Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's. That some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm fabulous? How are you? You are not fabulous? Someone is a little grumpy. Today, a little grumpy. And I don't know why. You're just always so even.

0:41 You are literally the most even tempered person in the universe. And it's just kind of cute when you're grumpy. I don't know why you're. Laughing at my grumpiness, wow. Just because it's so atypical. You don't like mean grumpy. You're just kind of like, I'm grumpy, and I don't know why. I would say I'm irritable. Yeah, okay, I'm a little irritable today. Everyone has off days. You don't have money. I should write it on my calendar. I think you literally have like one and a half grumpy days and here and that's about it. I think a little more than that. No, you're you're very pleasant, not not like your wife. You're pleasant. The audience. You just roll up Designsam me, how dare you sorry?

1:22 That's my irritability show. Do you want to tell us why you're grumpy? Oh, there's there's a multitude of reasons. Tick one. While the Tigers, that's one. Stupid Detroit Tigers lost their game to the Cleveland Guardians today and they're probably gonna lose tomorrow. Chance have a chance tomorrow. Yeah, but they're just they look terrible. I'm sorry. Okay, did you put money on them at the beginning of the season. No, I should have. No, I shouldn't have. I guess I'm glad I didn't. Actually, I learned a new term yesterday when I was listening to a different podcast. I've never heard this term before. But we're really, really, really really bad at this as demonstrated by the conversation that we just had about the Tigers called evergreen. Do you know what that means?

2:06 The tree kind of a tree. It's content that the remains relevant, fresh, and popular over an extended period, regardless of changing trends onlike content that fades quickly after a viral moment or current event. I think the Tigers will continue to be bad on an evergreens basis. Well, the seasons could be over. I know what you're saying. You know, it makes that makes sense where we are not good. At that moving on. Today's case has some sibling rivalry in it, and I'm wondering we both have several siblings, and I'm wondering if you have ever felt a sibling rivalry. I don't think there was a lot. You're the youngest of four. So we had, you know, I had two older brothers and then they were you know, of a particular age, and then there was a gap, and then there was my sister and I, and so I always felt like my sister and I were closer, you know, in age, but we didn't have I wouldn't say we had a lot of rivalry.

2:56 Now it cracks me because you, you know, I always say how nice you are. You are really nice person, but you are kind of a brady little brother to your sister, and it cracks me up. Like the other day, I was texting with your sister and you said, I can't remember what you said, but it was. I suggested that maybe my sister was responsible for breaking up Keith and Nicole Kivgan's marriage. Well, probably giving more details than your sister would like us to give. But she's always had a crush on Keith Urban and when his marriage ended, yeah, we were like, hmmm, yeah, you know what I think about this, But yeah, you guys get along pretty well, and uh, how about you. I don't really feel so. I'm the second oldest of four, so kind of like your family too. There was kind of like the too older and then there was a gap and then there's two younger, and yeah, I would say the two younger are probably you know, they have more in common. And yeah, yeah, I don't think there's a lot of sibling rivalry, but there is in this case.

3:55 In part one, we're going to focus on one brother and in part two we're going to focus a little bit more on the other brother, but they did have a lot of sibling rivalry. We're recording on October first, which is our official birthday for love Mary Cale. We mentioned this on the last episode. The only reason I'm mentioning it today is because I wanted to say thank you to everyone who wished us well and you know, congratulate us and just the support has been really overwhelming. We appreciate it, we do. And I did bring you a snack much if you're going to love this. You're really hungry, Okay, I'm irritable, so don't do this is better be good. I think September was the warmest September I ever remember here in Michigan. What do you think?

4:37 Yes, for sure, we've. Been craving fall things, but it's still been really warm. We're both still wearing shorts and wearing white shorts because I'm a rebel, like if it's eighty degrees, I should still be able to wear white, right. Sure. Anyway, I made you Sally's apple spiced apple bread. Okay, our friend Teresa recommended it. I think you're going to like it. I'm not sure if you're going to love it. I didn't use all of you don't love spice like this right and stuff like that, But yeah, I used mostly cinnamon. I did use a little nutmeg, but I didn't use the annis and the other things. So, and it's got some icing on the top, like a reduced apple cider, and you add some talking and sugar. All right, what did you think of Sally's Spiced apple bread.

5:26 It was pretty good. There was definitely a little I'm glad you made the changes you did because it was borderline on the spice. You probably should not have added the nutmeg. Yeah, but it was. It was. I didn't mind it too much. I didn't love the walnuts in. It, So that was met Sally. Okay, well you improved on one hand and you Yeah. I really like to add nods to any kind of quick bread. But yeah, I'm sorry, Okay. The rest by myself, No, it. Was pretty good. I would give it like a six out of ten. Six point five. Wow. I think i'd given an eight out of ten and maybe a nine out of ten tomorrow. I think it's one of those recipes that'll probably be better tomorrow. Yeah. Are you ready to dive into the case. I am, well, are you buckled in because this is a wild ride.

6:10 I am buckled in before we start. I do want to give a special thank you to everyone who has supported the new version of Love Mary Kill to just the fact version we've had really good feedback. It seems like people are really really enjoying that. Yeah, so thank you so much for your support. In November two thousand and three, Nancy Kissel, thirty nine, called her father, Ira Keishan, sixty, at his home in Chicago. Nancy, her husband Rob and their three children lived in Hong Kong. Her chest heaved with intense sobs, she could barely get the words out. She told her father that Rob forty, her husband of fourteen years, had beaten her severely, even breaking several of her ribs, after she had refused him sex. But that was three days ago, and she hadn't seen him since.

6:52 He hadn't showed up at his job at Merrill Lynch either, and that wasn't like him. His job was his life. Nancy didn't know what to do. Ira was confused. He didn't know his son in law to be a violent man. He thought of him like a son. As far as he knew. He'd never been abusive to Nancy before Ira booked the next flight to Hong Kong and rushed to O'Hare Airport the morning after Ibra arrived in Hong Kong. He took Nancy to file a police report against Rob for assault, as well as a missing person's report. Nancy was told that she needed to go to the hospital to be examined by a doctor to confirm her injuries before she could file the report. When they arrived at the hospital, there were several people queued before Nancy. She was not a person who liked to wait. After two hours, she grew impatient and they left the hospital. Nancy dropped Ira off at his hotel before she headed back to her apartment. At eleven pm that night, she awoke her father again with another frantic phone call. Come over right away, she screamed under the phone. The police are here, so many police. Robert Peter Kissel was born in nineteen sien sixty three in New York City to parents Elaine and William.

8:04 Rob grew up in Montvale, New Jersey, in an upscale, family friendly neighborhood. Bill Kissel, his father, graduated from Case Western Reserve University with a degree in chemistry in nineteen fifty one. He became very successful after he started a company, Sinfax that manufactured dry toner cartridges, beating Xerox at their own game. He was all business, all the time and ruthless. His wife, Eileen, was gentle, soft and warm, a stark contrast to his brusque personality. Elaine was the heart of the family, often stepping in to rain and Bill whenever he was overly harsh, a role she assumed more often than not. You gotta be ruthless in the printer toner game. It's a cutthroat business.

