April 13, 2026

Nicholas Alahverdian/Nicholas Rossi/Arthur Knight

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A man named Arthur Knight was admitted to a hospital in Glasgow, Scotland, suffering from COVID-19. But as investigators began to look closer, they believed Arthur Knight wasn’t who he claimed to be.

Authorities alleged he was actually Nicholas Alahverdian — a Rhode Island fugitive accused of fraud, sexual assault, and of faking his own death. What followed was an international legal battle, disputed identities, and a story filled with deception, reinvention, and a dramatic fight over extradition.

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Today's snack: Old World Bacon Gouda and Colameco's Uncured Chorizo (thanks Shannon!)

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing that

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we've learned it over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you?

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I am great? How are you?

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I have fabulous? Your voice sounds really good.

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Today.

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We just did art.

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We did some vocal warm.

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Leather, yellow leather. We realize we haven't really talked much today.

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It's Monday, April sixth, at about two o'clock. You are

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off for the day, the day after Easter. Yeah, we

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are on our fourth falls spring here in Michigan. But

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I think it's going to be here to stay pretty soon.

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Oh So, I want to start with a segment that

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I'm going to call the marriage minute, but it'll probably

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be more like thirty seconds. But do you have any

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kudos or grievances that you want to go over with me?

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I don't really have a whole lot. I don't have

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any grievances. I think you're great. I think you're doing okay.

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I wasn't fishing for a compliment.

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No, I know, but I have no I have no grievances.

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Oh okay, I actually wanted to give you a compliment. Okay,

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I complained the other day about the garage. Do you

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remember this the latter we have this huge ladder that

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you usually have up on some sort of pins in

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the garage, and the pins became loose in the garage.

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The ladder has been on the floor of the garage

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for six.

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Months, right in its front of where you park your

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right and.

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I never know if I'm going to hit the ladder

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or not. So I complained about I didn't. I just

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mentioned it once and you went right out fixed it

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and really changed my life. So I just wanted to

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say thank you for that. And also I wanted to

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thank you for all the work that you did on

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the NCAA tournament. I think that was kind of a

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lot of work, and it was a lot of it was.

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A labor of love. It was it was a lot

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of and then I thought, it will just be great

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to have like a group of people, you know, doing

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the tournament together.

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And it was really fine, and I think our listeners

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enjoyed it too. We're so grateful to everyone that participated.

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I imagine that we're not going to be able to

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stop you from doing it next year. So if you

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didn't participate this year, I hope that you joined us

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next year.

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Honestly, I think next year we'll do We'll do the tournament,

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but I do think we should do a March Madness

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of snacks as well.

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Yeah, I would love to do that.

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We have like a bracket with different snacks and people

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can vote, so I think maybe we'll do both next year.

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Wow, you are in feeling ambitious.

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But we'll see how it goes.

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By the time this drops next Monday, this will be

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old news. But today is the finals.

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Yeah, Michigan will be the national champion by Monday when

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this drops. See how confident I'm feeling.

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Do you want to predict a score?

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Michigan killing it? They have been killing it. I'm going

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to say Michigan ninety three Yukon sixty seven. WHOA Okay,

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bold prediction.

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It's a very bold prediction.

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And we'll see.

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Well, we are both wearing our Michigan sweatshirts. And it

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was so funny you sent me this news article this

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morning about Michigan students. We're camping out at bars overnight,

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so they have a you know, yeah, well, I hope

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it goes as planned.

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I hope so too.

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Well are you hungry? I am, You're always hungry.

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Of course.

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Our sweet listener, Shannon from Ohio sent us a really

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nice gift, a huge box full of charcouterie. She loves charcuterie.

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I love chart creudery.

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You love.

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I feel like I'm saying it funny. She sent us

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a ton of stuff. She sent us like this board

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of Cleveland, which we've been meaning to visit. The BUCkies

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is opening, Uh, it's actually opening today. Today is the

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grand opening of the BUCkies in Ohio. So we have

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been talking about going.

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For a reason to go on a road trip.

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Right, it's a great reason. So yeah, April sixth is

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the day it's opening, which I imagine it's going to

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be crazy. But back to Shannon Snack. She sent us

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this cute cutting board, a dish towel, this deck of

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cards to put yeah, and olives and mustard and crackers

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and cheese and chariso and guys. It's so much. And

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Shannon's had us really great popcorn about a year ago.

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Do you remember that?

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I do.

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Yeah, it was all really good stuff. Well, would you

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like to try a little bit of Charcooterie.

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I would love to.

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Did you enjoy that cheese and cheriso and these cute

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little heart shaped crackers?

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I did. It was so good. The cheese is like

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bacon gouda, and the chiso was delicious, and that we

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only tried like a small percentage of what Shannon was

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so nice.

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Shannon mentioned that the cheese is like you know they have,

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it's cheese that you can have at room temperature, and

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I actually really love processed cheese. I think it's really good.

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So thank you so much, Shannon. That was such a

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lovely gift. Are you ready to hear the crazy story

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of Nicholas Rossy, Nick Elavidian Arthur Knight.

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I'm not sure if I'm ready, but I'm going to

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get ready.

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He had sixteen aliases over the course of his life.

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Oh my, pretty interesting story. Before we begin, though, I

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want to give a content warning. This episode includes discussion

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of sexual assault. While not explicit, we know this content

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may be difficult for some listeners, so please listen with care.

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In December twenty twenty one, a man named Arthur Knight

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was hospitalized at Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow, Scotland

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after developing a severe case of COVID nineteen. He spent

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several weeks in the hospital, placed in a medically induced

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coma and on a ventilator to help him breathe. Like

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in the United States, patients in the COVID ward weren't

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allowed visitors. Arthur's wife, Miranda, was devastated to be separated

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from her husband. Nurses placed a phone next to Arthur's

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ear so she could speak to him each day. Once

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he emerged from the coma, Miranda was allowed to visit

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as he slowly regained his strength, but he would never

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be the same. He was weak, his voice raspy. He

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required constant oxygen and relied on a wheel chair. Then

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one day, Scottish police entered his room while Miranda sat

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at his bedside. They asked her to step outside so

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they could question Arthur, but she refused to leave her

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husband in his fragile condition. An officer stepped closer, his

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tone calm but unmistakably firm. Mister Knight, he said, we

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will leave. You're a fugitive from justice in the United States.

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Arthur stared back at him, his eyes wide with confusion

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and anger. The officer continued, your birth name is Nicholas Alaverdian.

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You've also used the name Nicholas Rossy, Sir, you are

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wanted in the state of Utah on two charges of

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felony rape. For a moment, the room fell silent. The

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man in the hospital bed shook his head. You've got

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the wrong person. I've never set foot in the United States,

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he insisted angrily. But investigators were already certain finger prints, photographs,

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distinctive tattoos, and his criminal record all pointed to the

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same conclusion. The man calling himself Arthur Knight was not

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who he claimed to be. In fact, authorities believed he

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was an American fugitive who had once convinced the world

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he died in twenty twenty.

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Very interesting. If you're on the run, if you're a

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fugitive from justice, you probably don't want to go into

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the hospital for anything.

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Yeah, good point. I think he was very, very sick

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at this point. Nicholas Edward Alaverdian was born in Providence,

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Rhode Island, on July eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, to Diana

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de Philippo and Jack Alaverdian, who were married in nineteen

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eighty four. Nicholas also had a younger brother and sister.

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Nick's childhood was marked by instability and conflict within the home.

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His parents' marriage ended in nineteen ninety due to irreconcilable

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differences and domestic violence. Jack had a lengthy rap sheet

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that included drug dealing, theft, writing fraudulent checks, obtaining money

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under false pretenses, domestic abuse, and violating restraining orders. The

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domestic abuse was so bad at times that Diana went

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into hiding with the children. After the divorce, Jack Alaverdian

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disappeared from his children's lives. When Nick was seven, He

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and his siblings were legally adopted by David Rossi. Nick's

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name was changed to Nicholas Rossi. Nick's new father, David Rossi,

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was an entertainer. His stage name was David Anthony. He

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was the number one Ingelbert A humperdink impersonator in the world.

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Wow. How many Engelbert humperdink impersonators are there in the

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world during that time?

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I don't know, but I've watched a lot of there's

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a lot of documentaries about this case, and David Rossi

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appears in all of them, and he seems like a

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very interesting miss.

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I'm going to have to watch a video.

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He met Diana at a nightclub where she worked as

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a cocktail waitress. David has done many interviews, and he

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has called Nick insolent, wicked, uncontrollable, abusive, and the devil's spawn.

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Nick had violent outbursts and constantly hit his mother and siblings.

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David told Dateline that on one particularly fraught morning, when

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he felt that he had lost control of his son,

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he picked Nick up, carried him out the door, and

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put him on the school bus wearing only his underwear.

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Nick was placed in residential treatment facilities several times during

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his childhood for behavioral issues, as his parents to struggle

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to manage his behavior. During a family vacation to Disney

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World in Florida when Nick was about twelve, David Rossi

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lost his temper after he saw Nick hitting his mother again.

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He lost control and violently beat Nick, kicking and punching

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him at least twelve times. His injuries were bad enough

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to require hospitalization. Authorities were called and Rossi was arrested

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on child abuse charges. He said that he wasn't proud

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of how he acted and has regretted it ever since,

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describing it as a moment of anger getting the better

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of him. When Nick's mother presented paper documenting her son's

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psychological issues, the judge dropped the charges against David, but

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soon after David walked out on Diana and the children.

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So in this story, like we've said, so, Nicholas already

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has two names in his birth name of Allaverdian and

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his adopted name of Nick Rossi. And so you hear

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a lot of people using different you know, those two

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different names mostly, and I wasn't sure how to refer

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to him, but I chose to use Elaverdian for most

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of the case because that's his birth name.

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Got it.

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In the aftermath, Nicholas and his siblings were removed from

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the home and became wards of the state. He was

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placed into the custody of Rhode Island's Department of Children,

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Youth and Families, so he was given access to more services.

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He was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and oppositional defiance disorder.

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Nick was placed in a program known as night to

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night placement, a temporary arrangement used when the state had

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no stable foster homes available. Children in the programme and

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were frequently moved, sometimes every night. Sleeping wherever space could

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be found, often on couches or floors, and group homes, shelters,

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or short term placements. It was chaotic for the children

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and detrimental to their sense of safety and well being.

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Nicholas later claimed that during this period he was subjected

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to both physical and sexual abuse, pointing to bruises and

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scrapes on his body as evidence of what had happened

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when he was in the system.

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That sounds like a really bad situation for.

