Nicholas Alahverdian/Nicholas Rossi/Arthur Knight

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing that we've learned it over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I am great? How are you? I have fabulous? Your voice sounds really good. Today. We just did art. We did some vocal warm. Leather, yellow leather. We realize we haven't really talked much today.

0:41 It's Monday, April sixth, at about two o'clock. You are off for the day, the day after Easter. Yeah, we are on our fourth falls spring here in Michigan. But I think it's going to be here to stay pretty soon. Oh So, I want to start with a segment that I'm going to call the marriage minute, but it'll probably be more like thirty seconds. But do you have any kudos or grievances that you want to go over with me? I don't really have a whole lot. I don't have any grievances. I think you're great. I think you're doing okay. I wasn't fishing for a compliment. No, I know, but I have no I have no grievances. Oh okay, I actually wanted to give you a compliment. Okay, I complained the other day about the garage. Do you remember this the latter we have this huge ladder that you usually have up on some sort of pins in the garage, and the pins became loose in the garage.

1:31 The ladder has been on the floor of the garage for six. Months, right in its front of where you park your right and. I never know if I'm going to hit the ladder or not. So I complained about I didn't. I just mentioned it once and you went right out fixed it and really changed my life. So I just wanted to say thank you for that. And also I wanted to thank you for all the work that you did on the NCAA tournament. I think that was kind of a lot of work, and it was a lot of it was. A labor of love. It was it was a lot of and then I thought, it will just be great to have like a group of people, you know, doing the tournament together. And it was really fine, and I think our listeners enjoyed it too. We're so grateful to everyone that participated. I imagine that we're not going to be able to stop you from doing it next year. So if you didn't participate this year, I hope that you joined us next year.

2:18 Honestly, I think next year we'll do We'll do the tournament, but I do think we should do a March Madness of snacks as well. Yeah, I would love to do that. We have like a bracket with different snacks and people can vote, so I think maybe we'll do both next year. Wow, you are in feeling ambitious. But we'll see how it goes. By the time this drops next Monday, this will be old news. But today is the finals. Yeah, Michigan will be the national champion by Monday when this drops. See how confident I'm feeling. Do you want to predict a score? Michigan killing it? They have been killing it. I'm going to say Michigan ninety three Yukon sixty seven. WHOA Okay, bold prediction. It's a very bold prediction.

3:00 And we'll see. Well, we are both wearing our Michigan sweatshirts. And it was so funny you sent me this news article this morning about Michigan students. We're camping out at bars overnight, so they have a you know, yeah, well, I hope it goes as planned. I hope so too. Well are you hungry? I am, You're always hungry. Of course. Our sweet listener, Shannon from Ohio sent us a really nice gift, a huge box full of charcouterie. She loves charcuterie. I love chart creudery. You love. I feel like I'm saying it funny. She sent us a ton of stuff. She sent us like this board of Cleveland, which we've been meaning to visit. The BUCkies is opening, Uh, it's actually opening today. Today is the grand opening of the BUCkies in Ohio. So we have been talking about going.

3:45 For a reason to go on a road trip. Right, it's a great reason. So yeah, April sixth is the day it's opening, which I imagine it's going to be crazy. But back to Shannon Snack. She sent us this cute cutting board, a dish towel, this deck of cards to put yeah, and olives and mustard and crackers and cheese and chariso and guys. It's so much. And Shannon's had us really great popcorn about a year ago. Do you remember that? I do. Yeah, it was all really good stuff. Well, would you like to try a little bit of Charcooterie. I would love to.

4:26 Did you enjoy that cheese and cheriso and these cute little heart shaped crackers? I did. It was so good. The cheese is like bacon gouda, and the chiso was delicious, and that we only tried like a small percentage of what Shannon was so nice. Shannon mentioned that the cheese is like you know they have, it's cheese that you can have at room temperature, and I actually really love processed cheese. I think it's really good. So thank you so much, Shannon. That was such a lovely gift. Are you ready to hear the crazy story of Nicholas Rossy, Nick Elavidian Arthur Knight. I'm not sure if I'm ready, but I'm going to get ready. He had sixteen aliases over the course of his life.

5:09 Oh my, pretty interesting story. Before we begin, though, I want to give a content warning. This episode includes discussion of sexual assault. While not explicit, we know this content may be difficult for some listeners, so please listen with care. In December twenty twenty one, a man named Arthur Knight was hospitalized at Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow, Scotland after developing a severe case of COVID nineteen. He spent several weeks in the hospital, placed in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator to help him breathe. Like in the United States, patients in the COVID ward weren't allowed visitors. Arthur's wife, Miranda, was devastated to be separated from her husband. Nurses placed a phone next to Arthur's ear so she could speak to him each day. Once he emerged from the coma, Miranda was allowed to visit as he slowly regained his strength, but he would never be the same. He was weak, his voice raspy. He required constant oxygen and relied on a wheel chair. Then one day, Scottish police entered his room while Miranda sat at his bedside. They asked her to step outside so they could question Arthur, but she refused to leave her husband in his fragile condition. An officer stepped closer, his tone calm but unmistakably firm. Mister Knight, he said, we will leave. You're a fugitive from justice in the United States.

6:29 Arthur stared back at him, his eyes wide with confusion and anger. The officer continued, your birth name is Nicholas Alaverdian. You've also used the name Nicholas Rossy, Sir, you are wanted in the state of Utah on two charges of felony rape. For a moment, the room fell silent. The man in the hospital bed shook his head. You've got the wrong person. I've never set foot in the United States, he insisted angrily. But investigators were already certain finger prints, photographs, distinctive tattoos, and his criminal record all pointed to the same conclusion. The man calling himself Arthur Knight was not who he claimed to be. In fact, authorities believed he was an American fugitive who had once convinced the world he died in twenty twenty.

7:15 Very interesting. If you're on the run, if you're a fugitive from justice, you probably don't want to go into the hospital for anything. Yeah, good point. I think he was very, very sick at this point. Nicholas Edward Alaverdian was born in Providence, Rhode Island, on July eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, to Diana de Philippo and Jack Alaverdian, who were married in nineteen eighty four. Nicholas also had a younger brother and sister. Nick's childhood was marked by instability and conflict within the home. His parents' marriage ended in nineteen ninety due to irreconcilable differences and domestic violence. Jack had a lengthy rap sheet that included drug dealing, theft, writing fraudulent checks, obtaining money under false pretenses, domestic abuse, and violating restraining orders. The domestic abuse was so bad at times that Diana went into hiding with the children. After the divorce, Jack Alaverdian disappeared from his children's lives. When Nick was seven, He and his siblings were legally adopted by David Rossi. Nick's name was changed to Nicholas Rossi. Nick's new father, David Rossi, was an entertainer. His stage name was David Anthony. He was the number one Ingelbert A humperdink impersonator in the world.

8:31 Wow. How many Engelbert humperdink impersonators are there in the world during that time? I don't know, but I've watched a lot of there's a lot of documentaries about this case, and David Rossi appears in all of them, and he seems like a very interesting miss. I'm going to have to watch a video. He met Diana at a nightclub where she worked as a cocktail waitress. David has done many interviews, and he has called Nick insolent, wicked, uncontrollable, abusive, and the devil's spawn. Nick had violent outbursts and constantly hit his mother and siblings. David told Dateline that on one particularly fraught morning, when he felt that he had lost control of his son, he picked Nick up, carried him out the door, and put him on the school bus wearing only his underwear.

