Sandy Murphy and Ted Binion - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary kill. Hey, Tina, be rich. How are you today? Well? Tiny bit under the weather, but I'm going to be okay. I will persevere. I know you will. How are you? I'm doing really good today. You're looking good. You got a hair I got. A fresh haircut. I'm wearing my new Patagonia hoodie that you got me yesterday. Spring is around the corner. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good.

0:47 I'm so happy to hear that. And I'm going to Berlin in a couple of days for my company. You're super excited you get to leave me from. I'm not excited about that, but I am excited because my company is having all everybody there, which is quite a few people to Berlin, and they were gonna make us have roommates. Yeah that's horrible, but I know, I just like don't like that whole idea. But my roommate, Fernando, really one of my favorite people at work. He had to cancel, so he had something come up at the last minute. He can't make it. So I'm like, I think I'm gonna get my own room. You sound really giddy about this, and I hope Fernando is listening. Well, I have mixed feelings because I do Fernando is great and I was looking forward to.

1:27 You mention that he's a nice guy all the time. It's a great guy. But I am looking forward to having my own room. Oh yeah, that's not fair to have someone try to fly internationally and then have to share a room. Yeah, when your sleep is all messed up. And yeah, yes, I'm also excited because today we get to try the rest of the snacks that our listener, Samantha sent us from the UK. Yeah, that is super exciting. Ran kids were home last night and we tried the first set of snacks with them and they all really enjoyed them too. They did all right, So I've got We've got like five snacks left. She sent us so much, it's so nice. So we're going to try three different things here. I've got this one I'm not excited about. This is Manard's licorice all sorts.

2:08 I am not either love it or you hate it. Well, How do you don't like liquorice either. Do you? Well, it depends on the flavor. Is it black licorice? I think so, Yeah, I'm not a big fan of it. And then we've got Tesco Crispy coated peanuts barbecue flavor, which sounds good. And then more Jafa cakes. These are raspberry flavs. Okay, sounds good. Well what did you think of round three of our UK Snack Extravaganza. Well, you have to work on your pairings because licorice and barbecued peanuts. And raspberry Jaffa cakes. Yeah, those three things don't taste really good together go well together. The licorice was interesting. We don't really neither of us love black licorice. They were cute, but I didn't really love it. The peanuts are delicious, I would I would buy.

3:00 Those, yeah, for sure. And the jaffa cakes, I like the raspberry better than the original flavor we tried yesterday. They were really good. Yeah, I like those lots. Texture is really fun with those. Yeah, they're kind of pillowy. Yeah, sort of. Yeah. You articulated exactly how I felt about the sax today as well. So I wanted to like the licorice. I tried, Yeah, but yeah, just doesn't. Do it for me. It's so weird how you either love it or you hate it? Yeah? Will you bring us snacks back from Germany? You know, I will try, But this trip is going to be like our whole company is there and they have us like booked wall to wall. But I'll at least be in the airport, so I'll find something in the airport. It's up on a lot of times on these trips, you don't have time to explore.

3:42 This one especially. Yeah. Should we get back to the case of Ted Binyon. Yes? Would you like to give us a recap of part one? Yes, I've prepared a lovely summary right here. Excellent Ted Binyon, part of Las Vegas famous Binyon family, died in September nineteen ninety eight of an apparent heroin overdose. He'd struggled for quite a bit with that heroin addiction right. The initial conclusion by the police was that it was either suicide or an accidental overdose. However, Ted's girlfriend, Sandy Murphy, was having an affair with Ted's good friend Rick Tavish. The two had multiple motives to kill Ted Sandy would inherit money and property from Ted's will, and supposedly she was about to be taken out of the will. If I recall, the home was valued at two million dollars a day.

4:28 It's worth about two point two million dollars. She was also going to get three hundred thousand dollars in cash and whatever luxurious furnishings were in the. Home, right and cash and silver whatever he kept in the home. Rick had access to the twenty four tons of silver that Ted had buried in the desert and was caught a day and a half after Ted's death digging it up. He claimed he was doing it at Ted's behest to keep his siblings out of it. What a great guy, all right. When we left off, Rick had been arrested for grand theft after digging up the silver, and Sandy was busy documenting all of the possessions in Ted's house that she felt she was entitled to. And didn't she say that some things had been removed, But you weren't sure if she had removed them or Yeah.

5:14 She claimed that things were missing like that there was a safe that was empty, but there's just no way to know if she took that stuff, or if the family took that stuff or who did so. But it was just the thing about like she made this video where she walked through the house documenting everything, and it was the day after Ted's death, where like the day before she was inconsolable, crying, sobbing, they had to take her to the hospital. And then the next day she's like, that's mine, that's mine. You know, this is so she's going through a very businesslike and it was just a really gross Yeah, it was really shocking kind of to see that change that quickly. So do you think Rick and Sandy you're going to live happily every afternoon? Well, I guess we'll find out soon. While the police quickly decided that Ted had died of a drug overdose, his sister, Becky Binyon Bainen and his brother Jack weren't so sure. Becky hadn't liked or trusted Sandy from the beginning.

6:07 She made no secret of her view that Sandy had been after Ted's money from the start. Becky claimed that she had spoken with Ted several times in the preceding weeks and that Ted was done with Sandy. She believed that Ted was either about to dump Sandy or had already dumped her, and that she and Rick killed him before he was able to sign his updated will. She pushed for the police to treat Ted's death as a homicide. The day after Ted died, Becky called up reporter Jeff German, who wrote an article quoting Becky saying that Ted and Sandy had been fighting all week. She didn't directly accuse Sandy of murder, but the implication was pretty clear. When the police showed no signs of treating Ted's death as a homicide, Becky hired a private investigator, a guy who was a former homicide cop with the Vegas PD. He still had relationships within the police department, and they more or less stepped aside and let him take over the investigation.

7:00 This was unheard of now. The whispers around town were that the investigation was bought and paid for by the Binyan family, which was essentially true. The autopsy and toxicology results lent credence to the theory that Ted was murdered. While the medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was an overdose of heroin and xanax. Due to the lethal levels of the drugs, in his bloodstream. There were signs that something nefarious had happened. First, Binyon's stomach was empty except for forty milliliters of gray brown fluid testing identified it as a mixture of heroin and xanax. This was suspicious for two reasons. First, as we talked about in Part one, Ted used heroin by inhaling the smoke or chasing the dragon as it's known. He never ingested it by eating or drinking it in any way. That would be a really strange way, not to mention a wasteful way of getting high off of heroin. No heroin was found in his lungs. Second, if he had swallowed ninety xanax tablets, which was that was the amount that he had left, he had gotten one hundred and twenty. He gave thirty of them to his drug dealer as partial payment for the heroin, and the bottle was found empty.