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Night placement, sounds like a nightmare. And these kids are

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already struggling so much with you know, lack of security,

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and yeah, it's just so deleterious to their futures, I think.

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As a teenager, Nicholas, then known as Nicholas Rossi, became

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a familiar presence at the Rhode Island State House. At

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just fourteen years old, A judge helped him get a

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job working as a legislative page, and he quickly developed

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a reputation as a kind of mini politician. Many lawmakers

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were struck by the teenagers in eligence, confidence, and political instincts,

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describing him as articulate and unusually savvy, especially for his age,

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Drawing out his experiences in the foster care system, Nick

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became increasingly outspoken about the Rhode Island Department of Children,

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Youth and Families or DCYF, arguing that the system needed reform,

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and positioned himself as an advocate for other children in

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state custody. In his mind, no one was better suited

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to fix the system than someone who claimed to have

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experienced its darkest corners. Nick formed a close relationship with

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Rhode Island State Representative Brian Coogan. Cougan referred to Nick

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as his sixth son, and he and his wife even

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considered adopting him after he complained about the physical and

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mental abuse he'd suffered in various foster homes. One day,

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Nick called Cougan in desperation, begging him to finalize the

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adoption immediately. He insisted it had to happen that day,

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claiming Rhode Island authorities were about to remove him from

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this date. Cougan rushed to court with Nick, hoping to

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make the adoption official, but before the proceedings move forward,

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Judge Jeremiah Jeremiah asked to speak with Cougan privately in

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his chambers. He delivered a stunning warning Jeremiah said Nick

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had inflicted many of his injuries on himself and had

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also been abusing other children in the homes where he lived.

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He bluntly described him as a bad seed and urged

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Cougan not to proceed with the adoption, warning that doing

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so would destroy his family. Cougan heeded the warning and

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decided not to go through with the adoption. Nick was

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briefly relocated to Omaha, Nebraska to Boystown, a residential treatment

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facility for at risk youth, then later moved to Manatee

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Palm's Youth Services in Brydenton, Florida, where he lived until

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he was eighteen years old. In two thousand and five,

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he returned to Rhode Island before moving to Ohio, where

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he lived with Sharon and Charles Lane. Although Nick was

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over eighteen, their relationship resembled a foster her parent and

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child dynamic. The Lanes grew very fond of Nick and

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treated him like a son, offering guidance on his education

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and employment, and even helping him purchase a small home.

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Sharon told The Providence Journal Nick had the ability to

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pull the wool over so many people's eyes. When I

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look back, I can see a pattern, but at the time,

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we were busy living our lives.

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I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about Nick yet,

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but he has been through the ringers his young life. Yeah,

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I'm curious what happened to his mom? Did he stay

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in touch with her?

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I think that's a really important question. I couldn't find

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much information about her, but I know that she struggled

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00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.679
with substance abuse, and I think that she might have

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00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.519
had relationships with them, but they never lived with her again,

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especially Nick, But he did have a relationship with his

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birth father's brother. His father died when he was fairly young.

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I think he'd been his father had a very tumultuous

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00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:56.720
sight to you again, but yeah, he had an uncle

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00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:01.480
that he saw. But Nick was deceptive but charismatic, so

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he would have these meaningful relationships with people when he

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was so manipulative.

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You know.

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I don't think anyone really ever knew who Nick really was.

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I don't think Nick knew who he was either. Interesting

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as a warning to listeners, this next section involves sexual abuse.

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In late two thousand and seven, Nick twenty one, moved

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from Florida to Dayton, Ohio. Mary Grubinsky was nineteen when

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she met him at Sinclair Community College. She thought he

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seemed nice and friendly and offered to show him around.

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Mary had a boyfriend and wasn't interested in dating, but

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Nick said he was only looking for friendship. One day,

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after having lunch together, he offered to walk her to

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her class, but instead took her to the basement of

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a building and attacked her, pinning her against a wall.

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Nick grabbed at Mary's clothes, groping her and kissing her aggressively.

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00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.679
He pulled down her pants, touching her before he ejaculated

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00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:59.000
onto a wall. She ran away and went to her class,

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unable to process what had just happened because she hadn't

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00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.320
examed that day. When the class was over, Nick was

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00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:09.519
standing outside waiting for her. He apologized fervently and begged

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00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:12.440
her not to tell anyone, But something told Mary that

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00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:16.080
this wasn't Nick's first sexual assault. He seemed to know

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00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.480
exactly what he was doing. Concerned that he might target

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00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.279
someone else, she reported the assault to campus police. He

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00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:28.080
was later arrested and charged with public indecency and sexual imposition.

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He pleaded not guilty, and the case proceeded to trial,

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00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.320
where he was ultimately convicted on both charges. When it

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00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:38.679
came time for sentencing, Nick arrived in a three piece suit,

317
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walking with a limp and carrying a cane. The judge

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00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.639
ordered him to pay a fine, attend a class for

319
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.600
sexual offenders, and register as a sex offender every year

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00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.960
for the next fifteen years, something that Nick was loath

321
00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.679
to do, but he evaded jail time. So the cane

322
00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.600
and the limp was that a just an attempt to

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00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.879
get sympathy from the exactly later, Mary learned that Nick

324
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.759
had sexually assaulted another woman in Ohio just two weeks before,

325
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.720
but that woman had not pursued charges. Several months later,

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00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.559
Nick went to the judge with what he called new information.

327
00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.680
He showed the judge Mary's MySpace page. There was an

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00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.640
entry in which Mary admitted to cheating on her boyfriend

329
00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.359
with Nick. In the entry, she said she had made

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00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.920
up the sexual assault allegations so her boyfriend wouldn't break

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00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.799
up with her. Mary firmly told the judge that she

332
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.079
did not write that entry. The judge sided with Mary,

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00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:35.880
but Nick couldn't let the matter go. He sued the

334
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.079
prosecutor and Mary for libel while continuing to cyberstock and

335
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.519
docks her and her family. He posted her personal information

336
00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.039
on a blog called A Voice for Men. He later

337
00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:50.279
wrote a blog post titled My Personal nine to eleven

338
00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.759
in which he compared Mary to a terrorist blowing up

339
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.200
his life. When you're comparing your own troubles to nine

340
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.079
to eleven, that's never never a good sign. Disgusting es

341
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.839
actually when it seems like he's brought these troubles on himself.

342
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.160
When the case returned to court, the judge again ruled

343
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:09.240
in Mary's favor, ordering Nick to pay her legal fees.

344
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.920
She later told Dateline that the ordeal had taken her

345
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:13.759
will to live.

346
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.240
So this took years of Mary's life, and the lawyer

347
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.480
fees and all that. I mean Nick was supposed to

348
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.640
pay some of them. It just really was overwhelming to

349
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.759
her and took a lot of her youth. She is

350
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.240
married now, and at some point her husband was talking

351
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:35.039
to some show and called Nick a monster, and then

352
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:40.720
Nick sued her husband for libel Tooez. So this story

353
00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.759
is important because it shows you who he is. That

354
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.359
he's not willing to admit that he made a mistake,

355
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.079
that he's never going to back down, and he's going

356
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.039
to use the legal system to his advantage and try

357
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to intimidate his victims.

358
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While living in Utah. Later in two thousand and eight,

359
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.480
Nicholas was charged in two separate rape cases coming from

360
00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.039
alleged sexual assaults, one involving a twenty four year old

361
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.599
woman in Utah County in September and another involving a

362
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.720
twenty one year old woman in Salt Lake County in November.

363
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.960
This story is a little difficult to pinpoint because Nick

364
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.640
moved around so much, and he didn't always use the

365
00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:21.519
names like we said earlier Alaverdian or Rossi. So he's

366
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.759
already been in Rhode Island and Ohio and now he's

367
00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:28.599
in Utah, and I'm sure by Florida and Montanas Yeah.

368
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.039
And I'm sure there are sexual assaults that went unreported

369
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.440
in that time as well. In September two thousand and eight,

370
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.000
while living in Aorum, Utah, Nick began dating a new woman,

371
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.680
but she broke things off after a few weeks when

372
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.240
he became increasingly belittling, controlling, and claimed that she had

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00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.759
mental problems. During the course of their brief relationship, he

374
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.039
stole money from her. Shortly after their breakup, he called

375
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.279
her and told her that he wanted to repay her,

376
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.000
but she needed to meet him at his apartment, but

377
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.559
once there, Nick admitted he did not actually have the money.

378
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.000
The situation quickly became uncomfortable. The woman said he began

379
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.279
engaging in a sexual act, and when she tried to leave,

380
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.400
he pulled at her clothing, forced her onto the couch,

381
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.440
and raped her. She said the assault was brief, but

382
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.920
she was left distraught and was also horrified that he

383
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.839
had not used a condom. She recalled him dismissing her concern,

384
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.480
telling her it wasn't a big deal. Afterwards, she fled

385
00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:28.880
Nick's apartment and drove to a friend's home in Provo, Utah.

386
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.559
The friend went with her to report the incident to

387
00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:36.240
the police. A police officer delivered the money Nick owed her. Later,

388
00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.799
Nick contacted her and suggested she drop the charges now

389
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:43.039
that he had repaid her, but she refused. It's really

390
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.559
odd that he got the police officer to deliver money

391
00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:47.480
that he owed to her.

392
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.960
I know it seems very hard to believe, but I

393
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:50.559
did read that.

394
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:54.519
Yeah. In November, Nick began dating a twenty four year

395
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.319
old woman. She was in a vulnerable place in her

396
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.640
life after just surviving a scooter accident that left her

397
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.079
with a traumatic brain injury. She met Nick from a

398
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.359
personal ad on Craigslist and found him charming with a

399
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.680
calming presence. Enjoying their flirtatious chats, they soon agreed to

400
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.039
meet in person. After dating for only two weeks, Nick

401
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.920
pressured her to get married, and she reluctantly agreed. They

402
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.039
went to the mall and bought wedding rings that the

403
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.920
woman paid for. Soon after, Nick's behavior became controlling and abusive.

404
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.559
When she tried to end the engagement. Following a heated argument,

405
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:31.559
Nick assaulted and raped her.

406
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.720
So she filed charges against Nick, but it wasn't until

407
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.839
much later, like twenty twenty or after she'd seen him

408
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:41.960
on she was featured on TV. Yeah, and then she

409
00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.839
was like, wait a minute, you know I know him? Yeah,

410
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.160
and then she decided to press charges.

