Susan and Josh Powell - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife and sundays you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I am phenomenal? How are you? Oh? Wow, I'm great. I'm great. I'm a little sleepy. Why I've been up a little late working on this Susan and Josh Powell case. You've been working really really and you picked up a little slack, So that's thank you for doing that. It's taken me like weeks to do this one. Yeah. So I am just going to run right into snack because it's hot and ready and I'm hungry too.

0:51 So you are? I am at a salad for lunch? You know? Oh this is not a salad? Good? This is it's uh pancakes. Oh wow, it was with today's episode pancakes and apples apple pie filling. You're supposed to put on top. I didn't put on top yet. You can if you want, or you can dip them. Okay, do you want to try it? Yeah? I'm excited to try it. So what did you think they were delicious? Do you want to just sit here and eat pancakes and talk and not talk about it and not do the podcast today? Okay, just have a pancake episode. So I haven't done this to you in a while, but I kind of played a dirty trick on you. Oh boy, do you know where I'm going with this? I don't know. You put some weird ingredient and you put cream cheese in the pancakes. Cheese. You got me, I got you. I would have not known there was cream cheese. The recipe probably makes twelve pancakes. I only made four, and there's only four ounces of cream cheese and it, so it's not an overwhelming amount of cream cheese. I think it just adds a nice taste. Well, I was going to ask you if those were just classic pancakes. So they did taste a little bit different to me than just a typical pancakes. And they're really fluffy. Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of baking powder in them. Yeah, it was good that I like the apple filling was It's not what I would have picked. But you'll find out in a few minutes why it had to be apple filling.

2:20 Today. Alrighty, So I said that we would never cover this case because it's so huge, we could. We could do twenty parts on it. Yeah, like the Cold podcast, which I had listened to. That was one of the first true crime podcasts that I had ever listened to. Yeah, yeah, And I think I made you listen to this. I'm like, oh, this is so good. You didn't make me listen to it? Okay, I'm sorry I didn't. I didn't force you, but I think I highly recommend it. Yes, and it is phenomenal. So if you enjoy our episode, I encourage you to go listen to Dave Colly's work. I think there's like twenty episodes and I went back and listened to most of them. Kind of funny though they talk kind of slowly in Utah. I think, I don't know, maybe it was just the podcast, but I was able to listen to it on one and a half speed and didn't I play it for you? And its marble speaking kind of. But this case was recommended to us by our friend Desi from the Dead podcast. Dosi is my podcast bestie. She loves all things supernatural and spooky and cowboys who sing, So please go give DESI a listen all cowboys Son, Well, she likes sus kind of fuck okay, but this is her Roman Empire case and she really wanted us to cover it. So here we are alrighty, As consumers of true crime, we joke a lot about who would help you bury a body? Good friends help you bury the body, but best friends don't ask why and bring their own shovel. But if it really came down

3:52 to it, would you, And I'm asking you, would you help a friend or relative bury a body and never speak of it again? Realistically? No, No, there's nobody I would help with. The only circumstance I could think of where I would is if the person that we were burying was truly evil and the law wasn't going to take care of it. That's the only I can't even imagine that happening. But no, how about you, Well, of course I wouldn't. You're recording me right now. I'm not going to admit it on air. I pose that question to you because in today's case, we're not sure whether Josh had help disposing of a body or not. Okay, I listened to the cold podcast, but I and I remember the basic outline of the case, but I don't remember a lot of details, so we're going to go pretty deep, but not as deep as cold, of course. Debbie Calledwell, a middle aged wife and mother, owned and operated Daydreams and Fun Things childcare out of her home in West Valley City, Utah. She spent long hours each day with the children in her care and love them like her own. Charlie Powell for and his little brother Braden to, who had been with Debbi four a year and a half.

5:01 Debbie adored the boys and their mother, twenty eight year old Susan Powell, but she could barely tolerate their father, Josh thirty four. She found Josh rude off, putting, a know it all and a tightwad, and she hated how he treated Susan. Susan and Debbie were neighbors and close friends. Susan often confided in Debbie how frustrated she was with Josh and the state of their marriage. On the morning of December seventh, two thousand and nine, Debbie grew concerned when Charlie and Braden hadn't been dropped off. Susan always called to let her know if they were running late. The boys were usually dropped off by six thirty a m. Susan started work at seven. Debbie tried calling Susan and Josh's cell phones, but got no answer. After Debbie dropped her older charges off at school, she decided to drive by the Powell's house to check on them around nine a m. Three inches of fresh snow had blanketed West Valley City the night before, but as she walked up to the house, Debbie didn't see any fresh footprints or tire tracks in the newly fallen snow. No one appeared to be at home. Debbi grew concerned. She then made a series of phone calls from her cell phone. First, she called the Wells Fargo Bank, where Susan worked as a stockbroker. Debby learned that Susan had not shown up for work that morning, and she also failed to call in sick. Next, Debbie called Josh's place of work, Aspen Distribution, a trucking company where he worked as a computer programmer. Josh wasn't at work either, and had also failed to call to notify them of his absence. Debbie's fears escalated that something was seriously wrong. She feared the Powells

