Sara and Michael Colucci

0:00 Hi. I'm Rich and I'm Tina. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage is. That some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I am fabulous today. How are you? I am doing great. It is a beautiful day here in southeast Michigan. It's beautiful but blustery, very very windy. I like a windy day. Yeah, it's cool.

0:42 Do you want to just talk about the weather for an hour? I thought we could. I thought we might get some snow by next Monday. Really, yeah, it's hard to believe. It is hard to be It would probably. Just be floury. It's nothing serious because it's been pretty warm. Oh do you want to stop talking about the weather now? Oh? We could keep talk about the weather. I think people love here talk about We can talk about the time change. We had a time change last weekend. That's crazy, Well crazy, I'm measure if that's the right word for it. Super annoying. I think most people really hate the time change, especially if you have young kids. My heart goes out to people with you know, younger kids, because I remember how brutal that was. You think old people like you because it seems to really be affecting you.

1:24 Yeah, it does. I'm not a big fan of it either. Yeah. So the episode that we are doing today so the first time this has ever happened on Mary Kill. I started this case this summer when it was kind of a breaking news case and I was like, yeah, I'm not feeling it, and I put it on a shelf. I do that. Actually, I have done that several times. Were all a startercase. Get like a third into it, I'm like, I'm not into it, and I end up dropping it. But you picked this one up. Yeah, so sure did some of the research was mine. Yeah, thank you for your work on it. I appreciate it. You did a lot more work on it though I did. But you you always seem to have like multiple cases that you're working out at once, where I'm I'm more like, I work on one case at a time and then I can't even think about another case until I finish that one case. Yeah.

2:10 Well, one of our brains works better than the others. I would say better, just different. For sure. I feel like I have to be working ahead all the time. Like, right now, I'm working on a Patreon case, but I'm also working on a regular case. This is really boring. Let's move on. I don't know how you do it. Are you happy now that at least one sports season is over? You said that kind of like, are you happy now or once? Well, I know it was hard what has happened. That's slightly frustrating in general. I don't care. You watch your sports, have at it if it makes you happy, I'm happy for you. But the thing that kind of stinks is like the Lions have gotten better, so they're tending to play on like Monday night, Monday night or Sunday night. And U of M also has had some night games on a Saturday night, care right, So it seems like.

2:58 And then the World Series is always it too. So yeah, so that was kind of like, you know, it was Halloween season and we really only watched one scary Halloween movie together, and I was a little bummed about that. That is a little bit of a bummer. Well, that's why I said it like that, because I know it's been a lot. I appreciate your patience. Okay, cool, I'm famished. Do you have a snack for me. I do, but I'm really ashamed to say, you're not gonna like this. Oh, it's okay. You every time i'd raw asparagus or something. Every time I do a case from South Carolina, which is where this case is, I google like snacks from South Carolina. Yeah, and this snack consistently comes up, and I've never done it before. I finally was like, you know what I'm just going to do this.

3:44 Is it a crab boil or. No, it's boiled peanuts. Oh and I didn't make them like homemade because you have to use like raw peanuts or green peanuts, and you can't find those. So I bought a can of boiled peanuts, but I bought a bat. I brought a backup snack. Is okay, Well, I have these skippy peanut butter bites that have been sitting here since last week. I have I could always eat. I have the boiled peanuts, but I brought a backup snack, which is Hostess Twinkies for chocolate. When you just open with the twinkies, I know that's going to be a lot, but you feel obligated to do the boiled peanuts. I feel snack that is featured in South Carolina exactly. I'm happy to try them. I love peanuts, all right.

4:31 I think I already know based on your reaction. But what did you think about the boiled peanuts? Those were horrible? I'm not sure who was like, let's make a nice peanut like mushy. You tasted like a I don't know, like a bean or something. Yeah, I'm guessing they're a lot better when you buy them, like from a street vendor in South Carolina or something like that. But yeah, those are not good at all. How about the chocolate twinkies. They're pretty good. I don't know if it was like the taste of the peanut was still in my mouth, but it tasted a little off to me too. Yeah, I did not love them either. I thought they were really definitely because you love a twinkie. Yeah, they were definitely better than the boiled peanuts. But can you explain the boiled peanuts that you bought.

5:12 They're in a can. Yeah, they come in a can that's called peanut patch boiled peanuts, and they're like in liquid. And I warmed it up because it says you said, it says you can eat them right out of the can, but you also can warm them. Well, we will not be eating those again. No, maybe just South Carolina they'd be better. I have seen a guy in ann Arbor. He sells peanuts. I think that's right. He's got a big like signed by the side. It's on. Which road is the Dexter and Urba road? Yeah, because everyone knows Dexter and Urba road. But yeah, maybe we should swing by there sometimes. Yeah, Well, thank you for your effort. By the way, we hardly had any trigger treaters. We're recording this on Monday, November three, hardly had any, not hardly had any, but we had like probably a third of what we usually did. So curious if you guys out there had fewer trigg or treaters too.

6:00 So much candy left. It's not good, No. It's not good. How about we get to today's case. Fabulous idea. Today's case is a recommendation from our friend Chrissy. Thank you Chrissy for the recommendation. And I do want to say before we start that this episode contains discussion of suicide, so please listen with care. On the evening of May twentieth, twenty fifteen, at seven to fifteen PM, a panicked man called nine one one in Berkeley County, South Carolina. Please hurry, he begged, my wife tried to kill herself. I'm doing CPR. When the dispatcher asked why he believed that his wife had tried to kill herself, the man seemed baffled, saying, she put herself around a hose or something, I don't know. The caller was forty five year old Michael Calucci. The woman he was desperately trying to save or claimed to be, was his wife, thirty eight year old Sarah Lynn Calucci.

6:50 When first responders arrived, they found Sarah lying on the ground near a point where a six foot tall chain link fence met the side of a small warehouse. The building was behind the Gold Standard, the cash for gold store that the couple owned together. A garden hose hung loosely from a reel on the wall next to Sarah, looping over the top of the fence post. Michael told officers that Sarah had used it to hang herself, but something felt off. Sarah's body was already cold, with signs of lividity, meaning she had been dead for some time, and Michael's story it didn't make sense. He said he'd been sitting in the car just twenty feet away while Sarah stepped behind the building to pee. It was still light out, he would have had a clear view, so how could he have missed it? And what about the fresh cut on his lip which he blamed on CPR.

7:39 As investigators dug deeper, more questions surfaced about money, about their volatile marriage, and about what really happened behind that warehouse fence. Was this the tragic suicide of a troubled woman or the deliberate murder of a wife by her husband. Sarah Linmore was born in July nineteen seventy six to Barbara and James Ronald More, better known as Ronnie. She grew up in Goose Creek, South Carolina, just outside of Charleston. Friends described Sarah as sweet, loving and happy, but also demanding and firey you and crossed a little bit of a firecracker. She was strong willed and never hesitated to stand up for what she believed was right. At Stratford High School in Goose Creek, Sarah was known for her bubbly personality, vivacious energy, and natural charm. She was a girly girl who dressed well and was always perfectly put together.

8:31 Friends remember her as sassy, quick with a comeback, and possessed with a dry sense of humor. Her senior year, she was voted most mischievous. Some say mischievous, Some say mischievous. I think it's mischievous. I think it's mischievous. We didn't even google it, so we're just having this debate live on air without the benefit of a definitive source. It's okay, you can just keep going. We misagreed to disagree. Sarah married young just nineteen, and that marriage listed less than a year. Soon after, she reconnected with an old high school boyfriend, Michael Vieira. The two lived together for several years before marrying in the early two thousands. Michael worked as a contractor while Sarah built a career in real estate. In October two thousand and three, they welcomed a daughter, Bishop. By two thousand and seven, Sarah's parents had helped her and Michael buy a brand new home in the Foxbank neighborhood, a growing community built around a sixty seven acre lake with parks, a dozen ponds, and a resort style pool. The house itself was more than twenty six hundred square feet with three bedrooms and three bathrooms.

