Jan. 12, 2026

Reeva Steenkamp and Oscar Pistorius - Part 2 of 3

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

On February 14, 2013 — Valentine’s Day — the world was stunned by the news that South African Olympic athlete Oscar Pistorius had shot and killed his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, inside his home in Pretoria. What followed was one of the most closely watched criminal trials of the 21st century — a case that forced the public to grapple with uncomfortable questions about celebrity, justice, gender-based violence, and how much of a public figure’s private life we ever truly see.

Listen to part 3 on Patreon today

Today's snack: Malva pudding

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:01.960
Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

2
00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.360
If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

3
00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:08.000
Marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

4
00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:09.759
Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

5
00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.080
Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

6
00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.399
Hey Tina, Hey Rich, How are you today?

7
00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.359
I am fine. I accidentally heard our podcast the other day,

8
00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.119
just the opening, and I was like, I hate that person.

9
00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:38.359
Did you accidentally hear it?

10
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.079
You know, sometimes you would just go on like YouTube

11
00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:43.320
or something, just you know, to look at something, and

12
00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:45.840
then it starts and I'm like, uh, who is that

13
00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:47.799
annoying person? So my apologies.

14
00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:49.079
That was when you heard my voice.

15
00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.600
I'm assuming, Oh no, no, you sound lovely.

16
00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:54.280
I'm the same way. I listen to our podcast more

17
00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:56.520
than you because I do some of the editing. I don't.

18
00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:58.359
Our son does most of it now, but I do

19
00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.200
a little bit, and so I have to listen to

20
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.759
it at times that I hate hearing my own voice.

21
00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:04.519
I love hearing yours, though it makes me smile.

22
00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:06.959
Yeah, you know, I know we all have that thing.

23
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.719
But opposite, I think you have a really nice voice.

24
00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:10.760
I don't know why you would ate it.

25
00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:14.159
Yeah, just I think everyone just doesn't like their own voice. Yeah,

26
00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:18.040
there's a very special day coming up. It was today,

27
00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.000
Well it's for most people who will be listening to

28
00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:24.359
this on Monday, it will be today, and that is

29
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:24.920
it will.

30
00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.599
Be the birthday of at least three bad people.

31
00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:31.799
We covered and one very good person who is on

32
00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.040
who is talking on our podcast right now.

33
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:35.200
You yep, thanks.

34
00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:36.879
I know you don't like.

35
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:39.760
To be I sure don't the center. You don't like

36
00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:41.519
that over Do you have presents?

37
00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:44.079
Do you have cake on your birthday? Maybe I will?

38
00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.359
Well you're telling people it's my birthday, but no gifts

39
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:48.280
for me? Will?

40
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:49.200
It will?

41
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:50.359
Thank you so much?

42
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:51.680
Do what we kind of make it special.

43
00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:52.280
Let's move on.

44
00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.640
Well, let's talk about cheesecake first. So for me it's

45
00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.200
cherry chip cake is my thing, and for you, you

46
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:01.560
don't get to eat cheese cake because nobody else in

47
00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.760
our family, indeed you're not allowed. Nobody else in our

48
00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.239
family really likes it. But on your birthday, of course,

49
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.199
you get what you want, So you want not always.

50
00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:13.439
You should get what you want, and you want some cheesecake,

51
00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:15.039
not always sometimes.

52
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:17.319
I really there's a lot of desserts that I like

53
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.199
that you don't. One of them is carrot cake. I

54
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:20.039
love carrot cake.

55
00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:22.159
So what would you like for this birthday?

56
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:24.680
I would like us not to talk about my birthday

57
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:25.280
on the podcast.

58
00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.240
Definitely makes you uncomfortable.

59
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.719
It sure does. It's weird because I am a pretty

60
00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.319
I'm not a quiet person, but I don't like you.

61
00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.080
Do not like to be the center of attention.

62
00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:35.879
Do not like to be the center of attention. I

63
00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:39.080
like to sit in the corner and make devastatingly witty

64
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:41.319
comments every now and then. That's that's who I am.

65
00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:42.360
Oh, you're very good at that.

66
00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:45.120
I appreciate it. I appreciate the effort.

67
00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:46.520
All right, we can move on now.

68
00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.439
So did you make me cheesecake today?

69
00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.120
Not yet, but I think I'm going to go get

70
00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:52.039
you a piece of cheesecake.

71
00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:52.240
Yeah.

72
00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.719
I would prefer no offense, but I would prefer that.

73
00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:55.960
Yeah. I figured that the.

74
00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.560
Cheesecake factory does make the in my opinion, the best cheesecake.

75
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.319
Make a road trip for you.

76
00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:04.840
You're awful sweet, Thank you. Twenty twenty six has just

77
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:08.240
begun and we have not talked about Love Mary Kill's

78
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:11.159
contract negotiations and what it's going to take to keep

79
00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.159
me here on the podcast. Really I have had other offers.

80
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.360
Oh that's right, you did have another offer in this right, Yeah,

81
00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:19.120
all right, so lay it on me. Well, I think

82
00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.120
we should talk about this off air. To be honest

83
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:22.400
with you, I don't think we should air.

84
00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:26.120
I need to hold you accountable, sir. If we don't

85
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.960
talk about it on air, you will not abide by.

86
00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.479
Give me your demands that I will consider them off

87
00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:32.840
the air.

88
00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:35.719
Okay. One is I would like to start every episode

89
00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:39.759
with a frosty crisp, diet pepsi or diet coked okay

90
00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:44.759
on ice. Yeah, the guests like the guests station. Because

91
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:51.080
I'm an elite princess, I will limit sports conversations to

92
00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:53.759
fifteen seconds or less every episode.

93
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:54.840
Seen second.

94
00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.639
That's the listeners would approve it.

95
00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.120
The Bears are doing well, so I guess I can

96
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:01.919
abide by that for the next few weeks.

97
00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:03.919
So that's another funny story. I have to tell the

98
00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.719
listeners at the end of the episode. We don't have enough.

99
00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:08.719
We have to wrap this up pretty quickly, even though

100
00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:10.479
I have a whole list of demands that I will

101
00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:12.960
present to you at a later date. But okay, see,

102
00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.199
my name always needs to come first. Oh, you should

103
00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.040
have to like pull my chair out for me, and

104
00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.519
no vegetables, no snacks as vegetables, which I'm really surprised

105
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:23.519
you didn't do yesterday. But we'll talk more about it

106
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:25.279
later and we'll circle back.

107
00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:28.399
Wow, Okay, I had no idea you had all these

108
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.959
things that you were like keeping bottled up that you

109
00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:34.439
really wanted to change. But okay, I take it under consideration.

110
00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:35.839
Okay, did you bring me a snack?

111
00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:40.600
Though I did? And vegetables no, So this I did

112
00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.519
actually make you an authentic South African snack. It called

113
00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:48.800
Malva pudding. And what does that? That sound good to you?

114
00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:51.319
It looks really interesting.

115
00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.759
It smells really good. It was in the you cooked it.

116
00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:57.720
It's almost more like a cake, thank so. The cake

117
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.439
it's not that different from it. I think it looks

118
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.120
like a very moist kind of cake. Like there's basically sugar, eggs, flour, butter,

119
00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:06.480
and then there's like a sauce you pour over it

120
00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:08.199
after it comes out of the oven. And the sauce

121
00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.519
has like cream and sugar and butter, and that sounds

122
00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:12.720
soaks into it. So the only thing that's a little

123
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.639
odd in it is apricot jam. But there's really only

124
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:16.959
like a tablespoon of apricot.

125
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.920
You really love apricot jam in South Africa?

126
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.439
Yeah, so should we give it to give it a try?

127
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:29.399
No, I'll just look at it. Let's give it a try.

128
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:32.519
What did you think about the Melva pudding.

129
00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:34.199
I thought it was delicious.

130
00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:35.800
I liked it too. It's really good.

131
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.360
Taste like Kentucky buttercake a little bit. Yeah, yeah, maybe

132
00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:40.319
the sauce is similar.

133
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.399
Yeah, just a very moist cake, sweet little vanilla flavor

134
00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:45.120
in there, and.

135
00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.720
Yeah, delicious. Thank you so much. I would rate that

136
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.240
like a nine point six out of ten.

137
00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:52.279
I would rate it a nine point five out of ten.

138
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:55.959
I will post the recipe in our show notes and

139
00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:57.120
let us know if you try it.

140
00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:01.040
I had committed to not eating sugar than my birthday

141
00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:02.319
in the month of January, so.

142
00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:04.160
Ye have to make an acception.

143
00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:06.319
I can't have it both ways because I already told

144
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:08.399
you I did want vegetables. But yeah, that was great.

145
00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.160
Yeah, thank you. Let's dive back into the story of

146
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.720
Revastine camp and Oscar Pistorius. Would you like to give

147
00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.120
us a quick recap of Part one?

148
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.639
Sure would. In Part one, we talked about Oscar's childhood,

149
00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:24.120
born with a rare condition called fibular hamamlia. His parents

150
00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.639
made the heart wrenching decision to have both his legs

151
00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.439
amputated below the knee when he was just a baby,

152
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:32.000
but that turned out to be the best thing for him.

153
00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.800
He had incredible determination, driven to show everyone that he

154
00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.480
was a normal boy. His father left the family when

155
00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.680
he was young, and his mother died when he was

156
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:44.199
just fifteen. At age sixteen, Oscar took up running and

157
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.279
very quickly became the greatest Paralympic sprinter ever. He even

158
00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:52.279
competed in the London Olympic Games in twenty twelve, overcoming

159
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:56.560
many obstacles to get there. Despite his outward golden boy image,

160
00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.399
he struggled with interpersonal relationships. He developed a pairt with

161
00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:04.639
women he dated, starting out insecure and afraid of being ridiculed,

162
00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.879
then quickly grew attached and dependent. He was controlling and

163
00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:12.079
prone to rapid mood swings, going from mister nice guy

164
00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.759
to angry and rage filled at the drop of a hat.