411
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:50.680
Nick then contacted the Oram Police Department to file a

412
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.599
report of his own. He claimed that his girlfriend had

413
00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:57.240
sexually assaulted him. He admitted that she had accused him

414
00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.640
of raping her first. In his statement, Nick Vick alleged

415
00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.880
that she had repeatedly forced physical contact, including holding him

416
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.839
down and kissing him despite his objections. He also claimed

417
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.400
she demanded sex because he owed her money. Nick further

418
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.000
alleged that she stayed at his home for days at

419
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.000
a time, even after he asked her to leave. He

420
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.799
also claimed that one of her friends had threatened him,

421
00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.559
warning that he would be seriously harmed. Throughout his report,

422
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:28.920
Nick denied sexually assaulting anyone and portrayed himself as the

423
00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:32.079
victim in the relationship. So once again this pattern of

424
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:35.240
his of using the law to try to go on

425
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:35.960
the offensive.

426
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.640
I guess right, and his lies are telling on himself,

427
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.079
Like everything that he is accusing the woman of which

428
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:44.640
the women would prefer to stay anonymous, as why er

429
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:47.400
just referred to them as their age and location. But yeah,

430
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.559
everything that he's accusing is things that he actually did.

431
00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:52.839
Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

432
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.960
After his time in Utah, Nick returned to Rhode Island,

433
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.920
where he began working as a lobbyist and became an

434
00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:10.960
outspoken advocate for foster children, insisting the system needed reform.

435
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.480
In his view, no one was better suited to fix

436
00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:16.799
it than someone who claimed to have experienced its worst failures.

437
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.680
In twenty ten, Nick twenty three, founded the Nicholas Alaverdian

438
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.640
Foundation to confront the foster system head on. He solicited

439
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.880
donations from supporters and promoted the organization through media appearances,

440
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.839
though details about his funding and operations were often unclear.

441
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.359
In twenty eleven, Nick filed a lawsuit against the Rhode

442
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.599
Island Department of Children, Youth and Families and others, alleging

443
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.960
he had been raped, tortured, and beaten while in state care.

444
00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.680
He settled the lawsuit after the state agreed to dismiss

445
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.640
more than two hundred thousand dollars of his medical debt,

446
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.160
much of which stemmed from psychiatric treatment that he received

447
00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:58.279
after aging out of the system, care he claimed was

448
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:02.759
necessitated by abuse he suffered while in state custody, although

449
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.279
the state never admitted any wrongdoing. Publicly, Nick was gaining

450
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.759
sympathy and recognition as a champion for vulnerable children, but privately,

451
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.759
a different picture began to emerge. In his personal relationships.

452
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.880
Most very brief, he often sought out vulnerable women who

453
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:23.759
he could dominate in control. Several described similar patterns of

454
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:29.000
manipulation and emotional abuse. Women in several states accused Nicholas

455
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:33.039
Alaverdian of sexual assault. Like You pointed out. His moving

456
00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.960
around I think, you know, enabled him to abuse more women.

457
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.440
In twenty ten, Nick returned to Rhode Island, continuing his

458
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.839
lobbying campaign against DCYF. Nick married for the first time

459
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.799
around twenty twelve. I don't know much about her. I

460
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.519
think her name was Emma, but she too has chosen,

461
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:52.960
you know, not to live a public life. Nick was

462
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.440
arrested for domestic violence. He was so upset over the

463
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.240
arrest police had to use pepper spray to calm him down.

464
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.599
He pleaded no contest. He served no jail time and

465
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.039
was given probation. Emma filed for a divorce soon after

466
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.319
and obtained a protective order against him. I'm not sure

467
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:11.319
how long the marriage lasted. I think it was less

468
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:14.680
than a year. After next divorce, he returned to Dayton,

469
00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:18.920
where he started a nonprofit called Community Progress Institute to

470
00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:23.200
help revitalize the downtown. So you lived in Dayton a

471
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:26.839
long time ago, about three years. What do you remember

472
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:27.319
of Dayton.

473
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:31.000
Well, I lived there quite a few years before this

474
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.279
case takes place. But it was there were nice parts

475
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.079
and there were parts that weren't so nice and could

476
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.400
definitely have used some revitalization.

477
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.079
Shortly After his move to Dayton, Nick met Catherine Heckendorn,

478
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.079
who was a member of the Church of Latter day Saints.

479
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.720
She'd been in an abusive relationship and was very cautious

480
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.400
about dating again, but Nick took things slow and gained

481
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.559
her confidence. After dating for only a few months, they

482
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.079
married in October twenty fifteen at City Hall. Only the

483
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.839
three people were present, Katherine, Nick, and the officiant, Far

484
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.720
from the wedding that she'd dreamt about. Catherine said the

485
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.680
change came almost immediately after the wedding. The charming, attentive

486
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:14.680
man that she dated became controlling and abusive, expecting her

487
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:19.680
to adopt a submissive nineteen fifties housewife role, wearing dresses

488
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.440
and pantyhose while cooking and cleaning. Nick forbade her from

489
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.519
spending time with friends or family. He discouraged her from working,

490
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.440
and restricted her access to money, expecting her world to

491
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.720
shrink to the home. She had over fifty thousand dollars

492
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.920
saved in a savings account, and Nick demanded that she

493
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.000
turned that money over to him. Just nineteen days into

494
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.640
the marriage, Nick was arrested for domestic abuse. The arresting

495
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.880
officer warned Katherine that her new husband had a record

496
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:51.559
and was a registered sex offender. If she didn't leave him,

497
00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:54.839
he would likely kill her, The officer warned. If Catherine

498
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.799
denied him sex, Nick raved her and would lock her

499
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.200
in the bathroom for a day or two without food.

500
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.599
Catherine told journalists Jane mcsorlely that within a few months

501
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.599
of being married, she had a psychotic break and was

502
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.200
hospitalized for a week. Their unhappy marriage lasted just eight months.

503
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:14.720
One day, when she fled from their house with only

504
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:18.119
a few possessions, planning to leave him, Nick followed in

505
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.440
his car and chased her through traffic. As Catherine tried

506
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.240
to evade him, she ran a red light and slammed

507
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:28.720
into another car. Luckily, she escaped uninjured. Nick slipped away

508
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.680
from the scene when the police arrived. When the process

509
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.279
server tried to deliver the divorce papers to Nick, he

510
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.559
avoided them by wearing disguises and denying that he was

511
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.240
Nicholas Alaverdian. Finally, in May twenty sixteen, a judge granted

512
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.119
the divorce and said Nick was guilty of gross neglect

513
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.559
of duty and cruelty on account of his abusive behavior.

514
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.640
Catherine was granted a restraining order against him.

515
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.359
Oh. He We've already talked about this pattern that he has,

516
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:58.720
but it's just so disturbing, like really like praying on.

517
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.319
You said it best that you vulnerable women who are

518
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:03.920
in a difficult situation or who have just come out

519
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.119
of a breakup, or who are having, you know, challenges,

520
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:10.519
and he's just seems like he is really like knows

521
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:12.319
exactly how to manipulate them.

522
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:15.880
Yeah, it's really disturbing that these young women who have

523
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.319
been through a lot already and they think that he's different,

524
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:24.240
he instantly proves that he's not. After the divorce, law

525
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:27.920
enforcement approached Catherine and asked her for help finding Nick.

526
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.440
He was wanted for fraud in Ohio using the name

527
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:34.279
of his former foster parents. Do you remember the nice

528
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.200
couple that had kind of taken him under his wing

529
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.680
even though he was over eighteen and took care of

530
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.240
him well. Nick had opened over twenty credit card accounts

531
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.640
in their name and also took out some loans, charging

532
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.119
over two hundred thousand dollars to their name. And these

533
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:51.119
were people that were like so good to have really

534
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:53.680
cared about him. Nick was also in trouble for not

535
00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.319
updating his address with the Rhode Island Sex Offender Registry

536
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.960
after his move to Ohio, landing himself on Rhode Island's

537
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.640
Most Wanted list. In twenty twenty, Nick was hired by

538
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:09.400
a Canadian woman, Nofseca Antipass. She had a television show

539
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:13.119
called Plant Based with Nofseca where she cooked vegan meals.

540
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.799
She hired Nick through a freelance website for about seven

541
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.519
thousand dollars a month to help with marketing as she

542
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:23.880
was branching out and starting a vegan cheese company, Nafseca's Garden.

543
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.920
Nick used the name Timothy Arthur and Nicholas Knight Brown

544
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:32.640
and sold himself as a Harvard graduate and an international attorney.

545
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.000
He told her that he lived in Ireland and she

546
00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:37.880
was in Canada, so they never met in person or

547
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.680
even on a zoom call. They communicated through phone calls, texts,

548
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.359
and emails. He was quite charming in the beginning. Nofseca

549
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:47.880
was excited to have him on board as he promised

550
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.960
great things, but quickly the excitement turned to disappointment when

551
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.839
he didn't deliver. He was full of excuses and often

552
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.440
sick or his wife was sick. Or his dog was sick.

553
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.079
Always had an excuse why the work wasn't being done.

554
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.480
After about four months, Nafzga told him that she was

555
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:10.960
withholding payment until he produced something. Nick instantly turned cruel

556
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.599
and threatening. He sent her the following email, You have

557
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:17.559
no clue what you're dealing with. I left my entire

558
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:21.319
client portfolio to work for you full time. Either settle

559
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:25.640
this or suffer. Expect the hellish wrath of litigation and

560
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.440
the legal system to fall upon you. Settle or your

561
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.160
company and brand will be destroyed. End of story. The

562
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.960
world will soon know that you are a fraud and

563
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.759
that your cheese is not vegan. After he posted a

564
00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:43.799
series of allegations against her on social media, Nafziga took

565
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:47.359
his threat seriously. Hoping to quell his campaign against her,

566
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.160
she paid him twenty five thousand dollars. Later, she hired

567
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:54.559
a private investigator to track him down, only to discover

568
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.640
that she had been deceived. She was mortified by the

569
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:01.680
entire experience. When she was antacted by the FBI, she

570
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:05.160
shared her account with them as the investigation into him

571
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:05.759
heat it up.

572
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.920
Wow, that's just crazy.

573
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.119
So manipulative, and I don't believe he ever did a

574
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:13.119
lick of work. So she paid him like forty thousand

575
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.480
dollars of his salary and then paid him all twenty

576
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.200
five thousand.

577
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:18.519
Wow, be careful who you hired.

578
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.599
I believe that he was really was creating this smear

579
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.000
campaign against her and her cheese. I think is pretty

580
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.119
highly rated and it is vegan. Yeah, but it was

581
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:31.319
just like he's willing to spread lies about people, right,

582
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:33.200
just you know, for his own benefit.

