Oct. 13, 2025

Nancy and Robert Kissel - Part 2

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Andrew and Robert Kissel grew up just four years apart in a family where wealth and competition went hand in hand. Their father, Bill, was a relentless businessman who demanded success from his sons, and both carried that drive into adulthood in very different ways. Rob built his career as a prominent investment banker, while Andrew often looked for shortcuts in the world of real estate. In 1989, Rob married Nancy Keeshin, a spirited and impulsive woman whose personality contrasted sharply with his serious, ambitious nature. When Rob’s career took the family to Hong Kong, they appeared to be living the dream among the city’s wealthy expatriates. But behind the polished image, cracks in the marriage were starting to show. By November 2003, those tensions reached a breaking point when Rob vanished after a violent fight with Nancy. Soon, the Kissel family name would become infamous on two continents.

Today's snack: Homemade strawberry milkshake

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned and over twenty years of marriage, it's that.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary.

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Kill Happy Friday, Rich.

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Happy Friday, Tina.

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We are recording this on Friday, October third, a very

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important day. Do you know why today is so important?

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I have no idea, but I bet I'll find out.

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Because Taylor Swift dropped her new album last night and midnight.

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Really, how do you like it?

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So I'm not as Swift. Ye, I admire Taylor Swift.

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I think she's great. I think she's really talented and prolific.

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She keeps coming out an album after album twelve. I was

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still up at twelve. I'm always up at twelve, and

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I was probably one of the first to billion people

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listen to it. I didn't listen to the whole thing.

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I just passed forward to every song. Yeah, I've thought

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it was great. Yeah, I didn't love Dead Poets Society

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as much, but I think this one is a good mix.

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Is Dead Poets Society another of her albums, It is.

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Not Dead Poets Society it is the Tortured Poets Department.

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Oh okay, so I'm sure you listened to it when

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you got out this morning.

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I did not, but I didn't even know about it

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until you told me. But now I'm I'm gonna go

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listen to it.

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Are you really?

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Yeah?

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I gotta go.

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Have you ever listened to an entire Taylor Swift album?

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I think I have, maybe once or twice, but I can't.

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I don't couldn't tell you which one. I don't even

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know why. Something led me to one of her albums

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at one point.

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Are you excited for her engagement?

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Oh? So excited. I can't wait to go. Do we

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know when the date is yet?

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Nope, but I'm pretty sure we will not get an invitation.

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What is the last album that you listened to?

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I actually listened to a brand new album from Jeff Tweety.

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Jeff Tweety is from and he came out with a

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new album. It's like a triple album. There's like two

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hours worth of music.

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So you prefer music from people that are sixty and older?

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Hell, I do not discriminate. I do not age discriminate

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in my music selection.

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I think you listen to a lot of older music.

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I do.

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But Jeff, I love Wilco and Jeff Tweety and I

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just heard about this new album that I didn't know

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about it. It's really good.

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Didn't I get it? Get you a book from Jeff Tweety?

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He did. He's written a few books that I've read

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a couple of them.

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Yeaheah. Do you recommend?

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Yeah, he's a really good writer, good guy.

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So I'm a pretty lazy music listener. I go to

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Spotify and I just do a lot of like Mellow

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Evening Playlist. I've been listening to that a lot lately,

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and it just I think it's an amalgamation of things

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that they know that I like.

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Yeah, I think you'll be sad to hear. I just

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heard yesterday that the Yacht Rock Festival is in danger

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of canceling because so many artists have pulled out of it.

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So because they're so old.

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I there's some controversy or something. It's in some Caribbean

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country or something.

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Almost by Venezuela.

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I don't know, but almost every artist has pulled out,

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but the organizers say they are going forward with it.

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Yeah, it's getting scary by Venezuela maybe, and I'm not

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sure if that's why. And I didn't even realize that

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Venezuela was considered to be a Caribbean country until I

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did Amy Bradley case. Recently, we've learned really bad at geography.

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We really have learned a lot. So this is we're

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nearing our two hundredth episode, which is pretty cool for

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three years of work. Something that makes my blood run

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cold is when someone says to us, well, I've been

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listening since day one, or a new listener will say, oh,

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I went back and started at episode one, and I

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pray for you.

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Don't do that. Don't do that.

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I feel like in the last maybe six episodes, we've

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kind of figured things out, but I know some of

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those episodes are a little hard to listen to. So

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we appreciate, we appreciate your support.

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For sure, we're not going to take them down, though

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we're leaving them out there.

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For post there. I tempted to leave them or take

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them down, but you have convinced me that it's better

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to leave them up. Something I don't know if I've

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ever said this, but something that happened when we first

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started recording. People used to kind of give me a

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hard time about interrupting all the time. The reason that

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that happened. I used to listen to the podcast Morbid

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all the time. I was a big fan of Morbid,

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and they had like kind of more of a conversation,

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and they interrupted each other all the time to talk

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about pizza or dogs in the middle of a true

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crime talk. And so I really enjoyed their podcast. So

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I kind of thought it was okay for me to

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do that too. But I have learned, and I think

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I think we've gotten a lot better, for sure. Yeah,

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for sure, we still have a lot to learn. But

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I did bring you a snack today. I would like

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a snack.

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I would like a snack.

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Okay, do you have any guesses what it might be?

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No idea?

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It is a strawberry milkshake.

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Oh wow.

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Remember the significance of the strawberry milkshake.

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To be honest with you, I don't.

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Wow. That was only two days ago. I So Rob

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Kissel had a strawberry milkshake and one of his friends

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was over and Nancy made strawberry milkshakes. And remember the

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neighbor got sick, Well, he didn't get sick, but he

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passed out and his wife couldn't wake him up, and

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then Rob went to the playground and he seemed to

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be kind of out of it. He had one of

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his work.

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Had a call later that night, and his colleague was worried. Exactly,

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it's all coming back to me.

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Okay, do you want to try my milkshake? I sure do. Okay,

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did you like the milkshake?

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That was amazing?

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Oh, really good.

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I mean I'm usually normally like a chocolate milkshake kind

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of guy, but that was so refreshing.

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And I did not put he crushed up cookies. If

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you remember that, there were crushed up cookies in the milkshake.

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But there's not a recipe. I just use some milk

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and some ice cream, and I put a lot of

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strawberries in it because I wanted you to get this

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strawberry flavor.

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Really good, good.

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I'm glad you liked it. If you're not following us

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on Instagram, you might want to follow us on Instagram

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because I'm trying to do maybe once a month, I'm

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going to do like a giveaway. I posted a picture

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of the milkshake and I said, the first person to

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guess the case, I'll send you an Amazon gift card.

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That's kind of a fun thing to do. Yeah, when

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there's a possibility that someone could guess from this nack,

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maybe you could do that too.

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Yeah, great idea.

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Go follow us on Instagram. Do you want to give

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us a summary of part one?

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Sure? Andrew and Robert Kissel were brothers born four years

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apart into a wealthy but intensely competitive family. Their father,

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Bill was a hard driving businessman who demanded success from

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his sons, and the brothers carried that same ambition into adulthood.

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Andrew looked for ways to cut corners to earn success,

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while Rob was willing to do the hard work. Rob

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married Nancy Keishan in nineteen eighty nine. She was free

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spirited and impulsive, a sharp contrast to his serious career

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focus nature. As Rob's investment banking career soared, the couple

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relocated to Hong Kong to ride the wave of Asia's

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booming financial markets, but the move came at a cost.

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Rob's long hours left Nancy isolated, frustrated, and increasingly resentful.

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After the tsar's outbreak sent her and the children to Vermont,

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Nancy met home theater installer Mike del Priori. Their affair

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began quickly, and Nancy confided in him that Rob was abusive. Meanwhile, Rob,

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already suspicious, confirmed her infidelity by hiring a private investigator

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and secretly installing spyware on her computer. On November three,

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two thousand and three, Rob's daughter brought him a strawberry

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milkshake prepared by Nancy, a drink that left both Rob

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and a visiting neighbor strangely drowsy. When we left off,

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Nancy had phoned her father, Ira Kishan in Chicago, tearfully

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claiming that after a violent, abusive fight, Rob had stormed

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out and hadn't read.

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One person that I forgot to mention is Jane. Jane

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is also a sister to Andrew and Rob, five years

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younger than Rob, and we will talk more about her

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in part two.

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Okay, so it.

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Seems that Nancy put something in the milkshake, right. You

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took the milkshake and you drank half of it, I trust,

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and you didn't even ask me if I put anything

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in it. But were you surprised that she gave this

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milkshake to some other guy and and her husband.

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Yeah, that seems very strange. I thought that at the time.

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You said it like that does not seem very smart

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if you're trying to poison your husband.

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Or maybe she was just drugging him, not necessarily poisoning him. Yea,

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she was giving him something too, a sedative to make

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him sleepy. But still I was surprised that she would

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you give it to the neighbor as well. Yeah, maybe

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she thought that it was more likely that Rob would

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drink the milkshake if one was given to both.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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So riina o'she Nancy's childhood best friend, was basically a

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detective to she thought something was off about Nancy's story.

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She called her again, trying to sort out the facts.

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Nancy claimed that after Rob had assaulted her, he ran

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out of the apartment without shoes, keys, or even his wallet,

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and she hadn't heard from him since.

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Now. Briana she had become kind of a confidante of Rob, right,

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even though she was Nancy's friend. Rob had called her

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and they had started talking pretty regularly.

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Right, okay exactly. Briana called Rob's Merrill Lynch office on Monday,

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November fourth and talked with David No his friend and

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co worker. David too was concerned about Rob. He'd missed

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an important conference call on Sunday evening, and that wasn't

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like him. Both Brian and David were sure something dreadful

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had happened to him. They decided to contact the police

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if Rob didn't show up by the next day. On Wednesday,

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Nancy was still acting strangely. She had Min and Connie

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do more shopping for her more rope, peppermin oil, and

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a new comforter for her bed, while she spent most

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of the day in her room with the door locked,

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barring anyone from entry. When they returned from the shopping,

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they noticed an unpleasant odor hanging in the air. The

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old living room carpet was rolled up, covered in black

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trash bags, plastic sheeting, and taped awkwardly. It was lumpy

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and misshapen, as if something or someone was inside of it.

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Boy, that sounds ominous.

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Kanye and Men huddled together to see if the other

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was thinking the same thing. They were horrified when they

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reached the same conclusion. Nancy's behavior, the stench from the

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rolled up carpet, and Rob's sudden disappearance were no coincidence.

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Remind me again who Connie and Men are?

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Connie is the nanny and min is the housekeeper.

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Okay, and they both lived there with Nancy and Rob.

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Yeah, that's a good question. We didn't talk about that

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in the first episode. They lived in a closet. It

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was like a closet that they had put a couple

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of beds in. It must have been a generous I

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hope it was a generous sized cluset. But they were

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cousins and you know, pretty much a part of the family.

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That afternoon, four men from the Park Hu's maintenance crew

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came to take the rolled up rug to the storage area.

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The smell was bad enough to make them wretch, but

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they did as they were told and stowed the rug.

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November can still be very hot and humid in Hong Kong.

238
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The heat and humidity remained unbearable, worsening the putrid odor.

239
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.200
Later that day, Ibra Keish and Nancy's father arrived in

240
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.879
Hong Kong. He tried to console his daughter and took

241
00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:35.720
her to the hospital, where she grew impatient and left

242
00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:40.279
without being seen. I revisited with his grandchildren, but badly jetlagged.

243
00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:43.279
He retired to the Parkview Hotel for the evening. He

244
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.639
remembered from part one they had gone to the police

245
00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.879
station first, and the police station said, well, if you're

246
00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:53.320
going to file a report against your husband, we need

247
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:54.840
to have proof, so you need to go to the

248
00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.240
hospital and have this form filled out.

249
00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.000
And because she said that he broke her.