9:37 Super cute house. I remember looking up pictures of it. It was, and Sarah took great pride in her home. Friends said that it always was beautifully decorated, spotless, and a reflection of her eye for detail and style. In May two thousand and seven, thirty two year old Michael Vieira attended a Harley Davidson rally near Myrtle Beach, about two and a half hours from home. He and his friends were partying, taking LSD along with some cocaine and marijuana. Before long, Michael became agitated and erratic, talking about Jesus, speaking in tongues and acting violent and irrational. Alarmed, his friends called Sarah, who told them to let him walk it off. Early the next morning, Michael's body was discovered alongside a rural roadway by a newspaper delivery driver. He was wearing no shirt, no shoes, and only one sock.

10:27 He had been stabbed twenty seven times. A small black pocket knife lay on the ground beside him. He had one thousand dollars of cash on him, along with a vial of cocaine. An autopsy determined that he died from multiple stab wounds, several of which penetrated his chest cavity, lacerating his heart and left lung. He had no defensive wounds, and the only blood found on the knife was his own. Toxicology tests showed alcohol point zero five percent LSD, cocaine, and marijuana in his system. Investigators found no evidence of foul play by anyone other than the victim. The death was ruled accidental and the case was closed. I wasn't able to find a lot more detail about his death.

11:10 I did read that some people thought it was suspicious. He had twenty seven stab wounds, which seems a little unusual for someone, and. So many Ellen Greenberg had too, which is really strange. It is, Yeah, but I don't believe his death was suspicious. I don't believe there was anyone else involved. I think he just took too many drugs and was hallucinating, potentially had some other problems. Do you believe he stabbed himself? I do, yes. Michael left behind thirty year old Sarah and their three year old daughter Bishop. Sarah was devastated by Michael's death, but she had a young child who needed her, not one to wallow in self pity, she worked hard to rebuild her life and create stability for Bishop.

11:51 Sarah was hesitant to date again after losing Michael Vieira, but in two thousand and nine, a friend insisted she meet an acquaintance, another Michael, jeweler Michael Calucci. Michael Calucci was born Michael Frederick Antonio in January nineteen seventy to John and Doris Antonio, who together owned a beauty school in New Jersey. Michael was their second child, following his older brother Johnny. When Michael was just four years old, tragedy struck his father, John died at age thirty six. A few years later, Doris remarried a jeweler named Evo Francesco Calucci. Evo had emigrated from Naples, Italy, at age eighteen, coming from a long line of jewelers.

12:34 He opened his first US store in New York City in nineteen fifty nine. Evo had five children from his first marriage, but after meeting Doris, he'd divorced his wife and started a new life with Doris and her two young sons. In nineteen seventy five, Evo Doris, Johnny, Michael, and three of Evo's children moved to South Carolina's Low Country, where Evo soon established himself as one of the regions lead being jewelers with his store, Caluchi's Jewelry Factory. South Carolina is divided into four distinct regions, the Upstate, the Midlands, the Pead, and the low Country. The Pad takes its name from the river that runs through it, which was itself named for the indigenous tribe that lived along the river.

13:19 The low Country refers to the southeastern corner of the state, stretching across a dozen counties below what's known as the fall line, the point where the hard rock of the Piedmont gives way to the soft, sandy soil of the coastal plain. Much of the low Country sits only about two hundred seventy feet above sea level. That low elevation, along with its southern latitude, is what gives the region its name, but geography alone doesn't define the low Country. What makes it truly distinctive is its beauty. A landscape shape by salt marshes, tidal creeks, and barrier islands that fringe the Atlantic Coast. Live oaks draped in Spanish moss, palmetto tree swaying in the breeze and dense maritime forests give the area it's unmistakable character. Ordered by the ocean and the Savannah River, the Low Country is a place where history, nature and culture intertwine, and it's setting plays a quiet but powerful role in our story.

14:16 We haven't spent much time in the low Country, but we did go to Hilton that a few years ago and definitely fond memories as a great vacation and beautiful place. Really beautiful. We went to Savannah too during that trip, and it's just our country is so beautiful. There's so many unique terrains, and it's just wild to me that you drive a few hundred miles south and it's a completely different terrain. Yeah, we kind of fell in love with the area. Yeah, we really did. Yeah, it was just so nice to be right by the ocean. And other than the alligators. But let's get back to Evo Kulucci. Known for his integrity, Ebo built a reputation as a fair and honest businessman. His motto was simple, you make a living, you don't have to make a killing. What do you think he meant there?

14:58 I think he just meant that to be a businessman. You don't have to be cutthroat, you don't have to be a jerk. And I think it's you know, he seems like he was a very good businessman in terms of caring about people and not trying to take advantage of people. And his family came first. Yeah. Outside of jewelry, Evo invested in real estate, buying condemned houses and renovating them into apartments that he later rented out. At one point he owned as many as twenty rental properties. Although Evo never formally adopted Michael, the young man took the caluci name when he turned eighteen, perhaps an effort to associate himself with his stepfather's respected reputation. By then, Michael had decided to follow in Evo's footsteps and become a jeweler himself.

15:42 In nineteen ninety seven, at age twenty seven, Michael married his first wife, Camilla. Three years later, he opened his own jewelry store in Somerville, South Carolina, Colucci's Jewelers. The couple eventually had a daughter, Providence Milan Calucci. I believe she went by Milan, but. Within a few years of Milan's birth, the marriage fell apart. In October two thousand and eight, Michael filed for divorce. It was a bitter and protracted battle, where the ninety five court filings, restraining orders, mandatory drug testing, and a contentious custody fight. The divorce was finalized in December twenty ten, with Michael awarded sole custody of Milan. In April two thousand and five, while still married to Camilla, an incident occurred between Michael and a friend named Curtis Reid. Curtis was at Michael's house one afternoon, the two relaxing and watching TV. At some point, Curtis got up to grab a drink from the kitchen. Michael, who had wrestled in high school, snuck up behind him, put him in a choke hold, and lifted him off his feet. Then he threw Curtis to the ground, fracturing his left leg and ankle.

16:50 It's unclear what led to the incident, though it appears Michael may have been goofing around or showing off. I can't remember the last time I was like rough housing with another guy like that. Well, you used to it with our son, but then here Curtis didn't have medical insurance and racked up about forty five thousand dollars in hospital bills. To avoid a lawsuit, Michael agreed to make regular one thousand dollars payments over the next three and a half years. He made about sixteen of those payments, but then stopped. Curtis eventually sued him for the remaining balance. The end of the payments to Curtis coincided with Michael's finances beginning to spiral. In May two thousand and five, he and a business partner, along with an investment company, took out a four hundred and fifty thousand dollars loan to buy eighteen acres of land in Charleston County. It's unclear what the plan was for that property. In October two thousand and six, Michael and Camilla took out a one point five million dollar mortgage on a waterfront home. Just over a year later, the loan company sued them, alleging they hadn't made a payment in almost six months. In May two thousand and eight, the couple secured an another loan, this time for five hundred and fifty thousand dollars to purchase a separate parcel of land, but within a year that bank also sued them for failing to make the required balloon payment. This situation always stresses me out in her stories. When you know these people are in over their head.