583
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.599
On June fourth, twenty seventeen, Nicholas Alaverdian flew from New

584
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.920
York City to Dublin, Ireland using his American passport. He

585
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.079
then traveled to London and eventually to Essex, where he

586
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.519
met a woman named Michelle Minar on a dating website

587
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.880
shortly after he left the United States. What began as

588
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:55.759
a brief stay soon stretched into weeks. He refused to leave,

589
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.440
gradually becoming controlling and manipulative. She later said he conned

590
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:04.680
her out of money, became increasingly aggressive and sexually assaulted her.

591
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.480
I am surprised that he was able to travel on

592
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.079
his passport when he was wanted in Utah and felony

593
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:11.839
rape charges.

594
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:13.839
Yeah, that is a little bit surprising, but I guess

595
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.319
maybe because it was a state charge, maybe the federal

596
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:21.039
government didn't connect it could be while he was away.

597
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.079
One day, Michelle packed his belongings and brought them to

598
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.279
a local police station, hoping to finally rid herself of him.

599
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:33.319
After he left, Alaverdian largely disappeared. Investigators later learned he

600
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.319
had obtained a driver's license in Ireland under the name

601
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:41.319
Nicholas Brown, further obscuring his whereabouts. Even while living abroad,

602
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.960
Alaverdian remained in contact with people in the United States,

603
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.480
continuing to do his lobbying work, telling some that he

604
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:52.440
had been diagnosed with non Hodgkins lymphoma and had weeks

605
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.480
to live. Though he was gone from her life, Michelle

606
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:58.880
remained fearful that he might return and checked the Internet

607
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.119
for news about him. In early March twenty twenty, she

608
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:07.319
stumbled across something shocking an online obituary for Nicholas Alaverdian.

609
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:11.079
He died on February twenty ninth, twenty twenty, at age

610
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:15.160
thirty two. Something about the obituary didn't sit quite right

611
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:18.960
with Michelle. Her suspicions led her to contact law enforcement

612
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.359
in Utah, where Nick was still wanted on rape charges.

613
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.839
She informed them of the obituary and her experience with

614
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:29.480
him years earlier. Although investigators had been aware of the

615
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.240
obituary and also viewed it with skepticism, Michelle's tip was

616
00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:36.359
valuable and became one of several that helped them trace

617
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.880
his movements after he had fled to Europe. Here is

618
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.200
the obituary. Nicholas Alaverdian's battle for life ended on February

619
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.599
twenty ninth, twenty twenty. The children and families in the

620
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:51.319
care of the Rhode Island Department of Children, Youth and

621
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.039
Families for whom he claimed to have fought on the

622
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:58.079
front lines for two decades, have lost a warrior. Mister

623
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:01.839
Alverdian died two months after going public with a diagnosis

624
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.680
of non Hodgkin lymphoma. He was thirty two. At his

625
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:10.039
bedside where his wife, their two children, and extended family,

626
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.400
his last words were said to be fear not and

627
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.440
run toward the bliss of the sun.

628
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:16.719
That's so beautiful.

629
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.199
As he passed, the room was reportedly filled with the

630
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:24.079
end credits music from the nineteen ninety seven film Contact,

631
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.960
composed by Alan Silvestri, a film and score that held

632
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.599
special meaning for him. A devout Roman Catholic, Aliverdian's remains

633
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.039
were cremated, with his ashes scattered at sea. Politicians across

634
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.039
Rhode Island paid tribute to the man they described as

635
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:44.440
one of the most vocal, outspoken, and constructive advocates for

636
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.639
reforming the state's child welfare system. A fighter in spirit

637
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:52.199
but a peacemaker in practice. His name was spoken in

638
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.360
memoriam in the chambers of the House and Senate, and

639
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.760
in city halls across the state. Providence Mayor Jorge Elorza

640
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.000
remembered him as a beloved community leader whose selflessness and

641
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.639
lifelong contributions to the residents of Rhode Island earned him

642
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.159
the admiration and respect of many. For years, Alaverdian had

643
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.480
been a frequent presence on Rhode Island radio, appearing on

644
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.760
programs such as The Buddy Ciance Show, The Dan Yorke Show,

645
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.519
and Saturday Morning News with Steve Clampkin, where he spoke

646
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:26.599
about the abuse he said children suffered in state care.

647
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.079
A public memorial service will be planned for a later date.

648
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:35.280
Alaverdian was described as a product of Providence's renaissance, inspired

649
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.039
by the transformation of the city under the late Mayor

650
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:42.480
Vincent A. Ciance Junior, whom he reportedly considered a friend.

651
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:47.360
He was a man of many talents, painter, author, amateur, ornithologist,

652
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:53.639
political scientist, sociologist, accomplished orator, and tireless child welfare advocate.

653
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:56.840
At just fourteen years old, he began working as a

654
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.039
page at the Rhode Island Statehouse, where he claimed to

655
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.039
provide lawmakers with first hand insight into abuses within the

656
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:08.519
DCYF system. He became the youngest lobbyist in Rhode Island history,

657
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.599
continuing his fight for reform. His early life had been

658
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:16.800
marked by a Dickenzian existence, including severe abuse while in

659
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.440
state custody and in out of state facilities in Nebraska

660
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:26.119
and Florida, experiences he later helped expose. Alaverdian continued pushing

661
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:28.920
for reform until the end of his life. Just two

662
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.840
weeks before his death, a bill creating a DCYF Oversight

663
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.880
Commission had reportedly been introduced in his honour. He later

664
00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:41.480
attended Harvard University. Described as the most peaceful and intellectually

665
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.039
fulfilling four years of his life, aside from the final

666
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.239
years spent with his young family. Mister Alaverdian left behind

667
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.199
a wide circle of friends from the worlds of politics,

668
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.440
media and business who had filled the final years of

669
00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:59.360
his life with love, joy, excitement, and wonder.

670
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.519
Isn't that a beautiful tribute? Is a beautiful it's actually

671
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:06.159
an abridged version of the obituary too.

672
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.920
Are there any parts of it that are true at all?

673
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:14.039
So he really loved the Harvard education part, and I

674
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.559
was I knew that couldn't be true, but it actually

675
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.119
was a little true. I guess Harvard has like satellite courses,

676
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:25.039
and he took some satellite courses from Harvard, not the

677
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.559
same as going to Harvard. He definitely didn't go to

678
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.440
Harvard for four years. I don't think that he had

679
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:32.840
a college degree. I think he attended, you know, several

680
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.880
different community colleges, and I don't believe he had a degree.

681
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.719
He definitely did not have two children, So.

682
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.039
Just crazy, really quite something.

683
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.039
But when I pass, if you just want to, I

684
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:45.880
think it would be really copy and paste this is

685
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.400
my life. To change that key's to she's, that would

686
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.400
be a really beautiful tribute. And I also have a

687
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.360
very big link to the contact. No, I don't even

688
00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:58.239
know it really.

689
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:03.599
After We're done here in Rhode Island on the house floor.

690
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:07.800
After his death, Nick was recognized by representatives and senators

691
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:11.960
for his work. In response to speculation that Nicholas Alaverdian

692
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.960
had staged his death and that the obituary was fake,

693
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.239
a woman named Louise, who claimed to be his widow,

694
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.039
sent a five page letter to the Providence Journal. In it,

695
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:26.440
she forcefully rejected the rumors unless my husband was cloned

696
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.960
and died in my arms and faked cancer diagnosis, treatment

697
00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:33.599
and heart disease heart attacks for months before that he

698
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:37.280
passed away in my arms. She went on to urge

699
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:41.440
Rhode Island law enforcement to instead investigate what she described

700
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:46.079
as years of abuse Alaverdian had allegedly suffered, including claims

701
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.719
that he had been beaten, forced to work without pay

702
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:52.800
at gunpoint as a campaign manager in twenty sixteen, and

703
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.119
assaulted by a politician years earlier. However, when asked to

704
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.840
provide a copy of Alaverdian's death certificate, Louise ignored the request.

705
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.400
Louise later contacted Father Bernard Healey at Our Lady of

706
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.840
Mercy in Providence, Rhode Island, asking if he would hold

707
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:14.199
a memorial mass He initially agreed, but soon after Rhode

708
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:17.719
Island State Police contacted him and urged him to cancel

709
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.760
the service. Investigators told him that Alaverdian was wanted in

710
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:25.800
connection with financial and violent crimes, and that they believed

711
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.400
he had faked his own death and fled to Europe

712
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:33.360
to avoid prosecution. Authorities soon learned that Louise had requested

713
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:37.000
memorial masses at other churches as well. Each one was

714
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.519
canceled after law enforcement intervened, much to her frustration. Investigators

715
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:47.119
were increasingly convinced that Alaverdian was alive somewhere in Europe,

716
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.559
but for years they were unable to determine exactly where

717
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.039
he was. And Nicholas Alaverdian vanished once again. And who

718
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.639
was Louise? I was going to ask you that, did

719
00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.039
Louise actually exist?

720
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:01.639
That's a really good, good question. What do you think?

721
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:05.559
I think No, just based on his obituary something.

722
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:10.199
Clearly he wrote the obituary, and whatever was written to

723
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.360
the newspaper too, that five page letter, I believe he

724
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:14.079
wrote that as.

725
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:16.239
Well, We'll be back after a break.

726
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.840
David Levitt, a Utah County prosecutor, proved relentless in his

727
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.159
pursuit of Nicholas Rossi. Even as the case took on

728
00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:34.960
increasingly bizarre twists, Levitt discovered a trobe of rape kits

729
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.039
that had never been investigated, and it became his mission

730
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:41.199
to find the suspects and prosecute them. One of the

731
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:44.559
evidence kits linked ala Verdian to a two thousand and

732
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:47.360
eight rape in Utah, the case of the girlfriend who

733
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.280
he'd borrowed money from and then raped when she demanded repayment.

734
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:55.559
Levitt's office filed charges against Nick and twenty twenty, only

735
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:59.119
to discover soon after that an online obituary claim that

736
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:01.920
he had died of cant Rather than allowing the case

737
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:06.639
to quietly fade, Levitt pressed forward, coordinating with investigators as

738
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:09.519
they worked to determine whether Nick was truly dead or

739
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:12.280
if he had faked his own death. After subpoena ying

740
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.239
Nick's financial records and searching his social media records, it

741
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.079
looked as if he was still very much alive and

742
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:23.199
had tried to out smart law enforcement. In September twenty twenty,

743
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.360
and arrest warrant was issued for Nicholas Rossi and Utah County.