250
00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.559
Ribs, Connie, unsure of what to do, emailed Bryna and

251
00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.759
told her to call Rhina asked Connie if she could

252
00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.000
go to the storage unit and look inside the rug,

253
00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.519
but she was too scared to confront when she guessed

254
00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:15.440
was inside, Rhina called David No, Rob's co worker to

255
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:18.679
ask him what they should do. He decided to call

256
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:23.159
the police. The wealthy expatriate community in Hong Kong wielded

257
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:28.000
enormous influence, both socially and politically. Many held high ranking

258
00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:33.559
positions in multinational corporations or had connections with powerful figures

259
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.399
back home. The police understood that any misstep in handling

260
00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:41.600
a case involving them could spark outrage, not just locally,

261
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.519
but on an international scale. A single error in judgment

262
00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:49.720
might be interpreted as bias, negligence, or even corruption, and

263
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:54.720
the fallout could strain diplomatic relations. As a result, investigators

264
00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:57.919
knew they had to tread carefully balancing the pursuit of

265
00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.840
justice with the delicate task of protecting Hong Kong's reputation

266
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.440
on the world stage. So this case got a lot

267
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:10.039
of attention. Police obtained a warrant for the Parkview storage unit,

268
00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.679
and even before the door was opened, the unmistakable stench

269
00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.200
of death seeped out. So his body had been in

270
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.759
their apartment for I believe four days, Okay, so you

271
00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:21.519
can imagine.

272
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:22.200
Yeah.

273
00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.480
At eleven PM, they went to the Kissel's apartment and

274
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.399
asked for the key to the storage unit. Nancy claims

275
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.519
she'd lost it. She woke Ira in his hotel and

276
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:36.279
hysterically demanded he come help her. He rushed upstairs, quickly

277
00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.600
understanding the situation, He demanded Nancy hand over the key

278
00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.480
to the police. She seemed to be in a state

279
00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:46.279
of shock, no longer able to speak, and trembling violently.

280
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.720
Ira leaped into action. He demanded that an ambulance be

281
00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.279
called immediately for Nancy, his stern voice cutting through the

282
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.720
chaotic scene. Once he was sure his grandchildren were saved,

283
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.480
he phoned home to the US and struck that an

284
00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.159
attorney be secured for Nancy without delay. He asked Connie

285
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.039
to tend to the children and take them to a

286
00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.440
hotel the next day. She wept as she promised Iras

287
00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.320
she would keep them safe. Ibra went with Nancy in

288
00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.879
the ambulance, shocked by the number of police and media

289
00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:19.360
who had already descended upon the building. Meanwhile, at two

290
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.240
a m. The Hong Kong police opened the carpet and

291
00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.759
found Rob Kissel inside dead. They estimated that he'd been

292
00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:30.399
dead for ninety six hours. Nancy had slept with her

293
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:35.159
dead husband in the bedroom for four days that Connie

294
00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.360
called Bryna to tell her the news. She realized that

295
00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.480
the task of notifying the Kissel family was likely left

296
00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:44.840
to her. She knew all of them, Bill, Jane, and Andrew.

297
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.720
She wasn't sure who to call, but finally decided on Andrew,

298
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:52.759
Rob's older brother. He was stunned to learn of Rob's death.

299
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.399
Though he and Nancy didn't care for each other, the

300
00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.600
idea that she could be responsible for Rob's death left

301
00:14:58.679 --> 00:14:59.679
him reeling.

302
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.799
A little perplexed at what Nancy's plan was here. It

303
00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.600
seems like she didn't really hadn't really thought about what

304
00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.720
she was going to do after killing him. Leaving him

305
00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:11.720
in the room for four days, and then just wrapping

306
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:12.200
him in a.

307
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.480
Rug on having four men put his body in the

308
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:19.759
storage unit. I think that shows that her mental state

309
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:21.919
might have been not right.

310
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.320
Yeah. Nancy emerged from her catatonic like state at the

311
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.519
hospital when she again complained that she thought her ribs

312
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.240
might be broken. The emergency room doctors noted a few

313
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.320
fading bruises and abrasions, but nothing serious. While still at

314
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.919
the hospital, Nancy was arrested and then taken to a

315
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.720
jam packed hospital ward lined with beds of ill patients.

316
00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:47.960
Suddenly aware of her surroundings, she screamed, I'm not staying here.

317
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.279
You can't do this to me. Let me go, Let

318
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.039
me go. I've got to get out. The autopsy revealed

319
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.519
Rob had been struck five times in the head with

320
00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.919
a blunt object, each blow powerful enough to kill him.

321
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.120
His skull was shattered, fragments lodged in his brain, with

322
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.840
brain matter seeping from the wounds. The lack of defensive

323
00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.919
injuries suggested the attack came while he was unconscious. After

324
00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.919
Rob was dead, Nancy taped a plastic bag around his

325
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.559
head and then wrapped him in towels trash bags, and

326
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.159
then a sleeping bag. She wound plastic sheeting over the

327
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.759
cocoon and then taped it securely into place, before rolling

328
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.679
his body in the rug and again taping it closed.

329
00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.440
When Rob was unwrapped, a lead statuette was found with

330
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.399
him crusted in blood, the beloved piece that had belonged

331
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:41.720
to Nancy's grandmother. Rob's toxicology report showed five different drugs,

332
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.440
all with sedative effects in his stomach and liver. There

333
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:47.480
was alcohol in his blood, but very little.

334
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.799
Do you remember when Nancy had gone to different doctors

335
00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.759
she got ambient and well, what are the other things

336
00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.600
that she got? I can't remember the raraz apam. She

337
00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.759
had at least five or six day diferent drugs that

338
00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.720
she obtained from her psychiatrist and a physician.

339
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:05.880
Yeah, I had forgotten about that.

340
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.400
And those drugs all matched the drugs that were in

341
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:09.559
Rob's system.

342
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.160
The crime scene the Kissel's bedroom was very bloody. The

343
00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.240
carpet at the end of the bed was the most saturated.

344
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.480
The blood spatter was low on the walls, indicating that

345
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.000
Rob had been struck when he was likely lying on

346
00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.960
the floor. It wasn't clear whether Nancy was physically unable

347
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.799
to speak or simply refusing to, but she communicated by

348
00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.640
blinking in response to yes or no questions. She seemed

349
00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.960
to understand her dire circumstances. The case against her was strong.

350
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.640
The lawyer who Ira hired for her advised Nancy not

351
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.799
to speak to anyone, especially the police, about what had happened.

352
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.920
She blinked to signify that she understood. Telling the children.

353
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:56.640
Elaine nine June sixth and Rice four weighed heavily on Ira.

354
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.519
He told it Lane first. She cried for a minute,

355
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.279
but then went back to playing with her siblings, not

356
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.519
understanding their enormous loss. Ira thought his son in Nancy's

357
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.920
half brother, Brooks, a medical student who had received training

358
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.359
in child psychology, was better equipped to tell the two

359
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.440
younger children. He was on his way to Hong Kong

360
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.880
from the States. He went to visit Nancy in the hospital. First,

361
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:24.400
she asked about her children, but that was about all.

362
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.640
She asked that he'd bring her laptop and her jewelry

363
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:28.039
to her.

364
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.160
That seems really strange to me because she's in the hospital,

365
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:36.759
but she's under security, yeah, and she was allowed to

366
00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.039
have those things. Really surprised me, that is strange.

367
00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:41.759
But why would she even ask for her jewelry? That

368
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:43.880
seemed the laptop I can sort of understand, but the

369
00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:45.200
jewelry seems odd.

370
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.319
Well, don't you think the laptop would be in police possession?

371
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.880
Right? Yeah. The Kissel family, too, was on their way

372
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.680
to Hong Kong, their suitcases stuffed with gifts for Elaine,

373
00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:00.000
June and Rice. Beneath the wrapping paper and good intentions, however,

374
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.599
lay a far more serious purpose. They were prepared to

375
00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.279
fight for custody, though it remained uncertain who among them

376
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.400
was truly equipped to guide the children through such a

377
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:14.960
painful and uncertain transition. The Kissels and the Kishans met

378
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.279
to discuss custody of the children. Ira tried to keep

379
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.680
it amicable, but everything was a competition. To Bill Kissel,

380
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.599
he brought an attorney to the meeting. Nancy wanted the

381
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.279
children to live with her father, but her wishes didn't

382
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.000
hold much water considering what she had done. Bill wanted

383
00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.960
Andrew and Hayley to have custody. He argued that they

384
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.279
had two children similar in age and had a lifestyle

385
00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:41.759
similar to what they were accustomed to. Ira knew that

386
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.519
Andrew was volatile and likely an alcoholic and drug user,

387
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.759
not to mention narcissistic and morally corrupt.

388
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.839
I am not very nice to Andrew, but we'll get

389
00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:52.000
to that.

390
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:53.880
She sounds like Ira didn't have a high opinion of

391
00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:54.279
him either.

392
00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:55.759
No, no, I did.

393
00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.279
If Andrew became their guardian, he would have access to

394
00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.519
Rob's twenty million dollar estate, a huge incentive to him.

395
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.680
There was no resolution after the meeting, but Bill went

396
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.480
to Rob's office and stole the children's passports so Ira

397
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.079
couldn't bring them to Chicago. It's so sad. I just

398
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.359
hate this so much when the kids get in the middle,

399
00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.119
especially when there's so much money attached to the kids

400
00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.319
that you know the incentive is, oh, I want custody

401
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.759
of the kids, but what you really want is the money.

402
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:26.519
I think we're going to talk about this in a minute.

403
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.279
But Andrew and Haley's marriage was crumbling at this point,

404
00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.359
so you know, they definitely should were not.

405
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.240
In a good place to that. We'll be back after

406
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:35.680
a break.

407
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:46.440
In the following days, several people visited the Kissel's apartment.

408
00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:50.279
The crime scene hadn't been cleaned up. The bedroom was

409
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.720
especially grizzly and the smell of death and dka lingered.

410
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.640
A neighbor who had a key brought several friends to

411
00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:02.119
tour the crime scene. Connie came to get some of

412
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:05.680
the children's clothes and belongings, and Brooks went in to

413
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.359
get Nancy's laptop. The crime scene hadn't been closed off,

414
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.839
and several items that should have been of interest to police,

415
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.359
including Nancy's laptop, had been left behind. Police did, however,

416
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:20.000
go through the cameras at park View and found video

417
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.960
of Nancy carrying new rugs into the apartment. They also

418
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.400
found love letters to Nancy from Mike and the report

419
00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.920
from the private investigator. Early on, they had a clear

420
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.960
picture of what transpired. On November twelve, the police once

421
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.160
again returned to the apartment. They took Nancy's purse, which

422
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:41.799
contained the five prescriptions that she'd secured before Rob's death,

423
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.880
and they matched the toxicology report. Later that day, the

424
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.920
police released the apartment and Connie and Mint set to

425
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.079
work cleaning it before the children returned. There were several

426
00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.599
bags of evidence, blood soaked towels and linens found in

427
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.400
the children's closets that the police had missed I'm painting

428
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.319
a picture here, right. The police really didn't do a

429
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.839
job securing this crime scene. Connie and Brooks cared for

430
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:11.079
the children in the Kissel's apartment. Connie was like family.

431
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.200
She'd been the children's primary caregiver for most of their

432
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.039
young lives. She would not leave their sides. Do you

433
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:19.039
remember who Brooks is?

434
00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:20.400
I'm sorry to say I don't.

435
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.119
Okay, Brooks is Nancy's half brother.

436
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:23.119
Okay.

437
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.759
Surprisingly, on November fifteenth, Bill Kissel relinquished his fight for

438
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.839
custody of the children. He let Ira take them back

439
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:36.119
to Chicago. Hayley Andrew's wife helped make the decision. She

440
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.519
thought they'd be better off with Ira, who they loved

441
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.880
and trusted. Connie accompanied them back to the US.

442
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.440
I'm a little surprised that the Kissels gave up that easily.

443
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:50.039
Me too. Nancy's arraignment was pushed back twice due to

444
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.400
her health. She was confined to a wheelchair, unable to

445
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.960
walk and spoke very little. She was left in China

446
00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:59.920
alone while Ira and the children flew back to the US.