165
00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:18.839
According to Samantha Taylor, his last serious relationship before meeting

166
00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.920
Reva Steamcamp. When we ended part one, it was November fourth,

167
00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.040
twenty twelve, Samantha had been trying to make things work

168
00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.480
with Oscar, but decided that she'd had enough. She told

169
00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:31.959
Oscar that she wasn't going to accompany him to the

170
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.600
Red Carpet Sports Awards ceremony that evening.

171
00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:37.000
Before we get back to the story, I was thinking

172
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.199
about this, and I wanted to ask you the choice

173
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.519
that his parents had to make when he was just

174
00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.199
a baby and they found out that his legs were deformed,

175
00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.759
and they had different doctors advising them of different things.

176
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.600
What would what do you think you would do if

177
00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:51.759
you put yourself in that situation like today? I think

178
00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:54.680
we have Oscar Pistorius as an example of what they

179
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:56.879
probably the best thing to do is, but they didn't

180
00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.160
have that at the time. It must have been a really,

181
00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.399
really difficult decision for them.

182
00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.959
His legs were so severely deformed that they were unusable

183
00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.000
right and he would have never been able to walk

184
00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.680
on them, no matter how many surgeries he would have had.

185
00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:11.319
So I think they made the right decision. I think

186
00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:13.240
that I would have made the same decision.

187
00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.000
Yeah, I think so too, But I can't imagine how

188
00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:16.879
hard that must have been.

189
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:19.639
Were Samantha and Oscar done done.

190
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.519
That depends on who you ask. I think I heard

191
00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:24.600
an interview with her later where she said, yes, she

192
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.879
was done. But then I've heard other interviews where she

193
00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.399
was supposedly jealous that he went out with Riva, that

194
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.720
he was cheating on her. So I'm not sure. You know,

195
00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.120
these things are always depends on who you ask and

196
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:39.279
when you ask it right. Coincidentally, the very same day

197
00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.480
that Samantha told Oscar she wouldn't accompany him to the

198
00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:47.159
Sports Awards ceremony, Oscar Metriva Steinkamp. They were introduced by

199
00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.679
a mutual friend and affluent businessman who owned several luxury

200
00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.919
car dealerships in South Africa. From the moment they met,

201
00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.000
Oscar was captivated. Reva was strikingly beautiful, but it was

202
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.000
her confidence that stood out most. She was three years

203
00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.000
older than Oscar, and he immediately sensed that she was

204
00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:07.360
more mature, more grounded, and worldly than the women he

205
00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.879
had dated before. If you remember, Samantha Taylor was seventeen

206
00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.559
when he started dating her, a year and a half earlier,

207
00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.840
so to go from someone six years younger than him

208
00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:18.919
or seven years younger than him to someone three years

209
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:20.919
older must have had quite an impact.

210
00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:21.879
On him, definitely.

211
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.840
Reva was drawn to Oscar as well. He was undeniably handsome,

212
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:29.840
with an unmistakable star quality, but beneath that public image

213
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:33.120
she saw something softer, a man who was shy, polite,

214
00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.360
almost old fashioned in his manners, with a gentle voice

215
00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:40.360
that didn't match the bravado that people associated with elite athletes.

216
00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:43.759
Oscar needed a date for the evening's events, the Sports

217
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.879
Awards he was scheduled to attend. On impulse, he asked

218
00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.480
Reva if she would go with him. She didn't hesitate.

219
00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.799
She said yes. Riven knew Oscar was well known, but

220
00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.720
she didn't fully grasp the scale of his fame until

221
00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.600
later that night, standing beside him on the red carpet

222
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:02.279
as cameras flashed and reporters crowded in. It was a

223
00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.879
different world, one that she had just stepped into.

224
00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.399
I am shocked that she said yes, because most women

225
00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.919
would be like, well, that's a black time event. What

226
00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:10.840
do I you know?

227
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.159
Yeah, well she was a model. I mean she was

228
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:14.720
a fairly successful model, so.

229
00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.000
A lot of nice dresses in her Yeah, and I.

230
00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.399
Think she was somewhat used to public attention, and you know,

231
00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.000
she was known, but obviously not on the scale that

232
00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:26.360
Oscar was known. Here's a short clip of Reva speaking

233
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.159
with a reporter that evening, that first evening they met,

234
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:30.960
in the first state that they had. It's a little

235
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:32.840
bit hard to hear her, just because she was losing

236
00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:33.759
her voice at the time.

237
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:38.480
I'm Oscar, state tonight, you needed a date to the

238
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.279
last minute, so it's likely just throw your stuff together,

239
00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.320
come and be my days's funny. Hey don't know how

240
00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.559
that worked out. Just I'm excited just to like enjoy

241
00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.039
the evening, entertainment, just everything as a whole, just a

242
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:55.480
find night out, something different, not a club, anything boring.

243
00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:56.120
It's exciting.

244
00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:59.320
Oscar is a very really sicky boy, but he doesn't

245
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:01.360
do it, and I can arrogant obnoxious way he does

246
00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:03.120
it in a very class you act to say it. Anyways,

247
00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.440
you said good suits on Yeah, so.

248
00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.600
J I think it's interesting hearing just, you know, audio

249
00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.000
from someone's first date. If we could go back to

250
00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.200
our first date and hear audio, that would be probably

251
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.559
really cringey, actually, but it would be interesting to hear.

252
00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:20.639
Why would it be cringey to hear audio from our

253
00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:21.240
first date?

254
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:24.440
It just would be I'm quite certain of that.

255
00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:25.919
I sure we have a first date, but we had

256
00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:28.000
like our first you meet, our first meeting when we

257
00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.440
met at church, Yes, at our friend's wedding.

258
00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.639
Yeah, yes, which we have talked about in the past.

259
00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:34.799
I should mention about that clip that I did. I

260
00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:37.440
cut out the reporters questions because you couldn't really hear them.

261
00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.960
So when she was talking about Oscar being a sexy boy,

262
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.240
that was in response to a reporter asking her, you know,

263
00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.960
a question along those lines.

264
00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:47.039
So she I'm sure knew of Oscar.

265
00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.279
Yeah, oh yeah. That night, after the event ended and

266
00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.559
the attention faded, Oscar and Reva stayed up talking until

267
00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.679
nearly three am. It felt effortless, unrushed, like the beginning

268
00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:00.240
of something important. Neither of them could have known how

269
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:04.240
quickly and how completely their lives were about to become intertwined.

270
00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:08.120
Riva Steencamp was born in August nineteen eighty three in

271
00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.399
Cape Town, though her family moved to Port Elizabeth when

272
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:14.879
she was still young. Her father, Barry Steencamp, worked as

273
00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.879
a racehorse trainer. Her mother, June, and her father each

274
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:22.000
had a child from their previous marriage, and they believed

275
00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.679
their family was complete until June learned she was pregnant

276
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.679
with Reva. From the moment she was born, they treated

277
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.080
her like a princess. The family was poor. The home

278
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.200
they lived in was modest, barely an improvement over the

279
00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.000
houses that black families were forced to live in during

280
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000
the apartheid era, but it was a loving household, and

281
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:44.320
Riva grew up feeling supported and adored. She was a

282
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.480
happy child who did well in school. Teachers remembered her

283
00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.120
as easy going and kind, someone who looked out for

284
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.279
others and rarely caused trouble. As a teenager, Riva entered

285
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.720
the Miss Poored Elizabeth pageant and made it to the finals,

286
00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.559
an early hint of the poise and confidence she carried naturally.

287
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.440
After finishing school, Reva set her sights on studying law.

288
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.120
Her parents couldn't afford university tuition, but she refused to

289
00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:13.000
give up. She pushed herself academically and earned a scholarship

290
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.799
to attend Nelson Mandela University, where she enrolled in a

291
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.679
Bachelor of Law program, the foundational qualification required to practice

292
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:25.440
law in South Africa. Horses were a constant presence in

293
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.840
Reva's life growing up around her father's work She loved

294
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.200
writing from an early age. She often woke before dawn

295
00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.720
to accompany him to the track, helping exercise the horses

296
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.320
he trained. It was there she met a jockey named

297
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:41.600
Wayne Agrella, and the two would date for six years.

298
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.240
While in law school, Reva suffered a serious accident. She

299
00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.799
fell from a horse and crushed too vertebrae in her spine.

300
00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.840
She spent six weeks in a hospital bed while doctors

301
00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.159
debated whether she would ever walk again, and she did,

302
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:58.840
Horses scare me so much. They're so big, and.

303
00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:03.000
That fall from yes, amazing, but yes a little scary.

304
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:06.440
Reva made a full recovery, though, but the accident changed

305
00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:11.000
her outlook. She stopped riding horses, ended her long term relationship,

306
00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.240
and began rethinking what she wanted from life. After finishing

307
00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.679
her law degree, she decided to pursue modeling. Her parents

308
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.759
were concerned, but Rever reassured them it was temporary. Law

309
00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:24.960
she promised would still be there later.

310
00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:27.279
I know I didn't know a lot about Reva Steamcamp

311
00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.600
before researching this case, but everyone thinks of her as

312
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.360
a model and a TV star. But the fact that

313
00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.399
she really she had her law degree, she was able

314
00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.720
to practice law and was planning on doing that at

315
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.840
some point. I think a lot of people, myself included,

316
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:41.960
didn't really realize.

