Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's that. Some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary. Kill Happy Friday, Rich. Happy Friday, Tina. We are recording this on Friday, October third, a very important day. Do you know why today is so important? I have no idea, but I bet I'll find out. Because Taylor Swift dropped her new album last night and midnight.

0:42 Really, how do you like it? So I'm not as Swift. Ye, I admire Taylor Swift. I think she's great. I think she's really talented and prolific. She keeps coming out an album after album twelve. I was still up at twelve. I'm always up at twelve, and I was probably one of the first to billion people listen to it. I didn't listen to the whole thing. I just passed forward to every song. Yeah, I've thought it was great. Yeah, I didn't love Dead Poets Society as much, but I think this one is a good mix. Is Dead Poets Society another of her albums, It is. Not Dead Poets Society it is the Tortured Poets Department. Oh okay, so I'm sure you listened to it when you got out this morning.

1:24 I did not, but I didn't even know about it until you told me. But now I'm I'm gonna go listen to it. Are you really? Yeah? I gotta go. Have you ever listened to an entire Taylor Swift album? I think I have, maybe once or twice, but I can't. I don't couldn't tell you which one. I don't even know why. Something led me to one of her albums at one point. Are you excited for her engagement? Oh? So excited. I can't wait to go. Do we know when the date is yet? Nope, but I'm pretty sure we will not get an invitation. What is the last album that you listened to? I actually listened to a brand new album from Jeff Tweety. Jeff Tweety is from and he came out with a new album. It's like a triple album. There's like two hours worth of music.

2:05 So you prefer music from people that are sixty and older? Hell, I do not discriminate. I do not age discriminate in my music selection. I think you listen to a lot of older music. I do. But Jeff, I love Wilco and Jeff Tweety and I just heard about this new album that I didn't know about it. It's really good. Didn't I get it? Get you a book from Jeff Tweety? He did. He's written a few books that I've read a couple of them. Yeaheah. Do you recommend? Yeah, he's a really good writer, good guy. So I'm a pretty lazy music listener. I go to Spotify and I just do a lot of like Mellow Evening Playlist. I've been listening to that a lot lately, and it just I think it's an amalgamation of things that they know that I like. Yeah, I think you'll be sad to hear. I just heard yesterday that the Yacht Rock Festival is in danger of canceling because so many artists have pulled out of it.

2:53 So because they're so old. I there's some controversy or something. It's in some Caribbean country or something. Almost by Venezuela. I don't know, but almost every artist has pulled out, but the organizers say they are going forward with it. Yeah, it's getting scary by Venezuela maybe, and I'm not sure if that's why. And I didn't even realize that Venezuela was considered to be a Caribbean country until I did Amy Bradley case. Recently, we've learned really bad at geography. We really have learned a lot. So this is we're nearing our two hundredth episode, which is pretty cool for three years of work. Something that makes my blood run cold is when someone says to us, well, I've been listening since day one, or a new listener will say, oh, I went back and started at episode one, and I pray for you.

3:41 Don't do that. Don't do that. I feel like in the last maybe six episodes, we've kind of figured things out, but I know some of those episodes are a little hard to listen to. So we appreciate, we appreciate your support. For sure, we're not going to take them down, though we're leaving them out there. For post there. I tempted to leave them or take them down, but you have convinced me that it's better to leave them up. Something I don't know if I've ever said this, but something that happened when we first started recording. People used to kind of give me a hard time about interrupting all the time. The reason that that happened. I used to listen to the podcast Morbid all the time. I was a big fan of Morbid, and they had like kind of more of a conversation, and they interrupted each other all the time to talk about pizza or dogs in the middle of a true crime talk. And so I really enjoyed their podcast. So I kind of thought it was okay for me to do that too. But I have learned, and I think I think we've gotten a lot better, for sure. Yeah, for sure, we still have a lot to learn. But I did bring you a snack today. I would like a snack.

4:42 I would like a snack. Okay, do you have any guesses what it might be? No idea? It is a strawberry milkshake. Oh wow. Remember the significance of the strawberry milkshake. To be honest with you, I don't. Wow. That was only two days ago. I So Rob Kissel had a strawberry milkshake and one of his friends was over and Nancy made strawberry milkshakes. And remember the neighbor got sick, Well, he didn't get sick, but he passed out and his wife couldn't wake him up, and then Rob went to the playground and he seemed to be kind of out of it. He had one of his work.

5:22 Had a call later that night, and his colleague was worried. Exactly, it's all coming back to me. Okay, do you want to try my milkshake? I sure do. Okay, did you like the milkshake? That was amazing? Oh, really good. I mean I'm usually normally like a chocolate milkshake kind of guy, but that was so refreshing. And I did not put he crushed up cookies. If you remember that, there were crushed up cookies in the milkshake. But there's not a recipe. I just use some milk and some ice cream, and I put a lot of strawberries in it because I wanted you to get this strawberry flavor. Really good, good. I'm glad you liked it. If you're not following us on Instagram, you might want to follow us on Instagram because I'm trying to do maybe once a month, I'm going to do like a giveaway. I posted a picture of the milkshake and I said, the first person to guess the case, I'll send you an Amazon gift card.

6:17 That's kind of a fun thing to do. Yeah, when there's a possibility that someone could guess from this nack, maybe you could do that too. Yeah, great idea. Go follow us on Instagram. Do you want to give us a summary of part one? Sure? Andrew and Robert Kissel were brothers born four years apart into a wealthy but intensely competitive family. Their father, Bill was a hard driving businessman who demanded success from his sons, and the brothers carried that same ambition into adulthood. Andrew looked for ways to cut corners to earn success, while Rob was willing to do the hard work. Rob married Nancy Keishan in nineteen eighty nine. She was free spirited and impulsive, a sharp contrast to his serious career focus nature. As Rob's investment banking career soared, the couple relocated to Hong Kong to ride the wave of Asia's booming financial markets, but the move came at a cost.

7:10 Rob's long hours left Nancy isolated, frustrated, and increasingly resentful. After the tsar's outbreak sent her and the children to Vermont, Nancy met home theater installer Mike del Priori. Their affair began quickly, and Nancy confided in him that Rob was abusive. Meanwhile, Rob, already suspicious, confirmed her infidelity by hiring a private investigator and secretly installing spyware on her computer. On November three, two thousand and three, Rob's daughter brought him a strawberry milkshake prepared by Nancy, a drink that left both Rob and a visiting neighbor strangely drowsy. When we left off, Nancy had phoned her father, Ira Kishan in Chicago, tearfully claiming that after a violent, abusive fight, Rob had stormed out and hadn't read.

8:01 One person that I forgot to mention is Jane. Jane is also a sister to Andrew and Rob, five years younger than Rob, and we will talk more about her in part two. Okay, so it. Seems that Nancy put something in the milkshake, right. You took the milkshake and you drank half of it, I trust, and you didn't even ask me if I put anything in it. But were you surprised that she gave this milkshake to some other guy and and her husband. Yeah, that seems very strange. I thought that at the time. You said it like that does not seem very smart if you're trying to poison your husband. Or maybe she was just drugging him, not necessarily poisoning him. Yea, she was giving him something too, a sedative to make him sleepy. But still I was surprised that she would you give it to the neighbor as well. Yeah, maybe she thought that it was more likely that Rob would drink the milkshake if one was given to both.

8:54 Yeah, that makes sense. So riina o'she Nancy's childhood best friend, was basically a detective to she thought something was off about Nancy's story. She called her again, trying to sort out the facts. Nancy claimed that after Rob had assaulted her, he ran out of the apartment without shoes, keys, or even his wallet, and she hadn't heard from him since. Now. Briana she had become kind of a confidante of Rob, right, even though she was Nancy's friend. Rob had called her and they had started talking pretty regularly. Right, okay exactly. Briana called Rob's Merrill Lynch office on Monday, November fourth and talked with David No his friend and co worker. David too was concerned about Rob. He'd missed an important conference call on Sunday evening, and that wasn't like him. Both Brian and David were sure something dreadful had happened to him. They decided to contact the police if Rob didn't show up by the next day. On Wednesday, Nancy was still acting strangely. She had Min and Connie do more shopping for her more rope, peppermin oil, and a new comforter for her bed, while she spent most of the day in her room with the door locked, barring anyone from entry. When they returned from the shopping, they noticed an unpleasant odor hanging in the air. The old living room carpet was rolled up, covered in black trash bags, plastic sheeting, and taped awkwardly. It was lumpy and misshapen, as if something or someone was inside of it.

