46.719
Interesting.

61
00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.280
So I made you some cookies. And I've never made

62
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.759
cherry cookies before. This is a recipe from Sally's Baking.

63
00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:57.639
It is white chocolate chip cherry oatmeal cookies. I know

64
00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.560
you're not the biggest oatmeal guy, but I don't.

65
00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.680
Mind oatmeal as long as there's not like raisins in it.

66
00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:04.639
I think everything else it looks good.

67
00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.439
So I think cherry tried cherries and raises they're pretty similar.

68
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:12.560
Not really, how are they not? Really? Because they're both

69
00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.319
like it's a grape that's dried or a cherry that's drucke.

70
00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:17.960
They are there are similarities for sure, But raisins I

71
00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:18.919
just don't care for.

72
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:24.719
But it's of like a plump fresh raisin sometimes like

73
00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:26.960
in the box of raisin brand, like they get kind

74
00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:32.560
of crusty and gross. But no, you're just a yeah.

75
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.400
But those cookies look really good.

76
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:34.560
Yeah, all right, we're gonna get them.

77
00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:34.800
Try.

78
00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:35.360
I sure do.

79
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:43.439
Rate my cookie.

80
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.479
I thought it was excellent, really good, goodlavor. I didn't

81
00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:49.280
get a lot of cherry out of it, maybe just

82
00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:51.080
the bites I had didn't have a lot of cherry.

83
00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.800
I put like one and a half times in the

84
00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:54.960
cherries to be.

85
00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:01.599
Called for, but very oatmeal forward. We've been watching Cop

86
00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:03.840
Shecheff a lot lately. In cases, yes, you didn't realize

87
00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.039
they were that phrase came from But no, I loved it.

88
00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:07.439
I think nine out of ten.

89
00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.439
Oh, okay, you're maybe an easy grader.

90
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.719
Well when it comes to cookies, I like you said

91
00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.280
on part one, I haven't been eating sugar lately, so

92
00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:19.120
any kind of sweet tree is probably gonna taste really good.

93
00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:21.360
Well, I'm so glad that you like them. Maybe we

94
00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:22.959
can take a few on vacation.

95
00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:24.439
Yeah, let's do it, all right, Are.

96
00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.639
You ready to get back to Nancy and Brad Cooper.

97
00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.480
I am do you want to give us a summary?

98
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:32.120
Sure? Canadian couple Nancy and Brad Cooper married quickly in

99
00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.639
two thousand after Brad accepted a job with Cisco Systems

100
00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:38.959
in North Carolina. The sudden moved to the US, combined

101
00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.680
with the loss of their support network, put an immediate

102
00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.240
strain on the relationship. Nancy nearly left Brad early in

103
00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.519
the marriage for another man, but by the time their

104
00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.000
first daughter, Bella, was born in two thousand and four,

105
00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.360
she had begun to settle into life in Carrie, North Carolina,

106
00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.160
building a strong circle of friends. Their second daughter, Katie,

107
00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.879
was born in two thousand and six. Brad, a telec

108
00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.959
communications engineer, traveled frequently for work and was often emotionally

109
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.800
and physically unavailable. Tensions in the marriage grew, with Brad

110
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:12.399
becoming increasingly controlling, removing Nancy's name from their joint accounts,

111
00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.279
taking away her credit cards, and giving her a three

112
00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.839
hundred dollars weekly cash allowance, which he claimed was necessary

113
00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:23.079
due to her shopaholic tendencies. They had decided to divorce,

114
00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.839
with Brad initially saying Nancy and the girls could move

115
00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.800
to Canada. But once he saw the separation agreement and

116
00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.360
the steep child support he would be required to pay,

117
00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.680
he changed course. On the morning of July twelve, two

118
00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.120
thousand and eight, just hours after the couple attended a

119
00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:41.600
neighborhood barbecue, Nancy was reported missing by a friend, not Brad.

120
00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:44.000
He had said that she went for a run and

121
00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:48.120
never returned. Her sudden disappearance alarmed her tight knit friend group,

122
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.959
and suspicion fell on Brad almost immediately. By the time

123
00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:54.800
Nancy's body was found two days later in a muddy

124
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.839
drainage ditch three miles from their home, investigators were already

125
00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.079
narrowing their focus on her husband. When we left off.

126
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:05.160
Emergency custody of Bella and Katie had been awarded to

127
00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.160
her family, but Brad remained a free man due to

128
00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.040
the lack of evidence linking him to Nancy's murder.

129
00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:12.879
Would you like to add anything to that?

130
00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.920
No, I think that was pretty pretty thorough, okay.

131
00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:18.519
In the days following the discovery of Nancy's body, the

132
00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:21.240
police chief asked the community to take down the missing

133
00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.439
person's posters and place them with white ribbons as a

134
00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.000
tribute to Nancy. At a subsequent press conference, Her family

135
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.920
members stepped up to the microphone one by one, each

136
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.399
sharing heartfelt memories and expressing how deeply they loved and

137
00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.600
missed Nancy. They were a tight knit, devoted family who

138
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.399
made time together a priority, spending a week together every

139
00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:45.439
Christmas and taking an annual vacation together. Just five days

140
00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.360
before Nancy's death, they had returned from a week long

141
00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:52.360
trip to Hiltonhead Island without Brad, a memory that now

142
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:57.160
brought them comfort and gratitude. They spoke lovingly of Nancy's warmth, kindness,

143
00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:01.279
sharp sense of humor, and generous spirit. The family strength,

144
00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:04.720
resilience and commitment to caring for Nancy's daughters would have

145
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.560
made her proud. Meanwhile, Brad and his attorneys held a

146
00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.759
press conference too. They reminded the media that Brad hadn't

147
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.079
been named as a suspect and had cooperated with the police.

148
00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:18.519
I'm not so sure how much he really was cooperating,

149
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.959
because remember he never went in for a formal statement.

150
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:24.160
He was questioned at his house a few times, but

151
00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.600
he never went down to the police station. Seth Blum,

152
00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:31.399
one of the attorneys, said, quote, I speak to you

153
00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.399
today as a result of the wild speculation that has

154
00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:38.399
been internationally reported surrounding the death of Brad's wife, Nancy.

155
00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.839
The bizarre and unsupportive theories that have been floating around

156
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.680
television and the Internet have made it impossible for us

157
00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.920
to sit quietly and to say nothing. Brad Cooper is

158
00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.120
a private man. He's not accustomed to the hot glare

159
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:54.879
of the media spotlight. He never dreamed that he would

160
00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.480
see his face splashed across television news shows or his

161
00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:02.600
name in the headlines, especially not under these terrible circumstances.

162
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:06.120
Brad Cooper is also a man in mourning. He's lost

163
00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:10.199
his wife. He is grieving. Mister Cooper wishes to mourn privately.

164
00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.279
He does not want to do it at press conferences.

165
00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.160
He does not wish to do it for reporters. He

166
00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.639
does not wish to mourn in the public eye. Brad's

167
00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:23.199
attorneys took an unusual approach and their effort to shape

168
00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.680
public opinion. On their law firm's website. They created a

169
00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:31.959
dedicated section for his case, sharing documents, surveillance camera footage,

170
00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.759
and commentary. One statement rad quote. We hope Brad will

171
00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:39.039
be afforded the same dignity and presumption of innocence that

172
00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.240
each of us would demand for ourselves. We pray that

173
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.919
the distorted focus on Brad Cooper will not allow the

174
00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:47.600
guilty to escape detection.

175
00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:50.399
That is a pretty novel approach. I haven't heard of

176
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.519
that before. It kind of screams like being defensive though.

177
00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.159
It just seems like it just feels like they're on

178
00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.720
the defensive, which I guess they are.

179
00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.480
I think that can get you in trouble with a

180
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:05.440
judge too, though. Like sharing evidence before the trial, the

181
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.960
site included a detailed timeline of events and security footage

182
00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.840
showing Brad making two trips to the grocery store before

183
00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.120
seven am on July twelfth, in response to a rumor

184
00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.200
that Brad had purchased bleach to clean up after killing Nancy.

185
00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.399
The footage showed clearly that he only bought milk and

186
00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.960
laundry detergent at two separate times, six twenty five and

187
00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.519
six forty four am. Another section of the website appeared

188
00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:32.519
aimed at discrediting Nancy's close knit circle of friends, referring

189
00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:37.759
to them dismissively as the Carrie Click. On Saturday, July nineteenth,

190
00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:42.000
hundreds gathered at the cuckabooth Amphitheater, a place Nancy loved,

191
00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.519
for a memorial in her honor. The Rents family, still

192
00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.759
staying at a hotel, planned to attend with Bella and Katie,

193
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.080
but Bella didn't know that her mother was gone yet.

194
00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.000
Katie was too young to understand. The family had consulted

195
00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.440
a child psychologist about how to best break the news.

196
00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.200
The plan was for Brad to come to the hotel

197
00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:05.399
so they could tell Bella together. Instead, Brad took the

198
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.159
girl swimming, leaving them little time before the memorial. That

199
00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:13.720
responsibility ultimately fell to Nancy's mother, Donna. In the car

200
00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.120
on the way to the service, Donna gently told Bella,

201
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.320
Mommy was lost and they couldn't find her. When they

202
00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:23.120
found Mommy, the doctors couldn't help her. Mommy has died.

203
00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:27.399
Mommy is with the angels. Bella, who was about four

204
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.360
and a half, seemed to understand. She cried softly and repeated,

205
00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.879
Mommy is not coming back. Donna held her close and said, no,

206
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:39.200
but we're all here. We all love you and we're

207
00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:40.320
going to take care of you.