317
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.399
Yeah. At twenty two, degree in hand, she moved to

318
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.159
Johannesburg to try to make it as a model. Her

319
00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.759
first major break came quickly. She was selected as the

320
00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.879
white representative for Avon South Africa, part of a broader

321
00:14:56.039 --> 00:15:00.080
racially representative program. Though she was slightly shorter than and

322
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.639
the typical runway model, just five seven, she signed with

323
00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.679
ICE Modeling aid agency and steadily picked up work. The

324
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.200
career defining breakthrough she hoped for hadn't yet arrived, but

325
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.000
she was earning enough money to support herself, and she

326
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:17.519
even sent money home to help her parents. Reva built

327
00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:21.080
a busy social life in Johannesburg. She loved dancing. She

328
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.120
spent time with close friends, and from two thousand and

329
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.240
eight to twenty twelve dated a businessman named Warren Lahoud.

330
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.440
In October two thousand and eight, while visiting her parents

331
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:36.120
in Port Elizabeth, Reva experienced a terrifying home invasion. She

332
00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.320
and her mother were alone when intruders ripped burglar bars

333
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.039
from a window and stormed inside. The two locked themselves

334
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.399
in a bedroom, frozen in fear as the house was ransacked.

335
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.360
The incident shook them both deeply, and each later sought counseling.

336
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.480
By twenty ten, Reva's modeling career began to gain momentum.

337
00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.480
She appeared in advertisements for a Toyota Hidden Pop, Lollipops,

338
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.639
Cardinal Beer, and Hollywood Chewing Gum. Then came a major

339
00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:06.240
milestone in twenty eleven, Riva was chosen for the cover

340
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.840
of FHM South Africa's December issue, a career breakthrough that

341
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:16.200
brought her national attention. In mid twenty twelve, another opportunity followed.

342
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.879
Reva was cast on a South African reality television series

343
00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.799
called Tropica Island of Treasure. The show featured a mix

344
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.840
of celebrities and everyday contestants competing in a luxury island

345
00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:31.679
setting for a grand prize of one million Rand roughly

346
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.960
sixty thousand US dollars. Her season was filmed in Jamaica.

347
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.759
The first episode aired just two days after Reva's death.

348
00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:42.840
That's devastating. That must have been so hard for people

349
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.279
to watch that. The show closed with Reva speaking about

350
00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:50.799
her philosophy about competition, integrity and staying true to herself.

351
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.159
You literally fall in love with Jamaica. You fall in

352
00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:56.720
love with being in love with love. So is one

353
00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:01.120
love every way. I'm going home with sort of a

354
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.880
sweet taste in my mouth. I don't have any regrets,

355
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.240
i don't have any bitterness. I take home with me

356
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.359
so many amazing memories.

357
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.160
And things that are in Pia, that are in Pia.

358
00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:15.960
But I'll treage your forever.

359
00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:19.519
I think the way that you go out, not just

360
00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:21.440
your journey in life, but the way that you go

361
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.160
out and you make your exits is so important. You

362
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.160
either made an impact in a positive way or a

363
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:32.119
negative way, but just maintain integrity and maintain class and

364
00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.640
just always be true to yourself. And I'm gonna miss

365
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.039
you all so much, and I love.

366
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:39.839
You very very much.

367
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.880
The last part, in the context of you know, airing

368
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.480
that two days after her death, just seems so wrenching.

369
00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.400
Yeah, it was a reflection of who Reaver had always been, driven,

370
00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:55.400
resilient and still searching for what came next. It didn't

371
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.359
take long for ask for Pastorius to decide that reaverstein

372
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:02.160
Camp was the one. After their first night together, he

373
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.079
told friends he had no doubts This was the woman

374
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.319
he wanted to marry, the woman he wanted to have

375
00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.799
children with. Riva leaned into his world. She took an

376
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.839
interest in the things Oscar cared about the most. She

377
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.119
went to the track with him while he trained, and

378
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.200
even took up running herself. She shared his love of

379
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.079
fast cars. She didn't move in with him, but she

380
00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.200
spent a great deal of time at his home, sometimes

381
00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.880
staying there even when Oscar was out of town. But

382
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.720
within a couple of months, familiar patterns began to re emerge.

383
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.759
Oscar wanted to be with Reva constantly. When they weren't together,

384
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.119
he fluttered her phone with messages. At first, she was unsettled.

385
00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.200
She confided to friends that she had mixed feelings about

386
00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:47.359
his intensity, that his attention sometimes felt less like affection

387
00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.839
and more like pressure. Riva was also now firmly in

388
00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.440
the public eye. It was visibility she had long wanted

389
00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.799
for her career, but now it came with added scrutiny

390
00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:02.079
and stress. Two weeks for her death, the strains surfaced,

391
00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.400
and a long text exchange between them. It followed an

392
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.799
engagement party for a mutual friend, an evening that had

393
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:13.319
clearly gone badly Reva initiated the conversation, sending Oscar a

394
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.519
message that, while lengthy, would later be seen as very revealing.

395
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.119
This first text from Riva is really really long, but

396
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.079
I thought it was important to read the whole thing

397
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.759
because it does give you a glimpse into the dynamics

398
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.680
that were shaping up in their relationship.

399
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.880
Okay, I'm not one hundred percent sure why I'm sitting

400
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.039
down to type you a message first, but perhaps it

401
00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.680
says a lot about what's going on here. Today was

402
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.359
one of my best friend's engagements, and I wanted to

403
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.599
stay longer. I was enjoying myself, but it's over now.

404
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.079
You have picked on me incessantly since you got back

405
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.000
from Cape Town, and I understand that you are sick,

406
00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.319
but it's nasty. Yesterday wasn't nice for either of us,

407
00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:55.200
but we managed to pull through and communicate well enough

408
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.440
to show our care for each other is greater than

409
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.359
the drama that attacked us. I was not f alting

410
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.480
with anyone today. I feel sick that you suggested that,

411
00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:05.640
and that you made a scene at the table and

412
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.880
made us leave early. I'm terribly disappointed and how the

413
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.720
day ended and how you left me we are living

414
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.640
in a double standard relationship where you can be mad

415
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.559
about how I deal with stuff when you are very

416
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.359
quick to act cold and offish when we're unhappy. Every

417
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.839
five seconds I hear how you dated another chick. You

418
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.440
really have dated a lot of people, yet you get

419
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.319
upset if I mentioned one funny story with a long

420
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.880
term boyfriend. I do everything to make you happy and

421
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.440
to not say anything to rock the boat with you.

422
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.119
You do everything to throw tantrums in front of people.

423
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:41.839
I have been upset by you for two days now.

424
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.599
I'm so upset. I left Darren's party early, so upset.

425
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.519
I can't get that day back. I'm scared of you

426
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.079
sometimes and how you snap at me and how you

427
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.359
will react to me. You make me happy ninety percent

428
00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.680
of the time, and I think we are amazing together.

429
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.480
But I am not some other bitch you may know

430
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.160
trying to kill your vibe. I am the girl who

431
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.599
let go with you even when I was scared out

432
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:07.839
of my mind too. I'm the girl who fell in

433
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:10.599
love with you and wanted to tell you this weekend.

434
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.319
But I'm also the girl that gets sidestepped when you

435
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.839
are in a ship mood. When I feel you think

436
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.200
you have me, so why try anymore? I get snapped

437
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.119
at and told my accents and voices are annoying. I

438
00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.400
touch your neck to show you I care. You tell

439
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.839
me to stop stop chewing gum, do this, don't do that.

440
00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.680
You don't want to hear stuff. You cut me off,

441
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:35.000
your endorsements, your reputation, your impression of something innocent, blown

442
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:37.680
out of proportion, and fucked up a special day for me.

443
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.599
I'm sorry if you truly felt I was hitting on

444
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.680
my friend Sam's husband, and I'm sorry that you think

445
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.359
that little of me. From the outside, it looks like

446
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.039
we are a struggle, and maybe that's what we are.

447
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.400
I just want to love and be loved, be happy,

448
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.079
and make someone happy so happy. Maybe we can't do

449
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.680
that for each other, because right now I know you

450
00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:02.720
aren't happy, and I am certainly very unhappy and sad.

451
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.200
Oscar replied, I want to talk to you. I want

452
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.279
to sort this out. I don't want to have anything

453
00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:10.839
less than amazing for you, and I I'm sorry for

454
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.519
the things I say without thinking, and for taking offense

455
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:15.839
to some of your actions. The fact that I'm tired

456
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.960
and sick isn't an excuse I'm sorry. I wanted to go,

457
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.559
but I was hungry and upset, and although you knew it,

458
00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:23.319
it wasn't like you came to chat to me when

459
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.720
I left the table. I was upset when I left

460
00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.119
you because I thought you were coming to me. I'm

461
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.519
sorry I asked you to stop touching my neck yesterday.

462
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:32.319
I know you were just trying to show me love.

463
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.799
I had a mad headache and should have just spoken

464
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:37.720
to you softly. I'm sorry. I think that's a really

465
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.279
interesting exchange. To me, it shows Reva was definitely more mature,

466
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.000
Like it's a really long message to send over text,

467
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.759
But the way she worded things I thought was very

468
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:49.319
in a mature way.

469
00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.079
And I was it mature or was she trying to

470
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.839
evade his wrath? She was careful in her words not

471
00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:59.400
to blame him outright. Yeah, she was making, you know,

472
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.559
kind of making excuses. I know you didn't feel well, and.

