Susan and Josh Powell - Part 1

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Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm
Rich. And if there's one thing we've

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learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like

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killing your wife and sundays you'll feel
like killing your husband. Welcome to love,

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Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey
Tina. How are you? I

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am phenomenal? How are you?
Oh? Wow, I'm great. I'm

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great. I'm a little sleepy.
Why I've been up a little late working

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on this Susan and Josh Powell case. You've been working really really and you

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picked up a little slack, So
that's thank you for doing that. It's

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taken me like weeks to do this
one. Yeah. So I am just

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going to run right into snack because
it's hot and ready and I'm hungry too.

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So you are? I am at
a salad for lunch? You know?

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Oh this is not a salad?
Good? This is it's uh pancakes.

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Oh wow, it was with today's
episode pancakes and apples apple pie filling.

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You're supposed to put on top.
I didn't put on top yet.

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You can if you want, or
you can dip them. Okay, do

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you want to try it? Yeah? I'm excited to try it. So

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what did you think they were delicious? Do you want to just sit here

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and eat pancakes and talk and not
talk about it and not do the podcast

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today? Okay, just have a
pancake episode. So I haven't done this

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to you in a while, but
I kind of played a dirty trick on

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you. Oh boy, do you
know where I'm going with this? I

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don't know. You put some weird
ingredient and you put cream cheese in the

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pancakes. Cheese. You got me, I got you. I would have

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not known there was cream cheese.
The recipe probably makes twelve pancakes. I

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only made four, and there's only
four ounces of cream cheese and it,

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so it's not an overwhelming amount of
cream cheese. I think it just adds

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a nice taste. Well, I
was going to ask you if those were

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just classic pancakes. So they did
taste a little bit different to me than

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just a typical pancakes. And they're
really fluffy. Yeah. Yeah, it

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was a lot of baking powder in
them. Yeah, it was good that

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I like the apple filling was It's
not what I would have picked. But

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you'll find out in a few minutes
why it had to be apple filling.

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Today. Alrighty, So I said
that we would never cover this case because

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it's so huge, we could.
We could do twenty parts on it.

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Yeah, like the Cold podcast,
which I had listened to. That was

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one of the first true crime podcasts
that I had ever listened to. Yeah,

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yeah, And I think I made
you listen to this. I'm like,

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oh, this is so good.
You didn't make me listen to it?

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Okay, I'm sorry I didn't.
I didn't force you, but I

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think I highly recommend it. Yes, and it is phenomenal. So if

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you enjoy our episode, I encourage
you to go listen to Dave Colly's work.

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I think there's like twenty episodes and
I went back and listened to most

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of them. Kind of funny though
they talk kind of slowly in Utah.

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I think, I don't know,
maybe it was just the podcast, but

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I was able to listen to it
on one and a half speed and didn't

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I play it for you? And
its marble speaking kind of. But this

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case was recommended to us by our
friend Desi from the Dead podcast. Dosi

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is my podcast bestie. She loves
all things supernatural and spooky and cowboys who

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sing, So please go give DESI
a listen all cowboys Son, Well,

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she likes sus kind of fuck okay, but this is her Roman Empire case

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and she really wanted us to cover
it. So here we are alrighty,

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As consumers of true crime, we
joke a lot about who would help you

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bury a body? Good friends help
you bury the body, but best friends

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don't ask why and bring their own
shovel. But if it really came down

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to it, would you, And
I'm asking you, would you help a

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friend or relative bury a body and
never speak of it again? Realistically?

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No, No, there's nobody I
would help with. The only circumstance I

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could think of where I would is
if the person that we were burying was

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truly evil and the law wasn't going
to take care of it. That's the

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only I can't even imagine that happening. But no, how about you,

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Well, of course I wouldn't.
You're recording me right now. I'm not

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going to admit it on air.
I pose that question to you because in

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today's case, we're not sure whether
Josh had help disposing of a body or

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not. Okay, I listened to
the cold podcast, but I and I

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remember the basic outline of the case, but I don't remember a lot of

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details, so we're going to go
pretty deep, but not as deep as

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cold, of course. Debbie Calledwell, a middle aged wife and mother,

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owned and operated Daydreams and Fun Things
childcare out of her home in West Valley

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City, Utah. She spent long
hours each day with the children in her

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care and love them like her own. Charlie Powell for and his little brother

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Braden to, who had been with
Debbi four a year and a half.

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Debbie adored the boys and their mother, twenty eight year old Susan Powell,

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but she could barely tolerate their father, Josh thirty four. She found Josh

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rude off, putting, a know
it all and a tightwad, and she

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hated how he treated Susan. Susan
and Debbie were neighbors and close friends.

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Susan often confided in Debbie how frustrated
she was with Josh and the state of

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their marriage. On the morning of
December seventh, two thousand and nine,

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Debbie grew concerned when Charlie and Braden
hadn't been dropped off. Susan always called

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to let her know if they were
running late. The boys were usually dropped

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off by six thirty a m.
Susan started work at seven. Debbie tried

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calling Susan and Josh's cell phones,
but got no answer. After Debbie dropped

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her older charges off at school,
she decided to drive by the Powell's house

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to check on them around nine a
m. Three inches of fresh snow had

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blanketed West Valley City the night before, but as she walked up to the

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house, Debbie didn't see any fresh
footprints or tire tracks in the newly fallen

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snow. No one appeared to be
at home. Debbi grew concerned. She

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then made a series of phone calls
from her cell phone. First, she

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called the Wells Fargo Bank, where
Susan worked as a stockbroker. Debby learned

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that Susan had not shown up for
work that morning, and she also failed

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to call in sick. Next,
Debbie called Josh's place of work, Aspen

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Distribution, a trucking company where he
worked as a computer programmer. Josh wasn't

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at work either, and had also
failed to call to notify them of his

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absence. Debbie's fears escalated that something
was seriously wrong. She feared the Powells

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could have had a gas or carbon
monoxide leak inside their house. She called

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Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister in emergency
contact for the boys, to see if

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she knew where the family might be. Jennifer, her husband Kirk, and

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their five children lived fifteen minutes away
in West Jordan, Utah. Debbi hoped

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the Powells had decided to take a
last minute trip. Anne had forgotten to

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tell anyone, but she knew that
was highly unlikely. Jennifer and her mom,

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Terry, drove to Susan and Josh's
house. Terry had been divorced from

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her husband, Steve Powell for years
she lived with Jennifer and her family.

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Jennifer and Terry weren't able to reach
Susan or Josh on their cell phones either.

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Their phones appeared to have been turned
off. Their calls went straight to

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voicemail. When no one answered the
door, Terry called the West Valley City

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Police Department. When they arrived,
Jennifer gave the police permission to break a

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window. As they entered the house, the officers were met with loud music

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from the radio. Two box vans
turned on high were pointed at the carpet,

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and love seat in the living room, both of which appeared to have

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been recently shampooed. Jennifer went to
the bird's cage. She knew that if

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the bird was alive, then Susan, Josh, and the boys could not

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have died from carbon monoxide poisoning either. She was relieved to find the bird

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alive when she peered into its cage. Susan and Josh loved that bird.

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They had called at their first baby
when they got it soon after they were

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married eight years earlier. But when
Jennifer walked upstairs to the bedrooms she found

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Susan's purse, keys, and credit
cards. She became worried. Again.

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We've had this in a few cases
where the purse is there, and I

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think a lot of times men forget
to get rid of the purse. Yes,

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because if you're going to get rid
of your wife, you have to

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get rid of the purse too,
because women don't normally leave home without their

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purse. All right, why am
I giving this? I was going to

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ask, But you know, the
red boots that Susan wore daily in the

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snow a Utah weather were by the
front door. The house was tidy,

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There was no evidence of a break
in or a struggle, and no sign

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of forest entry. The Powell's only
vehicle, a mini van, was missing

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from the garage. The garage floor
was dry because of the recent snow,

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The floor would have been wet if
they had come and gone within the past

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twelve hours. On Saturday night,
Josh had won a new flip camera at

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his company's Christmas party, which he
was very excited about. Josh loved gadgets.