208
00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.879
That's so hard because there's no way a child that

209
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.799
young is going to be able to understand right It

210
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:47.360
happened right.

211
00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:51.840
The memorial was deeply emotional, with many of Nancy's friends

212
00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.519
speaking about her warmth, kindness, and joy. Brad Cooper was

213
00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.399
noticeably absent. A few days later, another memorial was held

214
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.000
in Nancy's hometown of Edmonton. Friends and family created a

215
00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.360
moving photomontage set to music, capturing moments from Nancy's life.

216
00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.639
Hundreds of images were shared, but not a single one

217
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:13.879
included Brad, so you can tell the family is starting

218
00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.039
to pull away from Brad. Yeah, did the investigators in

219
00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.960
this case have tunnel vision? Were there other leads that

220
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.279
weren't followed up on? From pretty early on, it seemed

221
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.200
like the police had their sights set on Brad Cooper

222
00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.799
and they weren't looking anywhere else. Once Nancy's body was

223
00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.559
found and the public started asking questions, investigators zeroed in

224
00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:38.799
on Brad. It's not entirely surprising statistically speaking, of course,

225
00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.440
when a woman is killed, the husband is most often responsible,

226
00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.799
but there's a difference between following a lead and getting

227
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.679
stuck on one. Brad was definitely acting a little off,

228
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.480
and there were things that raised eyebrows, like the cleaned

229
00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:53.840
out trunk of his BMW and the fact that only

230
00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.879
parts of the house had been freshly cleaned, but instead

231
00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.519
of asking why you're keeping an open mind, it seemed

232
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.759
like investors took every odd detail as a confirmation that

233
00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.440
Brad was guilty. Brad said he cleaned the trunk because

234
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.360
he spilled gasoline, but there was no lingering odor of gas.

235
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:12.000
Instead of investigating that further, the police just didn't buy it.

236
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:14.919
And that group of tight knit friends Nancy had the

237
00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.840
so called carry click, had a lot to say about Brad.

238
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:21.200
They described him as controlling and emotionally distant, and police

239
00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:24.360
seemed to take their word for it without much pushback,

240
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.200
while their perspective definitely mattered. There's a difference between testimony

241
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.679
and assumption. What's more troubling is the idea that other

242
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.080
leads may have been ignored completely. If Nancy did go

243
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.519
for a run that morning, did police thoroughly check the

244
00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.600
area or follow up with every possible witness, or were

245
00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:43.720
they already so focused on Brad that they pushed those

246
00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.840
avenues aside. Brad's defense team later argued that the case

247
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.799
against him was more about fitting the facts into a

248
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.919
theory than actually solving the crime, and it's hard not

249
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.480
to wonder were investigators trying to figure out who killed

250
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.279
Nancy or were they just trying to prove it was Brad.

251
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.480
Was Brad really abusive to Nancy, or was she just

252
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:06.799
very vocal to her friends about every perceived slight and disagreement.

253
00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:09.799
I mention all of this because a lot of people

254
00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:12.399
think that Brad could possibly be innocent.

255
00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:15.759
Yeah. Well, it's definitely true that police do sometimes have

256
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:19.320
tunnel vision, and that's not a good thing. But sometimes

257
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:21.240
it's they have tunnel vision because it's kind.

258
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:22.840
Of obvious that's where the evidence is pointing.

259
00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.720
Yeah, but I do agree like that his alibi that

260
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.559
she went on a run and disappeared, should have been

261
00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.639
very thoroughly checked out, like I would think they would

262
00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:36.440
canvass the entire neighborhood everywhere that she potentially would have gone.

263
00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:37.559
I believe that they did.

264
00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:37.960
Yeah.

265
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.480
Yeah, So in the morning of July twelfth, many people

266
00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.399
were out walking or jogging early to beat the rising

267
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.200
summer heat. Despite the active neighborhood, no one initially came

268
00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.080
forward to see that they'd seen Nancy until Rosemary Zednik

269
00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:54.279
spoke up. She said that she'd tried contacting the Carrey

270
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.879
Police department multiple times, but never received a follow up. Eventually,

271
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.279
she gave a more an affidavit to Brad Cooper's attorneys,

272
00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:05.399
stating that she'd seen Nancy around seven to ten while

273
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.080
out walking her dog. According to Rosemary, Nancy jogged past her,

274
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.080
wearing an iPod and greeting her with a quick high.

275
00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:15.960
At the time, Rosemary didn't recognize Nancy, but later, after

276
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.480
seeing a missing person's fire, she realized that it had

277
00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:20.200
been Nancy.

278
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.519
This reminds me a little bit of lazy Peters.

279
00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:23.159
I didn't say that.

280
00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.919
Yes, It just worries me because I think when a

281
00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.879
story like this comes out, people their memories are not

282
00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.200
always so good, and they want to be they want

283
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.480
to have seen her, and so they're like, yeah, I

284
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:34.720
did see her. I'm sure it was her.

285
00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.840
It's almost like you're a police officer, I know, with

286
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.879
the Carrie Police Department, because I think that's what they said.

287
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.559
I mean, yeah. Brad filed several affidavits with the court

288
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.039
in an attempt to undo the damage caused by the

289
00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:50.960
sworn statements from Nancy's friends. He denied all the allegations

290
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.360
against him, he had an answer for everything. In response

291
00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.360
to the claim that he was financially abusive to Nancy.

292
00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.679
Brad said that after paying the bills, he gave Nancy

293
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.559
eighty percent of whatever remained. According to his affidavit, this

294
00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.480
came out to roughly three hundred dollars a week. He

295
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.159
said that Nancy often told him it wasn't enough, and

296
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.080
that he frequently tried to supplement the amount when he could.

297
00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:15.600
They were deeply in debt and he was trying to

298
00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.120
pull them out and live within their means. And we

299
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.440
talked about it on Part one. Three hundred dollars a week,

300
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:22.559
which in today's dollars I think you said was four

301
00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:24.840
hundred and fifty dollars a week. It's not a small

302
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.960
amount when it comes to buying groceries and kind of

303
00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.320
daily household expenditures.

304
00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:35.240
Right. I think back to Josh Powell, Josh and Susan Powell.

305
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.639
He was severely financially abusive to his wife and like

306
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.799
to a much greater extent. Right. But like we said

307
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.159
in Part one, I think it's more the idea of

308
00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.360
taking a grown up credit cards and paying account from them.

309
00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.639
That is definitely yeah, that is overly controlling. Yes, Brad

310
00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.919
disputed that he ever took Nancy's phone away and produced

311
00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.279
phone records that showed that Nancy had made three four

312
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.480
hundred and fifty six cell phone calls between January and

313
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.080
June of two thousand and eight. That's about twenty calls

314
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:05.440
a day.

315
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.120
That's so many calls is a lot. She had a

316
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:09.840
lot of French. She was very popular.

317
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.120
He claimed it was Nancy's lavish spending that caused them

318
00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.879
to be forty five thousand dollars in debt and required

319
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.679
him to take out an eighty thousand dollars home equity loan.

320
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.200
Brad said in his affidavit quote, Nancy liked to buy

321
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:26.879
eight thousand dollars paintings, designer clothing, Tiffany jewelry status was

322
00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.519
important to Nancy, and I indulged her too much.

323
00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.879
I think that he is exaggerating greatly. I think that

324
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.120
Nancy liked nice things, but I don't think that she

325
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:37.960
was a shopaholic. I think when you're young and you

326
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:39.879
have two young kids, there's a lot of you know,

327
00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.440
needs and right once and yeah, It's not like she

328
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.279
went out every week and was like, you know, I'm

329
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.559
gonna buy this ten thousand dollars painting. Yeah, it happened once.

330
00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.720
He pointed to a fully loaded BMW that she had

331
00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.080
wanted that he had purchased. He cited a three thousand

332
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.759
dollar necklace that he had bought her for Christmas as well.

333
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.559
He broke down there two thousand and seven spending on

334
00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.519
their American Express card. Nancy spent twenty seven thousand dollars

335
00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:09.240
and he spent seventeen thousand dollars. He made about sixty

336
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.839
five thousand dollars a year, which is about one hundred

337
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.000
thousand in today's dollars. One hundred thousand dollars a year

338
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.880
in today's dollars. That seems remarkably low for when we

339
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.200
talked about in part one. He has an very very

340
00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:27.599
specialized skill set in telecommunications and voiceover IP or voice,

341
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.680
so it seems, Yeah, that seems really low to me.

342
00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.200
Yeah, their budget was tight and being forty thousand dollars

343
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.519
in debt, like you have to tighten things up where

344
00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.680
that debt is just going to keep snowballing.

345
00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.240
Yeah, for sure. Brad admitted to only one affair, a

346
00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.880
one night stand with Heather Mature. Along with his affidavit,

347
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.960
he sent numerous pictures of himself as a doting father

348
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:53.200
dressed up for Halloween, swimming, reading and holding them lovingly

349
00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.359
as babies. To quote Amy Lamb, the author of Love Lies,

350
00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.599
A True Story of Marriage and Murder in the Suburbs quote,

351
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.000
the pictures were so normal, so mundane. It seemed that

352
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:06.359
either this man was being set up or he was

353
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.799
a master of deception. Brad's parents and brother submitted affidavits

354
00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.599
in support of his effort to retain custody of Bella

355
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.880
and Katie. Two of the girl's preschool teachers and five

356
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:20.920
of Brad's friends also provided statements on his behalf. One

357
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:24.279
friend submitted affidavits for both Brad and the Rents family.