447
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.279
The Kissels wanted nothing to do with her. When Ira

448
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.400
was back in Chicago with his grandchildren. He was met

449
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.759
with the reality of the situation. He was sixty one,

450
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.359
and although he was in good shape, he didn't feel

451
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.960
mentally or physically capable of meeting the demands of three

452
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.240
traumatized young children. He was exhausted, and his wife was

453
00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.960
horrified by the entire unseemly affair and sadly wanted nothing

454
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.319
to do with the children. It is very sad. Brooks,

455
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:34.160
Nancy's half brother, was twenty four, single and in medical

456
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.319
school in Cincinnati. He decided to take a leave of

457
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.680
absence from school and care for the children. He made

458
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:45.319
a plan. His mother, Joyce, IRA's second wife, not Nancy's mother,

459
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.400
offered to help him, and Connie agreed to stay on.

460
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:53.200
Ira would visit as often as possible. The Kishans wanted

461
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.519
the children to have a loving, stable, middle class lifestyle.

462
00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:59.680
Ira hoped that Bill Kissel would see this was the

463
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.799
best possible arrangement. Here's an excerpt from the letter he

464
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.519
sent Bill. We believe the children's long term needs are

465
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.119
best met in a stable, loving environment. My wife and

466
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.759
I cannot take on the demands of raising three young children. Elaine, June,

467
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:20.519
and Rice have adjusted remarkably well under Connie's continuity and

468
00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:25.319
Brooks daily care. He has proven capable of managing their needs,

469
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:29.880
and we believe their placement with him and Cincinnati should continue.

470
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.200
Our hope is that this decision will not create conflict

471
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.200
between the Kissel and Keishan families. Above all, we must

472
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:40.480
remain united in love and support of the children. God

473
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.799
bless us all. Ira.

474
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.599
So, was Connie from Hong Kong or did she.

475
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:47.720
Go to She was from I'm not sure if she

476
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:49.119
might have been Korean?

477
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.519
Okay, so, but she moved to the States.

478
00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:52.400
She moved to the States.

479
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.319
Oh It's commitment.

480
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.039
Ira had purchased a home for Brooks, Connie, and the children.

481
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.559
It was undergoing renovations and the Meanwhile, while they were

482
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.200
living in Brooks's basement apartment, Bill was horrified. When he visited.

483
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.720
He pressured Haley and Andrew to take the children, despite

484
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.960
Haley's reservations. On Christmas Day two thousand and three, Ira

485
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.960
and Bill faced off again in a Cincinnati hotel room

486
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:20.480
while the children played nearby. Bill was confrontational, warning Ira

487
00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.960
that he would bankrupt him if custody wasn't turned over

488
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.640
to Andrew immediately. Though the Kishans were comfortable financially, they

489
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:31.640
were no match for the Kissel's family resources, which could

490
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:36.480
easily overwhelm them. Through drawn out legal battles. Bill threatened

491
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.559
to ruin their lives, especially Brooks and his future as

492
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.960
a doctor. They believed Bill to be a vengeful man,

493
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.960
and true to his word, they capitulated and gave custody

494
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.400
of the children to Haley and Andrew, who were then

495
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.319
living in Greenwich, Connecticut. Brooks, by the way, went on

496
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:57.359
to become a professor in pediatrics at the University of Utah,

497
00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:02.440
a child abused pediatrician and a child psychiatrist, So he

498
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.079
probably would have done a wonderful job raising the tilt.

499
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:06.920
Yeah, it seems like he would have been well qualified.

500
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.119
Hong Kong's prisons are run by the Correctional Services Department

501
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:14.240
and are known for their strict discipline and rigid routines.

502
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.839
Facilities are generally clean but austere, with little privacy and

503
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.799
cells that may be overcrowded. Inmates where uniforms followed tightly

504
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:27.480
structured daily schedules, and are required to work in prison

505
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:32.559
industries such as laundry, carpentry or garment manufacturing. While the

506
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:38.240
system emphasizes rehabilitation offering vocational training, education, and counseling that

507
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:43.079
also enforces strict rules with punishments for infractions, raging from

508
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.440
loss of privileges to solitary confinement. Family contact is limited

509
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:53.960
to monitored visits, censored mail, and occasional phone calls. Although

510
00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.400
Hong Kong's prisons followed strict rules for all inmates, some

511
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:01.680
observers speculated that Nancy kissel Is, a wealthy American expatriate

512
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:05.640
in a high profile case, might have experienced subtle differences

513
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.000
in treatment. She would have been subject to the same uniforms,

514
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:13.079
labor and routines as other prisoners, but authorities might have

515
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.799
ensured her basic needs or privileges were carefully managed to

516
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:22.319
avoid international criticism or diplomatic tension. After she was released

517
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.200
from the hospital, Nancy was sent to the Sioux Lamb

518
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:29.160
Psychiatric Center for evaluation. The doctors found her to be

519
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:32.920
of good mental health. Does that surprise you a little bit?

520
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.759
Me too? During her time at the detention center, several

521
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:42.359
acquaintances from the expatriate community rallied around Nancy, convinced that

522
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.079
she was a battered woman who had struck back at

523
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.359
her abuser. They visited her several times a week and

524
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.599
became her advocates. Although Nancy had been estranged from her

525
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.839
mother since the incident years earlier, she asked her new

526
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:58.759
friends to reach out to her and encouraged her to

527
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.039
come for a visit. You remember when she pushed her

528
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.920
mom out of the apartment after she criticized her parenting. Yes,

529
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:09.039
it had been years earlier. It took Nancy six months

530
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.000
to write to her children. Her letters were light and breezy,

531
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.839
asking them how summer camp was and how much ice

532
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.720
cream they'd eaten. She had never explained what happened to

533
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.079
their father or where she was, just that she was

534
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.960
doing better and needed rest. The children never wrote back

535
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.039
to her as far as I know. Eventually she decided

536
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:30.720
it was better not to communicate with them. She was

537
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.720
sure they were safe with Haley and Andrew. She'd let

538
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.359
them get on with their lives so she could focus

539
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.480
on her legal defense. On November one, two thousand and four,

540
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:44.119
a year after Rob's murder, to everyone's shock, the judge

541
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:48.240
in the case, Michael Birell, set Nancy's bail at one

542
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:52.880
million dollars. Nancy Kissel was the first person ever to

543
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.160
receive to bail after being charged with murder in Hong Kong.

544
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:00.400
Her wealthy expatriate friends happily put the money up for her.

545
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:04.160
With the trials set for May two thousand and five,

546
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.119
I re liquidated all of his assets to pay for

547
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:12.319
Nancy's legal defense and still came up a million dollars short. Surprisingly,

548
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:16.559
one of Rob's former Goldman Sex colleagues stepped forward and

549
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:18.759
offered to pay Nancy's legal bills.

550
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.440
Oh, this whole paragraph you just read is kind of

551
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.240
blowing my mind, Like, yeah, I would think an expatriot

552
00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:26.359
would be the last person you would want to grant

553
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:28.880
bail too, because there's going to be a huge risk

554
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:30.920
of flight that they're going to fly back to the

555
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.319
US and make it much more complicated.

556
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.000
I think any time anyone is given bail in a

557
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.079
murder situation is surprising to me.

558
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:40.480
But yeah, especially yea if they're facing life in prison,

559
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:44.799
you know, you weigh the choice of fleeing versus life

560
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.000
in prison. Yeah, it's definitely a risk. But then Rob's

561
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.599
former colleague stepping or multiple colleagues.

562
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:54.680
Well, no, the one colleague was paying for her legal

563
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.160
defense was just one. Okay, the expatriot community posted her bail.

564
00:29:58.279 --> 00:29:59.279
Okay, gotcha.

565
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.960
Nancy's expatriot friends rented an apartment for her. Each day

566
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.599
she went to her lawyer's office to work on her case.

567
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.400
Nancy allegedly was a terror in the office and bullied

568
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.880
the paralegals. She wanted to plead self defense, but her

569
00:30:13.960 --> 00:30:17.799
lawyer cautioned her against it. The brutality of the skull

570
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:21.039
crushing blows that she delivered to Rob win against the

571
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:25.119
notion of self defense because each blow was enough to

572
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:28.839
kill him. Yeah, she did five blows to the right.

573
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:34.440
Nancy considered claiming that she suffered from disassociative amnesia, that

574
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:38.519
Rob's attack had caused her to forget the traumatic event altogether,

575
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:43.480
but her legal team again cautioned her against it. Nancy's mother, Jean,

576
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.319
moved to Hong Kong to support her, but their constant

577
00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:51.799
bickering maybe arrangement very unpleasant time in jail hadn't made

578
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.160
Nancy any more kind or gracious.

579
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.559
In nineteen ninety four, Rob invested five hundred thousand dollars

580
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.880
in An Andrew's new real estate venture, which focused on

581
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:08.079
revitalizing up and coming neighborhoods. In other words, gentrification. He

582
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.960
named his company hand Rock, for Hayley Andrew, Nancy and

583
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:16.119
Rob By the year two thousand, he owned forty five buildings,

584
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:20.440
comprising a total of fourteen hundred apartments. It's a big, big.

585
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.119
Business, right, Yeah, he's doing well.

586
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.880
So consumed with his image, Andrew even bought out two

587
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.680
neighbors in his apartment building, one beside him and one below.

588
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.720
He combined the units into a sprawling two story showplace,

589
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.359
the largest and most extravagant apartment in the building. Neighbors,

590
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.640
impressed with his apparent success and ingenuity, invested in his

591
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:43.319
new company.

592
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:46.400
So the name of his company is hand Rock. Do

593
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.920
you think that's his way of manipulating his brother, who

594
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:51.720
has a lot of money, Like, I'm to name my

595
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:53.200
company for us brother.

596
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.599
Yeah, there's kind of an unusual move, naming your company

597
00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:59.880
with your brother's name and your brother's wife wife's name.

598
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.839
So yeah, I guess he wanted his brother to feel

599
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:04.400
part of the team.

600
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:09.039
Or more willing to give him a bigger investment.

601
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:13.400
Right. Andrew had served as treasurer of his Manhattan co

602
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.759
op board since nineteen ninety five, a position that gave

603
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.720
him access to the building's finances, he alone received the

604
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.599
financial statements and held the checkbook. He suggested to the

605
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.599
board that they remodeled the lobby and hallways of the building.

606
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:32.480
During renovations, he padded invoices and quietly pocketed the difference.

607
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.720
Andrew skimmed money from his neighbors for years, taking a

608
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:40.319
cut at every opportunity when there was a necessary service

609
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.079
or project in the building. He set up sham companies

610
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:47.400
to invoice the co op, then paid the bills himself,

611
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.559
essentially funneling the co ops money straight into his own pocket.

612
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.640
He had even borrowed two million dollars under the co

613
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:58.160
op's name. But in two thousand and three, a sharp

614
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:02.519
new board member grew suspicious after reviewing the financial reports,

615
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:06.000
the renovations to the lobby had somehow cost over a

616
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:09.680
million dollars. The lobby looked fine, but no one could

617
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:13.279
understand the million dollar price tag, and soon the board

618
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:17.640
began scrutinizing the invoices more closely. I don't understand how

619
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:19.359
people think they're going to get away with that kind

620
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:20.720
of thing for long.

621
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.799
He got away with it for years.

622
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:27.599
Wow, Andrew knew he was in real trouble. He admitted

623
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.359
to stealing one million dollars from the co op and

624
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:32.759
was ready to pay the money back, but the board

625
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:35.920
hired a forensic accountant who found that he had actually

626
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:40.079
diverted four point seven million dollars from the co op's

627
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.200
account into his own.

628
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.480
So I don't know how much money that everyone pays

629
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.480
their co op every month, but I know what it's

630
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.400
got to be in New York. It must be at

631
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.880
least one thousand dollars on top of your rent that

632
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.720
goes that account.