6:34 could have had a gas or carbon monoxide leak inside their house. She called Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister in emergency contact for the boys, to see if she knew where the family might be. Jennifer, her husband Kirk, and their five children lived fifteen minutes away in West Jordan, Utah. Debbi hoped the Powells had decided to take a last minute trip. Anne had forgotten to tell anyone, but she knew that was highly unlikely. Jennifer and her mom, Terry, drove to Susan and Josh's house. Terry had been divorced from her husband, Steve Powell for years she lived with Jennifer and her family. Jennifer and Terry weren't able to reach Susan or Josh on their cell phones either.

7:14 Their phones appeared to have been turned off. Their calls went straight to voicemail. When no one answered the door, Terry called the West Valley City Police Department. When they arrived, Jennifer gave the police permission to break a window. As they entered the house, the officers were met with loud music from the radio. Two box vans turned on high were pointed at the carpet, and love seat in the living room, both of which appeared to have been recently shampooed. Jennifer went to the bird's cage. She knew that if the bird was alive, then Susan, Josh, and the boys could not have died from carbon monoxide poisoning either. She was relieved to find the bird alive when she peered into its cage. Susan and Josh loved that bird. They had called at their first baby when they got it soon after they were married eight years earlier. But when Jennifer walked upstairs to the bedrooms she found Susan's purse, keys, and credit cards. She became worried. Again.

8:05 We've had this in a few cases where the purse is there, and I think a lot of times men forget to get rid of the purse. Yes, because if you're going to get rid of your wife, you have to get rid of the purse too, because women don't normally leave home without their purse. All right, why am I giving this? I was going to ask, But you know, the red boots that Susan wore daily in the snow a Utah weather were by the front door. The house was tidy, There was no evidence of a break in or a struggle, and no sign of forest entry. The Powell's only vehicle, a mini van, was missing from the garage. The garage floor was dry because of the recent snow, The floor would have been wet if they had come and gone within the past twelve hours. On Saturday night, Josh had won a new flip camera at his company's Christmas party, which he was very excited about. Josh loved gadgets.

8:50 He was known to be spontaneous. Jennifer and Terry thought he might have gone to take pictures of the snow and slid off the road somewhere. Police immediately issued a be on the lookout for the Powell's two thousand and five light blue Chrysler Town and Country Van. After a quick search, the West Valley Police Department didn't find as much as a speeding ticket for Susan or Josh. The police had never been called to their house for a domestic violence incident. Jennifer began making phone calls. First, she called Chuck and Judy Cox, Susan's mother and father. They lived nine hundred miles away in Powallup, Washington. Next, she called her father, Stephen Powell, who also lived in Powallop. Steve is a major player in this case, as you'll come to find out, as historian Flipfolds, he was creepy and a delusional sexual predator who was obsessed with Susan. But more on Steve later, Jennifer called several of Susan's church friends to see if anyone knew where the four Powells might be.

9:48 No one had seen or heard from them. But when Jennifer reached Jovanna Owings on the phone, she told her that she had seen Susan at church the day before. After TI, she went to the Powell home to crochet with Susan. Josh had even made dinner for Susan and Jovanna while they crocheted. Jennifer was baffled at this. Josh never cooked. Jovanna called Josh late on Monday afternoon. It was the first call he had answered all day. In a terse, motherly tone, she asked, Josh, where are you? What are you doing? The police are looking for you. Josh said he was driving around with the boys. He said they'd been camping. Remember they're in a major weather event. It's been snowing for days here in Utah.

10:31 And it's been super cold too. Yeah, some people like to camp in that sort of weather, but I don't. Jovanna was incredulous. She asked for Susan was Josh said that she was at work. Jovanna chastised him, quote, we both know she's not there, Josh. She told Josh that he needed to come home immediately and explain himself. Josh spent the next two hours driving around aimlessly. Before he went home, he stopped at a self served car wash and thoroughly cleaned the van. That's not suspicious at all. The roads were a mess from the snow, so he cleaned the van in vain. Unless there was something he was trying to hide or wash away. Josh was in no hurry to go home and talk to the West Valley City Police Department. He became an expert in evading them in the months to come. Chuck and Judy Cox met in high school. Judy was member of the Mormon Church when they started dating, Chuck joined the church as well.