358
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:28.000
The affidavits didn't say anything negative about Nancy, just that

359
00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:31.839
Brad was a loving, capable father. On July twenty fifth,

360
00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:36.279
nearly two weeks after Nancy's murder, the emergency custody agreement expired,

361
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.960
prompting a court hearing. That same day, Nancy's sister and

362
00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.200
brother in law, Christa and Jim Lister, filed a motion

363
00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:48.000
requesting that Brad undergo a psychological evaluation, expressing concern that

364
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.640
he was unfit to parent. Brad was hesitant to testify

365
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:52.839
under oath, so.

366
00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.519
This case is very similar to the Michelle and Jason

367
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.039
Young case that we did a few weeks ago. And

368
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:03.440
remember that Jason he relinquished custody of his daughters rather

369
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.559
than testify under oaths. Right, but at least Brad here is,

370
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:09.799
you know, willing to testify.

371
00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.920
His reluctance led the judge to extend temporary custody to

372
00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.480
the Rentz family until a full hearing could be held

373
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.519
in October. In the meantime, Brad was permitted to call

374
00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.720
his daughters four times a week and have supervised visits

375
00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.640
twice a month, limited to four hours each weekend.

376
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.480
These calls, I guess were a nightmare for Christa and

377
00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.440
Jim to try to harness the kids and say hey,

378
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.799
let's have a call with Daddy, and yeah, they had

379
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.920
no interest in it. You know, Katie is just two

380
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.759
and Bellows four, and they just really hated having to

381
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.319
talk to Brad over the phone. And Brad was really

382
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.720
you know, heard because he wanted to talk to his

383
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.200
girls and they were very far away. So it was

384
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:50.519
it was a tough situation.

385
00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.799
Yeah, that is a tough situation. His attorneys framed the

386
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.640
custody decision as one that Brad accepted for the sake

387
00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.680
of his children, suggesting that he wanted to shield them

388
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.519
from the media spotlight and believed that they were better

389
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.240
off in Canada away from public scrutiny. In a statement

390
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:09.559
released after the ruling, his legal team said quote, while

391
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.240
he will miss the daily joys of fatherhood, he fully

392
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.319
intends to remain a vital force in his children's lives.

393
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.599
Though it is painful to contemplate any additional day without

394
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.200
his girls, mister Cooper accepts this as a heartrending but

395
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:24.720
necessary step toward achieving justice.

396
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.279
I'm surprised that the judge allowed Christa, the rent's family

397
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.599
to take the girls to Canada, because it's twelve hours

398
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.400
from Toronto to carry North Carolina. Yeah.

399
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.279
I'm surprised at that too. I mean, I know he's

400
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:42.119
under suspicion and it maybe wasn't a good parent or

401
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:44.319
a good fit for him to have custody, But I

402
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.599
would think that they would take into consideration than arrested.

403
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:49.079
Yeah.

404
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.279
Yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't want to to

405
00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.559
seem like I'm empathetic towards Brat. It just was a surprise.

406
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.880
It is surprising. Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

407
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.319
After Nancy's death, both girls, especially four year old Bella,

408
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.400
struggled with the overwhelming loss. Ellie began having accidents and

409
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.559
became emotionally fragile, prone to sudden tears and intense tantrums.

410
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:20.559
Her grandparents arranged for her to see a grief counselor,

411
00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.480
but nothing could soothe the pain of losing her mother.

412
00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.880
It was heartbreaking to witness. When they gently reminded her

413
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.559
that her mommy was now with the angels, Bella looked

414
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:32.240
at the sky and cried, Mommy, where are you? I

415
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.720
need you. She carried a photo of Nancy everywhere she went.

416
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.920
Bella kept a special box filled with little treasures and

417
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.240
trinkets that reminded her of her mom. Sweet, four year

418
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:45.880
old sized keepsakes she either clung to or hoped to

419
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.200
show Nancy. One day, That simple ritual seemed to give

420
00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.960
her a bit of comfort. So heartbreaking it is. Katie,

421
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.519
being younger, couldn't fully express what she was feeling, but

422
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:58.640
the signs of her grief were clear. Her sleep became

423
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.799
disordered and her speech was noticeably delayed. Donna and Gary

424
00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.480
Wrenz adored their granddaughters, but felt they were too old

425
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.359
to take on the demands of full time parenting. Among

426
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.880
Nancy's siblings, all were happily married, and two of the

427
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.359
couples had one child each. Christa and Nancy's twin had

428
00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:16.960
been very close to Bella and Katie. She called them

429
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:19.519
every morning on the way to school. The girls called

430
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.880
her Christamum, and because she looked so much like Nancy,

431
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.279
her present was a comfort to them after their mother

432
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.559
was gone. Christa had undergone a hysterectomy and couldn't conceive naturally,

433
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:32.240
but she shared a deep bond with her nieces, who

434
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:35.400
adored her in return. When Nancy was still alive, the

435
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.680
sisters had even discussed the possibility of Nancy asked acting

436
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.640
as a surrogate for Christa after her death. The Rent's

437
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.279
family believed that Christa and her husband Jim were the

438
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.640
best choice to raise Bella and Katie. The only complication

439
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.240
was that they lived in Toronto, while the rest of

440
00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:53.920
the family remained in Edmonton, over two thousand miles away.

441
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.720
Christa said quote, I always wanted kids to get them

442
00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.839
this way. No, but the cool thing is that they've

443
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.920
got my DNA. Nan and I shared that it's the

444
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.319
closest thing to having kids for me. Krista and Jim

445
00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.880
embraced parenting their nieces despite the challenges they faced. Krista

446
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.559
left her career as an interior designer to care for

447
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:17.680
Bella and Katy full time. Both girls struggled with separation, anxiety,

448
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.400
and sleep issues, an understandable response to the trauma that

449
00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.160
they had endured, but with patience, structure, and unconditional support,

450
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.319
they began to heal. Krista and Jim enrolled them in

451
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:32.480
ballet and gymnastics, and in their bedroom they displayed family photos,

452
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.960
including pictures of both Nancy and Brad. The girl psychologist

453
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.400
was encouraged by their progress. In a deposition during the

454
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.319
custody proceedings, she praised the family's efforts, saying, quote, this

455
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.279
is a remarkable family who truly thinks and acts whatever

456
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.559
way is required to serve the best interest of these children.

457
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.720
I have never had reason to question their integrity or

458
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.599
their commitment to provide Bella and Katy with a happy,

459
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.960
healthy life, one that, though without out their mother, keeps

460
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.640
Nancy Cooper's presence very much alive for them. Her influence,

461
00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:07.960
character and strength remade an integral part of their lives.

462
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.559
On August sixth, two thousand and eight, a new sworn

463
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.440
affidavit was submitted to the court, this time by Carrie Clark,

464
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.920
the friend that Brad claimed Nancy had gone running with

465
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.799
on the morning of July twelfth. The statement was just

466
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:25.160
one sentence, but it dramatically shifted the course of the

467
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:29.680
investigation and public perception of Brad Cooper. Quote. I had

468
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:33.240
no plans to run with Nancy Cooper on Saturday, July twelfth,

469
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:35.960
two thousand and eight, and I never ran with Nancy

470
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.359
Cooper on July twelfth, two thousand and eight. While the

471
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:43.319
affidavit didn't prove that Nancy hadn't gone for our run

472
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.960
that day, it casts serious doubt on Brad's version of events,

473
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.920
and it didn't look good for him.

474
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:50.440
No, it doesn't look good for him.

475
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:52.640
I don't know why Brad would say that.

476
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:54.599
I know that seems really such an.

477
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:55.920
Easy thing to check up on.

478
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:57.119
Yeah.

479
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.960
With the custody issue not resolved and Brad not arrested,

480
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:05.519
he sat for a comprehensive psychological evaluation in August, an

481
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.440
eight hour test that costs about twelve thousand dollars. Ultimately,

482
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.920
the results found him to be a normal, nonviolent person

483
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.440
with an anger problem that he mostly kept under control,

484
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:17.839
especially in public.

485
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:23.400
That is my nightmare, be psychologically festive.

486
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.839
They would probably just commit me right then in there.

487
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:28.839
Do you think you would? How would you fare?

488
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:31.559
I have no idea. I don't really want to know either.

489
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.319
I guess think you're pretty unflappable. Brad sat for a

490
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.480
deposition in October two thousand and eight again for the

491
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.119
custody battle. He seemed calm and unflappable, because that's a

492
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.839
favorite word, I guess. So some things that were memorable

493
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.799
were Brad not recalling the color of the dress Nancy

494
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.240
had worn the night of the party, and not remembering

495
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.799
if he'd washed it. Do you think that you can

496
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:55.480
recall what I wore yesterday?

497
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.279
No, I definitely that part doesn't seem at all suspicious

498
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.440
to me, because yeah, there's I wouldn't remember that either,

499
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.720
But not remembering if he'd washed it? Did he he

500
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:05.839
didn't normally do the laundry. I'm guessing it.

501
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.200
Didn't normally do laundry, but if you remember when he

502
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.960
went to the grocery store, he did purchase laundry detergent,

503
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.559
So either he or Nancy was doing laundry that morning.