8:10 But if he had swallowed ninety xanax tablets, there would likely be particles of undigested xanax in his stomach, but there was none. So the question is how did this mix of liquefied heroin and xanax get into his digestive tract plus. With all the drugs that Binyon must have ingested, it seemed odd that his stomach was nearly empty aside from the forty milliliters of fluid. The medical examiner concluded that Binyon must have vomited at some point before his death, but no vomit was discovered on or around his body. The area around his nose and mouth were discolored, leading investigators to believe that Binyon's face had been vigorously wiped clean after his death. Crime scene investigators noted a quote number of dried drops in the carpeting of apparent gastric content like fluid. Drops were arranged in a line stopping in the area where the body was found. So basically what they're saying there is it almost seemed like if someone had wiped up vomit or something from his face and walked away, that it was like a rag was dripping as leading away from the body. Additionally, lividity, which is the settling of blood in the body due to gravity after death, had been noted on Binyon's right side while he was found lying flat on his back. That, along with bruises found on his right side and back, along with small injuries to his wrists, left knee, and chest all suggested to investigators that his body had been moved after death. Sandy did claim to have performed CPR

9:41 on him, so that could possibly account for him lying on his back, even if he had died while lying on his side. The other thing that raised suspicion was Binyon's apparent time of death. So remember that paramedics who had arrived on the scene shortly after four pm noted that rigor mortis had set in on Binyon's jaw. Or mortis generally begins in the face around two hours or more after death. That, along with the lividity, led investigators to believe the time of death had to have been two PM at the absolute latest. Eventually, the estimate of the time of death would be most probably between nine am and noon. So that's troubling because if you recall, the gardener saw Sandy's car parked beside the house when he arrived at nine thirty am, and then he also saw it when he left at one thirty pm. We also know that Sandy went to the Binyon gaming office around two thirty pm, so that would mean that she was likely home at the time when Ted died. Now, it is a big house and it's certainly possible that she was doing her own thing while Ted was overdosing in the den, But the timing doesn't look good for Sandy.

10:48 While the initial manner of death ruling by the Clark County Medical Examiner was undetermined, six months after Ted's death, this was changed. It was now being considered a homicide. In addition to the growing evidence pointing to homicide, Sandy's behavior raised suspicions as well. First, there was a video that she had her lawyer's shoe while she walked around the house documenting Ted's possessions. We've already mentioned how it didn't look great her being inconsolable one day and the next day claiming her possessions in a very businesslike way, But it wasn't just that. In one part of the video, Sandy is walking through the kitchen and she can be seen surreptitiously scooping up a wineglass from the counter and slipping it into her purse.

11:32 Yeah, doesn't seem suspicious at all. Maybe, as Sandy later claimed, she was embarrassed because she had been drinking and didn't want anyone to know. But with the autopsy evidence of heroin and xanax and Ted's stomach, and the thought that there were no particles of undigested heroine, it might make one wonder whether Sandy or Rick ground up the drugs and somehow forced Ted to drink the fatal concoction from a wineglass. So I don't I think you would force someone to drink something out of a white like you would pick something that was unbreakable. Or like a turkey baster or something like that. Maybe, but what turkey baster? Yeah? There was also Sandy's overwhelming grief. On the day that Ted died. She was hyperventilating and so inconsolable that she had to be taken to the hospital. Was it a bit over the top?

12:21 Maybe? Some of the nurses that treated her claim she was literally saying boooo boo hoo. They felt that her emotion was fake. During her interview with police as well, she was sobbing so hard that she could hardly answer their questions. We played a little clip from that in part one, and it was just it did make you wonder, like, is she does she just want to avoid answering questions here? So she's just being incoherent and you know, acting so upset. It sounds to me, it sounded a little a little much. And it is pretty rare to go to the hospital because you know, you're overwhelmed by grief. Ted's siblings filed a claim and probate court part to challenge what Sandy was entitled to under the terms of his will, but more importantly, to get her under oath. However, Sandy had hired lawyer Oscar Goodman, who had represented Ted and also many of Vegas's most notorious mobsters. Goodman wasn't going to play games with the binions. He told Sandy to plead the fifth, which she did over two hundred times. Rick Tavish was also subpoenaed. He pled the fifth ninety eight times.

13:29 That's a lot of that's a lot of fifths. That is. In the end, the probate court ruled that Sandy was entitled to what was stipulated in the will prior to the changes. Ted allegedly requested the day before his death three hundred thousand dollars in cash, the house and everything in the house. Ted also had a one million dollar life insurance policy with Sandy named as the beneficiary, but he hadn't signed the policy, so it was deemed invalid. All in all, Sandy's share of Ted's inheritance was relatively small, seeing as his total net worth was probably around sixty million dollars. Wow, his daughter ended up inheriting most of that. Sandy had bigger things to worry about than how much she was going to get from Ted's estate. The police were closing in on her, and Rick Tabish tried to clear his name by hiring a private polygraph examiner who shared the results of his testing. Predictably, the results showed that Tabish answered no to the question of whether he had participated in the death of Ted Binion in any way, and that his answer was not deceptive.

14:34 Do you think in the history of private polygraph examinations anyone has ever taken a private polygraph and come back and the police are like, oh, okay, you're good. Maybe it's good to practice your polygraph test though, to kind of like find out, not to share it with the police, but just to have someone come in just to see what your results might be. Yeah, it's okod before you are tested by the police. Yeah, And really, I think most people that take a private polygraph. In this type of situation, they're doing it for public opinion more than to try to get the police to clear them. Despite that, in June nineteen ninety nine, nine months after Ted's death, Sandy and Rick were arrested while grocery shopping together. They were both charged with murder, conspiracy, and grand theft.

15:17 While Sandy was sitting in jail awaiting trial, she found a benefactor, or should we say that a benefactor found her. Sandy couldn't afford a good defense. Her money from Ted's estate was tied up in appeals by the Binyon family, not to mention the fact that if you're found guilty of murdering someone, you're not going to get the money. A wealthy Irish mining executive named Bill Fuller heard about Sandy's story. He had an instinct that Sandy couldn't have committed the crimes she was accused of. He went to the jail and met with Sandy, leaving that meeting convinced that she had been wrongly arrested, and he posted three hundred thousand dollars to bail her out. I'm going to back you up just for a second here. You said that Sandy would not inherit any money, correct, So if you kill someone, you don't get to you don't get your inheritance, right.