744
00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:30.559
It took years, but detectives eventually tracked him down to

745
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:33.960
Ireland in twenty seventeen. He'd bought a one way ticket

746
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:36.840
from New York to Ireland, believing that once he had

747
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:39.719
left the country, he no longer had to register as

748
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:43.360
a sex offender. When Arthur Knight was eventually identified as

749
00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:48.239
Nicholas Alaverdian, Levitt's office remained closely involved as the extradition

750
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:52.119
battle unfolded in Scottish courts. For Levitt, the case was

751
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.880
about ensuring that serious allegations were hurt in court, and

752
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.880
he maintained pressure on the case for years until Nick

753
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.960
was ultimately returned to the United States to face trial.

754
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.519
While fighting extradition, Nick launched a quiet smear campaign against

755
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.559
David Levitt. As Levitt mounted a bid for Utah, Attorney General,

756
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:15.840
Alaverdian accused him are participating in ritualized child's sex abuse

757
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:21.719
in cannibalism, which was untrue. Levitt strongly denied the accusations,

758
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:25.440
noting they stemmed from a long debunked case involving allegations

759
00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:28.639
made years earlier by a woman whose claims had been

760
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:34.360
investigated multiple times. Independent review and law enforcement investigations found

761
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:37.800
no evidence to support the accusations. And no criminal charges

762
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.519
wherever filed. That's kind of a ridiculous accusation, don't you

763
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:42.119
think it is?

764
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:45.119
But you know, sometimes you make these crazy accusations like.

765
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:46.519
That and people believe in them.

766
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.159
Sticks enough. Yet people want to believe, you know, some

767
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.559
of these kind of crazy conspiracy theories, and it could

768
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:53.400
definitely cause some harm to him.

769
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:56.119
And at this point you realize that Nick is he's

770
00:42:56.280 --> 00:43:00.760
very smart and very manipulative, and he's really good with

771
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:06.559
his computer and making these outrageous claims against people. As

772
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:10.719
David Levitt campaigned for office, the allegations gained traction, and

773
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.840
he ultimately lost the election by a three to one margin.

774
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:18.679
Undeterred and freshly motivated, David Levitt was determined to bring

775
00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:21.639
ala Verdian back to the US to face charges.

776
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.800
So it sounds like this became pretty personal to Levitt

777
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.360
at this point, right, And who can blame him?

778
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:31.079
Now we're back where we started. On December thirteenth, twenty

779
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:35.559
twenty one, police arrived at Lean Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow,

780
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.360
Scotland to arrest the man they believed had been on

781
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.119
the run for four years. The man who called himself

782
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:45.280
Arthur Knight, had only recently emerged from a COVID induced coma.

783
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.840
After a year's long search, investigators tracked him to Scotland

784
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:52.559
through digital records, including activity linked to his iCloud account

785
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.159
that placed him in Glasgow. The man who had spent

786
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:58.840
years carefully concealing his identity and movements had grown less

787
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:02.639
cautious during his illness. Typically meticulous about covering his tracks,

788
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:06.079
he left behind a digital trail that ultimately allowed investigators

789
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:09.239
to pinpoint his location, ringing an end to years of

790
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:13.119
uncertainty about his whereabouts. An intrapol alert was issued for

791
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.960
Nicholas Alaverdian Arthur Knight appeared frail but not gaunt. He

792
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:21.000
was heavy set, his skin mottled and pale, with a

793
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:24.679
thick salt and pepper beard that framed his face. Confined

794
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:28.320
to a wheelchair and dependent on supplemental oxygen, he wore

795
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.760
a nasal canula and moved slowly as if he were underwater,

796
00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:35.800
often appearing winded after speaking. His voice was weak and

797
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:40.000
strained the lingering effects of his bout with COVID. Behind

798
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.000
his round glasses, his eyes appeared small and watchful, giving

799
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:48.159
him a guarded, wary expression despite his weakened condition. He

800
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.880
erupted in anger when asked if he was Nicholas Alaverdian,

801
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:56.960
his subdued demeanor giving way to sudden hostility and defiance.

802
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.519
Arthur claimed to be an Irish orphan and an insisted

803
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:03.440
he had never set foot in the United States, but

804
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:07.559
he could not produce a birth certificate or a reliable identification,

805
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.599
and the inconsistencies in his story only deep in investigator's suspicions.

806
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:17.239
Police arrested him in his hospital room that day. Investigators

807
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:21.360
were sure of his identity despite his loud protestations. Authorities

808
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:25.840
confirmed that his distinctive tattoos and fingerprints matched those of

809
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:30.519
Nicholas Alaverdian, establishing that he was alive and had attempted

810
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:33.440
to fake his own death. Investigators also learned that he

811
00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.400
had tried to escape the hospital by arranging for a

812
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:41.199
private ambulance. Following his arrest, Alavertian remained in the hospital

813
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.079
under police guard, handcuffed hose bed while he recovered, with

814
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:49.599
officers stationed nearby. Nick proved to be a difficult patient.

815
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:53.719
Hospital staff described him as rude, angry, and demanding. He

816
00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:56.719
reportedly flew into a rage when staff suggested that he

817
00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:01.280
might not need supplemental oxygen or could be using his legs.

818
00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:04.440
His behavior escalated to the point that he was charged

819
00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.840
and later convicted of behaving in a threatening or abusive

820
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:11.280
manner towards hospital staff during his stay. When he was

821
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:15.079
finally discharged in January twenty twenty two, he was formally

822
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:18.320
taken into custody and transferred to a prison in Edinburgh

823
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:22.840
to await extradition hearings. While in police custody, his oxygen

824
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:25.920
tank and mask were gone once a doctor decided they

825
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:29.239
weren't necessary. Later that month, he was granted bail but

826
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.400
required to wear an ankle monitor. This is all a

827
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.079
little confusing, Are you following?

828
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:36.159
I think so. I mean, obviously there's a lot of

829
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:39.000
different names here that he's using, but it's the same guy.

830
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:41.199
The one thing I'm unclear on, and maybe this will

831
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:46.239
become clear, is whether the COVID really affected him, Like

832
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:49.880
does he remember who he was? Does he know what

833
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.800
he has done? Or is he truly you know, was

834
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.079
he in a coma and so.

835
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:56.679
You're thinking that he could have amnesia and he doesn't know.

836
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:58.159
Who he is, So it just sort of sounds like

837
00:46:58.199 --> 00:46:59.039
he's he's.

838
00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:00.960
Able to say like pinpointed like, oh, I was an

839
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:02.880
orphan and we're going to talk up more about his

840
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.239
growing up now. Arthur Knight, the man authorities believed to

841
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.400
be Nicholas Alaverdian, claimed that he was born on November

842
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:13.760
twenty second, nineteen eighty six, in Ireland, and I think

843
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:18.400
Nicholas Alaverdian was born in nineteen eighty seven. He had

844
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.000
no birth certificate, and although he said he possessed a

845
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.400
driver's license, he never produced it. According to Arthur Knight,

846
00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:26.719
he never knew his parents and grew up in an

847
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:30.280
orphanage where he was neglected and mistreated. He said that

848
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:33.360
at age fourteen, he and several other boys escaped the

849
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.559
orphanage and fled to London, where they survived on the

850
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:40.079
streets selling books. I'm surprised that he didn't use the

851
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:44.480
name Oliver Twist. Over time, he claimed he had lost

852
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:47.800
contact with the other boys, saying they had succumbed to

853
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.559
life on the streets. Throughout he remained adamant that he'd

854
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.199
never set foot in the United States and was not

855
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.280
Nicholas Alaverdian or Nicholas Rossi or any of the other

856
00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:00.840
aliases that he had used throughout the years.

857
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:03.719
I'm actually really curious what his accent sounded like, because

858
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:06.400
if he's saying he grew up in Ireland, like he

859
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:09.559
would have had to have an accent SOLDI and I.

860
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:11.679
Want to include a clip, but they were all from

861
00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:14.480
Dateline and were trying to not steal Dateline's clips. Highly

862
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:19.559
suggest going and listening to that. After his arrest in Glasgow,

863
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:24.239
Knight actively sought media attention, frequently speaking with journalists while

864
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:28.280
emphatically insisting that he was not Nicholas Alaverdian. He often

865
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:32.039
appeared in a wheelchair, wearing an oxygen mask covering most

866
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.440
of his face and speaking in this weak, strained voice.

867
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:38.679
He was still recovering from a severe case of COVID nineteen.

868
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:42.320
He appeared in frail health, struggling at times to breathe

869
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.719
and speak in between fits of coughing. His loyal wife

870
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:49.360
Miranda always by his side. So I think five years

871
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.519
have passed since people had really seen this guy in

872
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.840
the United States who they're claim, and he's gained a

873
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.639
lot of weight. He has like salt and pepper here

874
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:00.519
now he's thick beard, and he always has this mask

875
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:03.079
on his face, and the mask it's like a it's

876
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.480
not like it's a big mask and it has like

877
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.719
it's like an oxygen bag and it's attached to the

878
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:13.119
oxygen tank. So he's using this recovery from COVID nineteen,

879
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:14.679
you know, as part.

880
00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:18.480
Of this, say disguise's appearance. Yeah. Jane McSorley is an

881
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:22.079
investigative journalist with the BBC and the creator of the

882
00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:26.400
podcast I'm Not Nicholas. After news broke about the mysterious

883
00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:29.400
man claiming to be Arthur Knight and the possibility of

884
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:33.920
an international case of mistaken identity, she spent hours interviewing

885
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.320
him and his wife, Miranda, trying to untangle the truth

886
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:41.320
behind his identity. Arthur and Miranda invited her to their

887
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.679
tiny flat for dinner. She found them to be forthcoming

888
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.679
and gracious hosts, but when she questioned Arthur about his childhood,

889
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:52.559
he was foggy on key details. He attributed his hazy

890
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:56.000
memory to his poor health and explained that he suffered

891
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:00.440
from seizures which affected his recall. Jane was aware Thatnicholas

892
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:05.960
Alaverdian had distinctive tattoos, including a mythological titan Atlas holding

893
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:10.119
up the heavens, an anchor, a classic Irish Clata design

894
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:13.400
on his forearm and the red, black and white coat

895
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:16.599
of arms of Brown University on his shoulder. She was

896
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.880
nervous because she knew as a journalist that she had

897
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:22.400
to ask Arthur to roll up his sleeves so she

898
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.400
could examine his arms for what would prove his identity

899
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:31.119
as Nicholas Alaverdian. Journalists had asked before, and Arthur had refused,

900
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:34.679
saying he was too physically exhausted or that it was

901
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:39.039
a ridiculous request. But when Jane asked, Arthur gladly rolled

902
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:41.920
up his sleeves to his elbows and showed her his arms.

