Pelley Family Murders - Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill. Hey Rich. Happy Thursday. Well, happy Monday to everyone, but it's Thursday for. Us, Hi, Tina, Happy Thursday to you as well. Do you have your white pants and shoes dusted off and ready to go? Yes? I am so ready to wear white clothing again.

0:44 Listeners, I never buy rich white clothing. Well, they're not very white anymore, are they. I didn't even realize it was Memorial Day weekend coming out today. As this episode drops its Memorial Day, someone asked today, Oh, do you guys want to do something Monday? And I was like, I know. It's kind of nice when these things happened because I forget about it too, And now I'm like, oh, I have a three day weekend. That's pretty cool. I hope that we don't accidentally slip up and reveal like who did the murder beforehand, like Jeff Probes did, laugh Nando and Survivor that was bananas. It was bananas because I never I thought, oh, I must have missed something. We're trying to rewind and we.

1:24 Should probably explain for people who maybe aren't big Survivor fans, but they have the live finale and Jeff Probes, the host, messed up and revealed who was in. The final three is Yeah, which really wasn't as big of a deal as it seemed at the It. Was pretty embarrassing because it was live, and it was like the audience that was there was like kind of gasped because they asked for sure. And then it felt so bad. I don't think a lot of people realized that his brother passed away, like within the last week. Oh I didn't know that. I forgot to tell you that. But yeah, so I feel like he's been through a lot and preparing for this live you know, season Nelly was a big team. But enough about Survivor. Let's move on to Emily in Paris.

2:08 I know that's one of your favorite shows. It's actually a show that no one likes. But it's been on for six seasons and I just just read before we started recording that it's ending after six years. No one likes it. No, it's like I hate everyone hate watches it. Really Okay, I've heard the name, but I really I know. It's a pretty bad show. But if you like fashion, like the fashion is pretty good. I used to watch it on the treadmill, but I was like, I think I've watched three seasons of it. I'll probably finish it eventually. But why would you watch three seasons of a show that's really bad? Because I keep waiting for it to get better, just like people keep listening to her podcast, Year. Four, Your four is going to be the year it gets better.

2:50 So I know that you know the case that we are doing today, but you said you don't remember it. Well. I think it's a case about somebody named Tony because I got a text from you like an hour ago, and all it said was Tony Carruthers, And so I'm like, is that the case? It was so funny you said that. When we sat down to record, You're like, oh, it's just the Corruller's case, And I was like, what are you talking about? You said I say, I was like, I did not send you that text, us you did, but I did. I have no idea what that is about. All the text said was Tony Carruthers, and you don't know what it was about. No, I don't know if I thought I was leaving myself a no, is this were you? I wish I knew, because I really have. I guess I should just give it a Google. But we'll worry about that later. Okay, So I did bring you a snack, but I feel like you always just hit it out of the ballpark. Again, I know, I don't, don't because I was really stressed this week. This was a bit off more than I could chew.

3:49 And it's always bad when you're starting the snack with a lot of disclaimers, so you should just kind of come out with it. I don't do that great with snacks. Something I do gas station snacks. Sometimes this is. More of a well it kind of has a fun angle. A snack doesn't always have to be a you know, homemade special. Right, And I feel like sometimes it's good when you have something listeners can get at home. Yeah, but one thing I brought you was I went to the local bushes mart market place and I got you some star spangled vanilla cake fight really good. They have like little memorial like where you know, red, white and blue stars on them. But the other thing I did you were eating some chips today and you said, well, they.

4:30 Were Better Made brand chips, which are made in Michigan. Yourself here because this is I feel bad as a Michigander, but I think they're not very good. So I went and I and I told you, well, I feel like the Better Made barbecue chips are the best barbecue chips around. So I went to the grocery store. I was kind of embarrassed because I bought three bags of barbecued potato chips. They're probably like, why does this lady need three different But anyway, so I'm going to have you do a little taste test three chips, and you're going to pick your favorite. Okay, potato excellent for exciting, So I gave you three different chips. Which one was your favorite?

5:11 I think number two was my favorite. They all tasted very similar to me, but number two were a little thicker and heartier. Number I think number two is my favorite. Number three was my second. Had a little bit of a zing to it. Number one least favorite. Okay, Number one was Lays. Oh you love Lay's potato chips. That's your favorite potato ches? Right two was Bushes, our local market brand they do make a good potato chips. I actually didn't really like that one number three was the better maid, so you did not go for the better made, which I thought you would. Interesting. They all tasted very similar to I mean, that's. The I should have given you a palette cleanser, because. Yeah, I did have the little cupcake as a palate cleanser, and that was actually really good. Reminded me a lot of like a little Debbie type cake. Very basic cake.

5:56 Cake in the little uh cake bite, but they don't look like real cake bites. They look like a piece of cake that's been dipped in. A cake bite is supposed to be a cake. That swushed together. All right, Ready to get to today's case. Sure. On the morning of April thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, families filtered into Olive Branch United Brethren Church in Christ in rural Lakeland, Indiana, a few miles south of South Bend. Sunday services were still half an hour away, but the quiet church grounds were already beginning to stir as cars rolled into the gravel parking lot just after nine am. Next to the church sat the whitewashed parsonage, where Reverend Bob Pelly lived with his wife down and their recently blended family. The modest home had three bedrooms, two bathrooms, an eden kitchen, a living room, and a partially finished basement.

6:46 Its doors were usually open to friends and church members dropping by throughout the week. The congregation was small, only about one hundred members, with perhaps half attending on any given Sunday, and many had known one another for years, even decades. On that picture perfect spring morning, parishioners lingered beside their cars, chatting and greeting friends before the service. Eleven year old Stephanie Fagin and her father were always among the first to arrive. Mister Fagan's job was to prepare the church for the upcoming service, while Stephanie usually headed straight to the parsonage. She was close friends with Jessica, Janelle, and Jolene, and each Sunday she was welcomed inside for breakfast with the Pellies before church. She especially loved Don's pancakes.

7:31 The door was always open and Stephanie knew to let herself in, but on this Sunday, the front door was locked. She tried the others and found them locked too. The garage door was closed, the curtains tightly drawn for a family of seven. The house was unnervingly quiet. Stephanie went to find her father, and she told him that something felt wrong. By now, Reverend Pelly should have already unlocked the church. Some assumed the family had simply overslept. As the congregation grew restless, a young pastor and training stepped in to begin the service. Still, several church board members remained uneasy. David Hathaway, a World War II veteran and longtime member of the Olive Branch church, remembered that he had a key to the parsonage at home. Since he only lived a mile away, he drove to retrieve it.