11:26 After high school, Chuck spent six years in the Air Force and learned to fly. Susan Marie Cox was born in New Mexico at the Holloman Air Force base on October sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, the third of four daughters to Chuck and Judy, Mary, Denise, Susan, and Marie. Chuck was a ranking staff sergeant in the Air Traffic Control Tower. After leaving the Air Force, the Cox family moved to Alaska, Van, Vancouver, Washington, and finally to Powallup, Washington. How can you say Vancouver? Are you referring to the city in Canada? No, there is a Vancouver washing As well as a civilian, Chuck worked as an investigator for the FAA. Everyone in the Cox family was musical. They all sang and played instruments. Susan shared a bedroom with her sister Denise. They were very close. Both girls were animal lovers. They especially loved birds. At one time they had twenty seven birds in their bedroom. Oh my parakeets, finches, and one cockatoo.

12:24 I couldn't believe that twenty seven. I thought it was like, wasn't right. But then there was something about how Susan's mom made them clean the bird cages twice a day, so they didn't enjoy that part of it, but they really loved their birds. Susan loved playing beauty shop with her sisters and mother and doing their hair, nails, and makeup. She dreamed of opening a salon one day. Susan was more and bubbly with a bright smile. She had a magnetic personality and made friends easily. Chuck and Judy Cox had their ups and downs over the years, but at the time of Susan's disappearance, they had been married thirty four years. They loved their family and were very proud of all of their daughters. Steve Powell went on a Mormon mission to Argentina. His family was dysfunctional and he couldn't wait to get away.

13:11 As a child, Steve's parents divorced and had a lengthy custody battle. He and his siblings were used as pawns in the divorce. Steve's parents played games with each other. More than once. One of them would move and hide the children from the other and not say where they were living. They called it the kidnap game. Hmm, that's a fun game. That's horrible for the kids, Yeah, for sure. When Steve returned to the US after his mission, he was twenty three years old. Steve soon met and married eighteen year old Terka. I have heard her called different things. I think her birth name was Terarika. In the cold podcast they refer to her as Teresa. In the book I read for the case, they call her Terry. Okay, so I'm we're using Terry. Go with Terry. We're going with Terry, all right. They had five children in quick succession, Jennifer, josh Johnny, Mike, and Elina. Joshua Stephen was born on January twentieth, nineteen seventy six, in Spokane, Washington. The family later settled in Ogden, Utah. The young couple struggled to make ends meet.

14:16 Steve worked the night shift stocking shelves at a grocery store, while Terry stayed home with the children. Steve believed in traditional gender roles. The Powells were once happy, but Steve transformed over the years to be anti government, anti church, and raised his children to question authority. He was a controlling and abusive husband to Terry. The Powell household was chaotic and dysfunctional. In nineteen ninety two, after nineteen years of marriage, when josh was sixteen, Terry filed for divorce after she contracted an STI and Steve told her that he wanted a polygamous marriage, he had fallen in love with another woman. Terry wanted no part of that lifestyle. Josh and most of his siblings continued to live with Steve, who had left the Mormon Church. Steve could not stand the Mormon Church and tried to turn his children against the religion too. The Powell's divorce was contentious. Steve accused Terry of practicing witchcraft and engaging in the occult.

15:16 There was no evidence of this. Terry accused Steve of being obsessed with pornography and openly discussing sex with their young children. He kept hardcore porn in their home and shared it with their sons. Terry once found pornography in the bedroom of eight year old Michael. When confronted by Terry about his pornography fixation, Steve said, quote, people are just animals anyway. We ought to be able to have sex with anyone anytime we please unquote. In one of his journals, Steve admitted that he was attracted to his oldest daughter, Jennifer. He wrote that sometimes she walked around in a T shirt and underwear. It drove him nuts. He said, oh God, he's going to make you feel so nauseous and horrible. Yeah, he's one of, probably one of the worst people we've covered. Yeah, Steve was disrespectful to Terry and other women. She worried that he was passing his attitude on to their sons.