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He was known to be spontaneous.
Jennifer and Terry thought he might have

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gone to take pictures of the snow
and slid off the road somewhere. Police

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immediately issued a be on the lookout
for the Powell's two thousand and five light

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blue Chrysler Town and Country Van.
After a quick search, the West Valley

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Police Department didn't find as much as
a speeding ticket for Susan or Josh.

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The police had never been called to
their house for a domestic violence incident.

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Jennifer began making phone calls. First, she called Chuck and Judy Cox,

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Susan's mother and father. They lived
nine hundred miles away in Powallup, Washington.

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Next, she called her father,
Stephen Powell, who also lived in

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Powallop. Steve is a major player
in this case, as you'll come to

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find out, as historian Flipfolds,
he was creepy and a delusional sexual predator

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who was obsessed with Susan. But
more on Steve later, Jennifer called several

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of Susan's church friends to see if
anyone knew where the four Powells might be.

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No one had seen or heard from
them. But when Jennifer reached Jovanna

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Owings on the phone, she told
her that she had seen Susan at church

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the day before. After TI,
she went to the Powell home to crochet

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with Susan. Josh had even made
dinner for Susan and Jovanna while they crocheted.

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Jennifer was baffled at this. Josh
never cooked. Jovanna called Josh late

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on Monday afternoon. It was the
first call he had answered all day.

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In a terse, motherly tone,
she asked, Josh, where are you?

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What are you doing? The police
are looking for you. Josh said

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he was driving around with the boys. He said they'd been camping. Remember

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they're in a major weather event.
It's been snowing for days here in Utah.

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And it's been super cold too.
Yeah, some people like to camp

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in that sort of weather, but
I don't. Jovanna was incredulous. She

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asked for Susan was Josh said that
she was at work. Jovanna chastised him,

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quote, we both know she's not
there, Josh. She told Josh

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that he needed to come home immediately
and explain himself. Josh spent the next

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two hours driving around aimlessly. Before
he went home, he stopped at a

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self served car wash and thoroughly cleaned
the van. That's not suspicious at all.

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The roads were a mess from the
snow, so he cleaned the van

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in vain. Unless there was something
he was trying to hide or wash away.

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Josh was in no hurry to go
home and talk to the West Valley

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City Police Department. He became an
expert in evading them in the months to

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come. Chuck and Judy Cox met
in high school. Judy was member of

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the Mormon Church when they started dating, Chuck joined the church as well.

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After high school, Chuck spent six
years in the Air Force and learned to

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fly. Susan Marie Cox was born
in New Mexico at the Holloman Air Force

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base on October sixteenth, nineteen eighty
one, the third of four daughters to

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Chuck and Judy, Mary, Denise, Susan, and Marie. Chuck was

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a ranking staff sergeant in the Air
Traffic Control Tower. After leaving the Air

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Force, the Cox family moved to
Alaska, Van, Vancouver, Washington,

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and finally to Powallup, Washington.
How can you say Vancouver? Are you

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referring to the city in Canada?
No, there is a Vancouver washing As

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well as a civilian, Chuck worked
as an investigator for the FAA. Everyone

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in the Cox family was musical.
They all sang and played instruments. Susan

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shared a bedroom with her sister Denise. They were very close. Both girls

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were animal lovers. They especially loved
birds. At one time they had twenty

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seven birds in their bedroom. Oh
my parakeets, finches, and one cockatoo.

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I couldn't believe that twenty seven.
I thought it was like, wasn't

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right. But then there was something
about how Susan's mom made them clean the

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bird cages twice a day, so
they didn't enjoy that part of it,

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but they really loved their birds.
Susan loved playing beauty shop with her sisters

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and mother and doing their hair,
nails, and makeup. She dreamed of

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opening a salon one day. Susan
was more and bubbly with a bright smile.

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She had a magnetic personality and made
friends easily. Chuck and Judy Cox

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had their ups and downs over the
years, but at the time of Susan's

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disappearance, they had been married thirty
four years. They loved their family and

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were very proud of all of their
daughters. Steve Powell went on a Mormon

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mission to Argentina. His family was
dysfunctional and he couldn't wait to get away.

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As a child, Steve's parents divorced
and had a lengthy custody battle.

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He and his siblings were used as
pawns in the divorce. Steve's parents played

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games with each other. More than
once. One of them would move and

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hide the children from the other and
not say where they were living. They

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called it the kidnap game. Hmm, that's a fun game. That's horrible

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for the kids, Yeah, for
sure. When Steve returned to the US

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after his mission, he was twenty
three years old. Steve soon met and

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married eighteen year old Terka. I
have heard her called different things. I

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think her birth name was Terarika.
In the cold podcast they refer to her

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as Teresa. In the book I
read for the case, they call her

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Terry. Okay, so I'm we're
using Terry. Go with Terry. We're

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going with Terry, all right.
They had five children in quick succession,

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Jennifer, josh Johnny, Mike,
and Elina. Joshua Stephen was born on

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January twentieth, nineteen seventy six,
in Spokane, Washington. The family later

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settled in Ogden, Utah. The
young couple struggled to make ends meet.

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Steve worked the night shift stocking shelves
at a grocery store, while Terry stayed

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home with the children. Steve believed
in traditional gender roles. The Powells were

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once happy, but Steve transformed over
the years to be anti government, anti

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church, and raised his children to
question authority. He was a controlling and

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abusive husband to Terry. The Powell
household was chaotic and dysfunctional. In nineteen

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ninety two, after nineteen years of
marriage, when josh was sixteen, Terry

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filed for divorce after she contracted an
STI and Steve told her that he wanted

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a polygamous marriage, he had fallen
in love with another woman. Terry wanted

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no part of that lifestyle. Josh
and most of his siblings continued to live

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with Steve, who had left the
Mormon Church. Steve could not stand the

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Mormon Church and tried to turn his
children against the religion too. The Powell's

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divorce was contentious. Steve accused Terry
of practicing witchcraft and engaging in the occult.

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There was no evidence of this.
Terry accused Steve of being obsessed with

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pornography and openly discussing sex with their
young children. He kept hardcore porn in

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their home and shared it with their
sons. Terry once found pornography in the

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bedroom of eight year old Michael.
When confronted by Terry about his pornography fixation,

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Steve said, quote, people are
just animals anyway. We ought to

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be able to have sex with anyone
anytime we please unquote. In one of

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his journals, Steve admitted that he
was attracted to his oldest daughter, Jennifer.

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He wrote that sometimes she walked around
in a T shirt and underwear.

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It drove him nuts. He said, oh God, he's going to make

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you feel so nauseous and horrible.
Yeah, he's one of, probably one

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of the worst people we've covered.
Yeah, Steve was disrespectful to Terry and

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other women. She worried that he
was passing his attitude on to their sons.

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She wrote in the divorce documents,
quote, for those who will listen

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to Steve as the older boys have, he seems to have a powerful way

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of controlling. I know that Steve
is persuasive in a most harmful, deliberate

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way. Steve's manipulation of the kid's
thoughts and emotions is terribly difficult to deal

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with. They grouped together and stir
each other up to almost a fever pitch

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at times. Unquote, Steve was
a permissive parent, too busy with his

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hobbies to worry about the kids.
He won their favor by buying them gifts

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and setting no boundaries. There were
no bedtimes or curfews. After the two

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year long divorce was finalized, the
children, except Jennifer, who was in

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college, lived with Steve. He
was a master manipulator and had turned the

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children against their mother. Terry tried
to fight for custody of Mike and Elena.