8:48 It does sound really impressive though, right, Like he developed this toner before Xerox did. He must have been, I mean super wealthy. Right, yeah. Together they had three children, Andrew in nineteen fifty nine, Robert or Rob in nineteen sixty three, and Jane in nineteen sixty eight. As the Kissel's fortune grew, they moved from the modest town of Woodcliffe Lake to a seven thy five hundred square foot mansion on two acres of land and the Upper Saddle River. Richard Nixon was a neighbor. On Halloween, Richard Nixon would pass out candy to the kids from his gate. That must be kind of a crazy childhood in wild The Kissels accumulated all the trappings of great wealth, a beautiful family home, a fleet of cars, a yacht, and a million dollar vacation home in Vermont on Stratton Mountain. Bill worked long hours, driven by relentless need to succeed, to crush and dominate his competition. For him and for his family, Failure simply wasn't an option, especially for his sons. Andy pushed back, rejecting the heavy mantle his father tried to drape over him. He wanted to do things his own way. When he was just nineteen, Andrew started his own auto parts business in part to avoid going to college. But Rob rose to meet his father's challenge. He carried the same fire, the same competitive edge, the same primal instincts that fueled his father. His grades weren't quite good enough for an ivy, but he settled for the University of Rochester and majored in engineering. He

10:19 graduated in nineteen eighty six and set his sights on the world of finance, where he knew he could make more money. Rob worked for Sinfax with his father for a year before he enrolled at NYU's Stern School of Business. After Eileen's death in nineteen eighty nine, the Kissel family gatherings became almost unbearable, riddle affairs laced with caustic remarks and simmering rivalries, often inflamed by alcohol and other substances. Bill, the domineering patriarch, was relentless in his expectations, driving his children with the belief that power and success were the only measure of worth, and in his eyes, success was defined not by happiness, integrity, or person fulfillment, but by money, lots of it. Jane, who many called the most sensible of the Kissels, bowed out of the family drama and moved across the country to Washington State with her new husband, Richard.

11:12 Rob's high school sweetheart, Carol Horton, remembered her time with him fondly. She told Forty eight Hours that he was the best looking guy in their class, sweet, gregarious, loving, and such a good guy. She said, I am so blessed for his life to have touched mine as it did. Whatever Rob did, he did well. Carol said that Rob and Andrew were like night and day. Rob's childhood friend Danny Williams, said that whenever they played monopoly, Rob was always the banker, and Andrew held the property deeds roles that would define them later in life. That's funny, and we'll. Talk about Andrew more later, but I'm sure that he definitely cheated monopoly. Competition between the brothers was steep. Even though Rob was four years younger, it was Andrew who had to work hard to keep up with his brother.

12:00 Rob was the smarter, more athletic, and better looking of the brothers. Andrew lacked the charisma that came natural to Rob. He spent much of his life trying to measure up to his brother, but always fell short. Literally, one brother was all about hard work and the other shortcuts. I know it sounds like I being a little mean to Andrew here, but just wait, okay. Nancy Anne Keishan was born in nineteen sixty four in Adrian, Michigan, to Jean and Ira Kishan. I always have to find a way to mention Michigan in every episode. It's kind of like an Easter eggus. Jean Stark met Ira Kishan at Grinnell College in Iowa. Jeane came from a wealthy Cincinnati family that owned and operated Lazarus Department Stores, founded in eighteen fifty one. Her ancestor, Fred Lazarus Junior, was even credited with convincing President Franklin Roosevelt to permanently fix Thanksgiving to the fourth Thursday of November, ensuring a clear and set start to the holiday shopping season. Lazarus was eventually absorbed into Macy's in two thousand and five. Jane was a freshman when she became pregnant by Ira, a sophomore in October nineteen sixty one. They quickly married. Trudy was the eldest, followed by Nancy two years later. My main source for this case was a book written by Joe McGinnis we'll talk about that at the end, called Never Enough, and he used pseudonyms, and there was not a lot of information about Nancy's sister. He called her Laura. I believe

13:30 her name was Trudy. It's possible that I have that wrong. Ira transferred to Michigan State University and earned a degree in restaurant and hotel management. After graduation, the couple moved to Cincinnati, where Ira began working in Jean's family business, focusing on revitalizing the department stores, seventy eight restaurants, and thirty two employee cafeterias. He later purchased the historic Cincinnati restaurant, The Real Cafe. In nineteen seventy five, Jane and Ira divorced a year later. He remarried in nineteen seventy eight to a woman named Joyce Jenkins. Irish sold his restaurant, The Wheal Cafe, and moved to Minneapolis and became concessions manager to the new Hubert h. Humphrey Metrodome. Jean and her daughters moved to Piedmont, California, near Berkeley, and adopted a hippie lifestyle, eschewing her family's wealth and status, but she was ill equipped to support herself and the girls, losing countless jobs. She lacked the talent to support her family as an artist, her preferred career. Like their mother, Trudy and Nancy drifted through those years without direction, experimenting with drugs and sex. It was the sixties, after all.

14:40 Trudy eventually moved out and married, while Nancy dabbled in art classes but never had the discipline to pursue a degree or develop her own portfolio. Nancy was strikingly beautiful, charming when it suited her, but often ill tempered and spoiled. She was accustomed to getting her way, and if she didn't, she simply walked away. She suggested that Nancy might be happier in a fresh environment and encouraged her to move to Minnesota to live with her father, his new wife, and her five year old brother Brooks. After suffering through a cold winter at the University of Minnesota, Nancy twenty transferred to the Parsons School of Design in New York in the fall of nineteen eighty four, she felt that she'd found her people among the like minded, artistic, beautiful, and fashionable New Yorkers. After a year, she dropped out and waitressed at a series of bars and restaurants. Without even trying. She landed a small role in Whole Metal Jacket and then a small role in a soap opera.

15:38 Nancy was driven those years by a heady mix of overconfidence, youth, and drugs. Do you know what her role in Full Metal Jacket was? That's such a gad movie. Yeah, it's not credited, so it might just be someone you know. In Watch the movie and find her. I don't know if I'd be able to recognize her. So. In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, before he began graduate school, Rob Kissel and his friend and Mike Paradise took a trip to Turks and Caicos. They stayed at a resort called Turquoise. Nancy Keishan and her friend Ali Gertz were also staying at the resort. Nancy was petite, blonde, flashy, and feisty. When Nancy and Rob met on a nude beach. There was an instant attraction. I bet you'd look great with clothes on, he said, It's really funny. They were immediately smitten with each other. Rob was attracted to Nancy's cool New York attitude, and she was attracted to his earning potential.

16:30 I'm a little mean to Nancy in this case took Rob was a very good looking guy, and I think she was attracted to him, but I think she did like the fact that he was an investment banker. Got it. By the time they returned to New York from vacation, Rob and Nancy were exclusively dating. A year later, Rob proposed and the couple moved in together. Bill Rob's father openly disapproved of Nancy, dismissing her for not having a degree from an Ivy League school and derisively referring to her as that waitress. Despite his disapproval, Rob and Nancy married in September nineteen eighty nine, Andrew, Rob's older brother, married Hailey Wolf, a beautiful Ivy League educated former competitive skier with a promising career of her own as a financial analyst. She often appeared on CNBC giving stock tips.