16:11 She wrote in the divorce documents, quote, for those who will listen to Steve as the older boys have, he seems to have a powerful way of controlling. I know that Steve is persuasive in a most harmful, deliberate way. Steve's manipulation of the kid's thoughts and emotions is terribly difficult to deal with. They grouped together and stir each other up to almost a fever pitch at times. Unquote, Steve was a permissive parent, too busy with his hobbies to worry about the kids. He won their favor by buying them gifts and setting no boundaries. There were no bedtimes or curfews. After the two year long divorce was finalized, the children, except Jennifer, who was in college, lived with Steve. He was a master manipulator and had turned the children against their mother. Terry tried to fight for custody of Mike and Elena.

17:02 The two youngest children, Josh and Johnny were too far gone, but Steve had more resources. Terry was left destitute after the divorce and had little contact with her children. Josh, Johnny, Michael, and Elena were one hundred percent loyal to their father. Josh was a troubled teenager. When he was thirteen, he threatened Terry with a butcher knife. The boys were encouraged by Steve to belittle and disrespect her. When Elena was four, Josh killed her gerbils and made her touch their blood. Ugh He was twice arrested for shoplifting and was a suspect in an arson case. He attempted to take his own life when he was fourteen by hanging himself. When Terry saw the red abrasions on his neck, she made him go to counseling. After high school, despite being an average student, Josh attended Pierce College, a community college in Pualap, where he first focused on architecture. Later, he had a brief flirtation with becoming an actor, but then transferred to the University of Washington and majored in business. While in college, Josh met his first long term girlfriend, Katherine, who was also Mormon. Despite the protests from their parents, they moved in together while still students. Josh always had a cash flow problem. He never kept a job for long. Catherine applied for a student loan at Josh's urging. When the check came, Josh deposited it into his account. Twenty years later, Catherine was still paying the debt off. That's

18:33 horrible. That is yeah, really horrible. Their relationship lasted two years until she felt Josh was becoming too controlling and possessive. He was selfish and lacked focus. Catherine left to visit her family and never returned. She told Josh to put her belongings in storage. She must have really wanted to get out of that relationship badly to leave all her stuff behind. Well, and the debt issue. I don't think she ever pursued it with she just paid for it. Yeah, good for her for getting out. During Josh's college years, his faith wavered, but he was always drawn back to the church. He was most comfortable with other Mormons, although he joined a Christian youth group for a time. The people were warm and welcoming and didn't care that he was a Mormon. Josh and Steve frequently fought during his college years. When they were fighting, Josh grew closer to his mother and the Mormon religion.

19:26 When Josh wasn't under Steve's influence, he was more self aware and introspective. He could see how problematic his father's worldviews were. Terry and Jennifer enjoyed this version of Josh. He was less depressed and moody. Nineteen year old Susan met twenty four year old Josh and Tacoma, Washington at an LDS Singles event in the year two thousand. They bonded over their love of birds. Josh had a parakeet that he took everywhere. How long do parakeets live for? Do you think twenty five? Just a wild guess? It was written in my script and you were reading it. But did you know that I didn't realize that birds lived that long. I did that. They began dating and were a mismatched couple from the start. Susan was pretty and vivacious. Josh was odd and geeky, kind of like Rigentina. Yeah. On the first date, Susan and Josh went to see the movie The Perfect Storm a little foreshadowing, and then they went to suppling. Nice Josh, I'm sure used to coupon. Josh could be mildly charming and funny at times, but generally he was overbearing and liked to talk about himself and his interests in his own words. He once said, quote, I'm not as good a person.

20:37 I'm rather depressed, moody, irritable when I get away from things that I know are right. People find it difficult to remain in my company for extended periods of time. Susan has loved every minute with me. She loves the things that other people cannot tolerate about me. End quote, and it was true. For Valentine's Day, Susan wrote a list of one hundred and thirty two things she loved most about him, including, you want to talk about irrelevant topics until you've resolved the issues of the world. You'll drive aimlessly. You want children, You pray for people. You show affection in public. You don't care what others think. You love my family, get together occasions.

21:18 You watch friends with me for hours. You can be patient. You let me wax you, you let me wax you once n I did you hold me in the middle of the night. You calculate everything. You went to church when you didn't feel like it. It was worth it. You paid tithing without question, You double check locks. In the years to come, Susan would come to despise some of these things about Josh. He had difficulty interpreting social cues, he would talk too long without gauging the interest of his audience, and it was hard to get a word in. The Coxes didn't care for Josh. They'd met him years before when he'd showed up at their house one night to ask Susan's older sister marry out. Harry wasn't home, but Josh came in anyway, chatted up Judy, and played their piano.