903
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:45.840
She was gobsmacked that they were completely free of tattoos.

904
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:50.360
She found herself falling under his spell. Arthur was passionate,

905
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:54.079
and his story, at least on the surface, seemed plausible.

906
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:57.639
Jane began to wonder if he might actually be telling

907
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.960
the truth. Could he be a twin? What was going on?

908
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.199
After all, tattoos don't just disappear overnight. His bail was

909
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:10.440
revoked in June twenty twenty two after authorities raised concerns

910
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.440
about his behavior and the risk that he might attempt

911
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:16.400
to flee, and he was taken back into custody to

912
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:20.199
await extradition. He proved to be a difficult prisoner for

913
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:25.159
both staff and other inmates. Arthur reportedly screamed and shouted

914
00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:29.039
through the night, disrupting the unit and preventing others from sleeping.

915
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:33.440
He frequently complained about his treatment and medical care, insisting

916
00:51:33.559 --> 00:51:37.679
he required full time assistance. At one point, despite claiming

917
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:40.400
he could not use his legs, he kicked a guard

918
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:44.239
with enough force to cause serious injury. When frustrated, he

919
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:48.159
would sometimes throw himself from his wheelchair. He also accused

920
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:52.800
guards of being pedophiles, further escalating tensions. By the time

921
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:56.719
he was finally set to be extradited, other prisoners reportedly

922
00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:00.320
taunted him, singing leaving on a jet plane as he

923
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:03.960
was being taken away. On August second, twenty twenty three,

924
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:08.519
Nicholas Alaverdian was ruled eligible for extradition by a court

925
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:12.639
in Edinburgh, Scotland, after the judge determined that Arthur Knight

926
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:17.320
was Nicholas Alaverdian, the fugitive wanted in the United States.

927
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:21.039
The judge said that Nick was quote as dishonest and

928
00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:24.960
deceitful as he is evasive and manipulative One of.

929
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.840
The craziest things about this case, in my opinion, is

930
00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:31.000
that anyone gave any credence at all to his claims

931
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:36.039
that he was not Nicholas Alaverdian because his fingerprints matched. Sure,

932
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:38.760
his appearance was a little different, right, he was able

933
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:39.880
to do the accent.

934
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:42.920
I am curious about the tattoos though, but yeah, the

935
00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:45.480
fingerprints would pretty much tell the story, right.

936
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:46.280
Yeah.

937
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:49.840
He did his best to delay the process, firing multiple

938
00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:54.480
attorneys and generally being very difficult. During the proceedings, Nicholas

939
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:59.000
Alavertian repeatedly interrupted the court, argued about his identity, and

940
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:02.480
complained about his treatment and health. At one point, he

941
00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:05.880
spoke over the judge and raised his voice while insisting

942
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:09.119
he was not the man wanted by US authorities. The

943
00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.400
judge warned him about his conduct and instructed him to

944
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:16.679
allow the proceedings to continue. Months later, after exhausting the

945
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:21.079
appeals process, on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty four, Ali

946
00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:25.360
Verdian was physically extradited and returned to Utah, where he

947
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:28.360
was taken to Salt Lake City to face charges. On

948
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:32.280
January fifth, twenty twenty four, Nick faced a Utah judge

949
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:35.320
for the first time, he requested to the judge that

950
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:38.880
he and everyone else address him as Arthur Knight. The

951
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.960
judge refused. He was offered a plea deal, but rejected it.

952
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:46.519
For months, nick had appeared in court in a wheelchair,

953
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:50.239
breathing through an oxygen mask and insisting he was too

954
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:53.119
sick to stand, but at one point he seemed to

955
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:56.159
forget his health problems as he rose from his wheelchair

956
00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:59.800
to address the judge, an unexpected moment that only deepened

957
00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:03.519
the skepticism about just how sick he really was.

958
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:08.199
On October sixteenth, twenty twenty four, while requesting bail, Nicholas

959
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:11.639
finally acknowledged the judge I was born with a name

960
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:17.039
Nicholas Alaverdian, though he continued speaking in his unusual accent.

961
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:19.800
He claimed he had left the country and changed his

962
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:23.239
name after Rhode Island politicians sent him death threats and

963
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:27.360
retaliation for his efforts to reform the state's child welfare system.

964
00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:32.280
He also insisted on representing himself during preliminary proceedings, despite

965
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.960
the judge warning that doing so was a bad idea.

966
00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:38.320
Alavertian claimed that he had studied law in England and

967
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:42.639
was capable of defending himself every judge's favorite. Yeah, especially

968
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:45.880
this guy. He said that David Levitt had manipulated the

969
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:49.760
fingerprint results, and someone had tattooed his arms while he

970
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:51.559
was in a medically induced coma.

971
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:55.840
It's so long tattooed the exact tattoos that Nicholas Alverdian

972
00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:57.599
had on this guy's arms.

973
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:00.599
You don't believe that he is a victim. Maybe his

974
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:04.960
Prosecutors sought to introduce testimony from as many as nine

975
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:08.440
additional women who allegedly had been assaulted by him, and

976
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:12.360
investigators believed there were likely more who never came forward. However,

977
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.280
the judge ruled that their testimony would be prejudicial and

978
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:19.639
excluded it from both trials. Nearly seventeen years after the assaults,

979
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:23.559
the victims finally took the stand. Their testimony was emotional

980
00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:26.320
and at times difficult, but it marked a long awaited

981
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:31.239
step towards accountability. Prosecutors argued that ala Verdian's actions changing

982
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.960
his name, leaving the country, adopting a new identity, and

983
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:39.480
even faking his death demonstrated consciousness of guilt. During her

984
00:55:39.559 --> 00:55:43.480
victim impact statement, one woman described how the assault altered

985
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:46.760
the course of her life. Quote in two thousand and eight,

986
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:50.880
I began a relationship with mister Rossi. He became controlling

987
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.039
verbally and emotionally. Eventually he stole money from me. I

988
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:57.519
was pressured to come over to the apartment and resolve

989
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:03.599
the money issue. He forced himself on me. I've felt shame, fear, guilt, confusion.

990
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.559
It stole who I was. I used to be open, trusting,

991
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:12.039
and joyful. Now I mistrust instinctively. She spoke about the

992
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:15.119
ripple effects of the assault, including the damage to her

993
00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:18.800
relationship with her father, who blamed her for what happened.

994
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:22.039
Quote A man who should have been protecting me, but

995
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:25.679
instead used the situation to punish, shame and control me

996
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:31.079
more harshly than before. His recriminations and emotional cruelty retraumatized me,

997
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.920
compounding my suffering. She's talking about her dad there. That's

998
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:39.000
really disturbing. Yeah, that is he was not supported at all. Bad.

999
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:42.440
When the judge asked if he wished to speak, Alaverdian

1000
00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:46.559
responded briefly, I will be incredibly terse. I'm not guilty

1001
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:48.840
of this. These women are lying. In a due course,

1002
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:52.480
we will launch an appeal. Thank you. His attorney then

1003
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:56.360
asked for a leniency, citing Alavertian's difficult childhood and the

1004
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.800
time that he had already spent in custody.

1005
00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:01.480
I thought he represented himself a good catch.

1006
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:04.400
He did in the beginning, like during the preliminary hearings,

1007
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:06.960
and then he took on a child. At both trials,

1008
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.360
Nicholas Alivertian was found guilty of first degree felony rape

1009
00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:13.440
and sentenced to five years to life in prison. The

1010
00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:17.800
judge ordered that the sentences would be served consecutively, meaning

1011
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:20.760
that he faces a minimum of ten years behind bars.

1012
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:23.639
After ten years, he'll go in front of a parole board.

1013
00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:27.000
He was never prosecuted on the fraud charges, remember the

1014
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:30.960
two hundred thousand dollars of loans, and so I'm wondering

1015
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:34.000
if maybe they are saving that for later, and if

1016
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:36.360
he comes before the parole board, that they would charge

1017
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:38.400
him with those charges and he would be forced to

1018
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:39.159
stand prison life.

1019
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:41.119
It sounds like there are a lot of other women

1020
00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:44.360
that they could go after him for other sexual assault

1021
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:45.880
charges as well if they wanted to.

1022
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:48.400
I know it varies from state to state, but the

1023
00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:51.559
statute of limitations probably would apply in some of those.

1024
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:54.159
Good point the person that I'm most curious. Well, I

1025
00:57:54.199 --> 00:57:57.119
shouldn't say most curious, but I'm super curious about Miranda.

1026
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:00.320
We don't know a lot about Miranda. But Miranda Knight

1027
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.320
was born in South Bristol, England, in nineteen eighty, making

1028
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:07.960
her about seven years older than Nicholas Alavertian. Friends from

1029
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.360
her earlier years described her as bright, cheerful and creative,

1030
00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:15.039
with a particular talent for art and interior design, which

1031
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:18.599
she studied in college. Miranda first met Arthur Knight in

1032
00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:21.559
twenty eleven at a London art museum. The time, they

1033
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:24.960
did not immediately begin a romantic relationship. In fact, in

1034
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.400
twenty twelve, Nicholas Alaverti and married his first wife, and

1035
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:31.440
it wasn't until years later that he and Miranda reconnected

1036
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.920
and began dating. Their relationship eventually deepened, and the couple

1037
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.679
married in February twenty twenty. So one of the questions

1038
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:40.400
in this case is did she know that he was

1039
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:44.239
really Nicholas Alaverdian And this seems to suggest that she

1040
00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.800
must have if she met him in twenty eleven, unless

1041
00:58:48.039 --> 00:58:51.599
he baked his identity to her. So, following their marriage,

1042
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.800
Miranda became a devoted supporter of Nix, standing by him

1043
00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:58.199
even as questions about his identity and past began to surface.

1044
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.079
She publicly stated that she would always stand by him

1045
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:03.519
and describe him as a loving husband, and claimed that

1046
00:59:03.639 --> 00:59:05.960
he was not at all abusive to her. She said

1047
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:09.559
that without him she feels lonely and misses him. Those

1048
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:12.400
who knew her described her is deeply committed to her husband,

1049
00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:16.519
even as controversy surrounding him grew. After their marriage, Miranda

1050
00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:20.079
became increasingly tied to his legal battles and claims about

1051
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:22.519
his identity. She was confident that it was a case

1052
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.119
of mistaken identity and her husband is not Nicholas ala Verdian.