18:17 I just don't know how people can live like that. I just it's so stressful. So by the time Michael and Camilla's marriage collapsed, they were being sued by two banks, and Michael was being sued by his former friend Curtis Reed. They were overextended and underwater. This was the situation Michael Calucchi found himself in when he met Sarah Moore in two thousand and nine. Michael and Sarah's mutual friend was determined to set them up. He would call Sarah and ask has he called you yet? She'd say no, and he'd immediately call Michael to say, you need to call her. Eventually Michael did. Their first conversation lasted a long time, and by the end of it they'd agreed to talk again soon. For the next several weeks, they spoke on the phone occasionally. Both were busy, so the calls were short but warm, easy, natural, and always ending with a promise to talk again. After months of these conversations, they finally arranged to meet for dinner one Friday evening in downtown Charleston. Still uncertain about dating, Sarah had a friend on standby in case she needed a quick exit. But, as she would recall later, when I saw him for the first time, it was love at first sight. It was the best date I have ever gone on, and it felt as if he and I had known each other for years. I told my mom the next day, as well as several people who asked about the date, that he and I will get married.

19:41 He is my one and always will be. Sarah's daughter Bishop and Michael's daughter, Milan, just sixteen months apart in age, rounded out the new family. Michael and Milan moved into Sarah's home in Fox Bank, and a year later, on June twenty fourth, twenty eleven, Sarah and Michael Caluchi were married at his historic French Huguenot Church in Charleston. Will be Back after a break. At the time of their marriage, Michael ran two jewelry stores in the Somerville area. The couple soon began running the business together, even converting aloft in one of the stores into a playroom to keep their two young daughters entertained while they worked in a twenty twelve interview with Charleston Living magazine, Sarah said, I love coming to work, being with my husband and having the flexibility to have my children come here. It's a real blessing. Not long after the wedding, Michael legally adopted Bishop as his daughter, though neither he nor Sarah told her parents that he had done so. The couple later purchased a new property on North Main Street, just outside of Somerville. It wasn't a jewelry store, but more of a warehouse that they used for storage and as a place where people could sell gold. They called it the Gold Standard. The signs painted on the front windows advertise expert gold buyers and more dollars for your gold. The plan was for this to be Sarah's business to run. The property consisted of a white painted cinderblock building in front that served as

21:11 the store front, attached to a larger warehouse in the back. On the right side of the front building were doors marked men's and ladies. Beside it, a narrow driveway led to the rear building, secured by a chain link fence and gate. This was the location where, just a few years later, Sarah Calucci would lose her life. These doors that you described were was that a separate entrance for men and women or was that a restroom? Those were two restrooms that were in the front, and that will become relevant later. Ok But I believe that Michael and Sarah didn't have the keys to those restrooms because there was also a restroom in the warehouse in back, which they did have the keys to. Okay. Ivo Kalucci, who had retired to Key West, wasn't happy with how Michael was handling the family legacy. The Kalucci name carried weight in the Charleston area, and Evo felt that Michael's business decisions were tarnishing that reputation. He had never supported Michael's choice to open a second store, and he strongly disagreed with the decision to launch the Gold Standard.

22:12 As the business expanded, Evo's original jewelry store began to struggle. Still holding an ownership stake, Evo came out of retirement to help restore it to stable footing. I think Evo and Michael never really got along very well, and I think when we talked earlier about Evo's business philosophy of making a living not making a killing, I think he was very different from Michael. I think Michael wanted to make a killing. Yeah, exactly. Michael's financial troubles, which had begun years earlier, only deepened after his marriage to Sarah. The expansion stretched their resources thin, and cash flow became a growing problem. The couple fell behind on their mortgage and property taxes. Sarah even admitted to a neighbor that their electricity and water had been cut off at times because they couldn't keep up with the bills. They also fell behind on tuition payment at Northwood Academy, the private school that their daughters attended. By the end of the twenty fourteen twenty fifteen school year, they received a do not return notice.

23:10 In response, the Cluchies sued Northwood Academy for negligence, claiming the school had mistakenly shared information about their financial situation with another family. Not long before she died, Sarah confided in her mother, Barbara Moore, about how bad things had gotten. Still, she told her mom that Michael was working on a major land deal, and if it came through, she believed all of their financial troubles would finally disappear. Alongside their worsening financial troubles, Sarah and Michael's marriage had begun to deteriorate. Michael's casual drug use became more frequent, and by twenty fourteen, Sarah was feeling unsafe, especially when he was high. She called nine one one twice that year and increasingly leaned on her parents for support and for childcare. Sarah had her own struggles. She had battled the prison ever since the death of her second husband, Michael Vieira, and she had been diagnosed with ADHD and post traumatic stress disorder.

24:08 Her depression often intensified in May, around the anniversary of Vieira's death. Under psychiatric care, she was prescribed adderall for ADHD, Xanax for anxiety, and deserel or trazodone for depression. But she also struggled with alcohol abuse and occasionally used cocaine with Michael. When she drank, friend said she could become volatile, picking fights to provoke him. Her mother described her bluntly, when Sarah drank, she was the biggest, baddest, meanest thing that there. Was in those drugs that she was taking, Like none of those are to be taken with alcohol, right, Yeah, exactly. She was really asking for trouble yep. In the weeks leading up to May twentieth, twenty fifteen, Sarah's text messages reveal a relationship in turmoil. Most are messages that she sent to Michael, with occasional replies from him.

24:58 They show a woman's swing between anger, desperation, and exhaustion. April twenty second, don't come back here. I don't need your shit another night. I'm going with Karen to see her attorney tomorrow. Enough is enough for me. Get drunk and bleed out of your ass to death. I'm not playing games with you anymore. Our marriage is over. Go away and the next day, April twenty third, I already know that Bishop and I will have to go to a women's shelter because you are not going to leave. I hope you are happy with the way you found me and the person you have molded me into with your controlling waves. Later that same day, she texted tell Camilla to never contact me again. Enjoy the house I built.

25:39 By the way, the house is in pre foreclosure status. My parents are not going to allow that to happen, but they're not going to allow you to live there either. Think hard and play your cards right, Michael, game on so if you recall, her parents actually owned the house that they lived in, they were supposed to be making the mortgage payments on it, but it was still in her parents' name. On May first, she texted, I would prefer you move out because we don't fuck. Kissing you makes me nauseated, and you and I are nothing alike. You ruined my life, but you won't ruin bishops. I really don't like you and hope you die of a heart attack. Later that night, she sent a flurry of messages, you are the biggest joke in Charleston after all. She sent that same text seven times in a row, then followed with and that makes me the biggest joke in Charleston's wife. On May fifth, Sarah texted, I am tired of being berated for what you have tried to turn me into. You are a problem, but not mine anymore.

26:34 Stupid bastard paid Connie lately, paid anyone lately. I hate you. I will leave with the kids, but I need the keys. Michael replied, have you I'm assuming he meant have you paid anyone lately? Opened the house? I will gladly give you the keys. Sarah says, I will leave with the kids, but I need the keys now. If you think I'm playing some drunk ass man's game, you're wrong. Michael says you can have the keys. I never said otherwise. Sarah replies, Michael, I am so sad that you would rather be right than have a family. Good luck to you. I'm filing for divorce. You got what you asked for, another failed marriage that wasn't your fault, and another business down the tubes. The next day, their tone briefly softened. Sarah asked, how's it going. Michael replied about a property deal that he was working on. Sarah texted, let's keep our fingers crossed, and after a few more exchanges, Michael wrote, I love you, and Sarah responded, that's sweet as exactly the kind of responds to you on when you text someone I love you, isn't it, Or when you tell someone.

27:34 Can't wait to text you that next daybeus text me I love you. On May eleventh. I hate you. The only thing you close in your life is your mouth. Enjoy getting fucked. I want out now. I am leaving tonight. I want a divorce period. When you read some of these texts, I'm just like I don't know how you can send a text like that and come back from that, you know, and like the next day, be how's it going. I think couples have some ugly fights more often than we do. I guess they're not perfect, but we really don't fight very much. Yeah, but just saying things in a text like I want a divorce period like I am just it. Well, they're both under the influence of drugs too. Yeah, I think that probably has something to do with it.