8:20 When Hathaway returned, he discovered that the key no longer worked. Linda May easter Day quietly left the service under way inside the church and offered her key instead. This time, the lot clicked open. Hathaway stepped inside. The house was perfectly still and quiet. He called out, but no one answered. Then he noticed Bob Pelly's glasses lying on the floor, and that instant he knew something was horribly wrong. As Hathaway moved down the hallway towards the bedrooms, he found Bob thirty eight years old, lying face up on the hardwood floor with gunshot wounds to his chest and face. Dave immediately backed away, hurried to the kitchen, called knight, and left the home to avoid disturbing the scene. Shaken and horrified, Hathaway returned to the church to tell the others what he had found. Pray for them, he urged, pray for them hard. When Saint Joseph County first responders arrived, they searched the basement. Dave Hathaway followed close behind. There they discovered three more bodies. Don Pelly, thirty one, Bob's wife of two years, and her daughters from her previous marriage, Janelle eight and Joe Lene's six. Three members of the Pelly family were missing from the home that morning, seventeen year old Jeff, thirteen year old Jackie, and nine year old Jessica. Where were they and were they in danger?

9:40 It's such a chilling story, and I do remember this now. We listened to a really well done podcast about this, I don't remember what it was called. Called Counterclock, Counterclock Season three, and that was one of my main sources for this case. I also read a book about it that was really good that we'll talk about at the end, So you do remember most of the case. I don't think we finished when we were on that road trip. I don't think we finished the podcast. No, I don't know if I remembered the outcome. I remember some of the details. But I'm really looking forward to hearing your telling of this because it was a really interesting story. I don't remember tell this one for a while. Robert Lee Pelly, known as Bob, was born in East Liverpool, Ohio, in March nineteen fifty one. Even to those who knew him, Bob remains a somewhat elusive figure. People described him as charismatic and commanding, the kind of man who could easily take charge of a room, but also stern and demanding, especially with his son Jeff. Bob like firearms and valued discipline, traits that would later shape the atmosphere inside the Pelly household.

10:41 It was also sometimes a jokester. One Sunday, he sat in the pews reading the newspaper for ten minutes before starting the church service. So I read two books on the case, and I listened to the Counterclock podcast, But I still didn't have a great sense of who Bob was. Maybe it's just the way the books were written by Yeah. It's surprising though for somebody who is a somewhat of a public figure, right. I think he was a little mysterious. I think he kept a lot, you know. Under the vest. Bob attended Youngstown State University in Ohio, but from a young age he felt deeply drawn toward religion. Eventually, that calling led him to transfer to Mount Vernon Nazarene College to major and religious studies. There, Bob met his future wife, Ava Joy Armstrong known as Joy. Both were devoted members of the Church of the Nazarene, a Protestant denomination rooted in the Wesleyan holiness tradition that emphasized personal salvation, strict moral values, humility, and family centered living. In smaller communities, especially, the church often served as both a spiritual and social anchor for daily life. Bob and Joy married on September eleventh, nineteen seventy. Their son, Robert Jeffrey known as Jeff, was born the following year, and daughter Jacqueline Kay or Jackie, arrived three years later. Although Bob felt spiritually drawn toward ministry, his early adult life followed a different path. Intelligent and technically skilled, he built a successful career in the growing

12:11 field of computer programming and information systems, work that provided financial stability for the family at a time when the technology industry was rapidly expanding. In nineteen eighty the Pellies relocated to Cape Coral, Florida, near Fort Myers. Cape Coral is a fast growing Gold Coast city known for its canals, boating culture, and suburban development. In the early nineteen eighties, it attracted families seeking sunshine, opportunity, and financial stability, a different world from the small Midwestern church communities that the Pellies had come from. Bob accepted a position with Landmark Banks data processing headquarters. The move represented opportunity and upward mobility, and in nineteen eighty four, the family purchased their first home.

12:56 Jackie remembers the family as close knit and loving, filled with laughter and fun. While Bob was always stricter and more disciplined than Joy, the family was stable and happy during those years, but their new life was short lived. Soon after, Joy was diagnosed with stage four melanoma. Deeply rooted in her faith, she chose to forego much of the aggressive treatment and appeared at peace with the fact that she was dying, ready to meet her savior. Near the end of her life, Joy was placed on life support, and Bob faced the agonizing decision to remove her from it, despite the objections of some of her family members. On February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty five, Joy died at just thirty five years old, leaving behind thirteen year old Jeff and ten year old Jackie. Jeff was especially close to his mother. She understood his humor and personality in ways Bob often didn't, and her death devastated him. In the aftermath, Bob encouraged the children to stay strong and avoid dwelling too openly and grief, telling them their mother would have wanted them to move forward with their lives. But for Jeff, moving forward was not that simple.

14:03 Losing a parent at thirteen is really tough, especially it sounds like Jeff and his relationship with his mother was really close to right. Right, Adolescence is one of the hardest times in your life, and yes, to lose your mom right then would be super hard. Just six months after Joy's death, Bob met Don Hayes Huber through a cousin at a family gathering. Don was a young widow herself raising three little girls alone, six year old Jessica, five year old Janelle, and three year old Joline. Born in nineteen fifty seven in Saginaw, Michigan, Don had grown up in nearby Midland. At Bullock Creek High School, she was admired not only for her beauty, but for her athleticism and quiet confidence. In nineteen seventy five, she was voted prom Queen and Athlete of the Year after participating in nearly every sport the school offered. Friends remembered her as reserved but kind, the type of person people naturally gravitated towards. She was a member of the National Honor Societ and played the clarinet in the school band.

15:02 By the mid nineteen eighties, Don's life had been shattered by tragedy. In January nineteen eighty five, just weeks before Joy Pelly's death, Don's husband, Ed Huber, died at the couple's home in Toledo, Ohio. Ed, an experienced mechanic, succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning while working at a running car inside a closed garage. Alcohol was listed as a contributing factor in his death. Although his death was officially ruled accidental. Whispers circulated that Ed may have taken his own life. Amid reports that the marriage was struggling and that he was planning to leave. At just twenty eight years old, Don suddenly found herself widowed and raising three young daughters alone.

15:44 Bob and Don married on November eighth, nineteen eighty five, just eight and a half months after Joy's death. Two outsiders, the relationship appeared to move quickly, but both were grieving widows left trying to rebuild shattered lives. Don, now alone with her three young daughters, was struggle financially after Ed's death, and stability likely played a role in the rushed marriage. Neither Jeff nor Jackie attended the wedding. Instead, the two remained behind in Florida, expected to continue attending school while her father remarried without them present. Soon afterward, Don and her daughters moved into the Pellies, Florida home. The transition was difficult almost immediately. Jeff, still deeply grieving his mother, resented how quickly his father had moved on Down was only thirteen years older than him, making the dynamic feel even more uncomfortable. Bob encouraged both Jeff and Jackie to call down mom, but neither child was willing to do so.

16:39 Now, how did Bob and Down meet. Bob's cousin was Don's best friend, and they met at a family gathering. I'm not sure if it was like, oh, you should meet my cousin, Bob, but. And that did they have like a long distance relationship for a time. It sounded like they only saw each other a couple of times because he was in Florida taking care of his kids, and. You know, she was, Yeah, that seemed really fast, though I don't. Think they knew each other super well. But like I said, it seemed like, you know, he felt like the kids needed a mom, and she like her kids needed a dad. And you know, I think that Bob asking his children to call Dawn mom was definitely too early. They're not little kids, right.