633
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:56.920
Eventually, Andrew reached a settlement with the board to avoid

634
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.200
criminal charges paying back the four point seven million. He

635
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.839
liquidated twenty five million dollars worth of New Jersey properties

636
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.039
from han Rock to raise the money, funds that should

637
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:11.119
have been shared among investors like his neighbors and rob

638
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.320
or his estate after his death. Instead of paying them,

639
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.639
Andrew concealed the sales and kept about twenty million dollars,

640
00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:22.079
which he funneled into fraudulent real estate deals in Connecticut.

641
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:26.679
After the co op fiasco, Andrew moved to Greenwich, Connecticut,

642
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:30.079
and rented a huge house for fourteen thousand dollars a month,

643
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.719
leaving Haley and their two daughters in the Manhattan apartment

644
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.559
to finish the school year. Haley, unaware of the scandal,

645
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:41.400
didn't understand why her neighbors were suddenly stand offish and

646
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:46.079
glared at her Icily, the co op business was peanuts

647
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:50.199
compared to Andrew's next scandal. Using forged statements and a

648
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:54.719
stolen notary stamp, Andrew tricked banks into issuing massive mortgages

649
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:59.360
on already mortgage properties, then recycled the proceeds as down

650
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.760
payments to secure even more loans. The scheme depended on

651
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:08.800
precision and discipline, traits that Andrew sorely lacked. Learning of

652
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.679
Rob's death at Nancy's hands only distracted him further. He

653
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:16.239
had built a fragile house of cards. So Andrew just

654
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:19.239
seems like somebody who is trying to take every shortcut

655
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.360
he can to wealth.

656
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:25.800
Exactly and burning bridges along the way. I'm not sure

657
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:28.480
if I explained that well enough, because it's pretty complicated

658
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.639
what he was doing. Yeah, but a stolen notary stamp

659
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:35.880
can really get you a long way, because he forged documents,

660
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.960
had this notary stamp that you know, looks very official.

661
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:41.159
So he would go to a bank and say this

662
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.280
apartment is completely paid off in full, so then they

663
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.039
would give him, you know, money based on that mortgage

664
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:47.760
that was paid off.

665
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:49.920
Wow, it kind of reminds me of a catch me

666
00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:52.880
if you can that look like just you know, you

667
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.800
kind of always have to say one step ahead of your.

668
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.880
Scams, right, And that was my point that you know,

669
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.320
Andrew doesn't have the personality and you know the fine

670
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:07.679
details that he needs to have to so you know, eventually.

671
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:08.199
It's going to catch up to him.

672
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:09.480
It's going to catch up to him exactly.

673
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.880
Andrew was on a path of self destruction, burning through

674
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.480
money and making impulsive decisions. He would think nothing of

675
00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:21.079
spending fifty thousand dollars in a weekend treating his friends

676
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:24.840
and seducing women. What he lacked in personality and character,

677
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.440
he bought. Among the thirty cars in his fleet were

678
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:32.079
four ferraris. He also owned a three point six million

679
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.199
dollar ninety three foot yacht that he named the Special Caves.

680
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.920
He also snapped up a restaurant, a liquor store, an

681
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.400
olive oil company, even a horse stable, all to feed

682
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:47.760
his ego. His reckless spending extended to an investment in

683
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:51.719
an off Broadway show called Pieces of Ass. Haven't heard

684
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:52.000
of that?

685
00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.079
One I have any either heard. I forgot to do research,

686
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:57.400
but I'm guessing that it didn't make it to Broadway.

687
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.400
Yeah, but beneath the flash and blood, Andrew's so called

688
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.840
empire rested on a shaky foundation of real estate fraud.

689
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.920
After catching him with another woman in February two thousand

690
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:12.880
and five, Haley filed for divorce. She asked for seven

691
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:16.400
million dollars in the settlement. She fully expected Andrew to

692
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:19.159
end up in jail because of his shady business dealings.

693
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.880
She told his sister Jane at the time, I hate

694
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:25.400
to say it, but every time I see Rob's kids

695
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.280
now I see Andrew in them. I hate to take

696
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:31.360
it out on them, but I can't help it. That's

697
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.480
really an awful thing to say.

698
00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:37.079
Yeah, it is. You remember, Haley used to be a

699
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:41.639
competitive skier, and skiing is really important to the Kissel family.

700
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:45.199
And Haley used to coach Jane, so they were pretty

701
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.920
close friends. Okay, a lot of times Haley would confide

702
00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:51.760
in Jane, and probably, you know, based on this comment,

703
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.079
she said a lot of things that she probably shouldn't have.

704
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:58.719
Yeah. Andrew's downward spiral only worsened after he learned his

705
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.559
marriage was over, he no longer bothered to keep up appearances.

706
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:06.480
His drinking and drug use became rampant, unchecked, and his

707
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:11.119
business dealings equally unstable. He turned out counterfeit deeds to

708
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.960
properties he owned that showed them paid off in full.

709
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:18.599
He then used the forged documents to secure new fraudulent mortgages,

710
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.840
sometimes even obtaining multiple loans on the same property from

711
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:27.559
different banks. Ultimately, he swindled banks out of thirty million.

712
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.639
Dollars I saw estimates as high as fifty million dollars.

713
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.800
Oh, and he sank deeper into debt, deception, and ruin.

714
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:38.639
He even had a fraudulent mortgage on his skihouse in Vermont.

715
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:43.519
But Andrew's scams didn't end with forged mortgages. In New Jersey,

716
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:46.719
he devised another scam at the expense of family and friends,

717
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:51.639
including Rob's estate. He quietly sold off apartment complexes that

718
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:55.639
investors believed were still part of their portfolios, making money,

719
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.159
but Andrew had sold the properties and pocketed the profits.

720
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:03.679
He continued to pay out dividends to investors, creating the

721
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:08.480
illusion that their investments were sound. Friends, relatives, even people

722
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.000
who trusted him with their retirement funds later discovered that

723
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.519
they had been duped by a man with no legitimate

724
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.199
assets to his name. But Andrew was running out of time.

725
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:20.239
Hanging out those dividends was.

726
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:25.039
Pretty genius, really really, Yeah. I mean it's gonna at

727
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:28.159
least delay them figuring things out. But boy, it's just

728
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.519
this whole thing is giving me stress because he's just

729
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.280
building this house of cards that is going to collapse

730
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:33.639
on him.

731
00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:36.320
Well, and he had a lot of He gave them statements,

732
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.920
but they were all counterfeit.

733
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.280
Yeah. Meanwhile, Haley and Andrew were still sharing a home.

734
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.199
She reached her breaking point managing all five children and

735
00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:50.280
the household while Andrew lived the playboy lifestyle. In an

736
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.760
email to Jane, she wrote, God, I hate your brother.

737
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:57.559
He is just such an awful, pathetic person. I just

738
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.159
fucking hate him. His I Am the King attitude, his

739
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:05.960
value system or lack thereof, his anger, his meanness. I

740
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.920
just hate him. He will never be a good, responsible person.

741
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.039
I just can't believe how he can so readily shirk

742
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.360
his responsibility to his family. He is horrible, just horrible,

743
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.679
and I hate his fucking guts. Do you know last

744
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.280
night in bed I could actually see myself pummeling him

745
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.360
to death and just enjoying the sensation of each and

746
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:29.519
every shot. And then this morning, as I pulled out

747
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:31.840
of the garage to go to spin class, all I

748
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:35.159
wanted to do was crash into his ferraris. He put

749
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.440
this stupid pole in the garage so that I would

750
00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.440
know where to stop my car when I pulled into

751
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:42.519
the garage, because you know how incompetent I am that

752
00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:45.199
I can't even park my car. Do you know I

753
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:48.239
intentionally bang into the thing every time I park as

754
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:53.360
an act of defiance. I hate him.

755
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.159
Some excavation points at a lot of capital letters in

756
00:40:58.199 --> 00:40:58.679
that email.

757
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.679
That is a very very emotional email. Jane, the most

758
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.920
decent of the Kissels, decided she needed to intervene on

759
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.880
behalf of Elaine, June and Rice. She called Andrew and

760
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:13.880
told him to relinquish custody or she would sue him.

761
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:17.639
But it was Haley who fought back. She knew that

762
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.360
Andrew was close to financial ruin, with herself close behind.

763
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.119
She wanted to keep Nancy and Rob's kids because they

764
00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:29.320
came with a big paycheck. We'll be back after a break.

765
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.920
Nancy Kissel's trial began in Hong Kong on June seventh,

766
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.599
two thousand and five, and quickly became one of the

767
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:47.079
most sensational court cases the city had ever seen. Presided

768
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:51.199
over by Judge Michael Lunn, the proceedings stretched on for

769
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:55.440
nearly three months, with every twist and turn reported in

770
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:59.920
the international press. Nancy remained free on bail. She sat

771
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.719
poised and polished while prosecutors painted her as a calculating

772
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:09.039
woman who murdered her husband in cold blood. The jury,

773
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:12.440
five men and two women, listened as the prosecution laid

774
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:16.280
out its narrative in English. They argued that Nancy had

775
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:20.039
drugged rob with a lethal cocktail hidden inside a milkshake,

776
00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:23.599
ludgeoned him to death with the lead statue, then wrapped

777
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.000
his body in a carpet and hid it in the storeroom.

778
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:29.519
To them, this was a crime of greed and betrayal,

779
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.360
carried out by a wife desperate to escape her failing marriage,

780
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:38.079
but unwilling to sacrifice her privileged lifestyle. The defense told

781
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.960
a different story. They described Nancy as a battered wife

782
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:45.880
trapped in an abusive marriage with a domineering, drug dependent husband.

783
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.159
They claimed that she acted out of desperation and fear,

784
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.960
not malice, and that her actions reflected years of trauma

785
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:58.039
rather than a carefully orchestrated plan. Her attorneys appointed to

786
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:02.480
Rob's cocaine use followed to temper and financial pressures as

787
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.400
evidence of the hostile environment. She endured, I should say

788
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:10.280
that there is no evidence that Rob abused cocaine his

789
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.440
blood at the time of his death during the autoxy

790
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:16.039
I don't think was tested for it, but no one

791
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:20.440
in his life can point to him ever using cocaine.

792
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.239
The case captured public imagination and the same way the

793
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.719
OJ Simpson trial had in the United States. The Hong

794
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:31.679
Kong media coined it the Milkshake Murder. The nickname trivialized

795
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.320
Rob's tragic death, but reflected the fascination of the public's

796
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:40.039
interest a deadly milkshake, a family unraveling in an expatriate

797
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:43.920
community caught up in the salacious scandal. A parade of

798
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:48.239
witnesses testified that Nancy was difficult and sometimes near impossible.

799
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:52.360
Kanie and Men both testified for two days each. Min

800
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.559
said that Nancy could be cruel and hot tempered, and

801
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.599
neither had heard the couple fighting on the night in question.

802
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:03.599
Computer ex Spurt testified that a Dell laptop contained Google

803
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:08.039
searches for drugs that kill without a trace. There were

804
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.800
two desktops in the Kissel's apartment with some interesting searches

805
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:15.280
on their hard drives from April eighth, just before Rob

806
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.360
set off for a business trip to Taiwan. During this time,

807
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.480
Nancy and the kids were in the States. They were

808
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:29.760
definitely from Rob. They include mpeg sex sex and Taiwan

809
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:34.239
hot mail sex, anal cos gay anal sex, bisexual male ass,

810
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:38.880
Taiwan escorts, Taiwan companions gay sex or anal sex, and

811
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:43.880
Taiwan hardcore gay bondage sex. I'm gonna stop here, but

812
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:47.320
it goes on and on front. But it ended with

813
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:53.559
and used porsches. One of the sexes was free gay porn.

814
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.440
I'm like, Rob, you're you're a millionaire, and you can't.

815
00:44:57.639 --> 00:44:59.599
Just on the free stuff, just on the free stuff.

816
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.679
So Bill angrily tore out of the courtroom, his cheeks aflame.