9:19 Nick was placed in residential treatment facilities several times during his childhood for behavioral issues, as his parents to struggle to manage his behavior. During a family vacation to Disney World in Florida when Nick was about twelve, David Rossi lost his temper after he saw Nick hitting his mother again. He lost control and violently beat Nick, kicking and punching him at least twelve times. His injuries were bad enough to require hospitalization. Authorities were called and Rossi was arrested on child abuse charges. He said that he wasn't proud of how he acted and has regretted it ever since, describing it as a moment of anger getting the better of him. When Nick's mother presented paper documenting her son's psychological issues, the judge dropped the charges against David, but soon after David walked out on Diana and the children.

10:09 So in this story, like we've said, so, Nicholas already has two names in his birth name of Allaverdian and his adopted name of Nick Rossi. And so you hear a lot of people using different you know, those two different names mostly, and I wasn't sure how to refer to him, but I chose to use Elaverdian for most of the case because that's his birth name. Got it. In the aftermath, Nicholas and his siblings were removed from the home and became wards of the state. He was placed into the custody of Rhode Island's Department of Children, Youth and Families, so he was given access to more services. He was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and oppositional defiance disorder.

10:50 Nick was placed in a program known as night to night placement, a temporary arrangement used when the state had no stable foster homes available. Children in the programme and were frequently moved, sometimes every night. Sleeping wherever space could be found, often on couches or floors, and group homes, shelters, or short term placements. It was chaotic for the children and detrimental to their sense of safety and well being. Nicholas later claimed that during this period he was subjected to both physical and sexual abuse, pointing to bruises and scrapes on his body as evidence of what had happened when he was in the system. That sounds like a really bad situation for. Night placement, sounds like a nightmare. And these kids are already struggling so much with you know, lack of security, and yeah, it's just so deleterious to their futures, I think.

11:41 As a teenager, Nicholas, then known as Nicholas Rossi, became a familiar presence at the Rhode Island State House. At just fourteen years old, A judge helped him get a job working as a legislative page, and he quickly developed a reputation as a kind of mini politician. Many lawmakers were struck by the teenagers in eligence, confidence, and political instincts, describing him as articulate and unusually savvy, especially for his age, Drawing out his experiences in the foster care system, Nick became increasingly outspoken about the Rhode Island Department of Children, Youth and Families or DCYF, arguing that the system needed reform, and positioned himself as an advocate for other children in state custody. In his mind, no one was better suited to fix the system than someone who claimed to have experienced its darkest corners. Nick formed a close relationship with Rhode Island State Representative Brian Coogan. Cougan referred to Nick as his sixth son, and he and his wife even considered adopting him after he complained about the physical and mental abuse he'd suffered in various foster homes. One day, Nick called Cougan in desperation, begging him to finalize the adoption immediately. He insisted it had to happen that day, claiming Rhode Island authorities were about to remove him from this date. Cougan rushed to court with Nick, hoping to make the adoption official, but before the proceedings move forward, Judge Jeremiah Jeremiah asked to speak with Cougan privately in his chambers. He delivered a stunning warning Jeremiah said Nick

13:15 had inflicted many of his injuries on himself and had also been abusing other children in the homes where he lived. He bluntly described him as a bad seed and urged Cougan not to proceed with the adoption, warning that doing so would destroy his family. Cougan heeded the warning and decided not to go through with the adoption. Nick was briefly relocated to Omaha, Nebraska to Boystown, a residential treatment facility for at risk youth, then later moved to Manatee Palm's Youth Services in Brydenton, Florida, where he lived until he was eighteen years old. In two thousand and five, he returned to Rhode Island before moving to Ohio, where he lived with Sharon and Charles Lane. Although Nick was over eighteen, their relationship resembled a foster her parent and child dynamic. The Lanes grew very fond of Nick and treated him like a son, offering guidance on his education and employment, and even helping him purchase a small home.

14:10 Sharon told The Providence Journal Nick had the ability to pull the wool over so many people's eyes. When I look back, I can see a pattern, but at the time, we were busy living our lives. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about Nick yet, but he has been through the ringers his young life. Yeah, I'm curious what happened to his mom? Did he stay in touch with her? I think that's a really important question. I couldn't find much information about her, but I know that she struggled with substance abuse, and I think that she might have had relationships with them, but they never lived with her again, especially Nick, But he did have a relationship with his birth father's brother. His father died when he was fairly young.

14:51 I think he'd been his father had a very tumultuous sight to you again, but yeah, he had an uncle that he saw. But Nick was deceptive but charismatic, so he would have these meaningful relationships with people when he was so manipulative. You know. I don't think anyone really ever knew who Nick really was. I don't think Nick knew who he was either. Interesting as a warning to listeners, this next section involves sexual abuse. In late two thousand and seven, Nick twenty one, moved from Florida to Dayton, Ohio. Mary Grubinsky was nineteen when she met him at Sinclair Community College. She thought he seemed nice and friendly and offered to show him around.

15:31 Mary had a boyfriend and wasn't interested in dating, but Nick said he was only looking for friendship. One day, after having lunch together, he offered to walk her to her class, but instead took her to the basement of a building and attacked her, pinning her against a wall. Nick grabbed at Mary's clothes, groping her and kissing her aggressively. He pulled down her pants, touching her before he ejaculated onto a wall. She ran away and went to her class, unable to process what had just happened because she hadn't examed that day. When the class was over, Nick was standing outside waiting for her. He apologized fervently and begged her not to tell anyone, But something told Mary that this wasn't Nick's first sexual assault. He seemed to know exactly what he was doing. Concerned that he might target someone else, she reported the assault to campus police. He was later arrested and charged with public indecency and sexual imposition.

16:28 He pleaded not guilty, and the case proceeded to trial, where he was ultimately convicted on both charges. When it came time for sentencing, Nick arrived in a three piece suit, walking with a limp and carrying a cane. The judge ordered him to pay a fine, attend a class for sexual offenders, and register as a sex offender every year for the next fifteen years, something that Nick was loath to do, but he evaded jail time. So the cane and the limp was that a just an attempt to get sympathy from the exactly later, Mary learned that Nick had sexually assaulted another woman in Ohio just two weeks before, but that woman had not pursued charges. Several months later, Nick went to the judge with what he called new information.

17:14 He showed the judge Mary's MySpace page. There was an entry in which Mary admitted to cheating on her boyfriend with Nick. In the entry, she said she had made up the sexual assault allegations so her boyfriend wouldn't break up with her. Mary firmly told the judge that she did not write that entry. The judge sided with Mary, but Nick couldn't let the matter go. He sued the prosecutor and Mary for libel while continuing to cyberstock and docks her and her family. He posted her personal information on a blog called A Voice for Men. He later wrote a blog post titled My Personal nine to eleven in which he compared Mary to a terrorist blowing up his life. When you're comparing your own troubles to nine to eleven, that's never never a good sign. Disgusting es actually when it seems like he's brought these troubles on himself.

18:03 When the case returned to court, the judge again ruled in Mary's favor, ordering Nick to pay her legal fees. She later told Dateline that the ordeal had taken her will to live. So this took years of Mary's life, and the lawyer fees and all that. I mean Nick was supposed to pay some of them. It just really was overwhelming to her and took a lot of her youth. She is married now, and at some point her husband was talking to some show and called Nick a monster, and then Nick sued her husband for libel Tooez. So this story is important because it shows you who he is. That he's not willing to admit that he made a mistake, that he's never going to back down, and he's going to use the legal system to his advantage and try to intimidate his victims.