473
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.359
Yeah, I thought she was just trying to have a

474
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.640
more of a civil conversation about it and you know,

475
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.119
raise something up that was obviously bothering her and try

476
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.400
to do it in a respectful way. But he didn't know.

477
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:14.920
His reply was sort of, oh, I'm sorry, but I

478
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.559
you know, I had a headache or I was hungry,

479
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:18.039
so he was kind of making excuses.

480
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.640
After Reva's death, prosecutors would return to this exchange repeatedly.

481
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:25.720
They argued that the messages showed a woman who was

482
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.559
increasingly unhappy and potentially preparing to leave the relationship, and

483
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.599
as domestic violence experts often note, women are statistically at

484
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.839
greatest risk when they attempt to end a relationship. Do

485
00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:40.160
you know how long this was into their relationship?

486
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:43.400
It was only two to three months, I think, I

487
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.039
mean they only dated for three and a half months

488
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:46.640
total before she was killed.

489
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:48.079
I was thinking of his previos.

490
00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:50.559
And this was I think two weeks before she was shot.

491
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.200
Prosecutors highlighted one line in particular, I'm scared of you

492
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.079
sometimes and how you snap at me. At the same time,

493
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.960
they acknowledged an an important counterpoint. Outside of exchanges like

494
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.480
this one, the overwhelming majority of Oscar and Riva's text

495
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:12.119
messages were affectionate, playful, loving, and warm. Like many relationships,

496
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:16.160
theres existed in contradictions, and those contradictions would soon be

497
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:18.880
examined under the harshest possible light.

498
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.319
Even though the vast majority of their text messages were

499
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.319
positive and affectionate. I think something like this only two

500
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.960
to three months into their relationships such a red flag.

501
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.839
I mean, two to three months, you're still in that

502
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.440
honeymoon phase. But the fact that they're already having serious

503
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:36.640
issues where he's saying, you're flirting with another man at

504
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.480
a party and getting upset with her about things like that,

505
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:40.680
that's not a good sign.

506
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.519
No, it is definitely a huge red flag. We'll be

507
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:44.759
back after a break.

508
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.559
While Oscar was dating Reva, he became involved in two

509
00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:58.799
separate controversies, neither directly related to their relationship, that he

510
00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:01.440
fought desperately to keep out of the public eye. The

511
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:05.839
first centered on Quinton Vanderberg, the wealthy businessman Oscar believed

512
00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:09.160
had crossed a line with his former girlfriend, Samantha Taylor.

513
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.599
If you recall when Oscar was at the Paralympic Games

514
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:16.319
in the summer of twenty twelve, she went to Dubai

515
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.799
with this Quinton Vanderberg. In her mind, she and Oscar

516
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:23.200
were broken up. In his mind, she was cheating on him.

517
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:23.680
That's right.

518
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.880
Back in October, while Oscar and Samantha were making one

519
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:31.039
final attempt to repair their relationship, Oscar encountered Vanderberg at

520
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:35.599
a racetrack, words were exchanged. Oscar later downplayed the confrontation,

521
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.920
saying he merely told Vanderberg that he didn't respect what

522
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.599
he had done taking his girlfriend on a trip while

523
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.680
Oscar was away competing. Other witnesses, though, described something far

524
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.279
more volatile. According to those accounts, Oscar was shouting and

525
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.160
issuing threats, at one point, allegedly telling Vanderberg he would

526
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:57.039
break his legs. Vanderbergh was a dangerous person to threaten.

527
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:00.279
He was connected to men with reputations that were at

528
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.279
best unsettling. One was a man named Mark Bachelor, a

529
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.400
former professional soccer player. Years later, in twenty nineteen, Bachelor

530
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.519
would be murdered, shot multiple times through the windshield of

531
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.000
his car in what appeared to be a professional hit.

532
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.480
Another associate was Mikey Schultz, a security guard, former boxer,

533
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.519
and self confessed hit man. In December, Oscar was assaulted

534
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.839
at a nightclub in Johannesburg and required stitches to the

535
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.400
back of his head. While he never publicly identified his attacker,

536
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.720
many assumed it was Bachelor, Schultz, or someone connected to them.

537
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.680
When a journalist later learned of the incident and contacted

538
00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:40.440
Oscar for comment. Pistorius was frantic. Please don't write this,

539
00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:43.759
he pleaded, it could ruin me. The reporter held the

540
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.920
story it wouldn't be published until after Riva's death.

541
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.279
Well, that is crazy that the journalists would hold the

542
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:51.440
story for Oscar. Yeah.

543
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.200
I think that wasn't the only example of that happening.

544
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.359
I think people really he had this golden boy image.

545
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:58.920
Nobody wanted to tarnish it.

546
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:00.680
That's dangerous for sure.

547
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:05.920
The second incident in January involved Oscar's relationship with firearms.

548
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.200
He was dining at an upscale restaurant with friends when

549
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.640
one of them mentioned he had recently purchased a new

550
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.279
glock pistol. Oscar asked to see it. Knowing that Oscar

551
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:17.880
was experienced with guns. The friend passed it to him

552
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:21.279
under the table, explicitly warning him that it was loaded.

553
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:25.160
Moments later, the gun discharged. A bullet struck the floor

554
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.599
and ricocheted through the restaurant. Miraculously, no one was seriously injured.

555
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.680
Oscar immediately shifted into damage control mode. He asked the

556
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.240
friend if he would take responsibility and say that he

557
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:38.400
had been holding the gun when it went off. In

558
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.400
order to shield Oscar from negative publicity. The friend agreed.

559
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.079
Taken individually, each incident might have seemed isolated, but together

560
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:51.440
they pained a troubling picture. A man under pressure, increasingly volatile,

561
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:55.880
reckless with weapons, and terrified of what public scrutiny might reveal.

562
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.400
And all of it was unfolding just weeks before Valentine's

563
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.240
Day twenty five thirteen. On February seventh, twenty thirteen, just

564
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.599
a week before Valentine's Day, Oscar Pastorius met with his

565
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.279
agent to review the commercial opportunities that were flooding in

566
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.559
after his Olympic appearance. The mood was celebratory. His agent

567
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.599
was practically giddy. You're going to make stupid money, he

568
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.599
told Oscar, stupid money. Together they reviewed and signed a

569
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.839
stack of endorsement contracts. Some were extensions of existing deals

570
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.279
with Nike, Oakley Sunglasses, and Oser, the maker of Oscar's

571
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.160
Cheetah blades. Another deal from an unnamed US based company

572
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.480
was even larger, worth nearly three times what Nike was

573
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.480
paying him. Oscar's earning power had never been higher. During

574
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.400
the meeting, he spoke casually to his agent about his

575
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.960
personal life. He told him that He and Riva were

576
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:50.519
planning trips later that year to Italy and Rioji Janeiro.

577
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:53.359
He said they were both excited. It sounded like the

578
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:57.200
future was opening up. But one week later, Riva Steamcamp

579
00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:01.319
would be dead. Oscar Pastorius would lose every sponsorship he

580
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.720
had just signed and would go on to spend his

581
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.400
entire fortune on legal fees. In the space of seven days,

582
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.000
the life that he had been building vanished. What happened

583
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.880
in the early hours of February fourteenth, twenty thirteen ultimately

584
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.759
depends on whether you believe Oscar Pistorius's account or the

585
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.240
version later advanced by prosecutors. What is undisputed is this,

586
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.319
just after three a m Oscar fired four shots through

587
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.559
a closed door leading into a small toilet room part

588
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.880
of a larger bathroom in his home at the Silverwoods Estate.

589
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.400
Three of the bullets struck Reva steam Camp. One hit

590
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.960
her hip, shattering the bone, another struck her arm, a

591
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.799
third entered her head. The ammunition Oscar used was hollow

592
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.680
point or dumb dumb bullets, designed to expand on impact

593
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.119
rather than pass through a body. The effect was catastrophic,

594
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.839
making Reva's injuries far more severe. After the shooting, Oscar

595
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.559
broke through the locked bathroom door with a cricket bat Inside,

596
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.920
he found Riva collapsed on the floor, her body crumpled,

597
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.880
her face resting against the toilet. At three nineteen am,

598
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:11.880
Oscar called his neighbor and friend, Johann Stander, who also

599
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:16.920
managed the Silverwoods estate. The call lasted just twenty four seconds. Johan,

600
00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:20.359
please please come to my house, Oscar cried. I shot Reva.

601
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:23.880
I thought she was an intruder. Please please, please come quick.

602
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:28.279
Oscar then called emergency services and alerted a state security

603
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.200
He lifted Riva's body and carried her out of the

604
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.920
bathroom down the marble staircase toward the main floor. About

605
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.680
halfway down the stairs, a security guard arrived. Moments later,

606
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:42.680
Johann Stander entered the house with his adult daughter. Oscar

607
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.920
laid Riva on a rug in the sitting room near

608
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.960
the front door. Oscar, Stander and his daughter tried desperately

609
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.039
to stop the bleeding with towels, It was already hopeless.

610
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.839
Shortly after, a doctor named Johann Stip arrived. Stip lived

611
00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.599
roughly one hundred yards away and had been awakened by

612
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.200
the guns when he asked what had happened. Oscar sobbed

613
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:05.480
I shot her. I thought she was a burglar. I

614
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:09.880
shot her. Stip performed a brief examination. It was immediately

615
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:12.599
clear to him that Riva could not be saved. At

616
00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:16.400
three p forty three am, an ambulance arrived. Riva Steinkamp

617
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.400
was pronounced dead at the scene. Overcome with grief, Oscar

618
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:23.359
went upstairs and called his friend Justin, the man who

619
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:25.519
had introduced him to Riva just three and a half

620
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:28.799
months earlier. There has been a terrible accident, Oscar said,

621
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:31.960
I shot Riva. I shot Riva. It was an accident.