817
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.760
He did not want to hear about this part of

818
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.440
his son's life. On August first, two months into the trial,

819
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.039
Nancy took the stand before a packed courtroom. The confident

820
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.119
blonde with the radiant smile was gone. In her place

821
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.360
was a thinner, fragile looking woman with long, dark hair

822
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.239
and glasses. The transformation was striking so much that some

823
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.440
observers accused her of deliberately trying to appear more Asian,

824
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:33.280
a calculated effort to win sympathy from the jury. Nancy

825
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:36.320
testified that Rob's behavior had changed after the birth of

826
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:40.000
their first daughter, Elaine. She said that Rob became disgusted

827
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:44.400
by her postpartum body and insisted on oral or anal

828
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.840
rather than vaginal sex. When she was pregnant with her

829
00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:51.559
son Rice, he struck her for the first time. His temper,

830
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:55.400
she explained, could be explosive. On one occasion, he punched

831
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:58.480
a wall so violently that he shattered a bone in

832
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.760
his hand, suffering what doctors call a boxer's fracture, and

833
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:05.280
it was not the first time that he had sustained

834
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:09.039
such an injury. He had previously broken the same knuckle

835
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.360
after lashing out at a hard object and anger.

836
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:14.840
I had a boxer's fracture once, Oh you did? From

837
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.000
what it was? Softball injury. I get hit with a

838
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.920
softball that it hit me right like in the knuckle

839
00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:21.400
where you would punch.

840
00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:24.159
Someone right, so I don't think it's an uncommon injury

841
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:30.719
and not necessarily sustained from punching your mate right. Nancy

842
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:33.119
sobbed and trembled on the stand as she talked about

843
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:36.480
the physical and sexual abuse it was constant, she claimed.

844
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.159
She explained that her Google searches for undetectable drugs that

845
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:43.639
cause heart attacks stemmed from her thoughts of taking her

846
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.599
own life, hoping to spare her children from the shame

847
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:49.960
of learning what she had done. The last night of

848
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:52.719
Rob's life, she claimed he was on a murderous tair

849
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.599
after she'd announced in marriage counseling that she wanted a divorce.

850
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:02.079
He was irate, drank excessively and assumed cocaine. He violently

851
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:05.119
sodomized her, and later he came after her with a

852
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:08.800
baseball bat. In defense, she grabbed the eight pound lead

853
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:12.960
statue of her grandmother's that she cherished to defend herself.

854
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.199
She said she didn't remember anything else after that. She

855
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:20.480
was on the witness stand for eight days. A few

856
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.039
more defense witnesses recalled seeing Nancy with bruises on occasion.

857
00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:27.840
One person remembers seeing her wears sunglasses inside.

858
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.760
I'm curious. Did either Connie or men testify to any

859
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.559
witnessing any violence between them or any.

860
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.280
It is a very good question, and no they did not. Interesting,

861
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:41.079
the apartment was thirty five hundred square feet, so that's

862
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:44.119
a pretty big apartment. But their room, I said, it

863
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:47.159
was like in this old closet, So I would think

864
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:49.199
that they would still be able to hear any of

865
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.559
the fighting that had gone on. Yeah, it sounds like

866
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:56.400
they really loved Rob and kind of tolerated Nancy.

867
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:56.880
Okay.

868
00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.519
On day seventy seven, the defense rests Nancy had dressed

869
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.519
entirely in black for the whole trial. As the case

870
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:07.719
was handed to the jury, the judge told them that

871
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.719
they had three options. They could find Nancy guilty of murder,

872
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:15.360
guilty of manslaughter due to provocation, or not guilty. He

873
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:18.239
reminded the jury of the force of the blows Rob

874
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.599
had suffered to his head and told them that they

875
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:24.920
must decide if that was warranted as self defense, five

876
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.800
strong blows that had crushed his skull and caused his

877
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.559
brain matter to ooze out of his head. The jury

878
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:33.880
took eight hours to come back with their decision.

879
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:36.719
What do you think, I think guilty?

880
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:39.800
They found Nancy guilty of murder. She was sentenced to

881
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:43.760
life in prison. Nancy's mother, Jean, wrote an email to

882
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:47.519
Joe McGinnis's author of Never Enough. In part it read,

883
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.639
this is indeed a story of domestic violence, power and greed.

884
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:55.480
Nan was over her head in many respects. She also

885
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.000
made unwise choices along the way, as we all do. She, however,

886
00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:03.280
fell through that thin gauze that supports most of us

887
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:09.199
above the pit of irretrievable consequences. After the verdict, of

888
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.039
Hong Kong newspaper tracked down Mike del Priori and published

889
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:16.599
his picture with this caption, This is Michael del Priory,

890
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:21.599
a muscular TV repairman and notorious ladies man. The forty

891
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.199
one year old man with piercing eyes is known as

892
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.559
a man with a colorful past. The trauma of Kissel's

893
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:30.119
arrest no longer seems to bother him, as he now

894
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:33.679
lives with a blonde woman named Tracy who drives a

895
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:37.639
red Ford GT sports car. She moved into mister del

896
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:41.599
Priori's tiny home in Hinsdale, Vermont in January.

897
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:44.599
On the Hong Kong Press really doing their job tracking

898
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.119
down everything.

899
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:49.960
Nancy Pine for Mike and wrote in love letters continuously

900
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:53.400
for months, but he'd moved on and didn't answer her letters.

901
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:57.559
They piled up at his house unopened. Nancy begged her

902
00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:00.840
attorneys to find out why he wasn't answering her letters.

903
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:05.559
Was Nancy also writing letters to hear children, you might wonder, sadly, no,

904
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:09.760
and she forbade her parents from talking to her about them.

905
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:12.679
It's really sad and really hard for me to understand.

906
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:15.039
I guess in some ways, maybe it's noble that you

907
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:16.440
know you're going to be in prison for the rest

908
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.599
of your life, and maybe your children are better off.

909
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:21.199
But I can't imagine just kind of giving up on

910
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:22.960
keeping in contact.

911
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.000
I hones say it probably was for the best.

912
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:28.039
Probably right. And a quick question for you, is life

913
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:30.360
in prison in Hong Kong? Does it mean life in prison?

914
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:32.920
I believe that there is a chance there is something

915
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.480
called a long term prison Sentence Review Board, and I

916
00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:40.440
believe they can intervene and shorten a sentence.

917
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:44.559
Okay. While Nancy was on trial for Rob's murder, the

918
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:48.880
FBI finally closed in on Andrew Kissel. He was taken

919
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:52.519
into custody without incident on July twenty eighth, two thousand

920
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:56.360
and five for falsifying mortgage documents up to fifty million

921
00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:00.239
dollars in three states and defrauding investors out of seven

922
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:01.079
million dollars.

923
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.119
So this literally happened in the midst of the murder trial.

924
00:51:06.039 --> 00:51:07.199
You imagine Bill Kissel.

925
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.880
Oh, yeah, he was probably beside himself for sure. Andrew

926
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.760
seemed surprised by the arrest. I can't imagine why he

927
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:16.400
was surprised.

928
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:19.960
Well, he's a narcissist, so he doesn't think that he's

929
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.519
ever going to have to pay for his crimes, right,

930
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:24.360
He never thought they were going to catch up too.

931
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:28.320
Yeah, that makes sense. At his arraignment, his attorney told

932
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.920
the judge he's a sick man. He assured the judge

933
00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:35.719
he would seek psychiatric help for his client. Andrew was

934
00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:40.599
later diagnosed with a number of conditions alcohol dependence, bipolar disorder,

935
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:47.800
cocaine abuse, impulse control problems PTSD, and antisocial personality disorder.

936
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:51.880
Andrew's attorney asked for leniency, noting that he was a

937
00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:56.039
first time offender and had been experiencing marital dispress and

938
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:59.880
recently lost his brother, causing his poor decision making.

939
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.800
I make you believe that his lawyer was trying to

940
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:05.920
get him off. He's a first time offender. He's to

941
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:08.760
frauded banks out of fifty million dollars, but it's his

942
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:10.119
first criminal offense.

943
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:14.519
I know it seems a little a little extreme. Haley

944
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.480
was present for the hearing, crying softly. Andrew paid one

945
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.760
million dollars in bail. He remained under house arrest with

946
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:25.559
an ankle monitor in Greenwich. When asked by the media

947
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:28.639
in Hong Kong about his son Andrew during Nancy's trial,

948
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:31.719
Bill Kissel said he had seen it coming for years.

949
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:35.320
He and Andrew had been estranged, and when Andrew got

950
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.400
into trouble, he forbade anyone from contacting his father for help.

951
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.320
Rob's own investment in his brother's business ventures lowered his

952
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.239
estates worth from eighteen million dollars to fifteen point five

953
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:52.679
million dollars. The Kissel family was in tatters after Nancy's

954
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:56.480
conviction and Andrew's arrest. Bill co signed Jane's pursuit of

955
00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:01.519
custody of Elaine. June and Rice and Andrew were furious.

956
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.840
That seems like the right decision, though absolutely Nancy wrote

957
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.719
to the judge in support of Andrew and Hailey gaining

958
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.519
custody from the Thai Lamb Prison Center. I have been

959
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:17.199
overwhelmed by Hailey's unconditional love, support and her exceptional skills

960
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:19.960
as a devoted mother. The fact of the matter is

961
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.599
my children are not in harm's way emotionally or physically

962
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:28.920
right now. Children understand love, they don't understand change. Loving

963
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:32.079
families don't turn on each other, they support one another.

964
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:36.440
These might be the only kind words that Nancy ever

965
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:40.159
spoke about Hailey. They had never been close, but even

966
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:43.519
Ira thought Elaine, June, and Rice should stay with Hailey.

967
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.880
Why do you think Nancy and her dad both were

968
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:51.639
supporting Haley and Andrew in this? I mean, from everything

969
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:53.960
you've said, it doesn't sound like the best situation for

970
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:54.280
the time.

971
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:57.039
I don't know if Ira knew about all of the

972
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:59.559
trouble that Andrew was in, that might have been part

973
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.280
of it. But also the kids need stability, that's true. Yeah,

974
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:03.920
And at this point they had been with Haley and

975
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.679
Andrew for years, and they were being raised with her

976
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:10.320
two cousins, and you know, send them. Jane lived in

977
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:11.800
Washington State, so.

978
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:13.039
I would have been a big move.

979
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:14.559
Yeah, yeah, a huge move.

980
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:18.480
Jane knew that the children were in a terrible situation

981
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:22.480
and aggressively pursued custody, even talking to a New York

982
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:26.400
Times reporter. Using the media to embarrass him was the

983
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:30.840
last straw for Andrew. He left her the following message, Jane,

984
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.719
it's your ex brother. You've managed to do what dad

985
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:36.480
has tried to do for seventy five years. Tear this

986
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:40.159
family apart. You've done that and we're going to bury you.

987
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:45.639
Jane Haley left a similarly outraged message. The betrayal I

988
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:47.920
have gotten from you is of a magnitude that I

989
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:53.159
never thought possible, But obviously I underestimated you. This family

990
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:54.239
is a mess.

991
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:54.960
They are.

992
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:58.920
Rob's will specified that if Nancy were unable to care

993
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:02.079
for their children, Stidy should go to his sister, Jane

994
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:06.000
Kissel Clayton. That was good enough for the judge. Jane

995
00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:09.719
and her husband, Richard one custody. The children moved to

996
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:14.199
Mercer Island, Washington, with Jane, her husband and their two children.

997
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:17.199
It looks like a beautiful, beautiful place where they live,

998
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:21.440
like an island, and just stunning pictures that I saw.

999
00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:25.719
Andrew was indicted in New York on additional charges of

1000
00:55:26.119 --> 00:55:31.000
grand larceny, forgery, and falsifying business records from the earlier

1001
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:34.239
co op scandal. He faced twenty five years in prison.