22:04 He didn't get the hint to leave until Chuck told him it was time to go. When Susan and Josh met again years later, Susan remembered him from the piano playing incident. They laughed over the shared memory. In a journal entry from the time, Josh remarked about how cute twelve year old Susan was, but lamented she was too young to date boy. Despite warning from her family, sweet natured Susan began dating Josh seriously in October two thousand. Josh was head over heels in love with Susan. I loved the scirl Susan Maury Cox. Every day I love her more, I become more and more certain that I want to be with her, so I'm slow to warm up.

22:48 It's taken me a while to realize that I do want to be with her. Her Ever, he sounds so creepy. He sounds like a wh hear him talk. He reminds me of Napoleon Dynamites brother. Oh yeah, what's his name? Uh, Kip Cat. She reminds me of Kip. Yeah, kind of looks like Kip too. Yeah, kind of pasty and Josh loved Susan's nurturing manner and how hard she worked. Susan attended cosmetology school during the day and at night she worked at the J. C. Penny jewelry counter. Josh asked Susan for help picking out a ring for his mother, but it was a ring for Susan, an engagement ring. He asked her to pay for the ring with her employee discount, but he did pay her back. Two months into the relationship, they were engaged. After several failed relationships and rejections, Josh must have thought he won the lottery when Susan agreed to marry him. When Susan's father, Chuck Cox, learned about their engagement, he called the bishop from his church seeking advice. So he was asking the bishop's advice because he didn't approve of the marriage right, and I think the bishop said, let it go. Let it go, they'll figure it out. Judy encouraged Susan to continue to date other people, but eventually Chuck and Judy gave a tepid blessing. Josh was going to school, he had a job and an apartment. They rationalized, he couldn't be that bad.

24:18 Susan wasn't in a hurry to get married, but Josh pressures her for a quick wedding. On April sixth, two thousand and one, Susan and Josh were married at the LDS Temple in Lake Oswego, Oregon, in a small ceremony with their friends and family in attendance. So remember they started dating in October and by April they're married. That's pretty quick. Their marriage was sealed for eternity. Susan's three sisters were her attendants, all dressed in purple. Two of Josh's siblings, Jennifer and Johnny, didn't attend the wedding, Susan overheard Steve predict to Josh that someday Susan would leave and divorce him a guy. After their wedding, Susan and Josh moved into an apartment, but money was tight and they weren't able to make their rent payment. After they were evicted, they moved in with Steve Powell. Josh worked with his father at an office supply store, selling, assembling, and delivering office furniture while he was finishing his degree in business administration. Susan was overjoyed when she learned she was pregnant with their first baby in two thousand and four. Charlie, named for Susan's father, Chuck, was born on January nineteenth, two thousand and five. Chuck and Judy were in town when Susan went into labor.

25:27 Josh was too busy working on his computer, so her parents drove her to the hospital and Josh showed up three hours later. Wow Amazing Brayden was born two years later on January second, two thousand and seven, so the boy's birthdays are within a couple of weeks of each other, well and two years and two weeks. Financial control is a form of domestic abuse. In ninety nine percent of domestic abuse cases, there is some form of financial control. The abuser usually does this to limit their partner's options and ability to the abuse of situation. The abuser may do one or more of the following restrict access to funds and accounts, control employment, create debt, steal money, or withhold money even for the most basic needs. And Josh had all of these to some extent. To Susan, he kept extremely tight control of his family's finances. Sometimes he refused to let Susan use the car to get to work.

26:26 Josh sold their second car to save money and bought Susan a bike and took her about forty minutes in the morning, sometimes in the dark, but the way home took upwards of an hour. Susan worked but wasn't allowed to spend money, even though she was often the only breadwinner in the family. Josh was frequently unemployed. He had difficulty keeping a job. Josh was untothered and impulsive. He always thought something bigger was on the horizon, and he was too good to work at certain jobs. Josh had crippling debt from his college loans. At least figures, and he never officially graduated. Josh constantly complained about the cost of groceries. He would give Susan twenty dollars a week for groceries, but there was always money for a new tool, computer, or remote control car. At Charlie's one year checkup, his pediatrician said that he was mail nourished. Are you saying twenty dollars a week is not enough for groceries? I mean, that was shocking to me that eighteen oh two.

27:26 Yeah, the family kept a garden out of necessity, not as a hobby or to teach the boys about healthy eating. Sometimes Josh would not allow Susan to go to the grocery store, and the garden was their only source of food. However, the Pals could always turn to the Mormon Church when things were difficult financially. The food bank was well stocked and generous. Parishioners were asked to provide a service or physical labor in exchange for food assistance, and Susan was always happy to help out, but Josh refused, which was unheard of. Yeah in their community, Like you helped out, and Josh just, yeah, he was pretty lazy. Josh also withheld affection and sex from Susan and rarely, if ever, told her that he loved her.