28:15 So two days before her death May eighteenth, she texts, you need to leave. I don't love you like I did before you are less. I need to be happy. Goodbye freak. But later that night, her tone flipped, Baby, I don't want any more fighting. Please. I'm begging you to forgive me. Please. I am sick. I can't do it anymore. Our fighting is my fault. I'm sorry. Please, please forgive me. I'm begging you. Michael replied to that text. I never had anything but love and compassion. I can't bring back the one you love. You can have any pool boy or girl you want. Fuck Shane, he's next, Fuck you all. I don't know who the Shane is that he's referencing, but I think the I can't bring back the one you love must be about Michael Vieira, yeah, or or second husband, because she was obviously still very distraught about his death.

29:04 It's very sad. Sarah's response to that came quickly, Michael, please stop. I'm very sorry. I need you. Please don't hate me, and please don't leave me. I will be the wife you deserve. Their messages continued late into the night, oscillating between hostility and please for forgiveness. At one point, Sarah wrote, I am very sick and I love you. I can't argue anymore. I think I'm dying. So there were I know that was a lot of text messages, and there were a lot more that I didn't read, But I think these give you a glimpse into kind of the chaos of those final weeks and Sarah's sort of mindset. Interestingly, like in the texts that I saw, there were very few responses from Michael. I was going to ask about that.

29:44 Yeah, And I believe what I read is that these text messages were taken both. They looked at both Michael's phone and Sarah's phone, So I don't believe that any of them were deleted because they would have both had to delete them. So I'm not sure if he just was very like when she would get in the state, probably when she was drinking, she would get very aggressive text him all these things, and I think he just didn't engage. Yeah, that sometimes is the best way to handle someone's anger. Yeah, was supposedly when it's a rational anger, like sounds like she was probably under the influence of something when she was sending the angriest of these texts. Yeah, for sure. Sarah's mother later confirmed that in the days before her death, Sarah told her that she did plan to leave Michael.

30:27 On Wednesday, May twentieth, twenty fifteen, Sarah and Michael spent much of the day at their attorney's office discussing the lawsuit they had filed against Northwood Academy, their daughter's school. That afternoon, Sarah's mother, Barbara, picked up the girls from school and took Bishop to her piano lesson. Sarah had told her mom that they were planning a family night that evening, a tradition that usually involved playing games, performing little shows, or making music together. She has Barbara to have the girls home by six o'clock Later that day, Sarah called her mother from her car or Michael was still inside the attorney's office. Robert described her daughter as upset and angry during this call. The reason that Sarah was upset had something to do with drug use, though it wasn't clear whether she met Michael's or her own.

31:13 She told her mother she wasn't going to live like this anymore. Sarah said she had a plan. She would chaperone Bishop's fieldship the next day, attend her fifth grade graduation on Friday, and then on Saturday mornings she would take Bishop and leave Michael for good. She wanted Barbara to take control of the house legally owned by her and her dad after she left. After the meeting, Michael and Sarah drove to Magnolia Cemetery to visit the grave of Sarah's late husband, Michael Vieira. It was near the eighth anniversary of his death, a time of year that always hit Sarah hard. His grave sat in a quiet section near the water, shaded by trees. Michael would later say that Sarah became upset at the cemetery after learning that someone else would be buried between Vieia's plot and the water.

31:59 I did read that there is no record of anyone being buried between his plot and the water even after that. So she just liked the idea of him having the view of the water. Yeah. But what I'm saying, though, is that I think Michael was either making that up or if there were plans to bury someone there, it changed because no one was ever buried between him and the water. Okay. At some point afterward, the two stopped to have some drinks. According to Michael, they were singing and having a good time, and the drive back towards home when Sarah said she needed to use the bathroom. They were near their business, the Gold Standard, so Michael pulled in there. The front building had two restrooms, but neither Michael nor Sarah had keys to them. There was another restroom in the warehouse behind the main building, but rather than unlocking the gate and going through, Michael said, Sarah decided to squeeze through the narrow eightent gap between the fence and the wall to relieve herself behind the building in broad daylight, while wearing a sheath dress and stiletto heels. Friends would later testify that it wasn't unusual for Sarah to urinate outside if she needed to. But Michael did have the keys to both the gate and the warehouse, so it seems like a surprising decision.

33:13 Let's talk a little bit more about the layout of this here, because I know it's confusing to try to describe it. But the so the driveway went like beside the building and the driveway there was a gate, a chain link fence with a gate across it. So the fence butted up against the side of the building, but there was like an eight inch gap between the fence and the building. So Sarah decide, apparently, according to Michael, decided to squeeze through this gap, rather than Michael, who had the keys to the gate, unlocking it, driving back there, letting her into the warehouse. It just it seems very strange. At the top of the episode, we talked about how I first started investigating this episode, and I remember hearing that I was so confused about it. We'll post some pictures.

33:59 It makes it up a little easier to visualize it. But what's the purpose of having a fence if someone can squeeze through it so easily? But I also read that she did it all the time. It was just easier for her to squeeze through. She wasn't a very big person. She could just squeeze through rather than having to unlock the gates. That's what Michael's attorneys would later argue. It It may it may be the case, but it just still seems very strange to me. And I think that I don't think the site was super secure, Like the chain link fence didn't have like barbed wire on top, so it was more of like a deterrent from someone, you know, breaking in. Most women would not choose to pee outside. Yeah, and I didn't know what a sheath dress was, but it's a pretty kind of.

34:39 Form described by I was surprised by your description of sheath dress and stiletto heels. It just seems like that would be really difficult to pee outside given that clothing combination. As well. Well, I think the sheath it wasn't exactly. It was just a form fitting dress. I've pictures of it, so it wasn't like a sheath dress. I think kind of means like it's a longer dress. It was a shorter dress. Gotcha. Still, Michael told police he waited in the car. The length of that way, however, changed with each telling. To one patrol officer, he said about thirty minutes. To Sarah's mother, he said he sat in the car, listened to two songs and smoked a cigarette. To another relative, he said seven or eight minutes at most. At seven thirteen pm, Michael called nine one one. His voice was panicked. He told the dispatcher to hurry that his wife had tried to kill herself by putting quote a hose around herself or something. He said he was performing CPR. Firefighters arrived first at seven sixteen pm, followed by law enforcement in seven nineteen pm and EMTs at seven twenty one pm.

35:46 That's really cool. So within ten minutes you have all the authorities. There, I mean even like three minutes after the beginning of the call, or was the time that the first responders had real quick, everybody arrived pretty quickly. They found Michael kneeling beside Sarah, who was lying on the concrete near the warehouse wall, her feet close to the chain link fence. As they approached, he shouted, my wife, my wife, my wife, she's gone. They asked him to step back so they could assess her. When they did, they noticed the end of the garden hose beneath her body. The hose ran up the fence, looped around a post and back to the hose reel attached to the wall. A single blonde hair was stuck to it. It was immediately apparent that Sarah was beyond saving. Her skin was cold, her lips and face bluish purple, and lividity had already begun.

36:35 Electrodes confirmed that there was no heartbeat. She was pronounced dead at the scene. The silver Toyota Prius the couple had been driving, was parked about twenty feet away, facing the chain link fence. It was still daylight, clear, calm, with good visibility. Michael appeared distraught. He told first responders his wife had taken her own life. Officers noted that the right side of his lip was swollen and bleeding, which he said was from performing CPR. They also observed abrasions on his left arm and the knuckles of his left hand. Inside the car, investigators found a broken pair of sunglasses and acrylic fingernail on the passenger floorboard. In Sarah's cell phone with a cracked screen. Sarah's autopsy revealed five separate areas of trauma to her neck, five separate areas wow, including two distinct furrows or indentations, primarily located on the left side. They were positioned high on the neck, just below the jawbone. The ligature marks measured about one centimeter wide or three eighths of an inch beneath the surface.