504
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.039
But typically no, I don't believe he did it. He

505
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.720
claimed to never have driven by fielding drive in the

506
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:23.480
new subdivision where Nancy's body was found. Quote, no, I

507
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.279
haven't driven past it. I have no interest in driving

508
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:29.880
past it. When asked about his past relationships, he named

509
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:34.839
his two ex fiancees, Taylene Lyon and Jennifer Wilson. He

510
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:37.599
said there was no history of violence, but neither woman

511
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.720
could be found to corroborate this claim. We'll come back

512
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.920
to this in a few minutes after the deposition was

513
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.519
made public, Detective Greg Daniels, who was leading the investigation,

514
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.920
made a statement, quote, Bradley Cooper has not fully cooperated

515
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.160
with her investigation into the murder of Nancy Cooper and

516
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.640
has not been willing to come to the police department

517
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:03.160
to assist in the vastigation and provide information, despite formal

518
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:06.319
requests from the Carrey Police Department that he do so.

519
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.079
The testimony given under oath by Bradley Cooper during his

520
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.359
video deposition is inconsistent with the statements made by Bradley

521
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.519
Cooper to the Carrie Police Department at his residence on

522
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:22.319
July twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth, two thousand and eight. Jennifer Windsor,

523
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.079
who had previously been referred to in legal documents as

524
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.839
Jennifer Wilson, believed Brad Cooper intentionally mistated her name to

525
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:35.799
make her harder to find. After moving from Alberta to Hawaii,

526
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.960
she was contacted by a friend back in Canada who

527
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:41.759
told her that her name had come up in Brad's deposition.

528
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:46.680
In response, Jennifer voluntarily offered to provide a statement. In

529
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:52.279
her deposition, she described Brad as emotionally abusive throughout their relationship. Quote,

530
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.319
he constantly belittled me in front of others. He frequently

531
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:59.279
criticized my weight and appearance, even telling people I look

532
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.599
pregnant when I I wasn't. Jennifer said that she had

533
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.000
never before and never since, been in a relationship where

534
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.799
she was treated so poorly. She described Brad as emotionally

535
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.960
detached and mentally cruel. After they broke up, she asked

536
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.559
him to move out, and he simply relocated to another

537
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:19.799
apartment in the same building. A neighbor warren Jennifer that

538
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.759
Brad had been entering her apartment while she was away.

539
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:25.920
Quote by the end of our relationship, I feared for

540
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:31.160
my physical safety. His behavior became increasingly disturbing, so much though,

541
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.480
that I broke my lease and moved out to avoid

542
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:35.640
living in the same building as him.

543
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.240
Wow, that's pretty damning as well. Did they ever find

544
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.680
the other ex fiance?

545
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:40.880
Not that I know of.

546
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:45.119
On October sixteenth, another custody hearing was held to determine

547
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.559
if Bella and Katie would remain in Canada or rejoin

548
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.880
Brad in North Carolina.

549
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.559
I think during this time Brad had only seen the

550
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.279
girls twice. He had to have supervised custody. He had

551
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.519
to go I'm sorry, supervised visitation. He had to go

552
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.640
to a a certain building and people had to watch

553
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:04.960
him with the girls, and he could only see them

554
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:06.160
for four hours at a time.

555
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:10.519
Okay. Nancy's family and friends again all testified, but Brad

556
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.440
did not. A new witness at this hearing was doctor

557
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:17.599
James Hilkey, the psychologist who had evaluated Brad. He said

558
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:20.640
Brad was very intelligent, but not good at reading social

559
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:25.400
cues and sometimes came off as arrogant and detached. He said, quote,

560
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.319
I think mister Cooper is a very complex man. He

561
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.400
is in a very complex situation, which makes the evaluation

562
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.440
challenging mister Cooper presents as someone who is somewhat angry

563
00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:39.000
and somewhat anxious. He couldn't rule out that Brad was

564
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:43.720
being deceptive. Rosemary Zednik testified with certainty that the woman

565
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.680
she saw running on July twelfth was Nancy Cooper. However,

566
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:51.359
her eagerness to be involved raised some eyebrows. She had

567
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.440
reached out to police nine times, and, frustrated by the

568
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:58.559
lack of response, eventually contacted Brad's defense team, who were

569
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:01.400
eager to hear what she had to say. At that point,

570
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.119
she was the only person besides Brad who claimed to

571
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:06.960
have seen Nancy alive that morning. At the end of

572
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.079
the eight hour hearing, the judge asked for patients as

573
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:12.920
she thought about it. Four days later, she ruled that

574
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:16.359
Bella and Katie could remain in Canada with Christa and

575
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:17.839
her husband, Jim.

576
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:20.839
I'm so glad that this judge had that foresight to

577
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:25.319
leave them in Canada because again, it reminds me of

578
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.119
other cases that we've had, like Susan and Josh Powell,

579
00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:31.119
where the children weren't safe with their father. Yeah, and

580
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.640
I think the children's safety is the most important thing.

581
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.880
Yeah, it just seems like the best situation all around

582
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.559
for the children at this point. On Monday, October twenty seventh,

583
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:42.279
two thousand and eight, a grand jury in Wake County

584
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.880
convened to review the evidence against Brad Cooper. By the

585
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.200
end of the day, he was arrested and charged with

586
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.720
the first degree murder of his wife, Nancy. Neighbors watched

587
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.960
from their doorsteps as Brad was led out of his

588
00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:56.799
home in handcuffs. One even stood in the street and

589
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.559
cheered and applauded. That same day, Brad appeared in court,

590
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.319
his face expressionless as the judge ordered him held without bond.

591
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:07.799
His legal team told the court that Brad had exhausted

592
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:12.160
his financial resources and requested a public defender. The judge

593
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.160
agreed to let his attorney, Howard Kurtz stay on the case,

594
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.720
with the state covering the cost. In a somewhat unexpected

595
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.359
show of support, Brad's mother, Carol Cooper, attended the hearing.

596
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.160
She stood by her son, but declined to speak with reporters.

597
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.400
Nancy's family was elated, mostly because Bella and Katie were

598
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.440
now safe and their custody would no longer be in question.

599
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:38.960
Christa said, quote huge weight lifted. I was elated. Oh man,

600
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.359
we were so happy. We felt like we won. It

601
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.960
was good closure. Now we have the kids, We're good.

602
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.720
I felt that all of my suspicions were correct and

603
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.720
that I was finally allowed to grieve and say, Okay,

604
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:53.000
now I know that what I was feeling was right.

605
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.799
It was great. It was so good. In early December,

606
00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.480
at a rule twenty four hearing, the DA announced the

607
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.680
state would not be seeking the death penalty. The judge

608
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.880
set bail at two million dollars.

609
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.400
Which he was not able to provide, and stayed in jail.

610
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.200
The psychologist advised Christa and Jim that the girls would

611
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.000
only bring up things they were ready to face. In

612
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.880
February two thousand and nine, a girl at Bella's school

613
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:19.880
drew a picture of a woman in a pool of

614
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.359
blood and said, this is Bella's mama.

615
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:24.079
Oh this makes me so mad.

616
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:28.640
Yeah, that's really awful, another parent told Christa, who immediately

617
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.960
went to the school to confirm the story. The psychologist

618
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.519
urged her to be honest with Bella, but keep her

619
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:38.480
answers simple and age appropriate. One evening, sitting on the

620
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.319
bathroom floor, Bella said, matter of factly, quote I know, Mama,

621
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.400
Nancy didn't get hurt running. She was too strong. It

622
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:48.960
had to be a bear or a man. Christa gently replied,

623
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.519
it wasn't a bear. You're right, she was killed. Bella

624
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.759
looked her straight in the eye. Do you know who

625
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.759
Christa's heart pounded? Quote? No, But the police have a

626
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.400
suspect and one day there will be a trial. They're

627
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.160
working very hard to find out who did this. That's

628
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.720
a really delicate conversation to have to have.

629
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.799
Yeah, and the bear man thing too, is very astute

630
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:12.359
for five year old.

631
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.599
As much as she wanted to tell Bella everything, Christa

632
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.279
knew she had to wait until Brad was convicted. In

633
00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.079
May two thousand and nine, Brad signed away his parental

634
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.680
rights to his children, giving Christa and Jim permanent custody,

635
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.119
but he was still hoping to win them back. When

636
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:32.839
he was exonerated, Brad's attorneys subpoenaed Nancy's medical records and

637
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:36.240
found she had an STD screening in April two thousand

638
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.960
and eight. They used this to accuse her of having

639
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:42.599
multiple affairs. It's unclear why she had the test, but

640
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.759
could just as easily have been because she was protecting

641
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:50.200
herself from Brad's extramarital affairs. Brad wanted the trial moved,

642
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.759
thinking a fair trial would be impossible in Wake County.