28:07 He complained whenever they had to spend money, he dissuaded her from going to the doctor or taking the children when they were sick. However, Josh spent money freely and frivolously on tools or computers at will. Weeks before Christmas, he spent nearly four hundred dollars on a settling torch. What does one use in a settling torch for weldingly guess? Josh often put Susan in awkward positions with her friends. She asked them frequently for rides or to borrow money, or sometimes even food. Susan had a beauty chair in the basement, and she would offer to cut or color her friend's hair to repay them for their kindness. Josh wanted her to charge them, but she refused. The Mormon Church was an important part of Susan's life. She was deeply devoted to her faith, but church was also a social outlet for her. Susan was an extrovert. Her relationship with Josh was un fulfilling for many reasons. She needed her friends both at work and at church to help her through her difficult marriage.

29:07 Tithing wasn't optional at the church the Powells attended. It was expected church members would give ten percent of their income. Josh was a fair weather Mormon at beast and sometimes refused to tithe, and during these times, Susan couldn't attend church. One thing Josh didn't skimp on was life insurance. Of course, even in the early years of their marriage, when money was tight, Josh purchased a policy on each of them for five hundred thousand dollars, which is that's a lot of money for a family that's just getting by. Later, he increased the coverage two one million dollars for each of them and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the boys. So they were they had a lot of insurance. Yep, we'll be back after a break. Regardless of how tense things became, Susan was determined to make their marriage work. She and Josh were sealed for eternity as far as she was concerned. But as time passed and her relationship with Josh worsened, Susan's resolve weakened. Friends and family spurred her to leave Josh, but she was afraid of what he'd do if she left. The church encouraged her to stay and work on her marriage.

30:19 Josh agreed to attend counseling sessions at the church with an LDS counselor, but Susan could tell Josh's heart wasn't in it. He stopped going after a few sessions. However, in the weeks before her disappearance, Susan put her foot down she was going to church. Susan began standing up for herself, but she chose her battles carefully. Tithing and attending church were two of the things that Susan would no longer compromise on. She even got Josh to attend church with her a few times. Oddly, in the weeks before her disappearance, their marriage improved. He even told Susan he loved her one day. Josh began talking to his father several times a week on the phone for hours at a time. Their relationship weighed heavily on Susan. She hated Steve, and for good reason that we'll get too soon. Steve was a bad influence on Josh. Josh acted differently when he talked to his father. Steve and Josh's relationship had stops and starts over the years, and Josh was a better person when Steve wasn't constantly in his ear. In a journal entry, Steve Powell wrote, quote, Josh talked on and on very openly about how he would love to get rid of her. He is not attracted to her, he said. He daydreams about having someone come to his door to report that she was killed by a drunk driver. Susan longed for a third child.

31:44 She had always dreamed of having a daughter to share her love of girly things. As bad as things got with Josh, she never gave up hope that things could change. She was an eternal optimist. However, in the summer of two thousand and eight, Susan contacted a divorce attorney. The attorney encouraged Susan to document their home and possessions before her husband caught on to the possibility of having to dissolve their assets. Susan made a forty five minute video of their possessions as she walked through the house. Today is Tuesday, July ninth, twenty ninth, two thousand and eight, and we are in the sixty two to fifty four West their Circle house. This is me hi, sorry, and it is can you see that? Eleven forty four am. And I am documenting all our assets just in case of any emergencies fire, flood, damage, disputes. And we have two Samsung monitors. And this is Josh's computer and there's some type of backup device and speakers. Here's the kind of pimping out stuff he's done to his computer. He built it himself.

33:01 I think there's like five hard drive something about giving raids. There's those for all the computer geeks. And Josh locked this, but this is all of his files. Me locked. Those are his files, and he bought expensive stuff like these are. I think this was like a couple of thousand dollars of like sis graphic design templates by stock layouts or something like that. All right, here's our unfinished basement. You bought three thousand pounds of wheat, and these are buckets of wheat. See this one whoops chemical free hard white week with mint green gum and red wheat with mint gums. So there's a whole bunch of boxes of or buckets of it. Here's a rigid saw.