1002
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:40.119
Haley and Andrew continued to live together unharmoniously after they

1003
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:43.920
were evicted for not paying rend. Hailey's father, Dervish Wolf,

1004
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:48.280
purchased a two million dollar house for her and their

1005
00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:51.639
two daughters, eight and six. On Saturday, April first, two

1006
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:54.599
thousand and six, Haley moved out of the house, leaving

1007
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:56.559
Andrew with just a bed and a few pieces of

1008
00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:00.719
random furniture. While the movers were there, Haley and Andrew

1009
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:04.800
had a huge argument, allegedly about some cash Andrew had

1010
00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:09.559
stove somewhere in the house. Carlos Chahil, Andrew's driver, witnessed

1011
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.880
the fight, as did the movers. After Haley left, she

1012
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:16.480
called Bill and cautioned him that Andrew wasn't doing well

1013
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:20.320
and might be suicidal. Bill called Andrew, but he refused

1014
00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:24.519
the call. The following Monday, Andrew was set to surrender himself.

1015
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:26.960
He'd taken a plea deal and would likely be headed

1016
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:29.559
to prison for at least ten years. In May, he

1017
00:56:29.599 --> 00:56:33.280
would be sentence again for the grand larceny charge from

1018
00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:36.400
the co op board, adding maybe another ten to fifteen

1019
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:39.559
years to his sentence. When the movers returned on Monday

1020
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:41.719
to pick up the remaining items, no one answered the

1021
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.559
front door. It was unlocked, so they let themselves in

1022
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.039
and set to work. As they packed up the remaining

1023
00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:49.360
items in the house, they checked the basement, where they

1024
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:53.800
found Andrew forty six, lying dead in a poll of blood,

1025
00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:56.840
his hands and feet bound with zip ties, his T

1026
00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:00.480
shirt pulled over his head. He was stabbed multi times

1027
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:03.239
in the back. There was cocaine in his system.

1028
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.440
Okay, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit shocked

1029
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.800
at the moment. I was kind of expecting that he

1030
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:14.079
may have died by suicide, but this sounds like it

1031
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:15.360
was definitely he was stabbed in.

1032
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.639
The back and his arms and legs were zip tied,

1033
00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:19.760
so he did not take his own life.

1034
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:20.519
Oh my goodness.

1035
00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.199
Okay, it's very Shakespearean, isn't it.

1036
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:24.679
I was just going to say, it's like a Greek

1037
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:26.559
tragedy or something along those lines.

1038
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:29.599
Andrew had a lot of enemies. He'd wronged a lot

1039
00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:32.280
of people, but none more so than his own wife.

1040
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:36.840
She did not cooperate with the murder investigation. Police wouldn't

1041
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:40.960
confirm or deny whether she was a suspect. Bill thought

1042
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:45.000
Haley or her father were involved. Haley and Andrew's other

1043
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:48.800
friends lawyered up quickly. No one was talking. It always

1044
00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:50.840
happens in these cases when there's a lot of wealth.

1045
00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:53.639
Oh yeah, people just people.

1046
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:55.280
They have nothing to do with it. They're like, we're

1047
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:59.360
not talking, right. Not. Everyone believed that Andrew's murder was

1048
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:03.480
a revenge. Some speculated that he may have orchestrated his

1049
00:58:03.559 --> 00:58:06.559
own death, hiring a hitman in a rare moment of

1050
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:09.920
selflessness to take himself out so that his wife and

1051
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:14.000
children could collect on his fifteen million dollar life insurance policy,

1052
00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:17.920
money that might finally provide them with some stability after

1053
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:21.719
years of chaos. The time of his death, Andrew had

1054
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:24.480
assets of six hundred and twenty four thousand dollars, but

1055
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:29.360
owed his creditors more than thirty million dollars. I'm not

1056
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:33.840
sure how his life insurance policy worked then. I don't

1057
00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:37.719
think that creditors can go after the life insurance money

1058
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:41.000
because that money was Haley's, even though they were I'm

1059
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:45.119
not exactly sure. It's kind of confusing. Haley had gone

1060
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:48.000
back to work as a stock analyst. In their divorce,

1061
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:52.800
Andrew requested alimony. Just up the road from their rented house,

1062
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:55.599
the Kissels were building their dream house, a ten thousand

1063
00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:01.199
square foot Adirondack style home that now sat abandoned. Andrew

1064
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:03.639
was laid to rest in the family plot, next to

1065
00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:07.760
his brother. Only seventeen people attended the service. Haley was

1066
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:11.840
asked not to come at the funeral. Bill confided to

1067
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:15.599
the rabbi, once he grew up, he turned bad. There's

1068
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.880
nothing good to say about him as a man. Wow.

1069
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:21.360
In less than three years, both of Bill Kissel's sons

1070
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:24.519
had been slain, and five young children were left without

1071
00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:28.840
their fathers. Rob's gravestone read we love and miss you

1072
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:32.639
so very much. You have touched so many lives, your

1073
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:36.440
beautiful children, your mother and father, your sister and brother,

1074
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:41.599
all your loved ones, and many friends. Andrew's gravestones simply

1075
00:59:41.639 --> 00:59:43.119
read we all love you.

1076
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.480
That's quite a contrast between the two gravestones.

1077
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:48.920
Yeah, there was no shortage of people who wanted to

1078
00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:53.920
see Andrew dead, but Carlusterhillo, Andrew's longtime driver and personal assistant,

1079
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:56.800
was the last person to see him alive. He said

1080
00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:59.840
he'd locked the door when he left. Police found no

1081
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:03.199
sign of forest Entry. Whoever killed Andrew either had a

1082
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:07.199
key or was someone he was expecting. When police searched

1083
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:10.639
Andrew in Haley's bedroom closet, they found an access panel

1084
01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:13.960
with a broken lock. Behind the access panel was a

1085
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:17.119
crawl space that was empty. The money was gone.

1086
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:20.239
Wait, he kept his money in the crawl space.

1087
01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.719
I'm not really sure, but there was allegedly money somewhere

1088
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:26.519
in the house and that seemed like a likely place

1089
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:30.000
and it was gone, so it seemed like someone had

1090
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:30.679
taken the money.

1091
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:33.079
I'm watching Breaking Bad right now, and he had his

1092
01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:35.000
money in the crawl space, So I'm just I can

1093
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:36.559
picture that completely. Okay.

1094
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:41.440
So Carlos failed a polygraph examination. Police accused him of

1095
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:45.559
lying to them about several key points, but Trhiello argued

1096
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:47.480
that he'd lied to cover up his part in the

1097
01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:52.239
money laundering operation and that's what set off the polygraph. Later,

1098
01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:57.239
Carlos and his cousin, Leonard TRAHILLO twenty four, were both arrested,

1099
01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:01.280
but there was no direct physical evidence tying Carlos or

1100
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:05.719
Leonard to the crime scene. Leonard pleaded guilty to manslaughter

1101
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:09.239
and conspiracy to commit murder in two thousand and nine.

1102
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:13.480
In twenty eleven, he testified against Carlos at his trial.

1103
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:17.559
Leonard claimed that Carlos paid him eleven thousand dollars in

1104
01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:20.360
cash and gave him a laptop for his part in

1105
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.599
the murder. He claimed he had backed out of the plan,

1106
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:27.480
but by never informing Andrew or a law enforcement he

1107
01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:32.119
was culpable. For his testimony. Prosecutors dropped the capital murder

1108
01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:37.840
charge against him. Much of the prosecution's case against Carlos

1109
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:42.320
relied on Leonard's testimony. The jury didn't find him credible.

1110
01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:46.559
Carlos Trhillo was acquitted of the murder charge, but the

1111
01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:50.280
jury was hung on the attempted murder charge. After deliberating

1112
01:01:50.599 --> 01:01:55.559
for three days, Carlos pleaded guilty to attempted murder. He

1113
01:01:55.639 --> 01:01:59.159
was sentenced to six years and I think the time

1114
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:02.880
has already elapsed, but upon the completion of his prison sentence,

1115
01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:07.920
he was to be deported. He maintains his innocence. A

1116
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:11.440
Leonard was sentenced to twenty years in prison. Wow, So

1117
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:15.239
Franklin Trahillo, another cousin, wore a wire during the investigation

1118
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.199
for police. They tried to get Leonard to discuss his

1119
01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:22.480
plan with Carlos, but they never managed to record anything incriminating.

1120
01:02:23.119 --> 01:02:27.280
Greenwich police later sponsored Franklin Trihillo for a visa to

1121
01:02:27.320 --> 01:02:31.159
stay in the country, so Nancy Kissel's first appeal was

1122
01:02:31.199 --> 01:02:34.119
denied in two thousand and eight, but in February twenty ten,

1123
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:38.760
Hong Kong's highest court overturned Nancy's conviction based on prejudicial

1124
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:42.679
evidence presented by the prosecution. What is taking the way

1125
01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:45.679
for We're going to be here till midnight, making the

1126
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:49.039
way for a new trial. Nancy was not given bail

1127
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:53.000
this time. March twenty eleven, at her second trial, she

1128
01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:56.840
appeared in court in a wheelchair. A jury once again

1129
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:01.840
found Nancy guilty of murder. She remained incarcerated in Hong Kong,

1130
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:07.039
serving her life sentence. I mentioned the next thing just

1131
01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:10.440
because it just shows how corrupt these this whole all

1132
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:14.960
these people are in this family. In twenty fourteen, Haley's father,

1133
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:18.480
seventy nine year old Darish Wolf, president and board chairman

1134
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:22.519
of Lewis Burger Group Incorporated, pleaded guilty to defrauding USAID

1135
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:26.199
by charging overhead and other indirect costs at falsely inflated

1136
01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:30.360
rates from nineteen ninety through July two thousand and nine.

1137
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.639
He admitted that he enriched himself and his company with

1138
01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:38.840
money intended for important reconstruction projects in Afghanistan and Iraq.

1139
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:40.519
God, this family, I know.

1140
01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:43.119
I think you pointed out that I said his name

1141
01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:47.119
wrong earlier. I said Dervish maybe, and it's Dearish Yeish, Okay, yeah,

1142
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:50.719
So rest in peace, Andrew and Robert Kissel, brothers whose

1143
01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.559
lives were marked by wealth, ambition, and family complexities. Both

1144
01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:57.639
of their lives ended tragically and much too soon, leaving

1145
01:03:57.639 --> 01:04:02.000
behind children who love them. Rest in peace. I do

1146
01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:04.360
want to give credit to my main source for this episode.

1147
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:07.039
It was a book called Never Enough by Joe McGinnis.

1148
01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:11.079
Joe wrote Fatal Vision and several other true crime books.

1149
01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:15.039
I really enjoyed this book. This is the third book

1150
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:19.079
of his that I've read. It did end before Andrew's death.

1151
01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:22.199
There is a movie based on this story called The

1152
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:28.000
Two Mister Kissels. John Stamos plays Andrew Kissel, which, if

1153
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:32.360
you've seen pictures of Andrew Kissel, is the greatest honor

1154
01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:32.960
of his life.

1155
01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:34.559
Really, I mean, it's.

1156
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:36.880
Not like I don't know. I'm just being mean. I

1157
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.840
think Andrew was just a shady guy didn't deserve his fate.

1158
01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:44.280
But yeah, the other I don't know who else is

1159
01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:46.280
in the movie. John Stamos was the only person that

1160
01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:49.840
I recognized. I watched the movie. It's it's kind of

1161
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:53.360
a cheeky movie. I enjoyed it. I recommend it. It

1162
01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:54.599
doesn't go super deep.

1163
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:58.440
Yeah, I'm surprised there aren't any you know, big time

1164
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:01.480
movies like based on this story, even if it's not

1165
01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:04.320
like a direct version of the story. This just seems

1166
01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:06.920
like such a like a Greek tragedy or like you said,

1167
01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:11.360
a Shakespeare and drama. Just seems like so such a wild.

1168
01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:14.760
Story it is. I found the movie on Internet archive

1169
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:18.480
and we will link it in the show notes. You

1170
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:21.599
came home from our local library about a month ago,

1171
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:23.599
and you had the book in your hand and I

1172
01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:25.679
and you took it from it. I ripped it out

1173
01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:27.400
of your hands, and I was like, oh, I own

1174
01:05:27.559 --> 01:05:31.119
all Joe McGinnis stories. So really, I think this was

1175
01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:34.440
a really interesting case. I think that it's probably better

1176
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:37.079
known than I am aware that it, Like I had

1177
01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:39.000
never heard of it. Yeah, but I think it is

1178
01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:43.079
a pretty popular true crime case. I can imagine it's

1179
01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:45.760
crazy that both of the Kissel brothers were found dead

1180
01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:46.519
in a basement.