10:23 Boy, that sounds ominous. Kanye and Men huddled together to see if the other was thinking the same thing. They were horrified when they reached the same conclusion. Nancy's behavior, the stench from the rolled up carpet, and Rob's sudden disappearance were no coincidence. Remind me again who Connie and Men are? Connie is the nanny and min is the housekeeper. Okay, and they both lived there with Nancy and Rob. Yeah, that's a good question. We didn't talk about that in the first episode. They lived in a closet. It was like a closet that they had put a couple of beds in. It must have been a generous I hope it was a generous sized cluset. But they were cousins and you know, pretty much a part of the family.

11:06 That afternoon, four men from the Park Hu's maintenance crew came to take the rolled up rug to the storage area. The smell was bad enough to make them wretch, but they did as they were told and stowed the rug. November can still be very hot and humid in Hong Kong. The heat and humidity remained unbearable, worsening the putrid odor. Later that day, Ibra Keish and Nancy's father arrived in Hong Kong. He tried to console his daughter and took her to the hospital, where she grew impatient and left without being seen. I revisited with his grandchildren, but badly jetlagged. He retired to the Parkview Hotel for the evening. He remembered from part one they had gone to the police station first, and the police station said, well, if you're going to file a report against your husband, we need to have proof, so you need to go to the hospital and have this form filled out.

11:57 And because she said that he broke her. Ribs, Connie, unsure of what to do, emailed Bryna and told her to call Rhina asked Connie if she could go to the storage unit and look inside the rug, but she was too scared to confront when she guessed was inside, Rhina called David No, Rob's co worker to ask him what they should do. He decided to call the police. The wealthy expatriate community in Hong Kong wielded enormous influence, both socially and politically. Many held high ranking positions in multinational corporations or had connections with powerful figures back home. The police understood that any misstep in handling a case involving them could spark outrage, not just locally, but on an international scale. A single error in judgment might be interpreted as bias, negligence, or even corruption, and the fallout could strain diplomatic relations. As a result, investigators knew they had to tread carefully balancing the pursuit of justice with the delicate task of protecting Hong Kong's reputation on the world stage. So this case got a lot of attention. Police obtained a warrant for the Parkview storage unit, and even before the door was opened, the unmistakable stench of death seeped out. So his body had been in their apartment for I believe four days, Okay, so you can imagine.

13:21 Yeah. At eleven PM, they went to the Kissel's apartment and asked for the key to the storage unit. Nancy claims she'd lost it. She woke Ira in his hotel and hysterically demanded he come help her. He rushed upstairs, quickly understanding the situation, He demanded Nancy hand over the key to the police. She seemed to be in a state of shock, no longer able to speak, and trembling violently. Ira leaped into action. He demanded that an ambulance be called immediately for Nancy, his stern voice cutting through the chaotic scene. Once he was sure his grandchildren were saved, he phoned home to the US and struck that an attorney be secured for Nancy without delay. He asked Connie to tend to the children and take them to a hotel the next day. She wept as she promised Iras she would keep them safe. Ibra went with Nancy in the ambulance, shocked by the number of police and media who had already descended upon the building. Meanwhile, at two a m. The Hong Kong police opened the carpet and found Rob Kissel inside dead. They estimated that he'd been dead for ninety six hours. Nancy had slept with her dead husband in the bedroom for four days that Connie called Bryna to tell her the news. She realized that the task of notifying the Kissel family was likely left to her. She knew all of them, Bill, Jane, and Andrew.

14:45 She wasn't sure who to call, but finally decided on Andrew, Rob's older brother. He was stunned to learn of Rob's death. Though he and Nancy didn't care for each other, the idea that she could be responsible for Rob's death left him reeling. A little perplexed at what Nancy's plan was here. It seems like she didn't really hadn't really thought about what she was going to do after killing him. Leaving him in the room for four days, and then just wrapping him in a. Rug on having four men put his body in the storage unit. I think that shows that her mental state might have been not right. Yeah. Nancy emerged from her catatonic like state at the hospital when she again complained that she thought her ribs might be broken. The emergency room doctors noted a few fading bruises and abrasions, but nothing serious. While still at the hospital, Nancy was arrested and then taken to a jam packed hospital ward lined with beds of ill patients.

15:44 Suddenly aware of her surroundings, she screamed, I'm not staying here. You can't do this to me. Let me go, Let me go. I've got to get out. The autopsy revealed Rob had been struck five times in the head with a blunt object, each blow powerful enough to kill him. His skull was shattered, fragments lodged in his brain, with brain matter seeping from the wounds. The lack of defensive injuries suggested the attack came while he was unconscious. After Rob was dead, Nancy taped a plastic bag around his head and then wrapped him in towels trash bags, and then a sleeping bag. She wound plastic sheeting over the cocoon and then taped it securely into place, before rolling his body in the rug and again taping it closed.

16:29 When Rob was unwrapped, a lead statuette was found with him crusted in blood, the beloved piece that had belonged to Nancy's grandmother. Rob's toxicology report showed five different drugs, all with sedative effects in his stomach and liver. There was alcohol in his blood, but very little. Do you remember when Nancy had gone to different doctors she got ambient and well, what are the other things that she got? I can't remember the raraz apam. She had at least five or six day diferent drugs that she obtained from her psychiatrist and a physician. Yeah, I had forgotten about that. And those drugs all matched the drugs that were in Rob's system.

17:09 The crime scene the Kissel's bedroom was very bloody. The carpet at the end of the bed was the most saturated. The blood spatter was low on the walls, indicating that Rob had been struck when he was likely lying on the floor. It wasn't clear whether Nancy was physically unable to speak or simply refusing to, but she communicated by blinking in response to yes or no questions. She seemed to understand her dire circumstances. The case against her was strong. The lawyer who Ira hired for her advised Nancy not to speak to anyone, especially the police, about what had happened. She blinked to signify that she understood. Telling the children.

17:51 Elaine nine June sixth and Rice four weighed heavily on Ira. He told it Lane first. She cried for a minute, but then went back to playing with her siblings, not understanding their enormous loss. Ira thought his son in Nancy's half brother, Brooks, a medical student who had received training in child psychology, was better equipped to tell the two younger children. He was on his way to Hong Kong from the States. He went to visit Nancy in the hospital. First, she asked about her children, but that was about all. She asked that he'd bring her laptop and her jewelry to her. That seems really strange to me because she's in the hospital, but she's under security, yeah, and she was allowed to have those things. Really surprised me, that is strange.

18:39 But why would she even ask for her jewelry? That seemed the laptop I can sort of understand, but the jewelry seems odd. Well, don't you think the laptop would be in police possession? Right? Yeah. The Kissel family, too, was on their way to Hong Kong, their suitcases stuffed with gifts for Elaine, June and Rice. Beneath the wrapping paper and good intentions, however, lay a far more serious purpose. They were prepared to fight for custody, though it remained uncertain who among them was truly equipped to guide the children through such a painful and uncertain transition. The Kissels and the Kishans met to discuss custody of the children. Ira tried to keep it amicable, but everything was a competition. To Bill Kissel, he brought an attorney to the meeting. Nancy wanted the children to live with her father, but her wishes didn't hold much water considering what she had done. Bill wanted Andrew and Hayley to have custody. He argued that they had two children similar in age and had a lifestyle similar to what they were accustomed to. Ira knew that Andrew was volatile and likely an alcoholic and drug user, not to mention narcissistic and morally corrupt.