622
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:35.240
Justin asked how badly she was hurt. I've killed her.

623
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:38.680
Oscar cried, I've killed my baba. God take me away.

624
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:43.519
Police soon arrived. Hilton Botha, the lead detective, took control

625
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:47.240
of the crime scene and ordered extensive photographs of the house,

626
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:51.599
the bathroom, and of Oscar himself. Still wearing blood soaked

627
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:56.119
basketball shorts, Oscar was transported to a hospital for evaluation.

628
00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:01.240
Investigators collected samples from under his fingernails, examined his body

629
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:04.640
for scratches or bruises, and tested his blood in urine.

630
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.359
The results showed no signs of a struggle, no alcohol,

631
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.039
no drugs. From there, Oscar was taken to a nearby

632
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.920
police station, where he was met by his attorney, who

633
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:18.640
instructed police that his client would not be answering questions.

634
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.680
Oscar Pastorius spent that night in a jail cell, sleeping

635
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:26.200
on a blanket laid over a concrete floor. The next morning,

636
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.440
he appeared before a magistrate and was formally charged with

637
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.599
premeditated murder. A bail hearing was scheduled for Tuesday, February nineteenth.

638
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.000
The story of what happened inside that house and why

639
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:39.400
was only beginning.

640
00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:42.920
You said that Oscar called his friend Johann first and

641
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.000
then called emergency services. Why did he not call emergency

642
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:47.880
services first?

643
00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:49.880
I don't know. It's a good question. I know the

644
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.640
friend that he called was a neighbor that was very

645
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.519
close and he also managed the gated community, so.

646
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:57.920
It could be that medical professional.

647
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.640
No, he wasn't a medical professional. But I think in

648
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.240
South Africa, when you live in like a gated community

649
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.079
like that, a lot of the security, the services are

650
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.480
provided within the community. So he may have just thought

651
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.720
the guy that he called was the manager of the community,

652
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.880
so he may have thought I'm going to call him first.

653
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.000
I don't know though, It's just speculation.

654
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:18.279
Although Oscar's full explanation of what he's had happened that

655
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.759
night would not be formally presented until his bail hearing,

656
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.920
let's cover that now. According to Pastorius, the evening began

657
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:30.000
quietly around ten pm. He and Riva were preparing for bad.

658
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:33.200
Reva was doing yoga in the bedroom while Oscar lay

659
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:37.359
in bed watching television, his prosthetic legs already removed for

660
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.519
the night. Once Reva finished her yoga, she joined him

661
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.920
in bad. Oscar said they fell asleep quickly. In the

662
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:46.799
early hours of the morning. Oscar claimed he woke up

663
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:49.720
and remembered that he had left two fans outside in

664
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:53.519
the balcony. He disliked sleeping with air conditioning on, saying

665
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.599
it interfered with his breathing, so we often used fans

666
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.240
to pull fresh air into the room. He got up

667
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.519
on his stumps, went on to the balcony, moved the fans,

668
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.759
and closed the sliding door. Back inside the bedroom, he

669
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.440
draped a pair of jeans over the stereo to block

670
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.880
its led lights. He said he was extremely sensitive to

671
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:14.840
light when trying to sleep. The bedroom, he said, was

672
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.360
now pitch black. At that point, Oscar claimed he heard

673
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:21.199
a noise coming from the bathroom down the hall. He

674
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.119
said he heard the bathroom window slide open, a window

675
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:27.239
he knew was prone to squeaking, followed by a movement

676
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:31.400
inside the bathroom. He described an immediate surge of terror.

677
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.039
There were no burglar bars on the bathroom window, and

678
00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.960
Oscar knew that contractors who had been working on the

679
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:40.199
house had left ladders outside. He said his fear of

680
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.880
intruders and violet crime ran deep rooted in both his

681
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.440
upbringing and his mother's own anxieties about home invasions. Oscar

682
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:52.000
said he grabbed his nine millimeters pistol from beneath his bed.

683
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:56.199
Still on his stumps and still in complete darkness, he

684
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.280
left the bedroom and told Reva, whom he believed was

685
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.199
still in bed, to phone the police. As he moved

686
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.840
down the hallway, he shouted at the unseen presence in

687
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.719
the bathroom, get out, get out of my fucking house.

688
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.599
Approaching the bathroom cautiously, Oscar said he saw that the

689
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.159
window was indeed open, confirming in his mind that someone

690
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:18.559
had broken in the door to the small toilet cubicle

691
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:22.400
inside the bathroom was closed, and he assumed the intruder

692
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.039
had taken refuge there. From the hallway, he fired four

693
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.559
shots through the closed door. He then retreated back towards

694
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:32.559
the bedroom. It was only then Oscar said that he

695
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:36.480
realized Reva was not in bed, and only then, he claimed,

696
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.639
did it slowly begin to dawn on him what had happened.

697
00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:43.199
We will, of course, examine Oscar's story in detail when

698
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.559
we get to the trial. But what is your first

699
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.119
reaction to hearing his explanation of what happened?

700
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:51.639
I mean, I remember hearing when this happened, and I

701
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.599
don't think I ever quite believed his story. What do

702
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:55.199
you think.

703
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.199
I'm in a little different situation because I've done the

704
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.760
entire research, and I've learned what happened in the trial

705
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.079
and everything like that. So I don't want to give

706
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:04.559
too much of an opinion, but I agree. The first

707
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.519
time I heard the story, I thought that seems really unlikely, right.

708
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.760
It was widely known that Oscar Pistorius lived in fear

709
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.599
of crime. He resided in Silverwoods Estate, a high security

710
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:21.079
complex surrounded by electrified twelve foot perimeter walls standard for

711
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.800
affluent neighborhoods in South Africa. The estate was protected by

712
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:29.960
surveillance cameras, underground motion sensors that could summon armed response teams,

713
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:34.039
and an exhaustive entry process. Residents had to scan their

714
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:38.440
fingerprints to gain access. Visitors were required to present identification

715
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.760
and be cleared before entry. Uniformed guards patrolled constantly. Even

716
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:48.480
by those standards, Oscar went further. He installed his own

717
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:51.639
home alarm system. He kept a gun under his bed,

718
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:55.079
both a cricket bat and a baseball bat behind his

719
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.719
bedroom door. He carried a firearm almost everywhere. When driving,

720
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:02.800
he often believed that he was being followed at night.

721
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:06.920
He parked only in welded areas. In restaurants, he checked

722
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.519
exits and insisted on sitting with his back to the wall.

723
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:14.199
If he heard an unexpected noise, a car back firing,

724
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.880
a sudden bang, he was known to reach instinctively for

725
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.719
his gun. Oscar also struggled to sleep. He would lie

726
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:25.840
awake for hours listening for sounds. On one occasion, he

727
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.199
heard what he believed was an intruder, grabbed his firearm

728
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:32.599
and rushed out to confront them, only to discover it

729
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.000
was a friend staying overnight up getting a glass of water.

730
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:39.719
On another occasion, while watching a movie at a friend's house,

731
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.880
he dozed off. The sound of gunfire in the film

732
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.679
jolded him awake, and he bolted from the room in

733
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.800
a panic. Oscar's fear, while extreme, did not exist in

734
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:53.639
a vacuum. In twenty thirteen, South Africa ranked among the

735
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.400
most violent countries in the world ever drink roughly forty

736
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.320
five murders a day. For many sous South Africans, constant

737
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:06.639
vigilance was not paranoia. It was survival. Home invasions, burglaries,

738
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:11.159
and smash and grab robberies were routine. The private security

739
00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:15.360
industry reflected that reality. More than four hundred thousand people

740
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.960
were employed in private security, more than double the number

741
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:23.800
of official police officers nationwide. Prime in South Africa was deeply

742
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.199
tied to its economic and social divides. The majority of

743
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:31.840
South Africans live in poverty and inequality. Against that backdrop,

744
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:35.360
many South Africans found it easier to believe Oscar's claim

745
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.960
that he had fired in panic, mistaking his girlfriend for

746
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:42.559
an intruder. But there was another reality that could not

747
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:47.119
be ignored. South Africa was the global epicenter of violence

748
00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:50.559
against women. At the time, statistics showed that a woman

749
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:55.719
or girl was raped approximately every three minutes Holy Cow,

750
00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:58.360
and that a woman was killed by her male partner

751
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.039
every eight hours. Less than two weeks before Reva's death,

752
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.760
the country had been shaken by the brutal rape and

753
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:08.519
murder of a nin Boyson, a seventeen year old girl

754
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:11.440
who was gang raped, mutilated, and left to die at

755
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.800
a construction site near a bar where she'd been socializing

756
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.920
with friends. The case sparked nationwide outrage. In one of

757
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:22.360
her final tweets, Reva responded to a nin Boyson's death,

758
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.480
I woke up in a happy, safe home this morning.

759
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:29.480
Not everyone did speak out against the rape of individuals.

760
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:33.079
When the news broke of Reva's killing, South Africa split

761
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:38.480
among familiar lines. For some, Oscar's story sounded tragically plausible.

762
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.199
For many others, it sounded like something else entirely, and

763
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.880
it was within that deeply divided context fear of crime

764
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.159
on one side, endemic violence against women on the other,

765
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.719
that the case would be judged We'll be back after

766
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:53.159
a break.