643
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:56.440
But that did not happen. Brad Cooper's trial for the

644
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:59.640
first degree murder of his wife began nearly three years

645
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:03.279
after her death in March twenty eleven. Brad's parents flew

646
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.839
in for the trial to support their son, keeping to

647
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:10.079
themselves and not talking to the media. During opening arguments,

648
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.800
Assistant da Amy Fitzhugh accused Brad of intercepting and reading

649
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:18.400
Nancy's emails and financial control. She said that Brad had

650
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.480
been uncooperative with police and that his story had changed

651
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.239
over time. She closed with quote, you will be convinced

652
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:28.480
that Nancy Brenz Cooper never went for a run on

653
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:31.719
July twelve, two thousand and eight. You will be convinced

654
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.960
that Bradley Graham Cooper killed his wife and his guilty

655
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.679
of first degree murder. The prosecution's theory was that Brad

656
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.199
strangled Nancy on the night of July twelfth when she

657
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.119
came home, and then dumped her body at the construction

658
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:48.199
site between the grocery store runs. The next morning. Howard Kurtzy,

659
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.400
speaking for Brad's defense, spoke for more than two hours,

660
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.519
dropping new evidence as he went. He claimed that sixteen

661
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.760
people had seen Nancy out jogging on Saturday, July twelfth,

662
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.639
but police had never followed up with any of them,

663
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:06.599
accusing the Carey Police Department of tunnel vision ignoring any

664
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:09.559
evidence that didn't fit into their narrative that Bread had

665
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:13.639
killed Nancy. Kurtz accused Nancy of quote airing the couple's

666
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:18.320
dirty laundry and embellishing as only she could. He also

667
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.840
accused Nancy of having an affair with a neighbor, John Pearson,

668
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:24.719
who had admitted to having sex with Nancy after a

669
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:28.159
Halloween party while Brad was out of town. Katy was

670
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:32.199
born eight months and twenty four days later. Defense attorneys

671
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:35.039
had attempted to get a DNA test done, but they

672
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.119
were never able to do so. They were trying to

673
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:42.400
lay groundwork that Pearson had motive. Pearson would say under

674
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.079
oath later that he didn't think Katy was his child,

675
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:48.320
but he'd also wondered. He said that the sexual encounter

676
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.559
with Nancy ended abruptly when they'd realized it was a mistake,

677
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.599
and they'd agreed to never talk about it again. At

678
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.480
the time, Nancy had been trying actively to get pregnant

679
00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.760
and was undergoing fertility treatments. And for what it's worth,

680
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.159
John Pearson did have an alibi for July twelfth, and

681
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.119
he was with his children while his ex wife was working.

682
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:10.000
Interesting.

683
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.559
Brad's demeanor during the trial appeared odd to some people.

684
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.400
He was seen smiling and joking with his attorneys. One

685
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.159
point the prosecution wanted to drive home was that Nancy

686
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:23.239
had been murdered the night before her disappearance when she

687
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.519
returned from the party. They contended that the phone call

688
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.400
that Brad had received asking him to return to the

689
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.559
store was an automated phone call that he'd set up

690
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.000
using software from his job. Oh interesting, Does that make

691
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:36.480
sense to you?

692
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.360
I mean, I don't know how easy that would be

693
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:42.000
to do, but it does make sense that that could

694
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:42.840
be a possibility.

695
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.400
Yes, I've heard that. People say that that's actually not

696
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:46.079
that hard to do.

697
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:46.519
Yeah.

698
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.400
A CSI agent testified that there was evidence of blood

699
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.360
found under Nancy's fingernails, but it wasn't able to be

700
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:57.480
identified due to her body being exposed to the elements

701
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:00.760
for so long. A detective testified that they'd never found

702
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.239
the pair of sneakers that Brad was wearing during his

703
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.519
first grocery store run. During the second run, he was

704
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.280
wearing sandals or flip flops. A geologist analyzed the soil

705
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:12.920
in a different pair of brad sneakers and said that

706
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:16.800
it contained micah, a mineral found in the soil where

707
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:20.440
Nancy was found, which was the only forensic evidence linking

708
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.119
him to Nancy's murder, and that was pretty weak and.

709
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.639
Feels micah is probably found in a lot of places,

710
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:26.519
right yeah.

711
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:29.639
A voice technology expert testify that on the morning of

712
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:33.199
July twelfth, Brad made several brief calls to check his

713
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:37.400
voicemail at six thirty seven, six forty five, and six

714
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.840
point fifty three. At seven twenty six am, he called

715
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:44.199
Cisco's voicemail system in Ireland and left a three second

716
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.039
message that was routed to his North Carolina office. The

717
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:52.960
message simply said testing one two three. Then at seven

718
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.400
point fifty six, he dialed into Cisco's conference call system

719
00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.400
based in San Jose, California. His testimony was very technical,

720
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.400
but in essence he acknowledged that it was possible to

721
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:06.679
remotely place a call to his cell phone and make

722
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:09.519
it look like it had originated from his home phone.

723
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:13.039
To make this special phone call, Brad would need a router,

724
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:17.599
this very specific router, and it was available at his

725
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:20.320
Cisco office. If you worked in the Cisco office, you

726
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:23.400
were welcome to take any equipment home with you. And

727
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:26.000
it was missing from the office. But it also was

728
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:29.199
not present in the Cooper's home either. And I also

729
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.719
heard something that if you were using this technology, the

730
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.639
phone call can only be twenty three seconds long, and

731
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.840
the phone call Brad made was thirty six seconds or

732
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:42.079
something like that. Okay, So Brad didn't testify, but his

733
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.960
seven hour deposition was played in court. I watched parts

734
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.119
of the deposition an old boy. It was dry. Yeah,

735
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.800
it was tough to get through. Yeah. An FBI agent

736
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.920
confirmed that Brad had intercepted emails from Nancy's account, including

737
00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:00.199
messages from her attorney, friend's family, and an old boy.

738
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.880
Emails between Brad and a frenchwoman were also found. Brad's

739
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.880
NBA graduating class took a trip to Paris, where he

740
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.000
met a woman that classmates recall him spending a lot

741
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.039
of time with Nancy's laptop, which was kept in the

742
00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.039
kitchen had been used on the morning of her disappearance,

743
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:20.320
as well as the following morning. Brad had looked up

744
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:23.920
news articles related to Nancy's disappearance and gone to the

745
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:28.559
website web Sluice. But on Brad's computer, a search that

746
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:31.320
he'd done on the afternoon of July eleventh, the day

747
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.719
before Nancy disappeared, changed everything. He viewed and zoomed in

748
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.480
on a satellite aerial view of a fielding drive in Carrie,

749
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:44.159
North Carolina on Google Maps, the exact location where Nancy's

750
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.039
body was found.

751
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:45.559
Oh boy.

752
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:50.239
The courtroom sat in stunned silence as the prosecutor dropped

753
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.880
the bombshell. The defense didn't have much legroom, but pointed

754
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.760
out no cookies from Google Maps were on Brad's computer.

755
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.239
Bought cookies are super easy to delete. They all also

756
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.639
suggested that someone could have planted the evidence or hacked

757
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:07.039
into his computer. Also bookmarked on his computer was a

758
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:11.480
website A practical Guide to Suicide We'll be back after

759
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:12.000
a break.

760
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:24.039
On Tuesday, April nineteenth, the defense began their case. They

761
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.440
knew they needed to clean up the Google Map search

762
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.199
of Fielding drive, the most damning evidence against Brad. They

763
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:32.760
claimed that his laptop had not been powered down when

764
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.880
seized by police, and for those twenty seven hours it

765
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.800
was vulnerable to hacking and other files could have been

766
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:42.039
tampered with as well. In fact, six hundred and ninety

767
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.360
two files were found to have been modified.

768
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:47.800
Okay, this is a question for you because I am

769
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.400
not a computer person. But files are constantly being updated

770
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.280
on your computer, whether you're doing the updating or not.

771
00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:59.559
Correct it depends on what kind of files. It's hard

772
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.840
to say six hundred and ninety two generic files, but yeah,

773
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:05.840
definitely things are changing on your computer all the time,

774
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:07.159
whether you're doing anything or not.

775
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:11.000
Does that seem like an unusually high amount though not

776
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.400
not really necessarily right.

777
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.440
Yeah, it's hard to say without more information, but it

778
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:18.440
seems like it's certainly possible that that could be the case.

779
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:22.440
The police could have framed him. Rosemary' zednik and a

780
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.599
few others testified about seeing women jogging that looked like Nancy.

781
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.639
And allegedly there was this mysterious van. There's always a

782
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:34.440
mysterious vand I say, and there were two Hispanic men

783
00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:36.800
in the van, so you know they were up to

784
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.199
no good.

785
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:42.519
Allegedly, several police officers disputed Rosemary's claim and remembered talking

786
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:45.159
to her, but found her to be not credible.

787
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:49.360
One thing that police pointed to was that Rosemary was

788
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:52.400
insistent that the person that the person she saw jogging

789
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:56.760
had an iPod, and Nancy never ran with an iPod.

790
00:41:56.920 --> 00:42:01.559
Oh. Interesting surveillance video from Maylie of Nancy, Bella, and

791
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.159
Katie at the grocery store resurfaced. It was likely after

792
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:07.800
they had left the pool after spending the day with friends.

793
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:10.480
As Nancy walked out of the store, it was clear

794
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:13.280
that she hadn't been wearing the diamond pendant that her

795
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.719
friends had testified. She never took off. And this is

796
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:21.440
another bombshell. Detective Jim Young accidentally deleted the contents of

797
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:25.480
Nancy's BlackBerry. Was it an accident? Could there have been

798
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:28.880
evidence of an affair or other exculpatory evidence.

799
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:31.400
Okay, this is another question for you because I know

800
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:33.199
it was one hundred years ago, but you owned a

801
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:36.440
BlackBerry and I had heard that they are very hard

802
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.199
to delete.

803
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.280
I have no idea, I have no recollection of that.

804
00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:43.000
That seems like that would be a pretty big mistake,

805
00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:44.840
But I don't know how easy your heart it would

806
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:45.559
be to do that.

807
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.920
But then in the police department's defense, they also said, well,

808
00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:53.320
we have that data from the phone company, so so.

809
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:55.920
It didn't really matter if it was deleted because they

810
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:56.599
could get the data.

811
00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:56.800
End.