37:42 There were multiple hemorrhages, and the deep soft tissues of her neck concentrated mostly on the right side. Her thyroid cartilage the voice box was fractured, though her hyoid bone remained intact. In addition to the neck injuries, Sarah had a bruise around her left eye, consistent with where her sunglasses had broken. She was missing the acrylic fingernail from her left pinky, the nail they found in the passenger floorboard. She also had abrasions on both knees and on the top of one foot. Her bladder contained about one hundred and eighty millilters of urine, enough to indicate that she had likely felt the need to relieve herself if it was her intent when she went behind the building. She died before she had the chance. As I thought, when you died, you relieved your bladder.

38:30 I'm guessing it depends on the circumstances of your death, but apparently apparently not always. Toxicology reports showed a blood alcohol concentration of point two three, nearly three times the legal limit. Sarah also tested positive for cocaine and xanax. The cause of death was determined to be asphyxia due to neck compression. The manner of death, however, was listed is undetermined. Oh, undetermined. Yeah, it seems a little surprising, I guess, but yeah, just all the other factors around this, the injuries to her, you know, her eye, all the injuries on her neck, the broken pinky like in the. Car, really indicates some sort of fight to me.

39:13 Yeah, And she had abrasions on her legs and the top of one foot, which sounds sort of like one being dragged potentially across concrete. So I've read and I didn't include a lot of this in my script, but I think there are a lot of allegations that the police kind of looked the other way and a lot of this. There are allegations that Michael had close relationships on the police force, but I wasn't able to really verify a lot of that. But it does make you wonder. It seems it sort of seems like they kind of took his word and said, oh, she killed herself. Was the Koluchi names strong enough that it they had like pulled? I think so that's sort of my impression. We'll be back after a break.

40:00 Michael's account of that evening shifted repeatedly depending on who he was talking to and when he told some people that Sarah had hanged herself. Other times he said she must have tripped and accidentally caught herself in the hose. That just seems like such a bizarre explanation. Yeah, Oh she tripped and caught and caused all these injuries and just makes no sense. It makes no sense at all. I really had a hard time with that, Like, it's just impossible to think of someone like stringling themself with a hose at their company where they were right. It just doesn't make sense. We don't all. At first, Michael claimed he hadn't been drinking that night, but later he admitted that he had, specifically fireball whiskey. He also gave conflicting timelines to police.

40:43 He said he waited in the car for about thirty minutes before finding Sarah. To her mother, he said he listened to two songs and smoked one cigarette to another relative. It was seven or eight minutes tops. Those discrepancies were just the beginning. Michael's financial problems didn't add with Sarah's death. In fact, they seemed to get worse. In June, barely two weeks after Sarah died, a Somerville man filed a police report over a two caret diamond ring that Michael had agreed to sell on his behalf. According to the man, they had signed a contract in March for Michael to sell the ring, set in a fourteen carrot gold band, for eighty five hundred dollars. Michael sold it right before Sarah's death, but never paid the owner. When the man tried to contact him, Michael dodged his calls. On June fifth, Michael wrote the man a check postated for a few days later. When the man attempted to cash it, the check bounced with no other recourse, he went to the police.

41:40 On June sixteenth, Michael texted him, promising to pay in full soon. He said he was getting a new line of credit and asked for patients. Another customer accused Michael of pawning several items she had given him to repair, including her wedding and engagement rings. After repeated unanswered messages, she eventually tracked the jewelry down herself at a local pawn shop. Oh Boy. Michael appeared increasingly desperate for money. He asked a bar owner friend if he could borrow fifty thousand dollars. Around the same time, his stepfather, Evo filed a claim against him, alleging that Michael owed him seven hundred thousand dollars. Then in December, things got even worse. Sarah's family filed a wrongful death lawsuit against him. Michael also struggled to maintain a stable home for himself, his daughter Milan, and Sarah's daughter Bishop. Because Michael had legally adopted her, he retained custody of her. After Sarah's death. For a couple of weeks, Michael and the girls stayed with Sarah's parents, Barbara and Ronnie Moore. They eventually moved back into the Fox Bank house, which legally belonged to the Moors. Not long after they moved back there, Barbara stopped by and found Michael in the garage rummaging through some papers. The encounter grew tense.

42:56 At one point, Michael turned to her and asked, do you think I did something to say Sarah. Barbara stared at him and replied evenly, did you? Michael said nothing. Barbara stood, walked past him and said, you'd better find another place to live because I'm selling this house, and then she left. Michael and the girls moved in with his mother, Doris and stepfather Evo, but the arrangement didn't last long. Evo resented having him there, especially after Michael began taking his cars without permission, including his prize to Corvette. Evo soon kicked him out. Still, the situation wasn't all bad for Michael. Evo and Doris let him stay in the family's three thousand square foot beach house on Edistow Island.

43:39 Two months after Sarah Calucci's death, the Berkeley County Sheriff's office asked the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, better known as SLED. You've really taken us back to the murder murders. Yeah, we sure are. They asked them to take over the investigation. It took SLED several months to sift through the evidence, but eventually investigators reached a clear inclusion Sarah's death was not a suicide. Here's a summary of the evidence that led them there. The hose that Michael claimed Sarah had hanged herself with was a thick, rigid garden hose, not the soft, flexible kind. It would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fashion into a noose capable of self strangulation. When I heard that she died with a hose, I thought, Okay, it was probably one of those soft, sort of flexible hoses. But I saw within the trial there was a video of it. It's it's a very stiff, thick hose, which if you can picture that, I just can't imagine how you could hang yourself in a.

44:38 Hose or The other theory was that she accidentally hung herself, and that seemed just as unlikely to me. Yeah, even more telling, the ligature marks on Sarah's neck were roughly three eighths of an inch wide, while the hose itself was one inch in diameter. The forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy did not believe that hose could have caused those marks or her death. The physical evidence also suggested a struggle. Sarah's bruised left eye, her broken sunglasses, the torn acrylic fingernail found in the car and Michael's bleeding lip all pointed to some kind of altercation. The abrasions on her knees on the top of her foot led investigators to believe that she had been dragged from the vehicle. There were also problems with Michael's timeline. First responders noted that Sarah's body was cold to the touch, with lividity already setting, in signs that she had been dead for at least thirty minutes before help arrived. Yet, firefighters reached the scene just six minutes after the start of Michael's nine to one one call. And there was the question of visibility. Michael claimed he had been sitting in the car facing the very spot where Sarah supposedly hanged herself, just twenty to twenty five feet away, on a clear evening, still daylight. Investigators found it implausible that he could have missed something so conspicuous. On top of that, Michael's version of events kept changing. The inconsistencies about how long he waited, whether or not he'd been drinking, and how Sarah ended up behind the building were difficult to ignore.

46:10 Michael was not given a breathalyzer test at the scene. I don't believe so, and I think we talked earlier about how I think the police sort of took his version of events. I don't think he was given a breathalyzer. I don't think he had to do a blood test. So yeah, none of that was done. Some of Sarah's friends initially said they weren't shocked to hear that she had died by suicide. They knew she struggled with depression and could be impulsive, but when they learned how she had supposedly done it, none of them believed it. Sarah cared deeply about how she presented herself to others, her appearance, her surroundings, her dignity. The idea that she would end her life in the back lot of a warehouse using a hose looped around a fence simply didn't fit who she was, sled investigators agreed. On May fourth, twenty sixteen, nearly one year after Sarah's death, Michael Calucci was formally charged with her murder. He was arrested but released on bond.