19:49 I am not very nice to Andrew, but we'll get to that. She sounds like Ira didn't have a high opinion of him either. No, no, I did. If Andrew became their guardian, he would have access to Rob's twenty million dollar estate, a huge incentive to him. There was no resolution after the meeting, but Bill went to Rob's office and stole the children's passports so Ira couldn't bring them to Chicago. It's so sad. I just hate this so much when the kids get in the middle, especially when there's so much money attached to the kids that you know the incentive is, oh, I want custody of the kids, but what you really want is the money. I think we're going to talk about this in a minute. But Andrew and Haley's marriage was crumbling at this point, so you know, they definitely should were not.

20:32 In a good place to that. We'll be back after a break. In the following days, several people visited the Kissel's apartment. The crime scene hadn't been cleaned up. The bedroom was especially grizzly and the smell of death and dka lingered. A neighbor who had a key brought several friends to tour the crime scene. Connie came to get some of the children's clothes and belongings, and Brooks went in to get Nancy's laptop. The crime scene hadn't been closed off, and several items that should have been of interest to police, including Nancy's laptop, had been left behind. Police did, however, go through the cameras at park View and found video of Nancy carrying new rugs into the apartment. They also found love letters to Nancy from Mike and the report from the private investigator. Early on, they had a clear picture of what transpired. On November twelve, the police once again returned to the apartment. They took Nancy's purse, which contained the five prescriptions that she'd secured before Rob's death, and they matched the toxicology report. Later that day, the police released the apartment and Connie and Mint set to work cleaning it before the children returned. There were several bags of evidence, blood soaked towels and linens found in the children's closets that the police had missed I'm painting a picture here, right. The police really didn't do a

22:03 job securing this crime scene. Connie and Brooks cared for the children in the Kissel's apartment. Connie was like family. She'd been the children's primary caregiver for most of their young lives. She would not leave their sides. Do you remember who Brooks is? I'm sorry to say I don't. Okay, Brooks is Nancy's half brother. Okay. Surprisingly, on November fifteenth, Bill Kissel relinquished his fight for custody of the children. He let Ira take them back to Chicago. Hayley Andrew's wife helped make the decision. She thought they'd be better off with Ira, who they loved and trusted. Connie accompanied them back to the US. I'm a little surprised that the Kissels gave up that easily.

22:46 Me too. Nancy's arraignment was pushed back twice due to her health. She was confined to a wheelchair, unable to walk and spoke very little. She was left in China alone while Ira and the children flew back to the US. The Kissels wanted nothing to do with her. When Ira was back in Chicago with his grandchildren. He was met with the reality of the situation. He was sixty one, and although he was in good shape, he didn't feel mentally or physically capable of meeting the demands of three traumatized young children. He was exhausted, and his wife was horrified by the entire unseemly affair and sadly wanted nothing to do with the children. It is very sad. Brooks, Nancy's half brother, was twenty four, single and in medical school in Cincinnati. He decided to take a leave of absence from school and care for the children. He made a plan. His mother, Joyce, IRA's second wife, not Nancy's mother, offered to help him, and Connie agreed to stay on.

23:49 Ira would visit as often as possible. The Kishans wanted the children to have a loving, stable, middle class lifestyle. Ira hoped that Bill Kissel would see this was the best possible arrangement. Here's an excerpt from the letter he sent Bill. We believe the children's long term needs are best met in a stable, loving environment. My wife and I cannot take on the demands of raising three young children. Elaine, June, and Rice have adjusted remarkably well under Connie's continuity and Brooks daily care. He has proven capable of managing their needs, and we believe their placement with him and Cincinnati should continue.

24:30 Our hope is that this decision will not create conflict between the Kissel and Keishan families. Above all, we must remain united in love and support of the children. God bless us all. Ira. So, was Connie from Hong Kong or did she. Go to She was from I'm not sure if she might have been Korean? Okay, so, but she moved to the States. She moved to the States. Oh It's commitment. Ira had purchased a home for Brooks, Connie, and the children. It was undergoing renovations and the Meanwhile, while they were living in Brooks's basement apartment, Bill was horrified. When he visited. He pressured Haley and Andrew to take the children, despite Haley's reservations. On Christmas Day two thousand and three, Ira and Bill faced off again in a Cincinnati hotel room while the children played nearby. Bill was confrontational, warning Ira that he would bankrupt him if custody wasn't turned over to Andrew immediately. Though the Kishans were comfortable financially, they were no match for the Kissel's family resources, which could easily overwhelm them. Through drawn out legal battles. Bill threatened to ruin their lives, especially Brooks and his future as a doctor. They believed Bill to be a vengeful man, and true to his word, they capitulated and gave custody of the children to Haley and Andrew, who were then living in Greenwich, Connecticut. Brooks, by the way, went on to become a professor in pediatrics at the University of Utah, a child abused pediatrician and a child psychiatrist, So he

26:02 probably would have done a wonderful job raising the tilt. Yeah, it seems like he would have been well qualified. Hong Kong's prisons are run by the Correctional Services Department and are known for their strict discipline and rigid routines. Facilities are generally clean but austere, with little privacy and cells that may be overcrowded. Inmates where uniforms followed tightly structured daily schedules, and are required to work in prison industries such as laundry, carpentry or garment manufacturing. While the system emphasizes rehabilitation offering vocational training, education, and counseling that also enforces strict rules with punishments for infractions, raging from loss of privileges to solitary confinement. Family contact is limited to monitored visits, censored mail, and occasional phone calls. Although Hong Kong's prisons followed strict rules for all inmates, some observers speculated that Nancy kissel Is, a wealthy American expatriate in a high profile case, might have experienced subtle differences in treatment. She would have been subject to the same uniforms, labor and routines as other prisoners, but authorities might have ensured her basic needs or privileges were carefully managed to avoid international criticism or diplomatic tension. After she was released from the hospital, Nancy was sent to the Sioux Lamb Psychiatric Center for evaluation. The doctors found her to be of good mental health. Does that surprise you a little bit?

27:33 Me too? During her time at the detention center, several acquaintances from the expatriate community rallied around Nancy, convinced that she was a battered woman who had struck back at her abuser. They visited her several times a week and became her advocates. Although Nancy had been estranged from her mother since the incident years earlier, she asked her new friends to reach out to her and encouraged her to come for a visit. You remember when she pushed her mom out of the apartment after she criticized her parenting. Yes, it had been years earlier. It took Nancy six months to write to her children. Her letters were light and breezy, asking them how summer camp was and how much ice cream they'd eaten. She had never explained what happened to their father or where she was, just that she was doing better and needed rest. The children never wrote back to her as far as I know. Eventually she decided it was better not to communicate with them. She was sure they were safe with Haley and Andrew. She'd let them get on with their lives so she could focus on her legal defense. On November one, two thousand and four, a year after Rob's murder, to everyone's shock, the judge in the case, Michael Birell, set Nancy's bail at one million dollars. Nancy Kissel was the first person ever to receive to bail after being charged with murder in Hong Kong.

28:57 Her wealthy expatriate friends happily put the money up for her. With the trials set for May two thousand and five, I re liquidated all of his assets to pay for Nancy's legal defense and still came up a million dollars short. Surprisingly, one of Rob's former Goldman Sex colleagues stepped forward and offered to pay Nancy's legal bills. Oh, this whole paragraph you just read is kind of blowing my mind, Like, yeah, I would think an expatriot would be the last person you would want to grant bail too, because there's going to be a huge risk of flight that they're going to fly back to the US and make it much more complicated. I think any time anyone is given bail in a murder situation is surprising to me.

29:38 But yeah, especially yea if they're facing life in prison, you know, you weigh the choice of fleeing versus life in prison. Yeah, it's definitely a risk. But then Rob's former colleague stepping or multiple colleagues. Well, no, the one colleague was paying for her legal defense was just one. Okay, the expatriot community posted her bail. Okay, gotcha. Nancy's expatriot friends rented an apartment for her. Each day she went to her lawyer's office to work on her case. Nancy allegedly was a terror in the office and bullied the paralegals. She wanted to plead self defense, but her lawyer cautioned her against it. The brutality of the skull crushing blows that she delivered to Rob win against the notion of self defense because each blow was enough to kill him. Yeah, she did five blows to the right.