767
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:03.480
Police statements in the days after the shooting helped to

768
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:07.280
shape and in some ways distort the public narrative. At

769
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:10.440
the close of an early press conference, a police spokesperson

770
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.599
dropped a tantalizing detail. She said that officers had previously

771
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:18.639
been called to Oscar's home. When pressed, she declined to elaborate,

772
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:22.880
saying only that the calls involved allegations of a domestic nature.

773
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.800
The implication was obvious. Many people came away believing that

774
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.360
police had responded to earlier incidents of fighting or abuse

775
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:34.199
between Oscar and Reva, but that wasn't true. The only

776
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:37.400
prior incident that police were referring to was the two

777
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.920
thousand and nine case that we talked about in Part one,

778
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:42.719
in which a woman accused Oscar of assault at a

779
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:46.320
party years before he had even met Reva. Whatever one

780
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:49.159
believes about that incident, it was a far cry from

781
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:53.000
what the police statement suggested. In hindsight, it appeared less

782
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.679
like clarification and more like implication, language that subtly encouraged

783
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.239
the public to draw its own conclusions. Police also announced

784
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.360
that they had discovered steroids and testosterone in Oscar's bedroom,

785
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:10.360
along with needles. The suggestion was unmistakable, a volatile athlete,

786
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:14.800
possibly fueled by drugs, overcome by rage, But that claim too,

787
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.440
would later unravel Under oath, the detective responsible admitted that

788
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:23.079
what had been found was not steroids or testosterone at all,

789
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.000
but a legal over the counter herbal supplement. The initial

790
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.920
statement had been wrong, but by then the damage was done.

791
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:35.199
As the days passed, public opinion increasingly turned against Pistorius,

792
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:40.159
especially as previously suppressed stories like the restaurant's shooting began

793
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:45.000
to surface. Still, he was not without supporters. A former girlfriend,

794
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:48.639
Jenna Edkins, posted publicly, I would just like to say

795
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:51.480
I have dated Oscar on and off for five years.

796
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.239
Not once has he ever lifted a finger to me

797
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:57.440
or made me fear for my life. Unlike the O. J.

798
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.880
Simpson case in the United States, public reaction in South

799
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.800
Africa did not split cleanly along racial lines. Both the

800
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.000
accused and the victim were white, removing the most obvious

801
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:13.159
racial dimension. Still patterns emerged. Many white South Africans appeared

802
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.199
more skeptical of Oscar's account, while many black South Africans

803
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:20.360
were more sympathetic. His loss of his mother at age

804
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:24.480
fifteen resonated deeply with people who saw that grief as

805
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:27.960
central to who he was, while Oscar's guilt or innocence

806
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.800
would ultimately be decided in court. The marketplace rendered its

807
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:37.159
verdict almost immediately. Within twenty four hours, advertisers began cutting ties.

808
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:41.360
Billboards featuring Oscar's image were taken down across the country,

809
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:46.239
including a Nike advertisement bearing the unfortunate tagline I am

810
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.480
the bullet in the chamber before a single witness testified,

811
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:54.559
Oscar Pistorius's public life had already collapsed, and the trial,

812
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.199
still weeks away, had begun. In the court of public opinion,

813
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.960
Oscar's family did him no favors in the weeks following

814
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.760
Reva Steinkamp's death. The day after the shooting, Oscar's father,

815
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:09.679
Henka Pistorius, spoke to the press. Hanka, if you remember,

816
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:13.559
had been largely absent from Oscar's life since divorcing Sheila

817
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:17.360
years earlier, but now he stepped into the spotlight. Rather

818
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.920
than expressing sympathy for Riva's family or restraint in the

819
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:25.360
face of an unfolding investigation, Hanka placed blame elsewhere. He

820
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:29.679
criticized the ruling African National Congress, the party of Nelson Mandela,

821
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:33.199
arguing that its failure to protect white South Africans from

822
00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:37.920
crime had forced people like himself and Oscar to arm themselves.

823
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.920
The remarks carried clear racist undertones, They sparked immediate backlash

824
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.400
and widespread outrage, and they embarrassed Oscar at a moment

825
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:50.760
when public sympathy was already eroding. Then just weeks later,

826
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:55.519
another damaging story emerged. It became public that Oscar's older brother,

827
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:59.119
Karl Pistorius, had been involved in a fatal incident five

828
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.679
years earlier. Karl had struck a motorcycle with his car,

829
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:05.599
killing the woman who was riding it. At the time,

830
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.719
authorities had ruled it an accident and dropped the charges,

831
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:11.519
but now, in the wake of Riva's death, the state

832
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:15.760
reopened the case. Carl was charged with culpable homicide and

833
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.599
went on trial at the end of March. Ultimately, the

834
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.719
magistrate ruled in his favor, concluding that the death had

835
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.559
been accidental, and Karl walked free, But the damage was

836
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:29.760
already done to many observers. The revelation reinforced a growing

837
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:33.880
narrative that Oscar Pistorius came from a family surrounded by

838
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:37.719
controversy and tragedy, fair or not, It further darkened the

839
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:40.239
public's view of him as he awaited his own day

840
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:43.360
in court. And by this point almost every new headline

841
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.960
seemed to make his situation worse. Oscar Pistorius spent five

842
00:44:48.039 --> 00:44:51.239
nights in jail awaiting his bail hearing. During that time,

843
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.639
he barely ate and complained of constant headaches. When the

844
00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:58.800
hearing began, Oscar's legal team submitted his sworn affidavit, his

845
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:01.599
detailed written account of what he claimed had happened the

846
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:05.000
night that Riva was killed. Legal observers were struck by

847
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:08.840
how granular the statement was from a defense perspective. Some

848
00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:12.480
felt that it revealed too much too early, locking Oscar

849
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.159
into a version of events before the state had even

850
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.480
fully presented its case. The state's position at the bail

851
00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:22.719
hearing quickly began to unravel. The lead detective Hilton Botha,

852
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.320
took the stand, but his testimony did more damage than help.

853
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.679
Under cross examination, Oscar's defense team exposed a series of

854
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:35.239
serious missteps. Botha had mishandled the crime scene, lost track

855
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:38.440
of ammunition found inside the house, and failed to wear

856
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.519
protective gear while moving through key areas of the home.

857
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:45.000
He was also confronted over his earlier public claim that

858
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:48.599
testosterone and steroids had been found in Oscar's bedroom and

859
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:52.079
assertion he was forced to concede was false. What had

860
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:56.039
actually been discovered was a legal herbal supplement. Then came

861
00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:59.480
the most damaging revelation of all. It emerged that Botha

862
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:04.159
himself was facing seven counts of attempted murder. The charges

863
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:06.960
stemmed from an incident two years earlier in which he

864
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:11.119
had opened fire on a van carrying multiple passengers. Botha

865
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:13.920
claimed he believed the vehicle was attempting to ram him

866
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:17.559
while fleeing. Although the charges had initially been dropped, they

867
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:21.400
were reinstated around the time of Riva's death. The optics

868
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:25.639
were disastrous. Shortly after the bail hearing, Botha was removed

869
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:28.960
from the case and forced to resign from the police service.

870
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:32.280
That is just crazy to me that the lead detective

871
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.280
in this case was accused of attempted murder of seven people.

872
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:41.000
There is a lot of speculation that people wanted him

873
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:43.199
removed from the case because the incident had happened two

874
00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:46.679
years earlier, But people wanted him removed from the case

875
00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.360
because he wasn't a very good like He had made

876
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.000
mistakes and they were easy to kind of point those out,

877
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:55.440
And so the speculation was that this case was brought

878
00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:59.840
back up precisely to get him removed from the Pastoria's case.

879
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.760
Well, the Pastorious case is so high profile, you want

880
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.400
your best people, Yeah, with no shady backgrounds on it, right. Yeah.

881
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.079
There are a lot of parallels to like the oj

882
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:11.639
Simpson case, you know, with Mark Furman and a lot

883
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:13.320
of things coming up from his past.

884
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.960
So you know, a good defense is always going to

885
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:19.679
find something and point those things out too. Yeah.

886
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:23.679
Absolutely. In the end, the magistrate ruled that Oscar Pistorius

887
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:26.679
would be granted bail. He was required to post one

888
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:30.760
million Rand roughly sixty thousand US dollars, and surrender his

889
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.519
passport at all firearms. He was also barred from returning

890
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.440
to his home. Instead, he moved in with his uncle,

891
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:41.440
Arnold Pistorius. When bail was granted, Oscar broke down in

892
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:46.119
tears of relief. Public reaction was swift and furious. Many

893
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:49.480
South Africans saw the decision as a textbook case of

894
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:53.480
rich boys justice. At that time, an estimated forty six

895
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:57.480
thousand people were sitting in jail awaiting trials, many accused

896
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:01.199
of far lesser crimes than the murder charge that Oscar faced.

897
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:04.679
For them, bail was a luxury they would never be offered,

898
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.400
and as Oscar Pastorius walked free, the divide between his

899
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:12.880
legal fortunes and public opinion only widened by most measures.

900
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:17.239
Oscar Pistorius was living in extraordinary comfort as he awaited trial.

901
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:20.400
His uncle, Arnold, was a wealthy businessman who lived in

902
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.639
a sprawling mansion in watercloof Ridge, one of the most

903
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:28.199
exclusive neighborhoods in Pretoria. The property was heavily fortified, A

904
00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:31.800
moat surrounded the grounds, and armed security guards were stationed

905
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.280
there around the clock. Inside the house featured a private

906
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:38.840
movie theater, a swimming pool, a fully equipped gym, and

907
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:42.239
a full staff on hand to meet any need. Oscar

908
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.639
rarely left the estate in the year leading up to

909
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:48.519
his trial. Twelve days after Reva was killed, Oscar held

910
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.400
a small memorial service on the grounds of his uncle's home.