812
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.480
That's what they were saying. But who knows, yeh.

813
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:02.360
On April twenty eighth, the jury sent the judge the

814
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:06.199
following note, quote, please encourage the attorneys to use time

815
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:10.280
more wisely. We are hoping to finish this soon. Please

816
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:12.880
ask them to have their witnesses ready to go. We

817
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:16.199
want our lives back. That's really wild.

818
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:18.079
Isn't that funny. I've never heard of a jury doing

819
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:20.719
it before, and I love them for it. I mean,

820
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:23.519
the trial had gone on for about two months, and

821
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:26.119
I don't believe anyone thought it was going to last

822
00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:28.159
as long as it did. These jurors were just like,

823
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.679
they're frustrate. I think there was a lot of you know,

824
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:35.039
I went through it really quickly, relatively quickly, but I

825
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:37.159
think there was a lot of technical testimony.

826
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:41.239
Yeah that's enough. Yeah. The defense rested the next day.

827
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:44.400
The judge denied their request to dismiss the case.

828
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:48.400
On Tuesday, May third, the eight week trial entered its

829
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:52.320
last phase after closing arguments. The jury was made up

830
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:56.679
of ten women and two men. That's a very woman

831
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:57.639
heavy jury, right.

832
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:58.239
Yeah, it is.

833
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:01.360
On the second day, after five hours, they requested to

834
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:05.159
see several pieces of evidence, including photographs of Nancy's body

835
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:09.800
from behind, three photographs taken by police of the Cooper's bedroom,

836
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:13.719
cell phone records from both of the Cooper's phones, customer

837
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.760
records from two grocery stores, and the videotape deposition of

838
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.239
Brad Cooper from October two thousand and eight. This indicated

839
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.559
to everyone waiting that they were struggling to come to

840
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:27.079
a consensus. But on the third day, after about nine

841
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.599
hours of deliberation, they reached a verdict. What do you

842
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:31.039
think their.

843
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.280
Verdict was, I am going to go with guilty.

844
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.800
Guilty of first degree murder, sentenced to life in prison

845
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:41.159
without the possibility of parole. Brad sat emotionless, as did

846
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.039
his parents behind him. On the other side of the courtroom.

847
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.239
The Rent's family wept and held each other. The jury

848
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:49.800
members wiped tears from their faces as they watched the

849
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:54.239
emotional celebration. Judge Paul Gessner spoke directly to the jury.

850
00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.679
He implored them not to second guess their verdict or

851
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.800
questioned the process based on what they heard in the

852
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:03.880
media in the days and weeks to come. Quote and

853
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:07.400
certainly don't concern yourself with the opinions of the bloggers

854
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:10.519
and the comments to the news stories. You heard all

855
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.199
this evidence. You had the opportunity to judge the credibility

856
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:18.280
of each witness firsthand. Your opinion is the only opinion

857
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:23.360
that counts. The anonymous, uninformed opinions of others are completely irrelevant.

858
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:25.920
Though that was a very good statement, because it's true.

859
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:30.280
I think we always second guess a verdict of jury's opinion.

860
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.199
But they sat through eight weeks of testimony.

861
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:37.599
An appeal was immediately filed. After the verdict, Donna and

862
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:41.440
Gary approached Terry and Carrol Cooper, Brad's parents to offer

863
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:46.119
their condolences. The Cooper's reserved and quiet left without responding

864
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.239
to the Rence's kind gesture. Before leaving, Donna generously told

865
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:52.840
Carol to reach out so they could arrange a visit

866
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:54.320
for Bella and Katie.

867
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:56.800
That is really nice that they did that.

868
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:57.199
I know.

869
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.280
Gary and Donna addressed the media outside these quote, the

870
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:04.159
relief is palpable. Today. We feel that the love and

871
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.760
nurturing and care that we've given Bella and Katie has

872
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.639
been rewarded, and we're going to be blessed with being

873
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:13.159
able to continue the care for those wonderful children. The

874
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.159
tragedy is that you have two young lives that were wasted,

875
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:19.039
Nancy who was no longer with us, and Brad who

876
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:23.519
now faces an elongated period of incarcederation. And I just

877
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.719
feel sad for both of those. There's no particular joy

878
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.920
in either of those for us, Donna said, quote, I

879
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.400
just felt her presence. I was happy that this day

880
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.440
finally came. I am happy for the little girls and

881
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:40.360
happy for our family. Gary continued, We as a family,

882
00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.000
I think a long time ago made up our mind

883
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:46.360
that we would not deal with ourselves as victims, but

884
00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:49.519
rather deal with ourselves as survivors. We're going to go

885
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:51.880
home and pick up our lives. It's been a long

886
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:52.679
run for us.

887
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:55.239
Really do seem like a lovely family.

888
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.960
Yeah, they really do. Do you have reasonable doubt as

889
00:46:58.000 --> 00:46:59.239
to Brad's guilt.

890
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:01.280
Based on what I've I've heard so far, I would

891
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:02.000
say no, I don't.

892
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.719
Okay, let's go over the evidence one more time. First,

893
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.280
we'll go with the exculpatory evidence. There is a lack

894
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:11.840
of physical evidence linking Brad to the crime scene. Right,

895
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.880
but Nancy was strangled, and I think when that happens,

896
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:20.000
there is little evidence that's left behind. Right, There's no blood,

897
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:22.559
there was no sign of a struggle in the home,

898
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.679
although Brad did have time to clean up. Right. Yeah,

899
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.679
the GPS map controversy. The defense argued that the laptop

900
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:32.679
used to make this search had been in police custody

901
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:35.599
and the file could have been altered or planted.

902
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:37.400
That seems like a real long shot to me.

903
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.280
Will be the sheriff or whoever said we don't know

904
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:41.800
how to do that?

905
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:45.159
I know they actually they accidentally deleted a BlackBerry. I

906
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:47.039
don't get the sense that they're the most technically.

907
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:51.880
Did they accidentally deleted the that's the accusation. Sure, But

908
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.079
also if they were going to plant evidence, wouldn't they

909
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:58.199
plant more damning evidence than just you know, this file that.

910
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.360
Was pretty damning. But yeah, I would think they would

911
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:01.039
do other things.

912
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:04.519
Yeah, police were accused of tunnel vision not following up

913
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.679
on other potential leads. But the only other lead was

914
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.639
really there were a few people that thought that they

915
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.360
could have seen Nancy. But again, like you pointed out,

916
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:17.320
it's like Lacy Peterson, Nancy was well known in the community,

917
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:20.559
and no one that knew Nancy saw Nancy. People that

918
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:23.239
didn't know Nancy said, well, I saw a woman that

919
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.039
looked like Nancy.

920
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.440
Yeah, and it's sound like the other possible suspect, the

921
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:30.960
guy that she apparently had a fling with, he had

922
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.360
an alibi as well, right, and they checked that out,

923
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:34.960
so it's not like they ignored it.

924
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:38.199
Yeah, and I forgot to mention it. But he had

925
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:42.280
the morning of July twelfth, he was with his children,

926
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.519
but the night before he was with the woman that

927
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:48.880
Brad had the affair with, Heather Mature.

928
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.280
So John Pearson that was his name, right, the guy

929
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:56.280
that Nancy had a fling with allegedly, Yeah, he was

930
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.159
with Heather. He was with Heather in a romantic way

931
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:00.119
or just they happened.

932
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:02.440
To Oh I think it was a well romantic way. Yeah.

933
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:05.719
Wow. The town of Carrie, North Carolina, is just a

934
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.880
hotbed of stuff going.

935
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.000
On, right exactly, And you could question what the motive was.

936
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.079
It seems pretty clear, but Brad really had no history

937
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:19.800
of physical violence. But we've seen that before too in short,

938
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:23.000
the reasonable doubt arose from the lack of direct evidence,

939
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:29.559
questionable digital evidence, potential police misconduct, and plausible alternative explanations.

940
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.119
Even though Brad was convicted in twenty eleven, these lingering

941
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.840
doubts are part of why some still believe that he

942
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.880
may have been wrongfully convicted.

943
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.400
This case is very similar to the case I am

944
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:42.800
currently working out that we are going to record after

945
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:45.599
we get back from vacation. But to me, you know,

946
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:48.639
the bottom line is you can have a circumstantial case

947
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:52.639
that doesn't have direct forensic evidence tying someone to the

948
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:56.039
crime scene or the victim and still have a strong case.

949
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.440
And to me, this still seems like a strong case.

950
00:49:58.480 --> 00:49:59.639
But I know you're going to go over.

951
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:02.960
Let's go over the inculpatory evidence real quick. So remember

952
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:06.599
that Nancy's blood alcohol level was point zero six, which

953
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:09.679
to me seems like it's too high for her to

954
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:11.360
wake them and say, yeah, I'm going to go for

955
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.719
a run today. And Brad did lie about her going

956
00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:17.360
for a run with her friend. The cleaning of his

957
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:21.360
trunk and certain areas of the house was a little suspicious. Yeah,

958
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.920
her sports prop pulled up over her breast to me,

959
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.480
seemed like he was trying to dress her and just

960
00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:30.000
kind of gave up. Right, He was very controlling in

961
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:34.159
a lot of ways. He washed Nancy's dress. The Google

962
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.320
map search, if you're to believe that he actually did

963
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:40.000
it Google map search, to me, is a little suspect

964
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:43.599
because he only did it for like forty five seconds.

965
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.199
How long would you need to do a search like that, really?