34:01 I don't know the differences. I think this is a chop saw. Oh, there we go, says minor saw utility vehicle msuv. Oh that's the holding thing of it. And there is a shop back. This is all stuff bought in a year or less through home depot on my credit. Josh bought a lot of stuff and then he had to bankrupt it, and then he bought a little bit more on my credit. Three thousand pounds of wheat. Holy, that's a lot of wheat. That's a lot of wheat. I don't know if everyone knows this or not, but not all Mormons, but a lot of Mormons keep up to a year of food storage in their home in case of emergency or disaster, which is probably not a bad idea, but three thousand pounds of a lot. And also, that video went on for forty five minutes as she walked through the house, and they just they had a lot stuff. They did have so much stuff, tons of computer equipment, tools, gadgets, cameras, bikes, and even a three hundred dollars meat grinder. I don't know how we're not getting by without meat brinder. Yeah. Susan put a copy of the video in her safety deposit box and gave a copy to her friend Kursey Helwell for safekeeping. After she had received a raise, Susan started putting aside small amounts of money in a separate account that she hoped Josh wouldn't notice to start a life without him.

35:30 Several friends and coworkers were aware that Susan was planning an escape. Josh had warned Susan that he would make her life miserable if she tried to leave, and threatened her with a fierce custody battle. He threatened her that she'd never see her sons again, and she believed him. On December seventh, two thousand and nine, the last day Susan was seen, Josh called his dad just after noon to ask him for his pancake recipe. This was the last call Josh made for more than twenty for hours, around two pm, Susan called her friend Jovanna and asked her to come over to curchet with her. She was making blankets for Charlie and Braden for Christmas. She needed Jovanna's help to untangle some yarn that was badly knotted. They sat on the love seat together for two hours while Josh made pancakes for dinner with the help of the boys, and this was probably only the second time that Josh had ever cooked.

36:25 Jovanna was a newer friend to Susan. She'd heard from other church members that Josh was rude and not a good husband, but that day, Jovanna found him charming as he draped a blanket over Susan's shoulders when she said she was cold. He made them cream cheese pancakes topped with apple pie filling. Josh served them individually. As he made the pancakes, Jovanna recalled everyone being in a good mood that day, unpleasant to each other. Susan went upstairs to lie down after dinner. At about four thirty pm, she was suddenly exhausted. She'd been suffer bring from an ear infection for two weeks. She had thought she might be pregnant, so she didn't go to the doctor for antibiotics, and Josh also discouraged her from spending money on a doctor's visit.

37:10 But earlier that week, Susan believed she had suffered an early miscarriage. She had been horribly nauseous for a couple of weeks, but she got her period and the nausea had abated. She had taken a pregnancy test that was negative, but Susan was sure that she was. It's possible, though, that she was nauseous from something else. Josh might have been poisoning her. Okay, he didn't cook, but sometimes he made her probiotic shakes and he could have slipped something into the shake. Shocking. How many stories we've done where people poison someone with like a shake or a smoothie or something that they make for their partner. Yeah, you let me make you smoothing all the time. I must trust you. And pancakes. How are you feeling so far?

37:52 So good? Because the pancakes were like he would But that's how you make pancakes too. You don't make twelve, I mean you have to make pancakes and hand amount of time. Yeah, but because he was making them individually, thought possible. But something special, right yeah? Because she got really sleepy, right, you know, very quickly, and then went to take a nap. Jovanna stayed a little longer working on untangling susan yarn while she was napping, until Josh told her that she needed to hit the road because he was taking the boys and going sledding. He needed to lock up the house, so she needed to get going. Jovanna left at five point thirty. Josh, Charlie, and Braden left to go sledding in the newly fallen snow, although there are some reports that Braiden did not go, that he stayed home with Susan. A neighbor saw them return home from sledding at eight thirty pm. At eleven thirty pm, a neighborhood an unknown alarm sounding from the Powell home. Another neighbor thought that she heard a couple fighting, but she couldn't discern if it was Susan and Josh. We aren't sure what happened next. We only have Josh's account, but we'll get to that in a minute. December eighth is where we started when Debby Caldwell was alarmed when the boys weren't dropped off at her house for day care. The police recalled and Josh's phone was turned off all day. At three p m. Jovanna talked to Josh on the phone, and that's when she told him the police are here. They're waiting for you. Where are you? You need to come home. That brings us to five twenty seven. Jennifer tried to call Josh, but he didn't answer. At five thirty six, Josh called Susan's

39:24 phone and left a message, but her phone was with him in the van. At five forty three, Josh called Susan's cell phone again to tell her he was at Walls Fargo to pick her up from work. At five forty eight, Josh returned Jennifer's call. He claimed to have been at work all day, and Jennifer told him she knew that he was lying. She asked where Susan was. Josh light again and said Susan was at work. When she asked how the boys were, Josh said they were safe. Josh then asked a question that made Jennifer's blood run cold, quote how much do you know? She answered, Why do you ask? What have you done? What did you do to her? Josh hung up. At six pm, Jennifer drove back to Susan and Josh's house. Detective Ellis Maxwell met her there.