17:19 And really quickly after their real mother's death, it doesn't seem quite right. Years later, Don's oldest daughter, Jessica, would write candidly about this period in her memoir I Am Jessica. Beneath the image of a newly blended Christian family. She described carrying enormous anger and grief during those years. She was still mourning the sudden loss of her father while trying to adjust to a new stepfather, new siblings, and an entirely new family dynamic almost overnight. Jessica reflected that she and Jeff in particular, both seem to be struggling under the weight of unresolved grief and resentment. A year later, on the couple's first wedding anniversary, Bob accepted a position with Olive Branch Church of the Brethren in northern Indiana, and the newly blended family relocated once again. The move required significant sacrifice. Bob left behind a successful career in Florida for a modest pastor's salary of just twelve hundred dollars a month. Housing at the church parsonage was included, but supporting a household of seven on a minister's income would still prove difficult. The church itself was reportedly struggling financially the time of Bob's death. Olive Branch's bank account allegedly contained less than three hundred dollars, so.

18:31 When Bob lived in Florida, he was not working for a church at that time, so this was a career change for him. When he made this movie. Yeah, absolutely, and some people say that he was not even ordained at that point when he took that job. Interesting, We'll be back after a break. Jeff Pelly was bright, personable, and by many accounts, easy to like, but beneath their he was struggling deeply. In just a few short years, he had lost his mother, watched his father remarry with startling speed, gained three young stepsisters, and been uprooted from Florida to rural Indiana. During some of the most turbulent years of adolescence, the emotional whiplash was immense, and at times Jeff battled depression and suicidal thoughts as tension inside the home steadily escalated. The family eventually sought counseling, but Jeff often pushed hard against the rules and authority inside the household. He brought girls into his bedroom, drove recklessly on rural roads, and frequently clashed with Dawn, whom he openly resented. The conflict between Jeff and Bob also grew increasingly strained, with arguments over discipline, respect, and control becoming a regular part of family life. In the week before the murders, the conflict between Jeff and Bob turned physical Bob clocked Jeff in the jaw during an argument, a confrontation that underscored just how volatile the atmosphere inside the home had become.

20:04 How common do you think it is for fathers and sons to come to blows? I mean, that's a really good question. I've never come to blows with our son, but I'm sure it happens. I think it's pretty common. I think that teenage boys are the most volatile creatures on the planet. Really. Yeah, that's true. And if you're growing up in a household where the father is very strict and authoritarian, I can see that coming to blows, you know, pretty regularly. And at this point of Jeff's life, I think he needed more nurturing than control. Yeah. Dave Hathaway, a member of Olive Branch Church and a close friend of Bob's, later recall the conversation just weeks before the murders, in which Bob quietly asked him whether he thought he was a good father. Behind the confident exterior of the pastor and family man, Bob appeared to be struggling deeply with his relationship with Jeff. In the years since the move to Indiana, Jeff had become increasingly rebellious and defiant, and Bob seemed unsure how to reach him. According to the South Bend Tribune, Bob told Dave that he was half scared of what Jeff might do.

21:09 Down also confided in a friend that she was scared of Jeff. At one point, Bob had even enrolled in a class focused on blended families, searching for guidance on how to hold the household together. But the strain inside the home extended beyond Jeff and Bob. According to some friends and relatives, Don had begun privately questioning whether she and Bob had rushed into marriage too quickly. She reportedly disliked the way Bob disciplined her daughters, viewing him as overly rigid and controlling. Some accounts say Bob occasionally punished the girls with a belt, something that deeply upset Don. The pressure of being a minister's wife and the unspoken expectation that she present herself as the perfect Christian mother and homemaker weighed heavily on her. Her relationship with Jeff was particularly difficult. He was sullen, Reis had often rejected her attempts to build a connection with him, even when she tried to show kindness. When she and Bob first met, he wasn't a minister, right, So now suddenly she was sort of thrust into this role of being a minister's wife.

22:14 Whether it was really her choice or not. I believe they were both deeply religious, but yeah, this was a new role for them. And you know, all eyes are on you. Yeah, your family, your marriage, your house totally. What made life inside the Pelly home so complicated was that nearly everyone there was carrying some form of unresolved grief. Bob was still mourning, joy Don was grieving ed and the children, all five of them, had been uprooted from the lives that they once knew and thrust into an entirely new family structure before they had fully processed the loss of a parent. Different homes, rules, different churches, different expectations. Underneath the friction of a blended family was a deeper sadness.

22:57 Everyone in that house was grieving, and if they were grieving in very different ways. Jackie, Jeff's biological sister. She was thirteen or fourteen at this time, and she was very quiet, and she kept to herself, and Jeff's grief was so in your face. You knew that he was really struggling. Not that the other kids, like Jackie weren't struggling, It's just that they kept it more to themselves. And I just feel like that's important to acknowledge that people grieve in different ways. Her struggle was more internal. Six weeks before the murders, Jeff was caught breaking into a friend's home and stealing roughly one hundred dollars in cash, along with about forty CDs. When Bob learned what had happened, he personally brought Jeff to the police station to face the consequences. According to the book The prom Night Murders by Carlton Smith, it was not Jeff's first brush with trouble.

23:49 In the previous year, he had reportedly been caught shoplifting at Target, breaking into cars at the mall, smoking marijuana, and stealing a check from a women's church fund managed by Don. Those are some pretty serious offenses, right, yeah, absolutely, And when he stole the check, I think that's the one that I would be like most, I don't know, I mean, they're all they're all bad things that I would be, you know, really upset about yeah, but the check Don was really mad and made him apologize to the group of women, and he was really mad about that. But I feel like that was he absolutely should have totally Yeah. And how old was Jeff at this time? He's sixteen and seventeen, okay.

24:31 Bob was deeply troubled by his son's escalating behavior. Friends later recalled that he seemed torn between believing Jeff was a grieving teenager acting out after years of upheaval, and fearing he was drifting towards something more serious and self destructive. Jeff claimed he had stolen the money to fund a spring break trip to Florida to visit old friends. During that trip, he picked up both a speeding ticket in Georgia and a loitering citation in Florida. As pun, Bob grounded him and took away his car. By prom season, tensions between father and son were already running high. Bob had reluctantly agreed to allow Jeff to attend prom with his girlfriend, Darla, but he refused to fully lift the punishment.

25:15 He told the teenagers he would personally drive them to the dance and pick them up afterward. The after prom bowling party overnight sleepover and amusement park trip planned for the next day were strictly off limits, but Jeff refused to let the issue go For days, he pleaded with his father for what he viewed as one perfect weekend before graduation. Friends said Bob was so angry that he confiscated Jeff's silver nineteen eighty four Ford Mustang, hid the keys, and removed the distributor rotor so the car could not be driven. I don't know what a distributor rotor is, but I believe that's the part that he took out, but it could have been a distributor cap as well, do you know.