30:29 Nancy considered claiming that she suffered from disassociative amnesia, that Rob's attack had caused her to forget the traumatic event altogether, but her legal team again cautioned her against it. Nancy's mother, Jean, moved to Hong Kong to support her, but their constant bickering maybe arrangement very unpleasant time in jail hadn't made Nancy any more kind or gracious. In nineteen ninety four, Rob invested five hundred thousand dollars in An Andrew's new real estate venture, which focused on revitalizing up and coming neighborhoods. In other words, gentrification. He named his company hand Rock, for Hayley Andrew, Nancy and Rob By the year two thousand, he owned forty five buildings, comprising a total of fourteen hundred apartments. It's a big, big.

31:20 Business, right, Yeah, he's doing well. So consumed with his image, Andrew even bought out two neighbors in his apartment building, one beside him and one below. He combined the units into a sprawling two story showplace, the largest and most extravagant apartment in the building. Neighbors, impressed with his apparent success and ingenuity, invested in his new company. So the name of his company is hand Rock. Do you think that's his way of manipulating his brother, who has a lot of money, Like, I'm to name my company for us brother. Yeah, there's kind of an unusual move, naming your company with your brother's name and your brother's wife wife's name. So yeah, I guess he wanted his brother to feel part of the team.

32:04 Or more willing to give him a bigger investment. Right. Andrew had served as treasurer of his Manhattan co op board since nineteen ninety five, a position that gave him access to the building's finances, he alone received the financial statements and held the checkbook. He suggested to the board that they remodeled the lobby and hallways of the building. During renovations, he padded invoices and quietly pocketed the difference. Andrew skimmed money from his neighbors for years, taking a cut at every opportunity when there was a necessary service or project in the building. He set up sham companies to invoice the co op, then paid the bills himself, essentially funneling the co ops money straight into his own pocket.

32:52 He had even borrowed two million dollars under the co op's name. But in two thousand and three, a sharp new board member grew suspicious after reviewing the financial reports, the renovations to the lobby had somehow cost over a million dollars. The lobby looked fine, but no one could understand the million dollar price tag, and soon the board began scrutinizing the invoices more closely. I don't understand how people think they're going to get away with that kind of thing for long. He got away with it for years. Wow, Andrew knew he was in real trouble. He admitted to stealing one million dollars from the co op and was ready to pay the money back, but the board hired a forensic accountant who found that he had actually diverted four point seven million dollars from the co op's account into his own.

33:41 So I don't know how much money that everyone pays their co op every month, but I know what it's got to be in New York. It must be at least one thousand dollars on top of your rent that goes that account. Eventually, Andrew reached a settlement with the board to avoid criminal charges paying back the four point seven million. He liquidated twenty five million dollars worth of New Jersey properties from han Rock to raise the money, funds that should have been shared among investors like his neighbors and rob or his estate after his death. Instead of paying them, Andrew concealed the sales and kept about twenty million dollars, which he funneled into fraudulent real estate deals in Connecticut.

34:23 After the co op fiasco, Andrew moved to Greenwich, Connecticut, and rented a huge house for fourteen thousand dollars a month, leaving Haley and their two daughters in the Manhattan apartment to finish the school year. Haley, unaware of the scandal, didn't understand why her neighbors were suddenly stand offish and glared at her Icily, the co op business was peanuts compared to Andrew's next scandal. Using forged statements and a stolen notary stamp, Andrew tricked banks into issuing massive mortgages on already mortgage properties, then recycled the proceeds as down payments to secure even more loans. The scheme depended on precision and discipline, traits that Andrew sorely lacked. Learning of Rob's death at Nancy's hands only distracted him further. He had built a fragile house of cards. So Andrew just seems like somebody who is trying to take every shortcut he can to wealth.

35:21 Exactly and burning bridges along the way. I'm not sure if I explained that well enough, because it's pretty complicated what he was doing. Yeah, but a stolen notary stamp can really get you a long way, because he forged documents, had this notary stamp that you know, looks very official. So he would go to a bank and say this apartment is completely paid off in full, so then they would give him, you know, money based on that mortgage that was paid off. Wow, it kind of reminds me of a catch me if you can that look like just you know, you kind of always have to say one step ahead of your. Scams, right, And that was my point that you know, Andrew doesn't have the personality and you know the fine details that he needs to have to so you know, eventually.

36:07 It's going to catch up to him. It's going to catch up to him exactly. Andrew was on a path of self destruction, burning through money and making impulsive decisions. He would think nothing of spending fifty thousand dollars in a weekend treating his friends and seducing women. What he lacked in personality and character, he bought. Among the thirty cars in his fleet were four ferraris. He also owned a three point six million dollar ninety three foot yacht that he named the Special Caves. He also snapped up a restaurant, a liquor store, an olive oil company, even a horse stable, all to feed his ego. His reckless spending extended to an investment in an off Broadway show called Pieces of Ass. Haven't heard of that?

36:52 One I have any either heard. I forgot to do research, but I'm guessing that it didn't make it to Broadway. Yeah, but beneath the flash and blood, Andrew's so called empire rested on a shaky foundation of real estate fraud. After catching him with another woman in February two thousand and five, Haley filed for divorce. She asked for seven million dollars in the settlement. She fully expected Andrew to end up in jail because of his shady business dealings. She told his sister Jane at the time, I hate to say it, but every time I see Rob's kids now I see Andrew in them. I hate to take it out on them, but I can't help it. That's really an awful thing to say.

37:33 Yeah, it is. You remember, Haley used to be a competitive skier, and skiing is really important to the Kissel family. And Haley used to coach Jane, so they were pretty close friends. Okay, a lot of times Haley would confide in Jane, and probably, you know, based on this comment, she said a lot of things that she probably shouldn't have. Yeah. Andrew's downward spiral only worsened after he learned his marriage was over, he no longer bothered to keep up appearances. His drinking and drug use became rampant, unchecked, and his business dealings equally unstable. He turned out counterfeit deeds to properties he owned that showed them paid off in full.

38:14 He then used the forged documents to secure new fraudulent mortgages, sometimes even obtaining multiple loans on the same property from different banks. Ultimately, he swindled banks out of thirty million. Dollars I saw estimates as high as fifty million dollars. Oh, and he sank deeper into debt, deception, and ruin. He even had a fraudulent mortgage on his skihouse in Vermont. But Andrew's scams didn't end with forged mortgages. In New Jersey, he devised another scam at the expense of family and friends, including Rob's estate. He quietly sold off apartment complexes that investors believed were still part of their portfolios, making money, but Andrew had sold the properties and pocketed the profits.

39:00 He continued to pay out dividends to investors, creating the illusion that their investments were sound. Friends, relatives, even people who trusted him with their retirement funds later discovered that they had been duped by a man with no legitimate assets to his name. But Andrew was running out of time. Hanging out those dividends was. Pretty genius, really really, Yeah. I mean it's gonna at least delay them figuring things out. But boy, it's just this whole thing is giving me stress because he's just building this house of cards that is going to collapse on him. Well, and he had a lot of He gave them statements, but they were all counterfeit. Yeah. Meanwhile, Haley and Andrew were still sharing a home.

39:43 She reached her breaking point managing all five children and the household while Andrew lived the playboy lifestyle. In an email to Jane, she wrote, God, I hate your brother. He is just such an awful, pathetic person. I just fucking hate him. His I Am the King attitude, his value system or lack thereof, his anger, his meanness. I just hate him. He will never be a good, responsible person. I just can't believe how he can so readily shirk his responsibility to his family. He is horrible, just horrible, and I hate his fucking guts. Do you know last night in bed I could actually see myself pummeling him to death and just enjoying the sensation of each and every shot. And then this morning, as I pulled out of the garage to go to spin class, all I wanted to do was crash into his ferraris. He put this stupid pole in the garage so that I would know where to stop my car when I pulled into the garage, because you know how incompetent I am that I can't even park my car. Do you know I intentionally bang into the thing every time I park as an act of defiance. I hate him.