17:19 Coming from a wealthy and accomplished family. She earned Bill Kissel's respect and attention. Unlike Nancy, the former waitress. Marrying Haley was one way for Andrew to won up his brother. He was clearly punching above his weight. He really was. For some reasons, skiing was really important to the Kissels, and the fact that Haley was this great skier really made Bill happy. Skiing is important to like wealthy peoples a lot of times. Yeah we are not skiers, and no we're not. But Haley was Jane's ski coach for a while. That's how they met. Ali Gertz, Nancy's best friend and maid of honor, later became a fearless advocate for her AIDS awareness after being diagnosed at just twenty two. Ali was beautiful and came from a wealthy family. She became a face of the AIDS epidemic, interviewed by Barbara Walters, featured on the cover of People, and named Woman of the Year by Esquire.

18:15 She contracted the disease after her very first sexual encounter at sixteen, a one night stand. Determined that others learned from her story, Ali lectured people that anyone could contract AIDS if they had unprotected sex. She founded Love Heels, an organization dedicated to educating young people and supporting those abandoned by their families. Her story was later told in a TV movie starring Molly Ringwold. Ali passed away in nineteen ninety two at the age of twenty six. I watched a brief documentary about Ali on YouTube, and she's very inspiring. It's just such a sad, tragic story. Yeah. But at Nancy's nineteen eighty nine wedding, when Ali casually mentioned the multitude of pills she had to remember to take, Nancy lashed out at her. Just shut up, Alli, this is my day. Nobody wants to hear about your fucking pills. Seems a little harsh.

19:08 Yeah. The wedding and reception were held at the East River Yacht Club. Nancy and Rob made a striking couple, and by all accounts, the celebration was beautiful, but Nancy would later complain that Ali had ruined her day by stealing her spotlight. Guests were drawn to the courageous young woman, eager to hear her story and to offer her compassion. We'll be back after a break. While Rob finished business school at NYU, Nancy supported them financially. After graduation, Rob worked at an old school investment bank where he specialized in distressed debt also called volture investing.

19:50 Distressed debt investing is a way to profit from failure rather than success. The strategy works by buying the bonds of a bankrupt or a failing company for honeys on the dollar, then using that position to influence or force a reorganization. Instead of taking repayment in cash, investors exchange their bonds for shares in the newly reorganized company. If the turnaround succeeds, the stock value can skyrocket, multiplying their initial investment many times over. For those who play it well, the rewards can be enormous. I have to caution everyone, I am not an economist, and writing this with a little tricky because sometimes I'm like, I think this is right, but you know it's it's tricky. There's a lot of financial.

20:37 Yeah, I am also not an expert in the stock They're. Way closer than I am. But did that make sense to you? More or less? What's that one? The Wolf of Rall Street. Isn't that similar to what they did? Like buying like. Penny stocks penny stocks. Yeahkay. Investment bankers work punishingly long hours in a cutthroat, highly competitive environment. Their job is to literally make money at any cost to their personal life and well being. Rob, who was putting in one hundred hours a week at the office, said to friends, what good does it do to make ten million a year when the guy down the hall is making twenty? When the Asian markets closed, the New York markets opened, and the cycle began again. There was no pause, no rest, no chance to breathe.

21:19 If you were resting, you weren't making money. Does not sound like a lifestyle I would enjoy. No. Nancy and Rob lived in the Upper West Side of Manhattan in a small apartment. I looked up their old apartment building, and today I think they have two different floor plans. Nine hundred and fifty six square feet and the rent is eighty three hundred and fifty dollars a month, and for a sixteen hundred square foot apartment the rent is thirteen nine hundred and fifty dollars. After their first child was born, Elaine, they needed more space and moved to Greenwich Village. Nancy loved her baby, but she hadn't grown up with the best parenting role model. Even with friends and family, Nancy struggled to formed deep, lasting connections, and motherhood was no different. She found it difficult to shoulder the full weight of responsibility for another human being's life, and it was mundane. Nancy craved more excitement. In New York City. She quickly realized many mothers weren't the ones pushing the strollers to the park. Instead, they hired nannies to take their place. In the late nineteen eighties, Hong Kong was a magnet for ambitious bankers like Rob Kissel.

22:26 The world of finance was coming to understand the benefits of the global marketplace. Hong Kong had just been handed back to China, but its identity as a global financial hub was only growing stronger. Skyscrapers glittered over Victoria Harbor, filled with foreign banks and investment firms eager to tap into Asia's exploding markets. It was the gateway to China, an economy just beginning to open up to the world, and Hong Kong offered a unique blend of East and West, with low taxes, minimal regulation, and a promise of enormous profits. Even the turbulence of the Asian financial crisis in nineteen ninety seven and ninety eight didn't diminish its allure. If anything, the volatility created opportunities for those willing to take risks.

23:11 For rob moving to Hong Kong meant being at the center of fast moving money and high stake steals. For Nancy, it meant a glamorous new life in one of the world's most cosmopolitan cities, with a vivacious expatriate community who lived in luxury high rises, employed living domestic help, and sent their children to impressive international schools. Hong Kong wasn't just a career move. It was an adventure, and for a young family like the Kissels, it promised the best of everything. The Chinese government allowed Hong Kong's rampant capitalism to flourish without feeling as though they were desecrating Mao's legacy of strict control. Daily life was fast paced and crowded, filled with neon signs, dim sum houses, and a thriving pop culture scene led by Hong Kong cinema and cantopop.

24:00 Overpopulation of Hong Kong has led to extreme air pollution that peaked in early two thousand it has improved, but PM two point five and PM ten remain nearly three times the level recommended by the WHO. PM means particulate matter, and there's different kinds of particulate matter. Actually, today I was looking at like a geographical map of the entire world, and I guess I didn't realize that Asia is really very polluted. Like if you look at you know, like Europe and the United States and Canada, and they're all green, but most of Asia is, you know, still suffering from severe air pollution. Yeah, that's too bad.

24:41 Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated places on Earth, with an average of about seventeen four hundred people per square mile, higher than cities like New York or London. In some districts. In Kowloon, for example, that number source to over three hundred and ten thousand people per square mile, making daily life feel compressed into high rise towers and crowded streets. Even compared to Manhattan, which has around seventy thousand people per square mile. Hong Kong's density is staggering and shapes nearly every aspect of life, from housing to transportation to access to open space. I can't even imagine. What do you think our population density it was if.

25:22 You have it twelve people per square mile or something like that. It's more than that, but it is kind of shocking. Yes, I'm sorry that I went on so long about Hong Kong, but I think it's really interesting. Well, I think it's interesting too, and I think it paints a really good picture of what their life must have been. Right, and just the culture shock from going to you know, they lived in well, they did live in New York City, but they also had a place in Vermont. But yeah, I don't think it even compared. No, because the population density is so high. There are no houses like flat houses. You know, everything is built upright, And to me, that's just so hard to picture. It would have been to cities before, but here, you know, everyone has a house, right, It's just very different. Yes. In the nineteen nineties, Goldman Sachs was the number one investment bank in the world. When Rob Kissel was offered a job in Hong Kong, he jumped at the chance to get in on the emerging market. They only send winners.

26:13 This means I'm on the fast track to make partner. Hong Kong is the key to the mint. He told his friends. His ultimate dream was to make partner at Goldman, and moving to Asia increased his odds dramatically. Just give me three years. Rob pleaded with Nancy and moving to Hong Kong had the added bonus of bowing out of the Kissel family drama for a few years. In June nineteen ninety seven, the Kissel settled into Park View, a thirty five hundred square foot luxury apartment costing twenty thousand dollars a month. The complex was home to many wealthy expatriots, offering both comfort and status, but the move came at a turbulent time. Just weeks before Britain handed Hong Kong back to China, tensions in the city were running high, and when the Asian currency crisis struck soon after, Rob saw not only risk but opportunity. Park was more like a vacation resort, with its abundance of amenities including luxury hotel, eight dining options, multiple tennis and squash courts, three swimming pools, and even two driving ranges. Residents had access to a three story health club staffed with trainers and nutritionists, along with a preschool, children's playground and daily supervised kids' activities.

27:26 But did they have a pickleball court? Well, I don't even know what squash is. Cultural and leisure offerings included a theater, art gallery, beauty salon, supermarket, landscaped formal gardens, and a lifestyle shop selling everything from paperweights to silk slippers embroidered with the Parkview logo. There was even a Roman path. So the complex was composed of eighteen towers, which were filled with investment bankers, attorneys and other high powered executives. The Kissels lived in Tower sixteen. There was a hierarchy to the tower. Well, sixteen was a fine tower. The most successful, most affluent people lived in towers seventeen and eighteen. If someone was floundering and not making their numbers, they'd be forced to move to a lower numbered tower.

28:12 But I just can't even imagine this life style, right. The Kissels hired to live in Nanny Connie and housekeeper men who were cousins. Nancy was left with little to do. Rob worked sixteen hours most days and traveled frequently across Asia. The Kissels joined the United Jewish Congregation and the yacht club, but Nancy grew bored and lonely. Though she lived a life of luxury with her favorite designer shops just fifteen minutes away, she was too afraid to drive the busy streets in Hong Kong at first. Eventually she navigated the tangled highways and traffic, immersing herself in the shopping and spending that gave her the most joy. I don't like to drive it at our. Can you imagine driving in Hong Kong?

28:54 No, I can't. I avoid driving in any foreign country that I can help it, but Hong Kong. She would be bananas. To outsiders, The couple seemed enviable, a perfect and polished image whenever they stepped out together, but behind closed doors their apartment was filled with rage and disappointment. About a year into their Hong Kong residency, Nancy's mother, Jean, came for a visit. Jean had recently lost half a lung to cancer and was still frail from the surgery. When one of the young children began to have a tantrum, Nancy called to Nanny to come take them away. Jean suggested that Nancy should be more hands on with the children. It might have struck a chord with Nancy because Rob constantly told her the same thing, that she needed to be more engaged with the children. She lashed out angrily and demanded Jean leave immediately. She pushed and shoved her mother out the door and then slammed.

29:45 It shut, and she didn't talk to her for years and years after that wow. In October nineteen ninety nine, Nancy and Rob welcomed their third child, a son named Rice. I don't think I mentioned the second child's name is June, so they have a lame June and okay. Rob was overjoyed, but Nancy sank into postpartum depression. At thirty five, She began to feel unattractive, convinced her best years were behind her, Although just months before Rice's birth, the Kissels had moved to the twenty second floor of Tower seventeen of Parkview. That's the good Tower, one of the good. Towers, one of the good towers. It's not eighteen, okay. Now living in the second most prestigious tower, Nancy took satisfaction and looking down on others, knowing that she had made it. In the spring of two thousand, as Nancy began house hunting in Connecticut, convinced their time in Asia was nearly over per her agreement with Rob, but he accepted a new position with Meryll Lynch as Asia Pacific Managing Director of Global Principal Investments, and they would need to extend their time in Asia.

30:45 Rob took this new job in part because, remember how much he wanted to make partner, it looked like he was not going to make partner at Goldman, so he took this job with Mary Lynch. But it was also an excellent job. To persuade Nancy to stay another three years, he struck a bargain with her. The couple loved skiing and owned a condo at Stratton Mountain in Vermont, where Rob and his family had gone since he was a child. Nancy envied Andrew and Hayley's home on the mountain. She agreed to remain in Asia on the condition that they purchased a two million dollar house in Stratton and set aside another one million dollars for renovations and decorating. Rob agreed.

31:26 Despite Nancy winning this battle. This was a turning point in the Kissel's marriage. A small seed of resentment that had been planted since their move to Hong Kong flowered into hatred. The sight of Rob and the sound of his voice began to turn her stomach. He badgered her constantly about spending time with the children and feeding them home cooked meals instead of taking them out for fast food. And then there was the constant battle over her excessive shopping and self indulgence. The marriage was in a slow descent toward irreparable fracture, a once happy union now defined by bitterness and animas more money and material goods couldn't fix their problems. Many years earlier, in nineteen sixty six, Jeanne and Ira, Nancy's parents, purchased a lead statuette of two little girls for his mother for Mother's Day. It was eight inches tall and very heavy, about eight pounds.

32:17 She cherished the piece as it reminded her of her two granddaughters. Nancy always loved the piece too. She shared a very special bond with her grandmother. When she passed away in two thousand and one. After the funeral, Nancy brought the treasured statue back with her to Hong Kong and placed it in her bedroom, a cherished memento of someone she deeply loved and missed. Why are you telling me about this statue right now? It seems like a superfluous detail, doesn't. It It does. Yeah. Finally, in two thousand and two, Nancy was feeling more comfortable in Hong Kong as the kids were getting older and were easier to manage. She started to volunteer at the Hong Kong International School. She was there so much she asked for her own parking space.

32:59 Anne got it. She organized parties, fundraisers, and spearheaded school beautification projects. She even began using the school's address to send and receive mail that she didn't want Rob to see. Nancy, the children, and Connie spent the summer of two thousand and two in New York. While Connie looked after the kids, Nancy filled her days with shopping. Briana O'shay, Nancy's childhood best friend, came to visit her for a few days in New York. During the visit, the two went to see Unfaithful, starring Richard Gear and Diane Lane. Do you remember this movie? Uh? Not really? No, So as homework for the podcast, I watched the movie the other day thoroughly enjoyed it. It's really good.

33:40 I recommend you go watch it if you haven't watched it. It's pretty good. It's very intense, some kind of like a little bit of a thriller. Fast forward probably thirty seconds if you don't want to hear about the movie and you'd rather watch it. But we're going to give just a brief little synopsis. In the film, Lane's character has an affair with a Frenchman who is very hands okay, and when her husband, played by Gear, hires a private investigator, the truth is confirmed to him in a series of damning photographs. Consumed with rage, Gear's character confronts the lover in his apartment and, in a fit of violence, kills him by bashing his head with a snow globe. The movie struck a chord with Nancy, so much so that she couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks afterward. This is all coming full circle with this statue that you mentioned.

34:27 Earlier, just putting things together. I know, I'm good. I just mentioned the statue because there was an important memento to Nancy got her grandmother. The frenchman in the film is very handsome. You said that already, apparently. But he's very handsome, and he's played by I believe his name is Oliver Martinez, who was married to Haley Berry and they had a very ugly divorce. Okay, sorry my pop culture knowledge, just I can't shut up. You find Richard Gear handsome? Yeah, definitely, but he's no Frenchman? Okay. Over the Christmas holiday that year, the entire Kissel family met at Whistler to ski together. Nancy was so checked out of the family's incessant arguing and one upsmanship that she and Rice flew back to Hong Kong several days early. Bill Kissel was furious, reminding Rob to keep his wife firmly in her place. In two thousand and three, Hong Kong was hit hard by the SARS epidemic. I forgot all about sorrows. COVID has just eclipsed every other epidemic from my brain.