966
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.079
I mean, yeah, maybe I would think it would take

967
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:53.400
a few minutes to zero in on the area. Yeah,

968
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:58.880
maybe Brad didn't really cooperate with the investigation. And Nancy's

969
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.239
shoes were the house where she had two pairs of shoes.

970
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:05.719
The case, in my opinion, hate hinges on whether or

971
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.400
not Nancy went for a run, and again, in my opinion,

972
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.400
I don't think that she went for a run. Again,

973
00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:15.760
to me, the most damning pieces of evidence are her

974
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:19.159
blood alcohol level and the two pairs of shoes that

975
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:19.960
were at her house.

976
00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:22.360
Well and the fact that Brad said she went for

977
00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:26.360
a run with Carrie and Carrie said no, I never

978
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:27.079
went for a run.

979
00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:30.400
Like they maybe could have gotten their wires crossed. I mean,

980
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:32.400
they weren't getting a lawng grade. It's not they had

981
00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.000
you know, these huge conversations every morning. Well, tell me

982
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.239
what you have planned for today, you know, probably terse

983
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.320
you know, right on the knee to.

984
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:41.920
Know basis, Yeah, I suppose so.

985
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:45.280
Brad's appeal argued that he had not received a fair trial,

986
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.679
primarily because the judge excluded key defense witnesses who could

987
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.719
have testified about the possibility that his laptop had been

988
00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:56.920
tampered with. The defense suggested that the incriminated Google searches

989
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.760
could have been planted, potentially by law enforcement, the FBI,

990
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:06.119
or even a former vindictive lover. Expert witness testimony supporting

991
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:09.199
this theory was not permitted by the judge during the trial.

992
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:12.960
In April twenty thirteen, oral arguments were heard by a

993
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:16.519
three judge panel to grant Brad Cooper a new trial.

994
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.559
Five months later, the appellate court released their ruling. Their

995
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:24.039
decision read quote. The Google Maps files recovered from the

996
00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:28.199
defendant's laptop were perhaps the most important evidence admitted in

997
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:32.199
this trial. We hold that the court abused its discretion

998
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:35.559
in excluding Ward from testifying. That's the person who is

999
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:38.599
going to testify, relying on the state's own evidence to

1000
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.280
his opinion that the Google Maps files recovered from the

1001
00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:45.920
defendant's laptop had been tampered with. By unanimous decision, his

1002
00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:49.480
conviction was overturned and Brad was granted a new trial

1003
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:54.280
based on Judge Guestner's limiting expert testimony in the first trial.

1004
00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:57.159
Oh well, as much as I believe that Brad is guilty,

1005
00:52:57.280 --> 00:52:59.719
I can't disagree with that. Like if he didn't allow

1006
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:02.920
an expert witness to refute the most important evidence in

1007
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:04.360
the trial, that seems wrong.

1008
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.519
I agree completely. You know when an expert witness will

1009
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:11.719
get on the stand sometimes and they'll go over their

1010
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:15.039
resume and then the judge can decide whether they're an

1011
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:18.079
expert or not. In this case, the judge didn't allow that.

1012
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:22.119
On January thirtieth, twenty fourteen, five and a half years

1013
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.000
after Nancy's murder, Brad once again appeared in a Wake

1014
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.800
County courtroom at a pre trial hearing, looking softer, grayer

1015
00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:31.599
and balding. On September eighth, as a new trial was

1016
00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:36.239
set to begin, Brad Cooper pleaded guilty to second to murder.

1017
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:40.679
What he would serve twelve to fifteen years, including time served,

1018
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:44.039
and give up parental rights to his honors permanently.

1019
00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:44.960
I am shocked.

1020
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:47.559
Yeah, the Rentz family was okay with the plea deal

1021
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:50.360
if it meant that Brad would accept responsibility and Bella

1022
00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:54.119
and Katie could finally be legally adopted by Krista and Jim.

1023
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:58.679
Judge Gessner asked Brad, quote, do you personally plead guilty

1024
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:02.360
to the charge that I have doned? Brad replied yes,

1025
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:05.599
Did you in fact kill Nancy Cooper and dump her

1026
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:10.079
body on Fielding Drive? Brad paused yes, The judge said,

1027
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:12.719
in reference to Brad allowing his children to be adopted

1028
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.639
by Krista and Jim in return for a shorter sentence,

1029
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:18.960
It just bothers me that you have an individual who

1030
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:22.960
will apparently bargain away their rights as a parent. I

1031
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:24.480
find that repulsive.

1032
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:25.920
That is pretty repulsive.

1033
00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:28.760
I'm just glad that the girls could finally be adopted

1034
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.360
and be done with Brad and move on with their lives.

1035
00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:32.320
Yeah. Absolutely.

1036
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:35.719
Nancy was a loving mother, daughter, sister, and twin. She

1037
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:38.199
was a runner and a coach. She loved to help

1038
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:41.519
others meet their fitness goals. She made friends wherever she went.

1039
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:45.519
Her superpower was her ability to make other people laugh, smile,

1040
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:49.840
and feel comfortable. Rest in Peace Nancy. After Nancy's death,

1041
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:52.079
many of her friends and family in Canada and the

1042
00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:55.599
US began noticing butterflies. They were removed to start a

1043
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:59.119
foundation called a Butterfly Fund, helping other women in dangerous

1044
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:02.239
or volatile marria. They organized a gala and a run

1045
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:05.639
in Nancy's honor in hopes of saving other women. The

1046
00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:09.280
fund is no longer active. There is another organization in

1047
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:13.519
the community called Interact of Wake County. We will donate

1048
00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.599
to in honor of Michelle Young and Nancy Cooper. In

1049
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:20.960
November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's death, Brad Cooper

1050
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:25.119
was released from Mountain View Correctional Facility in Spruce Behind,

1051
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:29.599
North Carolina. He was deported back to Canada. Wow, not shocking.

1052
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:32.159
I'm going to end with the words of Amanda Lamb,

1053
00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:35.000
who wrote my main source for this case, Love Lies,

1054
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:37.280
a true story of marriage and murder in the suburbs.

1055
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.360
Happy was definitely not the word to describe the ending

1056
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.679
to this story. It's a cautionary tale, a tragic tale,

1057
00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:46.599
a tale that leaves more questions than answers. It's a

1058
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:49.760
trail of broken hearts and a litany of secrets. Only

1059
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.920
two people know the truth. One is dead and the

1060
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:55.280
other won't gamble his silence for freedom.

1061
00:55:55.800 --> 00:55:58.000
It is a really tragic tale, and I'm not so

1062
00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:00.760
sure that justice was served in the case with the

1063
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:02.599
amount of time that he spent in prison.

1064
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:03.239
Twelve years.

1065
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:05.480
Yeah, it's really not enough.

1066
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.119
There are no winners when it comes to domestic violence.

1067
00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:10.719
Even when a victim finds the strength to leave, the

1068
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.119
emotional and psychological scars remain, often lasting a lifetime, not

1069
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.679
just for them, but for their children as well. We

1070
00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:19.960
need to do more to educate people about the warning

1071
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:23.400
signs early on, before control becomes abuse and love turns

1072
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.880
to fear. Too often, innocence is lost and childhoods are

1073
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:31.079
stolen in the silence. Awareness is the first step towards prevention.

1074
00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:33.159
Very well said, do.

1075
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:34.440
You believe that Brad is guilty?

1076
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:35.920
I do, yes, Yes.

1077
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:38.159
Do you think that he served enough time?

1078
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:41.280
No? Absolutely not. I mean that was the no, I

1079
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:43.480
mean yeah, that was the deal that he got though, right,

1080
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:46.440
it was he was released because he served the time

1081
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:50.039
that he agreed they both agreed to. Yeah, but not enough.

1082
00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:53.480
What do you think was the motivation for the prosecution

1083
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:54.960
to make the deal? I mean, I kind of know

1084
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:58.039
Brad's motivation for taking the deal because he had been

1085
00:56:58.039 --> 00:57:00.920
found guilty once before and he probably expected to be

1086
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.119
found guilty again. But why do you think the prosecution

1087
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:03.760
offered that.

1088
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:06.880
I think their primary objective was if he was willing

1089
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:11.360
to admit guilt and Bella and Katie would be able

1090
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:14.639
to be adopted and move on with their life. Yeah,

1091
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:16.440
that was their objective, right, and.

1092
00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.440
That makes sense. But I also have to wonder if

1093
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:22.800
they felt like their case wasn't as strong as it

1094
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.639
needed to be a lot of times when it was

1095
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:27.880
not a slam dunk. Yeah, so they were probably a

1096
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.760
little bit worried that they wouldn't win.

1097
00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:32.199
I almost forgot. We have a clip of Krista talking

1098
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:33.760
about the girls. Do you want to play that real quick?

1099
00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:41.719
They're doing good. They they know, they know what happened.

1100
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:47.639
But with Nancy Bella especially, and it destroyed her for

1101
00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:52.039
many years and she's she's gotten over it, she's moved

1102
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:59.400
past thankfully. I've got amazing family to help and they

1103
00:57:59.440 --> 00:57:59.960
got through it.

1104
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:02.719
Does this mean now that their dads out of their

1105
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:03.400
lives forever?

1106
00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:07.239
Yes, it's amazing.

1107
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:09.079
It's total relief.

1108
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:16.880
He doesn't deserve them, he doesn't deserve to know them.

1109
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:20.239
I'm going to get emotional talking about this, but there

1110
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:24.360
was a beauty to Christa ending up with her sister's

1111
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:28.559
kids when she couldn't have kids, and being her identical twin.