18:53 While living in Utah. Later in two thousand and eight, Nicholas was charged in two separate rape cases coming from alleged sexual assaults, one involving a twenty four year old woman in Utah County in September and another involving a twenty one year old woman in Salt Lake County in November. This story is a little difficult to pinpoint because Nick moved around so much, and he didn't always use the names like we said earlier Alaverdian or Rossi. So he's already been in Rhode Island and Ohio and now he's in Utah, and I'm sure by Florida and Montanas Yeah. And I'm sure there are sexual assaults that went unreported in that time as well. In September two thousand and eight, while living in Aorum, Utah, Nick began dating a new woman, but she broke things off after a few weeks when he became increasingly belittling, controlling, and claimed that she had mental problems. During the course of their brief relationship, he stole money from her. Shortly after their breakup, he called her and told her that he wanted to repay her, but she needed to meet him at his apartment, but once there, Nick admitted he did not actually have the money.

20:00 The situation quickly became uncomfortable. The woman said he began engaging in a sexual act, and when she tried to leave, he pulled at her clothing, forced her onto the couch, and raped her. She said the assault was brief, but she was left distraught and was also horrified that he had not used a condom. She recalled him dismissing her concern, telling her it wasn't a big deal. Afterwards, she fled Nick's apartment and drove to a friend's home in Provo, Utah. The friend went with her to report the incident to the police. A police officer delivered the money Nick owed her. Later, Nick contacted her and suggested she drop the charges now that he had repaid her, but she refused. It's really odd that he got the police officer to deliver money that he owed to her.

20:47 I know it seems very hard to believe, but I did read that. Yeah. In November, Nick began dating a twenty four year old woman. She was in a vulnerable place in her life after just surviving a scooter accident that left her with a traumatic brain injury. She met Nick from a personal ad on Craigslist and found him charming with a calming presence. Enjoying their flirtatious chats, they soon agreed to meet in person. After dating for only two weeks, Nick pressured her to get married, and she reluctantly agreed. They went to the mall and bought wedding rings that the woman paid for. Soon after, Nick's behavior became controlling and abusive. When she tried to end the engagement. Following a heated argument, Nick assaulted and raped her.

21:31 So she filed charges against Nick, but it wasn't until much later, like twenty twenty or after she'd seen him on she was featured on TV. Yeah, and then she was like, wait a minute, you know I know him? Yeah, and then she decided to press charges. Nick then contacted the Oram Police Department to file a report of his own. He claimed that his girlfriend had sexually assaulted him. He admitted that she had accused him of raping her first. In his statement, Nick Vick alleged that she had repeatedly forced physical contact, including holding him down and kissing him despite his objections. He also claimed she demanded sex because he owed her money. Nick further alleged that she stayed at his home for days at a time, even after he asked her to leave. He also claimed that one of her friends had threatened him, warning that he would be seriously harmed. Throughout his report, Nick denied sexually assaulting anyone and portrayed himself as the victim in the relationship. So once again this pattern of his of using the law to try to go on the offensive.

22:36 I guess right, and his lies are telling on himself, Like everything that he is accusing the woman of which the women would prefer to stay anonymous, as why er just referred to them as their age and location. But yeah, everything that he's accusing is things that he actually did. Yeah, we'll be back after a break. After his time in Utah, Nick returned to Rhode Island, where he began working as a lobbyist and became an outspoken advocate for foster children, insisting the system needed reform. In his view, no one was better suited to fix it than someone who claimed to have experienced its worst failures.

23:17 In twenty ten, Nick twenty three, founded the Nicholas Alaverdian Foundation to confront the foster system head on. He solicited donations from supporters and promoted the organization through media appearances, though details about his funding and operations were often unclear. In twenty eleven, Nick filed a lawsuit against the Rhode Island Department of Children, Youth and Families and others, alleging he had been raped, tortured, and beaten while in state care. He settled the lawsuit after the state agreed to dismiss more than two hundred thousand dollars of his medical debt, much of which stemmed from psychiatric treatment that he received after aging out of the system, care he claimed was necessitated by abuse he suffered while in state custody, although the state never admitted any wrongdoing. Publicly, Nick was gaining sympathy and recognition as a champion for vulnerable children, but privately, a different picture began to emerge. In his personal relationships.

24:15 Most very brief, he often sought out vulnerable women who he could dominate in control. Several described similar patterns of manipulation and emotional abuse. Women in several states accused Nicholas Alaverdian of sexual assault. Like You pointed out. His moving around I think, you know, enabled him to abuse more women. In twenty ten, Nick returned to Rhode Island, continuing his lobbying campaign against DCYF. Nick married for the first time around twenty twelve. I don't know much about her. I think her name was Emma, but she too has chosen, you know, not to live a public life. Nick was arrested for domestic violence. He was so upset over the arrest police had to use pepper spray to calm him down.

24:59 He pleaded no contest. He served no jail time and was given probation. Emma filed for a divorce soon after and obtained a protective order against him. I'm not sure how long the marriage lasted. I think it was less than a year. After next divorce, he returned to Dayton, where he started a nonprofit called Community Progress Institute to help revitalize the downtown. So you lived in Dayton a long time ago, about three years. What do you remember of Dayton. Well, I lived there quite a few years before this case takes place. But it was there were nice parts and there were parts that weren't so nice and could definitely have used some revitalization. Shortly After his move to Dayton, Nick met Catherine Heckendorn, who was a member of the Church of Latter day Saints.

25:46 She'd been in an abusive relationship and was very cautious about dating again, but Nick took things slow and gained her confidence. After dating for only a few months, they married in October twenty fifteen at City Hall. Only the three people were present, Katherine, Nick, and the officiant, Far from the wedding that she'd dreamt about. Catherine said the change came almost immediately after the wedding. The charming, attentive man that she dated became controlling and abusive, expecting her to adopt a submissive nineteen fifties housewife role, wearing dresses and pantyhose while cooking and cleaning. Nick forbade her from spending time with friends or family. He discouraged her from working, and restricted her access to money, expecting her world to shrink to the home. She had over fifty thousand dollars saved in a savings account, and Nick demanded that she turned that money over to him. Just nineteen days into the marriage, Nick was arrested for domestic abuse. The arresting officer warned Katherine that her new husband had a record and was a registered sex offender. If she didn't leave him, he would likely kill her, The officer warned. If Catherine denied him sex, Nick raved her and would lock her in the bathroom for a day or two without food.

27:00 Catherine told journalists Jane mcsorlely that within a few months of being married, she had a psychotic break and was hospitalized for a week. Their unhappy marriage lasted just eight months. One day, when she fled from their house with only a few possessions, planning to leave him, Nick followed in his car and chased her through traffic. As Catherine tried to evade him, she ran a red light and slammed into another car. Luckily, she escaped uninjured. Nick slipped away from the scene when the police arrived. When the process server tried to deliver the divorce papers to Nick, he avoided them by wearing disguises and denying that he was Nicholas Alaverdian. Finally, in May twenty sixteen, a judge granted the divorce and said Nick was guilty of gross neglect of duty and cruelty on account of his abusive behavior.