1053
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:29.400
I had you look up a picture of Miranda, because

1054
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.199
I think we look a little alike in the way

1055
00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:33.519
that all the redheads look alike.

1056
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:35.360
No, it's definitely it. I would say a little bit

1057
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:37.320
of a resemblance between you and Miranda.

1058
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:41.119
It makes me sad because I think that she is

1059
00:59:41.159 --> 00:59:44.320
a really good person that she got involved with him,

1060
00:59:44.360 --> 00:59:46.760
And I guess you could argue whether she's a victim

1061
00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:47.119
in this.

1062
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:49.599
Or not, And well, it seems like maybe she is

1063
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:53.320
refusing to believe what is clear to the rest of us.

1064
00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:55.199
Which I you know in yourwer.

1065
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:57.760
Is that just publicly like I feel like privately she

1066
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:00.320
must have known because he must have been walking around

1067
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:02.400
because he's clearly not paralyzed.

1068
01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:05.119
Yeah, yeah, I would think that she would have to know.

1069
01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:09.360
Do you remember the prosecutor, David Levitt? Of course ironically

1070
01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:13.239
he bought a Scottish castle and is retired in Scotland.

1071
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:16.519
Oh wow, yeah, it's a really full castle.

1072
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:17.000
By the way.

1073
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:19.239
Well, it's nice not to have a rest in peace

1074
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:21.639
segment at the end, I did want to talk about

1075
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:24.639
the victims in this case. Yeah, we want to recognize

1076
01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:27.679
the brave women who went to law enforcement to report

1077
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:33.760
sexual assault. Reporting takes tremendous courage. Survivors often carry the emotional, psychological,

1078
01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:36.760
and sometimes physical impact for the rest of their lives.

1079
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:41.440
Coming forward can mean reliving their trauma, facing skepticism, and

1080
01:00:41.559 --> 01:00:46.679
navigating a highly invasive and exhausting process. Gathering forensic evidence

1081
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:50.280
can take hours and often require survivors to recount what happened.

1082
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.400
While injuries are documented and evidence is collected, sometimes just

1083
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.119
hours after experiencing the trauma, many survivors choose not to report,

1084
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:02.840
and that decision is understandable because the process is invasive,

1085
01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:07.719
emotionally exhausting, and offers no guarantee of accountability, while also

1086
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:11.920
risking scrutiny of their actions and choices and even their reputation.

1087
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:16.280
Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes. Out

1088
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:19.639
of every one thousand sexual assaults, about three hundred ten

1089
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:24.320
are reported to police. Of those, only fifty result in arrest,

1090
01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:28.280
twenty eight lead to felony conviction, and only twenty five

1091
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:32.840
result in incarceration. These numbers highlight not only how difficult

1092
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:35.000
it is to come forward, but how rare it is

1093
01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:38.840
for survivors to see accountability through the justice system. If

1094
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:41.760
you are someone you know has experienced sexual assault, help

1095
01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:44.920
is available in the United States. You can contact the

1096
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:49.119
RAIN RAI n N National Sexual Assault Hotline at eight

1097
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.599
hundred sixty five six HOPE, or visit rain dot org

1098
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.480
to chat confidentially with a trained advocate believe the survivors.

1099
01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:00.000
Well, that was very well said, and I'm glad you

1100
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:03.800
said that, because I was thinking through this case that yeah,

1101
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:06.639
it's nice for a change not to have a murder victim.

1102
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.960
But in all the women you talked about, all the victims,

1103
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:12.079
and I'm sure there are many more that we don't

1104
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.079
know about. It really occurred to me how much this

1105
01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:18.800
impacted their lives, especially with some of the examples you

1106
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:21.360
talked about with like legal fees and just you know,

1107
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:24.679
years of having to relive all this trauma and everything.

1108
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:27.880
It's just it's so sad and heartbreaking, and it really

1109
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:33.320
is frustrating that so many of these assaults end up unreported.

1110
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.679
But like you said, it's very understandable why.

1111
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:40.039
I mean, survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse carry

1112
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:42.599
that pain with them for the rest of their life,

1113
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:45.000
no matter how much therapy you have, and you don't

1114
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:47.880
think you can ever trust anyone completely after you have

1115
01:02:47.960 --> 01:02:50.559
been through those things. So you know, while there's not,

1116
01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:53.320
you know, a death in this case, there still certainly

1117
01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:56.199
are victims. And this is a very intriguing case. It's

1118
01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:57.320
very alluring.

1119
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:00.320
And yeah, anytime you have a case where someone is

1120
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:03.519
changing their identity, faking their death, those kind of cases

1121
01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:07.280
are very you know, they are very interesting to care about.

1122
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:10.920
And it is easy to lose the victims in that case,

1123
01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:12.840
So yeah, I wanted to make sure we mentioned them.

1124
01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:17.440
So remember when Jane McSorley, the journalist, had him roll up.

1125
01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:19.639
His sleeves I've been waiting to get answer, to get

1126
01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:22.000
in there. Honestly, I have no idea. I mean, I

1127
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.960
don't know where his tattoos were. And you said he

1128
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.480
only rolled his sleeves up to like his elbows exactly.

1129
01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:30.519
Yeah, he, I guess had started the removal process. I'm

1130
01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:33.880
not sure when and where. I think in the United States. Actually,

1131
01:03:33.920 --> 01:03:36.679
one of his wives said that when they were married

1132
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:39.760
that he had started the procedure to have them removed.

1133
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:42.960
So I think the ones on his forearms were propaitive,

1134
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:45.719
but not the ones higher up on his arms. So

1135
01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:48.320
that's why he was willing to roll up his sleeves

1136
01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:51.159
that far. But I guess we'll talk about this in

1137
01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:54.000
a little bit at the end segment. But the process

1138
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:57.079
of removing tattoos, it's progressed quite a bit.

1139
01:03:57.239 --> 01:03:59.800
Oh really, Yeah, I think that journalists should have been

1140
01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:01.880
made a little bit more skeptical. I don't know what

1141
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:03.039
she ended up concluding.

1142
01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:04.880
She wasn't the only one. I think a lot of

1143
01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:08.719
because if you listen to him, you know he sounds

1144
01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:12.320
he looks so much different. He looks the same but different. Yeah,

1145
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:14.320
you should google his accent.

1146
01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.719
His accent must have sounded authentic. To people. I guess right.

1147
01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:21.800
Ish, but there's so many accents in Great Britain and Ireland,

1148
01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:25.079
and you know, and you can tell some people are

1149
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.000
so educated in the accents that they can tell which

1150
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:31.280
neighborhood you're right from. So yeah, I'm not really sure why.

1151
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:33.599
I don't think I would have bought it. But actually

1152
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.599
I'm lying because when I first heard this case, Dateline

1153
01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:39.760
did a really great job doing this case, probably the

1154
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:42.559
best Dateline research I've ever heard. You know how Dateline

1155
01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:47.719
episodes can kind of manipulate the case and the information. Yeah,

1156
01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:49.679
and I felt like they did a really good job.

1157
01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:53.800
There's two episodes. One is from season thirty one, episode

1158
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:56.840
twenty eight, called The Dead Man Talking. The other is

1159
01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:01.760
season thirty three, episode ten, The Man Many Faces. Both

1160
01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:05.360
are really interesting. I don't think I could find the video.

1161
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:07.199
I had to listen to the podcast, but I had

1162
01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:10.119
heard them a couple of years ago. When I first

1163
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:12.320
heard the story, I was like, Oh, that's weird. Why

1164
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.280
would he have a case of mistaken identity? So yeah,

1165
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:18.119
I'm a little naive sometimes. Another thing that I find

1166
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:21.440
striking about this case is obviously he's a bright guy,

1167
01:05:22.239 --> 01:05:26.119
and he did do some good he did have some

1168
01:05:26.199 --> 01:05:30.000
bills passed when he was lobbying for child welfare. It

1169
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:32.239
just he could have been very successful. He could have

1170
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:34.559
gone to law school. He could have made a real difference.

1171
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:37.519
But another person that just couldn't.

1172
01:05:37.800 --> 01:05:40.159
Yeah, we see that over and over again, people who

1173
01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:43.559
obviously have something going for them, they have some level

1174
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:47.159
of intelligence, but they just can't become productive citizens.

1175
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:51.119
Well, that is the crazy mixed up case of Nicholas

1176
01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:55.760
ala Verdian, Nicholas Rossi, and Arthur Knight. Someday he will

1177
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:58.920
probably be out of prison. That is kind of scary

1178
01:05:58.960 --> 01:05:59.519
to think about.

1179
01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:00.800
Yeah, he's still.

1180
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:03.440
A relatively young man. I think, well, yeah, he's thirty nine.

1181
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:07.199
I believe I don't have any information about him in prison.

1182
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:11.000
I'm sure he's difficult, like when he was before he

1183
01:06:11.079 --> 01:06:13.639
was extradited back to the United States. You know, we

1184
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:16.199
know that he was really difficult. I would love to

1185
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:18.559
know if he is still using a wheelchair in prison.

1186
01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:21.360
I would imagine that would be dangerous first of all,

1187
01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:24.239
but just it wouldn't.

1188
01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:26.039
Yeah, it seems like a difficult person.

1189
01:06:26.119 --> 01:06:28.559
No matter where he is, he is a very difficult person.

1190
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:32.320
You can tell, like hospitals and courts and relationships in prison.

1191
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:36.199
Yeah, and Marianda too. I haven't been able to find

1192
01:06:36.199 --> 01:06:38.679
out what she's up to, but hopefully she has found

1193
01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:42.199
peace and she's happy in her life without him. Even

1194
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:44.920
though she said that they were not in an abusive relationship,

1195
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:47.280
I'm sure he was. That was. It's just who he is.

1196
01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:55.920
It's just a very difficult person. Yeah, before we go,

1197
01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.800
I wanted to talk about tattoos for a minute between us.

1198
01:06:58.880 --> 01:06:59.920
How many tattoos do we have?

1199
01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:00.920
We have zero.

1200
01:07:03.159 --> 01:07:05.400
I'm not opposed to tattoos. I think they're great. I

1201
01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:07.360
think it's a great form of self expression.

1202
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:09.599
I just feel like it's a big commitment. Like, I know,

1203
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.519
you gotta whatever you choose to tattoo on your body,

1204
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:14.159
Like you got to be really committed to it, and

1205
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:15.400
I'm just not that committed.

1206
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:20.199
I'm so lame. I think there are some really beautiful tattoos. Yeah. Again,

1207
01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:22.719
I'm not opposed to them. I just haven't done it.