47:06 A few days later, he was placed under house arrest at the home of his mother and stepfather, Doris and Evo, but he was not required to wear an ankle monitor, and ten days after getting out, he moved back to the family's beach house on Edistow Island. He was under house arrest, but not required to wear an inkle monitor. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of crazy, isn't it. Well, that also points to his entitlement. Yeah, for sure. And strangely enough, he apparently left Bishop and Milan to remain living with Evo and Doris when he went to go live on Edistow Island at this three thousand square foot lakehouse. Bishop later talked about how difficult that was, saying that Doris especially wouldn't allow her to express any type of grief or feelings about her mother's death. Doris would tell Bishop to dry up her alligator tears. Bishop said, quote, it's almost like after my mom passed away, it was like that was that, like she never existed.

48:04 Around the time of Michael's arrest, his stepfather, Evo's mental health began to decline. He became increasingly volatile and was eventually diagnosed with mild to moderate dementia. The stress surrounding Michael's legal troubles certainly didn't help. Evo and Michael had never gotten along particularly well, and their relationship grew more strained while Michael was living with them under house arrest. Two weeks after his release on bond, Michael called the Dorchester County Sheriff's office to report that Evo was not well. He said Eva was under a doctor's care, but wasn't in his right mind. It's unclear why Michael made the call, perhaps to create a record in case police were later dispatched to the house, or to have an excuse for moving to Edistoe Island. In August twenty sixteen, Evo filed for divorce from Doris. This was right after Doris reportedly gave seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars to Michael for his legal defense fund. It didn't seem that the divorce was ever finalized, though. Several months later. In April twenty seventeen, North Charleston police were called to Evo's store, the Jewelry Factory, after reports of gunfire. When officers arrived, Evo emerged and said I shot her and the gun is inside. Inside the store, police found Doris dead from a gunshot to the head. She was seventy four. Heartbreakingly, their twelve year old granddaughter was in the store. At the time and

49:35 witnessed the shooting. According to a later wrongful death lawsuit filed by Doris's estate, Evo's behavior had been unraveling since his dementia diagnosis more than a year earlier. The suit alleged that he had regularly exhibited angry outbursts and engaged in arguments with Doris at the jewelry store, even threatening violence. Employees had witnessed several of these incidents. The fights often centered on money, Evo's mental health, and the mounting strain from Michael's murder case. After Evo killed Doris, Bishop was placed in the custody of her maternal grandparents, Barbara and Ronnie Moore. Ivo's attorneys argued that because of his dementia, he was not competent to stand trial for Doris's killing.

50:20 A judge agreed. Evo died three years later, in twenty twenty, at the Somerville Community hospice House. The wrongful death suit was eventually settled for seven hundred thousand dollars. A separate lawsuit filed on behalf of the granddaughter who witnessed the shooting, settled for seven hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Years later, Evo's daughter, Kim Caluchi Lizzie, spoke with Mandy Mattney on the True Sunlight podcast. Kim explained that Michael's upcoming trial and legal expenses had put enormous strain on her father, strain that had worsened his dementia and left him paranoid. She was heartbroken that her father's long respected career was now overshadowed by that single horrific act. She said, my dad loved her, and he would have never hurt her in a million years. People who knew them knew how much he loved her. But I think the pressure of everything that was going on and feeling like they were taking from him everything he built was just too much.

51:17 I think he couldn't take it anymore, and that's why he shot her. Such a sad, sad chapter in this whole story, it really is. It's really heartbreaking. And I think I listened to the interview with his daughter, Kim Calucchi Lizzie, and she speaks so highly of her dad, like she really he really does seem like he was a very good man. I know that's hard to square with him shooting his wife and killing her. Oh, I mean he wasn't in his right mind her. Yeah, for sure. So it is really sad that his legacy was, you know, is basically now all about this. Yeah. Michael Calucci's trial for the murder of his wife, Sarah Lynn Colucci, began in November twenty eighteen, more than three years after her death. The prosecution argued that Michael strangled Sarah using both of his hands and a ligature.

52:02 Their case centered on four main pillars. First, the medical evidence contradicted the theory that Sarah died by hanging. The hose in question was one inch thick, while the ligature marks on her neck were only three eighths of an inch wide. There were multiple areas of trauma on her neck, including injuries consistent with manual strangulation. Second, Michael's behavior and conflicting statements raised suspicion. He gave varying accounts of what happened that evening. The condition of Sarah's body cold to the touch, with lividity already setting in cast doubt on his timeline. The injury to his lip was inconsistent with his claim that it came from performing CPR. Medical experts testified that they had never seen such an injury result from resuscitation efforts, and after Sarah's cremation, Michael failed to pick up her ashes for six months, something prosecutors portrayed as callous and indicative of guilt. Third, the state presented evidence of a violent struggle. The broken sunglasses, the torn fingernail, the bruise around Sarah's eye, and the abrasions on her legs and foot all signs of an altercation.

53:12 I was trying to picture this in my mind. He was. I think he was driving the car and she was in the passenger seat, and you know, the injury to her eye, and the sunglasses were broken on the left side. True, he had abrasions on his left knuckles, so he could just picture him, you know, reaching across and punching her. And Fourth, the prosecution argued that Michael had a clear motive. The couple faced severe financial stress, their relationship had grown increasingly hostile, as shown by their text messages. Both had been drinking heavily that day, and toxicology suggested recent cocaine use. The defense countered by insisting that Sarah's death was either a tragic accident or a suicide, and that the state had failed to prove otherwise. They emphasized that the Berkeley County Corner had initially been unable to determine the manner of death, arguing that even trained professionals had struggled to reach a conclusion. Witnesses testified that there were no visible signs of violence in the Caluchi's marriage. The defense said that Sarah's depression, impulsivity, intoxication, and history of drug use made suicide a plausible explanation. Michael's injuries, they argued, were consistent with the distraught husband trying to save his wife, scraping his knuckles an arm on the pavement while moving her body, and attempting CPR. As for the discrepancy between the hose's diameter and the narrow ligature marks, the defense claimed that only part of the hose needed to press against the skin to create those marks. It didn't require full contact to leave an impression. Michael's attorney, Andy Savage,

54:48 known for his theatrical courtroom style, dramatically demonstrated his point by wrapping a hose around his own neck and tightening it until his face turned red, showing how he believed Sarah could have done the same. Savage also played a video of his wife, who was roughly Sarah's size, squeezing through the narrow gap between the fence and the building, wearing the same dress that Sarah had worn. It was intended to counter the prosecution's argument that Sarah couldn't have fit through and that Michael must have opened the gate, dragged her back and strangled her. Michael's attorney is Andy Savage. Guy. He almost came across as like a clown, but I think he was very effective as an attorney. But he did a lot of like these kind of outlandish sort of demonstrations in the court room. The video of him pulling this hoys around his neck, it's really like this.

55:36 Would be really jarring for the jury, I think, Yeah, it's and performative. Yeah. Well in the video too, like dressing his wife in the same dress that Sarah was wearing that night. It served no purpose other than to be kind of inflammatory I think for the j Yeah. In the end, the jury was divided. Half believe the prosecution had failed to meet its burden of proof, the other half believed Michael Calucci had killed his wife. The deadlock forced the judge to declare a mistrial. Oh oh gosh, In August twenty nineteen, while Michael Calucchi was free on bond and awaiting a new trial, Charleston police were called to an apartment complex by his girlfriend, a woman he had begun dating not long after Sarah's death. She told officers that a few days earlier, she and Michael had gotten into a physical altercation, during which he picked her up and threw her to the ground, breaking her arm.