25:58 I don't know for sh or. I think the distributor roters inside the distributor cap, so it could be. Yeah, it could be one. Book said distributor rot but I also saw distributor cap. Yeah. Bob even canceled the insurance policy, reportedly telling the agent it would not be reinstated until the fall. So Bob was mad mad. Yeah, that's a pretty strict punishment. I mean, this is April, or it might have even been late March when he took the car away, so he wasn't going to get the car back until fall when he was going away to college. That's a pretty strict punishment. Yeah, I'll say then. I guess after the days after the murder, someone and we're not sure if it was Jeff or his grandfather called and had the insurance reinstated.

26:41 Still, Jeff later claimed that after days of arguing, Bob finally relented. On Wednesday night, Jeff and Darlas spent nearly ninety minutes on the phone making plans for Prom weekend, and Jeff excitedly told her that his father had changed his mind and agreed to let him participate in all of the festivities. Relieved, Darla Lena had and made dinner reservations for six thirty pm at Emporium in South Bend. Whether Bob had truly changed his mind would later become one of the most fiercely disputed questions in the entire case. In the days before Prom, Jeff told his friends that Bob had finally relented and agreed to let him drive himself and participate in the pre and post prom activities.

27:23 For the first time in weeks, Jeff seemed excited and optimistic, talking openly about Prom weekend and the plans that he and his friends had made celebrating their last weeks as high schoolers. Jeff, although had finished high school in December, so he wasn't going to school anymore. But you know, okay, but it's still a rite of passage to go through all of this. Yeah, So for all like the talk of like, oh Jeff is, you know, getting into trouble. He I think he must have been a pretty good student to you know, finish high school six months earlier. Yeah. On Saturday, April twenty ninth, the day of prom, Jeff worked an early shift at McDonald's from four thirty am to eleven. Bob still refused to let him drive himself to work, so Jeff's supervisor picked him up instead. Bob arrived late to bring him home after stopping at a gun shop to look at pistols for don, ultimately leaving without making a purchase. So again, Bob is like so mad He's not even let Jeff drive to his five am ship at work, which I'm pretty sure we'd be like, I'll just drive yourself.

28:22 Well, but Bob didn't drive him himself, but. Yes, he must have done something, you know. Sometimes, Yeah, I would think that if Bob had relented and said I'm going to let you drive to prom. He would also be like, yeah, drive yourself to work today too. Very good point. Back at the parsonage, Jeff spent part of the afternoon washing his silver in nineteen eighty four Ford Mustang with help from his younger stepsisters. The moon at the house appeared normal, even cheerful at times. Jeff at lunch, watched baseball and got ready for prom. Meanwhile, Bob spent the afternoon visiting church parishioners, while Don attended a girl Scout event. Both returned home a little after four pm. Around four several local teenagers stopped by the parsonage dress for prom so Bob could admire their outfits and take photographs before the dance. Among them was Jeff's ex girlfriend, Kim Oldenburg. One of the boys in the group, Matt Miller, realized he had forgotten a corsage and rushed home to retrieve it. The scene was strikingly normal, teenagers laughing in their dresses and tuxedos, proud parents taking photographs on a warm spring evening. No one there appeared to sense anything was wrong, although the exact timing has been debated whether it was just before or shortly after five pm, but Jeff placed his tuxedo in the trunk of the Mustang and drove off to meet his girlfriend Darla at a friend's house where she was getting ready. At the time, he was dressed casually in jeans and a Hawaiian T shirt.

29:50 On the way, Jeff stopped at an Amaco station roughly five miles from home because he later claimed the Mustang was idling too fast? What does that mean? Idling too fast? Just like the engine is making a funny sound? Probably, yeah, like when you're not putting your foot on the gas, it's still it's like revving more than it should. An employee recalled seeing Jeff there and specifically noted the time five seventeen pm. Because the person scheduled to relieve him had not yet arrived for work, Jeff used the station's phone to call Darlin tell her that he was running late, before asking to borrow with screwdriver. Once the other employee finally arrived, the two briefly tinkered with Jeff's Mustang before he drove away. A little after five point thirty, Jeff arrived at the house where Darla was getting ready and changed into his tuxedo. The timeline here is very important because it's so tight. The evening began with a six thirty pm dinner reservation at Emporium, a popular upscale restaurant overlooking the Saint Joseph River in South Bend. Jeff and Darla arrived about ten minutes late, rushing in with nervous excitement of the big night ahead. Earlier that day, Jeff's manager at McDonald's had given him a fifty gift certificate for the occasion. It was a thoughtful gesture to help celebrate prom night, though Jeff fully intended to pay her back later. After dinner, the group headed to the Elks Lodge. Like high school seniors all across the country that spring weekend, they spent the night dancing, laughing, and taking photos, trying to make the most of one of their last big milestones before graduation and adulthood arrived. The

31:23 fun didn't stop when the dance ended. The group traded their formal wear for comfortable clothes and headed to Chipewab Bowl, where they bowled until nearly three am. Afterward, around fourteen of them piled into a friend's basement for a few hours of sleep before waking up early for a road trip to Great America the next day in Gurney, Illinois. I spent so much of my youth at Great America. It was probably about ninety minutes from where I lived. That's at that particular Great America. Exact same Greade America. Yeah. Fueled by excitement and quick naps, the kids pulled into the amusement park around eleven AM, but a lighthearted mood didn't last long. Shortly after entering the park, Darla noticed that Jeff suddenly grew pale and quiet.

32:05 When she asked him what was wrong, he admitted that he had a heavy, sinking feeling that something was wrong at home with his family. A moment later, he tried to brush it off, and the group continued on into the park. Hours later, the reality caught up to them. Officers from the Gurney Police Department located Jeff and Darla in the park and quietly pulled them aside. They told Jeff that something terrible had happened back at home. Jeff broke down, crying softly, while Darla tried to comfort him. The rest of the group waited for several tens hours for investigators from Indiana to arrive. In an instant, the weekend's energy shifted from exhaustion and fun to complete confusion, fear, and silence. So there are varying reports of what happened here at Great America. The kids were put into this room and they told like the whole group, there's fourteen to sixteen of them, and some people said that Jeff showed no emotion, but darified that he was crying and he was really upset.

33:03 Interesting. During the wait, police searched both Jeff and Darla's vehicles. Investigators reported finding nothing immediately incriminating, though this may have been when they collected a pair of genes that would later become a focal point of the investigation, So try to remember that, okay. Finally, around three thirty the following morning, the group arrived back at the police station in Lakeville, Indiana, where Jeff's grandparents were waiting. The rest of the teenagers, including Darla, were allowed to leave. Before they separated, Jeff turned to Darla, I didn't do this. You believe me, don't you. I don't know, she replied. Just steps from the church where families had gathered for Sunday worship, investigators entered a scene of staggering violence inside the quiet, whitewashed parsonage next door. There was no sign of forest entry.