27:48 Catherine was granted a restraining order against him. Oh. He We've already talked about this pattern that he has, but it's just so disturbing, like really like praying on. You said it best that you vulnerable women who are in a difficult situation or who have just come out of a breakup, or who are having, you know, challenges, and he's just seems like he is really like knows exactly how to manipulate them. Yeah, it's really disturbing that these young women who have been through a lot already and they think that he's different, he instantly proves that he's not. After the divorce, law enforcement approached Catherine and asked her for help finding Nick. He was wanted for fraud in Ohio using the name of his former foster parents. Do you remember the nice couple that had kind of taken him under his wing even though he was over eighteen and took care of him well. Nick had opened over twenty credit card accounts in their name and also took out some loans, charging over two hundred thousand dollars to their name. And these were people that were like so good to have really cared about him. Nick was also in trouble for not updating his address with the Rhode Island Sex Offender Registry after his move to Ohio, landing himself on Rhode Island's Most Wanted list. In twenty twenty, Nick was hired by a Canadian woman, Nofseca Antipass. She had a television show called Plant Based with Nofseca where she cooked vegan meals.

29:13 She hired Nick through a freelance website for about seven thousand dollars a month to help with marketing as she was branching out and starting a vegan cheese company, Nafseca's Garden. Nick used the name Timothy Arthur and Nicholas Knight Brown and sold himself as a Harvard graduate and an international attorney. He told her that he lived in Ireland and she was in Canada, so they never met in person or even on a zoom call. They communicated through phone calls, texts, and emails. He was quite charming in the beginning. Nofseca was excited to have him on board as he promised great things, but quickly the excitement turned to disappointment when he didn't deliver. He was full of excuses and often sick or his wife was sick. Or his dog was sick.

30:00 Always had an excuse why the work wasn't being done. After about four months, Nafzga told him that she was withholding payment until he produced something. Nick instantly turned cruel and threatening. He sent her the following email, You have no clue what you're dealing with. I left my entire client portfolio to work for you full time. Either settle this or suffer. Expect the hellish wrath of litigation and the legal system to fall upon you. Settle or your company and brand will be destroyed. End of story. The world will soon know that you are a fraud and that your cheese is not vegan. After he posted a series of allegations against her on social media, Nafziga took his threat seriously. Hoping to quell his campaign against her, she paid him twenty five thousand dollars. Later, she hired a private investigator to track him down, only to discover that she had been deceived. She was mortified by the entire experience. When she was antacted by the FBI, she shared her account with them as the investigation into him heat it up.

31:05 Wow, that's just crazy. So manipulative, and I don't believe he ever did a lick of work. So she paid him like forty thousand dollars of his salary and then paid him all twenty five thousand. Wow, be careful who you hired. I believe that he was really was creating this smear campaign against her and her cheese. I think is pretty highly rated and it is vegan. Yeah, but it was just like he's willing to spread lies about people, right, just you know, for his own benefit. On June fourth, twenty seventeen, Nicholas Alaverdian flew from New York City to Dublin, Ireland using his American passport. He then traveled to London and eventually to Essex, where he met a woman named Michelle Minar on a dating website shortly after he left the United States. What began as a brief stay soon stretched into weeks. He refused to leave, gradually becoming controlling and manipulative. She later said he conned her out of money, became increasingly aggressive and sexually assaulted her.

32:05 I am surprised that he was able to travel on his passport when he was wanted in Utah and felony rape charges. Yeah, that is a little bit surprising, but I guess maybe because it was a state charge, maybe the federal government didn't connect it could be while he was away. One day, Michelle packed his belongings and brought them to a local police station, hoping to finally rid herself of him. After he left, Alaverdian largely disappeared. Investigators later learned he had obtained a driver's license in Ireland under the name Nicholas Brown, further obscuring his whereabouts. Even while living abroad, Alaverdian remained in contact with people in the United States, continuing to do his lobbying work, telling some that he had been diagnosed with non Hodgkins lymphoma and had weeks to live. Though he was gone from her life, Michelle remained fearful that he might return and checked the Internet for news about him. In early March twenty twenty, she stumbled across something shocking an online obituary for Nicholas Alaverdian.

33:07 He died on February twenty ninth, twenty twenty, at age thirty two. Something about the obituary didn't sit quite right with Michelle. Her suspicions led her to contact law enforcement in Utah, where Nick was still wanted on rape charges. She informed them of the obituary and her experience with him years earlier. Although investigators had been aware of the obituary and also viewed it with skepticism, Michelle's tip was valuable and became one of several that helped them trace his movements after he had fled to Europe. Here is the obituary. Nicholas Alaverdian's battle for life ended on February twenty ninth, twenty twenty. The children and families in the care of the Rhode Island Department of Children, Youth and Families for whom he claimed to have fought on the front lines for two decades, have lost a warrior. Mister Alverdian died two months after going public with a diagnosis of non Hodgkin lymphoma. He was thirty two. At his bedside where his wife, their two children, and extended family, his last words were said to be fear not and run toward the bliss of the sun.

34:15 That's so beautiful. As he passed, the room was reportedly filled with the end credits music from the nineteen ninety seven film Contact, composed by Alan Silvestri, a film and score that held special meaning for him. A devout Roman Catholic, Aliverdian's remains were cremated, with his ashes scattered at sea. Politicians across Rhode Island paid tribute to the man they described as one of the most vocal, outspoken, and constructive advocates for reforming the state's child welfare system. A fighter in spirit but a peacemaker in practice. His name was spoken in memoriam in the chambers of the House and Senate, and in city halls across the state. Providence Mayor Jorge Elorza remembered him as a beloved community leader whose selflessness and lifelong contributions to the residents of Rhode Island earned him the admiration and respect of many. For years, Alaverdian had been a frequent presence on Rhode Island radio, appearing on programs such as The Buddy Ciance Show, The Dan Yorke Show, and Saturday Morning News with Steve Clampkin, where he spoke about the abuse he said children suffered in state care.

35:26 A public memorial service will be planned for a later date. Alaverdian was described as a product of Providence's renaissance, inspired by the transformation of the city under the late Mayor Vincent A. Ciance Junior, whom he reportedly considered a friend. He was a man of many talents, painter, author, amateur, ornithologist, political scientist, sociologist, accomplished orator, and tireless child welfare advocate. At just fourteen years old, he began working as a page at the Rhode Island Statehouse, where he claimed to provide lawmakers with first hand insight into abuses within the DCYF system. He became the youngest lobbyist in Rhode Island history, continuing his fight for reform. His early life had been marked by a Dickenzian existence, including severe abuse while in state custody and in out of state facilities in Nebraska and Florida, experiences he later helped expose. Alaverdian continued pushing for reform until the end of his life. Just two weeks before his death, a bill creating a DCYF Oversight Commission had reportedly been introduced in his honour. He later attended Harvard University. Described as the most peaceful and intellectually fulfilling four years of his life, aside from the final years spent with his young family. Mister Alaverdian left behind a wide circle of friends from the worlds of politics, media and business who had filled the final years of his life with love, joy, excitement, and wonder.

37:00 Isn't that a beautiful tribute? Is a beautiful it's actually an abridged version of the obituary too. Are there any parts of it that are true at all? So he really loved the Harvard education part, and I was I knew that couldn't be true, but it actually was a little true. I guess Harvard has like satellite courses, and he took some satellite courses from Harvard, not the same as going to Harvard. He definitely didn't go to Harvard for four years. I don't think that he had a college degree. I think he attended, you know, several different community colleges, and I don't believe he had a degree. He definitely did not have two children, So. Just crazy, really quite something.