1112
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:31.320
I just thought that was, you know, as sad as

1113
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:34.840
it is, it's really lovely that they were raised by

1114
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:35.360
their aunts.

1115
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:38.400
It is a little bit of like poetic justice in

1116
00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:40.280
some ways. Do we know? What do you know when

1117
00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:42.599
that clip was from? It sounds like it was from.

1118
00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:45.840
I think it was from years ago. I did see

1119
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:47.920
pictures of the girls, and all I'm going to say

1120
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:51.360
is they're stunning, and they seem happy, healthy, and they

1121
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.760
both seem to be very athletic like their mom.

1122
00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:55.719
Yeah, it's how old are they at this point?

1123
00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:58.960
Their college age? It seemed like there was a lot

1124
00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:02.840
of activity in the neighborhood that the Coopers lived in.

1125
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:04.880
What do you mean by activity.

1126
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:06.599
Since this case? And I don't know if it has

1127
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:08.880
anything to do with affairs, but I think at least

1128
00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:12.800
two of the friends that Nancy had have divorced as well.

1129
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:15.119
It just seemed like there was a lot of affairs

1130
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:16.840
going on, a lot of people sleeping together.

1131
00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:18.519
Yeah, it seems like that, and the fact that you

1132
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:21.800
pointed out the guy that Nancy apparently had a fling

1133
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:25.360
with was seeing the woman that Brad had a fling

1134
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.239
with too. It's just, yeah, it's a lot going on there.

1135
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:37.760
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm slamming my laptop shot and we

1136
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:41.159
are officially on vacation. You have another day at work, but.

1137
00:59:41.159 --> 00:59:43.920
Yeah, pretty close. I am very excited about that.

1138
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:48.559
I am wondering how being a true crime podcaster has

1139
00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:51.960
changed you. Do you look at people's relationships differently.

1140
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:55.960
I don't know if I look at people's relationships differently,

1141
00:59:56.039 --> 01:00:01.239
but I do think about the possibilities of occurring, Yeah,

1142
01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:03.920
in relationships more than I used to. I think I'm

1143
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:07.599
more aware of the potential of violence and things like that.

1144
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:11.000
Yeah, I agree, that's what I feel. The same way.

1145
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:14.239
Like all these unassuming guys that just seem like normal

1146
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:17.360
guys that you work with or whatever. That they're capable

1147
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:20.320
of killing their wives is kind of shocking to me.

1148
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:21.159
Yeah, it really.

1149
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:24.119
It's not like it's common, but we make it seem

1150
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:26.320
like it's common because we tell a story every week.

1151
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:29.239
I mean, it's common enough. It's more common than it

1152
01:00:29.360 --> 01:00:31.880
should be, for sure. But yeah, part of it is,

1153
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:34.199
I think because we talk about it so much, we're

1154
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:36.920
you know, it's like when you see a yellow car,

1155
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:39.360
then all of a sudden, you start seeing yellow cars everywhere.

1156
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:43.119
Right, Well, I hope we play the yellow car.

1157
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:46.280
Game, Banana. That's great.

1158
01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:48.039
We used to do when our kids are little. Now

1159
01:00:48.039 --> 01:00:50.639
it really anoys them, but once in a while, randomly

1160
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:52.079
when we're driving, Elsie Banana.

1161
01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:52.559
Yeah.

1162
01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:52.920
Yeah.

1163
01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.199
I think. The other thing for me is I have

1164
01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.119
become a little desensitized to things that should really disturb me.

1165
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:05.119
They still disturb me, but I'm less inclined to.

1166
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:09.400
Get like humans are capable of really horrible behavior.

1167
01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:12.000
Yeah, it really is. And there was I was looking

1168
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.360
at a there's a book. It's like I can'mer what

1169
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:16.719
it's called, but it's like the it's like the police

1170
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:21.639
Manual for homicide Investigation. It's like the most well respected manual.

1171
01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:24.039
And I happened to download it because I wanted to

1172
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:26.400
look up at a couple of things about police procedure

1173
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:28.559
and things like that. And there are the most horrible

1174
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:31.800
photos in this book. And yeah, they disturbed me, but

1175
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:34.599
they didn't. It wasn't as disturbing as it should have

1176
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:37.039
been to me. And that bothered me actually, that I

1177
01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:39.559
was like, oh, this should really be like I should

1178
01:01:39.559 --> 01:01:42.440
be putting this book down and not looking at this

1179
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:44.079
because it was not good.

1180
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:46.440
I still tried carefully. I don't like to see autopsy

1181
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:49.440
photos or crime scene photos. Yeah, I think they're still

1182
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.360
pretty disturbing to me. I'm a pretty humble person. But

1183
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:54.079
last night I had a personal win that I want

1184
01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:57.519
to share with everyone. I had my three hundred Peloton hide.

1185
01:01:57.679 --> 01:01:59.880
Wow. Three hundred that's really good.

1186
01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:02.840
Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy. But it's not as

1187
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:05.119
impressive as it sounds, honestly, because a lot of times

1188
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.440
I'll do two rides and some of them are like

1189
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:09.880
five minute cool down rides.

1190
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:10.880
I think it's impressied.

1191
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.239
Yeah, I was really happy, and I beat my record

1192
01:02:13.280 --> 01:02:17.159
by like sixteen points, which almost literally killed me. But

1193
01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:19.320
I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. But

1194
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:21.360
if you're thinking about getting a peloton, this is not

1195
01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:24.920
an ad I wish it were. But I've had a

1196
01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:25.760
lot of fun with it.

1197
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:27.880
Yeah, I have not a lot of fun with.

1198
01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:29.639
It, but it's a great way to work out.

1199
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:33.159
I've not been quite as diligent as you.

1200
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:34.400
Even nowhere near as diligent.

1201
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.280
As but I think I'm about halfway, maybe not quite.

1202
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:39.639
Yeah, but you're you're yeah, Yeah, I'm trying.

1203
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:41.440
But I enjoy it. I really do like it. I

1204
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:43.239
just need to like make time for it.

1205
01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:45.639
Yeah, if you have any questions about it, feel free

1206
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:49.119
to ask us. But yeah, that was I think. I

1207
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.599
am twenty six weeks in a row of working out

1208
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:54.159
three or more days, so that also is like kind

1209
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:55.039
of a big deal for me.

1210
01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.960
Yeah, I'm using congratulations, thank you. I am also a

1211
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:02.880
humble person. I am the most humble person that you

1212
01:03:02.920 --> 01:03:04.480
would probably have ever met.

1213
01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:08.760
We all know that. I just want to ask, Well,

1214
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:10.880
it's funny because you'd like to tell us all how

1215
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:13.239
intelligent you are all the time. And that is a

1216
01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:17.079
characteristic of a lot of men who murder. Is you know,

1217
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:20.000
men that think they're very smart and they can outsmart

1218
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:22.280
the police. And I know you well enough to know

1219
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:24.800
that you think about things like this all the time,

1220
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:27.159
and you were pretty sure that you could get away

1221
01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:28.159
with the perfect murder.

1222
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:33.360
I could totally I am joking. I know I'm not.

1223
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:35.639
That's not the case at all. I don't like to

1224
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:37.599
talk about how smart I am. You're the one who

1225
01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:38.599
always brings.

1226
01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:40.239
It up because I like to roast you and I

1227
01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:41.360
try to keep you home.

1228
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:42.599
You certainly do.

1229
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:45.039
I'm sorry I forgot to mention this when we were

1230
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:46.840
talking about the case and we try to end on

1231
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:50.039
something that is not the case. But I did want to.

1232
01:03:50.119 --> 01:03:53.280
I mentioned this my Amanda Lamb source, but there was

1233
01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:56.119
another source that I read. I didn't read the whole thing.

1234
01:03:56.239 --> 01:03:57.960
I couldn't get through much of it because it was

1235
01:03:58.039 --> 01:04:02.719
so one sided. Framed and examination of the Nancy Cooper

1236
01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:06.760
murder case by Lynn Blanchard. She also wrote a book

1237
01:04:06.800 --> 01:04:10.599
about Michelle Young that was very similar. She defended Jason

1238
01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:15.199
Young and in her book she also defends Brad Cooper.

1239
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:17.320
So I think she must have lived in the area

1240
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:19.440
and she was just really consumed with these cases. But

1241
01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:21.480
it was so one sided. It just kind of.

1242
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:24.360
Drives me crazy. Yeah, some people just want they just

1243
01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:27.679
want to take a contrary view and be well contra I.

1244
01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:30.239
Think she believes what she's saying, really, but.

1245
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:33.519
Yeah, just hard to imagine believing that.

1246
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:36.079
But well, thank you so much for listening.

1247
01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:38.920
Yes, thank you very much. We appreciate each and every

1248
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:42.760
one of you. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find

1249
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.559
us on social media and YouTube, or send us an

1250
01:04:45.559 --> 01:04:49.719
email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Please consider supporting

1251
01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:53.119
us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill. We have one

1252
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:56.159
tier five dollars a month for early ad free access

1253
01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.280
and a monthly bonus episode until next time.

1254
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:41.079
Don't Kill your Wife and Don't Kill Your Husband.

1255
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:49.679
In November twenty twenty, twelve years after Nancy's murder, Rad

1256
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:57.320
Cooper was released from Mountain Dew, Mountain yah it.

1257
01:05:57.679 --> 01:05:58.119
That was good.

1258
01:05:58.239 --> 01:05:58.760
That's funny.