1208
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:26.480
I thought of maybe getting like all of our initials

1209
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:29.599
and birthdays like on my wrist or something like. I

1210
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:32.159
feel like that's a good identifier, but oh, you want

1211
01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:32.960
to do that too, No.

1212
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:35.079
That would be the closest, you know thing I would

1213
01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:37.280
think to do if I was going to get a tattoo,

1214
01:07:37.360 --> 01:07:40.039
it would be about our family and the people that

1215
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:41.400
we love and things like that.

1216
01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:43.119
But I used to always tell our kids that you

1217
01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:45.719
had a tattoo of a hamburger on your butt. Do

1218
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:50.119
you remember that when they were a little Yeah, but

1219
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:53.360
they don't. Well, I think when they were little they

1220
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:54.880
kind of did catch them.

1221
01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:55.920
In the mirror trying to look at it.

1222
01:07:57.159 --> 01:07:59.840
No, no, no, you have oh that eye, not them.

1223
01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:02.440
I miss that.

1224
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:05.639
We have a great listener named Courtney who is a

1225
01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:07.760
tattoo artist, and I reached out to her and I

1226
01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:10.639
asked her a few questions about tattoos, like tattoo removal,

1227
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:14.119
how good it is Courtney's fabulaus. She sent us all

1228
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:17.039
those stickers. Remember we got all those great stickers. She

1229
01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:21.439
works at Higher Ground Tattoo in Bryson City, North Carolina.

1230
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:24.159
If you're looking for a tattoo, she's really busy. I

1231
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:26.960
think she has a lot of great followers. She seems

1232
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:29.600
to really love her work. You know, it's a form

1233
01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:32.239
of selfish expression for them too. And I know every

1234
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:36.600
tattoo artist has their own, you know style. She told

1235
01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:39.319
me a couple of funny stories, one with if you

1236
01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:43.399
are going to get a certain body part tattooed, consider

1237
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:48.119
the tattoo artists having to see like your hairy parts

1238
01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:49.079
in their face.

1239
01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:51.279
Maybe you could shave.

1240
01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:53.600
Your hairy part before you go to the tattoo artist.

1241
01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:56.319
And you should also like show them like an exact

1242
01:08:56.399 --> 01:08:58.560
picture of what you want. Because she said that even

1243
01:08:58.640 --> 01:09:00.720
when she was younger, she went to get a tattoo

1244
01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:04.159
and she asked for like a fairy, and they gave

1245
01:09:04.199 --> 01:09:07.239
her the bride of Frankenstein. Oh so oh boy, But

1246
01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:09.720
you know she has she's a tattoo artist. So I

1247
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:12.199
think it can be really a funny story if you

1248
01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:16.159
get like one of my favorite subreddits is shitty tattoo.

1249
01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:18.119
I was gonna say, I can't remember which what the

1250
01:09:18.199 --> 01:09:20.000
name of it is, but I follow that subrend.

1251
01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:21.920
Yeah, and a lot of times it's just if you

1252
01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:24.159
have multiple especially if you have multiple tattoos, I think

1253
01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:26.319
it can just be kind of a funny story. I

1254
01:09:26.319 --> 01:09:29.520
want to talk about removal. Really quick tattoo removal is possible,

1255
01:09:29.560 --> 01:09:32.439
but it's rarely quick or perfect, and some tattoos can

1256
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:37.159
never be fully erased. Because inks seeks deep sits deep

1257
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.720
in the dermis. Laser removal breaks it into smaller particles

1258
01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:44.520
that the body clears over time. This typically requires multiple treatments,

1259
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:47.920
often six to twelve sessions based weeks apart, meaning the

1260
01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:50.720
process can take a year or more with no guarantee

1261
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:54.520
of complete removal. Black ink is usually the easiest to remove,

1262
01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:57.960
while lighter colors like green, blue, yellow, or white are

1263
01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:02.039
much more difficult. Larger, professionally done tattoos are also harder

1264
01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:06.039
to eliminate, and even after extensive treatment, faint, faint outlines,

1265
01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:11.199
lingering color, or skin texture change changes often remain. In short, large,

1266
01:10:11.239 --> 01:10:15.720
distinctive tattoos rarely disappear without a trace. How many US

1267
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:17.640
adults do you think have tattoos?

1268
01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:22.079
Like? What percentage of US adults or maybe twenty percent?

1269
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:25.520
Thirty two percent? Oh wow, that's a little and worldwide

1270
01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:28.680
it's thirty six percent. Who do you think it's more tattoos?

1271
01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:29.399
Men or women?

1272
01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:31.359
I'm going to say women.

1273
01:10:31.560 --> 01:10:33.960
Yep, you're right. Thirty eight percent of women and twenty

1274
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:37.680
seven percent of men, and about twenty four percent of

1275
01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:41.920
Americans report some regret with their tattoos. Countries with the

1276
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:45.560
highest prevalence include Italy with forty eight percent Sweden forty

1277
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:48.920
seven percent, Spain forty two percent, and the United Kingdom

1278
01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:51.159
at forty percent. This must be an I don't know

1279
01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:53.520
if it's a newer statistic or an older statistic, but

1280
01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:55.520
it has the United States at forty six percent, and

1281
01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:57.520
I just said it was thirty two percent, So I

1282
01:10:57.520 --> 01:10:59.600
guess I should have done done a careful job with that.

1283
01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:02.399
But anyway, I hope you enjoyed that interesting.

1284
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.920
Well, the what you went through about how difficult it

1285
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:08.840
is to remove tattoos just reaffirms my point about not

1286
01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:11.840
getting a tattoo unless you're really sure of what you want, right.

1287
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:14.560
Oh yeah, it would be so bad to regret it.

1288
01:11:14.680 --> 01:11:17.319
I have some funny tattoo mistakes that people have made.

1289
01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:19.960
You've probably seen this one of a guy who got

1290
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.319
he wanted a tattoo that said no regrets and it

1291
01:11:22.359 --> 01:11:23.439
says no regard.

1292
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:25.199
Oh yes, that's that One's pretty famous.

1293
01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:27.439
And he said he doesn't regret it. That it's it

1294
01:11:27.479 --> 01:11:30.439
don't even better. I mean it is, it is funny.

1295
01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:34.439
One woman got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her ribcage

1296
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:37.680
after three months of dating, which solid decision. They broke

1297
01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:41.239
up two weeks later. She turned his name into a feather,

1298
01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:44.960
then a bird, and then black shading. A guy wanted

1299
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:48.920
a carpei dim tattoo, and he got what he got

1300
01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:53.960
says carpe diem d I u M, which basically means nothing.

1301
01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:57.039
He says, I should have seized a dictionary first. Someone

1302
01:11:57.079 --> 01:11:59.560
got a tattoo of their dog ended up looking like

1303
01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:03.520
half wolf, half raccoon, and slightly human, but they still

1304
01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:09.039
loved it. Someone wanted strength in Chinese characters. They later

1305
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:12.760
found out it actually said noodle soup. I think the character.

1306
01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:17.359
I think that people stick to your unless you don't

1307
01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:22.720
you know the language. Someone allegedly asked for a live

1308
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:27.319
love laugh and the tattoo artist accidentally accidentally wrote live

1309
01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:31.279
laugh loaf, which I don't believe flof like bread loaf,

1310
01:12:31.279 --> 01:12:33.960
which I kind of don't believe that one. So yeah,

1311
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:35.960
I have a funny story actually about my grandpa. I

1312
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:37.560
don't know if I've ever told you this. I loved

1313
01:12:37.560 --> 01:12:40.680
my grandpa so much. He had a tattoo like a

1314
01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:44.520
huge heart on his on his arm, and like a scroll.

1315
01:12:45.079 --> 01:12:48.399
The heart was blacked in at one point. It had

1316
01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.880
my grandmother's name in it, and I guess he used

1317
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:54.920
to always tell her that, you know, whenever they thought

1318
01:12:54.920 --> 01:12:56.960
he'd like, someday, I'm going to get this blacked in,

1319
01:12:57.359 --> 01:12:57.880
and he did.

1320
01:12:58.039 --> 01:12:59.359
He did, and they divorced.

1321
01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:02.640
Oh yeah, but yeah, my grandpa was like probably one

1322
01:13:02.680 --> 01:13:04.560
of the original you know a lot of people get

1323
01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:07.720
their tattoos blacked out and yeah, wow. So I was

1324
01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:09.319
thinking that you and I should we be able to

1325
01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:12.840
do this live We could go get Love Mary Killed.

1326
01:13:12.600 --> 01:13:16.159
Tattoos live stream or we've only been doing this for

1327
01:13:16.239 --> 01:13:18.319
three and a half years. It's not quite enough of

1328
01:13:18.359 --> 01:13:21.000
a commitment yet for me to get Love Mary to

1329
01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:21.920
kill us.

1330
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:23.479
Speaking of Love Mary Kill.

1331
01:13:24.119 --> 01:13:25.840
It's at transition right.

1332
01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:29.680
We passed two hundred episodes actually a while ago. We're

1333
01:13:29.720 --> 01:13:33.520
really bad at celebrating our stone milestones, but that's a

1334
01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:37.000
pretty big milestone for a podcast, and we're coming up

1335
01:13:37.079 --> 01:13:40.600
on a pretty big milestone for downloads. And do you

1336
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:41.359
want to say it or no?

1337
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:41.960
Sure?

1338
01:13:42.079 --> 01:13:46.119
Three million? Three million, yeah, which is like some people

1339
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:48.199
get that in a day, but not really, I mean

1340
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.279
only like, but we're really proud and we're so grateful

1341
01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:52.520
for all of your support.

1342
01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:53.479
You sure are.

1343
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:56.720
And another big thank you to Shan for the snack

1344
01:13:56.840 --> 01:14:00.479
and Courtney for your help and the tattoos off you

1345
01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:02.239
as are just the best. We love you so much

1346
01:14:02.359 --> 01:14:04.359
and your support just means the world to us.

1347
01:14:04.520 --> 01:14:08.359
Well, you've wasted another perfectly good hour listening to Love

1348
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:09.319
Mary Kill.

1349
01:14:09.359 --> 01:14:14.159
Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social media, YouTube,

1350
01:14:14.319 --> 01:14:19.000
and TikTok, and please consider supporting us on patreon dot

1351
01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:21.880
com slash Love Mary Kill. For five dollars a month,

1352
01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:29.239
you get our gratitude, a monthly bonus episode exactly all

1353
01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:31.439
of those great things until next time.

1354
01:14:31.680 --> 01:15:03.640
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1355
01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:16.359
The companion, the att