Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka (The Ken and Barbie killers) - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, welcome back. How are you. I'm doing great, You're doing great. Great, So we've I don't think we've ever done it like this before, but we are recording part two of this episode, and we did part one like hours earlier. Usually we just go right back to back and do it all at once. But I wasn't sure I had the energy, and I'm still not sure I had the energy have the energy. So I'm just gonna have you read it.

0:53 It's all put it out here for you. Would you mind? I'm pretty sure after how horrible episode one is, no one's gonna come back to listen to episode too. I don't know about that. We have really dedicated listeners. Well, I think they they think that we are discerning and won't do such horrible crimes either. All bad, I mean, but this one is, this one particularly got to me. Well, some people are just like they just seem like they're evil, like they have no redeeming qualities at all. And Paul Bernardo seems to me, Harla, maybe not quite as bad to talk about it at the end. What you think at the end, because I I'm not sure what I think. Yeah, I don't know, And I think that's a lot of people are really conflicted, not conflicted.

1:38 I'm conflicted and I don't know if everyone is. Yeah, yeah, well we'll have that. We'll have that discussion at the end. Well, what else is going on? Do you have anything for us? Well, I you know, I do. I love Canada and still love Canada. Yeah, it's a great country and I spent a lot of time there when I was younger, both both because of the drinking age of their is nineteen and when you to be a nineteen year old in the Detroit area, you go there a lot. I think I've mentioned that before. But I also I've been camping there a lot. We've been camping there, We've went gone to Toronto and spent time there. We need to go back. It's been a long time since we've been there, for sure. So anyway, I found some fun facts about Canada. Fun facts. I'm having to day that they are fun facts. This is courtesy of a website called the Boutique Adventure dot Com. Okay, all right, so I'm gonna read. I won't read all these there's a lot. But Canada is home to the longest street in the world. Young Street in Ontario runs almost twelve hundred miles. Oh, we were there. Canada has one hundred and twenty five thousand miles of coastline, the longest coastline in the world. It would take four and a half years to walk the length of Canada's coastline, and it borders three different oceans, Pacific, Atlanta, and the York. You do some only a big Canada fan. I am here, canuck. I didn't know this. The United States has invaded Canada twice. I did not know that. Dare we do that? Seventeen seventy five and eighteen twelve, and we lost both times.

3:07 That's kind of mean. You know, this was back in the day. Are slightly more passive than America. I think if we were to invade Canada now, we would It wouldn't be that difficult. I don't know. I think Canada isn't is a little more aggressive than they used to be. Actually recently, and I might have even mentioned of the podcast. I think Americans were voted friendlier than Canadians, which what is kind of shocked. I'm shocked by that. It's probably just some one off poll that I read. Yeah, so appropriately. The name Canada came about through a polite misunderstanding. Jacques Cartier, and explorer from France, met with local natives who invited them him to visit their kannata, which is the local word for village. He and his group thought that Kannada or Canada was the name of the entire country.

3:55 M Is that true? I'm sure these are altr The boutique Adventure would not lie to us. Oh, this is the weirdest one. This is really bizarre. If you visit Dawson City in the Yukon, you could become a member of the sour Toe Cocktail Club. A sour toe cocktail is any drink with a real human toe in the bottom. I'm going to pass on that. The rules are that you can have any drink you want and consume it at any pace, but your mouth must touch the toe. The toes have generally been donated by people who have suffered from frostbite. That's well, that is a really weird one. Canada is the second largest country in the world by total area. Yeah, it's it's kind of bigger than I think most people that I imagine. All right, gonna give you one more and then we should wrap it up. Oh, okay, let me find a good one. Then. Oh, Canada eats more donuts than any other country in the world. We are going to talk about Tim Horton's just for a millisecond in my episode, so we can circle back to Tim Horton's. And yeah, they also have they have more doughnut shops per capita than any other country in the world as well, so that was part of the same same fact. So ah, right, So should we have a snare? Stea's a little tired today, that's okay, Well, we gotta we have to have our ho hoes. We talked about it in the last episode. We

5:25 had twinkies, and this one we're having ho hoes. And we're doing that because the Great British Baking Show Paul and Prue did a little taste they tried them. So yeah, I actually just brushed my teeth. I really, I don't know if I've ever had hoes, to be honest, I maybe I'm sure I had a hoe before. You have your little noise right there, okay, a little delayed spot. Okay, yeah, you've definitely had a hoe before. Probably it's the same thing as a Swiss roll in Little debbut world. Well, it's kind of confusing too, because the Coasts has the cupcakes. Well, there's the d kingdoms. Yeah, there's the whole and they're all basically the same thing. Yeah, pretty much different shapes, all right. I think my favorite is the cupcake. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna open this will be your back, all right? How do you feel about that? Hoo? I'm still picking up little pieces of chocolate off my MacBook here. It's really I don't remember it being so crumbly. I know, I like the hoho itself, but the waxy chocolate coating on the outside just crumbles all over the place. That's a good description because it is really waxy. Yeah. I didn't love that part of it, but overall I think it was good. I don't know if I like it better than the Twinkies, but I definitely like it better than the twinkie. Yeah.

6:39 Yeah, and Prue, I believe she preferred the Twinkies. She actually kind of liked the twinkie and she didn't like she has a very discerning palette, like myself. It's like yourself. Well, and we didn't mention this before, but she said the twinkie has a slight, very slight lemon taste. Remember that, I don't. I don't give that, maybe just a smidge. Maybe maybe they're different. And I don't know if she tasted in the UK or here, but maybe it's more lemony than they could be. So which you preferred the twinkie just barely? They're they're both pretty good. I think it's ridiculous that we're actually tasting host of snacks and like talking about it like anyone. I don't care. Maybe I don't know again procrastinating. Yeah, Part two is Part one is probably a little rougher than part two.

7:30 Part two is more about the judicial system. But do you want to do a little recap. We're in trouble, guys were trouble. I can try to do a recap. You're probably gonna miss some of the details. But well, to be I should mention too that I did a like I read the six hundred page book. We'll talk about the book at the end. Two I have some thoughts about that, and I think I have thirteen sources. Uh this this hate. There's so many books on this, and there's so many document There's a lot out there, and so I obviously couldn't digest all of it. Yeah, so I apologize if I missed anything, but I did I did my best. Yeah, this is one of those cases.

8:13 I'm sure you could research for a year and yeah, this is probably still a twelve part episode. Yeah, yeah for sure. Okay, well here's my recap. So, uh, Carla Homolka and Paul Bernardo. Paul was born in nineteen sixty four. Carlo was six years younger than him. Uh, Carlo was kind of a little bit wild, Like her fashion sense was a little bit wild. She liked to dye her hair different colors, and she liked to wear her what was it long underwear under shorts or something like that. They're like men's boxer shorts. Yeah, that's very, very strange. But she just seemed like a little bit of a rebel in terms of fashion. Paul was came from a family that was pretty messed up.