911
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.760
About twenty people attended, mostly Oscar's family members and a

912
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:59.199
handful of mutual friends who had remained loyal to him.

913
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.480
Although the service itself was private, Oscar's public relations firm

914
00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:07.880
alerted the media in advance. That decision drew immediate criticism,

915
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:11.639
with many observers concluding the memorial was less about mourning

916
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.760
Reva and more about managing Oscar's image.

917
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:17.599
So she had a funeral with her friends and family.

918
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:20.559
Yeah, which I'm sure was attended by far more.

919
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:22.159
People than But Oscar didn't attend.

920
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.159
No, he did not.

921
00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:24.880
He probably was not invited.

922
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:25.159
No.

923
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.360
Oscar's uncle, Arnold, also reached out directly to Riva's mother,

924
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.519
June Stemcamp, to ask whether she would be open to

925
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.960
speaking with Oscar personally. Her response was unequivocal. I've got

926
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:38.559
nothing to say to you, and I don't want to

927
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.000
hear anything that you've got to say. Arnold apologized and

928
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:42.920
ended the call.

929
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.679
Did Reva's family know Oscar? They hadn't been together that long.

930
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:48.679
Had they met him and spent time with him?

931
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.159
I don't believe they actually met him until the trial.

932
00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:58.760
Inside Arnold's house, Oscar's emotional state deteriorated. Surrounded by luxury,

933
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:03.199
he nonetheless seemed to retreat into himself. Family members later

934
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:07.800
said he regressed emotionally, almost reverting to childhood. He required

935
00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:12.480
constant supervision and reassurance, attention largely provided by his aunt,

936
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:16.199
a cousin, and his younger sister Amy. Those closest to

937
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:19.159
him were deeply concerned about his mental health, there was

938
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.440
a persistent fear that Oscar might take his own life.

939
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.639
Arnold shared a statistic with the family that roughly twenty

940
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.199
percent of people who killed a loved one, regardless of circumstance,

941
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:33.519
later died by suicide. He urged them to watch Oscar closely,

942
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:36.880
to monitor his moods, and to remind him again and

943
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:41.719
again that his life still had purpose. Publicly, Oscar Pastorius

944
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:46.360
was seen as a man living in comfort, insulated from consequences. Privately,

945
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:50.480
those around him feared that they were watching someone come undone.

946
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:53.920
Do you know before Reva's death, did Oscar plan on

947
00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:58.400
participating in another Olympics, Not par Olympics, but yeah.

948
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:00.760
The actual Olympic games. I don't know for sure. I

949
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:03.840
would speculate that, yes, he probably was planning on it.

950
00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:06.280
He was still, you know, twenty six years old. Yeah,

951
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.440
the next Olympics would be in a couple lot.

952
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:11.320
Of runners don't peak until their thirties, that's true, right.

953
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.719
I think you're right. Yeah, So I'm sure he probably

954
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:15.719
planned on it, but I don't know for sure. I

955
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:18.320
think we are going to end part two here for now,

956
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:20.679
but I do have a few questions for you. We

957
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:24.039
talked about Oscar's fear of crime. Do you think that

958
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:28.239
his fear of crime made sense given South Africa's situation.

959
00:51:28.280 --> 00:51:30.159
We also talked about South Africa being, you know, one

960
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:34.079
of the leading countries in terms of violent crime burglary.

961
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:38.159
President of South Africa must be fearful of personal crime

962
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:38.639
all the time.

963
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:41.280
Yeah, although in Oscar's case, he lived in a very

964
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:45.840
wealthy neighborhood. They had armed security guards everywhere, bars over

965
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:47.320
the windows and all of that.

966
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:50.480
So we didn't talk about that when you were reading that,

967
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:54.320
but wow, that was a lot high security.

968
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:57.400
Yeah, so it seems like that would if you know,

969
00:51:57.480 --> 00:51:59.480
it's hard to put yourself in the situation, but it

970
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:01.440
feels like if you lived in that situation, you would

971
00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:04.440
feel as secure as you possibly could. But I think

972
00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.360
he is upbringing and just you know, living in South

973
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.440
Africa probably just raises your level of anxiety.

974
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:13.320
Well, did he view himself as a target because of

975
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:14.679
his celebrity status.

976
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:16.840
I think he did a little bit. I think he

977
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:18.800
you know, one of the things we mentioned is when

978
00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:21.239
he would be driving, he would think people were following him,

979
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:23.320
and I think a lot of that was probably due

980
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:25.960
to his celebrity status. Or when he would go to restaurants,

981
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:28.280
he would be really paranoid. So I'm sure it had

982
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:29.320
something to do with that too.

983
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:31.639
You probably don't know this, but the neighborhood that he

984
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.519
lived in sounds super secure. Were there any incidents of

985
00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:39.679
anyone ever, you know, getting in and causing you know,

986
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:41.559
any robberies or.

987
00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:43.679
Yeah, I don't. I don't know that. I mean, I

988
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:46.119
would suspect with the amount of security there that the

989
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:48.840
answer is no, But I don't know for sure. We

990
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.039
talked about the relationship between Oscar and Reva, so they

991
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:53.559
had only been going out for three and a half

992
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:56.920
months before she was killed. We read these text messages,

993
00:52:57.320 --> 00:52:59.599
but do you think I know, it's hard, it's impossible

994
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.800
to say for sure, but do you think that Reva

995
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:05.239
would have probably left Oscar at some point in the

996
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.119
near term, just based on that text exchange that she

997
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:11.239
was feeling like he was being kind of controlling, he

998
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.760
was being jealous when he shouldn't have been jealous.

999
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:17.480
She seemed like a very confident woman, and you know,

1000
00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:20.239
I'd like to think that she she would have left.

1001
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:22.599
Yeah, that's what I think too, because she seemed like

1002
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:27.119
very like you said, very confident. Very poised, sure of herself.

1003
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:30.559
So I would think that's not something she would put

1004
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.039
up with for that.

1005
00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:33.599
And that's implying that if a woman stays that, she's

1006
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:36.079
not confident and poised. And you know, women have a

1007
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.280
lot of different reasons for staying in relationships. And she

1008
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:43.000
was probably you know, a nurturer and a caregiver, and

1009
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:46.199
she wanted to protect Oscar and yeah, you know, love

1010
00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.880
him and show him that he was worthy of someone's

1011
00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:50.679
love and he didn't need to be insecure.

1012
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:53.480
Yeah, that's a really good point. We talked about some

1013
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.840
firearms related incidents that Oscar had previously. The one in

1014
00:53:57.880 --> 00:53:59.840
the restaurant is the one that stands out or friend

1015
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:02.440
gave him a gun in a restaurant to show him

1016
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:06.000
and it went off in a crowded restaurant, which is terrifying.

1017
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.320
There were other incidents as well, like the one time

1018
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:11.239
Oscar woke up in the night, heard something came out

1019
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:13.679
with his gun and a friend is getting a glass

1020
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.159
of water. So to me, it's pretty clear that he

1021
00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:18.440
was pretty reckless when it came to guns.

1022
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:22.880
He was twenty five twenty six at this time. This

1023
00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:25.199
is something I think about all the time because we're old.

1024
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:28.960
We're old old, and you change so much between the

1025
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.719
time that you're in your twenties, you know, really make

1026
00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:35.719
a lot of bad, rash decisions. Yeah, your thirties, you're

1027
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:37.360
still a little dumb, you know. By the time you

1028
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.800
get to your forties and beyond, I feel like, you know,

1029
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:44.039
you learn how to think before responding. And when we

1030
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.360
tell these stories, I think it's really important to remember.

1031
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:49.840
If you know, Oscar is a young man in his twenties.

1032
00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:53.440
He has this celebrity status and he's been through some

1033
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:56.280
really hard things, but he still has this a sense

1034
00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:58.920
of entitlement that bad things aren't going to happen to him,

1035
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:01.639
and you know, the same roles don't apply to him, right,

1036
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:03.679
So I think it's just really important to remember that.

1037
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:05.880
Yeah, I think that's really true. And I think also

1038
00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:08.920
just in South Africa, you know, there was a there

1039
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.559
was a culture of you know, carrying guns with you

1040
00:55:11.599 --> 00:55:15.000
everywhere because of this fear of crime and things like that.

1041
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.280
So I think just the combination of those things. Being

1042
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:21.239
a reckless, you know, twenty something guy who's dumb and

1043
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:24.840
makes dumb decisions, also being in this environment, also his upbringing,

1044
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:28.119
all these things combined just to make a really you know, bad,

1045
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.360
bad recipe for something bad to happen eventually.

1046
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:34.960
I had a history professor once that talked about young men,

1047
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:37.639
and I've never forgotten what he when he talked about

1048
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:42.239
revolutions and wars and those things. Other times are started by,

1049
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:46.119
you know, young angry men in their twenties. You know,

1050
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:48.360
that's the angriest person in the world, is you know,

1051
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:49.719
a young man in his twenties?

1052
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.360
True? Last thing I want to ask you about. Pretty

1053
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.960
much everyone knows something about this case already. It's obviously

1054
00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:58.480
a famous case, even if you didn't follow it closely.

1055
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:01.239
But based on what you've learned through these first two

1056
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.199
parts of the episode, is there anything that has stood

1057
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.119
out to you that surprised you that you didn't know about,

1058
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:09.360
or that has kind of changed the way you're thinking

1059
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:10.119
about this case.