37:41 But when I pass, if you just want to, I think it would be really copy and paste this is my life. To change that key's to she's, that would be a really beautiful tribute. And I also have a very big link to the contact. No, I don't even know it really. After We're done here in Rhode Island on the house floor. After his death, Nick was recognized by representatives and senators for his work. In response to speculation that Nicholas Alaverdian had staged his death and that the obituary was fake, a woman named Louise, who claimed to be his widow, sent a five page letter to the Providence Journal. In it, she forcefully rejected the rumors unless my husband was cloned and died in my arms and faked cancer diagnosis, treatment and heart disease heart attacks for months before that he passed away in my arms. She went on to urge Rhode Island law enforcement to instead investigate what she described as years of abuse Alaverdian had allegedly suffered, including claims that he had been beaten, forced to work without pay at gunpoint as a campaign manager in twenty sixteen, and assaulted by a politician years earlier. However, when asked to provide a copy of Alaverdian's death certificate, Louise ignored the request.

39:02 Louise later contacted Father Bernard Healey at Our Lady of Mercy in Providence, Rhode Island, asking if he would hold a memorial mass He initially agreed, but soon after Rhode Island State Police contacted him and urged him to cancel the service. Investigators told him that Alaverdian was wanted in connection with financial and violent crimes, and that they believed he had faked his own death and fled to Europe to avoid prosecution. Authorities soon learned that Louise had requested memorial masses at other churches as well. Each one was canceled after law enforcement intervened, much to her frustration. Investigators were increasingly convinced that Alaverdian was alive somewhere in Europe, but for years they were unable to determine exactly where he was. And Nicholas Alaverdian vanished once again. And who was Louise? I was going to ask you that, did Louise actually exist?

39:59 That's a really good, good question. What do you think? I think No, just based on his obituary something. Clearly he wrote the obituary, and whatever was written to the newspaper too, that five page letter, I believe he wrote that as. Well, We'll be back after a break. David Levitt, a Utah County prosecutor, proved relentless in his pursuit of Nicholas Rossi. Even as the case took on increasingly bizarre twists, Levitt discovered a trobe of rape kits that had never been investigated, and it became his mission to find the suspects and prosecute them. One of the evidence kits linked ala Verdian to a two thousand and eight rape in Utah, the case of the girlfriend who he'd borrowed money from and then raped when she demanded repayment.

40:51 Levitt's office filed charges against Nick and twenty twenty, only to discover soon after that an online obituary claim that he had died of cant Rather than allowing the case to quietly fade, Levitt pressed forward, coordinating with investigators as they worked to determine whether Nick was truly dead or if he had faked his own death. After subpoena ying Nick's financial records and searching his social media records, it looked as if he was still very much alive and had tried to out smart law enforcement. In September twenty twenty, and arrest warrant was issued for Nicholas Rossi and Utah County. It took years, but detectives eventually tracked him down to Ireland in twenty seventeen. He'd bought a one way ticket from New York to Ireland, believing that once he had left the country, he no longer had to register as a sex offender. When Arthur Knight was eventually identified as Nicholas Alaverdian, Levitt's office remained closely involved as the extradition battle unfolded in Scottish courts. For Levitt, the case was about ensuring that serious allegations were hurt in court, and he maintained pressure on the case for years until Nick was ultimately returned to the United States to face trial.

42:02 While fighting extradition, Nick launched a quiet smear campaign against David Levitt. As Levitt mounted a bid for Utah, Attorney General, Alaverdian accused him are participating in ritualized child's sex abuse in cannibalism, which was untrue. Levitt strongly denied the accusations, noting they stemmed from a long debunked case involving allegations made years earlier by a woman whose claims had been investigated multiple times. Independent review and law enforcement investigations found no evidence to support the accusations. And no criminal charges wherever filed. That's kind of a ridiculous accusation, don't you think it is? But you know, sometimes you make these crazy accusations like.

42:45 That and people believe in them. Sticks enough. Yet people want to believe, you know, some of these kind of crazy conspiracy theories, and it could definitely cause some harm to him. And at this point you realize that Nick is he's very smart and very manipulative, and he's really good with his computer and making these outrageous claims against people. As David Levitt campaigned for office, the allegations gained traction, and he ultimately lost the election by a three to one margin. Undeterred and freshly motivated, David Levitt was determined to bring ala Verdian back to the US to face charges. So it sounds like this became pretty personal to Levitt at this point, right, And who can blame him?

43:27 Now we're back where we started. On December thirteenth, twenty twenty one, police arrived at Lean Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow, Scotland to arrest the man they believed had been on the run for four years. The man who called himself Arthur Knight, had only recently emerged from a COVID induced coma. After a year's long search, investigators tracked him to Scotland through digital records, including activity linked to his iCloud account that placed him in Glasgow. The man who had spent years carefully concealing his identity and movements had grown less cautious during his illness. Typically meticulous about covering his tracks, he left behind a digital trail that ultimately allowed investigators to pinpoint his location, ringing an end to years of uncertainty about his whereabouts. An intrapol alert was issued for Nicholas Alaverdian Arthur Knight appeared frail but not gaunt. He was heavy set, his skin mottled and pale, with a thick salt and pepper beard that framed his face. Confined to a wheelchair and dependent on supplemental oxygen, he wore a nasal canula and moved slowly as if he were underwater, often appearing winded after speaking. His voice was weak and strained the lingering effects of his bout with COVID. Behind his round glasses, his eyes appeared small and watchful, giving him a guarded, wary expression despite his weakened condition. He erupted in anger when asked if he was Nicholas Alaverdian, his subdued demeanor giving way to sudden hostility and defiance.

44:57 Arthur claimed to be an Irish orphan and an insisted he had never set foot in the United States, but he could not produce a birth certificate or a reliable identification, and the inconsistencies in his story only deep in investigator's suspicions. Police arrested him in his hospital room that day. Investigators were sure of his identity despite his loud protestations. Authorities confirmed that his distinctive tattoos and fingerprints matched those of Nicholas Alaverdian, establishing that he was alive and had attempted to fake his own death. Investigators also learned that he had tried to escape the hospital by arranging for a private ambulance. Following his arrest, Alavertian remained in the hospital under police guard, handcuffed hose bed while he recovered, with officers stationed nearby. Nick proved to be a difficult patient.

45:49 Hospital staff described him as rude, angry, and demanding. He reportedly flew into a rage when staff suggested that he might not need supplemental oxygen or could be using his legs. His behavior escalated to the point that he was charged and later convicted of behaving in a threatening or abusive manner towards hospital staff during his stay. When he was finally discharged in January twenty twenty two, he was formally taken into custody and transferred to a prison in Edinburgh to await extradition hearings. While in police custody, his oxygen tank and mask were gone once a doctor decided they weren't necessary. Later that month, he was granted bail but required to wear an ankle monitor. This is all a little confusing, Are you following?