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The two youngest children, Josh and
Johnny were too far gone, but

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Steve had more resources. Terry was
left destitute after the divorce and had little

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contact with her children. Josh,
Johnny, Michael, and Elena were one

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hundred percent loyal to their father.
Josh was a troubled teenager. When he

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was thirteen, he threatened Terry with
a butcher knife. The boys were encouraged

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by Steve to belittle and disrespect her. When Elena was four, Josh killed

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her gerbils and made her touch their
blood. Ugh He was twice arrested for

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00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:40.119
shoplifting and was a suspect in an
arson case. He attempted to take his

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own life when he was fourteen by
hanging himself. When Terry saw the red

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abrasions on his neck, she made
him go to counseling. After high school,

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despite being an average student, Josh
attended Pierce College, a community college

250
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in Pualap, where he first focused
on architecture. Later, he had a

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brief flirtation with becoming an actor,
but then transferred to the University of Washington

252
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.279
and majored in business. While in
college, Josh met his first long term

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girlfriend, Katherine, who was also
Mormon. Despite the protests from their parents,

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they moved in together while still students. Josh always had a cash flow

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00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.000
problem. He never kept a job
for long. Catherine applied for a student

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loan at Josh's urging. When the
check came, Josh deposited it into his

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account. Twenty years later, Catherine
was still paying the debt off. That's

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00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:37.160
horrible. That is yeah, really
horrible. Their relationship lasted two years until

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she felt Josh was becoming too controlling
and possessive. He was selfish and lacked

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focus. Catherine left to visit her
family and never returned. She told Josh

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00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.640
to put her belongings in storage.
She must have really wanted to get out

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of that relationship badly to leave all
her stuff behind. Well, and the

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debt issue. I don't think she
ever pursued it with she just paid for

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00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:06.480
it. Yeah, good for her
for getting out. During Josh's college years,

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his faith wavered, but he was
always drawn back to the church.

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He was most comfortable with other Mormons, although he joined a Christian youth group

267
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for a time. The people were
warm and welcoming and didn't care that he

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was a Mormon. Josh and Steve
frequently fought during his college years. When

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they were fighting, Josh grew closer
to his mother and the Mormon religion.

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When Josh wasn't under Steve's influence,
he was more self aware and introspective.

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He could see how problematic his father's
worldviews were. Terry and Jennifer enjoyed this

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version of Josh. He was less
depressed and moody. Nineteen year old Susan

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00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.680
met twenty four year old Josh and
Tacoma, Washington at an LDS Singles event

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in the year two thousand. They
bonded over their love of birds. Josh

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had a parakeet that he took everywhere. How long do parakeets live for?

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Do you think twenty five? Just
a wild guess? It was written in

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00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.200
my script and you were reading it. But did you know that I didn't

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00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.279
realize that birds lived that long.
I did that. They began dating and

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00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:10.880
were a mismatched couple from the start. Susan was pretty and vivacious. Josh

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was odd and geeky, kind of
like Rigentina. Yeah. On the first

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00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.960
date, Susan and Josh went to
see the movie The Perfect Storm a little

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foreshadowing, and then they went to
suppling. Nice Josh, I'm sure used

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00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.519
to coupon. Josh could be mildly
charming and funny at times, but generally

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he was overbearing and liked to talk
about himself and his interests in his own

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00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.319
words. He once said, quote, I'm not as good a person.

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00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.160
I'm rather depressed, moody, irritable
when I get away from things that I

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00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.440
know are right. People find it
difficult to remain in my company for extended

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00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:49.279
periods of time. Susan has loved
every minute with me. She loves the

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things that other people cannot tolerate about
me. End quote, and it was

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00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.960
true. For Valentine's Day, Susan
wrote a list of one hundred and thirty

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00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.960
two things she loved most about him, including, you want to talk about

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00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.920
irrelevant topics until you've resolved the issues
of the world. You'll drive aimlessly.

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00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.720
You want children, You pray for
people. You show affection in public.

294
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You don't care what others think.
You love my family, get together occasions.

295
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.720
You watch friends with me for hours. You can be patient. You

296
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.759
let me wax you, you let
me wax you once n I did you

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00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.559
hold me in the middle of the
night. You calculate everything. You went

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00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.920
to church when you didn't feel like
it. It was worth it. You

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00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:38.559
paid tithing without question, You double
check locks. In the years to come,

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00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.960
Susan would come to despise some of
these things about Josh. He had

301
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.039
difficulty interpreting social cues, he would
talk too long without gauging the interest of

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00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.519
his audience, and it was hard
to get a word in. The Coxes

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00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.119
didn't care for Josh. They'd met
him years before when he'd showed up at

304
00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.839
their house one night to ask Susan's
older sister marry out. Harry wasn't home,

305
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.839
but Josh came in anyway, chatted
up Judy, and played their piano.

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00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.359
He didn't get the hint to leave
until Chuck told him it was time

307
00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:11.960
to go. When Susan and Josh
met again years later, Susan remembered him

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00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:17.279
from the piano playing incident. They
laughed over the shared memory. In a

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00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:21.359
journal entry from the time, Josh
remarked about how cute twelve year old Susan

310
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:26.079
was, but lamented she was too
young to date boy. Despite warning from

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00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.960
her family, sweet natured Susan began
dating Josh seriously in October two thousand.

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00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:36.920
Josh was head over heels in love
with Susan. I loved the scirl Susan

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Maury Cox. Every day I love
her more, I become more and more

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00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.000
certain that I want to be with
her, so I'm slow to warm up.

315
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:57.240
It's taken me a while to realize
that I do want to be with

316
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:04.279
her. Her Ever, he sounds
so creepy. He sounds like a wh

317
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:10.160
hear him talk. He reminds me
of Napoleon Dynamites brother. Oh yeah,

318
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.880
what's his name? Uh, Kip
Cat. She reminds me of Kip.

319
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:17.079
Yeah, kind of looks like Kip
too. Yeah, kind of pasty and

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00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:22.839
Josh loved Susan's nurturing manner and how
hard she worked. Susan attended cosmetology school

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00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.480
during the day and at night she
worked at the J. C. Penny

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00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.680
jewelry counter. Josh asked Susan for
help picking out a ring for his mother,

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00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.359
but it was a ring for Susan, an engagement ring. He asked

324
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.400
her to pay for the ring with
her employee discount, but he did pay

325
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:42.319
her back. Two months into the
relationship, they were engaged. After several

326
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:48.000
failed relationships and rejections, Josh must
have thought he won the lottery when Susan

327
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:52.440
agreed to marry him. When Susan's
father, Chuck Cox, learned about their

328
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.079
engagement, he called the bishop from
his church seeking advice. So he was

329
00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:00.920
asking the bishop's advice because he didn't
approve of the marriage right, and I

330
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.519
think the bishop said, let it
go. Let it go, they'll figure

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00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.640
it out. Judy encouraged Susan to
continue to date other people, but eventually

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00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:14.079
Chuck and Judy gave a tepid blessing. Josh was going to school, he

333
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.759
had a job and an apartment.
They rationalized, he couldn't be that bad.

334
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.319
Susan wasn't in a hurry to get
married, but Josh pressures her for

335
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.720
a quick wedding. On April sixth, two thousand and one, Susan and

336
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.319
Josh were married at the LDS Temple
in Lake Oswego, Oregon, in a

337
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.640
small ceremony with their friends and family
in attendance. So remember they started dating

338
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:38.799
in October and by April they're married. That's pretty quick. Their marriage was

339
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:44.160
sealed for eternity. Susan's three sisters
were her attendants, all dressed in purple.

340
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.880
Two of Josh's siblings, Jennifer and
Johnny, didn't attend the wedding,

341
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:53.240
Susan overheard Steve predict to Josh that
someday Susan would leave and divorce him a

342
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.839
guy. After their wedding, Susan
and Josh moved into an apartment, but

343
00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.599
money was tight and they weren't able
to make their rent payment. After they

344
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.480
were evicted, they moved in with
Steve Powell. Josh worked with his father

345
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:10.119
at an office supply store, selling, assembling, and delivering office furniture while

346
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.920
he was finishing his degree in business
administration. Susan was overjoyed when she learned

347
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.000
she was pregnant with their first baby
in two thousand and four. Charlie,

348
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.799
named for Susan's father, Chuck,
was born on January nineteenth, two thousand

349
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:27.359
and five. Chuck and Judy were
in town when Susan went into labor.