56:29 The injury required surgery at the hospital. However, she told doctors that she had fallen down a flight of stairs. When police interviewed her, they weren't sure what to make of her story. She appeared confused and inconsistent about the details. She had a history of substance abuse, and said she was on medication that made it difficult for her to think clearly. At first, she declined to press charges, but three months later she changed her mind and decided she wanted to move forward. Even so, there was no record that Michael Calucci was ever charged or even interviewed by police regarding this incident. So with another example of just speculating this, Yeah, he just somehow got by with these things, and yeah, it's really not cool. It took years before Michael Calucci's retrial was finally scheduled for June twenty twenty five, but just days before jury selection was set to begin, the defense filed a bombshell motion accusing the prosecution of a Brady violation the failure to disclose evidence favorable to the defense.

57:34 According to the motion, the state had been in possession of evidence for nearly a decade indicating that Sarah herself had expressed suicidal thoughts, specifically by hanging. In the days before her death. Sarah's mother, Barbara Moore, had told sled's lead investigator David Owen that she visited her daughter shortly before she died. When Barbara arrived, she found Sarah surrounded by beer cans sobbing uncontrollably. Sarah told her that she wanted to hang herself and that the only reason she hadn't done it was because of her children. Barbara said she was so alarmed at the time that she considered having Sarah hospitalized. The account was never disclosed to the grand jury that indicted Michael Calucci. It was not shared with the defense before the first trial, and jurors and expert witnesses were never informed of it. The defense only learned of the statement in June twenty twenty five as they prepared for the second trial. In a dramatic ruling on June seventeenth, twenty twenty five, South Carolina Circuit Court Judge Roger Young sided with the defense. He wrote, this court believes our courts should demand better from the state.

58:41 To simply allow this trial to go forward with so many witnesses, such as pathologists, having been denied the opportunity to have this critical knowledge available to them when that material is fresh, amounts to a foul with a harm. Calucci's defense team asked the court to dismiss the indictment with prejudice, which would have barred the state from trying him again. Judge Young did dismiss the indictment, but without prejudice. He explained, this is an unusual case and it requires an unusual remedy. As of now, it's unclear whether Michael Calucci will be re indicted or face another trial. By the way, this wasn't the first time investigator David Owen's credibility had been questioned in a high profile case. During the Elk Murdau trial, Owen admitted that he gave incorrect information to a grand jury, telling them that the T shirt murda war the night his wife and son were killed was stained with human blood. Prosecutors later conceded that there was no human blood on the shirt. Do you remember that at all?

59:43 Yeah, I'm very angry right now. Are you furious? Yeah? It really is very frustrating when things like this happen. Just a failure, failure of the system. Absolutely. I haven't been able to find out much about Michael's daughter, Providence Milan klue Ucci. She would be twenty or twenty one now. The only thing I've found is that she made the Dean's list in the fall twenty twenty four semester at University of South Carolina Salcahatchie. She's been through a lot, and we certainly hope that she's doing well. I do have more of an update on Sarah's daughter, Bishop. She has also been through a lot. She lost her birth father, Michael Vieira, than her mother, Sarah, and finally the man who had adopted her, Michael Calucci. She hasn't spoken to him in years. When Bishop was in eighth grade, she started doing photography for fun. Now twenty two, she has her own photography business, taking pictures for her old school, Northwood Academy, as well as Caine Bay Living magazine, and she does family photography as well. She got married in twenty twenty four to a guy that she met five years earlier when she was sixteen. Bishop was interviewed on the Cup of Justice podcast in June twenty twenty five.

1:00:56 She talked about her memories and how she was first told that her mother's death was an accident, then was later told by Michael that Sarah had died by suicide. Once she was finally in Barbara and Ronnie Moore's custody, she started learning more about the case and now firmly believes that Michael Calucci killed her mom. In recent years, she's become much more active in pushing the Attorney General to get the case back before a grand jury and hopefully reindict Michael Calucci. A few years ago, she got a tattoo. It's her mom's handwriting with the words until then, love you beautiful Mama. It's from an elementary school yearbook, one of the last that her mom signed before she died.

1:01:37 In the interview, I listened it sounds like Bishop is a wonderful person, and it sounds like she is really doing much better than you could expect after all that she's been through. So yeah, rest in peace, Sarah. I have a few questions that I would like to talk over with you. Do you think that there is any chance that Sarah died by suicide? No, I don't believe that she did. But I'm always she's going to commit suicide while Michael is waiting in the car. That makes no sense, right, No, I agree, broad Daylight. No. I just want to say that when I go into these cases where it's a question of suicide versus being killed, I'm always trying. I always try to be open minded that when people do die by suicide, sometimes it doesn't make any sense. But I completely agree with you in this case, there's no way I can get around the circumstances and believe that she did.

1:02:32 So maddening that he walks free among us, It really is. Do you think that the inconsistencies in Michael's statements were signs of guilt or could they be just the confusion of someone in shock. No. I think he was definitely guilty, and I think he was trying to weave this narrative. Yeah, I think when he first told the police, oh, I was sitting in the car for thirty minutes, he was trying to basically make it seem plausible that. And what man, I'm I'm sorry, I'm just very angry to Yeah, what man is going to sit in the car for thirty minutes and wait for their wife to do anything? Right? Yeah, she was like, you would either be worried or you'd be like, oh, come on, what is taking you so long? Just doesn't make sense that he would have sat there for you know.

1:03:18 The whole thing doesn't make sense. And the fact that his car like literally twenty feet away on a clear it wasn't dark yet, it was it was evening, but it was early evening. Wasn't going to catch that out of the corner of your eye, you know, Yeah, whatever. Yeah, it just the whole thing makes no sense at all. Do you think that the judge was right to dismiss the indictment because of the Brady violation, even though that means that Sarah's death may never get a final verdict. That's a tough one. I'm not really sure. What do you think. I think it was from a legal perspective, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like the right decision. You can't keep something like that from the way, is. That evidence a smoking gun though? Like it No, definitely not a smoking gun, but potent exculpatory.

1:04:01 It would have given the defense something to say. Look, she was talking about this a couple of days a few days before. So even though it sucks, I mean, I think it really is gonna not help in the search for justice for Sarah. Yeah, but I do think legally it was the right call. And by the way, Bishop in her interview she said the same thing, like she wants justice for her mom more than anything, and she thinks Michael killed Sarah. But she also said, you know, it really was the right call from a legal perspective. It shouldn't have been, you know, all the information should be out there. It's hard because I think it's horrible that he hasn't been retried yet. I would just really like to see him be put to justice.

1:04:45 I would too. I really hope that they retry him. I wonder if they will though, because you know, with the first trial ending in a hung jury and now with this coming out, you know, I wonder if they're going to just drop it, which would really stink. Because he's just a really, really icky guy. He is a really icky guy, and he's yeah, he's out there walking free with you know, nothing hanging over his head. And his mom has passed away and Evo has passed away, so he probably has more money. And well this, I'm not sure what happened to the estate. I'm guessing you don't quite know either. I don't know the state would have been divided among. Ev had Evil had five kids of his own, and then Michael and his brother were his step kids. So yeah, I'm not sure how that all, you know, played out.

1:05:30 But he probably got some money of it, I would think. But he also had so many lawsuits against him that any money that he would have gotten from the estate might have just been true. And a guy like Michael, just from what I've learned about him so far, he's he's going to keep getting in debt, like he's just you know, not very smart about the way. You know, he was always in that too, that's true. Yeah, that doesn't help. Do you know what happened to the jewelry business? Is it still there? I don't know. I know, the like I looked on Google maps at the Gold standard where she died. That is closed down. It's still the building is still there, but I think it's empty at this point. So quick Google tells me that there is still a Kuluchi's Jewelers. But that was Michael's store, wasn't it. Evo's store was the jewelry factory.