35:29 They started in very similar ways. Yeah, Schools closed, businesses shuddered, and fear gripped the city. As hundreds fell ill and nearly three hundred people died. The economy took a sharp downturn, especially in real estate and tourism. Many expatriots, already unsettled by the outbreak, chose to leave Hong Kong altogether. For those who stayed, the sense of isolation and uncertainty only added to the pressures of daily life. Rob sent Nancy and the three children back to the US after he fell ill in Hong Kong, but no school in New York would allow Nancy to enroll the children. After their arrival from Hong Kong, Verma was more amenable, so they moved to the skihouse, even though it was still under renovation. Rob came to visit in April on the twenty first, his fortieth birthday. Nancy nor the kids acknowledged his birthday. That is sad. Rob returned to Hong Kong depressed and in pain. An old ski injury to his back was giving him problems again.

36:29 Soon after his return to China, Rob was offered a major promotion managing all of Asia's distressed debt investments. The job would require a move from Hong Kong to Tokyo, but Rob thought it would give him and Nancy a chance for a fresh start. We'll be back after a break. Rana, Nancy's childhood best friend, began noticing changes in Nancy's personality and a growing shift in her attitude towards since Bryce's birth. She seemed depressed and withdrawn. It surprised Brna when Rob called her seeking her advice on how to approach his crumbling marriage with Nancy and estates and Rob in Asia, he installed spyware on her computer. Not He also hired an ex cop turned PI named Frank Shay to trail Nancy. Frank's business, Alpha Group was thriving, even started getting international jobs working corporate investigations and computer forensics.

37:32 For twelve thousand, five hundred dollars a week plus expenses. Frank or one of his associates would follow Nancy and give a detailed report of her actions for the week. I'd do that for ten grand a week. That amount of money shocked me. That is shocking. Michael del Priori thirty nine, a twice divorced father of three and an audio visual technician, was hired by Rob to install a state of the art home theater in the Vermont Ski House. Rob was in Asia on the day of the installation, leaving Nancy to handle things. When Mike rang the doorbell, Nancy answered wearing short shorts and a tank top. Mike was a bulky guy who obviously hit the gym a few times a week, but he wasn't a good guy. He'd left his wife and two kids for an eighteen year old exotic dancer. When she became pregnant, he left her to pursue a relationship with a fifteen year old He was thirty oh. As Mike installed the sound system, Nancy kept him company. By the time he was finished, they'd arranged a playdate for their children.

38:34 By the end of the week, the private investigator confirmed to Rob that Nancy and Mike had met twice, each time for several hours. Rob had also intercepted a string of thirty emails between them, enough to remove any doubt about an affair. He thanked the investigator and said that that was all he needed. On Nancy's next date with Mike, he took her to get a tattoo three small Chinese characters inked on her left shoulder, each symbol representing one of her children's birth dates. She couldn't wait for Rob to see the new tattoo because she knew that he would hate it. I think that she had expressed interest in getting a tattoo before and Rob was like, Nope, you don't need one. Nancy and Mike quickly became inseparable, meeting almost every day and talking for hours on the phone in between rendezvous. But by late June, guilt and anxiety began to set in. Nancy tried to end the affair, only to fall into a cycle of breakups and reconciliations that repeated every few days for the remainder of the summer.

39:35 Years earlier, Rob had back surgery after suffering an injury while skiing in the summer of two thousand and two. He reinjured it while playing tennis. For weeks, he was laid up with nothing to do but obsess over Nancy and her new boyfriend. In July, he returned to the States to consult doctors. He told Nancy he had read some of her emails, claiming he'd only seen them because her computer had a virus, and then confronted her about Mike. She denied having an affair. They were just friends, she claimed. Rob asked her not to see him anymore. She promised not to. She had a lot to lose. Rob wasn't sure if he could trust her, so he called his friends at Alpha Group to surveil Nancy once again. She had more free time because the children were immersed in summer camps or in the care of the nanny. Nancy kept the private investigator Roco, busy checking into cheap motels with Mike, never the same one twice. Nancy enjoyed cosplaying her new role as the girlfriend of a blue collar worker.

40:33 Knowing she had her comfortable home and credit cards still at her disposal, she and Mike grew closer. She confided to him that Rob was abusive to her, both mentally and physically, even breaking her ribs. Nancy had never told anyone else in her life about the domestic violence she suffered. One days, when she didn't see Mike until the children were in bed, she filled the hours with endless shopping. Even Roco the PI was surprised that Nancy, in true shopaholic fashion, could find something to buy it at we store. It's just like you. I can never eat a stop shopping. He'll be at the gas station. I'll be like, well, I need to load up on none nor delicious. Rob told the PI to call him next time Mike was in the house so he could call and confront Nancy while he was still there. But when Rob tried to call, she wouldn't pick up. Eventually, Connie answered the phone and told Rob that she was asleep and not feeling well.

41:27 Moments later, the private investigator saw Mike's speed out of the driveway. The next day, Nancy and the children returned to Hong Kong. While they were en route, Rob took off his wedding ring and met with a divorce attorney. He still loved his wife and was devastated. Friends say that Rob even considered moving Mike to Hong Kong, even paying for the move as a compromise. Wow. I know that seems crazy, but I read it in two different places. Do seem crazy? But when Rob picked Nancy and the children up at the airport, everything seemed back to normal. Utter than normal. Actually, Rob felt hopeful about his marriage for the first time in a long time. Just a week later, Rob traveled to New York for back surgery, and Nancy would a long to support him and care for him after the operation.

42:14 Or did she? I don't know did she? Rob wrote the following in a rare moment of reflection days before he went to the hospital. I keep my ring in my pocket. By taking it off, I feel that I am emotionally protected against what I know and against how I feel. The reminders of our marriage are out of sight. Get out of sight reminds me to remember. She remember what got us here to where we are today. She remember never to forget, never to forget what we had, and never to forget that. One cannot just wear a ring. One has to work at it. The early years are easy and natural, the love and the fun. The later years, the kids are beautiful. Time is short, time is stretched, and something has to give. Do we see it? Do we hear it? Do we speak of it? Communication, remembrance of each other when we are together, what we love about each other, what we loved about each other, our time together, exploring each other. That's what gives. Fourteen years is a long time. Things get lost, people change, communication is gone. Feelings are hurt. Sometimes the hurt is deep and painful. People go astray. The heart is so deep, the whole body weeps. The mind's eye likes to torture between images of someone else and images of our love, our beautiful past. But the love is stronger, The love is stronger. It felt right being back together. It's time to try and focus. Can we get back to it?

43:35 Can we find a new place. It will be work for us both. It is work to remember, work to be patient, work to change back to the way we started, and to find a new place. We had a love, a love through and through. We need to remember, we need to find. That's why I keep my ring in my pocket. Keeps me safe, It brings me love. So it seems that Rob was willing to forgive Nancy and wanted to move forward in their marriage. Here's another journal entry demonstrating his love for his wife. What a week. Even though it is terrible circumstances my operation, I feel like I am in love again. Nancy picked out some cologne for me at Bloomy's. She sleeps facing me, touches me, and holds my hand without me doing it first. She seems to care about what I'm doing versus not caring if I died. We call the kids together, wake, eat and sleep together. I love being together. It is as it was ten years ago. But my mind wanders back to what I know. I still don't trust that she is not writing letters or calling her lover when I am tied up with a doctor. What can I do?