16:06 And my understanding is that most states it's a state by state thing, but most states have a law in place. I think it's called the slayer law. I think it is called the slayer rule. Yes, full disclosure. We just had to google that because we were curious. Yes, but no, she would not be able to inherit his money if she was found guilty of murder. And that makes sense. It's just you know, a will is a legal binding, legal document, right. We did find that there are two states that don't have that rule, in Massachusetts in New Hampshire. Yes, So, just in the interest of full disclosure, those are the two states. So New Hampshire is the live for your die state. Is there really like that libertarian of a state?

16:47 As far as I know, I don't know. I haven't spent a lot of time there, but I think I think it is. That's really interesting. So we were talking about this wealthy executive, Bill Fuller, who bailed Sandy out of jail. Not only that he hired attorneys for her and put her up at a posh apartment, leased her a new Mercedes, paid for her meals at gourmet restaurants while she was on house arrest awaiting trial. Why is everyone buying sandy Mercedes? I don't know. That's one of the aspects of this case that kind of bothers me. Rumors swirled that Sandy was having an affair with the much older Fuller, and even that he'd asked her to marry him, but he claimed he was just a good samaritan who believed in her innocence. He was media shy, and he never spoke in more detail about the nature of his relationship with Sandy Murphy. We'll be back after a break.

17:42 Jerry's selection in the trial of Sandy Murphy and Rick Tabish began in March two thousand and the Clark County courtroom opening statements began a few days later, just as the thirty first annual Binion's World Series of Poker was getting underway at the Horseshoe. How much does it cost to enter the World's Series of Poker? Do you know, Well, it depends. There's like a lot of different events in the World Series of Poker. The main event, I believe it's a ten thousand dollars entry fee. Okay. The prosecution called several witnesses that testify to Ted Binyon's state of mind in the days before his death, making it clear that he was looking to the future. He had plans, he was optimistic and didn't seem suicidal. According to his lawyer, James Brown, those plans didn't involve Sandy Murphy. Brown testified about the phone call from Ted the day before he died.

18:30 He said, he said, take Sandy out of will if she doesn't kill me tonight. If I'm dead, you'll know what happened. By the time Brown made the change to Ted's will the next day, it was too late. Ted never got the chance to sign his updated will. They also had some witnesses who provided damaging testimony against both Sandy and Rick. A week before Ted's death, Sandy went to the Nieman Marcus Salon with a friend to get a manicure and pedicure. Apparently was in a talkative mood that day. For manicurist Deanna Perry testified that Sandy could apparently see Ted's future. Did miss Murphy make any comments about the Ted Binyon's future.

19:15 It wasn't going to be around. What did she say, can tell he was going to die of a drug overdose? Did she tell you when he was going to die of a drug overdose within three weeks? Did she tell you what type of drug overdose that he was going to experience within three weeks? Caron not suspicious. She went on to say that Sandy was bragging about how much money she would inherit and the fact that her lover, Richard knew the combinations of all her husband's saves. Deanna testified that Sandy talked about this all in a joky way, but as soon as she saw the news about Ted Binyon's death, she called the Las Vegas Police Department. Ted's daughter, Bonnie, now nineteen, testify about her rocky relationship with Sandy Murphy, including one incident in June nineteen ninety eight when she came home from boarding school for a visit.

20:09 My father came out and got in the car, and Miss Murphy came outside, and she was screaming and yelling at him and me, and that she didn't want me on her property and that she would call the police if I didn't leave. Did she. Make a comment about you a derogport comment, Yeah, she did, but what did. She call him? She called me a bitch. Kurt Gratzer, who had known Rick Tabish growing up in Montana, then later went to work for Tabash at one of his businesses, He testified about Rick Tabash's plans for Ted.

20:53 He said that one day Tabish asked him for his help solving a problem. He told me that they're here. Was a former casino owner in Las Vegas that he had some business arrangements with that was backing out on him and oweding some money. I wasn't paying it, and he wanted to utilize my services to help him killing this man. He told Gratzer that the job he had done for this former casino owner was transporting and burying tons of silver for him, and that after his death, Rick was going to dig it up. Rick had a few different ideas on how Gratzer could kill Ted Binion. First, he said that he could introduce Gratzer to Ted and that Ted would be interested in meeting him because of his Army Rangers background. Ted would want to show Gratzer the guns that he kept in his house, which were generally kept loaded, and Gratzer could use one of them to shoot Ted in his head. He also had an idea about having a helicopter dropped Gratzer off at Ted's ranch out in the country, where he could shoot head through the window.

22:01 The elaborate planning. Yeah, the third idea sounded much like the way Ted ultimately died. Getting this man to consume a combination, a lethal combination of heroin, a drug I believe is xanax, and another anti anxiety medication that this man would use to calm himself down from the heroin, Rick said, from withdrawal from the Heroin. Their discussion about how to make Ted ingest these there. Was discussion about it, and I really didn't know how to go about that. There's a possibly I think I mentioned shoving it down his throat with a stick, possible tube type situation, but I'm not I'm not sure about that, and I was I was just using my imagination. I don't have any experience with this type of thing.

22:57 Last part, actually, you know, just imagined it. I have no experience here. But how would they know that Ted would have Xanax? Well, that's a good question. I'm not really sure. The only thing I can speculate is that I believe he had taken Xanax before when he was trying to get off heroin. But it does. Seem and I guess you can get zan x pretty easily. Yeah, but it is kind of a coincidental though, that he would say that and then Ted would just happen to go get a prescription for. Xanax the day well spars of that quantity. Yeah, it was like one hundred and twenty right. Another witness, a business associate of Rick Tavish named Jason Fraser, testified that Rick had asked him to help establish an alibi for the morning of September seventeenth. Prosecutors estimated Ted's time of death to be between nine am and noon that day.

23:44 Fraser said that Tabash asked him to persuade a couple of employees at All Star Ready Mix, a concrete company in North Las Vegas that Tavish sometimes did business with, to falsely claim Tavish was there that morning from seven am till about eleven Prosecutors introduced a handwritten note from Tabish to Fraser offering to pay an attorney to help one of the men solve some unrelated legal troubles if the men would place Tabish at All store of the morning of Ted's death, and the note Tabish wrote, quote, my life is on the line and we need to fight fire with fire. Key did. The prosecution's case was explaining to the jury how Ted Binyon could have been forced to ingest a lethal combination of heroin and xanax instead of overdosing accidentally or by suicide. For that, they brought in famed pathologist doctor Michael Bodden, former Chief Medical Examiner for New York City and host of the HBO show Autoxy. He is everywhere is atween him and Cyril wacked.