40:55 Some excavation points at a lot of capital letters in that email. That is a very very emotional email. Jane, the most decent of the Kissels, decided she needed to intervene on behalf of Elaine, June and Rice. She called Andrew and told him to relinquish custody or she would sue him. But it was Haley who fought back. She knew that Andrew was close to financial ruin, with herself close behind. She wanted to keep Nancy and Rob's kids because they came with a big paycheck. We'll be back after a break.

41:36 Nancy Kissel's trial began in Hong Kong on June seventh, two thousand and five, and quickly became one of the most sensational court cases the city had ever seen. Presided over by Judge Michael Lunn, the proceedings stretched on for nearly three months, with every twist and turn reported in the international press. Nancy remained free on bail. She sat poised and polished while prosecutors painted her as a calculating woman who murdered her husband in cold blood. The jury, five men and two women, listened as the prosecution laid out its narrative in English. They argued that Nancy had drugged rob with a lethal cocktail hidden inside a milkshake, ludgeoned him to death with the lead statue, then wrapped his body in a carpet and hid it in the storeroom.

42:26 To them, this was a crime of greed and betrayal, carried out by a wife desperate to escape her failing marriage, but unwilling to sacrifice her privileged lifestyle. The defense told a different story. They described Nancy as a battered wife trapped in an abusive marriage with a domineering, drug dependent husband. They claimed that she acted out of desperation and fear, not malice, and that her actions reflected years of trauma rather than a carefully orchestrated plan. Her attorneys appointed to Rob's cocaine use followed to temper and financial pressures as evidence of the hostile environment. She endured, I should say that there is no evidence that Rob abused cocaine his blood at the time of his death during the autoxy I don't think was tested for it, but no one in his life can point to him ever using cocaine.

43:20 The case captured public imagination and the same way the OJ Simpson trial had in the United States. The Hong Kong media coined it the Milkshake Murder. The nickname trivialized Rob's tragic death, but reflected the fascination of the public's interest a deadly milkshake, a family unraveling in an expatriate community caught up in the salacious scandal. A parade of witnesses testified that Nancy was difficult and sometimes near impossible. Kanie and Men both testified for two days each. Min said that Nancy could be cruel and hot tempered, and neither had heard the couple fighting on the night in question. Computer ex Spurt testified that a Dell laptop contained Google searches for drugs that kill without a trace. There were two desktops in the Kissel's apartment with some interesting searches on their hard drives from April eighth, just before Rob set off for a business trip to Taiwan. During this time, Nancy and the kids were in the States. They were definitely from Rob. They include mpeg sex sex and Taiwan hot mail sex, anal cos gay anal sex, bisexual male ass, Taiwan escorts, Taiwan companions gay sex or anal sex, and Taiwan hardcore gay bondage sex. I'm gonna stop here, but it goes on and on front. But it ended with and used porsches. One of the sexes was free gay porn.

44:54 I'm like, Rob, you're you're a millionaire, and you can't. Just on the free stuff, just on the free stuff. So Bill angrily tore out of the courtroom, his cheeks aflame. He did not want to hear about this part of his son's life. On August first, two months into the trial, Nancy took the stand before a packed courtroom. The confident blonde with the radiant smile was gone. In her place was a thinner, fragile looking woman with long, dark hair and glasses. The transformation was striking so much that some observers accused her of deliberately trying to appear more Asian, a calculated effort to win sympathy from the jury. Nancy testified that Rob's behavior had changed after the birth of their first daughter, Elaine. She said that Rob became disgusted by her postpartum body and insisted on oral or anal rather than vaginal sex. When she was pregnant with her son Rice, he struck her for the first time. His temper, she explained, could be explosive. On one occasion, he punched a wall so violently that he shattered a bone in his hand, suffering what doctors call a boxer's fracture, and it was not the first time that he had sustained such an injury. He had previously broken the same knuckle after lashing out at a hard object and anger.

46:12 I had a boxer's fracture once, Oh you did? From what it was? Softball injury. I get hit with a softball that it hit me right like in the knuckle where you would punch. Someone right, so I don't think it's an uncommon injury and not necessarily sustained from punching your mate right. Nancy sobbed and trembled on the stand as she talked about the physical and sexual abuse it was constant, she claimed. She explained that her Google searches for undetectable drugs that cause heart attacks stemmed from her thoughts of taking her own life, hoping to spare her children from the shame of learning what she had done. The last night of Rob's life, she claimed he was on a murderous tair after she'd announced in marriage counseling that she wanted a divorce.

46:57 He was irate, drank excessively and assumed cocaine. He violently sodomized her, and later he came after her with a baseball bat. In defense, she grabbed the eight pound lead statue of her grandmother's that she cherished to defend herself. She said she didn't remember anything else after that. She was on the witness stand for eight days. A few more defense witnesses recalled seeing Nancy with bruises on occasion. One person remembers seeing her wears sunglasses inside. I'm curious. Did either Connie or men testify to any witnessing any violence between them or any. It is a very good question, and no they did not. Interesting, the apartment was thirty five hundred square feet, so that's a pretty big apartment. But their room, I said, it was like in this old closet, So I would think that they would still be able to hear any of the fighting that had gone on. Yeah, it sounds like they really loved Rob and kind of tolerated Nancy.

47:56 Okay. On day seventy seven, the defense rests Nancy had dressed entirely in black for the whole trial. As the case was handed to the jury, the judge told them that they had three options. They could find Nancy guilty of murder, guilty of manslaughter due to provocation, or not guilty. He reminded the jury of the force of the blows Rob had suffered to his head and told them that they must decide if that was warranted as self defense, five strong blows that had crushed his skull and caused his brain matter to ooze out of his head. The jury took eight hours to come back with their decision. What do you think, I think guilty?

48:36 They found Nancy guilty of murder. She was sentenced to life in prison. Nancy's mother, Jean, wrote an email to Joe McGinnis's author of Never Enough. In part it read, this is indeed a story of domestic violence, power and greed. Nan was over her head in many respects. She also made unwise choices along the way, as we all do. She, however, fell through that thin gauze that supports most of us above the pit of irretrievable consequences. After the verdict, of Hong Kong newspaper tracked down Mike del Priori and published his picture with this caption, This is Michael del Priory, a muscular TV repairman and notorious ladies man. The forty one year old man with piercing eyes is known as a man with a colorful past. The trauma of Kissel's arrest no longer seems to bother him, as he now lives with a blonde woman named Tracy who drives a red Ford GT sports car. She moved into mister del Priori's tiny home in Hinsdale, Vermont in January.

49:42 On the Hong Kong Press really doing their job tracking down everything. Nancy Pine for Mike and wrote in love letters continuously for months, but he'd moved on and didn't answer her letters. They piled up at his house unopened. Nancy begged her attorneys to find out why he wasn't answering her letters. Was Nancy also writing letters to hear children, you might wonder, sadly, no, and she forbade her parents from talking to her about them. It's really sad and really hard for me to understand. I guess in some ways, maybe it's noble that you know you're going to be in prison for the rest of your life, and maybe your children are better off. But I can't imagine just kind of giving up on keeping in contact.

50:23 I hones say it probably was for the best. Probably right. And a quick question for you, is life in prison in Hong Kong? Does it mean life in prison? I believe that there is a chance there is something called a long term prison Sentence Review Board, and I believe they can intervene and shorten a sentence. Okay. While Nancy was on trial for Rob's murder, the FBI finally closed in on Andrew Kissel. He was taken into custody without incident on July twenty eighth, two thousand and five for falsifying mortgage documents up to fifty million dollars in three states and defrauding investors out of seven million dollars. So this literally happened in the midst of the murder trial.

51:06 You imagine Bill Kissel. Oh, yeah, he was probably beside himself for sure. Andrew seemed surprised by the arrest. I can't imagine why he was surprised. Well, he's a narcissist, so he doesn't think that he's ever going to have to pay for his crimes, right, He never thought they were going to catch up too. Yeah, that makes sense. At his arraignment, his attorney told the judge he's a sick man. He assured the judge he would seek psychiatric help for his client. Andrew was later diagnosed with a number of conditions alcohol dependence, bipolar disorder, cocaine abuse, impulse control problems PTSD, and antisocial personality disorder.