44:37 I can only show my love the real sadness and emptiness is that I love her but may never trust her. It's the real philosopher, poet, introspection kind of guy, all of a sudden. Right, and an investment banker on top of that. Yeah, Rob was nervous that while he was recuperating in the hospital that Nancy would contact Mike. He reached out to Alpha Group again to arrange a tale for her, but Frank Shay talked him out of it. If you're going to stay in your marriage, you've got to trust her, he said. The surgery went well. Rob was planning on staying in New York for two weeks before returning to Hong Kong, but Nancy was headed back to be there for the children's first day of school. The day before she left for Asia, she snuck out of their hotel room to meet Mike. They went on a carriage ride around the city. Nancy even paid the driver to go around the Loop twice. She sobbed into Mike's arms, telling him how controlling an abusive Rob had been to her.

45:32 Nancy said Rob was an alcoholic and a drug abuser. When he was high or drunk, he forced himself on her. She couldn't live that way any longer, she told Mike. Mike told her to leave Rob, but Nancy said that she'd lose the children in a divorced settlement. They had sex in the stairway of the Pash Hotel, where Nancy and Rob were staying, before they parted ways. The day after Nancy was back in Hong Kong, she made the following Google searches sleeping pills, drug overdose, and medication causing heart attack. She also opened a bank account in her name only and began siphoning money from the joint account into her own. She purchased a secret cell phone just for calls to Mike. Her first call stretched to four hours, though later both would claim they couldn't remember what they'd talked about.

46:18 Nancy thought she was being meticulous in her planning, but she didn't realize that Rob had spyware on her laptop and he saw her Google searches. How scary that must have been for him. Oh, incredibly scary if you. See searches like that on my computer, though you know it's because I'm doing a true crime podcast. Of course, it would never harm you, right. Nancy visited a psychiatrist a few days later. She told the doctor that she was in an abusive marriage and was having trouble sleeping. He wrote her a prescription for ambient Rob had returned to Hong Kong. It was his habit each night before bed to have two fingers of scotch. When he noticed that it tasted peculiar, he didn't finish the drink, but when he stood up he felt woozy and nearly fell over. By this point, Rob was basically a detective. While Nancy slept, he rifled through her purse and found the prescription bottle and a love letter from Mike that was like a gut punch to Rob. It read another day down, another day closer to seeing you.

47:16 I am going crazy thinking about you. Whenever a customer comes in the store, I want to say, don't bother me. I am thinking about Nancy. I misholding you hearing your voice. I love it when you call my name. It makes me melt. Give me a bucket. He had been sending love letters to the children's school. Rob called his private investigator friend, Frank Shay, and asked him to see if Mike was still in the US. He was. Shay confirmed. Frank advised Rob to stop drinking the Scotch and to change his ten million dollar life insurance policy. If he were to die, Nancy would receive his entire estate, worth as much as twenty million dollars. He advised Rob to submit hair, blood, and urine samples along with some of his scotch to allow for drug testing, but Rob threw himself back into work, occupied with a huge one hundred million dollar deal. His new celebratory Porsche was also a distraction. When Frank reminded him days later, Rob promised he would take care of it, but he never sent the samples to the lab. I don't understand why Rob wouldn't just get out if you felt like there was a even a chance that your partner was researching ways to kill you like I wouldn't. I wouldn't be sticking around and just.

48:27 Taking something like we've been married for a long time. If you saw those surges, I might well obviously a true crime podcaster, wouldn't you, because you just wouldn't think that I would try to kill you. I would write no, But but he knows she's having an affair on him, Like it just seems I don't know, he seems a little naive. Think it takes a long I mean, we do these cases every week. It takes a long time, I think for people to really believe that this person that you love and have made a commitment to would try to take your life. That's very true. The Kissel's marriage seemed to be on the Nancy was more focused and attentive, even agreeing to marriage counseling, although one session unraveled into a screaming match, with Nancy declaring she wanted out, but the very next day she apologized, sincerely telling Rob she loved him and wanted their marriage to work. Nancy, it turns out, was also a bit of a detective. She went through their phone bill and found an unknown number dialed several times.

49:24 She had Mike call the number from the States Alpha Group Investigations. The voice on the other end of the line answered. Rob noticed frequent cash withdrawals from their account and accused Nancy of sending money to Mike. She was, but she denied it. The confrontation escalated into a shoving match, after which Rob cut up all but one of her credit cards. Soon after, the Kissels were invited to an exclusive reception honoring former President George H. W. Bush. Rob was a big fan of his and excited to attend. Nancy was also looking forward to the event. She bought a special new dress the event, a dress that highlighted her shoulders. In the weeks since she had gotten the three tattoos, Rob hadn't yet seen them. When Nancy spun around showing him her new dress, Rob grew enraged when he saw the tattoos.

50:13 He blew up. It might have been the final straw. He had tried to be patient with her, but this show of rebellion was too much. They shouted and screamed obscenities at each other. Nancy later claimed that Rob ripped the dress from her body. They were late to the reception, but once there, Nancy, in a much better mood, brazenly tapped President Bush on the shoulder and asked if he might say hello to her husband and pose for a picture. He kindly obliged, I will post that picture interesting. Just days later, Nancy hatched a new plan. She missed Mike and knew Rob would see through any trip to the States. She called her best friend Bryna and proposed that she fly into San Francisco and they could get boob jobs together.

50:55 It's a job, because we've said this several times because rest dougmentations sounded funny to say boob jobs either, but they both sound they were getting cosmetic surgery on their breast, gotcha. But the plan was for Mike to meet Nancy there. Right Unbeknownst to Nancy, Brina and Rob had been emailing and talking for months about the state of the Kissel's marriage. Briina had become his confidant and in many ways, his source of comfort. Which is a little weird too, a lot weird. Rob had become obsessed with finding proof that Nancy was still carrying on with Mike. He found it one day, in the form of a cell phone bill for an unfamiliar number. Then he found the cell phone hidden in her underwear drawer.

51:39 It's like the worst place to hide anything. Yeah, terrible. This was a pivotal moment for Rob. He woke up. He finally knew that his marriage was over. Okay, I realized. I think I said a few minutes ago that he really thought. The marriage was real. He really, really really thinks it's over. He took the phone and threw it into the street, never uttering a word to his wife. Nancy panicked when she realized the phone was missing. She called Mike collect from a payphone several times a day. Okay, so she's calling Mike from Hong Kong to the stage. Oh gosh, and like she's calling him several times a day. Yeah. His phone bill that month was over ten thousand dollars. Oh my, Mike was not a wealthy man.

52:20 On Thursday, October twenty third, Nancy visited her doctor and confided to her that her husband had been physically abusive to her. The doctor noted no apparent injuries and wrote in her notes quote alleged assault, subsequent violations, and low libido. Nancy admitted that the ambient wasn't effective and asked for a stronger medication. She suggested rofinol, also known as Rufe's or the date rape drug, illegal in the US but not in Asia. That same week, Nancy also returned to the psychiatrist complaining of a very tenacious sleep problem. She was given three medications, lauraz sam axetol, and amatryptolene. The combinations of all of the drugs Nancy now had in her medicine cabinet, when taken together, could definitely cause death.