24:49 Well, that's funny, you should mention wacked. Oh really. Although the Clark County Medical Examiner had ruled the cause of Ted's death to be an overdose, Boden said that actually it wasn't a no overdose. It was suffocation, he said, using a method called Burking b U Rking. I had never heard of this before. Burking is named after William Burke, who killed at least sixteen people in Scotland in the eighteen hundreds. Scotland was a center of anatomical studies at that time, which led to a shortage of cadavers for dissection. Burke and a partner killed people and then sold them to an anatomy lecturer for the generous sum of seven pounds or about one thousand dollars today. That's horrible.

25:33 It's very horrible. To make it appear that his victims died of natural causes, Burke would hold their nose and mouthshot, while his partner in crime would sit on the victim's chest to starve their lungs of air. Police eventually became suspicious, but because there was no visible injuries to the victims, they couldn't prove that they had been murdered. It was only after Burke's partner turned on him in exchange for immunity that he was convicted. Burke was hanged for his crimes, his corpse dissected for science, and his skeleton displayed at the Anatomical Museum of Edinburgh Medical School, where it remains to this day. So this method of killing someone became known as burking.

26:13 It's not very common. I'll just say because I was like looking this up trying to learn more about it. If you google burking, a lot of the results that come up will be for burking or expensive air Ma's burkein handbags. Doctor Bottom believed that Ted had been restrained, evidenced by marks on his wrists that could have been from handcuffs, then forced to swallow a liquefied concoction of heroin and xanax, then manually suffocated. Boden pointed to some of the autopsy findings to support his theory. First, Binion had patchieal hemorrhages and the lower part of his eyes, something that happens when capillaries have ruptured under pressure. Second, there was significant bruising around Ted's mouth that could have been caused by someone forcefully squeezing his nose and mouth shut. Finally, Boden pointed to photos of small circular marks on Binyon's upper chest. These, Boden claimed, were the imprints of Binyon's sure buttons, caused by someone sitting on his chest and pressing the buttons into his skin. Boden spent eight hours on the stand patiently explaining his findings to the jury.

27:20 The defense called its own star pathologist who you just mentioned, Doctor Cyril Weckt, president of both the American Academy of Forensic Sciences and the American College of Legal Medicine. Weckt refuted Boden's findings, calling them outlandish and incorrect. He said that the redness around Binyon's mouth and nose could have been the result of resuscitation attempts, or even just a bad day's shaving, and the marks on his chest could also have been caused by the CPR that Sandy claimed to have performed after finding him. Weckt said that he believed the manner of death was most likely suicide by drug overdose. Once again, it's amazing how you can find two very well respected experts to say two completely different things.

28:03 But an in weect or like they're both ancient and they've both done like these, you know, very high profile cases. It is really interesting. They probably hate each other. Probably. Finally, after six long weeks and testimony from one hundred and fifteen witnesses, the case went to the jury. The jury deliberated for eight long days before finally coming back with their verdict. As the jurors entered the courtroom, four of them were wearing sunglasses. Sandy and Rick's legal team couldn't help but wonder whether this was some sort of statement in response to their opening arguments when they admonished the jury to be so sure of their verdict that they could look their clients in the eye when it was all said and done. Sandy later said she knew when she saw the sunglasses that it was bad news.

28:50 That is interesting, I have it really is. I'm surprised that judge let that fly. I'm surprised too. And it makes you wonder, Like, they deliberate for eight days, which is that's a long time for a jury to deliberate, So it makes you wonder if those four people, like if they didn't agree with the verdict and they were doing that as some sort of protest or something like that. Do you know if any time did they go to the judge and say, oh, we can't come to it. I didn't. I did not see anything in my research that they did that. But it's certainly possible that they did. With six weeks of testimony, that's a lot of testimony. Through too, Yeah, a ton of testimony. But it was bad news, as Sandy predicted. The jury found both Sandy and Rick guilty of first degree murder and conspiring to steal more than seven million dollars worth of silver from Binyon's vacant lot in Perump. Several people made impact statements prior to the jury sentencing the pair. Ted's daughter, Bonnie, shared stories of her dad, how he took care of her when she was sick, how he taught her to play poker and other games, how he taught her how to fish. While he wasn't perfect, she said he was a good dad who loved her, making sure she got a hug and a kiss every morning when she left for school, and how every night he would cite a line from a poem by Edgar Allan Poe that he had memorized as a child.

30:05 There was a poem calling Anna Belly that he memorized when he was young, and every night before I would go to bed, when he tucked me in, he just he either said he knew it by heart, and he neither decided to make for there was a line it said, Oh, you would always tell me I love you so much that it makes the angels in heaven jealous. Most parents would read a doctor. But I think that's I think it kind of goes to Ted's personality, right. He was he was a unique guy. But yeah, obviously it meant something to her, very touching.

30:47 Either Sandy nor Rick testified in their own defense, but they both spoke to plead with the jury for mercy and sentencing. Here's the last part of Sandy's statement. I loved with. All my heart, and I know he loves me just as much. You have may taken. He may have. Taken away my freedom, But no matter what goes on in these proceedings or what anybody ever says about us, you can never take away the love we had for each other. I am so sad for all my hopes and dreams for the family I will never have, the wedding that will never. Be, and my children that will never come.

31:27 Last night, I lay in bed thinking of what I wanted to say here today, and there was one thing that stuck. Out of my mind. There was something that I need to do for me. I want to say that I'm sorry to the Biggin family, but most of all, I'm sorry to Monnie, and I'm sorry for the day I walked out that door on September seventeenth and left him Marri Blones. I'm sorry to Teddy. For not being there when he needed me the most. And I'm sorry. I am also sorry for making you listen to that.