33:52 Police quickly ruled out a murder suicide. No weapon had been left behind, and investigators could find no spent shell case anywhere inside the house. Bob, Don, Janelle, and Jolene had all been killed with deer slug rounds fired from a shotgun. An interesting point about no shell casings being found to me, that says somebody who did this was trying to be very careful, right exactly. In later years, the investigation itself would face criticism. The crime scene was never fingerprinted, and investigators failed to establish a formal time of death using body temperature, rigor mortis or lividity measurements. Those emissions would later become central points of contention as questions surrounding the case continued to grow.

34:40 Bob Helly was found lying on his back in the hallway near the bedrooms. Nearby, a pen in scattered papers appeared to mark the place where he had collapsed. He had been shot twice from only a few feet away, once in the chest and once in the neck. So that's why they thought they knew it wasn't a murder suicide because he'd been shot twice. One of the blasts severed his spinal cord almost instantly. Investigators also noted that Bob was still wearing his shoes, despite Don's strict no shoe policy inside the house, a detail suggesting he may have stepped outside shortly before the shootings to tend to something urgent. In a basement, Don and her daughters were found together. Don appeared to have been shot first. Nearby.

35:21 Six year old Joline was found clinging to her mother, while eight year old Janelle lay close to Don's feet, both girls seemingly seeking comfort from her. All three had been shot at close range, within one or two feet. This scene is just devastating to me, Like the little girls are, you know, like clinging to their mob's side, Which also tells you that the shots must have occurred pretty quickly, because I think once she had been shot, they would have run away. Yeah, you would think. It's just so horrible to even think about this scene. The basement scene was horrific. Blood spatter and biological material covered portions of the room. Investigators believed between five even seven shotgun blasts had been fired inside the home. A slug was later found lodged in a book in the basement, while another apparent shotgun strike had gouged the drywall near the basement's stairwell. Detectives theorized that Don may have run downstairs trying to protect the girls in their basement bedroom, while the killer followed behind her.

36:21 Do you know if the basement, if there wasn't a way to exit the house from the basement, or did you have to go up the stairs walk down stairs? Okay, so they were kind of trapped down there. Yeah, but the victims were wearing also offers a possible clue about when they were killed. Don was dressed casually in jeans in a sweatshirt, while the girls wore t shirts and shorts rather than pajamas or church clothes. The girls normally went to bed around seven thirty or eight. Their clothing suggests the murders likely occurred sometime during the early evening hours, after the family had settled in for the night, but before the girls had changed into their pajamas. Elsewhere in the house, investigators noticed several details that stood out. In the bathroom, three wash claws of barying degrees of dampness hung over the side of the tub. One of the detectives later noted water droplets still visible on the bath mat, along with traces of blood found in the tub and on near by tile. Investigators suspected the killer may have showered after the murders. In the primary bedroom, a wooden gun rack hung above the bed. A bow and arrow remained in place, but the shotgun usually stored there was missing. In Jeff's bedroom, investigators found his baby book open on the bed, our babies first seven years, on the night of his senior prom one of the last milestones before adulthood. The detail felt poignant. Was Jeff feeling sentimental missing his mother? It's impossible to know, but the image lingers. Downstairs, Bob Pelly's office remained largely untouched.

37:52 A bowl of popcorn sat on his desk, something family members said was part of his nightly routine. Investigators could not determine whether it had been left there from the previous evening or prepared more recently. Nearby, in the storage room, beside the washer and dryer, investigators discovered a small load of recently washed clothes inside the washing machine. Hid him. Beneath a pile of sleeping bags was a nylon carrying case designed for a shotgun. The clothes found in the washing machine is also a significant detail that we will talk about later. There are varying reports. There was a T shirt that Jeff had been wearing earlier in two socks, and there was also a pair of jeans that we talked about that earlier. It was questionable whether the jeans were in that load.

38:41 Or whether they were in his car. Yeah, okay. Police quickly learned that seventeen year old Jeff Pelly had attended prom the night before and was now at six Flags Great America in Gurney, Illinois, roughly two and a half hours away. Fourteen year old Jackie was attending church camp at Huntington College. Jessica had spent the weekend at a sleepover with a friend, and this detail is devastating because Janelle was supposed to go to the sleepover, but at the last minute Don said, you know, why don't you stay home instead? Oh gosh, that is so horrible. I can't imagine the girls that survived, how much guilt they must have. Telately, Almost immediately, Jeff became an early focus of the investigation.

39:24 As investigators processed the scene, Jackie and Jessica were brought back to the parsonage and informed that their family had been killed. Meanwhile, officers had a degreat America to interview Jeff Bob's former in laws. Joy's parents, Mary and jack Armstrong traveled from Kentucky to care for Jeff and Jackie Don's surviving daughter. Jessica was taken by her parents, Edward and Laura Hayes, back to their home and Eton Rapids, Michigan, and the days that followed, investigators concentrated heavily on locating the missing shotgun. Detectives believed that if Jeff was responsible, he would have had little time to dispose of the weapon. Search teams combed ditches, wooded areas, streams, and farm fields along the roads Jeff had traveled. Divers searched au pond across from Olive Branch Church, search dogs tracked nearby woods, while mounted search teams swept the surrounding countryside. Investigators even sifted through the trash collected from the local gas stations.

40:23 Despite the massive search effort, the murder weapon was never recovered. Wow, that's really interesting because it would be hard to you know, in the route that he had to take from home to meeting his friends. Like you said, he wouldn't have had a lot of time to dispose of it, so it's a kind of a limited area. Right, definitely. But there are some reports that Jeff turned like the opposite way, so it's you know, it's possible that you know, they weren't looking in the right places. Either, could have only gone so far. Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

41:04 Prosecutors would later argue that the murders occurred in the narrow window between the other teenagers leaving the parsonage and Jeff appearing at the Amaico station around five seventeen pm. It was a tight timeline. So remind me, when do we think the other teenagers left the parsonage. We're going to talk about it quite a bit later, but it was probably about four or fifty five, but we don't know for sure. And something to think about in this case is everyone has a different watch. Everyone has a different time, right, So the employee at the ama Coo station looks at his watch as it's five to seventeen, but that doesn't mean it's five seventeen. And the house where Jeff went, where Darla was getting ready and he was going to change into his tucks there too.

41:46 The mom at that house said that she thought Jeff was there by five thirty, and she tended to have her clocks run ten minutes fast. Okay, so he was actually there earlier, Okay, then she thought. According to their theory, Jeff somehow managed to murder four members of his family, clean himself up, collect the shotgun shell casings, close the curtains throughout the house, lock the doors, dispose of the murder weapon and other evidence, and then continue on to Prom, appearing calm and composed. For investigators, the conflict between Bob and Jeff over Prom became the clearest possible motive. They believed Jeff was desperate to regain his freedom, spend the weekend with his friends, and avoid the humiliation of having his strict father show for him around town all evening. There may have been additional pressure from Darla as well. She later admitted that Bob Pelly made her uncomfortable and that she did not want him driving them to Prom. According to Darla, if Jeff was barred from the pre and post prom activities, she still intended to attend without him.