53:10 A few days later, Rob asked a recruiter he knew to fax him a list of prominent divorce attorneys in Hong Kong. When nothing came through, he called to remind him, only to learn the list had already been sent. The recruiter read the number back, and Rob realized with dread it had gone straight to his home fax machine. Nancy almost certainly had it in her hands. After leaving the United Jewish Congregation. On Sunday, October second June, the middle Kissel child had a play date with a friend, Leah. Her father. Forbes Magazine Hong Kong bureau chief Andrew Tanzer dropped his daughter off and stayed for a while to talk with Rob. Soon their daughters delivered them pink milkshakes from the kitchen, made by Nancy. It tasted sickly sweet, made from strawberries, all the ice cream remnants in the freezer, and crushed cookies. Tanzer drank his quickly and said he'd return in a couple of hours to pick up Lea.

54:05 When he got home, he was overwhelmed by sleepiness and laid down on the couch. He was in such a deep sleep his wife couldn't wake him up. Hours later to pick up lea. Rob took Rice to the park when a colleague, David No, called him to discuss business. Rob was usually the sharpest guy in the room, but on this call he was confused and slurring his words. David was concerned because they had an important conference call scheduled for later that night. At six p m. With Connie off for the day, Nancy asked the housekeeper Min to collect Rice from the park and take him to a friend's picnic, with strict orders he be home by seven p m. Min asked Rob if she could wear his watch so she could keep track of the time.

54:46 He took off his fifteen thousand dollars Cardier watch and handed it to her, and then headed back up to his apartment. At six oh six p m. Security cameras captured Rob entering the elevator. The next morning, when the children asked where Rob was, Nancy said he had left for work because he had an early meeting. Min thought it was odd that his watch was still sitting on the counter where she'd left it the night before. He never left home without it. Nancy asked Connie to pick up some bleach when she dropped Rice off at preschool. After the kids left for school, Nancy retreated to her bedroom, telling Min not to disturb her or clean her bedroom that day. She then spent the next half hour on the phone with Mike. Next, she sent an email canceling an upcoming lunch she had scheduled with Scottie the Clown, who she had booked for an upcoming event at the Hong Kong International School. She wrote, my husband is not well and I need to take care of some things. Sorry, I will be in touch soon. She ordered some packing boxes to be delivered to her apartment, and then called the building's superintendent to rent an additional storage unit. Around ten a m Nancy left to go shopping at a home furnishing store and bought several items, including sheets, bedding, pillows, a chaise lounge, and a rug. Back at the apartment, she asked Min to go out to buy rope, packing tape, and plastic sheeting. Nancy was in the bedroom for the remainder of the day. I wonder what Min thought at this point. Could you go buy me some rope, some plastic sheeting, some pate and don't come in the bedroom. Well.

56:17 This was never stated in the book, but It's possible that they were getting ready for a move, because remember Rob got the promotion right and they were going to go to Taiwan, Okay. At seven pm, she called her father where we began this episode, crying as she recounted the terrible fight that she and Rob had had the night before. Afterwards, she tried calling Brina. It was only five thirty am in San Francisco, so Briana didn't answer, but Nancy left a message. You've got to call me. It's very important. I just called my dad and he's flying down here. Rob and I had a fight. He chased me around the room. He wanted to have sex. He beat me up, Call me please. When she woke up, Briina called Nancy, who told her about the fight and how violent Rob had been chasing her around, punching, hitting and kicking her. Briana knew that Rob was going to tell Nancy that weekend that he wanted a divorce. Nancy's story didn't seem to add up. If Rob was planning on leaving Nancy, why would he be chasing her around demanding sex. She tried calling him and emailing him several times with no response.

57:22 The next morning, Nancy was still acting strangely. She asked Min to go buy as much peppermine oil as she could get at the pharmacy. At nine am, Nancy walked into her doctor's office, hunched over and walking slowly. She explained to the doctor that her husband had beaten her badly, punching and kicking her, and he had tried to force her to have sex. Nancy's only visible wound was a small puncture on her hand between her thumb and forefinger. She explained that the only weapon she'd had in the bedroom during the assault was a fork, and rob had stabbed her with it. The doctor observed that her entire body was tender to the touch, despite only a few bruises. There were rugburns on Nancy's knees and a large bruise on her right shin. She demanded x rays because she was sure her ribs or collar bone was broken. Neither were.

58:12 When she was finished at the doctor's office, Nancy bought two more rugs. Connie noticed a bleached spot on the carpet and the smell of incense coming from the bedroom. It was odd because Nancy had never burned incense before. Later, Nancy confided in Connie about the fight, insisting on its severity and once again claiming she had broken a wrist or her ribs. Connie was surprised because neither she nor min had heard the fight. Nancy said Rob had stormed out of the apartment in anger, and she thought it entirely possible he wouldn't return, and after the explosive fight, she wasn't sure she even wanted to see him again. And that, my friends, is where we're going to end.

58:53 Really, we don't get to find out what happened to Rob until part two. Okay, exactly do you think is coming back? No? I do not think he's coming back. What do you think drew Rob and Nancy together in the first place, because they're pretty different. I mean, it must have had something to do with meeting in the nude on a nude beach. Maybe some instant attraction there, but no, I don't know. I mean, sometimes, you know, opposites do attract, and maybe he was rebelling, you know, from his family a little bit because the expectation was that he would marry someone who was ivy league and you know, upper class, So it could be part of that as well. I'm not sure. If I did the best job describing Nancy at the beginning, But they did have a lot of fun together. She could be the life of the party. Yeah, and I think that he was attracted to that. But in a lot of ways, I think Andrew, the older brother, and Nancy were more alike and Hayley, Andrew's spouse, was maybe a better fit for a Rob. Like they were both, you know, very career oriented and very successful, and the other two were you know, kind of like a good time Yeah.

59:57 Interesting. Do you think that living in a well the extra patriot community in Hong Kong had any impact on their relationship? Well maybe it probably, I'm sure it had an impact on the relationship. But also him working sixteen hours a day, Yeah, I'm sure had an impact on the relationship. But her being there in a foreign country while her husband is basically gone all the time, that's got to be really challenging. I feel some sympathy for her, I agree in that situation. Yeah, definitely. Why do you think that Rob didn't end the marriage sooner? I don't know, I mean, as soon as you said he hired a private investigator. I'm like, at that point, if you if you don't trust your spouse enough that you feel you need to hire a private investigator. I feel like it should be over, you know, It's just I don't know why he didn't leave for sooner.

1:00:43 Do you think that the Kissel's coming from, you know, this wealthy family and divorce is probably very frowned upon, had something to do with it. Could? Yeah? Could? It would be an indicator of failure. And remember they were, you know, trained from an early age to succeed everything they did, So maybe he just didn't want to admit to defeat. Yeah, that's a good observation. One question I have is that you alluded to a few times in your script that she claimed that Rob beat her. Is there any evidence that that happened. There's not, but it seems like maybe she was trying to lay the groundwork for yes, I was a battered spouse. Okay, But it's so hard in these situations when we're telling these stories because there's not really evidence either way. And I always want to believe people who say that they're victims of domestic violence. But really, Rob does seem like a nice guy. He was very invested in his job and you know, probably didn't give his family as much attention as he could have, but he did try to.