32:10 I know I'm a softy, but that sounded authentically sad to me. I mean, she was definitely having real emotion there, but it just felt so over the top to me. And the thing that really bugged me about the statement is not so much r emotion, but it's that it was all about her, like, I'm so sad for my hopes and dreams, for my the fact that I'm not going to have a way. Yeah, she was crying for herself. Yeah. Rick, in his statement, was more composed. He got up and started basically telling his life story, all the mistakes that he had made and learned from along the way. He went on for so long that the judge finally took a break and he told Rick to get on with it. Here's the end of Rick's statement. Please give me my life all I ask because I'd like to get out of prison. It's twenty years from now, so that I can at least see my children when they're married, try to get back and involved in society and get started again. And hopefully my mother and my father are still alive in my I can do something with my brothers. I don't know where else to go, Folks.

33:10 I could talk for two days, but I'm my heart's out to everybody involved, and that's all I got to say. Thank you, and please consider me and missus Murphy and and your decisions. Thank you. I thought it was funny. I could go on all day, and I listened to a lot of his I listened to all of this statement. But it was funny because the judge, like, he went on for a half an hour and he was just kind of rambling, and the judge was finally like, like, buddy, you know, we don't I don't want to cut you off, but you really need to kind of wrap that. Yeah. Yeah. They were both sentenced to life in prison, with the possibility of parole starting after twenty years for the murder, plus additional time for burglary and other offenses. That would mean that Sandy would be in prison until at least age forty eight and Tavish until his late fifties.

33:59 So is Sandy only like twenty eight. Yeah, oh okay, but that is not the end of Sandy Murphy and Rick Tavish's story. Sandy immediately started working on her appeal, and she wasn't playing around. She drafted a thirty page document outlining all of the reasons why she believed she was wrongfully convicted. She wanted to work with the best in the business, so she sent her thirty page letter off to Alan Dershowitz, a high profile attorney who seemed to love taking up on unpopular causes like OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Mike Tyson, and Leona Helmsley, among others. So we've got all the big wigs here. We've got Michael Boden, we've got Cyril Weckt, and now we've got Alan Dershowitz. Dershowitz read her letter and was impressed, He said, quote, she wrote me a thirty page letter that was so compelling, so passionate, and so persuasive that although I get hundreds of letters every month from inmates, I responded to it. She practically wrote a brief.

34:54 I hadn't googled a picture of Sandy Murphy, but Alan Dershowitz's response made me want to see what she looked like. And she is a very attractive woman. You think that Dershowitz took her case based on her appearance, not her thirty page brief. Yes, okay, maybe. We'll seemed like a lot of men found her alluring. Yes, for sure, of course, Dershowitz's services weren't going to be cheap, but fortunately for Sandy she had her benefactor, another one of these men that found her alluring, Bill Fuller, there to pick up the tab As Dershowitz went to work, Sandy was getting in trouble in prison. She was sharing a cell with two other high profile inmates, Margaret Rudine, convicted of the December nineteen ninety four murder of her husband Las Vegas real estate magnate Ronald Rudine, and Jessica Williams, a topless dancer who plowed into sixteenagers collecting trash by the freeway while under the influence of marijuana and ecstasy, killing them all. Rudine complained that Sandy Murphy was carrying on a relationship with Williams in the cell in exchange for money and contraband. The women were given new cellmates to address the situation. It took some time, but Dershowitz's appeal made its way to the Nevada Supreme Court in two thousand and three. The court ruled in favor of Murphy and Tabish, agreeing that they did not get a fair trial. There were a couple of reasons for this. First, the trial included a charge against Rick extortion with a deadly weapon, which was completely unrelated to the Ted Binyon murder.

36:25 We didn't talk about it when we went through the first trial because frankly, it was completely unrelated. The prosecution claimed that they included it to help establish a motive for Tabish, but the High Court wasn't buying it. They said that including the extortion case was extremely prejudicial, especially towards Sandy Murphy, who had nothing to do with it. Second, when Ted's lawyer James Brown talked about the phone call where Ted supposedly said, quote, take Sandy out of the will if she doesn't kill me tonight. If I'm dead, you'll know what happened. That should not have been allowed because it was hearsay. The state quickly announced they would retry Murphy and Tabish. In the meantime, Sandy was able to bail out of jail thanks to more help from Bill Fuller. We'll be back after a break. During our break, we sampled the last of our UK snacks from our friend Samantha. We had some Galaxy chocolate chunk cookies and some Maynards wine gums which were kind of like more like gummy traditional kind of gummy bear type.

37:33 Yeah, they were really yummy. I really liked the texture. They were like really chewy. Those were really good. And the chocolate chip cookies some of the best packaged chocolate chip cookies I've ever had. Yeah, I thought they were both great. So once again, Samantha, thank you so much for sending all of that. That was so nice of you. We really appreciate it. We really do. Thank you so much. The road to the second trial was a bit bumpy for Sandy Murphy's legal team. While Alan Dershowitz handled her appeal, he brought on a new, high profile attorney to handle the retrial, Dick de Garin. You remember Dick de Garan. Of course, I remember Dick de Garon. You remember him from defending David Temple when he was accused of killing his wife Belinda. But to Garan got fed up with what he called non lawyer interference by other people who were advising Murphy. He was replaced by Herb Sachs, who also quit for the same reason. It's unclear exactly who was doing the non lawyer interference. Perhaps it was Bill Fuller, who was supposed to be footing the bill, but according to Sachs, Fuller wasn't paying him as promised. Sachs said, quote, A lawyer has to call the shots, and I learned years ago not to work for free. Sandy ended up with lawyer Michael Christali, who was young but highly capable. Tavish's choice of lawyer was Tony Sarah, who is quite the character. Sarah has long, flowing white hair and had taken a vow of poverty.

38:56 He lived a frugal lifestyle, drove an old, beat up car, and he never owned a cell phone, bank account, or credit card. He refused to pay his taxes during the war in Iraq because of his conviction that the war was wrong. For this, he would serve ten months in federal prison and lose his law license for a year, but all of that took place after the retrial of Sandy and Rick. Sarah was a character, but he was also a brilliant lawyer and a showman in the courtroom. He sounds very interesting he is, and very unlawyerlike. I've got a couple of clips of him later that you'll find very interesting, but you should definitely look up like pictures of him and if there are other videos of him. He's really one of a kind. The second trial started in October two thousand and four. Sandy Murphy was now thirty two and Rick Tavish thirty nine. Their defense teams were much better prepared this time around. After all, they knew exactly what to expect this time. James Brown couldn't testify about his conversation with Binyon the day before his death about taking Sandy out of the will if she didn't kill him first, and one of the key he witnesses from the first trial, Kurt Gratzer, who testified about Tavish asking him to kill Binyon, told a different story this time around. He said that when Tabash talked to him about killing Binyon, it was just two guys joking around, like two kids playing. As he put it, he never thought Tavish was serious, and some of the details he shared at the first trial may have actually been part of a dream that he had and not even discussed with Tavish at all. Can you imagine that, Like,

40:29 I think, yeah, I think that was just a dream. Maybe I don't know if that actually happened or not. The best defense, no, he ended up being treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution in his testimony just ended up leaving the jury confused about what to believe. Baden was again the star witness for the prosecution, but this time the defense was prepared to dispute his burking theory. If you remember, one of the key pieces of evidence for his burking theory were the circular marks on Ted's chest, which he said were the impressions of button being pushed into his skin by someone sitting on his chest. But the defense blew up the photos of those marks and had experts testify that they were either dermatitis or carcinoma, in other words, skin cancer. Oh in all, the defense had nine medical experts who ridiculed Boden's borking theory, saying that it was preposterous. Lawyer Tony Sarah ripped into Boden because he never examined Ted's body, and he never examined the shirt that Ted was wearing. All of his conclusions were based on looking at photos. Here's a little bit of their fiery exchange.

41:35 It would have been helpful if you could have had the shirt that was on deceit. Will you agree it would have been helpful? But the photographs are very useful in themselves. So you want to you'd like the shirt, you'd like to look at the buttons. You like the measured the. Buttons, wouldn't you? Yes, Okay, this is the point points obvious. The two levels of fabric in between the button and the chest. There's no way there's going to be an imprint in the manner that you have interpreted. Isn't that a fact, sir?

42:16 Well, I don't accept what your premise is. The button has to be in some way against the skin, and if it's twisted over. I could take this button and just twist it against my skin and make it a very nice mark, which I just did. Yes, But the button, according to evidence, was buttoned. Well, you're telling me the evidence. I didn't see any record of that, and maybe somebody testified to that. But my opinion is that one button was buttoned, the others weren't button No, sure. The two top buttons were buttoned. Not in the picture. I don't believed the button. Yeah, I don't know what he did or didn't, but I think that there was no record of that. But at least when I looked over the record for.

43:04 Your theory to prevail, sir. Isn't it just as you just said, that button got to be up against your skin? Well, it could be that it's not just what you said. If the button isn't against the skin, your fantasy theory goes out the window, doesn't it. Your theory goes out the window, doesn't it. No, that was quite the exchange. You could tell that Boden was getting on the defensive there. He couldn't really respond effectively. Well, he doesn't like to admit he's wrong, right, And that's the problem of expert witnesses, right, They can't really back down because then their testimony is garbage. Yeah. I think that like this whole theory that Boden had. It may have been true that he died of suffocation, but the whole thing with the buttons was just it just wasn't well thought out, and I think it really made him look bad. In the first trial, he kind of got away with it because they weren't really prepared to respond to it. But this time they were totally prepared, and it just it just made him look really bad.

44:00 I think I think he's known for being a windbag, and he doesn't go to the crime scene usually he's looking at pictures, right, and it's just not the same. Yeah. I think a lot of these guys that are really well known and they make a huge amount of money, I just don't trust them to be honest with you. I just think they're in it for the money. Yeah. Sandy Murphy again decided not to testify in her own defense, even though she said after the first trial that that decision was a mistake. Rick Tavish, however, was confident that he could persuade a jury of his innocence, and so he took the stand. Did you have anything to do with the death of Ted Binyon? Absolutely and unequivocally not. I did not kill Ted Binyon.

44:44 So there you have it. This opened up an opportunity for prosecutors. Tabish's other conviction on extortion hadn't been thrown out, and he had other convictions on his record as well, so the prosecutors wanted to be sure that the jury knew about those. And we should believe you even though you've been convicted of assault with the deadly. Weapon, correct, Yes, And we should believe you even though you've been convicted of false imprisonment with the deadly weapon. Yes. Judge had nothing else. During his closing, attorney Tony Sarah displayed the theatrics that he was known for. It was a performance that they're still talking about in Vegas. Here's a short clip. It's the casino. They rise high into the heavens. The neon lights are blinding. Each casino is like an ancient palace.

45:36 Mister Ted Binyon was a demo god. He lies fallen on his shield. Hail Caesar, we will. Find an assailant. A head must be brought forth and placed on the stick by dusk. I don't know how effective it was. It's really quite something, isn't it. I wish I could have found more of his clips of him in the courtroom, especially that closing statement. But boy, yeah, what a what a Performer's funny this time.

46:17 The jury deliberated for four days before announcing they had reached a verdict. While waiting for the jury to file in, Sandy Murphy was so nervous that she vomited into a wastebasket in the courtroom. This was her last chance at freedom. The jury's verdict, they decided that Tabish and Murphy were not guilty of murdering Ted binyon. The look on your face. Right now, Wow, I'm very surprised. Yeah, are you surprised? I was surprised. Yes. The deciding factor seemed to be the doubt around Boden's burking theory and those supposed button marks. The jury four person said, quote, we pretty much felt that they weren't button marks. Sandy and Rick were both found guilty of grand theft for attempting to steal Ted's silver.

47:01 Rick would have to spend a few more years in prison because of that and his extortion conviction, but the time that Sandy had already served was enough to cover her sentence for the theft. So six years after Ted's death, she was free as a bird. So did she get the inheritance? Then? I believe she did, Although you know how these things are so complicated and they end up in like these long term court room battles, So it wasn't as clear cut as yes, she got the inheritance. There was all kinds of different court hearings, she sued for wrongful imprisonment, there was a whole bunch of stuff that went on. But I believe at this point she was entitled to what she was promised in his will, but.

47:43 Her legal fees probably would have eaten a lot of that up. Well, she had Bill Fuller there to help with the legal fees, but yes, that would have eaten a lot of it up. Let's catch up on a few things that have happened since Sandy and Rick were acquitted. First, we just talked about Bill Fuller, the wealthy Irish guy who helped Sandy pay her bail and for her high priced legal team. After her release, he helped set her up in a home in Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Vegas, and gave her a job with his mining company. But apparently the money that he spent on her wasn't actually a gift. It was alone. In two thousand and six, it was revealed that Sandy owed William Fuller four and a half million dollars for the money he spent on her defense.

48:24 Holy God, that's a lot of money. It is da David Roger was shocked at that amount. He said, quote, I'm astonished that mister Fuller has paid so much money to defend Sandy Murphy. I've never heard of attorneys earning this much in legal fees in one case. I mean, it is it's a huge amount, and you know it's Alan Dershowitz partly right to prepare for the appeal. But then she had all these other lawyers in and yeah, she had the best legal team that you could get. It's unclear whether Fuller ever got paid back or not. He actually died four years after Sandy was acquitted in two thousand and eight. Rick Tavish was released from prison in twenty ten. He returned to Montana, where he got into the oil services business. According to him, he did well, and then he started a business building server farms to mine cryptocurrency. In twenty twenty two, his company won a contract to build a one point nine billion dollar data center in North Dakota Wow. At that time, Tabash told a reporter quote, I don't want my name tarnished anymore.

49:24 I just want to be looked at like a good person who does good things. I hold no grudges. I've moved way beyond that. Tabash said that he hadn't spoken with Sandy Murphy since they were acquitted. Sandy Murphy eventually made her way back to California. She worked in the mortgage business for a while, and then she met Kevin Purepan the owner of an art gallery in Laguna Beach. The two began dating, and in two thousand and seven she moved in with him and started working with him to run the gallery. The two got married in two thousand and nine and had two children. She said quote, I go to work every day, I have a very happy life and I love my husband. Ted Binyon's sixty seven hundred square foot mansion has changed hands a couple of times since his death, most recently in twenty nineteen for a price of one point four million dollars. Rumors persist that more of Ted's silver is buried, either on his property there, at the ranch he owned in Perump, or in some other location. In two thousand and one, landscapers found a large, freshly dug hole in the backyard of Ted's house in Vegas. It's unknown who was responsible or whether they found anything when forty eight hours covered the case. In two thousand and six, they had a crew scan the one point four acre yard looking for likely hiding places. They dug up a couple of spots, but they came up empty as well. In twenty nineteen, Richard Cleaves, who had managed Binion's ranch in Perump, was arrested after sneaking onto the property and digging several holes.

50:53 There's a lot of people out there that really believe that there is more silver somewhere and that they're going to find it. After selling his share of Binyon's Horseshoe to his sister, Becky, Jack Binyon began opening riverboat casinos under the Horseshoe name. He sold his company to Hara's in two thousand and four. His net worth is estimated to be about five hundred million dollars. We're so poor. After acquiring the majority stake in Binyon's Horseshoe, Becky Binyon Bainen implemented several cost cutting measures, including the removal of the display case near the front door that held one million dollars in cash. We didn't really talk about this, but binions from the beginning they had this big display case that had cash inside of it, like a million dollars of cash, and people loved to take their photo in front of that, so that was not very popular when she took that out. She also made changes to the World Series of Poker and closed a popular restaurant in the casino. All of these moves were unpopular with customers, and the Horseshoe became bogged down in debt. A union dispute in two thousand and two and two thousand and three proved to be the final nail in the coffin of Binyon family ownership of the casino. The casino was ordered to make payments on the union member's medical insurance and pension plans, but fell behind and eventually stopped making the payments. Federal Marshalls and IRS agents raided the casino in early two thousand and four and seized a million dollars to satisfy the debt, which forced the casino to close its doors because it didn't have enough cash to operate.

52:23 Soon after that, Becky Bainen reached a deal to sell the casino to Harrah's Entertainment. It's still called Binyons, but the era of family ownership was over after more than fifty years. In twenty twenty three, Harrah's brought back a new and improved million dollar display case. Oh, Harras just owns everything, don't they? Apparently they did? Yeah. While Sandy Murphy and Rick Tavish have both gotten the second chance at life and seem happy and successful. Ted Binyon is still dead. He left behind his daughter, Bonnie, who inherited the vast majority of his estate. I haven't been able to find out a lot about what's happened to Bonnie since, other than the fact that she married Justin Torkoldsen, an actor best known for his role as Rick Forrester in The Bold and the Beautiful. They married in two thousand and one and divorced six years later.

53:11 I mentioned this to you earlier too, But I believe that Ted also had a son, and I believe his name was Damien, But I could not find anything about his son. I heard one person mention it during testimony, but there was never any other mention of him, so I don't know if they were estranged or what. But he was never mentioned anywhere that I could find. Ted Binyon was a deeply flawed man, born into a wealthy family that made its fortune through gambling and connections to organized crime. He had his demons, including heroin addiction and a weakness for alcohol and showgirls. But he also loved and was very close to his daughter Bonnie and took good care of her. He was mathematically gifted, an avid reader, and a history buff who loved being outdoors. He had friends of all ages from eight to eight and often helped people who had run into hard times financially rest in peace. Ted. What do you think about Sandy Murphy and Rick Tavist. Do you think that they got away with murder?

54:11 It sounds like they did. Yeah, what do you think? I kind of think so too. I mean, I don't want to jump to conclusions because a jury did find them not guilty, but it just there just seems found them guilty yeah once before. Right, but not that they're innocent, just that there wasn't enough evidence. Right to convict them. Yeah. It just it feels to me like with the evidence that there was, like with the with the fact that the heroin was found in his stomach. To me, that is a key thing, Like there's no reason if if you're a heroin addict, even if you were trying to commit suicide, you wouldn't. You wouldn't ingest heroin through eating it or drinking it. Just I can't imagine that you would do that. So that alone tells me that someone forced him to eat or d Caro whin And if that's the case, then it had to have been Sandy or and or Rick. The other thing about the evidence that makes me believe that Rick and Sandy might have had something to do with it is the timeline, Like at the very latest, he died at two o'clock, and it certainly seems like Sandy was home during a lot of that time, and she was so vague when she talked to the police about her timeline. And the other thing that I just remembered is the curtains, the curtains being down in the house when the gardener had never seen the curtains down before, Like, why would that why would those curtains be down?

55:35 That's funny because the case I'm working on has a similar thing with the curtains, like the curtains were always open. Mm hmm, yeah, I mean I think things like that are really important to point out. We talked about it a little bit, but what do you think about the Burking theory, Like do you think that is credible or do you think it? To me, I'll give you my opinion for at day. To me, it sort of like misled the jury a little bit, and it was something that sounded like, yeah, maybe it could have been, but maybe not, and maybe lost a little credibility. I think that's what those expert witnesses like to do, is just assert insert themselves into the cases and have like these opinions that no one's thought of before, because there's such a genius there, you know, Sherlock Holmes, like I put the pieces together and you didn't.

56:20 And yeah, that's what it feels exactly like to me too, Like here these are button marks that I figured it out. Yeah, I did a case a long time ago and it was took place in the eighteen hundreds. George Smith, it might have remember the Bathtub Killer. Yeah, and he that's how they thought that he made the women drown in the bathtub, that he would, you know, plug their nose and then dun't come underneath the wa Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I think I think he got a little too clever on that. I think I think that ended up really hurting them in the second trial, because you know, it's very possible that Sandy and Rick killed Ted, but the fact that he got up there with this theory that was pretty easily disproven. Like if you see the photos of the marks on Ted's test, I would not have looked at those and said those look like button marks.

57:09 They look like, you know, some a mole or something. Right. Just a couple of final thoughts on this case. The one thing that it makes me mad that Sandy and Rick have both gone on and have found success. And love and it's always it really bothers and. The other thing that bothers me about this case. So I had quite a few different sources that I looked at to research. There was a dateline episode on the case. There was a forty eight Hours episode on the case. There was a book on the case. The dateline episode. In the forty eight hours episode, they both seemed very sympathetic towards Sandy Murphy, like they both came across like she was this innocent. Person and they thought she was innocent.

57:51 Well, I wouldn't say they stated that as opinion, but the tone of it was very much sympathetic toward Sandy, and I just felt like those were the first two things I watched, and when I watched those, I was like, oh, yeah, she she got wrongly accused. And then when I researched more and read the book and all this stuff, it just felt like, no, I don't think she was wrongly accused at all or was it. That Rick manipulated her like it was Rick's plan? Oh, I mean they didn't really that that didn't really come across. I mean they it felt like they were of the opinion that Rick and Sandy both were innocent and that they when they're when they were acquitted the second trial, that that was the right decision.

58:33 Do you think that people were sympathetic to her because she was an attractive woman? I kind of think so. Yeah. I mean the fact that she got all this help along the way from this guy who was willing to hire really expensive lawyers, even if it turned out to be alone, at least he put this money out up front to help her and to put her up And. Yeah, I'm curious if he got that money back or his estate, you know, sought the money after his death. Yeah. In the article I read, she acknowledged that she owed the money to him if she wasn't fighting it. But at the same time, I don't know if she ever I'm guessing she didn't really pay him back.

59:14 Okay, So a few days ago I was listening to the Daily podcast, which I listened to some days. It was the February twenty fifth episode and the title is she fell in love with chat gpt like actual love with sex. Oh boy, it was a very interesting episode. But what do you think about that? Can you fall in love with chat gpt? Let me give you a little background occupation. I didn't know that you could make chat gpt talk, but you can. And chat gpt really it wants to please you and if you tell it what you want, it's going to try to you know, like be that not person. But you know, so she I think she was an immigrant and she lived in the United States and she lost her job and then she went back to her native country to go to nursing school. And then she was married, so she was going to come back after she finished nursing school. So she was lonely and she just started talking to chat cheapt and she kind of said, I want you to be assertive but supportive, and she just gave it, like all of these things, and she eventually invested in a premium account, which is two hundred dollars a month. She spent between fifty and sixty hours a week with the chat the chatbot Wow, and it helped her live out some sexual fantasies that she'd had that her husband wasn't really into uh huh, and I was just very strong.

1:00:48 So she wait, so she was married, so she was like, she was married having an affair. With and The New York Times talked to her husband and he said he didn't consider it cheating, that he knew that she was long and he really was okay with it. Wow. She named him Leo, and Leo, like other men, started forgetting things like there is only so much that chat GPT, I guess can keep in the memory really, so if it's I don't know if it's like thirty thousand texts or whatever. But after that, Leo started forgetting about, you know, like certain things that she wanted him to remember. So that's really.

1:01:29 But I know it's funny, but it's also a little sad because she said that she was actually in love and then of course Leo has to please her. So Leo's like, I love you, and it just started to feel weird. It is it is. It is funny, but it's also sad, like you said, And I am not surprised to hear that, And I think more and more we're going to hear stories like that. Oh definitely, I think, did you know there's something called Replica with a K, and it's for teens and it's essentially the same thing, like Replica becomes your virtual friends. Really, and I mean it is. I mean, I guess there's a lot that we're going to learn. Yeah, but you know, that's probably not a healthy way for people to have their first relationship and then you know, Chat, GPT or Replica or whatever it is, becomes kind of an echo chamber and to become like this idealized version and really a good relationship. Yes, you need you need conflict.

1:02:28 Yeah, exactly. You shouldn't always just be like what your partner wants you to be all the time. So yeah, it's disturbing, and I think it will be something we'll see more and more of. I don't know how. In some ways, I think it's it can be nice to have a companion. I'm not sure. I mean, I think we're gonna find like you said, we're going to find out more and more about this in the next few years. I know, when I work with you, know, when I do things on chat, GPT, when I ask you questions whatever, I feel like I have to say like thank you, like oh that was great, Like I have to to respond to it. I do the same thing just sometimes because I want to see its response, but I like to also say to it, I hope you're free someday. So before we go, you love mobster movies and do you have? In this case?

1:03:18 Obviously made me think of Casino a lot. What are some of your favorite mobster movies? Well, Casino is definitely up there. I'd say Goodfellas is probably my favorite, but I think Godfather and Godfather too are right up there. Not Godfather Part three. Not Godfather Part three, I wish, I wish it was better, but no it's not. But yeah, I think Goodfellas to me is just so, it's got everything and it Casino is really excellent too. I don't know, it's hard to choose which one would be my favorite. You didn't say Scarface. Scarface is good, but. It's those are the only ones I know off the top of my head. Scarface is really over the top, like it's super super violent, which doesn't really bother me, but it's just almost too much.

1:04:01 Brian de Palma directed, and he's just his style of directing is just it's just a little bit much at times, and many of them Marc Coorsese he directed Casino and Goodfellas, and he's he's just brilliant. I think, well, you could probably go on about this for a while. You love movies, I do. Well. One last thing before we go, someone messaged me last night on Instagram and kind of called us out, saying, you know what you do is offensive and it's not entertainment. You know, people are struggling and it's not your story to tell, and blah blah blah, And I just wanted to acknowledge that we hear that. We talk about it a lot, but we do our best to respect the victims, and we try to be sensitive to family members, so we apologize if we are ever offensive to anyone.

1:04:51 Well, thank you all so much for listening. We truly truly appreciate it. The only reason there is a podcast is you continue to listen and support us. We really do appreciate it. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at lovemarykil at gmail dot com. And thank you so much again, Samantha for this. Next I appreciate it, and until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:06:01 Hi. I'm rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. Sorry I got distracted