46:34 I think so. I mean, obviously there's a lot of different names here that he's using, but it's the same guy. The one thing I'm unclear on, and maybe this will become clear, is whether the COVID really affected him, Like does he remember who he was? Does he know what he has done? Or is he truly you know, was he in a coma and so. You're thinking that he could have amnesia and he doesn't know. Who he is, So it just sort of sounds like he's he's. Able to say like pinpointed like, oh, I was an orphan and we're going to talk up more about his growing up now. Arthur Knight, the man authorities believed to be Nicholas Alaverdian, claimed that he was born on November twenty second, nineteen eighty six, in Ireland, and I think Nicholas Alaverdian was born in nineteen eighty seven. He had no birth certificate, and although he said he possessed a driver's license, he never produced it. According to Arthur Knight, he never knew his parents and grew up in an orphanage where he was neglected and mistreated. He said that at age fourteen, he and several other boys escaped the orphanage and fled to London, where they survived on the streets selling books. I'm surprised that he didn't use the name Oliver Twist. Over time, he claimed he had lost contact with the other boys, saying they had succumbed to life on the streets. Throughout he remained adamant that he'd never set foot in the United States and was not Nicholas Alaverdian or Nicholas Rossi or any of the other aliases that he had used throughout the years.

48:01 I'm actually really curious what his accent sounded like, because if he's saying he grew up in Ireland, like he would have had to have an accent SOLDI and I. Want to include a clip, but they were all from Dateline and were trying to not steal Dateline's clips. Highly suggest going and listening to that. After his arrest in Glasgow, Knight actively sought media attention, frequently speaking with journalists while emphatically insisting that he was not Nicholas Alaverdian. He often appeared in a wheelchair, wearing an oxygen mask covering most of his face and speaking in this weak, strained voice. He was still recovering from a severe case of COVID nineteen. He appeared in frail health, struggling at times to breathe and speak in between fits of coughing. His loyal wife Miranda always by his side. So I think five years have passed since people had really seen this guy in the United States who they're claim, and he's gained a lot of weight. He has like salt and pepper here now he's thick beard, and he always has this mask on his face, and the mask it's like a it's not like it's a big mask and it has like it's like an oxygen bag and it's attached to the oxygen tank. So he's using this recovery from COVID nineteen, you know, as part.

49:14 Of this, say disguise's appearance. Yeah. Jane McSorley is an investigative journalist with the BBC and the creator of the podcast I'm Not Nicholas. After news broke about the mysterious man claiming to be Arthur Knight and the possibility of an international case of mistaken identity, she spent hours interviewing him and his wife, Miranda, trying to untangle the truth behind his identity. Arthur and Miranda invited her to their tiny flat for dinner. She found them to be forthcoming and gracious hosts, but when she questioned Arthur about his childhood, he was foggy on key details. He attributed his hazy memory to his poor health and explained that he suffered from seizures which affected his recall. Jane was aware Thatnicholas Alaverdian had distinctive tattoos, including a mythological titan Atlas holding up the heavens, an anchor, a classic Irish Clata design on his forearm and the red, black and white coat of arms of Brown University on his shoulder. She was nervous because she knew as a journalist that she had to ask Arthur to roll up his sleeves so she could examine his arms for what would prove his identity as Nicholas Alaverdian. Journalists had asked before, and Arthur had refused, saying he was too physically exhausted or that it was a ridiculous request. But when Jane asked, Arthur gladly rolled up his sleeves to his elbows and showed her his arms.

50:42 She was gobsmacked that they were completely free of tattoos. She found herself falling under his spell. Arthur was passionate, and his story, at least on the surface, seemed plausible. Jane began to wonder if he might actually be telling the truth. Could he be a twin? What was going on? After all, tattoos don't just disappear overnight. His bail was revoked in June twenty twenty two after authorities raised concerns about his behavior and the risk that he might attempt to flee, and he was taken back into custody to await extradition. He proved to be a difficult prisoner for both staff and other inmates. Arthur reportedly screamed and shouted through the night, disrupting the unit and preventing others from sleeping.

51:29 He frequently complained about his treatment and medical care, insisting he required full time assistance. At one point, despite claiming he could not use his legs, he kicked a guard with enough force to cause serious injury. When frustrated, he would sometimes throw himself from his wheelchair. He also accused guards of being pedophiles, further escalating tensions. By the time he was finally set to be extradited, other prisoners reportedly taunted him, singing leaving on a jet plane as he was being taken away. On August second, twenty twenty three, Nicholas Alaverdian was ruled eligible for extradition by a court in Edinburgh, Scotland, after the judge determined that Arthur Knight was Nicholas Alaverdian, the fugitive wanted in the United States.

52:17 The judge said that Nick was quote as dishonest and deceitful as he is evasive and manipulative One of. The craziest things about this case, in my opinion, is that anyone gave any credence at all to his claims that he was not Nicholas Alaverdian because his fingerprints matched. Sure, his appearance was a little different, right, he was able to do the accent. I am curious about the tattoos though, but yeah, the fingerprints would pretty much tell the story, right. Yeah. He did his best to delay the process, firing multiple attorneys and generally being very difficult. During the proceedings, Nicholas Alavertian repeatedly interrupted the court, argued about his identity, and complained about his treatment and health. At one point, he spoke over the judge and raised his voice while insisting he was not the man wanted by US authorities. The judge warned him about his conduct and instructed him to allow the proceedings to continue. Months later, after exhausting the appeals process, on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty four, Ali Verdian was physically extradited and returned to Utah, where he was taken to Salt Lake City to face charges. On January fifth, twenty twenty four, Nick faced a Utah judge for the first time, he requested to the judge that he and everyone else address him as Arthur Knight. The judge refused. He was offered a plea deal, but rejected it.

53:43 For months, nick had appeared in court in a wheelchair, breathing through an oxygen mask and insisting he was too sick to stand, but at one point he seemed to forget his health problems as he rose from his wheelchair to address the judge, an unexpected moment that only deepened the skepticism about just how sick he really was. On October sixteenth, twenty twenty four, while requesting bail, Nicholas finally acknowledged the judge I was born with a name Nicholas Alaverdian, though he continued speaking in his unusual accent. He claimed he had left the country and changed his name after Rhode Island politicians sent him death threats and retaliation for his efforts to reform the state's child welfare system.

54:27 He also insisted on representing himself during preliminary proceedings, despite the judge warning that doing so was a bad idea. Alavertian claimed that he had studied law in England and was capable of defending himself every judge's favorite. Yeah, especially this guy. He said that David Levitt had manipulated the fingerprint results, and someone had tattooed his arms while he was in a medically induced coma. It's so long tattooed the exact tattoos that Nicholas Alverdian had on this guy's arms. You don't believe that he is a victim. Maybe his Prosecutors sought to introduce testimony from as many as nine additional women who allegedly had been assaulted by him, and investigators believed there were likely more who never came forward. However, the judge ruled that their testimony would be prejudicial and excluded it from both trials. Nearly seventeen years after the assaults, the victims finally took the stand. Their testimony was emotional and at times difficult, but it marked a long awaited step towards accountability. Prosecutors argued that ala Verdian's actions changing his name, leaving the country, adopting a new identity, and even faking his death demonstrated consciousness of guilt. During her victim impact statement, one woman described how the assault altered the course of her life. Quote in two thousand and eight, I began a relationship with mister Rossi. He became controlling verbally and emotionally. Eventually he stole money from me. I was pressured to come over to the apartment and resolve the money issue. He forced himself on me. I've felt shame, fear, guilt, confusion.