8:56 His uh what who he thought was his dad, which turned out to actually not be his real father. Was a real asshole. Sounded like when he was disgusting, he was disgusting. Yeah, he molested Paul's sister in front of the family and just horrible things, alcoholic. Yeah, just sounded a very very dysfunctional family. But Paul was very good looking, very confident, good at talking, very slick, and so he had a lot of He got a lot of girls, and he really seemed to like that. His two goals in life were really money and girls, especially like young girls. He his goal was to you know, take girls virginity as much as he could. He had kind of an obsession with younger girls. And yeah, just kind of a a not a good guy, one of the worst.

9:46 Yeah, horrible, horrible guy. But even like when he was younger, he was just seemed like he was very cocky, just self absorbed and really just was gonna do what he was going to do and definitely didn't really care about anyone else. He and Carla met when Carla was seventeen. They met at a Howard Johnson's. Carla was there on a trip for her work at the veterinary Clinic or She first worked at the pet store and then she later worked at the vet gotcha. But they met and it was love at first sight. They were having sex within an hour of meeting, which is crazy, and then kind of fast forward, their relationship went really quickly. Carlo was head over heels and love. Paul was very controlling. He would kind of tell her how to dress, and she started losing weight even though she really didn't need to lose weight, and it just sounded like he was very controlling over everything that she did and wanted her to dress a certain way and wear her hair the way he wanted. Appearances were very important to Paul.

10:50 Yeah, and Carla had a younger sister, Tammy, who Paul was kind of obsessed with. She was maybe three or four years younger than Carla, and Paul didn't want He hated the thought of anyone else taking her virginity, and right before Tammy turned sixteen at Christmas time, he and Carla basically they killed her. I mean they raped her and killed her and it was super horrible. Carla got drugs from the clinics she worked at, or the pet store and used those, but it wasn't it was ruled an accident. Nobody the investigation wasn't super though it sounds like or they didn't follow through as much as they probably it's Tammy's I don't know if they purposely killed her or not.

11:41 It might have been. Paul definitely didn't intend to kill Tammy, but it's questionable as to whether right Carla could have intended to kill her, and Carla it was. She basically said that this was like her gift to Paul, right her Christmas sister's virginity was just disgusting. There was so Paul lived in a town called Scarborough, and I think I kind of missed this because it happened before Tammy was killed, But there was a Scarborough rapist who raped at least fourteen girls and women over the course of four years. Paul did actually give his DNA in that case, but the DNA lab was so backed up that they never really got to it. I feel like you're giving the whole episode here. There was a sketch artist that did a sketch that looked exactly like Paul, and a lot of Paul's friends were like, Paul, this is you, and but he never he never got caught for that at that time at least, and then starting like around the time of Paul and Carla's wedding in June of nineteen ninety one, some other girls started turning up, you know, their bodies started turning up. There was a girl, Leslie, who was and she was fourteen. Yeah, and her body was dismembered and put into concrete and put into a lake, which is, yeah, horrible. I didn't mention this on the first episode, but someone actually said, well, you know, whoever dumped Leslie's body in the lake didn't know that in the summertime, the lake always goes down several inches, so

13:13 they were like a local would have known not to put her body in the water. Yeah, because it might not have been discovered. But I don't think they got the blocks. I even hate talking about like visualizing this, but they weren't as deep into the water as they could have been. Yeah, that makes sense. And then there was another girl, Kristen French, who was fifteen, who was killed, and I'm sure that I think there was another two, but I don't. I didn't write that down there. Well, so far we have we have Tammy and Leslie and Kristen. Okay, I did get them all, and you did. You did a fabulous job. And that's that's where we left off. One of the girl's disappearances happened before the wedding, and the other happened after their wedding. All right, I guess I can't procrastinate anymore. No, we don't have anything else to talk about. The weather? What was rainy the first half of our episode? And now let's could talk about Casey caseym again. I did, by the way, I pulled that clip that you mentioned in the last episode, and I put it in there because I thought it's such a funny clip.

14:16 I haven't heard it a long time, but I literally think about that all the time when we have to go from one subject to the next, and it's like, well, we always have to wrap up our episode, and we like try to yeah yeah, so yeah, well thanks for doing that. All right, all right, so see you next time. Oh wait, wait, okay, I have to tell you how us the rest of the story. All right. After the wedding, the newly weds seemed to be struggling. Their lovely house never got entirely furnished, and both Paul and Carla's appearances lack the fashionable clothing they usually bought every season. They were both drinking in excess whenever they went out with friends, the night ended badly. Paul would get too drunk and hit on girls, sometimes kissing them.

14:58 One night, Paul, a seventeen year old, back to the house to have sex while Carlos slept. So when Paul was younger, like as he's aging, I think the girls find him more creepy. I would hope, right, But I think it became like a little harder to get the girls to come back to the house as he got older, and they were just like, oh, you're married and you're old. And she never blamed Paul. She either blamed herself or the other girls. Paul had told her after they were married that he would continue to see other women, and Carla didn't have much to say in the matter, though at that point I think she just cared less too. In September of nineteen ninety one, Kathy, a good friend of Carlo's, finally got the phone call she had been waiting for.

15:41 Carlo sounded upset and asked her if they could meet for lunch. During lunch, Carlo swore Kathy to secrecy and begged her not to tell anyone that they were having lunch together. Carla told Kathy that she was unhappy and Paul was mean, controlling, and verbally abusive to her. He wouldn't let her get her driver's license or go back to school. Kathy knew that Paul was physically abusive to Carlos. She'd witnessed his temper and she'd seen the frequent bruises on Carlo's body. Carly became angry when Kathy asked her if Paul had physically abused her. She adamantly denied it and ended their lunch. The next time she saw Carlos, she acted as if everything was great. In the spring of nineteen ninety two, Paul's best friend Van was working at his father's restaurant when Ontario Provincial Police Constable Rob Haney came in to eat. For months, the thought that Paul could have had something to do with the disappearances of Leslie Mahaffee and Kristen French niggled at the back of his mind. He even thought it was possible that his oldest and best friend could be the Scarborough rapist.

16:44 The rapes had stopped after Paul had left Scarborough, and he'd heard Paul say outrageous things through the years, like wanting to start a virgin farm officer Rob listened carefully as Van told him about his suspicions. He said he'd passed the information along. Eleven days later, on May twelve, two detectives knocked on Paul Bernardo's door. He talked to them for about twenty minutes. He admitted that he had given a DNA sample during the Scarboard Scarborough rapist investigation, but he had never been contacted again. The detectives asked him where he'd been on April sixteenth, the day of Kristin French's disappearance, and he told them that he'd been home working on his rap album. I forgot to mention Paul was into rap music now and he believed he could be a rapper. He had no music training whatsoever, but he bought thousands of dollars of equipment to produce music and burn CDs. His lyrics revolved around misogyny, sexual fantasy, power and domination, and his look also changed at this time. He became a little more punk looking. Yeah, I hope no audio exists of his rapping.

17:48 If it does, I don't want to hear it. So okay, well you can, Yeah, I'll just delete the next clip no, I didn't look for it. No, I didn't. The detectives had a lot of people to interview, and Paul didn't register as a serious, viable suspect in their minds. Carlo struck up an odd friendship with a sixteen year old girl named Jane. Okay, Jane, she's Jane Doe, so we're using the name Jane. Jane and her mom used to come into the pet store where Carlo worked, and they had become friends with her. She would come over and watch movies with Carla and Paul and even spend the night. On one occasion, carl gave her some peach schnaps and in the morning, Jane couldn't remember anything, but she felt horrible. Jane's mother became increasingly uncomfortable with the relationship and tried to limit the time Jane's spent with Carla and Paul.

18:36 A coaches of Jane's had called her mother and told her that Jane had confided in her that Paul touched Jane's breasts. Her mother confronted Paul, he became my rate and kicked her out of the house. Carla and Paul also began spending time with seventeen year old Becky, who had been Tammy's best friend. Becky was still grieving her friend and was comforted by spending time with Carla and Paul. She began spending the night too, and was also given drugs and alcohol. Paul would sleep next to her on the floor and try to kiss and fondle her. Carla told her it was okay that they were she didn't mind at all if they messed around. They even took her on trips to Toronto for weekends, staying in five star hotels and buying her lavish gifts.

19:22 It became Paul's goal to flower these two girls. On December twenty third, nineteen ninety two, two years to the day since Tammy's death, Paul told Becky something that would torment her for years to come. He got into bed with her and told her that he had been Tammy's first lover in the summer before her death. He said he had her bloody underwear to prove it. He then raped Becky, but despite this horrible behavior, she continued to keep on coming over to the Bernardo's house. So I didn't talk about this on the first episode, but there were rumors that Paul had raped Becky I'm sorry. Paul had raped Tammy summer before her death, and I the story.

20:04 Sometimes it's hard to know what the truth is. Because you have Carlo's story and you have Paul's story. There's just no way to know what the truth is. Carlo's appearance began to concern her friends and co workers. She was constantly bruised or injured. She always had an excuse for her injuries, like Buddy the dog had jumped on her. She was too thin, anxious, and joyless. Wendy, one of her co workers, called Dorothy Homoka anonymously to tell her that Carlo was being abused by her husband. Wendy had another friend also called Dorothy and tell her that she needed to get over there. Your daughter is suffering. That night, Dorothy and Carol went to Carla's but no one opened the door. They went to a convenience store and called nine one one. Two police cars and an ambulance arrived at the house, but no one answered the door and the police refused to break the door down.

20:56 The Next day, Dorothy went to the animal clinic and demanded to see Carla. She was shocked and saddened when she saw Carla. She had two very black eyes, her face was grotesquely swollen, and her body was covered in bruises. Dorothy would later recall that she felt like she was going to have a heart attack when she saw her daughter. Now, I was just telling you that I was going to show you a picture, but you said you saw it. Yeah, describe the picture. I mean, I'll post it. Oh, I mean the bruises are just horrible, I think, really, like just really the worst black eyes I've ever seen. Yeah, like they just huge, both eyes or it's horrendous. Carla tried to tell her that she had been in a car accident, but Dorothy wasn't buying it.

21:37 Eventually, Carla admitted that Paul had beaten her with a heavy duty flashlight. Dorothy quickly made a plan. Carlo would go home as usual, but they would pick her up later that evening after Paul had gone out for the night, and Carlo would stay with a friend of her sister, Laurie's, whose husband was a Toronto police officer. They made Carla call the police to file a report against Paul. The police determined that she should go to the hospital. She remained there for three days, recovering and receiving treatment. The emergency room doctor called Carla's injuries the worst case of wife assault he'd ever seen. Carlo was also given a thorough psychological evaluation. And so like these the beating with the black guys had app happened like days before. I can't imagine what it looked like. Yeah, the police took photos of her injuries. Virtually every inch of her body was covered in bruises, and the beating had occurred over a week previously. She also had a lot of scarring from previous injuries.

22:37 After Carlo was released, the Homolkas took her to stay with Dorothy's brother Kelvin and his wife Patty. They lived about an hour away where they thought that Carlo would be safe, and Carlo began to open up about the abuse to her aunt, Patty and how it started quickly after she had been dating Paul. He once pushed her out of a moving car and she fell into the mud. After the beatings came apology gifts and promises it would never happen again, but of course it did. Smells were especially triggering for Paul, and oftentimes he would beat her just because he didn't like what she'd cooked or the way she smelled after work. The beatings had become daily after the wedding, and there were no more apologies. Dorothy took Carla to an attorney to start divorce proceedings. She remained living with her uncle and aunt, hidden from Paul, but Carlo was enjoying her newfound freedom. She went out to bars and became a little wild, meeting men whenever she could, and she quickly acquired a new boyfriend. Meanwhile, Paul was devastated and recorded unhinged cassette tapes for his wife. Here's an excerpt. Do you want to read it?

23:42 My dearest Carla, It's been five days now, God, it seems like a lifetime, kind of like when Tammy died. I realized, now you're never coming back. Fucking kills me. Pal. I wish I just could have been given a second chance to make things right again, to make it all better. I could have, you know, I really could have. I know you did what you had to do, and I don't blame you for it. In fact, it was the best thing you could have done for me. Snapped me out of whatever state I was in, made me realize how much I love you and care for you. How important you are in my life. You are the most special person who ever touched my life, Carla, Yes, even more than Tammy. Here's the problem, car I tried to be larger than life. I really did. But see, I didn't try to be average, like the average guy. I tried to be larger. I tried to be the best thing that there ever was.

24:30 Maybe because I needed love. Maybe I don't know why. I wanted to get Tammy the forest green Porsche. I wanted to have your parents on speed boats. I wanted to take care of you and have this huge house with the four children. I wanted to be greater than anything there was. And when I didn't reach it, I got frustrated and angry, and I took it out on you, the person I love the most. Don't hate me for that, please, just please don't hate me for mom's genetics right the weak side. What a guy? Yeah, what a guy? What a piece of garbage? Huh? I mean garbage is too kind? Yes, for sure. On Tuesday, February nine, twenty twenty three, as I'm reading this, I realized that I met nineteen ninety three. And that's what happens when you write your script at two thirty in the morning, the Metro Toronto police came to Carla's uncle's house to officially interview her. The interview lasted for five hours. It was clear the police were there for more than the Bernardo's domestic violent situation. They asked Carla farr reaching questions about Paul and his sexual preferences, aunt his whereabouts on certain days and times. They didn't ask her any direct questions about the Scarborough rapist, but danced around it. At the end of the interviews, they told Carla that they would be arresting Paul in the coming weeks, but didn't tell her why. After the police left, Carla told her aunt and uncle that Paul was the Scarborough rapist. Paul had told her that he was the rapist on their honeymoon, and I guess

26:00 she was like, like, oh, that's cool, Paul. Carla also told her aunt and uncle that Paul had killed Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French. She admitted that she had been involved, and Paul had made her cut the girl's hair and have sex with both of them while he videotaped it. Paul had warned Carla that he would use the tapes against her if she ever thought of going to the police. She tried looking for the tapes, but she couldn't find them. Before she left the house for the last time, Carla told her aunt that Paul was preparing to abduct another girl to use as a sex slave, and he was going to make Carla kill the girl. This time, the police began surveilling Carla. The manager of the complex for Patti and Kelvin lived confided in them that the police had rented two units. Carla hired an attorney, and in March she checked into the Northwestern General Hospital, where she underwent seven weeks of intensive psychological evaluation. During her hospital stay, Carlo wrote a letter to her family admitting her involvement in Tammy's death. So at this point, she hasn't told the police everything that she knows because she's kind of holding that back, right, But she told their aunt and uncle, right, and I would think they would go to the police. I think there was they probably were formula. It made me contacted an attorney at this point, so I think the attorney was telling the family and we're trying to protect Carla more than but I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty gross. On February seventeenth, nineteen ninety three, Paul Bernardo was arrested

27:33 for the murders of Leslie Mahafe, Christian French, and the rapes of multiple women. The media rushed to cover the story. It was shocking that two of the biggest crimes in Canadian history were committed by the same man, Paul Bernardo. In January, the CFS finally returned the results from the Scarborough rapist samples. They concluded that there were six possible suspects from the saliva test and they were beginning to work on the DNA samples. No rush or anything may take your time. A week later, the test confirmed that Paul Bernardo was the Scarborough rapist. It hurts to think that the CFast if they had been able to do their job in a timely fashion. Doesn't it just break your heart? Does? Review of the case revealed that the police had interviewed Paul in November of nineteen ninety after his ex girlfriend called the police with a tip that she thought he was the rapist. He really should have been caught much sooner. Police decided that they needed to take another look at the death of Tammy Himulka. During Paul's interrogation, more than twenty criminal profilers, psychologist and other law enforcement professionals watched him on closed circuit television. The police told Paul what they knew and implied that Carlo had ratted him out, but Paul steadfastly tonight everything he was accused of. After hours, he finally asked for a lawyer. Carlo was shocked by the media attention Paul's arrest garnered. The coverage was NonStop on TV, radio, and print media. Was literally like the biggest story ever. Pictures of her husband dog in the house were shown on

29:04 TV over and over. It was jarring and stressful for her. This isn't me inserting compassion, She began taking leftover pain killers from her hospital stay and drinking heavily. As the news of Paul's arrest and involvement in such heinous crimes, his friends and acquaintances felt varying degrees of shock, disgust, and guilt that they hadn't come forward earlier to voice their concerns. Paul's father, Ken, had been convicted of sexual crimes and assaults dating back to the nineteen sixties just a week before Paul's arrest. At the first hearing, Paul was charged with forty five sex related crimes, but not yet murder. It was rumored that Paul had an erection during Oh God, He's just a sick, sick, sick man. Marilyn, Paul's mother, who had struggled with her mental health over the years, didn't seem to mind talking to the media, but she was tired of them following her everywhere. She explained that she had been a strange I'm sorry to laugh. This part just makes me laugh. She explained that she had been a strange from Paul since his wedding. He'd been angry at her for requesting an alternate meal instead of the pheasant that was served.

30:11 It caused like a big fight. The police, like I said, had very little evidence connecting Paul to the murders of Leslie and Kristen. They began a thorough critical search of the pink Cape Cod house that Paul and Carla had lived in for two years. They were really hoping to find the videotapes that Carla had told them about. It had been twenty months since the murder of Leslie and ten months since the murder of Kristen, so investigators knew it would be challenging to find any useful evidence in the house. The team entered the house wearing white hazmat suits, hairnets, shoe covers, and air packs borrowed from the fire department. They literally left no stone unturned during the seventy one day search. Seventy one days since Little Cape Cod house. They ripped up carpet, disassembled the stairs, it ripped up the drain systems, scanned the walls for blood and tissue, but they found very little evidence proving the girls had ever been in the house, and the alleged tapes were still missing.

31:08 The search was largely a bust, but a few items were found. A six inch knife was found in the rafters of the garage, a test tube in a drawer that was filled with helcion, which is a sedative, a stun gun, handcuffs, a quilt with a spot of blood that was found to be Leslie's, and a vomit stain on the carpet found to be Christen's. The critical videotapes were not found, much to the grave disappointment of law enforcement. The search warrants had been extended twice and when they expired in April, they wouldn't be renewed again. After the police were done with the search, Paul's lawyer, Ken Murray asked if he could go through the house and collect a few personal items that Paul had requested, and he was granted access to the house. Guess what he found. They found the six tapes and a recessed bathroom lighting fixture. Why isn't it wild? Wild? I mean, I think Paul just knew where they were, and I think Paul was just crossing his fingers the whole time, thinking I hope they don't find him, and they didn't. So did Paul tell his attorney where they were?

32:09 Okay, yeah, no, yeah, attorney didn't just walk in. And I think that the story was like Paul had it written on a little piece of paper and he just slid it to his attorney. And what did the attorney do with these? Well, that's what I'm about to tell you. So he kept the tapes to himself for over a year. He planned to shock the courtroom in the world by playing the tapes at the trial for the first time, which would discredit Carla. Their contents were shocking. The tapes revealed that Carlo was an active and willing participant in the sexual assaults, at times instigating the abuse. And most shocking of all was the rape of Tammy Homolka by both Carla and Paul. The people that viewed the tapes would never be the same. Again, that's I can't imagine. That's horrifying.

32:52 But wouldn't wouldn't the tapes incriminate Paul as much as they incriminated Carlo? So why would his lawyer want to show those Because Carlo she had testified to or well, I guess we haven't really gotten there yet, but she'll testify to it was Paul. You know, Paul did everything, but she was an active participant, all right. So I'm going to go through the timeline really quick because I've given you a lot of dates. So Paul is born in sixty four, Carlo was born in nineteen seventy. Nineteen eighty seven is when the first rapes happened. But then some people actually say that there were probably rapes that happened in nineteen eighty six that weren't credited to the Scarboard rapist.

33:35 And you know, again, we really don't know how many rapes. There's probably a minimum of twenty in nineteen eighty seven. In October of nineteen eighty seven, Carla and Paul matt in Scarborough. In November of nineteen ninety, Paul was investigated by the police for the first time and he gave his DNA sample. They were engaged in December of eighty nine. Tammy died in December of nineteen ninety In January, I haven't I haven't talked about this one yet. So Tammy died in December, and in January, Paul and Tammy pick up a girl and they bring her back to the Homolica residence just a few weeks after Tammy's death. Mom and Dad are there. I think they just took a like a mini trip and they bring this girl back to the house and she is raped in Carlo's bed while Carlo watches, and then they dropped her off in an alley and they refer to her later on as January Girl.

34:34 In February of ninety one, Paul and Carlo move into their own house. In June fifteenth of nineteen ninety one, Leslie went missing. Two weeks later, Leslie's body is found the same day that they're married. In April of nineteen ninety two, Kristen is abducted and then killed three days later, and then her body is found two weeks later on April thirty. If so, then that takes us to January of ninety three. That's when Carla is beaten and she leaves Paul, and then Paul is arrested in February of ninety three. Does that make clear? Yeah, I mean there's a lot of dates. Yeah. Carlo was charged with two counts of manslaughter in May of nineteen ninety three. She appeared before the judge on May eighteenth, who set bail for one hundred and ten thousand dollars with the agreement that she would live with her parents and abstain from drugs and alcohol. Carlo waved her right to a preliminary trial, allowing her case to quickly go to trial on June twenty eighth, which was super quick. Yeah. What happened next is possibly the most controversial decision in the history of Canada's judicial system. There had been whispers for months that Carla had struck a sweet plea deal for her testimony against Paul at his trial. The judge imposed a media blackout during Carl's Carlo's trial to try to keep the details private to or Paul was given a fair trial.

36:01 Both the media and the public were angered with this decision. Everyone was hungry for details of the evidence against Carla. The media blackout didn't pertain to the US, so Canadians tried to get newspapers from cities just across the border, like Detroit and Buffalo. In January, I'm sorry. On July sixth, a verdict was reached. Carlo was found guilty on both counts and sentenced to twelve years twelve years five years for Leslie and Kristen each and an additional years two years for Tammy, which was the result of the plea deal she had struck with the Crown. And when I say the crown, do you know what I mean by that, well, like the government? Yeah yeah.

36:43 In Canada, criminals are prosecuted by the crown, like here we would say the state, but in Canada it is referred to as the jone. Carla's first full parole hearing would be in January nineteen ninety seven, just four years later. The most shocking part of Carlo's plea deal was that she would be given immunity from any further charges relating to Tammy's death. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty shocking. And remember at this point the police really need her testimony because they don't have the tapes, right, So, really, the only evidence they're going to have against Paul, other than a couple of little you know, the blood spot and the vomit, the only is Carlo's testimony. At this point too, they probably believe her word that she was not so much an active participant in the killings, that she was probably more controlled by Paul, because they hadn't seen the tapes yet either, right, exactly.

37:36 Yeah, The judge read the following statement quote from about six months after their meeting, Paul Bernardo commenced a systematic physical and psychological abuse of the accused. According to the report of doctor Aren't, the beatings escalated. He strangled her through knives, at her, hit her with firewood, hit her with his shoes, and finally with a flashlight. He stabbed her with a screwdriver, pulled handfuls of her hair from her, had punched her, kicked her, and raped her. He pushed her down the stairs on one occasion her foot was punctures when she pushed her on to a board with a rusty nail. He systematically made her feel unworthy and caught the contact with her family down end quote. So there were some stipulations and the plea deal allowing the Crown to add additional charges if police discovered that she was lying or had committed perjury.

38:24 The deal also forbade Carlo from giving any public interviews or profiting from the crimes. When Carlo's plea deal was reached, the videotapes hadn't been public. Later, when they were played during Paul's trial, it became obvious that Carlo was a more active and willing to participate participant in the sexual abuse of Tammy, Leslie Kristen and Jane Doe. At times it seems she enjoyed her part in the abuse, and it was very apparent that she had lied about her participation to authorities. Carlo was sent to Kingston's Prince Prison for Women, where she resided in solitary confinement, but allowed a TV in hersell and access to the prison yard one hour a day. While incarcerated, she took college courses in French and sociology. I saw pictures of Carlo from prison, and I mean she was wearing like normal clothes and she looked kind of I mean, she looked pretty happy, So that was kind of crazy. So how they do prison in Canada, I mean, I don't I don't know if it's probably a women's prison, is not a you know, maybe they don't have maximum security women's prisons. So Paul's first attorney, Ken Murray, he was the one who found the tapes, quit the case just before the trial started.

39:35 Paul was unhinged, delusional, and unmanageable. Not surprising, Ken was advised that he needed to turn over the tapes that he had been sitting on for fifteen months. He gave the tapes to John Rosen, Paul's new attorney, and led him to decide what to do with them. And John Rosen did the right thing and he gave the tape tapes to the police. When they see them for the first time, they realized again that Carlo Homolka was complicit and she had played the police badly. The tapes revealed an assault they hadn't known about, the drugging and sexual assault of an unknown girl the police referred to as Jane Don't. I'm sorry Jane Doe, who I told you about. Carla had never told them about her, so the crime wasn't included in her plea deal. Carla had brought Jane to the house and drugged her even before Paul was home. Not surprisingly, Paul didn't enjoy prison. He was taunted, bullied, and assaulted many times by the by the other inmates.

40:29 Can you imagine, like, just like, what would you pay to punch Paul Bernardo in the face. I mean, I would just imagine that people were lined up just punching him, and I yeah. He hated the food and quickly lost twenty five pounds and he was quickly served divorce papers from Carla. Paul Bernardo's trial began in May nineteen ninety five in Toronto, so like two years almost two years later than Carlo's trial. The trial was moved from Saint Catharine's an attempt to shield the small community from any more media attention and give Paul a better chance for a fair trial. The media circus was unprecedented. The case had gained worldwide interest, and hundreds of people gathered daily to try to get into the courtroom. One five hundred people were called for the jury pool. It's a lot of people. I think it went a lot better than they anticipated, though it took a week to see if the jury, consisting of eight men and four women who were not sequestered, do you think that you would have been able to be an impartial jurord during that trial.

41:32 I mean it's hard to say. I don't really remember what I knew about it or what I didn't, But if you were around in that area and looking at the news, I would think it would be hard to be impartial, Yeah, said to them happy and French families. I just I can't imagine like families that have to sit through those trials heart wrenching. They attended the trial. Whenever the videotapes were played, and they were played many times, most of them left the courtroom, but great care was taken in shielding them and the other spectators from seeing the graphic videos by repositioning the screens. But of course it was in their best interest to leave when the grizzly tapes were played. Paul sat emotionless as the tapes were played. The charges against him included two counts of first degree murder, two counts of aggravated sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement, two counts of kidnapping, and one count of performing and on dignity on a human body. I think that they did not try him for the rape charges because I think they thought they had enough. Another media blackout was imposed with a little effect the internet. The Internet. The Internet made it impossible to keep information locked down. Many witnesses were called, Leslie and Kristen's mothers among them, as well as Carla's mom.

42:45 But the witnesses, the witness everyone was waiting for to hear from, was, of course, Carla. People slept in line overnight to see her testify. She testified for nine days about her childhood and family, and she said she had a pretty good childhood, even though her father frequently drank and mildly abused her mother. But she mostly talked about her and Paul and how they had fallen in love so quickly and she'd been his princess until about a year until their relationship when Paul began controlling her and abusing her mentally, physically, and verbally. Carla talked about how Paul became obsessed with Tammy. In the summer of nineteen ninety, she explained that she had stolen from some drugs from the veterinary clinic where where she worked, and the plan was for Carla to drug Tammy so Paul could have sex with her and take her virginity before someone else could. After Tammy's death, Carlo said Paul would force her to pretend to be Tammy during sex. She revealed that both Leslie and Kristen had been sexually assaulted several times before Paul strangled them with an electric cord. Prior her to her death, Leslie had begged for her little to see her little brother again. Poor Debby Mahaffy sobbed throughout Carlo's testimony. I just feel so those parents can't even imagine going through what they went through. Carla talked about how the daily abuse escalated after they had moved out of her parents home.

44:07 Paul frequently kicked her out of bed, and she usually had to sleep on the floor or sometimes in the root cellar. The glaring issue with Carlo's testimony was that on the videotape she appeared to be happy and a willing participant. She explained this a way by saying that Paul had coached her on what to say while they were being taped, and she learned that if she didn't perform well when she was being videotaped, Paul would later beat her. Carla call recalled nightmarish stories of her daily life with Paul. Being beaten and tortured. He would often say to her battle cost of five or ten when he became angry, and then he would later punch her or hit her with his favorite torture device, the flashlight. Any affection between Carla and Paul dissolved, and only abuse and torture remained. Paul still used Carla for sex, but usually anal sex. In January nineteen ninety three, when her parents helped her leave Paul, she looked for the tapes but couldn't find them. At the end of her testimony for the Crown, Carla said, quote prison is not nearly punishment enough for what I've done. The real punishment is having to live with the guilt and the shame for the rest of my life and never being able to make it up. But it's a lot better than living with Paul.

45:14 I have a lot more freedom in prison than I ever did with him, and quote. Next was the Crown's turn to question Carla, and it was a deservedly brutal seven day cross examination. Whenever I hear like a seven day cross examination. I just can't. It's hard to imagine. I get worn out being in a meeting for more than an hour. I get worn out sitting here for two hours. You know, it wasn't public knowledge that Carla would be eligible for unescorted temporary absences as of July sixth, nineteen ninety five, only two days away day parole January sixth, nineteen ninety seven, and full parole on July sixth, nineteen ninety seven. In Canada, I think they have a graduated parole system where you get like a few hours, and then you get a day and then I think it makes sense pretty good at those Canadians. After a testimony was given against Paul, she would be immune from future prosecution. Paul's defense lawyer, John Rosen had one goal to paint Carla as a sex craved lunatic who was complicit in Paul's sexual depravity. He questioned why Carla had never told anyone about the abuse. Rosen claimed that in the summer before Tammy's death, Carla had stolen valume from her job, ground it up, and put it in spaghetti that she made for Tammy so she would pass out and Paul could have sex with her. Carla adamantly denied this.

46:37 So remember when Paul was talking to Becky and he said, I have her underwear, So Carla had never Yeah, so I mean yeah, So I think it's possible that he had had sex with her previous too. I don't know. One story that I read was that he started to have sex with her and she woke up, so he didn't really, Okay, I don't know. We'll never know the truth. Rosen said that Carlo was actually the one who killed lesslie by kneeling on her back while pushing her face into a pillow, and that she was present and helped Paul dismember her and put her in the cement. Carla continued to say that that's a lie or that didn't happen. He also said that Carla killed Kristen with a mallet when Paul was out of the house getting takeout food. A video referred to as the fireside Chat tape was played for the courtroom on that largely destroyed any credibility that Carla had left. She pretended to be Tammy in the tape, and she and Paul had sex. I'm not going to go super into this tape, but I did put a link to it in the show notes, and it's super disturbing. Like Carla pretends to be Tammy. She talks about like I think they start out like outside and they go in like different areas of the house, and she talks about how she really liked seeing Tammy raped and it's really grotesque. But one thing that I took from this tape was like she's like doing different sexual acts to him, and I don't know if he didn't

48:12 have an erection or he wasn't able to climax one of like, And to me, that was kind of telling because it looked like it seemed like it was like a very long time. So I was wondering if that was indicative of some sort of sexual issue he had, Like he can only enjoy sex if someone's being tortured. Yeah. After Carlo's testimony, the judge gave the jury a two week break, so there's summer wouldn't be a total loss, as the judge thought they had at least four more weeks of trial ahead of them. Paul Bernardo took the witness stand on August fifteenth. After the recess. I could not believe he took the witness stand. He talked about his obsession with Tammy and how Carla had broken the blinds in her bedroom so that he could stand outside of her bedroom and watch her. When Tammy was asleep, he would masturbate on her pillow or caught while Carla watched God. Paul delivered his testimony without emotion, talking about the horrible way he had violated so many women it was chilling. He painted Carla as a desperate, jealous person he would who would do anything to keep him. He claimed Carla had killed Kristen and Leslie and that he had not been President President at the time of their deaths. He denied the daily beatings that Carla had testified to, except for the last beating that landed her in the hospital before her parents rescued her.

49:27 He was cocky and condescending on the stand, seeming to enjoy himself, showing no remorse. As damaging as the tapes were to Paul, they did not include the actual deaths of Kristen and Leslie, so there was a little concern the jury might not have enough evidence to convict him. On August thirty first, the jury began deliberations at about three pm. They worked until nine pm and began again twelve hours later. By noon a verdict was reached. So this shocked me because I thought the jury would would work for about twelve seconds and they would be like, you know what, we don't even need We're just gonna tell you he's But no, they took him a little longer. The Homolkas, the Frenches, and the Halfey families were all present as the verdict was read. Paul showed no emotion. Again. He was found guilty on all counts. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of pearle for at least twenty five years, which is the most severe penalty in Canada. So there's no such thing as life without pearl. No.

50:25 Paul Bernardo was later classified as a dangerous offender, making it very unlikely he will ever be released. Let's hope that, Okay, I can't even imagine. In a report for the court, doctor Peter Jaffee, a woman's abuse specialist of London, Ontario, stated that Carla quote exhibits all the signs and symptoms symptoms of a young woman who has been extremely traumatized by an abusive relationship. She fits all the criteria for battered woman's syndrome and our view she was groomed and brainwashed. I think that's important. She was again not defending her She was seventeen when they started dating. She was brainwashed by mister Bernardo to become involved in increasingly bizarre and dangerous behavior that was harmful to herself and others.

51:09 The report went on to say that Carlo was extremely vulnerable to Paul Bernardo at the time of their meeting due to the difference in power in status, specifically the differences in age, accumulated life experiences, finances, education, independence, and physical size. It is significant. He said that Carlo was captivated by Paul Bernardo during her late adolescence, a crucial period of her development. The rapid changes in her life would make her vulnerable to Paul's tactics. He likened Carlo's experience to a concentration camp because Paul had complete control over her. So take that for what it's worth. Yeah, I think there's something to be said for that. So Carlo is people are going to be mad about this. Carlo was released from prison in July two thousand and five. She was just thirty six years old, so how many years had she spent in prison. Total, she spent the whole twelve years. She had been transferred to a men's prison in Montreal, living in solitary confinement in the months leading up to her release, an attempt to shield her from the media. However, they caught wind of the transfer and they were there in DROs when she was released. Several cars were used by authorities to trick the reporters that were trying to get a shot of Carla. So she gave an interview to Radio Canada just hours after her release. I had play any interview for you, but it's in French, but I did listen to it with subtitles, so I'm going to summarize it for you. Carlo became fluent in French while in prison, and she said she wanted to restart her life in French because she believed that they had been less sensationalistic and less judgmental than those in Ontario.

52:42 In the interview, she admitted that she had done horrible things, but said she was not a danger to the public. Carlo said she hoped that people so she hoped to help people, but admitted she struggled emotionally with the acts of violence that she had committed. She said that she had been a pure counselor in prison and hoped to con tinue that work outside of prison. She spent many hours many years living in solitary confinement due to death threats from inmates. While in prison, she received a degree in psychology. She said she feels remorse for her actions and cried frequently in prison. Oh, poor Carla. Didn't expect society to forgive her. She said she didn't initiate the crimes, but went along with them. She has maintained good relationships with her family, who visited her in prison, and her mother was there for her release.

53:29 Carlo said they all love her. After the interview, Carlo said she really wanted an iced cappuccino from Tim from Tim Horton's. Although she was free from physical prison, Carlo said she would always be in an internal prison. Do you want to talk about Tim Hortons for a second, just because you know Tim Hortons is important to Canadians and Detroitters. Yeah, for sure, I love everyone loves Tim Hortons. Was a talk. I mean, it's a coffee shop. If no one knows they have one of a little things called Tibet Timbets, Yeah, which I like the name better. They're donuts. I mean, you can send me hate me out if you want, but they're not amazing. No, no, I mean it's just kind of like a basis. It's a lot like Dunkin Donuts. It's like, yeah, it's good, but nothing that special. Do you know who Tim Wharton was though, Well, I'm guessing he was a hockey player. Yeah.

54:21 Yeah, it's a Yeah, it's a fun place. It's they're usually open twenty No, they're not. I think they used to be open twenty four hours. But yeah, I don't know. It's hard to find a twenty four our our restaurant anymore. White Castle, are they still? I don't think so. I'll wake you up at two am and we'll go check it out tonight. That actually yesterday when we went to see the Barbie movie. They had White Castle Hamburgers at the movie. Yeah, I can you tell, like, I'm willing to take any any any any sideword I can take here. We're almost done though. While in prison, Carl had a relationship with a man named Sean Paul Gerbay, who had killed his girlfriend. They had a three year correspondence Carla. I think the men and women's prisons were like they were right next to each other. Carla may had been released two years earlier had it not been for this relationship. She has refused to talk about it. While in prison. She also had a relationship with a woman who she called the love of her life before she met Gerbet. They met him the prison library where he worked, and they exchanged sexually charged letters and books. A fellow inmate claims she saw them fondling one another through a chain linked fence that divides the women's prison from the men's prison. Gerbe was later moved to another prison. The two had planned to marry in prison, but the prison would not allow it. Carlo moved to Quebec and changed her name.

55:43 I think she's had several different aliases. One of them was Leanne Bordelay. Carlo was never This makes me really mad. She was never tried for sexual assault crimes, so she has no limitations on where she can live or what she can do. She is married to the brother of one of her defense attorneys. Her first child, a son, was born in two thousand and seven, and the hospital some nurses refused to help her due to her past. She went on to have two more children. In twenty sixteen in Shadauguay, residents were stunned to learn that Carla, then forty five, resided in the community and had children that were attending the elementary school that was a short distance from her home, where she sometimes volunteered and went on field trips.

56:28 Can you imagine how mad people were when they found out that Carla was going on field trips? No, I can't imagine. She also used the name Leanne Teal, which was the surname that she and Paul had adopted shortly after their marriage. Till was a serial killer in the movie Criminal Law and a character that they had admired. In the most recent update I found on Carla, she might not be living with her husband and children anymore. She probably she's going to continue to have death threats her whole the rest of her existence. So it's probably she probably has to move frequently. I would guess. I don't really know anything else about what she's doing. Yeah, So now to Paul. In June of this year, the Correctional Services of Canada or the c SC, transferred Paul from mill Haven Institution, a maximum security prison in Ontario to Lamakaza Institution, an open campus medium security prison in Quebec.

57:24 Really, it's unclear why this transfer occurred. I think Paul asked for it, but Canadians are outraged, understandably so, and want answers. The CSC released a comment that said, quote, we are restricted by law and what we can divulge about an offender's case. We regret any pain and concern this decision has caused. We want Canadians to have confidence in her decision. End quote. I'm that's ridiculous. Yeah, I'll say. I mean if anyone like this guy is such a creep, well, first I thought, well, maybe maybe if he's really old or whatever, but he's basically my age. I was wondering if he was ill or something, but he requested the transfer. It's rumored that the prison that Paul was transferred to houses a large number of sex offenders, making them less likely to be under attack, so that could be one of the reasons. Ontario Premier Doug Ford issued a statement that said Ontarians stand with his victims and their families, including those of less than Mahaffian Kristen French. Bernardo should rot in maximum security prison for the rest of his miserable, miserable existence, full stop end quote. I agree, like I yeah, I guess I'm a little surprised no one has taken him out in prison. Like you mentioned, he had gotten beat up a lot. Like I'm a little surprised he hasn't been killed. I believe he's been in solitary pretty much the entire time. But now he's in this medium security prison. I don't know what that means. But this was just in

58:55 June, I believe, so it's possible it will be changed. I will research that. I'll stay on that. In twenty eighteen, Paul was charged with having a handmade weapon in his cell, but the charge was later dropped. It appears that he is in solitary confinement, in his cell, kept apart from other I at least like say that, and then it's in the script. He's kept apart from the other prisoners. He has had two parole hearings, which is insane, one in twenty eighteen and one in twenty one, and both were struck down. Well that's good at least, I mean it's good, which is the fact that they even allow him to have a parole hearing. Yeah, Paul and Carla destroyed many lives and families. Court officials, jury members, police, and others blame the tapes as a contributing factor for their personal struggles with PTSD, suicidal thoughts, and divorce post post trial. At the urging of the victims families, the tapes were eventually destroyed, incinerated. I just can't imagine having to watch those tapes and those core jurors, I mean, just anyone who had to see them for their job or as a juror doing your civil duty. It's I always think about that of like being on a jury where stuff like that ends up having to be shown. It would be really hard to process that and deal with that afterwards.