350
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.960
Josh was too busy working on his
computer, so her parents drove her to

351
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:37.279
the hospital and Josh showed up three
hours later. Wow Amazing Brayden was born

352
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.920
two years later on January second,
two thousand and seven, so the boy's

353
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.960
birthdays are within a couple of weeks
of each other, well and two years

354
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:51.119
and two weeks. Financial control is
a form of domestic abuse. In ninety

355
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.480
nine percent of domestic abuse cases,
there is some form of financial control.

356
00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.640
The abuser usually does this to limit
their partner's options and ability to the abuse

357
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:06.559
of situation. The abuser may do
one or more of the following restrict access

358
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:12.319
to funds and accounts, control employment, create debt, steal money, or

359
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:17.279
withhold money even for the most basic
needs. And Josh had all of these

360
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:22.119
to some extent. To Susan,
he kept extremely tight control of his family's

361
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.200
finances. Sometimes he refused to let
Susan use the car to get to work.

362
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.200
Josh sold their second car to save
money and bought Susan a bike and

363
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.519
took her about forty minutes in the
morning, sometimes in the dark, but

364
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.960
the way home took upwards of an
hour. Susan worked but wasn't allowed to

365
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.759
spend money, even though she was
often the only breadwinner in the family.

366
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.240
Josh was frequently unemployed. He had
difficulty keeping a job. Josh was untothered

367
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.640
and impulsive. He always thought something
bigger was on the horizon, and he

368
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:57.519
was too good to work at certain
jobs. Josh had crippling debt from his

369
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:04.319
college loans. At least figures,
and he never officially graduated. Josh constantly

370
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:08.519
complained about the cost of groceries.
He would give Susan twenty dollars a week

371
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.920
for groceries, but there was always
money for a new tool, computer,

372
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:18.079
or remote control car. At Charlie's
one year checkup, his pediatrician said that

373
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.359
he was mail nourished. Are you
saying twenty dollars a week is not enough

374
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:26.160
for groceries? I mean, that
was shocking to me that eighteen oh two.

375
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.200
Yeah, the family kept a garden
out of necessity, not as a

376
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.279
hobby or to teach the boys about
healthy eating. Sometimes Josh would not allow

377
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.839
Susan to go to the grocery store, and the garden was their only source

378
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.839
of food. However, the Pals
could always turn to the Mormon Church when

379
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:47.240
things were difficult financially. The food
bank was well stocked and generous. Parishioners

380
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.240
were asked to provide a service or
physical labor in exchange for food assistance,

381
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:55.759
and Susan was always happy to help
out, but Josh refused, which was

382
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.359
unheard of. Yeah in their community, Like you helped out, and Josh

383
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.839
just, yeah, he was pretty
lazy. Josh also withheld affection and sex

384
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:07.839
from Susan and rarely, if ever, told her that he loved her.

385
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.160
He complained whenever they had to spend
money, he dissuaded her from going to

386
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.400
the doctor or taking the children when
they were sick. However, Josh spent

387
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:22.039
money freely and frivolously on tools or
computers at will. Weeks before Christmas,

388
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.119
he spent nearly four hundred dollars on
a settling torch. What does one use

389
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.960
in a settling torch for weldingly guess? Josh often put Susan in awkward positions

390
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.640
with her friends. She asked them
frequently for rides or to borrow money,

391
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:40.839
or sometimes even food. Susan had
a beauty chair in the basement, and

392
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:42.720
she would offer to cut or color
her friend's hair to repay them for their

393
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:48.599
kindness. Josh wanted her to charge
them, but she refused. The Mormon

394
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.640
Church was an important part of Susan's
life. She was deeply devoted to her

395
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.079
faith, but church was also a
social outlet for her. Susan was an

396
00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:03.119
extrovert. Her relationship with Josh was
un fulfilling for many reasons. She needed

397
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:06.799
her friends both at work and at
church to help her through her difficult marriage.

398
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.759
Tithing wasn't optional at the church the
Powells attended. It was expected church

399
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.400
members would give ten percent of their
income. Josh was a fair weather Mormon

400
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.039
at beast and sometimes refused to tithe, and during these times, Susan couldn't

401
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:26.400
attend church. One thing Josh didn't
skimp on was life insurance. Of course,

402
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.640
even in the early years of their
marriage, when money was tight,

403
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.000
Josh purchased a policy on each of
them for five hundred thousand dollars, which

404
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.440
is that's a lot of money for
a family that's just getting by. Later,

405
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.279
he increased the coverage two one million
dollars for each of them and two

406
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.240
hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the
boys. So they were they had a

407
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:56.079
lot of insurance. Yep, we'll
be back after a break. Regardless of

408
00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.680
how tense things became, Susan was
determined to make their marriage work. She

409
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.960
and Josh were sealed for eternity as
far as she was concerned. But as

410
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:11.960
time passed and her relationship with Josh
worsened, Susan's resolve weakened. Friends and

411
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:15.480
family spurred her to leave Josh,
but she was afraid of what he'd do

412
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.599
if she left. The church encouraged
her to stay and work on her marriage.

413
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.880
Josh agreed to attend counseling sessions at
the church with an LDS counselor,

414
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.440
but Susan could tell Josh's heart wasn't
in it. He stopped going after a

415
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.400
few sessions. However, in the
weeks before her disappearance, Susan put her

416
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.480
foot down she was going to church. Susan began standing up for herself,

417
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:44.279
but she chose her battles carefully.
Tithing and attending church were two of the

418
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:48.000
things that Susan would no longer compromise
on. She even got Josh to attend

419
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.680
church with her a few times.
Oddly, in the weeks before her disappearance,

420
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.680
their marriage improved. He even told
Susan he loved her one day.

421
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.599
Josh began talking to his father several
times a week on the phone for hours

422
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.559
at a time. Their relationship weighed
heavily on Susan. She hated Steve,

423
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.759
and for good reason that we'll get
too soon. Steve was a bad influence

424
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.519
on Josh. Josh acted differently when
he talked to his father. Steve and

425
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:21.480
Josh's relationship had stops and starts over
the years, and Josh was a better

426
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:26.160
person when Steve wasn't constantly in his
ear. In a journal entry, Steve

427
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.759
Powell wrote, quote, Josh talked
on and on very openly about how he

428
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.680
would love to get rid of her. He is not attracted to her,

429
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.920
he said. He daydreams about having
someone come to his door to report that

430
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:44.039
she was killed by a drunk driver. Susan longed for a third child.

431
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.839
She had always dreamed of having a
daughter to share her love of girly things.

432
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.559
As bad as things got with Josh, she never gave up hope that

433
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:56.960
things could change. She was an
eternal optimist. However, in the summer

434
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.720
of two thousand and eight, Susan
contacted a divorce attorney. The attorney encouraged

435
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:06.759
Susan to document their home and possessions
before her husband caught on to the possibility

436
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.559
of having to dissolve their assets.
Susan made a forty five minute video of

437
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:16.160
their possessions as she walked through the
house. Today is Tuesday, July ninth,

438
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:22.480
twenty ninth, two thousand and eight, and we are in the sixty

439
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:27.880
two to fifty four West their Circle
house. This is me hi, sorry,

440
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:34.960
and it is can you see that? Eleven forty four am. And

441
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:40.000
I am documenting all our assets just
in case of any emergencies fire, flood,

442
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:49.519
damage, disputes. And we have
two Samsung monitors. And this is

443
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:54.680
Josh's computer and there's some type of
backup device and speakers. Here's the kind

444
00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:00.319
of pimping out stuff he's done to
his computer. He built it himself.

445
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:07.400
I think there's like five hard drive
something about giving raids. There's those for

446
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:15.160
all the computer geeks. And Josh
locked this, but this is all of

447
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:21.880
his files. Me locked. Those
are his files, and he bought expensive

448
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.519
stuff like these are. I think
this was like a couple of thousand dollars

449
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:34.160
of like sis graphic design templates by
stock layouts or something like that. All

450
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:38.319
right, here's our unfinished basement.
You bought three thousand pounds of wheat,

451
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:50.759
and these are buckets of wheat.
See this one whoops chemical free hard white

452
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:55.960
week with mint green gum and red
wheat with mint gums. So there's a

453
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.680
whole bunch of boxes of or buckets
of it. Here's a rigid saw.

454
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:05.559
I don't know the differences. I
think this is a chop saw. Oh,

455
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:10.679
there we go, says minor saw
utility vehicle msuv. Oh that's the

456
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:17.880
holding thing of it. And there
is a shop back. This is all

457
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:23.119
stuff bought in a year or less
through home depot on my credit. Josh

458
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:27.880
bought a lot of stuff and then
he had to bankrupt it, and then

459
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:32.119
he bought a little bit more on
my credit. Three thousand pounds of wheat.

460
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:36.440
Holy, that's a lot of wheat. That's a lot of wheat.

461
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:38.920
I don't know if everyone knows this
or not, but not all Mormons,

462
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:44.760
but a lot of Mormons keep up
to a year of food storage in their

463
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.800
home in case of emergency or disaster, which is probably not a bad idea,

464
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:54.400
but three thousand pounds of a lot. And also, that video went

465
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:59.360
on for forty five minutes as she
walked through the house, and they just

466
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.480
they had a lot stuff. They
did have so much stuff, tons of

467
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:07.679
computer equipment, tools, gadgets,
cameras, bikes, and even a three

468
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.519
hundred dollars meat grinder. I don't
know how we're not getting by without meat

469
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.480
brinder. Yeah. Susan put a
copy of the video in her safety deposit

470
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:22.239
box and gave a copy to her
friend Kursey Helwell for safekeeping. After she

471
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:25.239
had received a raise, Susan started
putting aside small amounts of money in a

472
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:30.199
separate account that she hoped Josh wouldn't
notice to start a life without him.

473
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.280
Several friends and coworkers were aware that
Susan was planning an escape. Josh had

474
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.840
warned Susan that he would make her
life miserable if she tried to leave,

475
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:44.719
and threatened her with a fierce custody
battle. He threatened her that she'd never

476
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:49.800
see her sons again, and she
believed him. On December seventh, two

477
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.719
thousand and nine, the last day
Susan was seen, Josh called his dad

478
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:58.039
just after noon to ask him for
his pancake recipe. This was the last

479
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.679
call Josh made for more than twenty
for hours, around two pm, Susan

480
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:06.400
called her friend Jovanna and asked her
to come over to curchet with her.

481
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:12.039
She was making blankets for Charlie and
Braden for Christmas. She needed Jovanna's help

482
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.039
to untangle some yarn that was badly
knotted. They sat on the love seat

483
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:20.360
together for two hours while Josh made
pancakes for dinner with the help of the

484
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.960
boys, and this was probably only
the second time that Josh had ever cooked.

485
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.840
Jovanna was a newer friend to Susan. She'd heard from other church members

486
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.800
that Josh was rude and not a
good husband, but that day, Jovanna

487
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:37.480
found him charming as he draped a
blanket over Susan's shoulders when she said she

488
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:43.679
was cold. He made them cream
cheese pancakes topped with apple pie filling.

489
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:49.599
Josh served them individually. As he
made the pancakes, Jovanna recalled everyone being

490
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.920
in a good mood that day,
unpleasant to each other. Susan went upstairs

491
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.800
to lie down after dinner. At
about four thirty pm, she was suddenly

492
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.679
exhausted. She'd been suffer bring from
an ear infection for two weeks. She

493
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.559
had thought she might be pregnant,
so she didn't go to the doctor for

494
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:09.840
antibiotics, and Josh also discouraged her
from spending money on a doctor's visit.

495
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:15.280
But earlier that week, Susan believed
she had suffered an early miscarriage. She

496
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.360
had been horribly nauseous for a couple
of weeks, but she got her period

497
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.800
and the nausea had abated. She
had taken a pregnancy test that was negative,

498
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:27.880
but Susan was sure that she was. It's possible, though, that

499
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:32.159
she was nauseous from something else.
Josh might have been poisoning her. Okay,

500
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:36.719
he didn't cook, but sometimes he
made her probiotic shakes and he could

501
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:39.400
have slipped something into the shake.
Shocking. How many stories we've done where

502
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:44.920
people poison someone with like a shake
or a smoothie or something that they make

503
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.480
for their partner. Yeah, you
let me make you smoothing all the time.

504
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:52.760
I must trust you. And pancakes. How are you feeling so far?

505
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:57.039
So good? Because the pancakes were
like he would But that's how you

506
00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:59.960
make pancakes too. You don't make
twelve, I mean you have to make

507
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.599
pancakes and hand amount of time.
Yeah, but because he was making them

508
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:07.480
individually, thought possible. But something
special, right yeah? Because she got

509
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.400
really sleepy, right, you know, very quickly, and then went to

510
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:16.480
take a nap. Jovanna stayed a
little longer working on untangling susan yarn while

511
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:21.000
she was napping, until Josh told
her that she needed to hit the road

512
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.880
because he was taking the boys and
going sledding. He needed to lock up

513
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.239
the house, so she needed to
get going. Jovanna left at five point

514
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.719
thirty. Josh, Charlie, and
Braden left to go sledding in the newly

515
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.480
fallen snow, although there are some
reports that Braiden did not go, that

516
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:39.679
he stayed home with Susan. A
neighbor saw them return home from sledding at

517
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:45.159
eight thirty pm. At eleven thirty
pm, a neighborhood an unknown alarm sounding

518
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.000
from the Powell home. Another neighbor
thought that she heard a couple fighting,

519
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.199
but she couldn't discern if it was
Susan and Josh. We aren't sure what

520
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.320
happened next. We only have Josh's
account, but we'll get to that in

521
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:01.039
a minute. December eighth is where
we started when Debby Caldwell was alarmed when

522
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:06.000
the boys weren't dropped off at her
house for day care. The police recalled

523
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:09.039
and Josh's phone was turned off all
day. At three p m. Jovanna

524
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.960
talked to Josh on the phone,
and that's when she told him the police

525
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.119
are here. They're waiting for you. Where are you? You need to

526
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:20.840
come home. That brings us to
five twenty seven. Jennifer tried to call

527
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:24.559
Josh, but he didn't answer.
At five thirty six, Josh called Susan's

528
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:29.760
phone and left a message, but
her phone was with him in the van.

529
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:34.320
At five forty three, Josh called
Susan's cell phone again to tell her

530
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.480
he was at Walls Fargo to pick
her up from work. At five forty

531
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:42.360
eight, Josh returned Jennifer's call.
He claimed to have been at work all

532
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.559
day, and Jennifer told him she
knew that he was lying. She asked

533
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:51.239
where Susan was. Josh light again
and said Susan was at work. When

534
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.920
she asked how the boys were,
Josh said they were safe. Josh then

535
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:59.679
asked a question that made Jennifer's blood
run cold, quote how much do you

536
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.519
know? She answered, Why do
you ask? What have you done?

537
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:07.159
What did you do to her?
Josh hung up. At six pm,

538
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:13.440
Jennifer drove back to Susan and Josh's
house. Detective Ellis Maxwell met her there.

539
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.400
He asked Jennifer if he could borrow
her phone to call Josh. Josh

540
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:22.880
answered, and Detective Ellis told him
to come home immediately. Josh said he

541
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.559
needed to get the boy some food, but he'd be home soon. Can

542
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:30.280
you imagine like the officer. Oh, he thinks he's talking to his sister

543
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:36.800
and talking to the officer. Josh
returned home to find Detective Ellis Maxwell waiting

544
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:40.559
for him in his driveway. Maxwell
began questioning Josh while the boys were still

545
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.800
buckled in their car seats. Josh
claimed that sometime between one and two AM,

546
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.920
he, Charlie, and Braden had
left to go camping. They didn't

547
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.400
stop until four AM. Perfectly normal
thing to do. It's totally hard to

548
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:59.119
go on a camping trip at one
an in December, record cold temperatures at

549
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.800
least three inches of snow. Susan
had stayed home. Josh said that he

550
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.719
woke the boys up around seven thirty
am, made a fire, and they

551
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:10.480
had s'mores for breakfast. They hiked, played in the snow, and then

552
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:15.280
drove along the trails before they headed
home at noon. When Josh called Susan's

553
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:22.960
cell phone, I thought they wait
on our way back. And I can't

554
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.960
believe that some now my brain is
the day I'm not to day with Sunday.

555
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:32.000
That was really really CUTEID right,
I'll not get any he thought it

556
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:42.320
was Sunday. It's inexplicable. Yeah, they'd spent the rest of the day

557
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.159
driving around. Josh claimed he didn't
know where Susan was now. He assumed

558
00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:51.119
work. Their van was the only
vehicle they had, and he didn't know

559
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:54.199
how she had gotten to work.
Josh said that he had forgotten about work

560
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:59.400
until Monday morning. He said he
got his days confused. That's just so

561
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.239
weird, it's crazy, and then
he didn't even bother calling. Detective Elis

562
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:08.079
noticed two phones in Josh's van,
both charging, despite Josh saying he kept

563
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:12.800
his phone off most of the day
because he didn't have a charger with him.

564
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:16.440
One of the phones was pink.
At seven point fifteen, Detective Ellis

565
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:21.239
asked Josh to come to the police
station and bring his sons. Ellis would

566
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.039
later regret this. Charlie and Braden's
presence gave Josh an excuse to be distracted

567
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:30.800
and not forthcoming. During the interview, Josh again recalled the events of the

568
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.039
past twenty four hours to the detective. His story didn't make any sense.

569
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:39.239
Do you know where Susan's at?
No, when's the last time you seen

570
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:45.920
her? Probably about midnight of last
night? Where at home? What time

571
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:51.280
did you go to bed? I
started leaving. What could you guys talk

572
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.960
about taking a voice more? And
then you said you go in to bed,

573
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.519
And then what did you do after
that? Just loaded up the car

574
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:07.480
and load up the boys and go
up. Do you think she is danger

575
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:09.039
right now? Do you think she's
hurt? I don't think she was.

576
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:15.079
This work, which well, she
goes places to put you on this work.

577
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:20.440
I love how the detective is just
like peppering questions like one after the

578
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.199
other after the other. He's not
a fan of Josh's, so I can't

579
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:29.000
imagine that. Josh said they'd watched
a movie the Santa Claus two or three,

580
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.840
he couldn't remember, and then he'd
taken the boy's sledding. When they

581
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.199
returned, Josh decided to clean the
love seat with a rug doctor that he'd

582
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:40.280
reached recently purchased, but he didn't
clean any of the other furniture. After

583
00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:45.840
midnight, he'd spontaneously decided to go
camping with the boys despite a winter storm

584
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:50.039
pounding the area, and Susan stayed
home. She didn't stop him. She

585
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.719
was okay with them leaving. They
drove two hours to Simpson Springs, southwest

586
00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:59.440
of Salt Lake City. Simpson Springs
was a stop along the Pony Express Trail

587
00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:04.280
where the horse we'rested or exchanged.
There were dozens of abandoned mines along the

588
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.840
trail. Overland stagecoach routes also passed
through Simpson Springs. It is a remote

589
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:14.199
and sparsely populated area, with little
to no cell phone signal. The dirt

590
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.159
and gravel roads can be difficult to
travel in the winter. It is a

591
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:21.920
popular spot for hiking and camping,
but in the winter it would be desolate.

592
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:25.079
They slept in the car. Josh
said he'd brought a generator and a

593
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:30.679
heater to keep warm. Police went
to investigate the area that Josh claimed to

594
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.119
have been in, but they found
no evidence of a fire or tire tracks,

595
00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:38.159
but new snow could have possibly covered
up their tracks. Police did a

596
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:44.480
flyover via helicopter and again saw nothing. There was a sheep herder, though

597
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:49.159
that confirmed seeing a blue van on
the morning of December seventh in the area,

598
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.360
and when Josh was being interviewed by
Detective Ellis, he actually mentioned seeing

599
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:59.639
sheep, so it seems as if
he was there before. Josh was allowed

600
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:01.679
to leave the police station for the
night. He agreed for his band to

601
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:06.760
be searched. A blue tarp lined
the back of the van, lankets,

602
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.519
sleds, a gas can, tarps, latex gloves, a shovel, a

603
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:15.719
rake, a humidifire, a circular
saw, a handsaw, gram crackers,

604
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:20.960
two knives, an electric generator,
and a tripod. We're all on the

605
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.400
back of the van. That's a
lot of stuff. A lot of stuff

606
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.960
plus two totes full of camping equipment
were in the van. Missing from the

607
00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:31.280
van were food other than the gram
crackers, warm clothes, and diapers for

608
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:37.840
the boys. Before leaving the police
station, Joshu relinquished his and Susan cell

609
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:42.119
phones, but he tried to pull
a fast one on them by removing the

610
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.840
SIM cards from both of the phones. I think I asked you this the

611
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:50.280
other day, but is all the
information on your phone on this SIM card?

612
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:53.559
No? I think the SIM card
only has the information that is specific

613
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:58.199
to you, like your phone number
and security information and things like that.

614
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:01.800
So taking away the SIM card I
don't think would get rid of all of

615
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:07.320
your emails and messages and all of
your data. During the interview, Detective

616
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.880
Ellis noticed that Josh's hands were read
extremely chapped and there were some scratches on

617
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:17.119
them. What that could have happened
too from camping in the cold weather,

618
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.880
that could happen too, right,
Yeah, At nine pm, Josh and

619
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.280
his sons left the police department and
went home. After Josh departed for the

620
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:30.719
night, Detective Ellis had a sick, uneasy feeling. He didn't much like

621
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.639
Josh Powell. He hadn't shown one
iota for concern for his wife's safety.

622
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:38.480
He had been nervous and twitchy,
only concerned for his own well being,

623
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:45.880
and Josh reportedly spent the rest of
the night meticulously cleaning his van. I'm

624
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.039
with Detective Elis on this one.
I don't like him either. This is

625
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:52.440
a pivotal part of the case here. Josh gets to go home, he

626
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:57.519
gets to clean his van, mm
hmm. And you have to wonder why

627
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:02.280
they didn't seize his right right exactly. Yeah, So I think that's something

628
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:07.480
that Detective Elis and the rest of
the police department regretted, letting him have

629
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.400
access to his house after a possible
crime had been committed. Yeah, I

630
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.760
would say so. In the contrast, and we did that Allison and Jared

631
00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.480
baden Clay episode. If you remember, he reported her missing and it was

632
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.280
suspicious right away because he had scratches
on his face, and they immediately shut

633
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.239
the house down. They roped it
off, and it was like, yeah,

634
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:29.440
no going back in the house.
It's so hard because you don't know

635
00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:32.239
until you know. And I know
they do their best, but yeah,

636
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:37.360
sometimes I think the detective in this
case thought to himself, there's not enough.

637
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.360
I'm not going to be able to
get a search warrant. Yeah,

638
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:45.800
I think that was the problem.
Josh didn't call Chuck Cox until Tuesday,

639
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:50.760
two days after Susan's disappearance. Chuck
didn't like Josh, but for the sake

640
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:54.679
of his relationship with his grandsons and
to better position himself to learn more about

641
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:59.400
what had happened to Susan, he
was nice to him and referred to him

642
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.920
as a superdad to the media.
In the early days of the investigation,

643
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:07.239
Chuck told the police that he didn't
think that Josh was capable of hurting Susan.

644
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:13.039
The Cox family wanted to focus on
finding Susan. That was their number

645
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.519
one priority. They did not go
after Josh during the entire investigation. They

646
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:22.079
were always careful not to accuse him
of anything except for not being forthcoming with

647
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:28.440
them or the police, which was
totally true. If I went missing,

648
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.360
I would hope that you would sit
down with the police and tell them everything

649
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:35.679
you know, and you would be
calling them and asking where is my hope

650
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:38.280
police, Yes, for sure,
where's my wife? Right? And how

651
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:44.559
is the investigation going? And Josh, you didn't do that. Yeah.

652
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.440
On the same Tuesday he talked to
Chuck, Josh had an appointment for a

653
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:52.280
follow up interview with the West Valley
City Police Department. Josh was four hours

654
00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.480
late, and it's a really bad
idea to show up to a police interview

655
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.559
four hours late, but Josh was
busy doing laundry, clean up his van

656
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:06.480
and garage. During the interview,
Detective Ellis Maxwell asked Josh if Susan could

657
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:09.760
have taken her own life, and
Josh said yes, but they only had

658
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:14.119
one vehicle, right, and Josh
had that So if she had taken her

659
00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:17.400
own life, where would she Where
would he be? Yeah? Yeah,

660
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:22.960
And the timeline is pretty narrow too, if Josh left between one and two

661
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:27.280
am. As ridiculous as it sounds, Debbie Caldwell was there, you know

662
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.199
at nine am, knocking on the
door, right, and there was no

663
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:32.880
answer. You know, they know
Susan wasn't there. Yeah, so less

664
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.519
than eight hours. Yeah, the
whole story is full of holes. Doesn't

665
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:40.800
make any sense. Doesn't make any
sense. Josh admitted that he hadn't been

666
00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:45.599
the best husband to Susan. Before
Josh left the interview, Detective Maxwell read

667
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:51.239
him his Miranda rights. Josh didn't
ask once how the investigation was going.

668
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:54.039
He was angry that the police had
broken a window to gain entry into the

669
00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:59.800
house. He repeated this several times
during the interview. Debbie called, well

670
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:02.239
had key to the house and he
didn't understand why they hadn't used her key.

671
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:07.320
He was more upset about a broken
window than his missing wife. This

672
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.920
was not lost on Detective Ellis.
While Josh was at the police station,

673
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.079
Jennifer took Charlie and Braden to the
South Valley Children's Justice Center to be questioned

674
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:22.280
by a West Valley City Police detective
named Kim Welti. Braiden was too young

675
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.360
to answer any questions, but Charlie
was able and willing. He said that

676
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.639
on Sunday night, he went camping
with his mother, father, and brother.

677
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:34.000
He said they went on an airplane
and flew to Dinosaur National Park and

678
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:37.880
had s'mores. He said his mom
had stayed at the park because it was

679
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:42.599
so pretty and she liked the crystals. Charlie was aware that his father was

680
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.239
at the police station being interviewed.
He said it was because his grandparents,

681
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:51.440
Susan's parents had broken a window at
their house by throwing a rock through it.

682
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.079
Charlie's explanation is a little confusing,
and remind me how old is Charlie

683
00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:59.559
at this point? So Charlie is
four, he's almost five, He'll be

684
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:04.360
five, okay. The previous summer, the Powells had traveled to the West

685
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:08.280
Desert to the Dugway geode beds.
You can search for geodes and when cracked

686
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:14.519
open, crystals are inside. They
had also recently visited Dinosaur National Monument.

687
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:19.719
There is no Dinosaur National Park and
Thanksgiving point. I think he just got

688
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:22.440
all of those different places kind of
confused, and as you do when you're

689
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.360
four years old, right. He
did have a good imagination too, A

690
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:30.280
smart little guy. Later in twenty
ten, investigators once again had a child

691
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:36.480
psychologist interview Charlie. This time,
he was much less willing to answer questions.

692
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:40.639
He'd clearly been coached do you know
what happened to mommy, The psychologist

693
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.039
asked, it's the big secret.
Charlie said, I can't talk about mommy

694
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:51.320
or camping. I always keep things
as secrets. It's a really bad sign,

695
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.239
isn't it. It's so sad that
the kids were so intertwined in this

696
00:51:54.320 --> 00:52:00.280
story, and they were coached by
a lot of adults in their life should

697
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:04.039
have had their best interests but did
not, but did not. In the

698
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.920
summer of twenty ten, Charlie and
Braden went to day camp. Three year

699
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:10.679
old Braiden drew a picture of himself, Josh, and Charlie in a car.

700
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.679
He told his camp counselor that they
were going camping and Mommy was in

701
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:19.079
the trunk. He said, Mommy
and Daddy got out of the car and

702
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:22.719
mommy never came back. According to
the Salt Lake Tribune, Charlie and Braden

703
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:28.920
both repeatedly told their grandparents, quote, Mommy is in a mine unquote.

704
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:34.000
Isn't that horrible? Yeah? That
is horrible, horror babies. Yeah,

705
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:37.599
I think that's where we are stopping
for it today. Oh, I'm sorry,

706
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:40.760
it's okay, I'll try to wait. What do you think of Josh

707
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.800
so far. I hate him,
I really really hate him. I hate

708
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:50.239
his dad and uh oh just wait, yeah, no, I know if

709
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.440
you know this story, you know
about Steve Powell, it's it's horrible.

710
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:57.679
Yeah, we will get to Steve
Powell next time and a little bit more

711
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:02.880
about the investigation. What do you
think Susan saw in Josh? That's a

712
00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:07.239
really good question. She was a
beautiful young woman. I mean, yeah,

713
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:10.559
she was nineteen, and yeah,
she was a catch. I don't

714
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.320
know. I mean, it's a
great question. It's hard to he was

715
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:17.440
this odd little guy. Yeah,
he just every every like video I've seen

716
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.559
or every you know clip I've heard
of him, he just seems like a

717
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:25.639
really just a strange guy, very
awkward. Yeah. I was gonna say

718
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:30.199
weenie, but a weasel. Maybe
a weenie. Yeah, but I don't

719
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:31.480
know. I mean, maybe he
turned down the charm, you know.

720
00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:37.280
I think sometimes people can do that, even if they're you did exactly,

721
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:42.679
I fooled you into love, You're
charming. Oh, I don't know.

722
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:45.679
I don't know what she saw in
him, and I yeah, hard to

723
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:51.880
say. Curious what you think was
going through Josh's mind when he was just

724
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:58.199
like driving around the next day,
and waiting two days to call her parents,

725
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:01.719
Like it's just seemed that's just so
bizarre to me that he just seemed

726
00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:05.159
like, I don't know, he
had all the time in the world to

727
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:09.639
do whatever. It was really bizarre
because allegedly he left where they were camping,

728
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:15.000
and that was a two hour drive
back to their house at noon,

729
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:19.199
So between two and like seven,
that's five hours. What the heck was

730
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.519
he doing? Yeah, and lying
about being at work, like when obviously

731
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:27.920
that is easily checked and easily disproven. It just seems like if you were

732
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.159
trying to, like if you did
kill your wife and you were trying to

733
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:35.119
make it look like you didn't,
he did everything wrong. Like he just

734
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:40.960
brought attention and suspicion on himself for
just bizarre reasons. Well, and Charlie,

735
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:45.559
Charlie and Braden are you know two
and four almost three and five,

736
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:52.559
and they're not like mellow kids.
There are rambunctious kids and for them to

737
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:55.039
you know how I am about sleeping
babies like that is one of like when

738
00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:59.480
we see we're out at night,
When I see kids out at like yeah,

739
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:01.559
little one like toddler's out at ten
o'clock, I get so mad,

740
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:06.599
because babies need their sleep. If
you want your kids to behave and thrive,

741
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:10.840
they need a lot of more sleep
than you might think that they need.

742
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:17.079
And to have them sleeping in a
cold van all night and to dry

743
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:22.599
be driving them around, and yeah, you know, feeding them fast food.

744
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.199
It's just none of it makes any
sense. I should clarify that.

745
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:30.880
Chuck and Judy Cox, Susan's parents. Josh called them two days after Susan

746
00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:37.000
had disappeared, but they were aware
that she had disappeared because remember her,

747
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:40.440
Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister had called
them and some friends had called them,

748
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.920
so they were aware. Okay,
but still it was shady that he didn't

749
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.719
call them and be like, you
know, I'm really worried about Susan.

750
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:52.599
Yeah. Yeah, he did not
do a good job with that. Remember

751
00:55:53.119 --> 00:56:00.400
the Chris and Sanan Watts case when
Chris was shocked about all of Shnan's friends

752
00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:02.800
that within a few hours off we're
going missing. This reminded me of that

753
00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:07.519
too. I think Josh might have
thought people wouldn't notice, but so many

754
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.800
people noticed so quickly. Yeah,
and the police were called before he really

755
00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:15.719
got a chance to gather his bearings. Yeah, I was gonna mention that

756
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:20.400
when you were talking about Debbie,
Debbie was the one right who came by.

757
00:56:20.599 --> 00:56:23.880
Yeah like that. That was really
yeah, really good on her part

758
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:29.239
to be so proactive in trying to
find out where she was right. It's

759
00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:31.519
good to have good friends. Yeah, as weird as it seems to you

760
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:37.519
and I to go camping in the
middle of the night. Josh was known

761
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:43.280
to make very spontaneous and impulsive decisions, okay, and including the boys in

762
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.360
it, like they didn't like when
our kids were little, we were so

763
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:51.000
strict about sleep and eating schedules and
things like that. He just wasn't.

764
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:55.320
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
bizarre, but some some people do do

765
00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:00.360
things like that, I guess,
but it seems it just seems so crazy,

766
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:04.920
like at that and to camp in
your car and snow falling and yeah,

767
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.440
and to drive two hours at one
am, you know, I think

768
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:15.320
even that with a stretch for Jacks. Yeah, I was really upset about

769
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:19.360
a news story yesterday that I heard. I know you were. I haven't

770
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:24.559
seen you that upset in a long
time. Joey's chestnut. He's been banned,

771
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:30.880
He's been banned from the Nathan's annual
hot dog eating kind of every July

772
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:35.119
fourth we look forward to and I
know people think I'm joking, but it's

773
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:37.920
real, Like we if we're not
going to be home, we record it

774
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.199
and we watch the hot dog eating, as disgusting as it is, we

775
00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:44.719
watch that hot dogg incut. And
every year, you know Joey Chestnut's gonna

776
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:47.519
win because he wins by like I
don't know, twenty or thirty. By

777
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.599
thirty. Yeah, if I wanted
to see someone eat forty three hot dogs,

778
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:57.159
I just stay home and but you
eat. No, it's really sad.

779
00:57:57.159 --> 00:57:59.840
Though it's not going to be the
same exact. I hope that there's

780
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:05.519
something happens. I hope that there's
a an apology and a forgiveness. And

781
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:09.920
well, several years ago, the
competition took a big blow when Kobayashian was

782
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:14.599
banned for I can't remember why,
but there was some controversy or whatever and

783
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.920
he couldn't compete, which he was
like the only one who could even come

784
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:22.960
close to he won at least or
yeah, I think he was like the

785
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:28.559
guy for a while and then yeah, it's Joey's championships aren't consecutive. He's

786
00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:31.559
you know, lost a couple here. Why do you remember why Joey Chestnut

787
00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:35.519
got banned? That was kind of
strange to me. Didn't he have a

788
00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:40.559
sponsorship with a vegan hot company,
a company that makes hot dogs with beyond

789
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:45.679
like fake meat essentially, And I
guess that was too much for Nathan's hot

790
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:51.920
Dogs? So, I mean,
does he do commercials for Nathan's. Oh,

791
00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:53.599
I don't know. I don't think
he does any commercials for Nathan you

792
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:58.320
know, because he actually tweeted about
this, so I was going to read

793
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.480
his tweet, so he said he
was gutted to learn from the media that

794
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:07.199
after nineteen years, I'm banned from
the Nathan's July fourth hot Dog Eating Contest.

795
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:10.559
I love competing in that event.
I love celebrating America with my fans

796
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:14.199
all over this great country on the
fourth, and I have been training to

797
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:16.599
defend my title. To set the
record straight, I do not have a

798
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:22.800
contract with Major League Eating or Nathan's
and they're looking to change the rules from

799
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:27.119
past years as it relates to other
partners I can work with. This is

800
00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:30.480
apparently the basis of on which I'm
being banned, and it doesn't impact the

801
00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:37.159
July fourth event. So well,
I have started a petition you should.

802
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.400
It's really an outrage. I think
their ratings are going to tank. I

803
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:46.639
probably won't be watching watched, and
I may eat a Beyond hot dog on

804
00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:51.719
July fourth as a form of protest. You will not do I would.

805
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:55.199
I know that I've heard somewhere before
that each time you eat a hot dog

806
00:59:55.239 --> 01:00:00.800
it takes seven minutes off your life. Oh god, Joey Chestnuts living on

807
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:06.599
a few of at this point,
that's really weird. I had never heard

808
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:08.559
that before. I do think you
trained for competitive eating. I'm not asking

809
01:00:08.599 --> 01:00:15.000
you for any reason. Rhetorical question. Do you think he rams up like

810
01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:21.119
you know julyfe Well, probably this
this time of year is probably ramming up

811
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:24.280
to like thirty six hot dogs,
And yeah, I really could do that.

812
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.840
I think he's not obese. No, he's not. I don't know

813
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:32.559
how. I don't know how competitive
eating works because most of those people are

814
01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:37.920
not obese like they're you know,
they don't really look that as a sport.

815
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:40.320
So yeah, you know, I
don't know. I don't know.

816
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:45.559
It's uh, it's crazy. Well. Thompson's Pizza Ria over in Chelsea,

817
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:49.559
Michigan, where they have the Monster
Pizza that they do. I don't know

818
01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:51.480
when they do it. They do
it once a year. I think it's

819
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:53.400
October. Okay, it's for like
Halloween. So it's like called the Monster

820
01:00:53.440 --> 01:01:00.400
Pizza and it's like a big pizza
and four friends or three I think it's

821
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:05.480
a team of four okay, and
no one ever like hard, like if

822
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:07.039
you can eat the whole thing,
like you get it for free or you

823
01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:12.239
get like a prize or something.
I don't know if I've never looked too

824
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:15.639
far into it, but I follow
them on Instagram, but it's always fun

825
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:19.280
to see, like you know,
they always post the people before and after,

826
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.280
and there's always some pizza left.
Yeah, I think a few people

827
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:23.559
have done it, but it's pretty
rare. I'm getting really hungry. Can

828
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:27.639
we can we stop recording now and
go eat? What do you? What

829
01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:32.880
do you want to? Binge?
Eat hot dogs and pizza so not pancakes.

830
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.039
No being mad about the pancakes.
No, I'm not mad about them,

831
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:39.599
but uh they were they were good. Well. If you want to

832
01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:44.840
listen to all three parts of this
case, join us on Patreon. Go

833
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:49.440
to patreon dot com. Slash Love
Mary Kill one tier five dollars a month

834
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:53.280
for early ad free access and a
monthly bonus episode. The best part of

835
01:01:53.320 --> 01:01:58.320
Patreon is when we do these two
or three part episodes, you can just

836
01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:01.239
listen to them all. Well.
The is though then sometimes you have like

837
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:06.800
a little bit of a Rich and
Tina desert where you know this is going

838
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:10.519
to be three parts that but you
are going to paar us next week and

839
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:15.440
I am going to work on the
Patreon episode okay, which is actually has

840
01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:21.239
a tie into this case MM interesting. So please rate, review, follow

841
01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:24.599
and subscribe. Find us on Instagram
or Facebook, or send us an email

842
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:30.119
at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com
if you want to send us a snack.

843
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:37.039
LMK podcast po Box one one one
Dexter Michigan for eight one three zero

844
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:38.800
And thank you for all your messages. Like when we get emails, we

845
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:42.960
always we always talk about it,
but it really it warms our hearts when

846
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:47.559
we get nice notes from people.
So we love we We do love you,

847
01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:52.840
guys and DESI hope, I hope
you like this episode. We love

848
01:02:52.840 --> 01:03:27.920
you until next time. Don't kill
your wife, Don't kill your husband.

849
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:34.840
To Companion to the