56:04 It stole who I was. I used to be open, trusting, and joyful. Now I mistrust instinctively. She spoke about the ripple effects of the assault, including the damage to her relationship with her father, who blamed her for what happened. Quote A man who should have been protecting me, but instead used the situation to punish, shame and control me more harshly than before. His recriminations and emotional cruelty retraumatized me, compounding my suffering. She's talking about her dad there. That's really disturbing. Yeah, that is he was not supported at all. Bad. When the judge asked if he wished to speak, Alaverdian responded briefly, I will be incredibly terse. I'm not guilty of this. These women are lying. In a due course, we will launch an appeal. Thank you. His attorney then asked for a leniency, citing Alavertian's difficult childhood and the time that he had already spent in custody.

56:59 I thought he represented himself a good catch. He did in the beginning, like during the preliminary hearings, and then he took on a child. At both trials, Nicholas Alivertian was found guilty of first degree felony rape and sentenced to five years to life in prison. The judge ordered that the sentences would be served consecutively, meaning that he faces a minimum of ten years behind bars. After ten years, he'll go in front of a parole board. He was never prosecuted on the fraud charges, remember the two hundred thousand dollars of loans, and so I'm wondering if maybe they are saving that for later, and if he comes before the parole board, that they would charge him with those charges and he would be forced to stand prison life.

57:39 It sounds like there are a lot of other women that they could go after him for other sexual assault charges as well if they wanted to. I know it varies from state to state, but the statute of limitations probably would apply in some of those. Good point the person that I'm most curious. Well, I shouldn't say most curious, but I'm super curious about Miranda. We don't know a lot about Miranda. But Miranda Knight was born in South Bristol, England, in nineteen eighty, making her about seven years older than Nicholas Alavertian. Friends from her earlier years described her as bright, cheerful and creative, with a particular talent for art and interior design, which she studied in college. Miranda first met Arthur Knight in twenty eleven at a London art museum. The time, they did not immediately begin a romantic relationship. In fact, in twenty twelve, Nicholas Alaverti and married his first wife, and it wasn't until years later that he and Miranda reconnected and began dating. Their relationship eventually deepened, and the couple married in February twenty twenty. So one of the questions in this case is did she know that he was really Nicholas Alaverdian And this seems to suggest that she must have if she met him in twenty eleven, unless he baked his identity to her. So, following their marriage, Miranda became a devoted supporter of Nix, standing by him even as questions about his identity and past began to surface.

58:58 She publicly stated that she would always stand by him and describe him as a loving husband, and claimed that he was not at all abusive to her. She said that without him she feels lonely and misses him. Those who knew her described her is deeply committed to her husband, even as controversy surrounding him grew. After their marriage, Miranda became increasingly tied to his legal battles and claims about his identity. She was confident that it was a case of mistaken identity and her husband is not Nicholas ala Verdian. I had you look up a picture of Miranda, because I think we look a little alike in the way that all the redheads look alike. No, it's definitely it. I would say a little bit of a resemblance between you and Miranda. It makes me sad because I think that she is a really good person that she got involved with him, And I guess you could argue whether she's a victim in this.

59:47 Or not, And well, it seems like maybe she is refusing to believe what is clear to the rest of us. Which I you know in yourwer. Is that just publicly like I feel like privately she must have known because he must have been walking around because he's clearly not paralyzed. Yeah, yeah, I would think that she would have to know. Do you remember the prosecutor, David Levitt? Of course ironically he bought a Scottish castle and is retired in Scotland. Oh wow, yeah, it's a really full castle. By the way. Well, it's nice not to have a rest in peace segment at the end, I did want to talk about the victims in this case. Yeah, we want to recognize the brave women who went to law enforcement to report sexual assault. Reporting takes tremendous courage. Survivors often carry the emotional, psychological, and sometimes physical impact for the rest of their lives.

1:00:36 Coming forward can mean reliving their trauma, facing skepticism, and navigating a highly invasive and exhausting process. Gathering forensic evidence can take hours and often require survivors to recount what happened. While injuries are documented and evidence is collected, sometimes just hours after experiencing the trauma, many survivors choose not to report, and that decision is understandable because the process is invasive, emotionally exhausting, and offers no guarantee of accountability, while also risking scrutiny of their actions and choices and even their reputation. Sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes. Out of every one thousand sexual assaults, about three hundred ten are reported to police. Of those, only fifty result in arrest, twenty eight lead to felony conviction, and only twenty five result in incarceration. These numbers highlight not only how difficult it is to come forward, but how rare it is for survivors to see accountability through the justice system. If you are someone you know has experienced sexual assault, help is available in the United States. You can contact the RAIN RAI n N National Sexual Assault Hotline at eight hundred sixty five six HOPE, or visit rain dot org to chat confidentially with a trained advocate believe the survivors.

1:01:57 Well, that was very well said, and I'm glad you said that, because I was thinking through this case that yeah, it's nice for a change not to have a murder victim. But in all the women you talked about, all the victims, and I'm sure there are many more that we don't know about. It really occurred to me how much this impacted their lives, especially with some of the examples you talked about with like legal fees and just you know, years of having to relive all this trauma and everything. It's just it's so sad and heartbreaking, and it really is frustrating that so many of these assaults end up unreported. But like you said, it's very understandable why. I mean, survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse carry that pain with them for the rest of their life, no matter how much therapy you have, and you don't think you can ever trust anyone completely after you have been through those things. So you know, while there's not, you know, a death in this case, there still certainly are victims. And this is a very intriguing case. It's very alluring.

1:02:57 And yeah, anytime you have a case where someone is changing their identity, faking their death, those kind of cases are very you know, they are very interesting to care about. And it is easy to lose the victims in that case, So yeah, I wanted to make sure we mentioned them. So remember when Jane McSorley, the journalist, had him roll up. His sleeves I've been waiting to get answer, to get in there. Honestly, I have no idea. I mean, I don't know where his tattoos were. And you said he only rolled his sleeves up to like his elbows exactly. Yeah, he, I guess had started the removal process. I'm not sure when and where. I think in the United States. Actually, one of his wives said that when they were married that he had started the procedure to have them removed.

1:03:39 So I think the ones on his forearms were propaitive, but not the ones higher up on his arms. So that's why he was willing to roll up his sleeves that far. But I guess we'll talk about this in a little bit at the end segment. But the process of removing tattoos, it's progressed quite a bit. Oh really, Yeah, I think that journalists should have been made a little bit more skeptical. I don't know what she ended up concluding. She wasn't the only one. I think a lot of because if you listen to him, you know he sounds he looks so much different. He looks the same but different. Yeah, you should google his accent. His accent must have sounded authentic. To people. I guess right. Ish, but there's so many accents in Great Britain and Ireland, and you know, and you can tell some people are so educated in the accents that they can tell which neighborhood you're right from. So yeah, I'm not really sure why.

1:04:31 I don't think I would have bought it. But actually I'm lying because when I first heard this case, Dateline did a really great job doing this case, probably the best Dateline research I've ever heard. You know how Dateline episodes can kind of manipulate the case and the information. Yeah, and I felt like they did a really good job. There's two episodes. One is from season thirty one, episode twenty eight, called The Dead Man Talking. The other is season thirty three, episode ten, The Man Many Faces. Both are really interesting. I don't think I could find the video. I had to listen to the podcast, but I had heard them a couple of years ago. When I first heard the story, I was like, Oh, that's weird. Why would he have a case of mistaken identity? So yeah, I'm a little naive sometimes. Another thing that I find striking about this case is obviously he's a bright guy, and he did do some good he did have some bills passed when he was lobbying for child welfare. It just he could have been very successful. He could have gone to law school. He could have made a real difference.

1:05:35 But another person that just couldn't. Yeah, we see that over and over again, people who obviously have something going for them, they have some level of intelligence, but they just can't become productive citizens. Well, that is the crazy mixed up case of Nicholas ala Verdian, Nicholas Rossi, and Arthur Knight. Someday he will probably be out of prison. That is kind of scary to think about. Yeah, he's still. A relatively young man. I think, well, yeah, he's thirty nine. I believe I don't have any information about him in prison. I'm sure he's difficult, like when he was before he was extradited back to the United States. You know, we know that he was really difficult. I would love to know if he is still using a wheelchair in prison.

1:06:18 I would imagine that would be dangerous first of all, but just it wouldn't. Yeah, it seems like a difficult person. No matter where he is, he is a very difficult person. You can tell, like hospitals and courts and relationships in prison. Yeah, and Marianda too. I haven't been able to find out what she's up to, but hopefully she has found peace and she's happy in her life without him. Even though she said that they were not in an abusive relationship, I'm sure he was. That was. It's just who he is. It's just a very difficult person. Yeah, before we go, I wanted to talk about tattoos for a minute between us.

1:06:58 How many tattoos do we have? We have zero. I'm not opposed to tattoos. I think they're great. I think it's a great form of self expression. I just feel like it's a big commitment. Like, I know, you gotta whatever you choose to tattoo on your body, Like you got to be really committed to it, and I'm just not that committed. I'm so lame. I think there are some really beautiful tattoos. Yeah. Again, I'm not opposed to them. I just haven't done it. I thought of maybe getting like all of our initials and birthdays like on my wrist or something like. I feel like that's a good identifier, but oh, you want to do that too, No. That would be the closest, you know thing I would think to do if I was going to get a tattoo, it would be about our family and the people that we love and things like that.

1:07:41 But I used to always tell our kids that you had a tattoo of a hamburger on your butt. Do you remember that when they were a little Yeah, but they don't. Well, I think when they were little they kind of did catch them. In the mirror trying to look at it. No, no, no, you have oh that eye, not them. I miss that. We have a great listener named Courtney who is a tattoo artist, and I reached out to her and I asked her a few questions about tattoos, like tattoo removal, how good it is Courtney's fabulaus. She sent us all those stickers. Remember we got all those great stickers. She works at Higher Ground Tattoo in Bryson City, North Carolina. If you're looking for a tattoo, she's really busy. I think she has a lot of great followers. She seems to really love her work. You know, it's a form of selfish expression for them too. And I know every tattoo artist has their own, you know style. She told me a couple of funny stories, one with if you are going to get a certain body part tattooed, consider the tattoo artists having to see like your hairy parts in their face.

1:08:50 Maybe you could shave. Your hairy part before you go to the tattoo artist. And you should also like show them like an exact picture of what you want. Because she said that even when she was younger, she went to get a tattoo and she asked for like a fairy, and they gave her the bride of Frankenstein. Oh so oh boy, But you know she has she's a tattoo artist. So I think it can be really a funny story if you get like one of my favorite subreddits is shitty tattoo. I was gonna say, I can't remember which what the name of it is, but I follow that subrend. Yeah, and a lot of times it's just if you have multiple especially if you have multiple tattoos, I think it can just be kind of a funny story. I want to talk about removal. Really quick tattoo removal is possible, but it's rarely quick or perfect, and some tattoos can never be fully erased. Because inks seeks deep sits deep in the dermis. Laser removal breaks it into smaller particles that the body clears over time. This typically requires multiple treatments, often six to twelve sessions based weeks apart, meaning the process can take a year or more with no guarantee of complete removal. Black ink is usually the easiest to remove, while lighter colors like green, blue, yellow, or white are much more difficult. Larger, professionally done tattoos are also harder to eliminate, and even after extensive treatment, faint, faint outlines, lingering color, or skin texture change changes often remain. In short, large, distinctive tattoos rarely disappear without a trace. How many US adults do you think have tattoos?

1:10:17 Like? What percentage of US adults or maybe twenty percent? Thirty two percent? Oh wow, that's a little and worldwide it's thirty six percent. Who do you think it's more tattoos? Men or women? I'm going to say women. Yep, you're right. Thirty eight percent of women and twenty seven percent of men, and about twenty four percent of Americans report some regret with their tattoos. Countries with the highest prevalence include Italy with forty eight percent Sweden forty seven percent, Spain forty two percent, and the United Kingdom at forty percent. This must be an I don't know if it's a newer statistic or an older statistic, but it has the United States at forty six percent, and I just said it was thirty two percent, So I guess I should have done done a careful job with that.

1:10:59 But anyway, I hope you enjoyed that interesting. Well, the what you went through about how difficult it is to remove tattoos just reaffirms my point about not getting a tattoo unless you're really sure of what you want, right. Oh yeah, it would be so bad to regret it. I have some funny tattoo mistakes that people have made. You've probably seen this one of a guy who got he wanted a tattoo that said no regrets and it says no regard. Oh yes, that's that One's pretty famous. And he said he doesn't regret it. That it's it don't even better. I mean it is, it is funny. One woman got her boyfriend's name tattooed on her ribcage after three months of dating, which solid decision. They broke up two weeks later. She turned his name into a feather, then a bird, and then black shading. A guy wanted a carpei dim tattoo, and he got what he got says carpe diem d I u M, which basically means nothing.

1:11:54 He says, I should have seized a dictionary first. Someone got a tattoo of their dog ended up looking like half wolf, half raccoon, and slightly human, but they still loved it. Someone wanted strength in Chinese characters. They later found out it actually said noodle soup. I think the character. I think that people stick to your unless you don't you know the language. Someone allegedly asked for a live love laugh and the tattoo artist accidentally accidentally wrote live laugh loaf, which I don't believe flof like bread loaf, which I kind of don't believe that one. So yeah, I have a funny story actually about my grandpa. I don't know if I've ever told you this. I loved my grandpa so much. He had a tattoo like a huge heart on his on his arm, and like a scroll.

1:12:45 The heart was blacked in at one point. It had my grandmother's name in it, and I guess he used to always tell her that, you know, whenever they thought he'd like, someday, I'm going to get this blacked in, and he did. He did, and they divorced. Oh yeah, but yeah, my grandpa was like probably one of the original you know a lot of people get their tattoos blacked out and yeah, wow. So I was thinking that you and I should we be able to do this live We could go get Love Mary Killed. Tattoos live stream or we've only been doing this for three and a half years. It's not quite enough of a commitment yet for me to get Love Mary to kill us. Speaking of Love Mary Kill. It's at transition right.

1:13:26 We passed two hundred episodes actually a while ago. We're really bad at celebrating our stone milestones, but that's a pretty big milestone for a podcast, and we're coming up on a pretty big milestone for downloads. And do you want to say it or no? Sure? Three million? Three million, yeah, which is like some people get that in a day, but not really, I mean only like, but we're really proud and we're so grateful for all of your support. You sure are. And another big thank you to Shan for the snack and Courtney for your help and the tattoos off you as are just the best. We love you so much and your support just means the world to us. Well, you've wasted another perfectly good hour listening to Love Mary Kill.

1:14:09 Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social media, YouTube, and TikTok, and please consider supporting us on patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill. For five dollars a month, you get our gratitude, a monthly bonus episode exactly all of those great things until next time. Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1:15:01 The companion, the att