1181
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.159
That is a bit of a coincidence.

1182
01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:52.599
Yeah, were you surprised that Mike del Priori was not

1183
01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:54.000
involved in Rob's murder?

1184
01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:56.800
Well, I mean he was on the other side of

1185
01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:59.960
the world, so I guess I could imagine that maybe

1186
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:03.039
she had talked to him about it, but it doesn't

1187
01:06:03.079 --> 01:06:06.800
sound like he was, and he was obviously he wasn't.

1188
01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:10.400
When I knew that Rob was going to be murdered,

1189
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:12.519
I initially thought, well, I bet Mike was in the

1190
01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.840
country and Mike was going to help dispose of the

1191
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:18.440
body or something. But no, there really was was not

1192
01:06:18.519 --> 01:06:21.360
a plan there. Nancy was a pretty bad criminal.

1193
01:06:21.519 --> 01:06:23.519
Wait, so Mike was in Hong Kong at the time.

1194
01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:26.280
No, he wasn't. But I thought that, oh, he's probably

1195
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:26.920
gonna you know.

1196
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:29.119
Yeah, I mean, based on you know, all the stories

1197
01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:32.679
that we've done it. He definitely fits that portrait of

1198
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:35.239
someone who might have helped her with something like that.

1199
01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.199
Yeah, Heley and Andrew wanting custody of the kids. Do

1200
01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:41.599
you think that was solely because of the money that

1201
01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:42.239
came with them.

1202
01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:44.400
Well, I mean, it sure sounds like it, and it

1203
01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:46.199
makes that makes me so angry. I mean I said

1204
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:48.639
it earlier, but it's just I hate it when the

1205
01:06:48.719 --> 01:06:50.840
kids are used as like a pawn. You know, the

1206
01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:54.119
kids come with come with the dollar signs attached to them,

1207
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:57.280
and so that makes you know, people try to get

1208
01:06:57.320 --> 01:06:59.800
custody of them, and it just seems it seems like it.

1209
01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:02.039
But who To be fair, I don't think Hailey was

1210
01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:05.559
a bad person. I think she was overwhelmed by her circumstances,

1211
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:08.480
and I think she cared about the kids. Yeah exactly.

1212
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.639
Do you think Andrew being stabbed in the back was

1213
01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:13.039
significant of anything?

1214
01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:16.920
I mean maybe I guess I murdered him.

1215
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:18.440
I was trying to send a message.

1216
01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:20.679
Yeah, it could be. I guess if you.

1217
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:23.719
Were Ira, would you spend your life savings on Nancy's

1218
01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:24.480
legal defense?

1219
01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:27.480
Boy, that's a good question. It's one I hope I

1220
01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:29.800
never have to a choice. I hope I never have to.

1221
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:31.679
I don't think you're going to have to worry about hopefully.

1222
01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:33.960
I think about that in a lot of these all

1223
01:07:34.039 --> 01:07:34.679
the time too.

1224
01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:38.840
Families often like go in debt, spend their life savings

1225
01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:42.280
on their child their brother or whatever.

1226
01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:46.280
It seemed pretty clear that Ira knew that Nancy was guilty.

1227
01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:49.440
Remember the scene when the police wanted the key to

1228
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:51.559
the storage you in and she said, oh, I can't

1229
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:56.039
find it, and Ira said, no, give them the key now, Nancy. Yeah,

1230
01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:58.440
I don't know if I would be able to spend

1231
01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:01.239
her life savings on a child that I thought was guilty.

1232
01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:03.960
I want them to be defended.

1233
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:06.119
But yeah, that is a tough one.

1234
01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:08.960
That's a tricky question. Hopefully we will never we will

1235
01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:12.960
never be there. Do you think that Andrew's murder was solved? Like,

1236
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:16.399
remember that I didn't elaborate on this enough. Probably, but

1237
01:08:16.520 --> 01:08:20.439
Carlos and Andrew went way back, like he had been

1238
01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:23.239
with Andrew for a long time. He said he was

1239
01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.319
like a father to him, even though I think they

1240
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:28.079
were kind of close in age, but they were very close. Yeah,

1241
01:08:28.439 --> 01:08:31.319
So I'm not sure if I see a motive for Carlos.

1242
01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.760
Yeah, I don't really see a motive either. It's odd

1243
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:38.359
that his cousin sort of turned on him. I mean,

1244
01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:40.079
why would your cousin turn on you?

1245
01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:40.640
Deal?

1246
01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:42.520
Yeah, if there wasn't something, if.

1247
01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:45.359
The prosecutors like there's enough evidence against you, you're gonna

1248
01:08:45.439 --> 01:08:47.720
well there. I think there was a death sentence on

1249
01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:52.520
the table too, so that might be enough out. I guess,

1250
01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:55.600
I am not sure. I would not be shocked if

1251
01:08:56.520 --> 01:09:01.319
Darish Wolf was somehow involved in there. Really, Yeah, how

1252
01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:03.760
surreal do you think it is to be Nancy to

1253
01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:07.039
be in jail for the rest of your life, possibly

1254
01:09:07.399 --> 01:09:10.399
in Hong Kong, with no family there.

1255
01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:11.920
I can't even imagine.

1256
01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:13.520
I mean, it's such a weird situation.

1257
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:15.520
I think even just you know, in part one when

1258
01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:18.359
you described her being in Hong Kong and the family

1259
01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:20.880
being there and you know, Rob is working all the time,

1260
01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:24.479
I felt even then like she must feel really isolated

1261
01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:27.920
and out of her element. But now like being in

1262
01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:29.960
a Hong Kong prison for the rest of your life.

1263
01:09:30.279 --> 01:09:32.800
Oh man, that's yeah, that's really.

1264
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:34.960
I assume that she has learned the language. I think

1265
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:37.319
at the time of her trial she had not learned

1266
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.560
the language. But yeah, I don't think that they're speaking

1267
01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:44.640
English to her. And sure, can we talk again about

1268
01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:47.119
how Nancy is the worst criminal ever?

1269
01:09:48.039 --> 01:09:48.479
Yeah?

1270
01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:51.880
Like, what was her game plan? Obviously she had planned

1271
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:55.680
this because she had gone to get drugs for different doctors, and.

1272
01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:58.520
Yeah, she did not think it through at all though apparently,

1273
01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:01.840
I mean maybe I don't know. I was gonna say,

1274
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:04.520
maybe she just thought she could get off and say

1275
01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:07.039
that he was abusive toward her. But if she really

1276
01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:09.479
wanted to take that approach, she would have reported it

1277
01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:12.199
right away and not wrapped, you know, left his body

1278
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:14.680
there for days and wrapped him up in a rug.

1279
01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:17.800
So I yeah, I don't know, she just wasn't thinking.

1280
01:10:18.279 --> 01:10:21.800
It's a little funny to me too, that she had

1281
01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:26.039
these four men take the rolled up rug to the

1282
01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:31.159
storage in it, like obviously they knew that there was

1283
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:34.000
something in the rug, Yeah that smelled. I don't know,

1284
01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:37.199
just a very strange situation, is very Do you think

1285
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:39.000
that it was self defense?

1286
01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:43.199
Well, I don't. I don't know, but you didn't really

1287
01:10:43.600 --> 01:10:47.239
share any There was no seems like there was no

1288
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:49.680
credible evidence that he was abusive.

1289
01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:53.720
But as far as I know, there was no, you know,

1290
01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:56.439
evidence other I mean the fact that some of her

1291
01:10:56.439 --> 01:10:58.279
friends did come forward and say, well, I did see

1292
01:10:58.359 --> 01:11:01.560
some bruises, and you know, she did wear sunglasses and

1293
01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:03.039
inside that one time.

1294
01:11:03.199 --> 01:11:05.119
But the fact that she drugged him, the fact that

1295
01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:08.479
she hit him so many times when only one blow

1296
01:11:08.520 --> 01:11:11.560
would have done it. It just seems like it was

1297
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:14.119
kind of overkill and planned as well.

1298
01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:18.960
Yeah, but you know my senses, Rob was a pretty

1299
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:22.199
decent man and that Nancy just really wanted out of

1300
01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:22.680
the marriage.

1301
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:25.279
Yeah, he might have been neglectful in that he you know,

1302
01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:28.840
focused solely on his work and maybe he didn't pay

1303
01:11:29.039 --> 01:11:29.880
much attention to her.

1304
01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:34.159
Yeah. But yeah, how did these brothers turn out so differently?

1305
01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:38.119
I don't know, that's really it is a really wild story.

1306
01:11:38.159 --> 01:11:41.800
I mean, they were both very ambitious and both had

1307
01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:45.399
big goals, but they had very different kind of approaches

1308
01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:47.119
to how they were going to go after those things.

1309
01:11:47.159 --> 01:11:51.079
The deficits that Andrew had and his personality he had

1310
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:55.800
to you know, use corruption to you know, gain the

1311
01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:58.479
same amount of stature that his brother had.

1312
01:11:58.640 --> 01:12:00.000
Yeah.

1313
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:03.520
Should white collar criminals serve time and minimum security prison?

1314
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:04.880
How do you feel about that?

1315
01:12:05.560 --> 01:12:06.600
It irritates me.

1316
01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:09.319
They hate white collar criminals, I think, I know, they

1317
01:12:09.319 --> 01:12:10.800
should not get special treatment.

1318
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:15.199
Yeah, it really irritates me that if you're a wealthy person,

1319
01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.640
there is definitely a different system of justice for you,

1320
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:20.479
and it bothers me.

1321
01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:22.920
That's why I think the tr heos might have been

1322
01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:26.199
framed a little bit and you know, like the Wolf

1323
01:12:26.199 --> 01:12:29.560
family possibly had something to do with it. Yeah, and

1324
01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:32.800
you know made just the your heos.

1325
01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:35.199
To the time a convenient target. Yeah.

1326
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:38.159
White collar crime can cause serious damage, even if it

1327
01:12:38.199 --> 01:12:41.600
doesn't leave physical scars. Lives are ruined, savings vanish, and

1328
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:45.600
entire communities can be affected. Yet those responsible often faced

1329
01:12:45.640 --> 01:12:49.439
lighter consequences, using money, influence or top tier lawyers to

1330
01:12:49.479 --> 01:12:54.319
negotiate reduced sentences or plea deals, and sometimes even end

1331
01:12:54.399 --> 01:12:57.600
up in more comfortable or favorable prison conditions. It's a

1332
01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:01.239
reminder that in the justice system, privilege can sometimes weigh

1333
01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:02.840
heavier than the crime itself.

1334
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:07.119
Yeah. I think that's very well.

1335
01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:08.079
Tiye it up, But it does bother me because I

1336
01:13:08.119 --> 01:13:11.199
think financial crimes are still crimes.

1337
01:13:11.239 --> 01:13:13.000
Yeah. Well, I think that's a good point you made

1338
01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:15.800
that the I think sometimes the impact of those crimes

1339
01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:19.039
it's not as obvious or as a parent, but people

1340
01:13:19.119 --> 01:13:22.359
are harmed greatly by white collar crime.

1341
01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:33.439
Fridays in our house are great British bakeoff days. We've

1342
01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:35.920
been watching the new season and enjoying it so far.

1343
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:37.159
Are you enjoying it so far?

1344
01:13:37.319 --> 01:13:39.239
I really am, Although I think I shared with you

1345
01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:41.520
the other day that I just heard that Preue is

1346
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:42.840
leaving the show after this.

1347
01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:44.479
Season makes me really sad.

1348
01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:45.279
Love prove.

1349
01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:47.760
So yeah, well we're going to do a little just

1350
01:13:47.800 --> 01:13:50.520
a little tribute to Great British Bakeoff and.

1351
01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:52.760
So you baked me a bunch of stuff that you're

1352
01:13:52.800 --> 01:13:53.600
going to be No.

