Oct. 6, 2025

Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 1

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Andrew and Robert Kissel grew up just four years apart in a family where wealth and competition went hand in hand. Their father, Bill, was a relentless businessman who demanded success from his sons, and both carried that drive into adulthood in very different ways. Rob built his career as a prominent investment banker, while Andrew often looked for shortcuts in the world of real estate. In 1989, Rob married Nancy Keeshin, a spirited and impulsive woman whose personality contrasted sharply with his serious, ambitious nature. When Rob’s career took the family to Hong Kong, they appeared to be living the dream among the city’s wealthy expatriates. But behind the polished image, cracks in the marriage were starting to show. By November 2003, those tensions reached a breaking point when Rob vanished after a violent fight with Nancy. Soon, the Kissel family name would become infamous on two continents.

Today's snack: Apple cinnamon bread

Listen to Part 2 today.

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's.

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That some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you?

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I'm fabulous? How are you?

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You are not fabulous? Someone is a little grumpy.

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Today, a little grumpy.

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And I don't know why. You're just always so even.

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You are literally the most even tempered person in the universe.

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And it's just kind of cute when you're grumpy. I

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don't know why you're.

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Laughing at my grumpiness, wow.

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Just because it's so atypical. You don't like mean grumpy.

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You're just kind of like, I'm grumpy, and I don't

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know why.

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I would say I'm irritable. Yeah, okay, I'm a little

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irritable today.

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Everyone has off days. You don't have money. I should

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write it on my calendar. I think you literally have

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like one and a half grumpy days and here and

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that's about it.

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I think a little more than that.

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No, you're you're very pleasant, not not like your wife.

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You're pleasant.

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The audience. You just roll up Designsam me, how dare

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you sorry?

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That's my irritability show.

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Do you want to tell us why you're grumpy?

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Oh, there's there's a multitude of reasons.

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Tick one.

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While the Tigers, that's one. Stupid Detroit Tigers lost their

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game to the Cleveland Guardians today and they're probably gonna

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lose tomorrow. Chance have a chance tomorrow. Yeah, but they're

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just they look terrible.

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I'm sorry. Okay, did you put money on them at

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the beginning of the season.

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No, I should have. No, I shouldn't have. I guess

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I'm glad I didn't.

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Actually, I learned a new term yesterday when I was

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listening to a different podcast. I've never heard this term before.

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But we're really, really, really really bad at this as

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demonstrated by the conversation that we just had about the

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Tigers called evergreen. Do you know what that means?

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The tree kind of a tree.

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It's content that the remains relevant, fresh, and popular over

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an extended period, regardless of changing trends onlike content that

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fades quickly after a viral moment or current event.

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I think the Tigers will continue to be bad on

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an evergreens basis.

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Well, the seasons could be over.

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I know what you're saying. You know, it makes that

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makes sense where we are not good.

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At that moving on. Today's case has some sibling rivalry

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in it, and I'm wondering we both have several siblings,

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and I'm wondering if you have ever felt a sibling rivalry.

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I don't think there was a lot.

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You're the youngest of four.

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So we had, you know, I had two older brothers

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and then they were you know, of a particular age,

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and then there was a gap, and then there was

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my sister and I, and so I always felt like

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my sister and I were closer, you know, in age,

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but we didn't have I wouldn't say we had a

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lot of rivalry.

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Now it cracks me because you, you know, I always

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say how nice you are. You are really nice person,

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but you are kind of a brady little brother to

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your sister, and it cracks me up. Like the other day,

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I was texting with your sister and you said, I

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can't remember what you said, but it was.

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I suggested that maybe my sister was responsible for breaking

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up Keith and Nicole Kivgan's marriage.

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Well, probably giving more details than your sister would like

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us to give. But she's always had a crush on

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Keith Urban and when his marriage ended, yeah, we were like, hmmm, yeah,

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you know what I think about this, But yeah, you

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guys get along pretty well, and uh, how about you.

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I don't really feel so. I'm the second oldest of four,

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so kind of like your family too. There was kind

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of like the too older and then there was a

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gap and then there's two younger, and yeah, I would

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say the two younger are probably you know, they have

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more in common. And yeah, yeah, I don't think there's

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a lot of sibling rivalry, but there is in this case.

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In part one, we're going to focus on one brother

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and in part two we're going to focus a little

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bit more on the other brother, but they did have

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a lot of sibling rivalry. We're recording on October first,

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which is our official birthday for love Mary Cale. We

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mentioned this on the last episode. The only reason I'm

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mentioning it today is because I wanted to say thank

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you to everyone who wished us well and you know,

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congratulate us and just the support has been really overwhelming.

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We appreciate it, we do.

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And I did bring you a snack much if you're

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going to love this.

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You're really hungry, Okay, I'm irritable, so don't do this

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is better be good.

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I think September was the warmest September I ever remember

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here in Michigan. What do you think?

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Yes, for sure, we've.

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Been craving fall things, but it's still been really warm.

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We're both still wearing shorts and wearing white shorts because

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I'm a rebel, like if it's eighty degrees, I should

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still be able to wear white, right.

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Sure.

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Anyway, I made you Sally's apple spiced apple bread. Okay,

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our friend Teresa recommended it. I think you're going to

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like it. I'm not sure if you're going to love it.

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I didn't use all of you don't love spice like

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this right and stuff like that, But yeah, I used

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mostly cinnamon. I did use a little nutmeg, but I

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didn't use the annis and the other things. So, and

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it's got some icing on the top, like a reduced

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apple cider, and you add some talking and sugar. All right,

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what did you think of Sally's Spiced apple bread.

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It was pretty good. There was definitely a little I'm

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glad you made the changes you did because it was

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borderline on the spice.

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You probably should not have added the nutmeg.

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Yeah, but it was.

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It was.

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I didn't mind it too much. I didn't love the

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walnuts in.

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It, So that was met Sally.

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Okay, well you improved on one hand and you Yeah.

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I really like to add nods to any kind of

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quick bread. But yeah, I'm sorry, Okay. The rest by myself, No, it.

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Was pretty good. I would give it like a six

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out of ten. Six point five.

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Wow. I think i'd given an eight out of ten

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and maybe a nine out of ten tomorrow. I think

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it's one of those recipes that'll probably be better tomorrow.

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Yeah.

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Are you ready to dive into the case. I am, well,

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are you buckled in because this is a wild ride.

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I am buckled in before we start. I do want

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to give a special thank you to everyone who has

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supported the new version of Love Mary Kill to just

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the fact version we've had really good feedback. It seems

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like people are really really enjoying that. Yeah, so thank

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you so much for your support. In November two thousand

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and three, Nancy Kissel, thirty nine, called her father, Ira Keishan, sixty,

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at his home in Chicago. Nancy, her husband Rob and

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their three children lived in Hong Kong. Her chest heaved

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with intense sobs, she could barely get the words out.

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She told her father that Rob forty, her husband of

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fourteen years, had beaten her severely, even breaking several of

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her ribs, after she had refused him sex. But that

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was three days ago, and she hadn't seen him since.

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He hadn't showed up at his job at Merrill Lynch either,

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and that wasn't like him. His job was his life.

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Nancy didn't know what to do. Ira was confused. He

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didn't know his son in law to be a violent man.

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He thought of him like a son. As far as

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he knew. He'd never been abusive to Nancy before Ira

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booked the next flight to Hong Kong and rushed to

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O'Hare Airport the morning after Ibra arrived in Hong Kong.

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He took Nancy to file a police report against Rob

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for assault, as well as a missing person's report. Nancy

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was told that she needed to go to the hospital

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to be examined by a doctor to confirm her injuries

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before she could file the report. When they arrived at

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the hospital, there were several people queued before Nancy. She

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was not a person who liked to wait. After two hours,

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she grew impatient and they left the hospital. Nancy dropped

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Ira off at his hotel before she headed back to

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her apartment. At eleven pm that night, she awoke her

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father again with another frantic phone call. Come over right away,

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she screamed under the phone. The police are here, so

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many police. Robert Peter Kissel was born in nineteen sien

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sixty three in New York City to parents Elaine and William.

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Rob grew up in Montvale, New Jersey, in an upscale,

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family friendly neighborhood. Bill Kissel, his father, graduated from Case

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Western Reserve University with a degree in chemistry in nineteen

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fifty one. He became very successful after he started a company,

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Sinfax that manufactured dry toner cartridges, beating Xerox at their

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own game. He was all business, all the time and ruthless.

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His wife, Eileen, was gentle, soft and warm, a stark

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contrast to his brusque personality. Elaine was the heart of

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the family, often stepping in to rain and Bill whenever

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he was overly harsh, a role she assumed more often

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than not.

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You gotta be ruthless in the printer toner game. It's

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a cutthroat business.

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It does sound really impressive though, right, Like he developed

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this toner before Xerox did. He must have been, I

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mean super wealthy.

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Right, yeah.

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Together they had three children, Andrew in nineteen fifty nine,

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Robert or Rob in nineteen sixty three, and Jane in

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nineteen sixty eight. As the Kissel's fortune grew, they moved

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from the modest town of Woodcliffe Lake to a seven

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thy five hundred square foot mansion on two acres of

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land and the Upper Saddle River. Richard Nixon was a neighbor.

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On Halloween, Richard Nixon would pass out candy to the

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kids from his gate. That must be kind of a

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crazy childhood in wild The Kissels accumulated all the trappings

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of great wealth, a beautiful family home, a fleet of cars,

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a yacht, and a million dollar vacation home in Vermont

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on Stratton Mountain. Bill worked long hours, driven by relentless

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need to succeed, to crush and dominate his competition. For

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him and for his family, Failure simply wasn't an option,

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especially for his sons. Andy pushed back, rejecting the heavy

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mantle his father tried to drape over him. He wanted

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to do things his own way. When he was just nineteen,

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Andrew started his own auto parts business in part to

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avoid going to college. But Rob rose to meet his

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father's challenge. He carried the same fire, the same competitive edge,

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the same primal instincts that fueled his father. His grades

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weren't quite good enough for an ivy, but he settled

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for the University of Rochester and majored in engineering. He

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graduated in nineteen eighty six and set his sights on

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the world of finance, where he knew he could make

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more money. Rob worked for Sinfax with his father for

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a year before he enrolled at NYU's Stern School of Business.

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After Eileen's death in nineteen eighty nine, the Kissel family

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gatherings became almost unbearable, riddle affairs laced with caustic remarks

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and simmering rivalries, often inflamed by alcohol and other substances. Bill,

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the domineering patriarch, was relentless in his expectations, driving his

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children with the belief that power and success were the

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only measure of worth, and in his eyes, success was

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defined not by happiness, integrity, or person fulfillment, but by money,

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lots of it. Jane, who many called the most sensible

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of the Kissels, bowed out of the family drama and

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moved across the country to Washington State with her new husband, Richard.

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Rob's high school sweetheart, Carol Horton, remembered her time with

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him fondly. She told Forty eight Hours that he was

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the best looking guy in their class, sweet, gregarious, loving,

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and such a good guy. She said, I am so

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blessed for his life to have touched mine as it did.

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Whatever Rob did, he did well. Carol said that Rob

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and Andrew were like night and day. Rob's childhood friend

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Danny Williams, said that whenever they played monopoly, Rob was

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always the banker, and Andrew held the property deeds roles

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that would define them later in life.

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That's funny, and we'll.

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Talk about Andrew more later, but I'm sure that he

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definitely cheated monopoly. Competition between the brothers was steep. Even

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though Rob was four years younger, it was Andrew who

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had to work hard to keep up with his brother.

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Rob was the smarter, more athletic, and better looking of

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the brothers. Andrew lacked the charisma that came natural to Rob.

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He spent much of his life trying to measure up

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to his brother, but always fell short. Literally, one brother

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was all about hard work and the other shortcuts. I

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know it sounds like I being a little mean to

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Andrew here, but just wait, okay. Nancy Anne Keishan was

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born in nineteen sixty four in Adrian, Michigan, to Jean

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and Ira Kishan. I always have to find a way

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to mention Michigan in every episode. It's kind of like

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an Easter eggus. Jean Stark met Ira Kishan at Grinnell

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College in Iowa. Jeane came from a wealthy Cincinnati family

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that owned and operated Lazarus Department Stores, founded in eighteen

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fifty one. Her ancestor, Fred Lazarus Junior, was even credited

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with convincing President Franklin Roosevelt to permanently fix Thanksgiving to

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the fourth Thursday of November, ensuring a clear and set

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start to the holiday shopping season. Lazarus was eventually absorbed

261
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into Macy's in two thousand and five. Jane was a

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freshman when she became pregnant by Ira, a sophomore in

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October nineteen sixty one. They quickly married. Trudy was the eldest,

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followed by Nancy two years later. My main source for

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this case was a book written by Joe McGinnis we'll

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00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.639
talk about that at the end, called Never Enough, and

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he used pseudonyms, and there was not a lot of

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information about Nancy's sister. He called her Laura. I believe

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her name was Trudy. It's possible that I have that wrong.

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Ira transferred to Michigan State University and earned a degree

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in restaurant and hotel management. After graduation, the couple moved

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to Cincinnati, where Ira began working in Jean's family business,

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focusing on revitalizing the department stores, seventy eight restaurants, and

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thirty two employee cafeterias. He later purchased the historic Cincinnati restaurant,

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The Real Cafe. In nineteen seventy five, Jane and Ira

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divorced a year later. He remarried in nineteen seventy eight

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to a woman named Joyce Jenkins. Irish sold his restaurant,

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The Wheal Cafe, and moved to Minneapolis and became concessions

279
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manager to the new Hubert h. Humphrey Metrodome. Jean and

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her daughters moved to Piedmont, California, near Berkeley, and adopted

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a hippie lifestyle, eschewing her family's wealth and status, but

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she was ill equipped to support herself and the girls,

283
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.200
losing countless jobs. She lacked the talent to support her

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family as an artist, her preferred career. Like their mother,

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00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:37.039
Trudy and Nancy drifted through those years without direction, experimenting

286
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.080
with drugs and sex. It was the sixties, after all.

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Trudy eventually moved out and married, while Nancy dabbled in

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art classes but never had the discipline to pursue a

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degree or develop her own portfolio. Nancy was strikingly beautiful,

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00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.480
charming when it suited her, but often ill tempered and spoiled.

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She was accustomed to getting her way, and if she didn't,

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she simply walked away. She suggested that Nancy might be

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happier in a fresh environment and encouraged her to move

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to Minnesota to live with her father, his new wife,

295
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and her five year old brother Brooks. After suffering through

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a cold winter at the University of Minnesota, Nancy twenty

297
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transferred to the Parsons School of Design in New York

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in the fall of nineteen eighty four, she felt that

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she'd found her people among the like minded, artistic, beautiful,

300
00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.440
and fashionable New Yorkers. After a year, she dropped out

301
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.879
and waitressed at a series of bars and restaurants. Without

302
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.879
even trying. She landed a small role in Whole Metal

303
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:37.559
Jacket and then a small role in a soap opera.

304
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:41.799
Nancy was driven those years by a heady mix of overconfidence, youth,

305
00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:42.799
and drugs.

306
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.080
Do you know what her role in Full Metal Jacket was?

307
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:46.039
That's such a gad movie.

308
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:49.360
Yeah, it's not credited, so it might just be someone

309
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:49.960
you know.

310
00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:51.960
In Watch the movie and find her.

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00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:54.039
I don't know if I'd be able to recognize her.

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00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.320
So. In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, before he

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00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.399
began graduate school, Rob Kissel and his friend and Mike

314
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.720
Paradise took a trip to Turks and Caicos. They stayed

315
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.039
at a resort called Turquoise. Nancy Keishan and her friend

316
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:12.320
Ali Gertz were also staying at the resort. Nancy was petite, blonde, flashy,

317
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.600
and feisty. When Nancy and Rob met on a nude beach.

318
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.840
There was an instant attraction. I bet you'd look great

319
00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.440
with clothes on, he said, It's really funny. They were

320
00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.200
immediately smitten with each other. Rob was attracted to Nancy's

321
00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.039
cool New York attitude, and she was attracted to his

322
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.039
earning potential.

323
00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.759
I'm a little mean to Nancy in this case took

324
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.200
Rob was a very good looking guy, and I think

325
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.519
she was attracted to him, but I think she did

326
00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:40.879
like the fact that he was an investment banker.

327
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.440
Got it. By the time they returned to New York

328
00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.840
from vacation, Rob and Nancy were exclusively dating. A year later,

329
00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.519
Rob proposed and the couple moved in together. Bill Rob's

330
00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.320
father openly disapproved of Nancy, dismissing her for not having

331
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.919
a degree from an Ivy League school and derisively referring

332
00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:02.960
to her as that waitress. Despite his disapproval, Rob and

333
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Nancy married in September nineteen eighty nine, Andrew, Rob's older brother,

334
00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.680
married Hailey Wolf, a beautiful Ivy League educated former competitive

335
00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.359
skier with a promising career of her own as a

336
00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:18.680
financial analyst. She often appeared on CNBC giving stock tips.

337
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.039
Coming from a wealthy and accomplished family. She earned Bill

338
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:27.039
Kissel's respect and attention. Unlike Nancy, the former waitress. Marrying

339
00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.880
Haley was one way for Andrew to won up his brother.

340
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.400
He was clearly punching above his weight.

341
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.799
He really was. For some reasons, skiing was really important

342
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.799
to the Kissels, and the fact that Haley was this

343
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.960
great skier really made Bill happy.

344
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Skiing is important to like wealthy peoples a lot of times.

345
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.200
Yeah we are not skiers, and no we're not. But

346
00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:54.400
Haley was Jane's ski coach for a while. That's how

347
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:54.839
they met.

348
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.440
Ali Gertz, Nancy's best friend and maid of honor, later

349
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.799
became a fearless advocate for her AIDS awareness after being

350
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.359
diagnosed at just twenty two. Ali was beautiful and came

351
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.319
from a wealthy family. She became a face of the

352
00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.960
AIDS epidemic, interviewed by Barbara Walters, featured on the cover

353
00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:14.960
of People, and named Woman of the Year by Esquire.

354
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.839
She contracted the disease after her very first sexual encounter

355
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:23.000
at sixteen, a one night stand. Determined that others learned

356
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.599
from her story, Ali lectured people that anyone could contract

357
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AIDS if they had unprotected sex. She founded Love Heels,

358
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:35.079
an organization dedicated to educating young people and supporting those

359
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.440
abandoned by their families. Her story was later told in

360
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.279
a TV movie starring Molly Ringwold. Ali passed away in

361
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.799
nineteen ninety two at the age of twenty six.

362
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I watched a brief documentary about Ali on YouTube, and

363
00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.880
she's very inspiring. It's just such a sad, tragic story.

364
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.519
Yeah. But at Nancy's nineteen eighty nine wedding, when Ali

365
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casually mentioned the multitude of pills she had to remember

366
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.960
to take, Nancy lashed out at her. Just shut up, Alli,

367
00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:05.240
this is my day. Nobody wants to hear about your

368
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.559
fucking pills. Seems a little harsh.

369
00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:08.720
Yeah.

370
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The wedding and reception were held at the East River

371
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.480
Yacht Club. Nancy and Rob made a striking couple, and

372
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.160
by all accounts, the celebration was beautiful, but Nancy would

373
00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.000
later complain that Ali had ruined her day by stealing

374
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.480
her spotlight. Guests were drawn to the courageous young woman,

375
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.839
eager to hear her story and to offer her compassion.

376
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We'll be back after a break.

377
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.039
While Rob finished business school at NYU, Nancy supported them financially.

378
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After graduation, Rob worked at an old school investment bank

379
00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:49.920
where he specialized in distressed debt also called volture investing.

380
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.200
Distressed debt investing is a way to profit from failure

381
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.920
rather than success. The strategy works by buying the bonds

382
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.559
of a bankrupt or a failing company for honeys on

383
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.200
the dollar, then using that position to influence or force

384
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:09.480
a reorganization. Instead of taking repayment in cash, investors exchange

385
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.920
their bonds for shares in the newly reorganized company. If

386
00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:18.160
the turnaround succeeds, the stock value can skyrocket, multiplying their

387
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.039
initial investment many times over. For those who play it well,

388
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.039
the rewards can be enormous. I have to caution everyone,

389
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.799
I am not an economist, and writing this with a

390
00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:34.599
little tricky because sometimes I'm like, I think this is right,

391
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.160
but you know it's it's tricky. There's a lot of financial.

392
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:40.119
Yeah, I am also not an expert in the stock They're.

393
00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.400
Way closer than I am. But did that make sense

394
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:42.640
to you?

395
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:43.559
More or less?

396
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:45.759
What's that one? The Wolf of Rall Street. Isn't that

397
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.640
similar to what they did? Like buying like.

398
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.319
Penny stocks penny stocks. Yeahkay.

399
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:54.200
Investment bankers work punishingly long hours in a cutthroat, highly

400
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.799
competitive environment. Their job is to literally make money at

401
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.680
any cost to their personal life and well being. Rob,

402
00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.200
who was putting in one hundred hours a week at

403
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.960
the office, said to friends, what good does it do

404
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.440
to make ten million a year when the guy down

405
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.839
the hall is making twenty? When the Asian markets closed,

406
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.920
the New York markets opened, and the cycle began again.

407
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.240
There was no pause, no rest, no chance to breathe.

408
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.960
If you were resting, you weren't making money.

409
00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.640
Does not sound like a lifestyle I would enjoy. No.

410
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.559
Nancy and Rob lived in the Upper West Side of

411
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.400
Manhattan in a small apartment. I looked up their old

412
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.400
apartment building, and today I think they have two different

413
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.240
floor plans. Nine hundred and fifty six square feet and

414
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.160
the rent is eighty three hundred and fifty dollars a month,

415
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.839
and for a sixteen hundred square foot apartment the rent

416
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.240
is thirteen nine hundred and fifty dollars. After their first

417
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.720
child was born, Elaine, they needed more space and moved

418
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.920
to Greenwich Village. Nancy loved her baby, but she hadn't

419
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.680
grown up with the best parenting role model. Even with

420
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:01.839
friends and family, Nancy struggled to formed deep, lasting connections,

421
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.119
and motherhood was no different. She found it difficult to

422
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:09.279
shoulder the full weight of responsibility for another human being's life,

423
00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:13.400
and it was mundane. Nancy craved more excitement. In New

424
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.759
York City. She quickly realized many mothers weren't the ones

425
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.240
pushing the strollers to the park. Instead, they hired nannies

426
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.039
to take their place. In the late nineteen eighties, Hong

427
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.319
Kong was a magnet for ambitious bankers like Rob Kissel.

428
00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.400
The world of finance was coming to understand the benefits

429
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.839
of the global marketplace. Hong Kong had just been handed

430
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.920
back to China, but its identity as a global financial

431
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.559
hub was only growing stronger. Skyscrapers glittered over Victoria Harbor,

432
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.160
filled with foreign banks and investment firms eager to tap

433
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.680
into Asia's exploding markets. It was the gateway to China,

434
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:50.480
an economy just beginning to open up to the world,

435
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.920
and Hong Kong offered a unique blend of East and West,

436
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:59.039
with low taxes, minimal regulation, and a promise of enormous profits.

437
00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:02.880
Even the turbulence of the Asian financial crisis in nineteen

438
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:07.319
ninety seven and ninety eight didn't diminish its allure. If anything,

439
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.359
the volatility created opportunities for those willing to take risks.

440
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.319
For rob moving to Hong Kong meant being at the

441
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.880
center of fast moving money and high stake steals. For Nancy,

442
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:21.160
it meant a glamorous new life in one of the

443
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:26.119
world's most cosmopolitan cities, with a vivacious expatriate community who

444
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.759
lived in luxury high rises, employed living domestic help, and

445
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:34.240
sent their children to impressive international schools. Hong Kong wasn't

446
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.759
just a career move. It was an adventure, and for

447
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:39.640
a young family like the Kissels, it promised the best

448
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:44.279
of everything. The Chinese government allowed Hong Kong's rampant capitalism

449
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.559
to flourish without feeling as though they were desecrating Mao's

450
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:52.039
legacy of strict control. Daily life was fast paced and crowded,

451
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.559
filled with neon signs, dim sum houses, and a thriving

452
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.440
pop culture scene led by Hong Kong cinema and cantopop.

453
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.559
Overpopulation of Hong Kong has led to extreme air pollution

454
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.960
that peaked in early two thousand it has improved, but

455
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.200
PM two point five and PM ten remain nearly three

456
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:16.759
times the level recommended by the WHO. PM means particulate matter,

457
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.359
and there's different kinds of particulate matter. Actually, today I

458
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.680
was looking at like a geographical map of the entire world,

459
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.799
and I guess I didn't realize that Asia is really

460
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.039
very polluted. Like if you look at you know, like

461
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.240
Europe and the United States and Canada, and they're all green,

462
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:38.400
but most of Asia is, you know, still suffering from

463
00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:39.599
severe air pollution.

464
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:40.759
Yeah, that's too bad.

465
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:43.640
Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated places

466
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:46.920
on Earth, with an average of about seventeen four hundred

467
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:51.039
people per square mile, higher than cities like New York

468
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.000
or London. In some districts. In Kowloon, for example, that

469
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.519
number source to over three hundred and ten thousand people

470
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:03.200
per square mile, making daily life feel compressed into high

471
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.440
rise towers and crowded streets. Even compared to Manhattan, which

472
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.119
has around seventy thousand people per square mile. Hong Kong's

473
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.559
density is staggering and shapes nearly every aspect of life,

474
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.200
from housing to transportation to access to open space.

475
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.359
I can't even imagine.

476
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.480
What do you think our population density it was if.

477
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.839
You have it twelve people per square mile or something

478
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:25.079
like that.

479
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.480
It's more than that, but it is kind of shocking. Yes,

480
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.000
I'm sorry that I went on so long about Hong Kong,

481
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:31.680
but I think it's really interesting.

482
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:33.480
Well, I think it's interesting too, and I think it

483
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.960
paints a really good picture of what their life must

484
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:36.319
have been.

485
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.279
Right, and just the culture shock from going to you know,

486
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:41.160
they lived in well, they did live in New York City,

487
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.599
but they also had a place in Vermont. But yeah,

488
00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:46.920
I don't think it even compared. No, because the population

489
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:51.400
density is so high. There are no houses like flat houses.

490
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.400
You know, everything is built upright, And to me, that's

491
00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:56.720
just so hard to picture. It would have been to

492
00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.599
cities before, but here, you know, everyone has a house, right,

493
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:01.200
It's just very different.

494
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:01.559
Yes.

495
00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:04.880
In the nineteen nineties, Goldman Sachs was the number one

496
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.759
investment bank in the world. When Rob Kissel was offered

497
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.960
a job in Hong Kong, he jumped at the chance

498
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.519
to get in on the emerging market. They only send winners.

499
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:16.200
This means I'm on the fast track to make partner.

500
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.599
Hong Kong is the key to the mint. He told

501
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:22.839
his friends. His ultimate dream was to make partner at Goldman,

502
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:26.240
and moving to Asia increased his odds dramatically. Just give

503
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.359
me three years. Rob pleaded with Nancy and moving to

504
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:32.000
Hong Kong had the added bonus of bowing out of

505
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:35.680
the Kissel family drama for a few years. In June

506
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.839
nineteen ninety seven, the Kissel settled into Park View, a

507
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:43.000
thirty five hundred square foot luxury apartment costing twenty thousand

508
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:46.759
dollars a month. The complex was home to many wealthy expatriots,

509
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:50.319
offering both comfort and status, but the move came at

510
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:53.599
a turbulent time. Just weeks before Britain handed Hong Kong

511
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:56.720
back to China, tensions in the city were running high,

512
00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:00.440
and when the Asian currency crisis struck soon after, Rob

513
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.400
saw not only risk but opportunity. Park was more like

514
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:09.400
a vacation resort, with its abundance of amenities including luxury hotel,

515
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:14.920
eight dining options, multiple tennis and squash courts, three swimming pools,

516
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.599
and even two driving ranges. Residents had access to a

517
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.359
three story health club staffed with trainers and nutritionists, along

518
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.880
with a preschool, children's playground and daily supervised kids' activities.

519
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:28.319
But did they have a pickleball court?

520
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.319
Well, I don't even know what squash is. Cultural and

521
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.359
leisure offerings included a theater, art gallery, beauty salon, supermarket,

522
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:41.920
landscaped formal gardens, and a lifestyle shop selling everything from

523
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.960
paperweights to silk slippers embroidered with the Parkview logo. There

524
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.799
was even a Roman path. So the complex was composed

525
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.559
of eighteen towers, which were filled with investment bankers, attorneys

526
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:58.000
and other high powered executives. The Kissels lived in Tower sixteen.

527
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.319
There was a hierarchy to the tower. Well, sixteen was

528
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:05.359
a fine tower. The most successful, most affluent people lived

529
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.960
in towers seventeen and eighteen. If someone was floundering and

530
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.200
not making their numbers, they'd be forced to move to

531
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:12.480
a lower numbered tower.

532
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.799
But I just can't even imagine this life style, right.

533
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:19.400
The Kissels hired to live in Nanny Connie and housekeeper

534
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:22.720
men who were cousins. Nancy was left with little to do.

535
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.319
Rob worked sixteen hours most days and traveled frequently across Asia.

536
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:31.519
The Kissels joined the United Jewish Congregation and the yacht club,

537
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.720
but Nancy grew bored and lonely. Though she lived a

538
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:37.920
life of luxury with her favorite designer shops just fifteen

539
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.640
minutes away, she was too afraid to drive the busy

540
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.359
streets in Hong Kong at first. Eventually she navigated the

541
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:47.759
tangled highways and traffic, immersing herself in the shopping and

542
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:49.759
spending that gave her the most joy.

543
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:53.119
I don't like to drive it at our. Can you

544
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:54.799
imagine driving in Hong Kong?

545
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:58.200
No, I can't. I avoid driving in any foreign country

546
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:00.440
that I can help it, but Hong Kong. She would

547
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:05.319
be bananas. To outsiders, The couple seemed enviable, a perfect

548
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.680
and polished image whenever they stepped out together, but behind

549
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.079
closed doors their apartment was filled with rage and disappointment.

550
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.119
About a year into their Hong Kong residency, Nancy's mother, Jean,

551
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.240
came for a visit. Jean had recently lost half a

552
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.240
lung to cancer and was still frail from the surgery.

553
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:25.200
When one of the young children began to have a tantrum,

554
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.400
Nancy called to Nanny to come take them away. Jean

555
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:31.359
suggested that Nancy should be more hands on with the children.

556
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.160
It might have struck a chord with Nancy because Rob

557
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:36.920
constantly told her the same thing, that she needed to

558
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.279
be more engaged with the children. She lashed out angrily

559
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.839
and demanded Jean leave immediately. She pushed and shoved her

560
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.119
mother out the door and then slammed.

561
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.440
It shut, and she didn't talk to her for years

562
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:49.839
and years after that wow.

563
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.359
In October nineteen ninety nine, Nancy and Rob welcomed their

564
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:55.319
third child, a son named Rice.

565
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.359
I don't think I mentioned the second child's name is June,

566
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.839
so they have a lame June and okay.

567
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:05.759
Rob was overjoyed, but Nancy sank into postpartum depression. At

568
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:09.119
thirty five, She began to feel unattractive, convinced her best

569
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.839
years were behind her, Although just months before Rice's birth,

570
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.359
the Kissels had moved to the twenty second floor of

571
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.240
Tower seventeen of Parkview. That's the good Tower, one of

572
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:18.559
the good.

573
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.039
Towers, one of the good towers. It's not eighteen, okay.

574
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.079
Now living in the second most prestigious tower, Nancy took

575
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.440
satisfaction and looking down on others, knowing that she had

576
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.440
made it. In the spring of two thousand, as Nancy

577
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.839
began house hunting in Connecticut, convinced their time in Asia

578
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.759
was nearly over per her agreement with Rob, but he

579
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:40.039
accepted a new position with Meryll Lynch as Asia Pacific

580
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:43.960
Managing Director of Global Principal Investments, and they would need

581
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.440
to extend their time in Asia.

582
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.000
Rob took this new job in part because, remember how

583
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:51.680
much he wanted to make partner, it looked like he

584
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:55.000
was not going to make partner at Goldman, so he

585
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:58.160
took this job with Mary Lynch. But it was also

586
00:30:58.519 --> 00:30:59.680
an excellent job.

587
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.680
To persuade Nancy to stay another three years, he struck

588
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.599
a bargain with her. The couple loved skiing and owned

589
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.640
a condo at Stratton Mountain in Vermont, where Rob and

590
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.519
his family had gone since he was a child. Nancy

591
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:15.720
envied Andrew and Hayley's home on the mountain. She agreed

592
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.279
to remain in Asia on the condition that they purchased

593
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:21.240
a two million dollar house in Stratton and set aside

594
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.519
another one million dollars for renovations and decorating. Rob agreed.

595
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.039
Despite Nancy winning this battle. This was a turning point

596
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.240
in the Kissel's marriage. A small seed of resentment that

597
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:35.160
had been planted since their move to Hong Kong flowered

598
00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:37.920
into hatred. The sight of Rob and the sound of

599
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.200
his voice began to turn her stomach. He badgered her

600
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.359
constantly about spending time with the children and feeding them

601
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.559
home cooked meals instead of taking them out for fast food.

602
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.799
And then there was the constant battle over her excessive

603
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:54.200
shopping and self indulgence. The marriage was in a slow

604
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:58.839
descent toward irreparable fracture, a once happy union now defined

605
00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:02.759
by bitterness and animas more money and material goods couldn't

606
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:06.759
fix their problems. Many years earlier, in nineteen sixty six,

607
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.799
Jeanne and Ira, Nancy's parents, purchased a lead statuette of

608
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:14.079
two little girls for his mother for Mother's Day. It

609
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.240
was eight inches tall and very heavy, about eight pounds.

610
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:20.240
She cherished the piece as it reminded her of her

611
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:24.359
two granddaughters. Nancy always loved the piece too. She shared

612
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.400
a very special bond with her grandmother. When she passed

613
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.279
away in two thousand and one. After the funeral, Nancy

614
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:33.359
brought the treasured statue back with her to Hong Kong

615
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.480
and placed it in her bedroom, a cherished memento of

616
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.680
someone she deeply loved and missed. Why are you telling

617
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.240
me about this statue right now?

618
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.559
It seems like a superfluous detail, doesn't.

619
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.279
It It does. Yeah. Finally, in two thousand and two,

620
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.759
Nancy was feeling more comfortable in Hong Kong as the

621
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.720
kids were getting older and were easier to manage. She

622
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:56.359
started to volunteer at the Hong Kong International School. She

623
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:59.200
was there so much she asked for her own parking space.

624
00:32:59.359 --> 00:32:59.960
Anne got it.

625
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:05.640
She organized parties, fundraisers, and spearheaded school beautification projects. She

626
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.759
even began using the school's address to send and receive

627
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.039
mail that she didn't want Rob to see. Nancy, the children,

628
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:15.200
and Connie spent the summer of two thousand and two

629
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:18.559
in New York. While Connie looked after the kids, Nancy

630
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:23.240
filled her days with shopping. Briana O'shay, Nancy's childhood best friend,

631
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:25.599
came to visit her for a few days in New York.

632
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.960
During the visit, the two went to see Unfaithful, starring

633
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.799
Richard Gear and Diane Lane.

634
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:32.440
Do you remember this movie? Uh?

635
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:33.000
Not really?

636
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:36.480
No, So as homework for the podcast, I watched the

637
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.759
movie the other day thoroughly enjoyed it. It's really good.

638
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.880
I recommend you go watch it if you haven't watched it.

639
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.640
It's pretty good. It's very intense, some kind of like

640
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.319
a little bit of a thriller. Fast forward probably thirty

641
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:52.039
seconds if you don't want to hear about the movie

642
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:53.640
and you'd rather watch it. But we're going to give

643
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:55.880
just a brief little synopsis.

644
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.359
In the film, Lane's character has an affair with a

645
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:02.480
Frenchman who is very hands okay, and when her husband,

646
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:05.799
played by Gear, hires a private investigator, the truth is

647
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.440
confirmed to him in a series of damning photographs. Consumed

648
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:13.119
with rage, Gear's character confronts the lover in his apartment and,

649
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.039
in a fit of violence, kills him by bashing his

650
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.880
head with a snow globe. The movie struck a chord

651
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.760
with Nancy, so much so that she couldn't stop thinking

652
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:25.079
about it for weeks afterward. This is all coming full

653
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:27.480
circle with this statue that you mentioned.

654
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.760
Earlier, just putting things together.

655
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:29.719
I know, I'm good.

656
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.760
I just mentioned the statue because there was an important

657
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.800
memento to Nancy got her grandmother. The frenchman in the

658
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.360
film is very handsome.

659
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:41.119
You said that already, apparently.

660
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:44.039
But he's very handsome, and he's played by I believe

661
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:47.559
his name is Oliver Martinez, who was married to Haley

662
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:51.800
Berry and they had a very ugly divorce. Okay, sorry

663
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.679
my pop culture knowledge, just I can't shut up.

664
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:56.079
You find Richard Gear handsome?

665
00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:58.920
Yeah, definitely, but he's no Frenchman?

666
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.800
Okay. Over the Christmas holiday that year, the entire Kissel

667
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.400
family met at Whistler to ski together. Nancy was so

668
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.920
checked out of the family's incessant arguing and one upsmanship

669
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.599
that she and Rice flew back to Hong Kong several

670
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:17.599
days early. Bill Kissel was furious, reminding Rob to keep

671
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:21.159
his wife firmly in her place. In two thousand and three,

672
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.079
Hong Kong was hit hard by the SARS epidemic. I

673
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.480
forgot all about sorrows. COVID has just eclipsed every other

674
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:28.679
epidemic from my brain.

675
00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.079
They started in very similar ways.

676
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:35.599
Yeah, Schools closed, businesses shuddered, and fear gripped the city.

677
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.719
As hundreds fell ill and nearly three hundred people died.

678
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.159
The economy took a sharp downturn, especially in real estate

679
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:47.119
and tourism. Many expatriots, already unsettled by the outbreak, chose

680
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:50.440
to leave Hong Kong altogether. For those who stayed, the

681
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.119
sense of isolation and uncertainty only added to the pressures

682
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:57.320
of daily life. Rob sent Nancy and the three children

683
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.960
back to the US after he fell ill in Hong Kong,

684
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.039
but no school in New York would allow Nancy to

685
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.679
enroll the children. After their arrival from Hong Kong, Verma

686
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.760
was more amenable, so they moved to the skihouse, even

687
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:13.840
though it was still under renovation. Rob came to visit

688
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:17.920
in April on the twenty first, his fortieth birthday. Nancy

689
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:22.519
nor the kids acknowledged his birthday. That is sad. Rob

690
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.679
returned to Hong Kong depressed and in pain. An old

691
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.400
ski injury to his back was giving him problems again.

692
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:31.840
Soon after his return to China, Rob was offered a

693
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.400
major promotion managing all of Asia's distressed debt investments. The

694
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.159
job would require a move from Hong Kong to Tokyo,

695
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:41.719
but Rob thought it would give him and Nancy a

696
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:45.079
chance for a fresh start. We'll be back after a break.

697
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.760
Rana, Nancy's childhood best friend, began noticing changes in Nancy's

698
00:36:56.800 --> 00:37:01.039
personality and a growing shift in her attitude towards since

699
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.920
Bryce's birth. She seemed depressed and withdrawn. It surprised Brna

700
00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:08.559
when Rob called her seeking her advice on how to

701
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.599
approach his crumbling marriage with Nancy and estates and Rob

702
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:17.039
in Asia, he installed spyware on her computer. Not He

703
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:21.159
also hired an ex cop turned PI named Frank Shay

704
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:26.599
to trail Nancy. Frank's business, Alpha Group was thriving, even

705
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:32.480
started getting international jobs working corporate investigations and computer forensics.

706
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:36.679
For twelve thousand, five hundred dollars a week plus expenses.

707
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:40.519
Frank or one of his associates would follow Nancy and

708
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:43.360
give a detailed report of her actions for the week.

709
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.239
I'd do that for ten grand a week.

710
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:47.719
That amount of money shocked me.

711
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:48.639
That is shocking.

712
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.840
Michael del Priori thirty nine, a twice divorced father of

713
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:56.480
three and an audio visual technician, was hired by Rob

714
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:58.880
to install a state of the art home theater in

715
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.840
the Vermont Ski House. Rob was in Asia on the

716
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.400
day of the installation, leaving Nancy to handle things. When

717
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.719
Mike rang the doorbell, Nancy answered wearing short shorts and

718
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.880
a tank top. Mike was a bulky guy who obviously

719
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.000
hit the gym a few times a week, but he

720
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.639
wasn't a good guy. He'd left his wife and two

721
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:19.960
kids for an eighteen year old exotic dancer. When she

722
00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:23.400
became pregnant, he left her to pursue a relationship with

723
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.119
a fifteen year old He was thirty oh. As Mike

724
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.360
installed the sound system, Nancy kept him company. By the

725
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.760
time he was finished, they'd arranged a playdate for their children.

726
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.320
By the end of the week, the private investigator confirmed

727
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.599
to Rob that Nancy and Mike had met twice, each

728
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:44.440
time for several hours. Rob had also intercepted a string

729
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.960
of thirty emails between them, enough to remove any doubt

730
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.639
about an affair. He thanked the investigator and said that

731
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:54.840
that was all he needed. On Nancy's next date with Mike,

732
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.199
he took her to get a tattoo three small Chinese

733
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:02.360
characters inked on her left shoulder, each symbol representing one

734
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.440
of her children's birth dates. She couldn't wait for Rob

735
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:07.800
to see the new tattoo because she knew that he

736
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.840
would hate it. I think that she had expressed interest

737
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:14.760
in getting a tattoo before and Rob was like, Nope,

738
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.039
you don't need one. Nancy and Mike quickly became inseparable,

739
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.599
meeting almost every day and talking for hours on the

740
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:24.559
phone in between rendezvous. But by late June, guilt and

741
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:27.920
anxiety began to set in. Nancy tried to end the affair,

742
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.800
only to fall into a cycle of breakups and reconciliations

743
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.639
that repeated every few days for the remainder of the summer.

744
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:38.480
Years earlier, Rob had back surgery after suffering an injury

745
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:41.079
while skiing in the summer of two thousand and two.

746
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:44.280
He reinjured it while playing tennis. For weeks, he was

747
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:46.840
laid up with nothing to do but obsess over Nancy

748
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.679
and her new boyfriend. In July, he returned to the

749
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:53.079
States to consult doctors. He told Nancy he had read

750
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:55.719
some of her emails, claiming he'd only seen them because

751
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.599
her computer had a virus, and then confronted her about Mike.

752
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:03.360
She denied having an affair. They were just friends, she claimed.

753
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:06.519
Rob asked her not to see him anymore. She promised

754
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.840
not to. She had a lot to lose. Rob wasn't

755
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:11.800
sure if he could trust her, so he called his

756
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.880
friends at Alpha Group to surveil Nancy once again. She

757
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.280
had more free time because the children were immersed in

758
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.199
summer camps or in the care of the nanny. Nancy

759
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.519
kept the private investigator Roco, busy checking into cheap motels

760
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:29.760
with Mike, never the same one twice. Nancy enjoyed cosplaying

761
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:32.800
her new role as the girlfriend of a blue collar worker.

762
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:35.800
Knowing she had her comfortable home and credit cards still

763
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:39.280
at her disposal, she and Mike grew closer. She confided

764
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.159
to him that Rob was abusive to her, both mentally

765
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:45.679
and physically, even breaking her ribs. Nancy had never told

766
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.800
anyone else in her life about the domestic violence she suffered.

767
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:51.360
One days, when she didn't see Mike until the children

768
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.239
were in bed, she filled the hours with endless shopping.

769
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.480
Even Roco the PI was surprised that Nancy, in true

770
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.840
shopaholic fashion, could find something to buy it at we store.

771
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.119
It's just like you. I can never eat a stop shopping.

772
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:06.920
He'll be at the gas station. I'll be like, well,

773
00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:12.239
I need to load up on none nor delicious. Rob

774
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.559
told the PI to call him next time Mike was

775
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.239
in the house so he could call and confront Nancy

776
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:20.480
while he was still there. But when Rob tried to call,

777
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.800
she wouldn't pick up. Eventually, Connie answered the phone and

778
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:26.800
told Rob that she was asleep and not feeling well.

779
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.639
Moments later, the private investigator saw Mike's speed out of

780
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.079
the driveway. The next day, Nancy and the children returned

781
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:36.960
to Hong Kong. While they were en route, Rob took

782
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:39.599
off his wedding ring and met with a divorce attorney.

783
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.920
He still loved his wife and was devastated. Friends say

784
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.800
that Rob even considered moving Mike to Hong Kong, even

785
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:49.960
paying for the move as a compromise.

786
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:50.440
Wow.

787
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:52.559
I know that seems crazy, but I read it in

788
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:53.719
two different places.

789
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:54.639
Do seem crazy?

790
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.159
But when Rob picked Nancy and the children up at

791
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.239
the airport, everything seemed back to normal. Utter than normal. Actually,

792
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:04.280
Rob felt hopeful about his marriage for the first time

793
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.480
in a long time. Just a week later, Rob traveled

794
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:10.360
to New York for back surgery, and Nancy would a

795
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.360
long to support him and care for him after the operation.

796
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:15.119
Or did she?

797
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:16.679
I don't know did she?

798
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:19.880
Rob wrote the following in a rare moment of reflection

799
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:22.920
days before he went to the hospital. I keep my

800
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.519
ring in my pocket. By taking it off, I feel

801
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:28.519
that I am emotionally protected against what I know and

802
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.639
against how I feel. The reminders of our marriage are

803
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:34.559
out of sight. Get out of sight reminds me to remember.

804
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:37.320
She remember what got us here to where we are today.

805
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.639
She remember never to forget, never to forget what we had,

806
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.920
and never to forget that. One cannot just wear a ring.

807
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.719
One has to work at it. The early years are

808
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.960
easy and natural, the love and the fun. The later years,

809
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:53.400
the kids are beautiful. Time is short, time is stretched,

810
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:56.000
and something has to give. Do we see it? Do

811
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:59.840
we hear it? Do we speak of it? Communication, remembrance

812
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:03.000
of each other when we are together, what we love

813
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.800
about each other, what we loved about each other, our

814
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.960
time together, exploring each other. That's what gives. Fourteen years

815
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.719
is a long time. Things get lost, people change, communication

816
00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:17.119
is gone. Feelings are hurt. Sometimes the hurt is deep

817
00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:20.719
and painful. People go astray. The heart is so deep,

818
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:23.920
the whole body weeps. The mind's eye likes to torture

819
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:26.719
between images of someone else and images of our love,

820
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:30.000
our beautiful past. But the love is stronger, The love

821
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:33.679
is stronger. It felt right being back together. It's time

822
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:35.800
to try and focus. Can we get back to it?

823
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.360
Can we find a new place. It will be work

824
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.079
for us both. It is work to remember, work to

825
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:43.840
be patient, work to change back to the way we started,

826
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:46.239
and to find a new place. We had a love,

827
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.719
a love through and through. We need to remember, we

828
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:52.079
need to find. That's why I keep my ring in

829
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:55.960
my pocket. Keeps me safe, It brings me love. So

830
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.159
it seems that Rob was willing to forgive Nancy and

831
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.280
wanted to move forward in their marriage. Here's another journal

832
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:04.440
entry demonstrating his love for his wife. What a week.

833
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.400
Even though it is terrible circumstances my operation, I feel

834
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:10.760
like I am in love again. Nancy picked out some

835
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:14.559
cologne for me at Bloomy's. She sleeps facing me, touches me,

836
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:17.440
and holds my hand without me doing it first. She

837
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.039
seems to care about what I'm doing versus not caring

838
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:23.519
if I died. We call the kids together, wake, eat

839
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:27.199
and sleep together. I love being together. It is as

840
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.119
it was ten years ago. But my mind wanders back

841
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:32.280
to what I know. I still don't trust that she

842
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:34.760
is not writing letters or calling her lover when I

843
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:36.960
am tied up with a doctor. What can I do?

844
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:39.519
I can only show my love the real sadness and

845
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.760
emptiness is that I love her but may never trust her.

846
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:48.199
It's the real philosopher, poet, introspection kind of guy, all

847
00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:49.039
of a sudden.

848
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.760
Right, and an investment banker on top of that. Yeah,

849
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.840
Rob was nervous that while he was recuperating in the

850
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:59.280
hospital that Nancy would contact Mike. He reached out to

851
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:02.159
Alpha Group again to arrange a tale for her, but

852
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.480
Frank Shay talked him out of it. If you're going

853
00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:06.840
to stay in your marriage, you've got to trust her,

854
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.239
he said. The surgery went well. Rob was planning on

855
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:12.519
staying in New York for two weeks before returning to

856
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.199
Hong Kong, but Nancy was headed back to be there

857
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.960
for the children's first day of school. The day before

858
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.639
she left for Asia, she snuck out of their hotel

859
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:23.280
room to meet Mike. They went on a carriage ride

860
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.840
around the city. Nancy even paid the driver to go

861
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.519
around the Loop twice. She sobbed into Mike's arms, telling

862
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:32.480
him how controlling an abusive Rob had been to her.

863
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:35.440
Nancy said Rob was an alcoholic and a drug abuser.

864
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:38.480
When he was high or drunk, he forced himself on her.

865
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:41.719
She couldn't live that way any longer, she told Mike.

866
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:44.559
Mike told her to leave Rob, but Nancy said that

867
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.719
she'd lose the children in a divorced settlement. They had

868
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:50.239
sex in the stairway of the Pash Hotel, where Nancy

869
00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:53.320
and Rob were staying, before they parted ways. The day

870
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.519
after Nancy was back in Hong Kong, she made the

871
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:01.039
following Google searches sleeping pills, drug overdose, and medication causing

872
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:03.960
heart attack. She also opened a bank account in her

873
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:06.960
name only and began siphoning money from the joint account

874
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:10.159
into her own. She purchased a secret cell phone just

875
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:14.000
for calls to Mike. Her first call stretched to four hours,

876
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:16.800
though later both would claim they couldn't remember what they'd

877
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:17.920
talked about.

878
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:21.119
Nancy thought she was being meticulous in her planning, but

879
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.039
she didn't realize that Rob had spyware on her laptop

880
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:25.960
and he saw her Google searches.

881
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:28.119
How scary that must have been for him.

882
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:30.320
Oh, incredibly scary if you.

883
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.760
See searches like that on my computer, though you know

884
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.639
it's because I'm doing a true crime podcast. Of course,

885
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:37.119
it would never harm you, right.

886
00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:41.079
Nancy visited a psychiatrist a few days later. She told

887
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.519
the doctor that she was in an abusive marriage and

888
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.559
was having trouble sleeping. He wrote her a prescription for

889
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.119
ambient Rob had returned to Hong Kong. It was his

890
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.039
habit each night before bed to have two fingers of scotch.

891
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:56.280
When he noticed that it tasted peculiar, he didn't finish

892
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.960
the drink, but when he stood up he felt woozy

893
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:02.760
and nearly fell over. By this point, Rob was basically

894
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.199
a detective. While Nancy slept, he rifled through her purse

895
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.159
and found the prescription bottle and a love letter from

896
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:11.960
Mike that was like a gut punch to Rob. It

897
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:15.760
read another day down, another day closer to seeing you.

898
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.400
I am going crazy thinking about you. Whenever a customer

899
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:21.920
comes in the store, I want to say, don't bother me.

900
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:26.039
I am thinking about Nancy. I misholding you hearing your voice.

901
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.719
I love it when you call my name. It makes

902
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:29.320
me melt.

903
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:30.639
Give me a bucket.

904
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:33.880
He had been sending love letters to the children's school.

905
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.960
Rob called his private investigator friend, Frank Shay, and asked

906
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.920
him to see if Mike was still in the US.

907
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:44.159
He was. Shay confirmed. Frank advised Rob to stop drinking

908
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.760
the Scotch and to change his ten million dollar life

909
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:50.119
insurance policy. If he were to die, Nancy would receive

910
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.559
his entire estate, worth as much as twenty million dollars.

911
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:57.360
He advised Rob to submit hair, blood, and urine samples

912
00:47:57.559 --> 00:48:01.000
along with some of his scotch to allow for drug testing,

913
00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:04.519
but Rob threw himself back into work, occupied with a

914
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:08.679
huge one hundred million dollar deal. His new celebratory Porsche

915
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:12.280
was also a distraction. When Frank reminded him days later,

916
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:14.480
Rob promised he would take care of it, but he

917
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.400
never sent the samples to the lab. I don't understand

918
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.719
why Rob wouldn't just get out if you felt like

919
00:48:20.119 --> 00:48:22.719
there was a even a chance that your partner was

920
00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.039
researching ways to kill you like I wouldn't. I wouldn't

921
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:27.400
be sticking around and just.

922
00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:30.400
Taking something like we've been married for a long time.

923
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:33.440
If you saw those surges, I might well obviously a

924
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.519
true crime podcaster, wouldn't you, because you just wouldn't think

925
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:38.599
that I would try to kill you.

926
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:41.880
I would write no, But but he knows she's having

927
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.679
an affair on him, Like it just seems I don't know,

928
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:46.440
he seems a little naive.

929
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:48.840
Think it takes a long I mean, we do these

930
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.840
cases every week. It takes a long time, I think

931
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.239
for people to really believe that this person that you

932
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:56.519
love and have made a commitment to would try to

933
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:57.119
take your life.

934
00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.840
That's very true. The Kissel's marriage seemed to be on

935
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:03.719
the Nancy was more focused and attentive, even agreeing to

936
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:07.920
marriage counseling, although one session unraveled into a screaming match,

937
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:10.880
with Nancy declaring she wanted out, but the very next

938
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.440
day she apologized, sincerely telling Rob she loved him and

939
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.639
wanted their marriage to work. Nancy, it turns out, was

940
00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:20.679
also a bit of a detective. She went through their

941
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:23.880
phone bill and found an unknown number dialed several times.

942
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:27.239
She had Mike call the number from the States Alpha

943
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:29.880
Group Investigations. The voice on the other end of the

944
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.119
line answered. Rob noticed frequent cash withdrawals from their account

945
00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:36.599
and accused Nancy of sending money to Mike.

946
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:38.920
She was, but she denied it.

947
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:43.159
The confrontation escalated into a shoving match, after which Rob

948
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.400
cut up all but one of her credit cards. Soon after,

949
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.119
the Kissels were invited to an exclusive reception honoring former

950
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:53.559
President George H. W. Bush. Rob was a big fan

951
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:57.079
of his and excited to attend. Nancy was also looking

952
00:49:57.119 --> 00:49:59.880
forward to the event. She bought a special new dress

953
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:03.320
the event, a dress that highlighted her shoulders. In the

954
00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:06.119
weeks since she had gotten the three tattoos, Rob hadn't

955
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:09.320
yet seen them. When Nancy spun around showing him her

956
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:12.840
new dress, Rob grew enraged when he saw the tattoos.

957
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.800
He blew up. It might have been the final straw.

958
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:18.079
He had tried to be patient with her, but this

959
00:50:18.199 --> 00:50:22.000
show of rebellion was too much. They shouted and screamed

960
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.679
obscenities at each other. Nancy later claimed that Rob ripped

961
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:28.440
the dress from her body. They were late to the reception,

962
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.199
but once there, Nancy, in a much better mood, brazenly

963
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:34.920
tapped President Bush on the shoulder and asked if he

964
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.639
might say hello to her husband and pose for a picture.

965
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.239
He kindly obliged, I will post that picture interesting. Just

966
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.440
days later, Nancy hatched a new plan. She missed Mike

967
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:48.119
and knew Rob would see through any trip to the States.

968
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:51.159
She called her best friend Bryna and proposed that she

969
00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:54.880
fly into San Francisco and they could get boob jobs together.

970
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.800
It's a job, because we've said this several times because

971
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.800
rest dougmentations sounded funny to say boob jobs either, but

972
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.920
they both sound they were getting cosmetic surgery on their breast, gotcha.

973
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:11.800
But the plan was for Mike to meet Nancy there.

974
00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:15.719
Right Unbeknownst to Nancy, Brina and Rob had been emailing

975
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:18.960
and talking for months about the state of the Kissel's marriage.

976
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:22.320
Briina had become his confidant and in many ways, his

977
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:23.800
source of comfort.

978
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.840
Which is a little weird too, a lot weird.

979
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:30.400
Rob had become obsessed with finding proof that Nancy was

980
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.280
still carrying on with Mike. He found it one day,

981
00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:35.400
in the form of a cell phone bill for an

982
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:38.719
unfamiliar number. Then he found the cell phone hidden in

983
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:39.760
her underwear drawer.

984
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:41.480
It's like the worst place to hide anything.

985
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:44.960
Yeah, terrible. This was a pivotal moment for Rob. He

986
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:48.199
woke up. He finally knew that his marriage was over.

987
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:50.519
Okay, I realized. I think I said a few minutes

988
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:52.400
ago that he really thought.

989
00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:53.599
The marriage was real.

990
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:55.559
He really, really really thinks it's over.

991
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:58.119
He took the phone and threw it into the street,

992
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.960
never uttering a word to his wife. Nancy panicked when

993
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:05.280
she realized the phone was missing. She called Mike collect

994
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.280
from a payphone several times a day.

995
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:11.440
Okay, so she's calling Mike from Hong Kong to the stage.

996
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:14.400
Oh gosh, and like she's calling him several times a day.

997
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:14.880
Yeah.

998
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:18.440
His phone bill that month was over ten thousand dollars.

999
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:20.559
Oh my, Mike was not a wealthy man.

1000
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:24.480
On Thursday, October twenty third, Nancy visited her doctor and

1001
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.800
confided to her that her husband had been physically abusive

1002
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:31.320
to her. The doctor noted no apparent injuries and wrote

1003
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:36.440
in her notes quote alleged assault, subsequent violations, and low libido.

1004
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:40.440
Nancy admitted that the ambient wasn't effective and asked for

1005
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:45.599
a stronger medication. She suggested rofinol, also known as Rufe's

1006
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:48.920
or the date rape drug, illegal in the US but

1007
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:52.679
not in Asia. That same week, Nancy also returned to

1008
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:57.320
the psychiatrist complaining of a very tenacious sleep problem. She

1009
00:52:57.480 --> 00:53:02.960
was given three medications, lauraz sam axetol, and amatryptolene. The

1010
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:05.559
combinations of all of the drugs Nancy now had in

1011
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.679
her medicine cabinet, when taken together, could definitely cause death.

1012
00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:12.760
A few days later, Rob asked a recruiter he knew

1013
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:15.559
to fax him a list of prominent divorce attorneys in

1014
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:19.159
Hong Kong. When nothing came through, he called to remind him,

1015
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.159
only to learn the list had already been sent. The

1016
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.239
recruiter read the number back, and Rob realized with dread

1017
00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:29.400
it had gone straight to his home fax machine. Nancy

1018
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.840
almost certainly had it in her hands. After leaving the

1019
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:37.199
United Jewish Congregation. On Sunday, October second June, the middle

1020
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:40.159
Kissel child had a play date with a friend, Leah.

1021
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.679
Her father. Forbes Magazine Hong Kong bureau chief Andrew Tanzer

1022
00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.199
dropped his daughter off and stayed for a while to

1023
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.920
talk with Rob. Soon their daughters delivered them pink milkshakes

1024
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.760
from the kitchen, made by Nancy. It tasted sickly sweet,

1025
00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:58.400
made from strawberries, all the ice cream remnants in the freezer,

1026
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:02.559
and crushed cookies. Tanzer drank his quickly and said he'd

1027
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:04.679
return in a couple of hours to pick up Lea.

1028
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:07.960
When he got home, he was overwhelmed by sleepiness and

1029
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:10.400
laid down on the couch. He was in such a

1030
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:12.920
deep sleep his wife couldn't wake him up. Hours later

1031
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:15.760
to pick up lea. Rob took Rice to the park

1032
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.360
when a colleague, David No, called him to discuss business.

1033
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:22.280
Rob was usually the sharpest guy in the room, but

1034
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.559
on this call he was confused and slurring his words.

1035
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:29.159
David was concerned because they had an important conference call

1036
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:32.239
scheduled for later that night. At six p m. With

1037
00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:35.679
Connie off for the day, Nancy asked the housekeeper Min

1038
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.039
to collect Rice from the park and take him to

1039
00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:40.920
a friend's picnic, with strict orders he be home by

1040
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:43.920
seven p m. Min asked Rob if she could wear

1041
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:46.159
his watch so she could keep track of the time.

1042
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.880
He took off his fifteen thousand dollars Cardier watch and

1043
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:52.280
handed it to her, and then headed back up to

1044
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:55.840
his apartment. At six oh six p m. Security cameras

1045
00:54:55.880 --> 00:54:59.360
captured Rob entering the elevator. The next morning, when the

1046
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:02.360
children asked where Rob was, Nancy said he had left

1047
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:05.519
for work because he had an early meeting. Min thought

1048
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:07.599
it was odd that his watch was still sitting on

1049
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:10.000
the counter where she'd left it the night before. He

1050
00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:13.320
never left home without it. Nancy asked Connie to pick

1051
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.079
up some bleach when she dropped Rice off at preschool.

1052
00:55:16.599 --> 00:55:19.880
After the kids left for school, Nancy retreated to her bedroom,

1053
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:23.000
telling Min not to disturb her or clean her bedroom

1054
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:25.719
that day. She then spent the next half hour on

1055
00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:29.199
the phone with Mike. Next, she sent an email canceling

1056
00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:32.360
an upcoming lunch she had scheduled with Scottie the Clown,

1057
00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:34.960
who she had booked for an upcoming event at the

1058
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.920
Hong Kong International School. She wrote, my husband is not

1059
00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:41.679
well and I need to take care of some things. Sorry,

1060
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.480
I will be in touch soon. She ordered some packing

1061
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:47.360
boxes to be delivered to her apartment, and then called

1062
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:51.719
the building's superintendent to rent an additional storage unit. Around

1063
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:54.079
ten a m Nancy left to go shopping at a

1064
00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:59.079
home furnishing store and bought several items, including sheets, bedding, pillows,

1065
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.159
a chaise lounge, and a rug. Back at the apartment,

1066
00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:05.199
she asked Min to go out to buy rope, packing tape,

1067
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:08.639
and plastic sheeting. Nancy was in the bedroom for the

1068
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:11.400
remainder of the day. I wonder what Min thought at

1069
00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:13.480
this point. Could you go buy me some rope, some

1070
00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:17.039
plastic sheeting, some pate and don't come in the bedroom. Well.

1071
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:20.199
This was never stated in the book, but It's possible

1072
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:22.519
that they were getting ready for a move, because remember

1073
00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:25.480
Rob got the promotion right and they were going to

1074
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:26.840
go to Taiwan, Okay.

1075
00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:30.400
At seven pm, she called her father where we began

1076
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:33.679
this episode, crying as she recounted the terrible fight that

1077
00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:36.880
she and Rob had had the night before. Afterwards, she

1078
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.159
tried calling Brina. It was only five thirty am in

1079
00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:44.239
San Francisco, so Briana didn't answer, but Nancy left a message.

1080
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:47.360
You've got to call me. It's very important. I just

1081
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:49.920
called my dad and he's flying down here. Rob and

1082
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.280
I had a fight. He chased me around the room.

1083
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:55.239
He wanted to have sex. He beat me up, Call

1084
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:59.079
me please. When she woke up, Briina called Nancy, who

1085
00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:01.599
told her about the fight and how violent Rob had

1086
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:05.880
been chasing her around, punching, hitting and kicking her. Briana

1087
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:08.280
knew that Rob was going to tell Nancy that weekend

1088
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:11.719
that he wanted a divorce. Nancy's story didn't seem to

1089
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.760
add up. If Rob was planning on leaving Nancy, why

1090
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:18.320
would he be chasing her around demanding sex. She tried

1091
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:21.559
calling him and emailing him several times with no response.

1092
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:25.840
The next morning, Nancy was still acting strangely. She asked

1093
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:28.199
Min to go buy as much peppermine oil as she

1094
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:31.880
could get at the pharmacy. At nine am, Nancy walked

1095
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:35.519
into her doctor's office, hunched over and walking slowly. She

1096
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:38.599
explained to the doctor that her husband had beaten her badly,

1097
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:41.559
punching and kicking her, and he had tried to force

1098
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:44.840
her to have sex. Nancy's only visible wound was a

1099
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.960
small puncture on her hand between her thumb and forefinger.

1100
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:50.800
She explained that the only weapon she'd had in the

1101
00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:53.840
bedroom during the assault was a fork, and rob had

1102
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:57.000
stabbed her with it. The doctor observed that her entire

1103
00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:00.559
body was tender to the touch, despite only a few bruises.

1104
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:04.360
There were rugburns on Nancy's knees and a large bruise

1105
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:07.840
on her right shin. She demanded x rays because she

1106
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.639
was sure her ribs or collar bone was broken. Neither were.

1107
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:15.039
When she was finished at the doctor's office, Nancy bought

1108
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:18.599
two more rugs. Connie noticed a bleached spot on the

1109
00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:21.679
carpet and the smell of incense coming from the bedroom.

1110
00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:26.239
It was odd because Nancy had never burned incense before. Later,

1111
00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:29.880
Nancy confided in Connie about the fight, insisting on its

1112
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:33.440
severity and once again claiming she had broken a wrist

1113
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:37.079
or her ribs. Connie was surprised because neither she nor

1114
00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:40.519
min had heard the fight. Nancy said Rob had stormed

1115
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:43.079
out of the apartment in anger, and she thought it

1116
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:47.280
entirely possible he wouldn't return, and after the explosive fight,

1117
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:50.039
she wasn't sure she even wanted to see him again.

1118
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:53.480
And that, my friends, is where we're going to end.

1119
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:56.199
Really, we don't get to find out what happened to

1120
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:57.599
Rob until part two.

1121
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:00.840
Okay, exactly do you think is coming back?

1122
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:03.000
No? I do not think he's coming back.

1123
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:05.639
What do you think drew Rob and Nancy together in

1124
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:07.559
the first place, because they're pretty different.

1125
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:09.719
I mean, it must have had something to do with

1126
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:13.159
meeting in the nude on a nude beach. Maybe some

1127
00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.960
instant attraction there, but no, I don't know. I mean, sometimes,

1128
00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:19.360
you know, opposites do attract, and maybe he was rebelling,

1129
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:21.840
you know, from his family a little bit because the

1130
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.199
expectation was that he would marry someone who was ivy

1131
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:27.679
league and you know, upper class, So it could be

1132
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:28.719
part of that as well.

1133
00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:31.320
I'm not sure. If I did the best job describing

1134
00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:33.880
Nancy at the beginning, But they did have a lot

1135
00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:36.920
of fun together. She could be the life of the party. Yeah,

1136
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:39.199
and I think that he was attracted to that. But

1137
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:42.079
in a lot of ways, I think Andrew, the older brother,

1138
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:47.519
and Nancy were more alike and Hayley, Andrew's spouse, was

1139
00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:49.960
maybe a better fit for a Rob. Like they were both,

1140
00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:53.880
you know, very career oriented and very successful, and the

1141
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:56.559
other two were you know, kind of like a good

1142
00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:57.239
time Yeah.

1143
00:59:57.360 --> 00:59:57.880
Interesting.

1144
00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:00.559
Do you think that living in a well the extra

1145
01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:04.239
patriot community in Hong Kong had any impact on their relationship?

1146
01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:07.039
Well maybe it probably, I'm sure it had an impact

1147
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:10.320
on the relationship. But also him working sixteen hours a day, Yeah,

1148
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:13.000
I'm sure had an impact on the relationship. But her

1149
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:16.559
being there in a foreign country while her husband is

1150
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:20.360
basically gone all the time, that's got to be really challenging.

1151
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:23.559
I feel some sympathy for her, I agree in that situation.

1152
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:26.639
Yeah, definitely. Why do you think that Rob didn't end

1153
01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:27.519
the marriage sooner?

1154
01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:29.960
I don't know, I mean, as soon as you said

1155
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:33.599
he hired a private investigator. I'm like, at that point,

1156
01:00:33.719 --> 01:00:36.480
if you if you don't trust your spouse enough that

1157
01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:39.039
you feel you need to hire a private investigator. I

1158
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:42.039
feel like it should be over, you know, It's just

1159
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:43.840
I don't know why he didn't leave for sooner.

1160
01:00:43.920 --> 01:00:46.480
Do you think that the Kissel's coming from, you know,

1161
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:51.199
this wealthy family and divorce is probably very frowned upon,

1162
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:52.719
had something to do with it.

1163
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:53.519
Could? Yeah? Could?

1164
01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.880
It would be an indicator of failure. And remember they were,

1165
01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:00.480
you know, trained from an early age to succeed everything

1166
01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:03.039
they did, So maybe he just didn't want to admit

1167
01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:03.599
to defeat.

1168
01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:07.039
Yeah, that's a good observation. One question I have is

1169
01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:10.039
that you alluded to a few times in your script

1170
01:01:10.079 --> 01:01:13.119
that she claimed that Rob beat her. Is there any

1171
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:14.679
evidence that that happened.

1172
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:17.800
There's not, but it seems like maybe she was trying

1173
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:21.880
to lay the groundwork for yes, I was a battered spouse. Okay,

1174
01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:25.079
But it's so hard in these situations when we're telling

1175
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:29.880
these stories because there's not really evidence either way. And

1176
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:32.079
I always want to believe people who say that they're

1177
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:35.880
victims of domestic violence. But really, Rob does seem like

1178
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:39.440
a nice guy. He was very invested in his job

1179
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:43.000
and you know, probably didn't give his family as much

1180
01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:45.960
attention as he could have, but he did try to.

1181
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.239
Yeah. Well, that was my other question for you was

1182
01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:51.239
about whether Rob you thought he was a good husband

1183
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:54.000
or not. Obviously he worked way too much and probably

1184
01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:57.000
that took him away from time with family and things

1185
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.679
like that. But was there any evidence did he have

1186
01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:02.800
a fan or did he do anything else that made

1187
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:04.360
him a bad husband? Do you think?

1188
01:02:04.599 --> 01:02:06.440
We'll talk about that a little bit in part two.

1189
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:09.840
I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but I

1190
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:13.119
don't think that he was a perfect husband, sure, but

1191
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:14.639
I do think he was a pretty good guy, and

1192
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:15.800
I think he tried his best.

1193
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:16.239
Yeah.

1194
01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:18.559
You know, I think this case was, you know, twenty

1195
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:21.039
years ago, and I know it's not that long ago,

1196
01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:24.079
but even twenty years ago, I think a lot of

1197
01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:27.559
men thought that their primary objective was to make money

1198
01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.159
for their family, right right, And he definitely was doing

1199
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:33.559
He was making up boatload of money, seems and his

1200
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:39.800
earning potential seemed limitless, almost because his bonuses were literally

1201
01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:44.039
millions of dollars a year, Which brings me to the

1202
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:47.280
question to you, like, we keep doing these stories about

1203
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:53.039
these wealthy people. What are we doing wrong? We're doing

1204
01:02:53.079 --> 01:02:56.199
all right? But like these people who have so much money,

1205
01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:58.800
they just don't know what to do with it. Yeah,

1206
01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:02.119
it's insane to me, It really is so ira. In

1207
01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:06.480
this case, Nancy's father, I'm not sure how close they were.

1208
01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:08.599
I think Nancy didn't have a lot of people that

1209
01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:10.360
she was close to in her life. You know, she

1210
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:13.480
wasn't really raised by her father. But he rushed to

1211
01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:16.239
her side, and you know, he went to Hong Kong.

1212
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:20.199
And I thought that was really sweet. Yeah, and just

1213
01:03:20.199 --> 01:03:23.199
wanted what like, in that position, God forbid if one

1214
01:03:23.239 --> 01:03:26.000
of our children, you know, called us in that situation

1215
01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:29.000
where they're being abused by their spouse. Yeah, I can't

1216
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.119
imagine how hard that would be to hear.

1217
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:32.960
Oh, that would be really hard. And yeah, I would

1218
01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:35.400
jump on a plane in a minute, you know, to

1219
01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:36.719
help with something like that.

1220
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.639
Definitely. Well, be sure to come back for part two

1221
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:42.239
because there are some things that are really going to

1222
01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:42.840
surprise you.

1223
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:44.480
I'm just going to say that I'll be here.

1224
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.679
I think about this a lot. But if I were

1225
01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:57.920
to die, please don't look at my Google searches.

1226
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:01.880
Well now I'm going to You can't just say that.

1227
01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:05.280
But it really I think about this all the time.

1228
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:08.320
Like the things that we google are so private, you know,

1229
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:10.320
and I always forget to clean up. I don't even

1230
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:12.320
know how you really I clean out my cash once.

1231
01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:14.880
How do you delete your Google searches? Or do you?

1232
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:17.559
I mean, I think it's I honestly don't know either.

1233
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:19.840
I don't really do it because you can't really do

1234
01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:20.519
it permanently.

1235
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:24.559
It'd be hard to do permanently. Yes, I'm sure.

1236
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:27.679
Do you ever do incognito searches?

1237
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:32.079
Uh? Not that I can recall. I'm not going to

1238
01:04:32.119 --> 01:04:34.519
say I never do. Maybe I do, but off the

1239
01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:34.880
top of.

1240
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:36.960
My head, I'm going to admit something to you all,

1241
01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:43.559
But sometimes I go incognito if I'm playing the wordle, oh,

1242
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:47.639
I'm about to like get it wrong and like I'm

1243
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:50.000
not gonna lose wordle, So I'll go to Then you

1244
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:51.320
thought I was going somewhere else.

1245
01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:56.119
I did not think that you were going to go there.

1246
01:04:56.280 --> 01:04:59.800
But I'm admitting to my deepest, darkest secret.

1247
01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:03.159
Dark that's down. How can you sleep at night?

1248
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:07.400
Sometimes I don't. But it's not because of that. It's

1249
01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:08.079
like the other things.

1250
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:11.639
How often, like what percentage of the wordles that you do?

1251
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:13.599
Say that you have to do that very often.

1252
01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:16.639
Sometimes I'm super sharp on the wordle, but other days

1253
01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:18.679
it's just like I think it depends on what time

1254
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:20.559
I do it, because you know, sometimes I'm up way

1255
01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:22.719
too late and it's like two am, and I should

1256
01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:25.760
be like, I'll do the world. Yeah, it's probably not

1257
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:27.679
like my peak brain performance.

1258
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:31.199
Right, does the word'll update like at midnight? So oh yes, okay,

1259
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:33.519
so you get in on it early sometimes.

1260
01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:36.400
To New York Times too. We like a puzzle. I

1261
01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:39.159
don't know if you have played Pips. I knew it.

1262
01:05:39.559 --> 01:05:41.159
You told me about it. I did it like once

1263
01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:42.119
or twice. That's all.

1264
01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:44.559
I really like it. It's really fun. It's like a

1265
01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:47.079
little math game. So if you like the wordle, I

1266
01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:51.199
love connections wordle and Pips is really fun too. But

1267
01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:52.920
I don't know. Those are the only ones I do.

1268
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:54.719
Do you do any other daily puzzles?

1269
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:58.719
I don't like. I play Sudoco once in a while.

1270
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:01.719
He means to do I can't.

1271
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.440
I can never say that. Yeah, I do that once

1272
01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:08.119
in a while. That's really about it. On a daily basis.

1273
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:09.199
I would say, do you.

1274
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.039
Have any embarrassing Google searches that you want to admit to?

1275
01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.480
You know, this is really dumb. But a lot of

1276
01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:17.119
my Google searches that are I don't know if this

1277
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:22.519
is embarrassing, but I google like words, the definitions of

1278
01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:25.360
words that I should totally know. Yeah, but I'll be

1279
01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:27.519
about to type a word in an email and I'll

1280
01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:31.039
be like, wait, does that mean what I think? That's

1281
01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:31.639
not embarrassing.

1282
01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:33.840
Okay, we'll give us some of the words.

1283
01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:36.880
The last one I did that was entice, which I

1284
01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:39.119
totally know the meaning of the word entice, but for

1285
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:41.639
some reason, I just felt like I had to look

1286
01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:42.440
it up to be sure.

1287
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.360
I have a list of embarrassing Google searches, kind of

1288
01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:48.039
like people admitting online like things that they've searched, And

1289
01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:49.840
this one hits home to me. It's similar to what

1290
01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:53.800
you said. Recently, I forgot the word wreath, so I

1291
01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:57.880
searched Christmas circles and it worked like things like that.

1292
01:06:57.920 --> 01:06:59.920
Before I do things like that's just like the word

1293
01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:03.000
just totally leaves your mind. Yeah. Or one time I

1294
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:06.760
was in college really late typing a paper and I

1295
01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.039
forgot how to spell the word was that's like w

1296
01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:12.280
usy it was.

1297
01:07:12.559 --> 01:07:15.519
It was so yeah, it totally happens like words start

1298
01:07:15.559 --> 01:07:17.519
to like you start saying a word in your head

1299
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:19.400
over and over and you're like, that doesn't sound real,

1300
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:21.039
Like that doesn't sound like a real word.

1301
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.280
Yeah, exactly. Here's a few more. Why does my cat

1302
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:26.239
stare at me like that? That's something that I would

1303
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.199
totally google. Well, I remember one time I think you

1304
01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:31.920
were away and it scared me, Like I think it

1305
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:34.559
was Clover and she was staring at the wall literally

1306
01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:37.559
like two hours, yeah, and I was like, what do

1307
01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:40.400
you see that I can't see? And like I get

1308
01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:43.079
a flash that I'm looking at the wall is just

1309
01:07:43.199 --> 01:07:43.840
kind of frightening.

1310
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:44.599
It freaks you out?

1311
01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:51.519
Yeah, yeah. Can you survive a zombie apopcalypse with just cheese? Plants?

1312
01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:54.400
Feel pain? Why do I burp so much after kissing

1313
01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:57.880
my partner? That's a weird one. How do I tell

1314
01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:01.199
if my roommate is secretly plotting against me? They probably are?

1315
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:01.679
Probably?

1316
01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:04.840
Is it a legal to marry a sandwich? Why does

1317
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:08.559
me sound like a foghorn? Can I get abs from

1318
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:12.639
eating cookies? Absolutely? Yes, I mean look at our abs.

1319
01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:16.359
They're amazing. Do you fish get lonely? It's sad because

1320
01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:20.000
they probably do. We always used to always have one

1321
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:22.680
goldfish on our counter yeah, and we got cats and

1322
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:24.479
we decided that that probably.

1323
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:25.479
Was probably not a good combination.

1324
01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:28.560
But if you have some embarrassing google so we would

1325
01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:31.439
love to know, We would love to hear them. Yes,

1326
01:08:32.199 --> 01:08:37.880
but having the podcast is such like a good Yeah, yeah,

1327
01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:39.760
it's just for the it's just for the podcast. But

1328
01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:42.840
I had to google something for part two of this

1329
01:08:43.039 --> 01:08:46.600
that I was like horrified that I had to google it.

1330
01:08:46.600 --> 01:08:49.920
It wasn't embarrassing as much as like, uh, I don't

1331
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:52.039
want to be too graphic, but it was a graphic

1332
01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:54.880
sexual thing. I was like, oh my god, please forgive me.

1333
01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:56.960
Did you use incognito?

1334
01:08:57.079 --> 01:09:00.399
I didn't use incognito, but I was like, okay, this

1335
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:02.920
isn't you know, it's just because of the podcast.

1336
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:05.159
Well, I'm just going to tell you now because you

1337
01:09:05.199 --> 01:09:07.520
may be wanting to look at my Google searches. Now.

1338
01:09:07.720 --> 01:09:10.520
My next case we're talking about breast augmentation surgeries or

1339
01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.760
jobs or boob jobs. My next case heavily involves breast

1340
01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:16.880
augmentation surgeries, so there may be some searches on my

1341
01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:18.880
laptop around that topic.

1342
01:09:19.079 --> 01:09:21.239
I was going to ask you about that. This is

1343
01:09:21.319 --> 01:09:25.000
embarrassing not for me, but for like I've had. Actually

1344
01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:28.680
I don't look at yours ever, but like a friend's

1345
01:09:28.760 --> 01:09:32.279
husband will follow me on Instagram or something, and then

1346
01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:35.920
I'll just look at the people that they're following, and

1347
01:09:35.960 --> 01:09:40.079
they're following like Sally x x x or something like that.

1348
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.640
Have you ever seen a friend or anyone follow like

1349
01:09:42.680 --> 01:09:44.880
and you see them following a bunch of like, you know,

1350
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:47.880
hot girls, and I'm just kind of horrified by that.

1351
01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:52.600
Yeah, and like their spouse isn't on Instagram or face like.

1352
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:54.479
One of them is, and I'm like, how would you

1353
01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:56.840
do that? How is your wife supposed to feel about that?

1354
01:09:57.399 --> 01:09:59.439
And it was like the one person I'm thinking of

1355
01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:03.439
it was several hot babs call it.

1356
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:05.399
Wow, Yeah, that's pretty.

1357
01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:08.680
I guess I haven't even checked yours, So you shouldn't.

1358
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:09.800
You should just trust me.

1359
01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:12.399
I do. I do, and I really do, Like I

1360
01:10:12.399 --> 01:10:15.279
don't know, I respect people's privacy, yeah, and I just

1361
01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:17.880
wouldn't do that, but you don't give me reason to.

1362
01:10:18.119 --> 01:10:21.520
So again, I'm sitting here in a place of right,

1363
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:25.159
Uh what's the word privilege? Yeah, because I know that I,

1364
01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:28.319
you know, have an honorable husband as far as you know,

1365
01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:31.159
as far as I know, he presents himself that way anyway.

1366
01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:33.079
All right, Well, that's all we have for today.

1367
01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:35.399
If you'd like to listen to part two of this

1368
01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:38.359
episode right now, you can join us on Patreon dot

1369
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:41.479
com slash Love Mary Kill. We have one tier five

1370
01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:44.279
dollars a month and you get early ad free access

1371
01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:46.279
and a monthly bonus episode.

1372
01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:48.479
And if you don't want to support us on Patreon,

1373
01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:50.960
that is completely fine. But the best way to support

1374
01:10:50.960 --> 01:10:54.479
the podcast, our podcast, or any podcast is to leave

1375
01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:58.520
us a five star review on Apple podcast or Spotify

1376
01:10:58.720 --> 01:11:01.720
or wherever you listen. Find us on social media, or

1377
01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:05.600
send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com,

1378
01:11:05.640 --> 01:11:08.600
and find us on YouTube. We always post our episodes

1379
01:11:08.600 --> 01:11:11.720
a day early on YouTube. Until next time, don't kill

1380
01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:13.199
your wife and don't kill your husband.