1:06:16 Yeah, but I suspect they were like related because I think I think Evo still had an ownership stake. I think his daughter was involved, so I think maybe maybe his daughter is running that now. I don't know, right, it doesn't mean that the family still owns it looks like maybe someone named Stefan is running it. Okay, maybe one of Evo's other children. Yeah, and you can get cash for gold there still. Oh, good to know, Good to know. I have one last question for you. When I was going through the text messages that Sarah sent to Michael, in a couple of them, she blames him for turning her into something else, Like she says, I hope you're happy with the way you found me and the person you have molded me into, with your controlling ways. And it brought a kind of a question in my mind of like how much responsibility does a partner bear for the ways their behavior changes the person that they're with. Like, can someone truly mold their partner into a different person or do they just bring out what's already there.

1:07:13 I think that's a fair question. But yeah, I think people change for their partners all the time and allow themselves to be molded into something that they don't want to be. But I think in this case it's about the addiction. Yeah, So, like Sarah might have been on a better path until she met Michael and that's when they started using together. Yeah, and that sounds like it was their biggest downfall. Yeah, I think you're probably right. You mentioned earlier when we were off the air that you believed you had read after her second husband, Michael Via died that she cleaned herself up. I hadn't found that, but that makes sense to me that the way that he died, being on like several drugs, that maybe she took that as an opportunity to try to get herself straight, and then with Michael she ended up being back drinking a lot and doing drugs. So it was probably a bad, bad When.

1:08:02 I was doing the initial research to her family, seemed her parents seemed particularly loving and kind, and supportive to her. Yeah, I mean that. Was really generous. Yeah, definitely. Well, I certainly hope that Michael Kolucci is retried and there is justice for Sarah. Agreed before we go, I thought we could have some more boiled peanuts. Do you want some more boiled peanuts? Those were so bad And I'm not even being dramatic. They were really bad because they were they expanded in this shell. Yeah. Really, I don't know what happened it was. They were really We're probably.

1:08:46 Going to anger some people in South Carolina, but I'm sure they I'm sure the ones in the can are very different than what you get when you buy them there. But that was pretty bad. I'm not going to make you eat more of those. Okay, Well, you can't make me do anything. I made you like a super nice dinner. I made spaghetti and meatballs and homemade French bread. So yeah, you might not get it now. Well, I sure hope you change your mind. I do have a little quiz for you that I love, A quiz I think our listeners will enjoy playing along with as well. If you weren't around in the eighties or nineties, though, you probably should just sign off now because. Are you talking to me? Because I am a child I was a child bride.

1:09:29 So what I've put together here are some sounds from iconic kind of sounds from the eighties and nineties, sound effects things like that, and you have to tell me what these sounds are. Okay, the first one is going to be American line. How did you know that? Yes, you've got mayo. I was going to start you off with a softball and. Easy it was, you know, that was definitely a sound of. That's crazy that you knew. That was the first one, though. The second one, I'm just kidding. Okay, Well, here is the second one.

1:10:09 That was the dialing of a rotary phone. It's shocking how many times you would get a wrong number. Oh yeah, you get like six digits in and then you do the wrong one, like start over again. It's like a lot of work. All right, here's the next one. Mm hmmm. I didn't know this one. Oh I know this one. Yeah. It's Simon, Yeah, Simon, Simon, Simon, or it's just Simon. That's the game where you. Had to It was huge. I think it was really big. It was like bigger than a dinner play probably in its original. Yeah, and it was like just a memory game, right. It would light up in and you had.

1:10:51 To do the blue, red, blue, green. Yeah. I think you're going to recognize this one kind of related to the American we Oh. Yeah, it was a modem. That's a classic sound. It took like, it took a while. Sometimes I've been told I don't know. Because you're too young. But it was paint those Yeah, those were painful days. But we didn't know it. We didn't know any different, so you know. We did that. We would get definitely annoyed. I remember buying my first motive. Yeah. No one will likely get this, but I remember buying a forty eight hundred modem because I was like, I would never need a faster modem than that, Like that's the fastest there is. What that means it was at the time, it was kind of fast. All right, here's the next one. I think you're going to feel good about this one.

1:11:49 My favorite, my favorite game of all time. Pac Man. Yes, I don't know if it's Miss pac Man. I think that was pac Man. Yeah, all right, here's another one, also one that I did not know because I was unfamiliar with this. I don't know it off the top of my Headmagotchi. Do you remember those? Oh? Our kids had those? Yeah? I never had one when when I was younger. I guess I was probably an adult. Bay, Yeah, I think you were an adult. But then, all right, here this one I love. This is a classic. Oh boy, this also took forever in a day, the dot Matrix printer.

1:12:33 Right, that's right, all right. One last one for you. This one's subtle, so you need to listen very hard. Okay, I think I'm too young for that one. I believe that is a VCR. The VHSJA popped in or yeah, ejected from. Well, thanks for making me feel like a dinosaur. It is funny how some of those sounds can just like take yeah they really are. Yeah, you didn't think about it at the time, but they yeah, they really are. Well. I hope you all enjoyed that quiz as well. One last thing before we go. We sometimes talk about when people post on Reddit and they mentioned us, which we really appreciate so much when people mention we do love Mary Kill on Reddit or Facebook or wherever you mention it.

1:13:21 There was a post a couple of weeks ago that I thought was kind of funny. Somebody posted asking what true crime podcasts music perfectly compliments the subject matter, and somebody answered, I know co host Tina doesn't like it, but I personally love the intro music for love Mary kill Well. It is true that I do not love our theme song, but I'm glad you guys do. And I'm glad you do. I see a comment from someone recently, I can't remember where it was, if it was email or somewhere else, that someone said they agreed with you and they really would love it if we reconsidered our themail. I would too, but it's okay. I believe in democracy and majority roles and I think you've tried. You've tried, and that's okay. But whenever I hear it, I'm like, oh, cringe.

1:14:09 I hate it, But I mean, I agree it does fit the theme of our show, but I feel like it doesn't fit me. I understand. Yeah, Well, we'd love to hear what you guys think about our episodes. If you're listening on Spotify right now, leave us a comment. We always love to read your comments. And I think you took off the filter, So if you want to say something mean, go for it before you would read through the comments and yeah. I was moderating them, and yeah, but. I never go for it. Go for it. This weekend, while you were watching sports, I watched Nobody Wants This on Netflix with Kristin Bell and Adam Brody. I am late to the game. Everyone has already watched this, but I really enjoyed it. But Kristin Bell and her sister are podcasters on the show. Really and someone was saying something to Kristin Bell about leaving her a negative review if they were mad at her, and she said, any interaction is engagement and that is good for us.

1:15:05 Wow, that's very philosophical, very evolved. Well, I will say a couple and a year ago or so, somebody made a Reddit post about love Mary Kill and it was pretty negative. I actually responded to it, which I shouldn't have done. Anyway, it was very negative. But since then a lot of people have responded to that post saying, hey, I found you guys because of this post, and I love you. So that's great. I think you know there is I'll be positive and that's it's fine. I have definitely become a lot more of I don't know what's the word. I just feel like, it's okay if not everyone loves your podcast. Yeah, for sure, because people want different things out of a podcast. It's totally fine. But anyway, we appreciate you guys so much for listening. We love you all, and we just are so grateful that you keep listening week after week. Please follow, subscribe, like review, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And don't forget about our YouTube channel that we always forget to promote.

1:16:02 Yes, and consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash love Mary Kill. We have one tier five dollars a month, and for that you get early ad free access plus a monthly bonus episode. Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife