May 25, 2026

Pelley Family Murders - Part 1

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In April 1989, four members of the Pelley family were brutally murdered inside their Indiana church parsonage just hours before prom. Investigators quickly focused on 17-year-old Jeff Pelley, but the case against him was entirely circumstantial and filled with lingering questions. Over the decades, the murders have sparked debate, allegations of tunnel vision, alternate theories, and claims of wrongful conviction.

In this two-part episode, we examine the complicated dynamics inside the blended Pelley family, the timeline prosecutors built their case around, the evidence both for and against Jeff, and the questions that still surround the murders more than 35 years later.

Listen to part 2 now

Today's snacks: BBQ chips from Lay's, Better Made and Busch's

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hey Rich. Happy Thursday. Well, happy Monday to everyone, but

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it's Thursday for.

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Us, Hi, Tina, Happy Thursday to you as well.

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Do you have your white pants and shoes dusted off

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and ready to go?

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Yes? I am so ready to wear white clothing again.

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Listeners, I never buy rich white clothing. Well, they're not

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very white anymore, are they. I didn't even realize it

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was Memorial Day weekend coming out today. As this episode

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drops its Memorial Day, someone asked today, Oh, do you

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guys want to do something Monday?

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And I was like, I know. It's kind of nice

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when these things happened because I forget about it too,

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And now I'm like, oh, I have a three day weekend.

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That's pretty cool.

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I hope that we don't accidentally slip up and reveal

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like who did the murder beforehand, like Jeff Probes did,

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laugh Nando and Survivor that was bananas. It was bananas

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because I never I thought, oh, I must have missed something.

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We're trying to rewind and we.

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Should probably explain for people who maybe aren't big Survivor fans,

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but they have the live finale and Jeff Probes, the host,

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messed up and revealed who was in.

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The final three is Yeah, which really wasn't as big

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of a deal as it seemed at the It.

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Was pretty embarrassing because it was live, and it was

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like the audience that was there was like kind of

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gasped because they asked for sure.

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And then it felt so bad. I don't think a

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lot of people realized that his brother passed away, like

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within the last week.

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Oh I didn't know that.

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I forgot to tell you that. But yeah, so I

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feel like he's been through a lot and preparing for

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this live you know, season Nelly was a big team.

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But enough about Survivor. Let's move on to Emily in Paris.

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I know that's one of your favorite shows. It's actually

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a show that no one likes. But it's been on

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for six seasons and I just just read before we

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started recording that it's ending after six years.

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No one likes it.

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No, it's like I hate everyone hate watches it.

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Really Okay, I've heard the name, but I really I know.

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It's a pretty bad show. But if you like fashion,

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like the fashion is pretty good. I used to watch

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it on the treadmill, but I was like, I think

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I've watched three seasons of it. I'll probably finish it eventually.

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But why would you watch three seasons of a show

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that's really bad?

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Because I keep waiting for it to get better, just

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like people keep listening to her podcast, Year.

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Four, Your four is going to be the year it

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gets better.

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So I know that you know the case that we

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are doing today, but you said you don't remember it.

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Well. I think it's a case about somebody named Tony

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because I got a text from you like an hour ago,

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and all it said was Tony Carruthers, And so I'm like,

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is that the case?

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It was so funny you said that. When we sat

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down to record, You're like, oh, it's just the Corruller's case,

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And I was like, what are you talking about? You said

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I say, I was like, I did not send you

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that text, us you did, but I did. I have

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no idea what that is about.

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All the text said was Tony Carruthers, and you don't

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know what it was about.

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No, I don't know if I thought I was leaving

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myself a no, is this were you? I wish I knew,

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because I really have. I guess I should just give

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it a Google. But we'll worry about that later. Okay,

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So I did bring you a snack, but I feel

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like you always just hit it out of the ballpark. Again,

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I know, I don't, don't because I was really stressed

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this week. This was a bit off more than I

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could chew.

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And it's always bad when you're starting the snack with

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a lot of disclaimers, so you should just kind of

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come out with it. I don't do that great with snacks.

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Something I do gas station snacks. Sometimes this is.

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More of a well it kind of has a fun angle.

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A snack doesn't always have to be a you know,

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homemade special.

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Right, And I feel like sometimes it's good when you

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have something listeners can get at home. Yeah, but one

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thing I brought you was I went to the local

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bushes mart market place and I got you some star

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spangled vanilla cake fight really good. They have like little

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memorial like where you know, red, white and blue stars

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on them. But the other thing I did you were

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eating some chips today and you said, well, they.

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Were Better Made brand chips, which are made in Michigan.

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Yourself here because this is I feel bad as a Michigander,

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but I think they're not very good.

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So I went and I and I told you, well,

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I feel like the Better Made barbecue chips are the

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best barbecue chips around. So I went to the grocery store.

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I was kind of embarrassed because I bought three bags

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of barbecued potato chips. They're probably like, why does this

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lady need three different But anyway, so I'm going to

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have you do a little taste test three chips, and

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you're going to pick your favorite. Okay, potato excellent for exciting,

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So I gave you three different chips. Which one was

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your favorite?

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I think number two was my favorite. They all tasted

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very similar to me, but number two were a little

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thicker and heartier. Number I think number two is my favorite.

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Number three was my second. Had a little bit of

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a zing to it. Number one least favorite.

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Okay, Number one was Lays. Oh you love Lay's potato chips.

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That's your favorite potato ches? Right two was Bushes, our

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local market brand they do make a good potato chips.

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I actually didn't really like that one number three was

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the better maid, so you did not go for the

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better made, which I thought you would.

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Interesting. They all tasted very similar to I mean, that's.

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The I should have given you a palette cleanser, because.

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Yeah, I did have the little cupcake as a palate cleanser,

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and that was actually really good. Reminded me a lot

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of like a little Debbie type cake. Very basic cake.

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Cake in the little uh cake bite, but they don't

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look like real cake bites. They look like a piece

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of cake that's been dipped in.

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A cake bite is supposed to be a cake.

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That swushed together. All right, Ready to get to today's case.

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Sure.

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On the morning of April thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, families

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filtered into Olive Branch United Brethren Church in Christ in

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rural Lakeland, Indiana, a few miles south of South Bend.

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Sunday services were still half an hour away, but the

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quiet church grounds were already beginning to stir as cars

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rolled into the gravel parking lot just after nine am.

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Next to the church sat the whitewashed parsonage, where Reverend

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Bob Pelly lived with his wife down and their recently

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blended family. The modest home had three bedrooms, two bathrooms,

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an eden kitchen, a living room, and a partially finished basement.

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Its doors were usually open to friends and church members

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dropping by throughout the week. The congregation was small, only

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about one hundred members, with perhaps half attending on any

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given Sunday, and many had known one another for years,

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even decades. On that picture perfect spring morning, parishioners lingered

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beside their cars, chatting and greeting friends before the service.

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Eleven year old Stephanie Fagin and her father were always

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among the first to arrive. Mister Fagan's job was to

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prepare the church for the upcoming service, while Stephanie usually

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headed straight to the parsonage. She was close friends with Jessica, Janelle,

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and Jolene, and each Sunday she was welcomed inside for

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breakfast with the Pellies before church. She especially loved Don's pancakes.

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The door was always open and Stephanie knew to let

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herself in, but on this Sunday, the front door was locked.

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She tried the others and found them locked too. The

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garage door was closed, the curtains tightly drawn for a

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family of seven. The house was unnervingly quiet. Stephanie went

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to find her father, and she told him that something

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felt wrong. By now, Reverend Pelly should have already unlocked

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the church. Some assumed the family had simply overslept. As

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the congregation grew restless, a young pastor and training stepped

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in to begin the service. Still, several church board members

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remained uneasy. David Hathaway, a World War II veteran and

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longtime member of the Olive Branch church, remembered that he

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had a key to the parsonage at home. Since he

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only lived a mile away, he drove to retrieve it.

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When Hathaway returned, he discovered that the key no longer worked.

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Linda May easter Day quietly left the service under way

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inside the church and offered her key instead. This time,

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the lot clicked open. Hathaway stepped inside. The house was

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perfectly still and quiet. He called out, but no one answered.

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Then he noticed Bob Pelly's glasses lying on the floor,

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and that instant he knew something was horribly wrong. As

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Hathaway moved down the hallway towards the bedrooms, he found

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Bob thirty eight years old, lying face up on the

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hardwood floor with gunshot wounds to his chest and face.

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Dave immediately backed away, hurried to the kitchen, called knight,

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and left the home to avoid disturbing the scene. Shaken

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and horrified, Hathaway returned to the church to tell the

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others what he had found. Pray for them, he urged,

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pray for them hard. When Saint Joseph County first responders arrived,

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they searched the basement. Dave Hathaway followed close behind. There

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they discovered three more bodies. Don Pelly, thirty one, Bob's

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wife of two years, and her daughters from her previous marriage,

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Janelle eight and Joe Lene's six. Three members of the

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Pelly family were missing from the home that morning, seventeen

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year old Jeff, thirteen year old Jackie, and nine year

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old Jessica. Where were they and were they in danger?

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It's such a chilling story, and I do remember this now.

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We listened to a really well done podcast about this,

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I don't remember what it was called.

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Called Counterclock, Counterclock Season three, and that was one of

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my main sources for this case. I also read a

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book about it that was really good that we'll talk

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about at the end, So you do remember most of

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the case. I don't think we finished when we were

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on that road trip. I don't think we finished the podcast.

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No, I don't know if I remembered the outcome. I

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remember some of the details. But I'm really looking forward

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to hearing your telling of this because it was a

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really interesting story.

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I don't remember tell this one for a while. Robert

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Lee Pelly, known as Bob, was born in East Liverpool, Ohio,

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in March nineteen fifty one. Even to those who knew him,

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Bob remains a somewhat elusive figure. People described him as

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charismatic and commanding, the kind of man who could easily

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take charge of a room, but also stern and demanding,

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especially with his son Jeff. Bob like firearms and valued discipline,

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traits that would later shape the atmosphere inside the Pelly household.

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It was also sometimes a jokester. One Sunday, he sat

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in the pews reading the newspaper for ten minutes before

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starting the church service. So I read two books on

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the case, and I listened to the Counterclock podcast, But

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I still didn't have a great sense of who Bob was.

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Maybe it's just the way the books were written by Yeah.

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It's surprising though for somebody who is a somewhat of

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a public figure, right.

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I think he was a little mysterious. I think he

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kept a lot, you know.

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Under the vest.

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Bob attended Youngstown State University in Ohio, but from a

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young age he felt deeply drawn toward religion. Eventually, that

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calling led him to transfer to Mount Vernon Nazarene College

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to major and religious studies. There, Bob met his future wife,

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Ava Joy Armstrong known as Joy. Both were devoted members

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of the Church of the Nazarene, a Protestant denomination rooted

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in the Wesleyan holiness tradition that emphasized personal salvation, strict

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moral values, humility, and family centered living. In smaller communities, especially,

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the church often served as both a spiritual and social

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anchor for daily life. Bob and Joy married on September eleventh,

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nineteen seventy. Their son, Robert Jeffrey known as Jeff, was

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born the following year, and daughter Jacqueline Kay or Jackie,

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arrived three years later. Although Bob felt spiritually drawn toward ministry,

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his early adult life followed a different path. Intelligent and

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technically skilled, he built a successful career in the growing

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field of computer programming and information systems, work that provided

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financial stability for the family at a time when the

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technology industry was rapidly expanding. In nineteen eighty the Pellies

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relocated to Cape Coral, Florida, near Fort Myers. Cape Coral

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is a fast growing Gold Coast city known for its canals,

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boating culture, and suburban development. In the early nineteen eighties,

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it attracted families seeking sunshine, opportunity, and financial stability, a

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different world from the small Midwestern church communities that the

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Pellies had come from. Bob accepted a position with Landmark

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Banks data processing headquarters. The move represented opportunity and upward mobility,

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and in nineteen eighty four, the family purchased their first home.

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Jackie remembers the family as close knit and loving, filled

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with laughter and fun. While Bob was always stricter and

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more disciplined than Joy, the family was stable and happy

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during those years, but their new life was short lived.

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Soon after, Joy was diagnosed with stage four melanoma. Deeply

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rooted in her faith, she chose to forego much of

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the aggressive treatment and appeared at peace with the fact

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that she was dying, ready to meet her savior. Near

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the end of her life, Joy was placed on life support,

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and Bob faced the agonizing decision to remove her from it,

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despite the objections of some of her family members. On

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February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty five, Joy died at just

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thirty five years old, leaving behind thirteen year old Jeff

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and ten year old Jackie. Jeff was especially close to

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his mother. She understood his humor and personality in ways

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Bob often didn't, and her death devastated him. In the aftermath,

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Bob encouraged the children to stay strong and avoid dwelling

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too openly and grief, telling them their mother would have

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wanted them to move forward with their lives. But for Jeff,

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moving forward was not that simple.

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Losing a parent at thirteen is really tough, especially it

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sounds like Jeff and his relationship with his mother was

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really close to right.

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Right, Adolescence is one of the hardest times in your life,

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and yes, to lose your mom right then would be

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super hard. Just six months after Joy's death, Bob met

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Don Hayes Huber through a cousin at a family gathering.

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Don was a young widow herself raising three little girls alone,

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six year old Jessica, five year old Janelle, and three

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year old Joline. Born in nineteen fifty seven in Saginaw, Michigan,

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Don had grown up in nearby Midland. At Bullock Creek

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High School, she was admired not only for her beauty,

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but for her athleticism and quiet confidence. In nineteen seventy five,

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she was voted prom Queen and Athlete of the Year

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after participating in nearly every sport the school offered. Friends

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remembered her as reserved but kind, the type of person

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people naturally gravitated towards. She was a member of the

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National Honor Societ and played the clarinet in the school band.

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By the mid nineteen eighties, Don's life had been shattered

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by tragedy. In January nineteen eighty five, just weeks before

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Joy Pelly's death, Don's husband, Ed Huber, died at the

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couple's home in Toledo, Ohio. Ed, an experienced mechanic, succumbed

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to carbon monoxide poisoning while working at a running car

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inside a closed garage. Alcohol was listed as a contributing

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factor in his death. Although his death was officially ruled accidental.

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Whispers circulated that Ed may have taken his own life.

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Amid reports that the marriage was struggling and that he

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was planning to leave. At just twenty eight years old,

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Don suddenly found herself widowed and raising three young daughters alone.

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Bob and Don married on November eighth, nineteen eighty five,

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just eight and a half months after Joy's death. Two outsiders,

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the relationship appeared to move quickly, but both were grieving

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widows left trying to rebuild shattered lives. Don, now alone

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with her three young daughters, was struggle financially after Ed's death,

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and stability likely played a role in the rushed marriage.

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Neither Jeff nor Jackie attended the wedding. Instead, the two

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remained behind in Florida, expected to continue attending school while

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her father remarried without them present. Soon afterward, Don and

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her daughters moved into the Pellies, Florida home. The transition

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was difficult almost immediately. Jeff, still deeply grieving his mother,

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resented how quickly his father had moved on Down was

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only thirteen years older than him, making the dynamic feel

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even more uncomfortable. Bob encouraged both Jeff and Jackie to

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call down mom, but neither child was willing to do so.

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Now, how did Bob and Down meet.

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Bob's cousin was Don's best friend, and they met at

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a family gathering. I'm not sure if it was like, oh,

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00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.159
you should meet my cousin, Bob, but.

316
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.919
And that did they have like a long distance relationship

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for a time.

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It sounded like they only saw each other a couple

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00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.440
of times because he was in Florida taking care of

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his kids, and.

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00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.559
You know, she was, Yeah, that seemed really fast, though

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I don't.

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Think they knew each other super well. But like I said,

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it seemed like, you know, he felt like the kids

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needed a mom, and she like her kids needed a dad.

326
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And you know, I think that Bob asking his children

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00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:17.599
to call Dawn mom was definitely too early. They're not

328
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little kids, right.

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And really quickly after their real mother's death, it doesn't

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seem quite right.

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Years later, Don's oldest daughter, Jessica, would write candidly about

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this period in her memoir I Am Jessica. Beneath the

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00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.000
image of a newly blended Christian family. She described carrying

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00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.480
enormous anger and grief during those years. She was still

335
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mourning the sudden loss of her father while trying to

336
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adjust to a new stepfather, new siblings, and an entirely

337
00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.799
new family dynamic almost overnight. Jessica reflected that she and

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Jeff in particular, both seem to be struggling under the

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weight of unresolved grief and resentment. A year later, on

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the couple's first wedding anniversary, Bob accepted a position with

341
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Olive Branch Church of the Brethren in northern Indiana, and

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the newly blended family relocated once again. The move required

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00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.400
significant sacrifice. Bob left behind a successful career in Florida

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for a modest pastor's salary of just twelve hundred dollars

345
00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:18.160
a month. Housing at the church parsonage was included, but

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supporting a household of seven on a minister's income would

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00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.720
still prove difficult. The church itself was reportedly struggling financially

348
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.279
the time of Bob's death. Olive Branch's bank account allegedly

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contained less than three hundred dollars, so.

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When Bob lived in Florida, he was not working for

351
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a church at that time, so this was a career

352
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change for him. When he made this movie.

353
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Yeah, absolutely, and some people say that he was not

354
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even ordained at that point when he took that job. Interesting,

355
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We'll be back after a break.

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Jeff Pelly was bright, personable, and by many accounts, easy

357
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to like, but beneath their he was struggling deeply. In

358
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just a few short years, he had lost his mother,

359
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:10.400
watched his father remarry with startling speed, gained three young stepsisters,

360
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and been uprooted from Florida to rural Indiana. During some

361
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of the most turbulent years of adolescence, the emotional whiplash

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was immense, and at times Jeff battled depression and suicidal

363
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thoughts as tension inside the home steadily escalated. The family

364
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.240
eventually sought counseling, but Jeff often pushed hard against the

365
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:34.119
rules and authority inside the household. He brought girls into

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his bedroom, drove recklessly on rural roads, and frequently clashed

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with Dawn, whom he openly resented. The conflict between Jeff

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00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:47.519
and Bob also grew increasingly strained, with arguments over discipline, respect,

369
00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.440
and control becoming a regular part of family life. In

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00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.400
the week before the murders, the conflict between Jeff and

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00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.039
Bob turned physical Bob clocked Jeff in the jaw during

372
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an argument, a confrontation that underscored just how volatile the

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atmosphere inside the home had become.

374
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.400
How common do you think it is for fathers and

375
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sons to come to blows?

376
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.000
I mean, that's a really good question. I've never come

377
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to blows with our son, but I'm sure it happens.

378
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.200
I think it's pretty common. I think that teenage boys

379
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are the most volatile creatures on the planet. Really.

380
00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:22.640
Yeah, that's true. And if you're growing up in a

381
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.839
household where the father is very strict and authoritarian, I

382
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:29.279
can see that coming to blows, you know, pretty regularly.

383
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And at this point of Jeff's life, I think he

384
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needed more nurturing than control.

385
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.960
Yeah. Dave Hathaway, a member of Olive Branch Church and

386
00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.359
a close friend of Bob's, later recall the conversation just

387
00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.400
weeks before the murders, in which Bob quietly asked him

388
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.359
whether he thought he was a good father. Behind the

389
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.039
confident exterior of the pastor and family man, Bob appeared

390
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.839
to be struggling deeply with his relationship with Jeff. In

391
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.759
the years since the move to Indiana, Jeff had become

392
00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.960
increasingly rebellious and defiant, and Bob seemed unsure how to

393
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.559
reach him. According to the South Bend Tribune, Bob told

394
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.599
Dave that he was half scared of what Jeff might do.

395
00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.039
Down also confided in a friend that she was scared

396
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.119
of Jeff. At one point, Bob had even enrolled in

397
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.880
a class focused on blended families, searching for guidance on

398
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.559
how to hold the household together. But the strain inside

399
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.000
the home extended beyond Jeff and Bob. According to some

400
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.720
friends and relatives, Don had begun privately questioning whether she

401
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.920
and Bob had rushed into marriage too quickly. She reportedly

402
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.400
disliked the way Bob disciplined her daughters, viewing him as

403
00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:42.160
overly rigid and controlling. Some accounts say Bob occasionally punished

404
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.319
the girls with a belt, something that deeply upset Don.

405
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.200
The pressure of being a minister's wife and the unspoken

406
00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.960
expectation that she present herself as the perfect Christian mother

407
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:57.000
and homemaker weighed heavily on her. Her relationship with Jeff

408
00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.759
was particularly difficult. He was sullen, Reis had often rejected

409
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.400
her attempts to build a connection with him, even when

410
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:08.400
she tried to show kindness. When she and Bob first met,

411
00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.599
he wasn't a minister, right, So now suddenly she was

412
00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.559
sort of thrust into this role of being a minister's wife.

413
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.640
Whether it was really her choice or not.

414
00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:19.440
I believe they were both deeply religious, but yeah, this

415
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:22.039
was a new role for them. And you know, all

416
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.039
eyes are on you. Yeah, your family, your marriage, your

417
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:26.039
house totally.

418
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.839
What made life inside the Pelly home so complicated was

419
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.960
that nearly everyone there was carrying some form of unresolved grief.

420
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.920
Bob was still mourning, joy Don was grieving ed and

421
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.039
the children, all five of them, had been uprooted from

422
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:43.839
the lives that they once knew and thrust into an

423
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:47.559
entirely new family structure before they had fully processed the

424
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:53.160
loss of a parent. Different homes, rules, different churches, different expectations.

425
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:57.599
Underneath the friction of a blended family was a deeper sadness.

426
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.559
Everyone in that house was grieving, and if they were

427
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.240
grieving in very different ways.

428
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.359
Jackie, Jeff's biological sister. She was thirteen or fourteen at

429
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.319
this time, and she was very quiet, and she kept

430
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:15.400
to herself, and Jeff's grief was so in your face.

431
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:17.559
You knew that he was really struggling. Not that the

432
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.880
other kids, like Jackie weren't struggling, It's just that they

433
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.279
kept it more to themselves. And I just feel like

434
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.119
that's important to acknowledge that people grieve in different ways.

435
00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:27.279
Her struggle was more internal.

436
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:31.599
Six weeks before the murders, Jeff was caught breaking into

437
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.240
a friend's home and stealing roughly one hundred dollars in cash,

438
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:39.160
along with about forty CDs. When Bob learned what had happened,

439
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.200
he personally brought Jeff to the police station to face

440
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.960
the consequences. According to the book The prom Night Murders

441
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.400
by Carlton Smith, it was not Jeff's first brush with trouble.

442
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:53.079
In the previous year, he had reportedly been caught shoplifting

443
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.920
at Target, breaking into cars at the mall, smoking marijuana,

444
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.640
and stealing a check from a women's church fund managed

445
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:01.440
by Don.

446
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.880
Those are some pretty serious offenses, right, yeah, absolutely, And

447
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:08.440
when he stole the check, I think that's the one

448
00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.039
that I would be like most, I don't know, I mean,

449
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.200
they're all they're all bad things that I would be,

450
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.359
you know, really upset about yeah, but the check Don

451
00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:20.400
was really mad and made him apologize to the group

452
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.880
of women, and he was really mad about that. But

453
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.160
I feel like that was he absolutely should have totally Yeah.

454
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:28.759
And how old was Jeff at this time?

455
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.920
He's sixteen and seventeen, okay.

456
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:35.400
Bob was deeply troubled by his son's escalating behavior. Friends

457
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.920
later recalled that he seemed torn between believing Jeff was

458
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.039
a grieving teenager acting out after years of upheaval, and

459
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.200
fearing he was drifting towards something more serious and self destructive.

460
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:49.960
Jeff claimed he had stolen the money to fund a

461
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.640
spring break trip to Florida to visit old friends. During

462
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.079
that trip, he picked up both a speeding ticket in

463
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.680
Georgia and a loitering citation in Florida. As pun, Bob

464
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.039
grounded him and took away his car. By prom season,

465
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:08.160
tensions between father and son were already running high. Bob

466
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:11.319
had reluctantly agreed to allow Jeff to attend prom with

467
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.400
his girlfriend, Darla, but he refused to fully lift the punishment.

468
00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.480
He told the teenagers he would personally drive them to

469
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.079
the dance and pick them up afterward. The after prom

470
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.160
bowling party overnight sleepover and amusement park trip planned for

471
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.079
the next day were strictly off limits, but Jeff refused

472
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:33.079
to let the issue go For days, he pleaded with

473
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.920
his father for what he viewed as one perfect weekend

474
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.839
before graduation. Friends said Bob was so angry that he

475
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:44.880
confiscated Jeff's silver nineteen eighty four Ford Mustang, hid the keys,

476
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.240
and removed the distributor rotor so the car could not

477
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:48.839
be driven.

478
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.960
I don't know what a distributor rotor is, but I

479
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.359
believe that's the part that he took out, but it

480
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.039
could have been a distributor cap as well, do you know.

481
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.319
I don't know for sh or. I think the distributor

482
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.400
roters inside the distributor cap, so it could be. Yeah,

483
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:05.079
it could be one.

484
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.079
Book said distributor rot but I also saw distributor cap.

485
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:13.359
Yeah. Bob even canceled the insurance policy, reportedly telling the

486
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.160
agent it would not be reinstated until the fall.

487
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:20.599
So Bob was mad mad. Yeah, that's a pretty strict punishment.

488
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.559
I mean, this is April, or it might have even

489
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:25.880
been late March when he took the car away, so

490
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.559
he wasn't going to get the car back until fall

491
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.519
when he was going away to college. That's a pretty

492
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:32.279
strict punishment.

493
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.279
Yeah, I'll say then.

494
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:35.920
I guess after the days after the murder, someone and

495
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:38.000
we're not sure if it was Jeff or his grandfather

496
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.480
called and had the insurance reinstated.

497
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.720
Still, Jeff later claimed that after days of arguing, Bob

498
00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:48.960
finally relented. On Wednesday night, Jeff and Darlas spent nearly

499
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.039
ninety minutes on the phone making plans for Prom weekend,

500
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:55.359
and Jeff excitedly told her that his father had changed

501
00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:58.440
his mind and agreed to let him participate in all

502
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.240
of the festivities. Relieved, Darla Lena had and made dinner

503
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.160
reservations for six thirty pm at Emporium in South Bend.

504
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:09.799
Whether Bob had truly changed his mind would later become

505
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:13.559
one of the most fiercely disputed questions in the entire case.

506
00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.119
In the days before Prom, Jeff told his friends that

507
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.920
Bob had finally relented and agreed to let him drive

508
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.440
himself and participate in the pre and post prom activities.

509
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.000
For the first time in weeks, Jeff seemed excited and optimistic,

510
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.160
talking openly about Prom weekend and the plans that he

511
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:33.119
and his friends had made celebrating their last weeks as

512
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.480
high schoolers. Jeff, although had finished high school in December,

513
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.000
so he wasn't going to school anymore.

514
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.519
But you know, okay, but it's still a rite of

515
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:43.039
passage to go through all of this.

516
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.200
Yeah, So for all like the talk of like, oh

517
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:47.880
Jeff is, you know, getting into trouble. He I think

518
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:50.119
he must have been a pretty good student to you know,

519
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:52.119
finish high school six months earlier.

520
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:52.799
Yeah.

521
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.799
On Saturday, April twenty ninth, the day of prom, Jeff

522
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.839
worked an early shift at McDonald's from four thirty am

523
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:02.279
to eleven. Bob still refused to let him drive himself

524
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:05.920
to work, so Jeff's supervisor picked him up instead. Bob

525
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:08.400
arrived late to bring him home after stopping at a

526
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:12.319
gun shop to look at pistols for don, ultimately leaving

527
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.559
without making a purchase. So again, Bob is like so

528
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.680
mad He's not even let Jeff drive to his five

529
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:20.799
am ship at work, which I'm pretty sure we'd be like,

530
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:22.000
I'll just drive yourself.

531
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:24.440
Well, but Bob didn't drive him himself, but.

532
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:25.880
Yes, he must have done something, you know.

533
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.799
Sometimes, Yeah, I would think that if Bob had relented

534
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:30.680
and said I'm going to let you drive to prom.

535
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.160
He would also be like, yeah, drive yourself to work

536
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:33.839
today too.

537
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.839
Very good point. Back at the parsonage, Jeff spent part

538
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.519
of the afternoon washing his silver in nineteen eighty four

539
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.200
Ford Mustang with help from his younger stepsisters. The moon

540
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:47.279
at the house appeared normal, even cheerful at times. Jeff

541
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.240
at lunch, watched baseball and got ready for prom. Meanwhile,

542
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:54.759
Bob spent the afternoon visiting church parishioners, while Don attended

543
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.039
a girl Scout event. Both returned home a little after

544
00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:02.200
four pm. Around four several local teenagers stopped by the

545
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.680
parsonage dress for prom so Bob could admire their outfits

546
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:09.599
and take photographs before the dance. Among them was Jeff's

547
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:13.440
ex girlfriend, Kim Oldenburg. One of the boys in the group,

548
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:17.359
Matt Miller, realized he had forgotten a corsage and rushed

549
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.480
home to retrieve it. The scene was strikingly normal, teenagers

550
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:25.480
laughing in their dresses and tuxedos, proud parents taking photographs

551
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:28.400
on a warm spring evening. No one there appeared to

552
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:32.799
sense anything was wrong, although the exact timing has been

553
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:37.200
debated whether it was just before or shortly after five pm,

554
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:39.759
but Jeff placed his tuxedo in the trunk of the

555
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:42.359
Mustang and drove off to meet his girlfriend Darla at

556
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.440
a friend's house where she was getting ready. At the time,

557
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:50.079
he was dressed casually in jeans and a Hawaiian T shirt.

558
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:53.400
On the way, Jeff stopped at an Amaco station roughly

559
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.319
five miles from home because he later claimed the Mustang

560
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.920
was idling too fast? What does that mean? Idling too fast?

561
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:02.799
Just like the engine is making a funny sound?

562
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:04.799
Probably, yeah, like when you're not putting your foot on

563
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.599
the gas, it's still it's like revving more than it should.

564
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:11.599
An employee recalled seeing Jeff there and specifically noted the

565
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.759
time five seventeen pm. Because the person scheduled to relieve

566
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.799
him had not yet arrived for work, Jeff used the

567
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.039
station's phone to call Darlin tell her that he was

568
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:25.240
running late, before asking to borrow with screwdriver. Once the

569
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.839
other employee finally arrived, the two briefly tinkered with Jeff's

570
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.839
Mustang before he drove away. A little after five point thirty,

571
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:35.599
Jeff arrived at the house where Darla was getting ready

572
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:39.240
and changed into his tuxedo. The timeline here is very

573
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.720
important because it's so tight. The evening began with a

574
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.720
six thirty pm dinner reservation at Emporium, a popular upscale

575
00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:50.839
restaurant overlooking the Saint Joseph River in South Bend. Jeff

576
00:30:50.839 --> 00:30:53.720
and Darla arrived about ten minutes late, rushing in with

577
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.440
nervous excitement of the big night ahead. Earlier that day,

578
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.640
Jeff's manager at McDonald's had given him a fifty gift

579
00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:03.759
certificate for the occasion. It was a thoughtful gesture to

580
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.640
help celebrate prom night, though Jeff fully intended to pay

581
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:09.920
her back later. After dinner, the group headed to the

582
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:13.559
Elks Lodge. Like high school seniors all across the country

583
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.480
that spring weekend, they spent the night dancing, laughing, and

584
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:19.240
taking photos, trying to make the most of one of

585
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.640
their last big milestones before graduation and adulthood arrived. The

586
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.279
fun didn't stop when the dance ended. The group traded

587
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.039
their formal wear for comfortable clothes and headed to Chipewab Bowl,

588
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:34.160
where they bowled until nearly three am. Afterward, around fourteen

589
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.640
of them piled into a friend's basement for a few

590
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.519
hours of sleep before waking up early for a road

591
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:43.079
trip to Great America the next day in Gurney, Illinois.

592
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:46.000
I spent so much of my youth at Great America.

593
00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:48.839
It was probably about ninety minutes from where I lived.

594
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.799
That's at that particular Great America.

595
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:54.519
Exact same Greade America. Yeah. Fueled by excitement and quick naps,

596
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:58.519
the kids pulled into the amusement park around eleven AM,

597
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:02.039
but a lighthearted mood didn't last long. Shortly after entering

598
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.440
the park, Darla noticed that Jeff suddenly grew pale and quiet.

599
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:07.720
When she asked him what was wrong, he admitted that

600
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.720
he had a heavy, sinking feeling that something was wrong

601
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:13.599
at home with his family. A moment later, he tried

602
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:15.839
to brush it off, and the group continued on into

603
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.559
the park. Hours later, the reality caught up to them.

604
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.759
Officers from the Gurney Police Department located Jeff and Darla

605
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.680
in the park and quietly pulled them aside. They told

606
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.359
Jeff that something terrible had happened back at home. Jeff

607
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:33.480
broke down, crying softly, while Darla tried to comfort him.

608
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:36.200
The rest of the group waited for several tens hours

609
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:40.039
for investigators from Indiana to arrive. In an instant, the

610
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:45.039
weekend's energy shifted from exhaustion and fun to complete confusion, fear,

611
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.640
and silence. So there are varying reports of what happened

612
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.400
here at Great America. The kids were put into this

613
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.519
room and they told like the whole group, there's fourteen

614
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:57.759
to sixteen of them, and some people said that Jeff

615
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.200
showed no emotion, but darified that he was crying and

616
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.240
he was really upset.

617
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:03.799
Interesting.

618
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.880
During the wait, police searched both Jeff and Darla's vehicles.

619
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.759
Investigators reported finding nothing immediately incriminating, though this may have

620
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.359
been when they collected a pair of genes that would

621
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:19.119
later become a focal point of the investigation, So try

622
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:23.440
to remember that, okay. Finally, around three thirty the following morning,

623
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.880
the group arrived back at the police station in Lakeville, Indiana,

624
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:30.440
where Jeff's grandparents were waiting. The rest of the teenagers,

625
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:34.519
including Darla, were allowed to leave. Before they separated, Jeff

626
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.279
turned to Darla, I didn't do this. You believe me,

627
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.720
don't you. I don't know, she replied. Just steps from

628
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:45.240
the church where families had gathered for Sunday worship, investigators

629
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:49.319
entered a scene of staggering violence inside the quiet, whitewashed

630
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.599
parsonage next door. There was no sign of forest entry.

631
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:56.559
Police quickly ruled out a murder suicide. No weapon had

632
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.680
been left behind, and investigators could find no spent shell

633
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.519
case anywhere inside the house. Bob, Don, Janelle, and Jolene

634
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.640
had all been killed with deer slug rounds fired from

635
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:08.400
a shotgun.

636
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.199
An interesting point about no shell casings being found to me,

637
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:16.519
that says somebody who did this was trying to be

638
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:18.599
very careful, right exactly.

639
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.280
In later years, the investigation itself would face criticism. The

640
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.840
crime scene was never fingerprinted, and investigators failed to establish

641
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:31.719
a formal time of death using body temperature, rigor mortis

642
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.960
or lividity measurements. Those emissions would later become central points

643
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.800
of contention as questions surrounding the case continued to grow.

644
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.480
Bob Helly was found lying on his back in the

645
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:46.119
hallway near the bedrooms. Nearby, a pen in scattered papers

646
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:48.800
appeared to mark the place where he had collapsed. He

647
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:51.480
had been shot twice from only a few feet away,

648
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.239
once in the chest and once in the neck. So

649
00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:56.280
that's why they thought they knew it wasn't a murder

650
00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:59.599
suicide because he'd been shot twice. One of the blasts

651
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:03.800
severed his spinal cord almost instantly. Investigators also noted that

652
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.320
Bob was still wearing his shoes, despite Don's strict no

653
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:11.119
shoe policy inside the house, a detail suggesting he may

654
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:13.679
have stepped outside shortly before the shootings to tend to

655
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:17.320
something urgent. In a basement, Don and her daughters were

656
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:21.000
found together. Don appeared to have been shot first. Nearby.

657
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:23.920
Six year old Joline was found clinging to her mother,

658
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.679
while eight year old Janelle lay close to Don's feet,

659
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.679
both girls seemingly seeking comfort from her. All three had

660
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:33.280
been shot at close range, within one or two feet.

661
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.559
This scene is just devastating to me, Like the little

662
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:39.320
girls are, you know, like clinging to their mob's side,

663
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:42.079
Which also tells you that the shots must have occurred

664
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:46.119
pretty quickly, because I think once she had been shot,

665
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:47.920
they would have run away.

666
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.119
Yeah, you would think. It's just so horrible to even

667
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:52.199
think about this scene.

668
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:56.280
The basement scene was horrific. Blood spatter and biological material

669
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.199
covered portions of the room. Investigators believed between five even

670
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.679
seven shotgun blasts had been fired inside the home. A

671
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:06.960
slug was later found lodged in a book in the basement,

672
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:11.280
while another apparent shotgun strike had gouged the drywall near

673
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:15.519
the basement's stairwell. Detectives theorized that Don may have run

674
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.000
downstairs trying to protect the girls in their basement bedroom,

675
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:20.960
while the killer followed behind her.

676
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.760
Do you know if the basement, if there wasn't a

677
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:25.679
way to exit the house from the basement, or did

678
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.199
you have to go up the stairs walk down stairs? Okay,

679
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:30.000
so they were kind of trapped down there.

680
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.440
Yeah, but the victims were wearing also offers a possible

681
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.800
clue about when they were killed. Don was dressed casually

682
00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:39.000
in jeans in a sweatshirt, while the girls wore t

683
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.880
shirts and shorts rather than pajamas or church clothes. The

684
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.599
girls normally went to bed around seven thirty or eight.

685
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.400
Their clothing suggests the murders likely occurred sometime during the

686
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.440
early evening hours, after the family had settled in for

687
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.280
the night, but before the girls had changed into their pajamas.

688
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:59.960
Elsewhere in the house, investigators noticed several details that stood out.

689
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.400
In the bathroom, three wash claws of barying degrees of

690
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.119
dampness hung over the side of the tub. One of

691
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.360
the detectives later noted water droplets still visible on the

692
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.280
bath mat, along with traces of blood found in the

693
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:16.440
tub and on near by tile. Investigators suspected the killer

694
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.119
may have showered after the murders. In the primary bedroom,

695
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.320
a wooden gun rack hung above the bed. A bow

696
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.920
and arrow remained in place, but the shotgun usually stored

697
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.280
there was missing. In Jeff's bedroom, investigators found his baby

698
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.920
book open on the bed, our babies first seven years,

699
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:37.840
on the night of his senior prom one of the

700
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.760
last milestones before adulthood. The detail felt poignant. Was Jeff

701
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.000
feeling sentimental missing his mother? It's impossible to know, but

702
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:52.239
the image lingers. Downstairs, Bob Pelly's office remained largely untouched.

703
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.599
A bowl of popcorn sat on his desk, something family

704
00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:59.280
members said was part of his nightly routine. Investigators could

705
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:01.800
not determine whether it had been left there from the

706
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:06.599
previous evening or prepared more recently. Nearby, in the storage room,

707
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.199
beside the washer and dryer, investigators discovered a small load

708
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:13.760
of recently washed clothes inside the washing machine. Hid him.

709
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.000
Beneath a pile of sleeping bags was a nylon carrying

710
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.920
case designed for a shotgun. The clothes found in the

711
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.440
washing machine is also a significant detail that we will

712
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:28.360
talk about later. There are varying reports. There was a

713
00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.280
T shirt that Jeff had been wearing earlier in two socks,

714
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.840
and there was also a pair of jeans that we

715
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:40.440
talked about that earlier. It was questionable whether the jeans

716
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:41.760
were in that load.

717
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.840
Or whether they were in his car. Yeah, okay.

718
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.039
Police quickly learned that seventeen year old Jeff Pelly had

719
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.079
attended prom the night before and was now at six

720
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.400
Flags Great America in Gurney, Illinois, roughly two and a

721
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.599
half hours away. Fourteen year old Jackie was attending church

722
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:01.920
camp at Huntington College. Jessica had spent the weekend at

723
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.519
a sleepover with a friend, and this detail is devastating

724
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.880
because Janelle was supposed to go to the sleepover, but

725
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:11.159
at the last minute Don said, you know, why don't

726
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:12.239
you stay home instead?

727
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.320
Oh gosh, that is so horrible. I can't imagine the

728
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.639
girls that survived, how much guilt they must have.

729
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:23.679
Telately, Almost immediately, Jeff became an early focus of the investigation.

730
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:28.039
As investigators processed the scene, Jackie and Jessica were brought

731
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.639
back to the parsonage and informed that their family had

732
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:34.639
been killed. Meanwhile, officers had a degreat America to interview

733
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:38.559
Jeff Bob's former in laws. Joy's parents, Mary and jack

734
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.360
Armstrong traveled from Kentucky to care for Jeff and Jackie

735
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.599
Don's surviving daughter. Jessica was taken by her parents, Edward

736
00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.960
and Laura Hayes, back to their home and Eton Rapids, Michigan,

737
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:54.320
and the days that followed, investigators concentrated heavily on locating

738
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.320
the missing shotgun. Detectives believed that if Jeff was responsible,

739
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:01.119
he would have had little time to dispose of the weapon.

740
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:06.000
Search teams combed ditches, wooded areas, streams, and farm fields

741
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.280
along the roads Jeff had traveled. Divers searched au pond

742
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:14.119
across from Olive Branch Church, search dogs tracked nearby woods,

743
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:19.280
while mounted search teams swept the surrounding countryside. Investigators even

744
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.599
sifted through the trash collected from the local gas stations.

745
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:27.519
Despite the massive search effort, the murder weapon was never recovered.

746
00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.360
Wow, that's really interesting because it would be hard to

747
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.039
you know, in the route that he had to take

748
00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:37.119
from home to meeting his friends. Like you said, he

749
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.320
wouldn't have had a lot of time to dispose of it,

750
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:41.280
so it's a kind of a limited area.

751
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:44.639
Right, definitely. But there are some reports that Jeff turned

752
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:47.800
like the opposite way, so it's you know, it's possible

753
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.079
that you know, they weren't looking in the right places.

754
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.360
Either, could have only gone so far.

755
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.239
Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

756
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.320
Prosecutors would later argue that the murders occurred in the

757
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:11.159
narrow window between the other teenagers leaving the parsonage and

758
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:15.440
Jeff appearing at the Amaico station around five seventeen pm.

759
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.719
It was a tight timeline. So remind me, when do

760
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.639
we think the other teenagers left the parsonage.

761
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.360
We're going to talk about it quite a bit later,

762
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.559
but it was probably about four or fifty five, but

763
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.480
we don't know for sure. And something to think about

764
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.440
in this case is everyone has a different watch. Everyone

765
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.679
has a different time, right, So the employee at the

766
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:37.760
ama Coo station looks at his watch as it's five

767
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.199
to seventeen, but that doesn't mean it's five seventeen. And

768
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.960
the house where Jeff went, where Darla was getting ready

769
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.280
and he was going to change into his tucks there too.

770
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:49.679
The mom at that house said that she thought Jeff

771
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:53.039
was there by five thirty, and she tended to have

772
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.920
her clocks run ten minutes fast. Okay, so he was

773
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:59.599
actually there earlier, Okay, then she thought.

774
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.480
According to their theory, Jeff somehow managed to murder four

775
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:07.119
members of his family, clean himself up, collect the shotgun

776
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:11.039
shell casings, close the curtains throughout the house, lock the doors,

777
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:14.440
dispose of the murder weapon and other evidence, and then

778
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:19.519
continue on to Prom, appearing calm and composed. For investigators,

779
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.679
the conflict between Bob and Jeff over Prom became the

780
00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:27.039
clearest possible motive. They believed Jeff was desperate to regain

781
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.320
his freedom, spend the weekend with his friends, and avoid

782
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:33.480
the humiliation of having his strict father show for him

783
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.920
around town all evening. There may have been additional pressure

784
00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:40.360
from Darla as well. She later admitted that Bob Pelly

785
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:43.280
made her uncomfortable and that she did not want him

786
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:46.960
driving them to Prom. According to Darla, if Jeff was

787
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:50.239
barred from the pre and post prom activities, she still

788
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:52.559
intended to attend without him.

789
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.920
So if you recall on it was about Wednesday, Jeff

790
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:59.000
called Darla and he told her where in the clear?

791
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.280
Dad said that I can go, and she was really relieved.

792
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.719
Okay. During the police interview, Jeff's grandparents were allowed to

793
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.760
sit with him because he was still a minor. Detectives

794
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:12.800
immediately viewed him as either a suspect or, at the

795
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.880
very least, a critical person of interest. Jeff came across

796
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:21.800
as intelligent, articulate, and composed. Some investigators later said they

797
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:27.159
found him unsettlingly polished. Others believed detectives developed tunnel vision

798
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:30.719
early on and began interpreting his behavior through the lens

799
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.480
of guilt. Investigators noted that Jeff did not appear emotional

800
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:37.599
enough for someone who had just lost four family members,

801
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:41.320
and that he occasionally laughed at inappropriate moments.

802
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:44.920
So I didn't include a clip, but you can listen

803
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:49.079
to the Counterclock podcast, which I highly recommend. There's also

804
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.079
an episode of forty eight Hours that has a lot

805
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.039
of the interview in it too, or you can just

806
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:59.639
click around YouTube and find Jeff talking. He seemed very

807
00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:02.440
earnest to me in those interviews.

808
00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.800
And as we've talked about before, people react to this

809
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.000
kind of thing in very different ways, and especially a

810
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:09.920
seventeen year old. I think it's hard to predict how

811
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:12.159
a seventeen year old is going to behave.

812
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:16.599
And remember when Joy died, Bob encouraged the kids to

813
00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:19.800
kind of stuff down their emotions and said, you know,

814
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:21.599
you shouldn't grieve in public.

815
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:25.880
When detectives questioned him about weapons inside the home, Jeff

816
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:29.239
described several firearms his father had owned over the years.

817
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.039
He mentioned a bow and arrow hanging above Bob and

818
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:36.320
Don's bed, a shotgun, possibly a Mossberg twenty gage that

819
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:39.079
Bob had given him for Christmas in nineteen eighty seven,

820
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:41.880
and a pistol that had belonged to his late mother

821
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:45.639
and was eventually supposed to be his. He also recalled

822
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:50.039
other firearms Bob had owned at various times, including multiple shotguns,

823
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:53.480
a twenty two rifle, and two twenty two caliber pistols,

824
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:57.719
one of them a semi automatic handgun with interchangeable barrels

825
00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:01.400
and a high capacity magazine. Although there was no record

826
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:06.199
of Bob ever purchasing ammunition, Jeff told investigators that after

827
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:09.119
he threatened to take his own life, Bob removed all

828
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:12.079
the firearms from the house, though he wasn't sure where

829
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:14.960
they went. Jeff said the incident had not been a

830
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.119
genuine suicide attempt, but rather an impulsive outburst after he

831
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:22.079
was caught shoplifting at Target and grounded for the summer.

832
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.880
Others who remembered the episode, however, described it as far

833
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:30.760
more serious and deeply concerning. During questioning, Jeff spoke openly

834
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.280
about the complicated emotions he carried toward Dawn, though he

835
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:39.000
insisted he genuinely loved his younger stepsisters. By most accounts,

836
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.519
Jeff and Don did not openly despise one another. What

837
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:46.079
seemed to trouble him more was the lingering grief surrounding

838
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:49.199
his mother's death and how quickly the family structure had

839
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:53.599
changed afterward. Jeff admitted that after Bob remarried and entered

840
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.400
the ministry, he felt like he lost the version of

841
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.440
his father that he had once known. While Jeff had

842
00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.239
always been closer to his mother, I and Bob had

843
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:07.079
once shared a lighter, easier relationship, playing baseball, joking around,

844
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:11.880
spending time together. Over time, that connections slowly faded. At

845
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:14.239
the same time, the shift in Bob may not have

846
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:17.880
been entirely surprising. Becoming a pastor placed him in a

847
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:22.760
highly visible public role, one that carried expectations of discipline, morality,

848
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.960
and order, while Jeff himself had begun exhibiting increasingly troubling

849
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:31.760
behavior during adolescence. Friends and family later described a father

850
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:34.559
and son who seemed trapped in a cycle of conflict,

851
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:39.159
neither fully understood how to stop. Investigators were also searching

852
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:42.480
for physical signs that Jeff had recently fired a shotgun

853
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.119
or been involved in a violent struggle. At five foot

854
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:49.599
seven and roughly one hundred and forty pounds, detectives believed

855
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.880
repeatedly firing a shotgun loaded with deer slugs would likely

856
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:57.480
have left significant bruising or recoil marks on his shoulder.

857
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:01.840
At the station, Jeff was photographed nearly nude, so investigators

858
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:07.199
could document any bruises, scratches, recoil injuries, or defensive wounds.

859
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:11.440
They found none, not even a scratch on him. Detectives

860
00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:15.400
also chose not to perform gunshot residue testing, believing too

861
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.280
much time had passed for the results to have evidentiary value.

862
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:22.400
Jeff not having any bruising surprised me. From what I

863
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:26.000
know of shotguns most people, especially if he did it

864
00:47:26.679 --> 00:47:29.559
and he shot at least five to seven times. He

865
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:30.960
probably would have had a bruise.

866
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:32.000
Yeah, it was a question.

867
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.079
I was going to ask listeners, but I ran out

868
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:35.480
of time.

869
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.039
But that's my understanding as well, is that that, you know,

870
00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:41.000
shooting a shotgun like that has a pretty serious recoil

871
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:45.119
and would definitely leave a bruise there. After the interview ended,

872
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:48.519
Jeff left with his grandparents and stayed at a nearby hotel.

873
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.639
An officer was stationed outside the room overnight. In fact,

874
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:56.519
investigators appeared to keep Jeff under near constant watch throughout

875
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.280
the week, though it was never entirely clear whether the

876
00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:03.639
surveillance intended to protect him or monitor him. Jeff agreed

877
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.440
to take a polygraph examination in South Bend on the

878
00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:10.800
evening of May one, but the situation quickly unraveled. Depending

879
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:14.480
on who tells the story, the details differed dramatically. What

880
00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:17.440
is clear is that Jeff never actually took the test.

881
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:22.360
Years later, Jeff claimed Lieutenant Brent Hemmerline, the officer assigned

882
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:26.639
to administer the polygraph, became aggressive once Jack Armstrong was

883
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.199
no longer in the room. I'm sorry, who's Jack.

884
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.039
Armstrong Jeff's grandfather?

885
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:35.719
Oh? Gotcha? According to Jeff, Hammerline yelled at him, pressured him,

886
00:48:35.719 --> 00:48:39.360
and pushed for a confession before the examination had even begun.

887
00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:43.760
Emmerline later testified that Jeff asked whether he would receive

888
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.760
the electric chair. Iff convicted, Jeff abruptly ended the session,

889
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:51.039
saying he needed to leave because he had plans with Darla.

890
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:55.840
As the weeks passed, investigators focused almost exclusively on Jeff.

891
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:59.880
Detectives never traveled to Florida to examine Bob Pelley's earlier

892
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.880
life or interview many of the people who had known

893
00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:06.440
him there, and there were aspects of Bob Pelly's life

894
00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.840
that arguably deserved a closer look.

895
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:11.159
So what do you think of this scene here with

896
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:14.519
the police. You know, he's got himself in a room

897
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:16.480
by himself, all of a sudden. It sounds like he

898
00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:17.920
went pretty hard on him.

899
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.119
I mean, that's according to Jeff. It seems it would

900
00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:24.400
seem unusual to me for a detective to go after

901
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:26.599
somebody like that right before they're about to sit down

902
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:27.800
for a polygraph.

903
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:31.360
I actually disagree. I think that they thought that Jeff

904
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:34.360
was guilty. They thought he was seventeen years old, and

905
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.639
we can easily intimidate this kid, and we can break him.

906
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.159
And I think that when they had the opportunity, that

907
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:41.320
they were trying to break him.

908
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:43.639
Yeah. Maybe, So it just seems the timing of doing

909
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:46.000
it right at the time they were doing the polygraph

910
00:49:46.039 --> 00:49:48.920
seems a bit odd to me, but you could be I.

911
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:52.360
Think that's common practice. Actually not always, but depending on

912
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:55.480
who is giving the polygraph. So I can tell that

913
00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:57.760
you don't agree with me here, and that's fine.

914
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:59.840
I really I honestly don't know. But it just se

915
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:02.280
if I was a cop, that seems like it would

916
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:03.840
be an odd thing to do, because I would think

917
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.119
a polygraph the idea is to get to the truth.

918
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.239
But I feel like they were trying to brattle him.

919
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.679
And Grandpa said that when he went to talk to Jeff,

920
00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.880
Jeff was sobbing. He was really upset about the whole incident.

921
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.760
Okay, that could be. I could definitely be wrong about that,

922
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:19.320
but you.

923
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.880
Know, the police officer did have a different theory of

924
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:25.000
what happened there too. I would think most seventeen year

925
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.480
olds or most miners would have a hard time passing

926
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.400
a polygraph exam. I think they would be really nervous.

927
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:34.119
I think most human beings regardless of age. That's how

928
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:35.719
I feel like if I was. We talk about this

929
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:36.239
all the time.

930
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:38.239
I thought you always said that you could pass it.

931
00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:40.280
No, No, I don't think so. I think I would

932
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:42.840
be so nervous that I would fail no matter what.

933
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:47.719
As investigators tried to piece together the family's final movements

934
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:52.000
on Saturday evening, they uncovered details that complicated the timeline

935
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:56.039
even further. One of those details came from Crystal. Easter Day,

936
00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.920
Bob and Don had planned to stop by her house

937
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.559
before prom and were expected to be there around five thirty,

938
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:05.800
but when they never arrived, Crystal and her date became

939
00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:09.320
concerned enough to drive out to the parsonage themselves. When

940
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:12.400
they pulled up around five forty five, the house appeared

941
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.159
dark and strangely quiet. The curtains were drawn, the doors

942
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:19.519
were locked. Bob and Don's vehicles were still parked outside,

943
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:23.440
but Jeff's silver Mustang was gone. That night, at Prom,

944
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:26.519
Kristel mentioned the visit to Jeff. She later recalled that

945
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:30.000
he had little reaction, but another account paints the moment

946
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:33.719
somewhat differently. According to the South Bend Tribune, Jeff had

947
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:36.840
actually asked Cristel during dinner whether she had seen his parents,

948
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.599
and she told him no. Investigators also spoke with the

949
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:45.119
parishioners Bob had visited earlier that afternoon. They remembered Bob

950
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:49.119
mentioning specifically that he planned to drive Jeff to prom

951
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:52.960
that evening, a detail that raised questions about whether Bob

952
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:56.920
had truly changed his mind about Jeff's punishment after all.

953
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:00.800
In fact, between Friday and Saturday, Bob told four different

954
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:03.880
people that he's still planned on driving Jeff to the prom.

955
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:06.760
Oh wow, before we go, I want to talk about

956
00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:11.599
the timeline. So this timeline is exceptionally tight, right, Depending

957
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.679
on which witness accounts were accurate, Prosecutors believed Jeff may

958
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:18.280
have had as little as ten minutes and perhaps no

959
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.719
more than twenty to accomplish all of the following. And

960
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.880
I let me know if you think of something else

961
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:27.079
that we might be missing here. Retrieve the murder weapon,

962
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.480
which may or may not have already been inside the home,

963
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:33.360
along with at least six shotgun shells, kill his father

964
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:38.039
upstairs and his stepmother and two stepsisters downstairs, reloading multiple

965
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.199
times depending on the type of shotgun used. The shotgun

966
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:45.000
that they believe he used, I think would hold five bullets,

967
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:46.840
no more than a five bullets, and we know that

968
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:51.119
six or seven bullets were probably shot. The murderer would

969
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:54.400
have to collect the spent shell casings from the crime scene,

970
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:58.199
cleaned themselves up, and wash the clothing so thoroughly that

971
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:01.880
later lab testing reported we found no blot evidence on

972
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.960
any of the clothing, but especially the jeens. Shower, change clothes,

973
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:08.840
and pack his tuxedo into the car, dispose of the

974
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:12.320
shotgun and shellcasing so completely that they were never recovered.

975
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:17.480
Just bite extensive police searches involving trained canines, and reinstall

976
00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:20.960
the part in his car that Bob had removed, and

977
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:25.119
then leave for the gas station before continuing on to prompt. So,

978
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:27.000
those are a lot of things to get done in

979
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:28.320
that window, right.

980
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:32.800
Yeah, especially the clean like the cleaning everything up, like cleaning, showering,

981
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:36.519
you know, changing his clothes, washing his clothes, things like that.

982
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.400
You know, the shooting itself. I think, okay, that you

983
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:42.559
know didn't necessarily have to take that long, and putting

984
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.119
a distributor cap back on your car is probably not

985
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.440
very long either, but it does seem like an awful

986
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:48.519
lot to have happened.

987
00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:50.760
In a very short contrience when you put them together.

988
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:53.840
And hiding the gun somewhere that is never found.

989
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:55.719
And it wasn't in the parsonage or in the church

990
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:59.000
as far as investigators know. So we know between four

991
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:02.599
thirty and five several friends stopped by the Pelly home

992
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:05.920
before prompt Jeff was not yet dressed in his tuxedo,

993
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.800
and some would later recall tension inside the home. At

994
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:14.280
around five PM, Kim, Oldenberg and others left the Pelly house.

995
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.519
Kim later stated that they arrived at another friend's house

996
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:22.199
at exactly five pm, helping investigators narrow the possible murder

997
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:25.119
window and the person. The house that Kim and her

998
00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:28.400
friends stopped by was a mile down the road, so

999
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.960
it probably wouldn't have taken more than, you know, two

1000
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.639
minutes to get there. To be generous, we can say

1001
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.239
that she left at four fifty five, so between five

1002
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:41.920
and five point fifteen. Investigators believe the murders likely occurred

1003
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:45.480
at five ten. Matt Miller, remember he's the guy that

1004
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:48.559
forgot the corsage. He went to go get it, so

1005
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:51.199
at five ten he drove back going the other way,

1006
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:55.440
and he saw Jeff's car there. At five twenty or

1007
00:54:55.519 --> 00:54:58.840
five seventeen, depending you know whose watch we look at.

1008
00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:01.679
Jeff arrived at the end. I'm a CO station, so

1009
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:03.760
we're not sure how long he was there, but he

1010
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:06.519
was there long enough to ask for a screwdriver and

1011
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.760
some cardboard, and he fiddled with the car for a

1012
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:11.239
few minutes, and then he also called Darla and said

1013
00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:13.880
he was running late. By five point thirty, I think

1014
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.719
he was with Darla at their friend's house. But at

1015
00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:21.440
five forty five, that's when Crystal Easter Day was at

1016
00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.800
the parsonage, and when the windows and doors were all

1017
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:29.199
locked and the parsonage was tight as a drum and

1018
00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:30.760
there was no activity whatsoever.

1019
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:33.599
Were there phone records from his call from the Yama

1020
00:55:33.679 --> 00:55:35.760
Co station, do we? Because that would give a very

1021
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:38.679
exact time if they were phone records, not.

1022
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.239
That I know of. That's where we're stopping for part one,

1023
00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:45.599
but in part two we will introduce some alternate theories.

1024
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:48.000
I hope you're going to tell me what actually happened

1025
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:49.519
in part two, but I'm guessing you're not.

1026
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:50.440
What do you mean?

1027
00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:52.840
I want to know, like the truth. I'm really baffled

1028
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:54.719
in this by this case so far.

1029
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:56.159
Why are you baffled?

1030
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:59.920
Just because I think there are there there's evidence that

1031
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:03.320
points both ways. I think there is evidence that points

1032
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:06.000
to Jeff. I do think that, you know, he's the

1033
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.840
most likely one to have been able to do this,

1034
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:10.880
but there's also things that just don't add up.

1035
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:12.800
I'm going to be honest with you. I don't want

1036
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:15.880
it to be Jeff. When I was, you know, researching,

1037
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:17.599
it was like, please don't let it be Jeff. Yeah,

1038
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:19.800
I mean, let there be another suspect.

1039
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:21.960
Yeah, I can understand that it would feel a little

1040
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.320
bit better. I don't know that seems weird to say,

1041
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:27.000
but you just hate to think of a seventeen year

1042
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:30.400
old kid killing a lot of members of his family, well,

1043
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:31.440
the whole the family.

1044
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:35.360
I feel so bad for the family, like they're all grieving. Yeah,

1045
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:38.800
you know, and grief is a long process and we

1046
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.199
try to rush it but it can't really be rushed.

1047
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.760
And I feel like Bob and down. They thought by

1048
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:48.239
getting married that it would be easier on the kids,

1049
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:50.599
but yeah, in someway, it made it harder.

1050
00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:54.840
How long after they got married did this the shooting happen?

1051
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:58.119
Like about two and a half years, Okay, so still

1052
00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:01.199
still relatively fresh, very fresh, Yeah.

1053
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:03.679
Do you think that Bob and Down rushed things.

1054
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.280
It certainly feels like it to me. I mean that's

1055
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.719
really especially with the kids, you know, still going through

1056
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.360
what they were all going through, like you said, grieving

1057
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:16.360
and trying to process the death of their parents at

1058
00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:18.920
a pretty young age. It does seem very quick to

1059
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.800
kind of, you know, get married again and expect your

1060
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.960
kids to start calling this new woman mom, and it

1061
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:27.000
just it seems like it's asking a lot of your

1062
00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:28.679
kids to adapt to that, and.

1063
00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:31.880
Because of the long distance relationship, they weren't able to

1064
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:35.000
spend much time together before you know, they became mom

1065
00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:35.360
and dad.

1066
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:36.000
Yeah.

1067
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:39.400
Do you think that investigators honed in too quickly on Jeff?

1068
00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:42.119
I mean it sure, it kind of seems that way

1069
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.800
to me, based on what you've what you've told me.

1070
00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:49.159
You didn't really say anything about any other suspects or

1071
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.639
looking at anything outside of Jeff. I can understand that

1072
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.079
he would be the prime suspect based on everything that

1073
00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:58.199
they that they knew at that time. But at the

1074
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:01.280
same time, you probably want to keep your options open

1075
00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:02.679
early in the investigation.

1076
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.480
I mean, absolutely, your obligation is to follow up on every.

1077
00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:10.000
Lead, but I guess the question would be whether there

1078
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:12.800
was any evidence that pointed anywhere else. I mean, it

1079
00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:16.440
seems like there was some things that didn't necessarily fit

1080
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:19.280
with Jeff doing it. But at the same time, I

1081
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.039
didn't really hear anything that pointed to, you know, someone else.

1082
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.000
I didn't hear anything about like, oh, there was footprints

1083
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:27.840
that didn't belong to anybody outside the house, or somebody

1084
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:29.719
spotted a strange car, you know what I mean, So

1085
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:31.360
it doesn't I didn't hear anything.

1086
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:35.239
We will have alternate theories in part two. I'm not

1087
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:37.519
sure if I did a good enough job talking about

1088
00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:41.800
the crime scene, because there weren't bloody handprints or fingerprints

1089
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:44.400
or footprints. The scene was very.

1090
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.320
Clean, which is really shocking with a death, with a murder,

1091
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:50.760
murders of that nature, with a shotgun like that, it's

1092
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.599
got to be a very It was a grizzly some scene.

1093
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:58.360
Yeah, And the investigators said that whoever committed those murders,

1094
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:00.960
you know, would be right.

1095
00:59:01.000 --> 00:59:03.719
I would think there would be. It would be you

1096
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:05.559
would have a hard time getting out of there without

1097
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:09.360
leaving bloody footprints, bloody fingerprints, bloody clothing.

1098
00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:13.480
Do you think that going to prom is motive enough.

1099
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.199
I mean, you know, it's hard to get inside the

1100
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:19.000
mind of a seventeen year old kid. And you know,

1101
00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:22.840
of course, it seems like that would be a huge

1102
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.719
overreaction obviously to being not allowed to go to prom.

1103
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:29.840
But something that Jackie said Jeff's sister, was that he

1104
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.480
was almost eighteen. He was seventeen and a half, he'd

1105
00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:35.800
finished high school, he had a job, like he could

1106
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:36.920
have just left.

1107
00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:39.960
But at that age it might be hard to conceive

1108
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:42.800
that you could you could just leave right so, and

1109
00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:45.960
he might have thought that his dad would not allow him, Yeah.

1110
00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:48.519
From and grab him by his ear and pull him out.

1111
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:51.679
Do you consider it odd that Bob was taking pictures

1112
00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:53.760
of these other kids, but as far as we know,

1113
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:56.360
he didn't take any pictures of Jeff. Or he wasn't like, hey,

1114
00:59:56.679 --> 00:59:58.639
you know, can I take some pictures of you and Darla,

1115
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:01.159
I'll meet up with you, you know, if he had

1116
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:02.719
agreed to let Jeff go.

1117
01:00:03.159 --> 01:00:04.599
Yeah, it seems very odd to me.

1118
01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:07.159
We're going to keep coming back to the timeline. But

1119
01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:08.920
do you feel like the timeline is feasible?

1120
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.800
Feasible but very very difficult, very tight.

1121
01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:15.360
I have some theories that I will tell you at

1122
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:18.320
the end of part two. My last question is do

1123
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:20.559
you think that a seventeen year old could pull off

1124
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:22.800
the perfect murder by accident?

1125
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:27.039
Maybe? I don't feel like you could plan whoever did

1126
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:29.159
this did? I think it would be very hard to

1127
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.639
plan it and get away without leaving. Like I said,

1128
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.239
bloody footprints, bloody fingerprints, anything like that. I think you

1129
01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:36.400
would have to get very lucky.

1130
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:38.360
Yeah, well, please come back for part two.

1131
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:40.599
I will definitely come back for part two.

1132
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:42.320
I hope the cats come back to.

1133
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:43.639
Yeah, they've been great.

1134
01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:52.519
They've been in and out of this room. So did

1135
01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:53.840
it all come back to you or a lot of

1136
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:55.239
it come back to you from the podcast?

1137
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:56.119
Oh? Absolutely?

1138
01:00:56.119 --> 01:00:58.519
Did Do you remember the alternate theories at all?

1139
01:00:58.920 --> 01:00:59.920
No? Not really.

1140
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:02.320
I don't think we finished it unless you finished it.

1141
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:06.239
I don't think I did. Yeah, I'm terrible about things

1142
01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:08.400
like that. I'll start a podcast or a show or

1143
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:10.119
something and then I'll just kind of forget about it

1144
01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:10.840
after a while.

1145
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:14.360
I think the Counterclock podcast did an excellent job, but

1146
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:17.719
there were several episodes that felt like were complete rabbit

1147
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:20.360
holes in my opinion. So if you have listened to it,

1148
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:22.400
let me know what you think. So there is a

1149
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:26.440
TikTok trend right now, and you know us for yeah,

1150
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:30.440
the latest trends. But what is your your five personal

1151
01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:34.360
horror horror movies? And these are things that you find

1152
01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:36.880
scary the other people might not. They don't have to

1153
01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:39.599
be really scary, just they can be silly things. I

1154
01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:40.960
gave you a heads up that I was going to

1155
01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:41.400
ask you.

1156
01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:44.880
This, yeah, and I promptly forgot about it and then

1157
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:47.159
and I still I haven't watched any tiktoks that have

1158
01:01:47.280 --> 01:01:49.320
done this, so I'm not really quite sure. But I

1159
01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.719
went to things that like are my phobias right, Like spiders,

1160
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:57.199
so like the movie a rack and phobia is terrifying.

1161
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.239
But my I have refused to ever watch the movie

1162
01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:01.400
because you've never watched that.

1163
01:02:01.599 --> 01:02:02.719
No, it's a great movie.

1164
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:04.920
If you ask to watch it every Halloween. I'm like no,

1165
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:07.519
because I know that it would, you know, kind of

1166
01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.599
trigger me, even though I don't have a huge spider fear.

1167
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.039
Yeah, so I have a huge spider fear, meaning a

1168
01:02:14.119 --> 01:02:16.960
fear of huge spiders. So when I think of my

1169
01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:20.639
personal horror movie, it's sat in Australia or they have

1170
01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:24.320
these gigantic spiders, these Huntsman spiders that will be up

1171
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.400
in the corner of your house, or they will be

1172
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:30.280
on the visor of your car, and you'll like, as

1173
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:31.000
they stay there.

1174
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:32.440
To keep cool, get in your car.

1175
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:34.400
I don't know, they find a way and then you

1176
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:36.360
you're driving along and you pull down the visor and

1177
01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:39.320
this gigantic spider falls on your lap. That's that is

1178
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:40.360
my nightmare.

1179
01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:41.679
That's yeah, that's a good one.

1180
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:42.119
Yeah.

1181
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:45.639
I am more scared of snakes than spiders are. Yeah.

1182
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:47.639
I feel like it's either or for a lot of people.

1183
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:49.719
I just feel like snakes don't normally come in your

1184
01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:53.280
house and you know, crawl into your mouth or your ear.

1185
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:55.639
Didn't we have one in our house one.

1186
01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:58.599
Time a spider or a snake fell out, A spider

1187
01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:01.880
a snake. I don't don't recall having any snakes in

1188
01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:03.280
our house. That would sometimes I think I.

1189
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:06.320
Would remember, if her memory is real or not, remember

1190
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:08.400
the one house we had where they were always like

1191
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.199
in the window well, And I don't know if that's

1192
01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:13.199
a real memory. Like I'm thinking that I got in

1193
01:03:13.199 --> 01:03:14.679
the house went up and that probably did.

1194
01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:15.840
I don't think that.

1195
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:18.760
Okay, tell me the rest of your fears or your

1196
01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:20.239
personal horror movies.

1197
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.159
Well, I'm not a big fan of flying, so being

1198
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:27.239
trapped in a small metal can flying, you know, thirty

1199
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:29.639
five thousand feet in the air, and having no control

1200
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:32.000
over anything. That's the thing that gets me. There is

1201
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:34.800
like being in your seat someone else's control. You have

1202
01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:37.280
no idea. That's why you never lived there or what

1203
01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:38.480
there did is why I don't let.

1204
01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:40.840
Them even together. For two hundred and twelve years and

1205
01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:42.559
I think I've driven like six times.

1206
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:44.440
Yeah, I know I do have them.

1207
01:03:44.519 --> 01:03:47.039
And those are like when you've had a dental or

1208
01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:49.360
medical procedure then I have to drive home.

1209
01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:52.440
Yeah, I have a serious control issue. The other one

1210
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:54.199
is being without Wi Fi.

1211
01:03:56.320 --> 01:03:58.239
Oh good god, I have the worst.

1212
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:03.519
Guys. It's like the feeling of rage, like when you

1213
01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:07.039
can't get online and you need to do something, or

1214
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.679
when you have an important question you have to answer,

1215
01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:12.119
like who is that actor that was in that one.

1216
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:13.920
Show Spider in Austria Rare?

1217
01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:15.920
Yeah, I hate that girl.

1218
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:18.199
I don't know. I think I think you need to

1219
01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:18.840
cut the cord.

1220
01:04:19.079 --> 01:04:22.119
I think we need no absolutely.

1221
01:04:22.039 --> 01:04:24.280
Day this weekend with no electronics in.

1222
01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:25.880
Your hands for Saturday.

1223
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:28.159
Yeah, I mean we're both on screens way too much,

1224
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:31.920
totally that response is a little scary for me.

1225
01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:37.960
Okay, My last two are really about my own anxieties.

1226
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:42.119
So one is being late for things. So my personal

1227
01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:44.840
horror movie is showing up like five minutes late for

1228
01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:45.760
an appointment.

1229
01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:48.320
I don't have that one, but that is totally one

1230
01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:51.760
of mine too, which I know's crazy because everyone's late,

1231
01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:54.840
but I hate even it's like two minutes, I'll call

1232
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:57.199
the dentist and there was like, okay, we'll see how when.

1233
01:04:57.159 --> 01:05:01.360
You get here. Really didn't need to make that call. Yeah,

1234
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:04.039
I get very anxious, which is why I'm hardly ever

1235
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:07.239
relate to anything. And then my last one is the

1236
01:05:07.639 --> 01:05:10.440
idea of walking out to speak in front of a

1237
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:14.000
crowd of people and completely forgetting what you were going

1238
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:18.760
to say and just like blanking and panicking. That terrifies me.

1239
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.480
Wow, So you have a lot of anxieties. I do,

1240
01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:25.400
all right, Well, some of mine are maybe they're just

1241
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:28.639
different than yours. But my number one is having like

1242
01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:30.920
you or one of our kids or a close friend

1243
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:35.719
be diagnosed with the terminal illness. I'm glad you're laughing

1244
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:39.519
about it, because like, compared to yours, well, it's just.

1245
01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:42.000
You know, when I thought about this again I had.

1246
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:44.559
I never watched any tiktoks or anything on this, so

1247
01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:47.840
I didn't neither. I wasn't quite sure what I'm like. Okay,

1248
01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:50.400
I was trying to keep it a little like lighter.

1249
01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:53.559
No, and I think that was what you should have done. Okay,

1250
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:55.440
But you know, I just I worry about you guys

1251
01:05:55.480 --> 01:05:58.840
all the time. And yeah, okay, the other one, this

1252
01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:01.599
one's kind of very very serious too, but the rest aren't.

1253
01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:04.920
But bankruptcy due to medical or legal that I worry

1254
01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:05.960
about that all the time.

1255
01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:08.519
That is something definitely worth worrying about.

1256
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:15.639
Due point above sixty. I hate humidity. Someone to ask

1257
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.679
to see my feet or take a picture of my feet.

1258
01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:22.400
This one's lame, but I couldn't think of another. A

1259
01:06:22.519 --> 01:06:24.280
last one. But I did like your late one because

1260
01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:27.079
that is totally me too. But having no book, which

1261
01:06:27.159 --> 01:06:29.840
is different than yours, I guess about having no internet.

1262
01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:32.800
Yeah, well, seeing as most of the books we read

1263
01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:36.519
now are usually on you know, an electronic device, it's.

1264
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:38.000
But once I put it on my Kindle, I put

1265
01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:40.079
my Kindle in airplane mode. And I tend to put

1266
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.639
like five books on my Kindle at a time, like

1267
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:45.119
get them from the library and then never mind, that's

1268
01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:46.119
a whole other episode.

1269
01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:48.679
Yeah, it would be a sad world without books. Do

1270
01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:51.159
you remember Do you remember the twilight Zone episode. There

1271
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:53.199
was a Twilight Zone episode. There was a guy he

1272
01:06:53.320 --> 01:06:56.920
loved books so much, and then the world there was

1273
01:06:56.920 --> 01:06:59.440
like the apocalypse and he was the only one left,

1274
01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:01.800
and he was so happy because he had this library

1275
01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:03.360
full of books and he was like going to read

1276
01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:05.239
for the rest of his life. And then he broke

1277
01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:08.119
He broke his glasses. That was the twist ending of

1278
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:09.119
the Twilight Zone.

1279
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:13.360
So he couldn't read, couldn't he Just like on Lost

1280
01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:16.880
or uh, the Walking Dead, they would just find like

1281
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:18.000
other people's glasses.

1282
01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:20.320
Yeah, I don't think. I don't know. I don't know

1283
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:22.320
why he couldn't do that, but I think it. Yeah,

1284
01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:24.360
it was the twist that had to be there too.

1285
01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:26.199
I thought you were going to talk about the Twilight

1286
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:31.119
Zone episode talking Tina or talk I don't know.

1287
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:35.800
My name is Tina and I don't like you very much. Classic.

1288
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:38.840
Well, I think that's all we have for today. Thank

1289
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:40.960
you so much for hanging out with us and listening.

1290
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:43.400
If you want to listen to part two right now,

1291
01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:46.639
join us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash

1292
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:50.079
Love Mary Kill. Remember we're a two person team and

1293
01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:53.400
put an enormous amount of research, writing, and production work

1294
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.960
into every episode. If you enjoy the podcast and want

1295
01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:59.400
to help support the work we do, we try to

1296
01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.039
keep it simple with just one tier for five dollars

1297
01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:04.679
a month. Your support truly means a lot to us.

1298
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:09.440
Please find us on social media, Rate review, follow, subscribe.

1299
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:13.239
I'm sorry, but we're no longer on TikTok. Oh, we're

1300
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:15.760
on TikTok, but I'm not really posting any.

1301
01:08:15.559 --> 01:08:17.880
Content lately that wasn't get a lot of traction.

1302
01:08:18.039 --> 01:08:21.279
Yeah, but we are, yes, so you can find us

1303
01:08:21.319 --> 01:08:21.960
there as well.

1304
01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:24.680
Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill

1305
01:08:24.680 --> 01:09:06.560
your husband.