1060
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.719
I think you did a good job highlighting the intrinsic

1061
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:18.119
fear that Oscar has because of his disability, but also

1062
00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:22.719
just you know, being raised in South Africa, there was

1063
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:26.920
a certain sense of you know, vulnerability and fear that

1064
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:28.559
he had instilled in him.

1065
00:56:28.719 --> 00:56:31.280
Yeah, and I'm trying, I'm trying hard not to make

1066
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:34.159
excuses for him or make it sound like I'm making excuses,

1067
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:37.239
But I think it really is important to to understand

1068
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.960
the whole context of his upbringing and his disability and

1069
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:42.039
the country he lived in.

1070
00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:44.880
Something that I can't get beyond. And I don't want

1071
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:46.519
to put the curt before the horse before we get

1072
00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.199
to the trial. But if you heard a noise in

1073
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:52.360
the middle of the night, you wouldn't grab We don't

1074
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:55.000
have a gun in our home, but you would turn

1075
00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:57.599
to me and say, honey, did you hear that was there?

1076
00:56:57.760 --> 00:56:59.679
Did you hear a sound? You wouldn't just, you know,

1077
00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.039
jump out of bed right away. You would check with me,

1078
00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:04.719
and you know, you'd put your hand on me or something.

1079
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:07.199
You would make sure I was there. That I don't

1080
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:07.559
you think?

1081
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:08.440
Yeah? Absolutely.

1082
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:10.480
And the fact that it seems like it was a

1083
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:11.960
rash reaction.

1084
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:14.199
Yeah, I think if it happened the way he is

1085
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:17.159
saying it happened, I think he just panicked, like he

1086
00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:19.920
had the moment of panic. Wasn't thinking. But yes, I

1087
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.199
think I would definitely check to make sure you were

1088
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.360
there and before I did anything.

1089
00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:28.000
Now, remind me, he lives in a house in this development.

1090
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.400
It's not like an apartment yeah, I thought I remember

1091
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:35.159
hearing that neighbors recalled them arguing.

1092
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:37.320
We will talk about that in part three.

1093
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:38.880
Gotcha be sure to.

1094
00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:41.079
Come back for Part three, where we will talk about

1095
00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:50.880
the trial and everything that has come after. During one

1096
00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:53.880
of our breaks in recording, I learned that some of

1097
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:57.719
our listeners apparently play a Love Mary Killed drinking game.

1098
00:57:57.880 --> 00:57:58.119
Yeah.

1099
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:00.639
Every time I say something stupid, they drink and they're

1100
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:03.880
so intoxicated by the end. These do not drink and

1101
00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:05.599
drive if you're playing the Love Mary Kill.

1102
00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:08.199
No, don't do that. Our partner in crime, Lisa, send

1103
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.440
us a note and she said that she had in

1104
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:13.079
her Love Mary Killed drinking game. She had to remove

1105
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.400
the prompt by all accounts, because she would be dead

1106
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:18.039
if she drank every time we set.

1107
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:21.000
I think you say that more than I do. Well,

1108
00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:21.519
I don't know.

1109
00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:23.599
I was going to ask you, what do you think

1110
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:26.480
are the things that are most likely to get people

1111
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:29.519
really drunk if they're playing the Love Mary Kill drinking

1112
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:32.519
in like a whole phrase could be anything, a phrase.

1113
00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:35.000
We've talked about this before, but I make fun of

1114
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:37.400
you a lot off air when you're like for sure.

1115
00:58:38.559 --> 00:58:40.559
Every time I say for sure, I'm like oh my god,

1116
00:58:40.599 --> 00:58:41.639
why did I say that again?

1117
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.760
Because you're a valley girl at heart, for sure, I

1118
00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:48.159
say absolutely a lot.

1119
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:52.039
I know we have been told we say horrible a lot,

1120
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:53.119
which I nailed.

1121
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:56.599
That back intentionally. We both give one horrible an episode.

1122
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:59.920
Sometimes sometimes I can't help myself I say it. I

1123
00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:02.440
mean more often. There's just not a lot of words

1124
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:03.719
that work better than horrible.

1125
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:07.840
Rights it's a good word. I was recently listening to

1126
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.639
another podcast and I noticed that they said the word

1127
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:14.000
like a lot, but you know in that way that

1128
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:19.159
you say when you're like yeah, and it was like

1129
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:22.760
hard to listen to. And now that you can, you

1130
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:26.239
can go into a script and you can highlight how

1131
00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:27.880
many times they said it, and I don't know what

1132
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:30.760
it was. It was like four hundred and thirty two times. Yeah,

1133
00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:34.599
Which is a horrible disservice to podcasters that that exists

1134
00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:37.039
for a lot of reasons, because I really do feel

1135
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:40.119
like some podcasters you can just copy and past someone's podcast,

1136
00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:44.199
put it into a chatbot, and say, reproduce another script,

1137
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:46.920
which I'm not sure if anyone. I feel like people

1138
00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:49.360
do that, not us, but I think other people are

1139
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.960
doing that. But anyway, I went into one of our

1140
00:59:53.079 --> 00:59:55.920
scripts and to see how many times we said like

1141
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:59.079
and it was it was a lot more than I expected,

1142
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:03.000
more than one who hosts the podcast would like, that's

1143
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:06.039
for sure. But there's different, you know, ways to say

1144
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:06.360
like that.

1145
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.280
I think I like you. That's okay to say that too.

1146
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:11.199
But I like you just the way you are. But

1147
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:13.719
we do say it more than you would probably think.

1148
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.119
I try hard not to do the o's and ums,

1149
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:19.679
and they come through I say wow a lot. Yeah,

1150
01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:22.239
they don't know what to say, and it's just I'm.

1151
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.280
Going to start saying full body chills.

1152
01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:27.400
Yeah, oh that's me, don't No.

1153
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:30.000
I was just thinking about that because that which pot

1154
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:31.599
that's morbid that they say.

1155
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.679
That talking calling out on it. It's a very very

1156
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:37.199
very popular podcast.

1157
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:39.280
No, it's actually good that they have a thing like that.

1158
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:41.360
I feel like we don't really have a you.

1159
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:44.320
Know, for the record, I have maybe gotten full body

1160
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:46.679
chills once, so I'm not sure what they're doing over there.

1161
01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:49.360
But yeah, I mean I get emotional a lot.

1162
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.119
But one thing that people might have on their drinking

1163
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:55.079
game that I think we don't actually say is talking

1164
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:57.719
about someone lighting up a room. Because I think that

1165
01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:00.760
even that is such a cliche that we really actually

1166
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:03.000
avoid that as well. I think if you listen to

1167
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:06.239
maybe I don't know, Dateline or other podcasts, you might

1168
01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:07.039
hear that one a lot.

1169
01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:09.880
M that's true. I do try to avoid that. But

1170
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.480
Lisa's comment made me laugh. It was very funny, and

1171
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:18.599
we are all for making fun of us, absolutely for sure. Absolutely.

1172
01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:23.639
So the funniest thing happened the other day and I

1173
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:26.119
didn't get a picture, and I'm so mad because I

1174
01:01:26.119 --> 01:01:28.440
had my camera at the ready and you walked out

1175
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.719
of the room. It was the Bears were playing and

1176
01:01:31.880 --> 01:01:34.880
you I have a Bear sweatshirt. Oh yeah, foot on

1177
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:38.039
my Bears sweatshirt is a little, a little funny joke,

1178
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:40.599
and I'm so mad that I don't have proof of that.

1179
01:01:40.760 --> 01:01:43.599
So it's you to never ever or deny that that

1180
01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:45.079
you had on a Bear switch.

1181
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:47.119
I can't confirm or deny it, but what I can

1182
01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:49.960
say is it will probably never happen again. So you

1183
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:50.559
missed your.

1184
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:53.519
Super Bowl and they're playing against.

1185
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:55.320
I don't want to be a pessimist, but I don't

1186
01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:56.920
think the Bears are going to make the super Bowl,

1187
01:01:57.119 --> 01:01:58.840
and I really don't care, and actually I can't talk

1188
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:01.639
about football anymore because you said I can't talk for

1189
01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:02.440
fifteen seconds.

1190
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:06.400
Second, Well, we haven't signed the contract twenty twenty six.

1191
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:09.119
What would you put in your end of the contract.

1192
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:11.599
Well, I also fully concur with you on the no

1193
01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:15.199
vegetables claws for the snacks, so we're on the same

1194
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:18.079
page on that one. No problem there. I would like

1195
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:21.840
a shoulder and neck massage before and after each.

1196
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:25.480
Recording, standing right behind you. So maybe Keith is made

1197
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:26.199
of cardboard.

1198
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:29.320
He is unable to do that, So that would really help,

1199
01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:31.760
you know, get rid of the tension in my neck

1200
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:34.760
and shoulders sitting in these chairs for a long time.

1201
01:02:35.159 --> 01:02:37.480
Well, I really didn't expect you to come with any demands,

1202
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:39.880
so I need to work.

1203
01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:42.159
On my demands right. Thank you all so much for

1204
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:44.320
hanging out with us today. If you'd like to listen

1205
01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:47.440
to part three of this episode now, join us on

1206
01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:50.679
Patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill. We have one

1207
01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:53.400
tier five dollars a month, and you get early access

1208
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:57.320
to multi part episodes along with a monthly bonus episode.

1209
01:02:57.559 --> 01:03:00.639
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media,

1210
01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:03.840
or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail

1211
01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:07.360
dot com, and also look for us on YouTube, the

1212
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:12.159
little channel that could. Until next time, don't kill your

1213
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:13.400
wife and don't kill your husband.

1214
01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:00.239
Yah