1:00:08 And you know, these are old tapes, and I saw like a picture of one. I don't know if they were Beta Max. I don't know when beta and vhs existed, but I think they were pretty small. They looked fairly small. But if I recall like a videotape, like you're thinking, oh, how many how much footage could six video tapes hold, well, I think they could be six to eight hours, right, like they were long? Yeah, yeah, so that anyway, the pink cape Cot House of Horrors and Poor to Lucy was demolished. So that's the story of the Kennon Barbie killers. Wow, that's a lot. Huh, that's a lot, So I have some things to wrap up here. There are several other rapes and murders like we've said, that may have committed been committed by Paul. Bernardo. Carla told police that Paul had once bragged to her that he had raped over their women. While on their honeymoon in Hawaii, a woman was raped with the typical modus operandi of Paul. A newspaper clipping was found in Paul's home of the incident, so that was likely him.

1:01:14 Terry Anderson, fifteen, vanished in November of nineteen ninety one, about a mile from where Kristen had vanished. She was later found in Lake Ontario in Port de Lucy, which is where they lived. Police said there was no foul play and it was an accidental drowning due to her being high end LSD. But she'd been in the water for over six months, so any evidence would have pretty much disappeared. So I think that's another likely Paul murder. A woman named Elizabeth Baine disappeared in June of nineteen ninety from the University of Toronto campus. At the time, her boyfriend was the prime suspect, but he was later acquitted. It's thought that Paul could have murdered her, but he was never seriously looked at as a suspect at the time because at that time he wasn't known as a murderer. He was just known as a rapist.

1:02:06 And November of twenty fifteen, Paul self published a six hundred and thirty one page book called A Mad World Order on Amazon dot com. It quickly became a best seller before it was removed. It was removed due to the public outcry. I can't even believe it became a best seller. I guess people are just curious though, right, so, we know that Paul is pure garbage, But is Carlo redeemable? Did she manipulate the legal system? Was she telling the truth? Something I didn't say is they're both highly intelligent. I don't know what Paul's i Q was, but I think during her psychological the battery of tests, she was I think her intelligence wasn't the isn't the top two percent of people? So could she have manipulated everyone. It's a tough one. I mean, I really I think that's one of the most interesting parts of this case is how, yeah, how culpable she is and the whole thing, and whether she manipulated the legal system or not.

1:03:13 It's I don't know. I don't know either, but I think that there was definitely some degree of manipulation on her part for sure. But yeah, well, it sounds like she lied about how involved she was with the killings. And I would think, like, if you reached a plea deal, but then they later found out you lied to get to that plea deal, that you could basically back away from that. And part of the plea deal was that if she perjured herself that the plea deal was would become invalid. But they decided not to charge her. Interesting. Yeah, very disturbing. I do have mixed feelings about Carlo though, because I do feel like she was definitely a battered spouse and she was controlled and I understand like, you know, Stockholm syndrome or all those type of things, So I do have some sympathy for her. I guess having sex with your sisters. Yeah, yeah, she did some disgusting things, some horrible things, and she definitely deserved to be punished. I think one of the worst things that she did was have three children. Yeah, I think it's sick. I think that if she had an ounce of self reflection, as she would know that it would be just so selfish of her to have three kids and what those kids must go through. Yeah, yeah, good point. It really bothers me.

1:04:28 What else do we have here? Paul was an animal. He tried to make Carla have sex with the dog. He said if they had a daughter, that she that he would have sex with her, and he this this part is really gross, shouldn't I say? Well, one of the things that I don't know, it's all just horrible. But he urinated on people, He defecated on people, and he made people eat his species. Yeah. It said that the book American Psycho was like a bible to Paul. I think I read that a long time. I read that disturbing. In January of nineteen ninety seven, Paul's first lawyer, Ken was charged with obstruction of justice and possession of child pornography for failing to turn over the Bernardo tapes. Yeah. So, Paul scored thirty five out of forty on the Psychopath Checklist, which is a psychological assessment tool used to access assess the presence of psychopath and individuals, and Carla on the same test, scored five out of forty. I made you take the test. I scored five out of forty. If you would, Carla so much in common? Not at all?

1:05:44 I scored one out of forty. But then I'm like, am I a psychopath? Though? Because I scored one out of forty? Because I don't you know a psychopath? And I can ask my answers, right, That's that is the question. When I took the test, I thought this test is not for self assessment because if you were a psychopath, you would lie about everything. So you're saying I'm a psychopath. Well, because we don't know, We just don't know. I'll also met the criteria for this is going to just shock you. Narcissistic, narcissis. I can't talk anymore. I'm done. My tongue is done. Narcissistic personality, disorder, voyeurism, paraphilia, and sadism. He got, he got all the all the isms. I am done, And can I tell you how happy I am to be done with this okay, Oh, open some champagne. Now.

1:06:31 Well was we were going to like put this off, but I was like, I need to clear my brain. So I am done with I'm done with. Paul Bernardo and Carla hummelglaf forever. Good. Congratulations it was you did a great job on it. I'm not sure about that, but thank you. Thank you for listening, thank you for your patience. Sure, sure, I just really just it just made me. It's very uncomfortable. Yeah, well you should detox. You should like take all take long bath and you know, have a glass of wine or something and just chill out for like the next two days. Well, we want to take a vacation. We want to get away. So I'm gonna, well, I have a bunch of stuff that I started, so I'm gonna I'm gonna finish those cases up. Yeah. So again, we're coming up on our one year anniversary and we were gonna do some fun things. We're thinking about dropping a merch line. So if you have any merch ideas, let us know.

1:07:31 If there's anything you'd like to see, anything you want to wear, Yeah, anything you want to support us with. We're like gonna be funny, I know, everyone's tired. We need to wrap this up. But yeah, and also I was thinking we would do maybe a little Q and A, like a special birthday episode that no one probably will listen to, but I would like to do because I'd love a good you know, a good party and celebration. So if you have any questions for us, send them to us behind the scenes, if you want to know how things operate right here in the Love Mary Kill studio. Yeah, it would be fun. Yeah, alright, one year. I can't believe it's almost been a year. It feels like six. I know. Some guysn't like, why how do we have a podcast? It's it is weird, Yeah it is.

1:08:16 Yeah, all right, Well follow us on social media, follow us on Instagram, Love Mary Kill. Yeah, thank you all for listening. We're really grateful for each and everyone. We really are. But we have a little script that is trying to go off script, and then Rich grabs the script like I need script, script, I need uh. I think it's very obvious when we read it off the script. So we were just really bad at closing the show, and so we were like, we're going to try to scripting good. Everyone know we We're mess. We are loving but adorable mess. We do. We're doing our best. We do love and appreciate all of our listeners though, I really, I really believe we have the best listeners of any true crime podcast out there. So thank you.

1:09:01 We yeah, we are very very appreciative. As always, I appreciate you. I appreciate you, and seriously I mean it like this would not be happening without you and your patience and your technological wizardry. Well I also mean it too. You are the You're the brains behind this whole thing, so you know, mm okay, all right, Well, until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife. Be the boy up.