1353
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:57.039
I actually came across this cute segment on YouTube today.

1354
01:13:57.079 --> 01:13:59.920
We'll post it in our show notes. It's Paul and Prue.

1355
01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:03.039
They did the American Bakeoff show, which I think we

1356
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:05.319
watched like an episode and we were like last just

1357
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:08.159
wasn't the same. But they were doing some press in

1358
01:14:08.199 --> 01:14:12.960
the United States, so they were Their goal was to

1359
01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:16.119
determine the best snacks in the United States and they

1360
01:14:16.119 --> 01:14:18.960
were given like different snacks, you know, to try, and

1361
01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:21.039
they had to pick you know, A or B. I

1362
01:14:21.119 --> 01:14:23.119
think I saw this, Oh did you really.

1363
01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:27.560
A long time ago? Yes, but fortunately I don't remember it.

1364
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:31.680
Well, we'll see. So I'm going to give you the

1365
01:14:31.720 --> 01:14:34.399
options of what they were given and you're going to

1366
01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:38.239
have to guess which American snack. These are American snacks

1367
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:40.680
that they picked. But before we do that, I want

1368
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:43.039
to ask you really quick if an alien came to

1369
01:14:43.119 --> 01:14:49.479
you and said, Hey, American guy, what is your favorite?

1370
01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:51.680
What is the best snack food that you can give me?

1371
01:14:52.000 --> 01:14:53.319
You can give them three things.

1372
01:14:53.319 --> 01:14:56.159
What would you pick the best or the most prototypically

1373
01:14:56.199 --> 01:14:57.560
American snack food?

1374
01:14:57.680 --> 01:15:00.880
I guess you're preferred snack foods. Can pick two or three.

1375
01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:05.560
I don't know. Twinkies and lace potato.

1376
01:15:05.239 --> 01:15:09.600
Chips that those are really interesting choices. I would I

1377
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:13.119
would do Cheetos and uh, I don't know. I would

1378
01:15:13.159 --> 01:15:16.239
maybe do Snickers, but that's because I know what we're

1379
01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:19.920
about to talk about, all right. The first round, they

1380
01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:24.640
were given twinkies and ho hose. Okay, which did they prefer? So?

1381
01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:27.159
I actually do seem to remember that they kind of

1382
01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:29.279
liked the twinkies. I remember that Prue was like, oh

1383
01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:31.079
these are it's a nice sponge on here.

1384
01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:32.359
Oh you did see this.

1385
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:34.199
That's the only one I remember, though, So I think

1386
01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:35.359
they liked the twinkies better.

1387
01:15:35.479 --> 01:15:37.960
Yeah, and Prue did. She's like, oh it's light lemone.

1388
01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:41.159
She hated the cream because you know, she used to

1389
01:15:41.319 --> 01:15:43.800
crep path and it's just not the same. But yeah,

1390
01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:46.880
you're right, they choose. They chose twinkies. They said the

1391
01:15:46.880 --> 01:15:53.319
ho hose were not too brilliant Round two Reeses versus Snickers.

1392
01:15:53.680 --> 01:15:55.640
Well, I would hope they would say Reese's. But I

1393
01:15:55.680 --> 01:15:56.920
have a feeling this is.

1394
01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:58.560
Going to be a tough one on you. So Paul

1395
01:15:58.600 --> 01:16:02.359
said the chocolate in the American Snickers. He he was like,

1396
01:16:02.520 --> 01:16:04.800
I love Snickers. Snickers are great. I'm going to pick

1397
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:07.359
the Snickers. But then he said, the chocolate here is

1398
01:16:07.399 --> 01:16:09.399
not the same, which I don't know if I knew

1399
01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:13.640
that a lot of Yeah, so they and Prude does

1400
01:16:13.680 --> 01:16:16.720
not like peanut butter, believe it or not. So they

1401
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:22.119
chose the Snickers Oreos versus Girl Scout thin Mint cookies.

1402
01:16:22.279 --> 01:16:24.760
Oh gosh, it's a false equivvent.

1403
01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:27.039
It is kind of a false equipment. But I'm going

1404
01:16:27.119 --> 01:16:29.479
to guess they went with the thin mints because they've

1405
01:16:29.479 --> 01:16:29.840
got that.

1406
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:32.720
Minute ycstually liked the thin mint but they chose the

1407
01:16:32.720 --> 01:16:39.359
Oreo Round four lays versus Ruffles lays. For sure, they

1408
01:16:39.520 --> 01:16:42.119
liked them both quite a bit, but preferred the lays,

1409
01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:45.760
calling them more like a British christ That make you

1410
01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:50.720
want a white bread sandwich with butter and potatoes.

1411
01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:52.680
That's an Irish thing. But yeah, that sounds good.

1412
01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:57.279
I would choose ruffles all day, every day. Round five

1413
01:16:58.079 --> 01:17:02.560
cheddar Jack cheese ites versus Cool Ranch Doritos, which makes

1414
01:17:02.600 --> 01:17:05.439
me mad because I love cheese its, but I don't

1415
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:08.880
like the cheddar Jack ones because there's a weird powder

1416
01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:10.520
on them. Which one do you think they chose?

1417
01:17:10.520 --> 01:17:12.279
I'm going to say they went with the cool Ranch.

1418
01:17:12.439 --> 01:17:16.199
They did. Yes. They said that the cheddar jag cheeses

1419
01:17:16.239 --> 01:17:20.279
taste like old socks, quite nasty. They really liked the Doritos.

1420
01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:23.119
They said they would be good with guacamole. Round six.

1421
01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:25.039
If you're seen in a store they have those like

1422
01:17:25.119 --> 01:17:32.079
five gallon buckets of cheeseballs, you there's always these huge

1423
01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:36.439
gross buckets. So cheeseballs versus flame and hot Cheetos.

1424
01:17:37.479 --> 01:17:39.399
Probably the flame and hot Cheetos.

1425
01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:42.560
I really don't like flame and hot Cheetos. They're gross.

1426
01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:45.039
But they went with the flame and hot Cheetos. They

1427
01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:47.680
said all they taste is heat. It's a little bit

1428
01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:50.600
like chili. But they quite liked them. All right, So

1429
01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:53.159
round two they're gonna be a couple of new things,

1430
01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:57.520
and then some repeats. Strawberry parp pop Tarts versus Snickers,

1431
01:17:57.560 --> 01:17:59.000
which again is kind of a false.

1432
01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:01.840
That's very very death like apples and oranges, and.

1433
01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.960
Like pop tters. To me, there is only one flavor

1434
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:08.600
of pop tarts and cinnamon, So I feel like strawberry

1435
01:18:08.600 --> 01:18:12.119
pop trts aren't brown sugar cinnamon ones are really good.

1436
01:18:12.359 --> 01:18:14.199
Yeah, I guess they would go with Snickers.

1437
01:18:14.199 --> 01:18:16.399
Then they went with the Snickers. They really hated the

1438
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:19.479
pop tarts for bolting. Who the hell eats this stuff?

1439
01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:21.920
If I was starving and hadn't eaten in six months,

1440
01:18:21.960 --> 01:18:22.840
I still wouldn't eat it.

1441
01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:23.840
Paulsa goodness.

1442
01:18:23.960 --> 01:18:27.000
So yeah, they went with the Snickers. So round eight

1443
01:18:27.479 --> 01:18:32.840
Twinkies versus Oreos Twinkies Oreos real. They quite liked the

1444
01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:34.880
Oreo actually, and it was the single I was going

1445
01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.640
to ask classic Oreo. Yeah, okay, I know this is

1446
01:18:37.640 --> 01:18:39.319
getting along, so we're going to try to wrap it

1447
01:18:39.359 --> 01:18:44.640
up quickly. Pizza combos versus lays so combos. The cheddar

1448
01:18:44.720 --> 01:18:47.119
cheese combos are kind of I don't I haven't eaten

1449
01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:48.600
them in a while because they aren't as good as

1450
01:18:48.600 --> 01:18:50.600
they used to be, but they used to be my

1451
01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:54.279
go to road food. Yeah, but the pizza ones, that's

1452
01:18:54.640 --> 01:18:57.239
that whatever, it's nasty, But what do you think they

1453
01:18:57.319 --> 01:19:02.399
chose between they seem to like Paul said about the

1454
01:19:02.399 --> 01:19:04.479
pizza combos, I don't think my dog would eat them.

1455
01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:07.720
I don't believe anyone ever eats a second one of those,

1456
01:19:07.840 --> 01:19:12.840
Through said. Round ten, Cool Ranch to Ritos versus Flame

1457
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:13.439
and Hot.

1458
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:15.079
Cheetos, Cool Ranch Doritos.

1459
01:19:15.399 --> 01:19:20.720
Yes, so we're almost done. Round three Oreo versus Snickers.

1460
01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:23.760
Oh boy, it's getting tough now. Yeah, I'm gonna go

1461
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:25.439
with Oreos. That's what I would choose.

1462
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:28.600
I would choose a Snicker, but they chose the Oreo.

1463
01:19:28.680 --> 01:19:31.000
Paul said that he would have picked the British Snickers,

1464
01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:35.039
but the Sniggers, but not the American one. All right,

1465
01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:38.760
almost done. Round twelve Lays versus Cool Ranch to Ritos.

1466
01:19:39.279 --> 01:19:41.800
I'll go with Lays again, Cool Ranch Toritos.

1467
01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:45.159
Wow, Lays are a very good crisp, but the doritos

1468
01:19:45.159 --> 01:19:48.720
are more interesting and have a denser flavor. All right,

1469
01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:51.359
final round. Do you know where we're at?

1470
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:55.439
We're at Oreos and cool Ranch to Ritas. I gotta

1471
01:19:55.479 --> 01:19:57.720
go with Oreos Cool.

1472
01:19:57.560 --> 01:19:59.960
Ranch to Ritos. Really, I was kind of shocked.

1473
01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:02.119
I am very here for you.

1474
01:20:02.199 --> 01:20:04.279
I didn't have all the snacks for you. I did

1475
01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:09.079
get you have some some some Doritos, putting up with

1476
01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:11.159
me and getting through this case.

1477
01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:14.880
Well the case was super interesting, so no, no snack

1478
01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:18.880
needed to thank me for that, but thanks, that's always appreciated.

1479
01:20:19.039 --> 01:20:22.000
And Cool Ranch trios are like a Christmas chip because

1480
01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.960
there's the spices are red and green, if you're noticed

1481
01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:25.199
that way.

1482
01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:27.319
I have never looked that closely at a cool Ranch

1483
01:20:27.359 --> 01:20:27.720
to rito.

1484
01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:31.199
Of all those snacks, you would, you would choose oreos,

1485
01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:32.119
you said, Well.

1486
01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:34.359
I don't know single stuff oreos. I'm not so sure

1487
01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:38.319
I like them, but I'm really spoiled by double stuff

1488
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:41.640
and even the mega stuff or whatever.

1489
01:20:41.479 --> 01:20:44.880
They're Yeah, yeah, well I think they are coffee people,

1490
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:47.399
and I think they talked a lot about dunking the oreos.

1491
01:20:48.600 --> 01:20:50.760
And I think you love a Lays chip.

1492
01:20:50.840 --> 01:20:52.039
I love a Lay's chip too.

1493
01:20:52.119 --> 01:20:54.439
Yeah, all right, we'll put a fork in us because

1494
01:20:54.479 --> 01:20:57.920
we are done. We are We are so grateful that

1495
01:20:57.920 --> 01:21:01.239
you're here. Every listen, follow, review, and share helps this

1496
01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:04.079
show keep going and reminds us of how lucky we

1497
01:21:04.119 --> 01:21:06.640
are to have such a thoughtful community. If you'd like

1498
01:21:06.680 --> 01:21:08.920
to reach out, we're on social media, or you can

1499
01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:12.640
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1500
01:21:12.640 --> 01:21:15.199
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1501
01:21:15.239 --> 01:21:18.319
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1502
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1503
01:21:23.159 --> 01:21:59.760
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1504
01:22:00.680 --> 01:22:14.079
The