42:52 So if you recall on it was about Wednesday, Jeff called Darla and he told her where in the clear? Dad said that I can go, and she was really relieved. Okay. During the police interview, Jeff's grandparents were allowed to sit with him because he was still a minor. Detectives immediately viewed him as either a suspect or, at the very least, a critical person of interest. Jeff came across as intelligent, articulate, and composed. Some investigators later said they found him unsettlingly polished. Others believed detectives developed tunnel vision early on and began interpreting his behavior through the lens of guilt. Investigators noted that Jeff did not appear emotional enough for someone who had just lost four family members, and that he occasionally laughed at inappropriate moments.

43:41 So I didn't include a clip, but you can listen to the Counterclock podcast, which I highly recommend. There's also an episode of forty eight Hours that has a lot of the interview in it too, or you can just click around YouTube and find Jeff talking. He seemed very earnest to me in those interviews. And as we've talked about before, people react to this kind of thing in very different ways, and especially a seventeen year old. I think it's hard to predict how a seventeen year old is going to behave. And remember when Joy died, Bob encouraged the kids to kind of stuff down their emotions and said, you know, you shouldn't grieve in public.

44:22 When detectives questioned him about weapons inside the home, Jeff described several firearms his father had owned over the years. He mentioned a bow and arrow hanging above Bob and Don's bed, a shotgun, possibly a Mossberg twenty gage that Bob had given him for Christmas in nineteen eighty seven, and a pistol that had belonged to his late mother and was eventually supposed to be his. He also recalled other firearms Bob had owned at various times, including multiple shotguns, a twenty two rifle, and two twenty two caliber pistols, one of them a semi automatic handgun with interchangeable barrels and a high capacity magazine. Although there was no record of Bob ever purchasing ammunition, Jeff told investigators that after he threatened to take his own life, Bob removed all the firearms from the house, though he wasn't sure where they went. Jeff said the incident had not been a genuine suicide attempt, but rather an impulsive outburst after he was caught shoplifting at Target and grounded for the summer.

45:22 Others who remembered the episode, however, described it as far more serious and deeply concerning. During questioning, Jeff spoke openly about the complicated emotions he carried toward Dawn, though he insisted he genuinely loved his younger stepsisters. By most accounts, Jeff and Don did not openly despise one another. What seemed to trouble him more was the lingering grief surrounding his mother's death and how quickly the family structure had changed afterward. Jeff admitted that after Bob remarried and entered the ministry, he felt like he lost the version of his father that he had once known. While Jeff had always been closer to his mother, I and Bob had once shared a lighter, easier relationship, playing baseball, joking around, spending time together. Over time, that connections slowly faded. At the same time, the shift in Bob may not have been entirely surprising. Becoming a pastor placed him in a highly visible public role, one that carried expectations of discipline, morality, and order, while Jeff himself had begun exhibiting increasingly troubling behavior during adolescence. Friends and family later described a father and son who seemed trapped in a cycle of conflict, neither fully understood how to stop. Investigators were also searching for physical signs that Jeff had recently fired a shotgun or been involved in a violent struggle. At five foot seven and roughly one hundred and forty pounds, detectives believed repeatedly firing a shotgun loaded with deer slugs would likely

46:53 have left significant bruising or recoil marks on his shoulder. At the station, Jeff was photographed nearly nude, so investigators could document any bruises, scratches, recoil injuries, or defensive wounds. They found none, not even a scratch on him. Detectives also chose not to perform gunshot residue testing, believing too much time had passed for the results to have evidentiary value. Jeff not having any bruising surprised me. From what I know of shotguns most people, especially if he did it and he shot at least five to seven times. He probably would have had a bruise. Yeah, it was a question. I was going to ask listeners, but I ran out of time.

47:35 But that's my understanding as well, is that that, you know, shooting a shotgun like that has a pretty serious recoil and would definitely leave a bruise there. After the interview ended, Jeff left with his grandparents and stayed at a nearby hotel. An officer was stationed outside the room overnight. In fact, investigators appeared to keep Jeff under near constant watch throughout the week, though it was never entirely clear whether the surveillance intended to protect him or monitor him. Jeff agreed to take a polygraph examination in South Bend on the evening of May one, but the situation quickly unraveled. Depending on who tells the story, the details differed dramatically. What is clear is that Jeff never actually took the test.

48:18 Years later, Jeff claimed Lieutenant Brent Hemmerline, the officer assigned to administer the polygraph, became aggressive once Jack Armstrong was no longer in the room. I'm sorry, who's Jack. Armstrong Jeff's grandfather? Oh? Gotcha? According to Jeff, Hammerline yelled at him, pressured him, and pushed for a confession before the examination had even begun. Emmerline later testified that Jeff asked whether he would receive the electric chair. Iff convicted, Jeff abruptly ended the session, saying he needed to leave because he had plans with Darla. As the weeks passed, investigators focused almost exclusively on Jeff. Detectives never traveled to Florida to examine Bob Pelley's earlier life or interview many of the people who had known him there, and there were aspects of Bob Pelly's life that arguably deserved a closer look.

49:09 So what do you think of this scene here with the police. You know, he's got himself in a room by himself, all of a sudden. It sounds like he went pretty hard on him. I mean, that's according to Jeff. It seems it would seem unusual to me for a detective to go after somebody like that right before they're about to sit down for a polygraph. I actually disagree. I think that they thought that Jeff was guilty. They thought he was seventeen years old, and we can easily intimidate this kid, and we can break him. And I think that when they had the opportunity, that they were trying to break him. Yeah. Maybe, So it just seems the timing of doing it right at the time they were doing the polygraph seems a bit odd to me, but you could be I. Think that's common practice. Actually not always, but depending on who is giving the polygraph. So I can tell that you don't agree with me here, and that's fine.

49:57 I really I honestly don't know. But it just se if I was a cop, that seems like it would be an odd thing to do, because I would think a polygraph the idea is to get to the truth. But I feel like they were trying to brattle him. And Grandpa said that when he went to talk to Jeff, Jeff was sobbing. He was really upset about the whole incident. Okay, that could be. I could definitely be wrong about that, but you. Know, the police officer did have a different theory of what happened there too. I would think most seventeen year olds or most miners would have a hard time passing a polygraph exam. I think they would be really nervous. I think most human beings regardless of age. That's how I feel like if I was. We talk about this all the time. I thought you always said that you could pass it.

50:38 No, No, I don't think so. I think I would be so nervous that I would fail no matter what. As investigators tried to piece together the family's final movements on Saturday evening, they uncovered details that complicated the timeline even further. One of those details came from Crystal. Easter Day, Bob and Don had planned to stop by her house before prom and were expected to be there around five thirty, but when they never arrived, Crystal and her date became concerned enough to drive out to the parsonage themselves. When they pulled up around five forty five, the house appeared dark and strangely quiet. The curtains were drawn, the doors were locked. Bob and Don's vehicles were still parked outside, but Jeff's silver Mustang was gone. That night, at Prom, Kristel mentioned the visit to Jeff. She later recalled that he had little reaction, but another account paints the moment somewhat differently. According to the South Bend Tribune, Jeff had actually asked Cristel during dinner whether she had seen his parents, and she told him no. Investigators also spoke with the parishioners Bob had visited earlier that afternoon. They remembered Bob mentioning specifically that he planned to drive Jeff to prom that evening, a detail that raised questions about whether Bob had truly changed his mind about Jeff's punishment after all.

51:57 In fact, between Friday and Saturday, Bob told four different people that he's still planned on driving Jeff to the prom. Oh wow, before we go, I want to talk about the timeline. So this timeline is exceptionally tight, right, Depending on which witness accounts were accurate, Prosecutors believed Jeff may have had as little as ten minutes and perhaps no more than twenty to accomplish all of the following. And I let me know if you think of something else that we might be missing here. Retrieve the murder weapon, which may or may not have already been inside the home, along with at least six shotgun shells, kill his father upstairs and his stepmother and two stepsisters downstairs, reloading multiple times depending on the type of shotgun used. The shotgun that they believe he used, I think would hold five bullets, no more than a five bullets, and we know that six or seven bullets were probably shot. The murderer would have to collect the spent shell casings from the crime scene, cleaned themselves up, and wash the clothing so thoroughly that later lab testing reported we found no blot evidence on any of the clothing, but especially the jeens. Shower, change clothes, and pack his tuxedo into the car, dispose of the shotgun and shellcasing so completely that they were never recovered.

53:12 Just bite extensive police searches involving trained canines, and reinstall the part in his car that Bob had removed, and then leave for the gas station before continuing on to prompt. So, those are a lot of things to get done in that window, right. Yeah, especially the clean like the cleaning everything up, like cleaning, showering, you know, changing his clothes, washing his clothes, things like that. You know, the shooting itself. I think, okay, that you know didn't necessarily have to take that long, and putting a distributor cap back on your car is probably not very long either, but it does seem like an awful lot to have happened. In a very short contrience when you put them together. And hiding the gun somewhere that is never found.

53:53 And it wasn't in the parsonage or in the church as far as investigators know. So we know between four thirty and five several friends stopped by the Pelly home before prompt Jeff was not yet dressed in his tuxedo, and some would later recall tension inside the home. At around five PM, Kim, Oldenberg and others left the Pelly house. Kim later stated that they arrived at another friend's house at exactly five pm, helping investigators narrow the possible murder window and the person. The house that Kim and her friends stopped by was a mile down the road, so it probably wouldn't have taken more than, you know, two minutes to get there. To be generous, we can say that she left at four fifty five, so between five and five point fifteen. Investigators believe the murders likely occurred at five ten. Matt Miller, remember he's the guy that forgot the corsage. He went to go get it, so at five ten he drove back going the other way, and he saw Jeff's car there. At five twenty or five seventeen, depending you know whose watch we look at.

54:59 Jeff arrived at the end. I'm a CO station, so we're not sure how long he was there, but he was there long enough to ask for a screwdriver and some cardboard, and he fiddled with the car for a few minutes, and then he also called Darla and said he was running late. By five point thirty, I think he was with Darla at their friend's house. But at five forty five, that's when Crystal Easter Day was at the parsonage, and when the windows and doors were all locked and the parsonage was tight as a drum and there was no activity whatsoever. Were there phone records from his call from the Yama Co station, do we? Because that would give a very exact time if they were phone records, not. That I know of. That's where we're stopping for part one, but in part two we will introduce some alternate theories.

55:45 I hope you're going to tell me what actually happened in part two, but I'm guessing you're not. What do you mean? I want to know, like the truth. I'm really baffled in this by this case so far. Why are you baffled? Just because I think there are there there's evidence that points both ways. I think there is evidence that points to Jeff. I do think that, you know, he's the most likely one to have been able to do this, but there's also things that just don't add up. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't want it to be Jeff. When I was, you know, researching, it was like, please don't let it be Jeff. Yeah, I mean, let there be another suspect. Yeah, I can understand that it would feel a little bit better. I don't know that seems weird to say, but you just hate to think of a seventeen year old kid killing a lot of members of his family, well, the whole the family.

56:31 I feel so bad for the family, like they're all grieving. Yeah, you know, and grief is a long process and we try to rush it but it can't really be rushed. And I feel like Bob and down. They thought by getting married that it would be easier on the kids, but yeah, in someway, it made it harder. How long after they got married did this the shooting happen? Like about two and a half years, Okay, so still still relatively fresh, very fresh, Yeah. Do you think that Bob and Down rushed things. It certainly feels like it to me. I mean that's really especially with the kids, you know, still going through what they were all going through, like you said, grieving and trying to process the death of their parents at a pretty young age. It does seem very quick to kind of, you know, get married again and expect your kids to start calling this new woman mom, and it just it seems like it's asking a lot of your kids to adapt to that, and.

57:28 Because of the long distance relationship, they weren't able to spend much time together before you know, they became mom and dad. Yeah. Do you think that investigators honed in too quickly on Jeff? I mean it sure, it kind of seems that way to me, based on what you've what you've told me. You didn't really say anything about any other suspects or looking at anything outside of Jeff. I can understand that he would be the prime suspect based on everything that they that they knew at that time. But at the same time, you probably want to keep your options open early in the investigation. I mean, absolutely, your obligation is to follow up on every. Lead, but I guess the question would be whether there was any evidence that pointed anywhere else. I mean, it seems like there was some things that didn't necessarily fit with Jeff doing it. But at the same time, I didn't really hear anything that pointed to, you know, someone else.

58:22 I didn't hear anything about like, oh, there was footprints that didn't belong to anybody outside the house, or somebody spotted a strange car, you know what I mean, So it doesn't I didn't hear anything. We will have alternate theories in part two. I'm not sure if I did a good enough job talking about the crime scene, because there weren't bloody handprints or fingerprints or footprints. The scene was very. Clean, which is really shocking with a death, with a murder, murders of that nature, with a shotgun like that, it's got to be a very It was a grizzly some scene. Yeah, And the investigators said that whoever committed those murders, you know, would be right. I would think there would be. It would be you would have a hard time getting out of there without leaving bloody footprints, bloody fingerprints, bloody clothing.

59:10 Do you think that going to prom is motive enough. I mean, you know, it's hard to get inside the mind of a seventeen year old kid. And you know, of course, it seems like that would be a huge overreaction obviously to being not allowed to go to prom. But something that Jackie said Jeff's sister, was that he was almost eighteen. He was seventeen and a half, he'd finished high school, he had a job, like he could have just left. But at that age it might be hard to conceive that you could you could just leave right so, and he might have thought that his dad would not allow him, Yeah. From and grab him by his ear and pull him out. Do you consider it odd that Bob was taking pictures of these other kids, but as far as we know, he didn't take any pictures of Jeff. Or he wasn't like, hey, you know, can I take some pictures of you and Darla, I'll meet up with you, you know, if he had agreed to let Jeff go.

1:00:03 Yeah, it seems very odd to me. We're going to keep coming back to the timeline. But do you feel like the timeline is feasible? Feasible but very very difficult, very tight. I have some theories that I will tell you at the end of part two. My last question is do you think that a seventeen year old could pull off the perfect murder by accident? Maybe? I don't feel like you could plan whoever did this did? I think it would be very hard to plan it and get away without leaving. Like I said, bloody footprints, bloody fingerprints, anything like that. I think you would have to get very lucky. Yeah, well, please come back for part two. I will definitely come back for part two. I hope the cats come back to. Yeah, they've been great.

1:00:43 They've been in and out of this room. So did it all come back to you or a lot of it come back to you from the podcast? Oh? Absolutely? Did Do you remember the alternate theories at all? No? Not really. I don't think we finished it unless you finished it. I don't think I did. Yeah, I'm terrible about things like that. I'll start a podcast or a show or something and then I'll just kind of forget about it after a while. I think the Counterclock podcast did an excellent job, but there were several episodes that felt like were complete rabbit holes in my opinion. So if you have listened to it, let me know what you think. So there is a TikTok trend right now, and you know us for yeah, the latest trends. But what is your your five personal horror horror movies? And these are things that you find scary the other people might not. They don't have to be really scary, just they can be silly things. I gave you a heads up that I was going to ask you.

1:01:41 This, yeah, and I promptly forgot about it and then and I still I haven't watched any tiktoks that have done this, so I'm not really quite sure. But I went to things that like are my phobias right, Like spiders, so like the movie a rack and phobia is terrifying. But my I have refused to ever watch the movie because you've never watched that. No, it's a great movie. If you ask to watch it every Halloween. I'm like no, because I know that it would, you know, kind of trigger me, even though I don't have a huge spider fear. Yeah, so I have a huge spider fear, meaning a fear of huge spiders. So when I think of my personal horror movie, it's sat in Australia or they have these gigantic spiders, these Huntsman spiders that will be up in the corner of your house, or they will be on the visor of your car, and you'll like, as they stay there.

1:02:30 To keep cool, get in your car. I don't know, they find a way and then you you're driving along and you pull down the visor and this gigantic spider falls on your lap. That's that is my nightmare. That's yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. I am more scared of snakes than spiders are. Yeah. I feel like it's either or for a lot of people. I just feel like snakes don't normally come in your house and you know, crawl into your mouth or your ear. Didn't we have one in our house one. Time a spider or a snake fell out, A spider a snake. I don't don't recall having any snakes in our house. That would sometimes I think I. Would remember, if her memory is real or not, remember the one house we had where they were always like in the window well, And I don't know if that's a real memory. Like I'm thinking that I got in the house went up and that probably did.

1:03:14 I don't think that. Okay, tell me the rest of your fears or your personal horror movies. Well, I'm not a big fan of flying, so being trapped in a small metal can flying, you know, thirty five thousand feet in the air, and having no control over anything. That's the thing that gets me. There is like being in your seat someone else's control. You have no idea. That's why you never lived there or what there did is why I don't let. Them even together. For two hundred and twelve years and I think I've driven like six times. Yeah, I know I do have them. And those are like when you've had a dental or medical procedure then I have to drive home. Yeah, I have a serious control issue. The other one is being without Wi Fi.

1:03:56 Oh good god, I have the worst. Guys. It's like the feeling of rage, like when you can't get online and you need to do something, or when you have an important question you have to answer, like who is that actor that was in that one. Show Spider in Austria Rare? Yeah, I hate that girl. I don't know. I think I think you need to cut the cord. I think we need no absolutely. Day this weekend with no electronics in. Your hands for Saturday. Yeah, I mean we're both on screens way too much, totally that response is a little scary for me. Okay, My last two are really about my own anxieties.

1:04:38 So one is being late for things. So my personal horror movie is showing up like five minutes late for an appointment. I don't have that one, but that is totally one of mine too, which I know's crazy because everyone's late, but I hate even it's like two minutes, I'll call the dentist and there was like, okay, we'll see how when. You get here. Really didn't need to make that call. Yeah, I get very anxious, which is why I'm hardly ever relate to anything. And then my last one is the idea of walking out to speak in front of a crowd of people and completely forgetting what you were going to say and just like blanking and panicking. That terrifies me.

1:05:18 Wow, So you have a lot of anxieties. I do, all right, Well, some of mine are maybe they're just different than yours. But my number one is having like you or one of our kids or a close friend be diagnosed with the terminal illness. I'm glad you're laughing about it, because like, compared to yours, well, it's just. You know, when I thought about this again I had. I never watched any tiktoks or anything on this, so I didn't neither. I wasn't quite sure what I'm like. Okay, I was trying to keep it a little like lighter. No, and I think that was what you should have done. Okay, But you know, I just I worry about you guys all the time. And yeah, okay, the other one, this one's kind of very very serious too, but the rest aren't.

1:06:01 But bankruptcy due to medical or legal that I worry about that all the time. That is something definitely worth worrying about. Due point above sixty. I hate humidity. Someone to ask to see my feet or take a picture of my feet. This one's lame, but I couldn't think of another. A last one. But I did like your late one because that is totally me too. But having no book, which is different than yours, I guess about having no internet. Yeah, well, seeing as most of the books we read now are usually on you know, an electronic device, it's. But once I put it on my Kindle, I put my Kindle in airplane mode. And I tend to put like five books on my Kindle at a time, like get them from the library and then never mind, that's a whole other episode.

1:06:46 Yeah, it would be a sad world without books. Do you remember Do you remember the twilight Zone episode. There was a Twilight Zone episode. There was a guy he loved books so much, and then the world there was like the apocalypse and he was the only one left, and he was so happy because he had this library full of books and he was like going to read for the rest of his life. And then he broke He broke his glasses. That was the twist ending of the Twilight Zone. So he couldn't read, couldn't he Just like on Lost or uh, the Walking Dead, they would just find like other people's glasses. Yeah, I don't think. I don't know. I don't know why he couldn't do that, but I think it. Yeah, it was the twist that had to be there too. I thought you were going to talk about the Twilight Zone episode talking Tina or talk I don't know.

1:07:31 My name is Tina and I don't like you very much. Classic. Well, I think that's all we have for today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us and listening. If you want to listen to part two right now, join us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill. Remember we're a two person team and put an enormous amount of research, writing, and production work into every episode. If you enjoy the podcast and want to help support the work we do, we try to keep it simple with just one tier for five dollars a month. Your support truly means a lot to us. Please find us on social media, Rate review, follow, subscribe. I'm sorry, but we're no longer on TikTok. Oh, we're on TikTok, but I'm not really posting any.

1:08:15 Content lately that wasn't get a lot of traction. Yeah, but we are, yes, so you can find us there as well. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.