1:01:46 Yeah. Well, that was my other question for you was about whether Rob you thought he was a good husband or not. Obviously he worked way too much and probably that took him away from time with family and things like that. But was there any evidence did he have a fan or did he do anything else that made him a bad husband? Do you think? We'll talk about that a little bit in part two. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but I don't think that he was a perfect husband, sure, but I do think he was a pretty good guy, and I think he tried his best. Yeah. You know, I think this case was, you know, twenty years ago, and I know it's not that long ago, but even twenty years ago, I think a lot of men thought that their primary objective was to make money for their family, right right, And he definitely was doing He was making up boatload of money, seems and his earning potential seemed limitless, almost because his bonuses were literally millions of dollars a year, Which brings me to the question to you, like, we keep doing these stories about these wealthy people. What are we doing wrong? We're doing all right? But like these people who have so much money, they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah, it's insane to me, It really is so ira. In this case, Nancy's father, I'm not sure how close they were.

1:03:06 I think Nancy didn't have a lot of people that she was close to in her life. You know, she wasn't really raised by her father. But he rushed to her side, and you know, he went to Hong Kong. And I thought that was really sweet. Yeah, and just wanted what like, in that position, God forbid if one of our children, you know, called us in that situation where they're being abused by their spouse. Yeah, I can't imagine how hard that would be to hear. Oh, that would be really hard. And yeah, I would jump on a plane in a minute, you know, to help with something like that. Definitely. Well, be sure to come back for part two because there are some things that are really going to surprise you. I'm just going to say that I'll be here.

1:03:51 I think about this a lot. But if I were to die, please don't look at my Google searches. Well now I'm going to You can't just say that. But it really I think about this all the time. Like the things that we google are so private, you know, and I always forget to clean up. I don't even know how you really I clean out my cash once. How do you delete your Google searches? Or do you? I mean, I think it's I honestly don't know either. I don't really do it because you can't really do it permanently. It'd be hard to do permanently. Yes, I'm sure. Do you ever do incognito searches? Uh? Not that I can recall. I'm not going to say I never do. Maybe I do, but off the top of.

1:04:34 My head, I'm going to admit something to you all, But sometimes I go incognito if I'm playing the wordle, oh, I'm about to like get it wrong and like I'm not gonna lose wordle, So I'll go to Then you thought I was going somewhere else. I did not think that you were going to go there. But I'm admitting to my deepest, darkest secret. Dark that's down. How can you sleep at night? Sometimes I don't. But it's not because of that. It's like the other things. How often, like what percentage of the wordles that you do? Say that you have to do that very often. Sometimes I'm super sharp on the wordle, but other days it's just like I think it depends on what time I do it, because you know, sometimes I'm up way too late and it's like two am, and I should be like, I'll do the world. Yeah, it's probably not like my peak brain performance.

1:05:27 Right, does the word'll update like at midnight? So oh yes, okay, so you get in on it early sometimes. To New York Times too. We like a puzzle. I don't know if you have played Pips. I knew it. You told me about it. I did it like once or twice. That's all. I really like it. It's really fun. It's like a little math game. So if you like the wordle, I love connections wordle and Pips is really fun too. But I don't know. Those are the only ones I do. Do you do any other daily puzzles? I don't like. I play Sudoco once in a while. He means to do I can't. I can never say that. Yeah, I do that once in a while. That's really about it. On a daily basis.

1:06:08 I would say, do you. Have any embarrassing Google searches that you want to admit to? You know, this is really dumb. But a lot of my Google searches that are I don't know if this is embarrassing, but I google like words, the definitions of words that I should totally know. Yeah, but I'll be about to type a word in an email and I'll be like, wait, does that mean what I think? That's not embarrassing. Okay, we'll give us some of the words. The last one I did that was entice, which I totally know the meaning of the word entice, but for some reason, I just felt like I had to look it up to be sure. I have a list of embarrassing Google searches, kind of like people admitting online like things that they've searched, And this one hits home to me. It's similar to what you said. Recently, I forgot the word wreath, so I searched Christmas circles and it worked like things like that.

1:06:57 Before I do things like that's just like the word just totally leaves your mind. Yeah. Or one time I was in college really late typing a paper and I forgot how to spell the word was that's like w usy it was. It was so yeah, it totally happens like words start to like you start saying a word in your head over and over and you're like, that doesn't sound real, Like that doesn't sound like a real word. Yeah, exactly. Here's a few more. Why does my cat stare at me like that? That's something that I would totally google. Well, I remember one time I think you were away and it scared me, Like I think it was Clover and she was staring at the wall literally like two hours, yeah, and I was like, what do you see that I can't see? And like I get a flash that I'm looking at the wall is just kind of frightening.

1:07:43 It freaks you out? Yeah, yeah. Can you survive a zombie apopcalypse with just cheese? Plants? Feel pain? Why do I burp so much after kissing my partner? That's a weird one. How do I tell if my roommate is secretly plotting against me? They probably are? Probably? Is it a legal to marry a sandwich? Why does me sound like a foghorn? Can I get abs from eating cookies? Absolutely? Yes, I mean look at our abs. They're amazing. Do you fish get lonely? It's sad because they probably do. We always used to always have one goldfish on our counter yeah, and we got cats and we decided that that probably.

1:08:24 Was probably not a good combination. But if you have some embarrassing google so we would love to know, We would love to hear them. Yes, but having the podcast is such like a good Yeah, yeah, it's just for the it's just for the podcast. But I had to google something for part two of this that I was like horrified that I had to google it. It wasn't embarrassing as much as like, uh, I don't want to be too graphic, but it was a graphic sexual thing. I was like, oh my god, please forgive me. Did you use incognito? I didn't use incognito, but I was like, okay, this isn't you know, it's just because of the podcast. Well, I'm just going to tell you now because you may be wanting to look at my Google searches. Now.

1:09:07 My next case we're talking about breast augmentation surgeries or jobs or boob jobs. My next case heavily involves breast augmentation surgeries, so there may be some searches on my laptop around that topic. I was going to ask you about that. This is embarrassing not for me, but for like I've had. Actually I don't look at yours ever, but like a friend's husband will follow me on Instagram or something, and then I'll just look at the people that they're following, and they're following like Sally x x x or something like that. Have you ever seen a friend or anyone follow like and you see them following a bunch of like, you know, hot girls, and I'm just kind of horrified by that.

1:09:48 Yeah, and like their spouse isn't on Instagram or face like. One of them is, and I'm like, how would you do that? How is your wife supposed to feel about that? And it was like the one person I'm thinking of it was several hot babs call it. Wow, Yeah, that's pretty. I guess I haven't even checked yours, So you shouldn't. You should just trust me. I do. I do, and I really do, Like I don't know, I respect people's privacy, yeah, and I just wouldn't do that, but you don't give me reason to. So again, I'm sitting here in a place of right, Uh what's the word privilege? Yeah, because I know that I, you know, have an honorable husband as far as you know, as far as I know, he presents himself that way anyway.

1:10:31 All right, Well, that's all we have for today. If you'd like to listen to part two of this episode right now, you can join us on Patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill. We have one tier five dollars a month and you get early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. And if you don't want to support us on Patreon, that is completely fine. But the best way to support the podcast, our podcast, or any podcast is to leave us a five star review on Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen. Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com, and find us on YouTube. We always post our episodes a day early on YouTube. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.