51:48 Andrew's attorney asked for leniency, noting that he was a first time offender and had been experiencing marital dispress and recently lost his brother, causing his poor decision making. I make you believe that his lawyer was trying to get him off. He's a first time offender. He's to frauded banks out of fifty million dollars, but it's his first criminal offense. I know it seems a little a little extreme. Haley was present for the hearing, crying softly. Andrew paid one million dollars in bail. He remained under house arrest with an ankle monitor in Greenwich. When asked by the media in Hong Kong about his son Andrew during Nancy's trial, Bill Kissel said he had seen it coming for years.

52:32 He and Andrew had been estranged, and when Andrew got into trouble, he forbade anyone from contacting his father for help. Rob's own investment in his brother's business ventures lowered his estates worth from eighteen million dollars to fifteen point five million dollars. The Kissel family was in tatters after Nancy's conviction and Andrew's arrest. Bill co signed Jane's pursuit of custody of Elaine. June and Rice and Andrew were furious. That seems like the right decision, though absolutely Nancy wrote to the judge in support of Andrew and Hailey gaining custody from the Thai Lamb Prison Center. I have been overwhelmed by Hailey's unconditional love, support and her exceptional skills as a devoted mother. The fact of the matter is my children are not in harm's way emotionally or physically right now. Children understand love, they don't understand change. Loving families don't turn on each other, they support one another.

53:33 These might be the only kind words that Nancy ever spoke about Hailey. They had never been close, but even Ira thought Elaine, June, and Rice should stay with Hailey. Why do you think Nancy and her dad both were supporting Haley and Andrew in this? I mean, from everything you've said, it doesn't sound like the best situation for the time. I don't know if Ira knew about all of the trouble that Andrew was in, that might have been part of it. But also the kids need stability, that's true. Yeah, And at this point they had been with Haley and Andrew for years, and they were being raised with her two cousins, and you know, send them. Jane lived in Washington State, so. I would have been a big move. Yeah, yeah, a huge move.

54:15 Jane knew that the children were in a terrible situation and aggressively pursued custody, even talking to a New York Times reporter. Using the media to embarrass him was the last straw for Andrew. He left her the following message, Jane, it's your ex brother. You've managed to do what dad has tried to do for seventy five years. Tear this family apart. You've done that and we're going to bury you. Jane Haley left a similarly outraged message. The betrayal I have gotten from you is of a magnitude that I never thought possible, But obviously I underestimated you. This family is a mess. They are.

54:55 Rob's will specified that if Nancy were unable to care for their children, Stidy should go to his sister, Jane Kissel Clayton. That was good enough for the judge. Jane and her husband, Richard one custody. The children moved to Mercer Island, Washington, with Jane, her husband and their two children. It looks like a beautiful, beautiful place where they live, like an island, and just stunning pictures that I saw. Andrew was indicted in New York on additional charges of grand larceny, forgery, and falsifying business records from the earlier co op scandal. He faced twenty five years in prison. Haley and Andrew continued to live together unharmoniously after they were evicted for not paying rend. Hailey's father, Dervish Wolf, purchased a two million dollar house for her and their two daughters, eight and six. On Saturday, April first, two thousand and six, Haley moved out of the house, leaving Andrew with just a bed and a few pieces of random furniture. While the movers were there, Haley and Andrew had a huge argument, allegedly about some cash Andrew had stove somewhere in the house. Carlos Chahil, Andrew's driver, witnessed the fight, as did the movers. After Haley left, she called Bill and cautioned him that Andrew wasn't doing well and might be suicidal. Bill called Andrew, but he refused the call. The following Monday, Andrew was set to surrender himself.

56:24 He'd taken a plea deal and would likely be headed to prison for at least ten years. In May, he would be sentence again for the grand larceny charge from the co op board, adding maybe another ten to fifteen years to his sentence. When the movers returned on Monday to pick up the remaining items, no one answered the front door. It was unlocked, so they let themselves in and set to work. As they packed up the remaining items in the house, they checked the basement, where they found Andrew forty six, lying dead in a poll of blood, his hands and feet bound with zip ties, his T shirt pulled over his head. He was stabbed multi times in the back. There was cocaine in his system. Okay, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit shocked at the moment. I was kind of expecting that he may have died by suicide, but this sounds like it was definitely he was stabbed in.

57:15 The back and his arms and legs were zip tied, so he did not take his own life. Oh my goodness. Okay, it's very Shakespearean, isn't it. I was just going to say, it's like a Greek tragedy or something along those lines. Andrew had a lot of enemies. He'd wronged a lot of people, but none more so than his own wife. She did not cooperate with the murder investigation. Police wouldn't confirm or deny whether she was a suspect. Bill thought Haley or her father were involved. Haley and Andrew's other friends lawyered up quickly. No one was talking. It always happens in these cases when there's a lot of wealth. Oh yeah, people just people. They have nothing to do with it. They're like, we're not talking, right. Not. Everyone believed that Andrew's murder was a revenge. Some speculated that he may have orchestrated his own death, hiring a hitman in a rare moment of selflessness to take himself out so that his wife and children could collect on his fifteen million dollar life insurance policy, money that might finally provide them with some stability after years of chaos. The time of his death, Andrew had assets of six hundred and twenty four thousand dollars, but owed his creditors more than thirty million dollars. I'm not sure how his life insurance policy worked then. I don't think that creditors can go after the life insurance money because that money was Haley's, even though they were I'm not exactly sure. It's kind of confusing. Haley had gone back to work as a stock analyst. In their divorce,

58:48 Andrew requested alimony. Just up the road from their rented house, the Kissels were building their dream house, a ten thousand square foot Adirondack style home that now sat abandoned. Andrew was laid to rest in the family plot, next to his brother. Only seventeen people attended the service. Haley was asked not to come at the funeral. Bill confided to the rabbi, once he grew up, he turned bad. There's nothing good to say about him as a man. Wow. In less than three years, both of Bill Kissel's sons had been slain, and five young children were left without their fathers. Rob's gravestone read we love and miss you so very much. You have touched so many lives, your beautiful children, your mother and father, your sister and brother, all your loved ones, and many friends. Andrew's gravestones simply read we all love you.

59:43 That's quite a contrast between the two gravestones. Yeah, there was no shortage of people who wanted to see Andrew dead, but Carlusterhillo, Andrew's longtime driver and personal assistant, was the last person to see him alive. He said he'd locked the door when he left. Police found no sign of forest Entry. Whoever killed Andrew either had a key or was someone he was expecting. When police searched Andrew in Haley's bedroom closet, they found an access panel with a broken lock. Behind the access panel was a crawl space that was empty. The money was gone. Wait, he kept his money in the crawl space. I'm not really sure, but there was allegedly money somewhere in the house and that seemed like a likely place and it was gone, so it seemed like someone had taken the money.

1:00:30 I'm watching Breaking Bad right now, and he had his money in the crawl space, So I'm just I can picture that completely. Okay. So Carlos failed a polygraph examination. Police accused him of lying to them about several key points, but Trhiello argued that he'd lied to cover up his part in the money laundering operation and that's what set off the polygraph. Later, Carlos and his cousin, Leonard TRAHILLO twenty four, were both arrested, but there was no direct physical evidence tying Carlos or Leonard to the crime scene. Leonard pleaded guilty to manslaughter and conspiracy to commit murder in two thousand and nine. In twenty eleven, he testified against Carlos at his trial.

1:01:14 Leonard claimed that Carlos paid him eleven thousand dollars in cash and gave him a laptop for his part in the murder. He claimed he had backed out of the plan, but by never informing Andrew or a law enforcement he was culpable. For his testimony. Prosecutors dropped the capital murder charge against him. Much of the prosecution's case against Carlos relied on Leonard's testimony. The jury didn't find him credible. Carlos Trhillo was acquitted of the murder charge, but the jury was hung on the attempted murder charge. After deliberating for three days, Carlos pleaded guilty to attempted murder. He was sentenced to six years and I think the time has already elapsed, but upon the completion of his prison sentence, he was to be deported. He maintains his innocence. A Leonard was sentenced to twenty years in prison. Wow, So Franklin Trahillo, another cousin, wore a wire during the investigation for police. They tried to get Leonard to discuss his plan with Carlos, but they never managed to record anything incriminating.

1:02:23 Greenwich police later sponsored Franklin Trihillo for a visa to stay in the country, so Nancy Kissel's first appeal was denied in two thousand and eight, but in February twenty ten, Hong Kong's highest court overturned Nancy's conviction based on prejudicial evidence presented by the prosecution. What is taking the way for We're going to be here till midnight, making the way for a new trial. Nancy was not given bail this time. March twenty eleven, at her second trial, she appeared in court in a wheelchair. A jury once again found Nancy guilty of murder. She remained incarcerated in Hong Kong, serving her life sentence. I mentioned the next thing just because it just shows how corrupt these this whole all these people are in this family. In twenty fourteen, Haley's father, seventy nine year old Darish Wolf, president and board chairman of Lewis Burger Group Incorporated, pleaded guilty to defrauding USAID by charging overhead and other indirect costs at falsely inflated rates from nineteen ninety through July two thousand and nine.

1:03:30 He admitted that he enriched himself and his company with money intended for important reconstruction projects in Afghanistan and Iraq. God, this family, I know. I think you pointed out that I said his name wrong earlier. I said Dervish maybe, and it's Dearish Yeish, Okay, yeah, So rest in peace, Andrew and Robert Kissel, brothers whose lives were marked by wealth, ambition, and family complexities. Both of their lives ended tragically and much too soon, leaving behind children who love them. Rest in peace. I do want to give credit to my main source for this episode. It was a book called Never Enough by Joe McGinnis. Joe wrote Fatal Vision and several other true crime books.

1:04:11 I really enjoyed this book. This is the third book of his that I've read. It did end before Andrew's death. There is a movie based on this story called The Two Mister Kissels. John Stamos plays Andrew Kissel, which, if you've seen pictures of Andrew Kissel, is the greatest honor of his life. Really, I mean, it's. Not like I don't know. I'm just being mean. I think Andrew was just a shady guy didn't deserve his fate. But yeah, the other I don't know who else is in the movie. John Stamos was the only person that I recognized. I watched the movie. It's it's kind of a cheeky movie. I enjoyed it. I recommend it. It doesn't go super deep.

1:04:54 Yeah, I'm surprised there aren't any you know, big time movies like based on this story, even if it's not like a direct version of the story. This just seems like such a like a Greek tragedy or like you said, a Shakespeare and drama. Just seems like so such a wild. Story it is. I found the movie on Internet archive and we will link it in the show notes. You came home from our local library about a month ago, and you had the book in your hand and I and you took it from it. I ripped it out of your hands, and I was like, oh, I own all Joe McGinnis stories. So really, I think this was a really interesting case. I think that it's probably better known than I am aware that it, Like I had never heard of it. Yeah, but I think it is a pretty popular true crime case. I can imagine it's crazy that both of the Kissel brothers were found dead in a basement.

1:05:47 That is a bit of a coincidence. Yeah, were you surprised that Mike del Priori was not involved in Rob's murder? Well, I mean he was on the other side of the world, so I guess I could imagine that maybe she had talked to him about it, but it doesn't sound like he was, and he was obviously he wasn't. When I knew that Rob was going to be murdered, I initially thought, well, I bet Mike was in the country and Mike was going to help dispose of the body or something. But no, there really was was not a plan there. Nancy was a pretty bad criminal. Wait, so Mike was in Hong Kong at the time. No, he wasn't. But I thought that, oh, he's probably gonna you know. Yeah, I mean, based on you know, all the stories that we've done it. He definitely fits that portrait of someone who might have helped her with something like that.

1:06:35 Yeah, Heley and Andrew wanting custody of the kids. Do you think that was solely because of the money that came with them. Well, I mean, it sure sounds like it, and it makes that makes me so angry. I mean I said it earlier, but it's just I hate it when the kids are used as like a pawn. You know, the kids come with come with the dollar signs attached to them, and so that makes you know, people try to get custody of them, and it just seems it seems like it. But who To be fair, I don't think Hailey was a bad person. I think she was overwhelmed by her circumstances, and I think she cared about the kids. Yeah exactly. Do you think Andrew being stabbed in the back was significant of anything? I mean maybe I guess I murdered him.

1:07:17 I was trying to send a message. Yeah, it could be. I guess if you. Were Ira, would you spend your life savings on Nancy's legal defense? Boy, that's a good question. It's one I hope I never have to a choice. I hope I never have to. I don't think you're going to have to worry about hopefully. I think about that in a lot of these all the time too. Families often like go in debt, spend their life savings on their child their brother or whatever. It seemed pretty clear that Ira knew that Nancy was guilty. Remember the scene when the police wanted the key to the storage you in and she said, oh, I can't find it, and Ira said, no, give them the key now, Nancy. Yeah, I don't know if I would be able to spend her life savings on a child that I thought was guilty.

1:08:01 I want them to be defended. But yeah, that is a tough one. That's a tricky question. Hopefully we will never we will never be there. Do you think that Andrew's murder was solved? Like, remember that I didn't elaborate on this enough. Probably, but Carlos and Andrew went way back, like he had been with Andrew for a long time. He said he was like a father to him, even though I think they were kind of close in age, but they were very close. Yeah, So I'm not sure if I see a motive for Carlos. Yeah, I don't really see a motive either. It's odd that his cousin sort of turned on him. I mean, why would your cousin turn on you? Deal? Yeah, if there wasn't something, if.

1:08:42 The prosecutors like there's enough evidence against you, you're gonna well there. I think there was a death sentence on the table too, so that might be enough out. I guess, I am not sure. I would not be shocked if Darish Wolf was somehow involved in there. Really, Yeah, how surreal do you think it is to be Nancy to be in jail for the rest of your life, possibly in Hong Kong, with no family there. I can't even imagine. I mean, it's such a weird situation. I think even just you know, in part one when you described her being in Hong Kong and the family being there and you know, Rob is working all the time, I felt even then like she must feel really isolated and out of her element. But now like being in a Hong Kong prison for the rest of your life.

1:09:30 Oh man, that's yeah, that's really. I assume that she has learned the language. I think at the time of her trial she had not learned the language. But yeah, I don't think that they're speaking English to her. And sure, can we talk again about how Nancy is the worst criminal ever? Yeah? Like, what was her game plan? Obviously she had planned this because she had gone to get drugs for different doctors, and. Yeah, she did not think it through at all though apparently, I mean maybe I don't know. I was gonna say, maybe she just thought she could get off and say that he was abusive toward her. But if she really wanted to take that approach, she would have reported it right away and not wrapped, you know, left his body there for days and wrapped him up in a rug.

1:10:15 So I yeah, I don't know, she just wasn't thinking. It's a little funny to me too, that she had these four men take the rolled up rug to the storage in it, like obviously they knew that there was something in the rug, Yeah that smelled. I don't know, just a very strange situation, is very Do you think that it was self defense? Well, I don't. I don't know, but you didn't really share any There was no seems like there was no credible evidence that he was abusive. But as far as I know, there was no, you know, evidence other I mean the fact that some of her friends did come forward and say, well, I did see some bruises, and you know, she did wear sunglasses and inside that one time.

1:11:03 But the fact that she drugged him, the fact that she hit him so many times when only one blow would have done it. It just seems like it was kind of overkill and planned as well. Yeah, but you know my senses, Rob was a pretty decent man and that Nancy just really wanted out of the marriage. Yeah, he might have been neglectful in that he you know, focused solely on his work and maybe he didn't pay much attention to her. Yeah. But yeah, how did these brothers turn out so differently? I don't know, that's really it is a really wild story. I mean, they were both very ambitious and both had big goals, but they had very different kind of approaches to how they were going to go after those things.

1:11:47 The deficits that Andrew had and his personality he had to you know, use corruption to you know, gain the same amount of stature that his brother had. Yeah. Should white collar criminals serve time and minimum security prison? How do you feel about that? It irritates me. They hate white collar criminals, I think, I know, they should not get special treatment. Yeah, it really irritates me that if you're a wealthy person, there is definitely a different system of justice for you, and it bothers me. That's why I think the tr heos might have been framed a little bit and you know, like the Wolf family possibly had something to do with it. Yeah, and you know made just the your heos.

1:12:32 To the time a convenient target. Yeah. White collar crime can cause serious damage, even if it doesn't leave physical scars. Lives are ruined, savings vanish, and entire communities can be affected. Yet those responsible often faced lighter consequences, using money, influence or top tier lawyers to negotiate reduced sentences or plea deals, and sometimes even end up in more comfortable or favorable prison conditions. It's a reminder that in the justice system, privilege can sometimes weigh heavier than the crime itself. Yeah. I think that's very well. Tiye it up, But it does bother me because I think financial crimes are still crimes. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good point you made that the I think sometimes the impact of those crimes it's not as obvious or as a parent, but people are harmed greatly by white collar crime.

1:13:29 Fridays in our house are great British bakeoff days. We've been watching the new season and enjoying it so far. Are you enjoying it so far? I really am, Although I think I shared with you the other day that I just heard that Preue is leaving the show after this. Season makes me really sad. Love prove. So yeah, well we're going to do a little just a little tribute to Great British Bakeoff and. So you baked me a bunch of stuff that you're going to be No. I actually came across this cute segment on YouTube today. We'll post it in our show notes. It's Paul and Prue. They did the American Bakeoff show, which I think we watched like an episode and we were like last just wasn't the same. But they were doing some press in the United States, so they were Their goal was to determine the best snacks in the United States and they were given like different snacks, you know, to try, and they had to pick you know, A or B. I think I saw this, Oh did you really.

1:14:22 A long time ago? Yes, but fortunately I don't remember it. Well, we'll see. So I'm going to give you the options of what they were given and you're going to have to guess which American snack. These are American snacks that they picked. But before we do that, I want to ask you really quick if an alien came to you and said, Hey, American guy, what is your favorite? What is the best snack food that you can give me? You can give them three things. What would you pick the best or the most prototypically American snack food? I guess you're preferred snack foods. Can pick two or three. I don't know. Twinkies and lace potato.

1:15:05 Chips that those are really interesting choices. I would I would do Cheetos and uh, I don't know. I would maybe do Snickers, but that's because I know what we're about to talk about, all right. The first round, they were given twinkies and ho hose. Okay, which did they prefer? So? I actually do seem to remember that they kind of liked the twinkies. I remember that Prue was like, oh these are it's a nice sponge on here. Oh you did see this. That's the only one I remember, though, So I think they liked the twinkies better. Yeah, and Prue did. She's like, oh it's light lemone. She hated the cream because you know, she used to crep path and it's just not the same. But yeah, you're right, they choose. They chose twinkies. They said the ho hose were not too brilliant Round two Reeses versus Snickers.

1:15:53 Well, I would hope they would say Reese's. But I have a feeling this is. Going to be a tough one on you. So Paul said the chocolate in the American Snickers. He he was like, I love Snickers. Snickers are great. I'm going to pick the Snickers. But then he said, the chocolate here is not the same, which I don't know if I knew that a lot of Yeah, so they and Prude does not like peanut butter, believe it or not. So they chose the Snickers Oreos versus Girl Scout thin Mint cookies. Oh gosh, it's a false equivvent. It is kind of a false equipment. But I'm going to guess they went with the thin mints because they've got that. Minute ycstually liked the thin mint but they chose the Oreo Round four lays versus Ruffles lays. For sure, they liked them both quite a bit, but preferred the lays, calling them more like a British christ That make you want a white bread sandwich with butter and potatoes.

1:16:50 That's an Irish thing. But yeah, that sounds good. I would choose ruffles all day, every day. Round five cheddar Jack cheese ites versus Cool Ranch Doritos, which makes me mad because I love cheese its, but I don't like the cheddar Jack ones because there's a weird powder on them. Which one do you think they chose? I'm going to say they went with the cool Ranch. They did. Yes. They said that the cheddar jag cheeses taste like old socks, quite nasty. They really liked the Doritos. They said they would be good with guacamole. Round six. If you're seen in a store they have those like five gallon buckets of cheeseballs, you there's always these huge gross buckets. So cheeseballs versus flame and hot Cheetos.

1:17:37 Probably the flame and hot Cheetos. I really don't like flame and hot Cheetos. They're gross. But they went with the flame and hot Cheetos. They said all they taste is heat. It's a little bit like chili. But they quite liked them. All right, So round two they're gonna be a couple of new things, and then some repeats. Strawberry parp pop Tarts versus Snickers, which again is kind of a false. That's very very death like apples and oranges, and. Like pop tters. To me, there is only one flavor of pop tarts and cinnamon, So I feel like strawberry pop trts aren't brown sugar cinnamon ones are really good. Yeah, I guess they would go with Snickers. Then they went with the Snickers. They really hated the pop tarts for bolting. Who the hell eats this stuff?

1:18:19 If I was starving and hadn't eaten in six months, I still wouldn't eat it. Paulsa goodness. So yeah, they went with the Snickers. So round eight Twinkies versus Oreos Twinkies Oreos real. They quite liked the Oreo actually, and it was the single I was going to ask classic Oreo. Yeah, okay, I know this is getting along, so we're going to try to wrap it up quickly. Pizza combos versus lays so combos. The cheddar cheese combos are kind of I don't I haven't eaten them in a while because they aren't as good as they used to be, but they used to be my go to road food. Yeah, but the pizza ones, that's that whatever, it's nasty, But what do you think they chose between they seem to like Paul said about the pizza combos, I don't think my dog would eat them.

1:19:04 I don't believe anyone ever eats a second one of those, Through said. Round ten, Cool Ranch to Ritos versus Flame and Hot. Cheetos, Cool Ranch Doritos. Yes, so we're almost done. Round three Oreo versus Snickers. Oh boy, it's getting tough now. Yeah, I'm gonna go with Oreos. That's what I would choose. I would choose a Snicker, but they chose the Oreo. Paul said that he would have picked the British Snickers, but the Sniggers, but not the American one. All right, almost done. Round twelve Lays versus Cool Ranch to Ritos. I'll go with Lays again, Cool Ranch Toritos. Wow, Lays are a very good crisp, but the doritos are more interesting and have a denser flavor. All right, final round. Do you know where we're at?

1:19:51 We're at Oreos and cool Ranch to Ritas. I gotta go with Oreos Cool. Ranch to Ritos. Really, I was kind of shocked. I am very here for you. I didn't have all the snacks for you. I did get you have some some some Doritos, putting up with me and getting through this case. Well the case was super interesting, so no, no snack needed to thank me for that, but thanks, that's always appreciated. And Cool Ranch trios are like a Christmas chip because there's the spices are red and green, if you're noticed that way. I have never looked that closely at a cool Ranch to rito. Of all those snacks, you would, you would choose oreos, you said, Well.

1:20:32 I don't know single stuff oreos. I'm not so sure I like them, but I'm really spoiled by double stuff and even the mega stuff or whatever. They're Yeah, yeah, well I think they are coffee people, and I think they talked a lot about dunking the oreos. And I think you love a Lays chip. I love a Lay's chip too. Yeah, all right, we'll put a fork in us because we are done. We are We are so grateful that you're here. Every listen, follow, review, and share helps this show keep going and reminds us of how lucky we are to have such a thoughtful community. If you'd like to reach out, we're on social media, or you can email us at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And if you want even more content, head to patreon dot com slash lovemrykill. For just five dollars a month, you'll get early ad free episodes and a monthly bonus until next time.

1:21:23 Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. The