40:13 He asked Jennifer if he could borrow her phone to call Josh. Josh answered, and Detective Ellis told him to come home immediately. Josh said he needed to get the boy some food, but he'd be home soon. Can you imagine like the officer. Oh, he thinks he's talking to his sister and talking to the officer. Josh returned home to find Detective Ellis Maxwell waiting for him in his driveway. Maxwell began questioning Josh while the boys were still buckled in their car seats. Josh claimed that sometime between one and two AM, he, Charlie, and Braden had left to go camping. They didn't stop until four AM. Perfectly normal thing to do. It's totally hard to go on a camping trip at one an in December, record cold temperatures at least three inches of snow. Susan had stayed home. Josh said that he woke the boys up around seven thirty am, made a fire, and they had s'mores for breakfast. They hiked, played in the snow, and then drove along the trails before they headed home at noon. When Josh called Susan's cell phone, I thought they wait on our way back. And I can't believe that some now my brain is the day I'm not to day with Sunday.

41:27 That was really really CUTEID right, I'll not get any he thought it was Sunday. It's inexplicable. Yeah, they'd spent the rest of the day driving around. Josh claimed he didn't know where Susan was now. He assumed work. Their van was the only vehicle they had, and he didn't know how she had gotten to work. Josh said that he had forgotten about work until Monday morning. He said he got his days confused. That's just so weird, it's crazy, and then he didn't even bother calling. Detective Elis noticed two phones in Josh's van, both charging, despite Josh saying he kept his phone off most of the day because he didn't have a charger with him.

42:13 One of the phones was pink. At seven point fifteen, Detective Ellis asked Josh to come to the police station and bring his sons. Ellis would later regret this. Charlie and Braden's presence gave Josh an excuse to be distracted and not forthcoming. During the interview, Josh again recalled the events of the past twenty four hours to the detective. His story didn't make any sense. Do you know where Susan's at? No, when's the last time you seen her? Probably about midnight of last night? Where at home? What time did you go to bed? I started leaving. What could you guys talk about taking a voice more? And then you said you go in to bed, And then what did you do after that? Just loaded up the car and load up the boys and go up. Do you think she is danger right now? Do you think she's hurt? I don't think she was.

43:09 This work, which well, she goes places to put you on this work. I love how the detective is just like peppering questions like one after the other after the other. He's not a fan of Josh's, so I can't imagine that. Josh said they'd watched a movie the Santa Claus two or three, he couldn't remember, and then he'd taken the boy's sledding. When they returned, Josh decided to clean the love seat with a rug doctor that he'd reached recently purchased, but he didn't clean any of the other furniture. After midnight, he'd spontaneously decided to go camping with the boys despite a winter storm pounding the area, and Susan stayed home. She didn't stop him. She was okay with them leaving. They drove two hours to Simpson Springs, southwest of Salt Lake City. Simpson Springs was a stop along the Pony Express Trail where the horse we'rested or exchanged. There were dozens of abandoned mines along the trail. Overland stagecoach routes also passed through Simpson Springs. It is a remote and sparsely populated area, with little to no cell phone signal. The dirt and gravel roads can be difficult to travel in the winter. It is a popular spot for hiking and camping, but in the winter it would be desolate.

44:22 They slept in the car. Josh said he'd brought a generator and a heater to keep warm. Police went to investigate the area that Josh claimed to have been in, but they found no evidence of a fire or tire tracks, but new snow could have possibly covered up their tracks. Police did a flyover via helicopter and again saw nothing. There was a sheep herder, though that confirmed seeing a blue van on the morning of December seventh in the area, and when Josh was being interviewed by Detective Ellis, he actually mentioned seeing sheep, so it seems as if he was there before. Josh was allowed to leave the police station for the night. He agreed for his band to be searched. A blue tarp lined the back of the van, lankets, sleds, a gas can, tarps, latex gloves, a shovel, a rake, a humidifire, a circular saw, a handsaw, gram crackers, two knives, an electric generator, and a tripod. We're all on the back of the van. That's a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff plus two totes full of camping equipment were in the van. Missing from the van were food other than the gram crackers, warm clothes, and diapers for the boys. Before leaving the police station, Joshu relinquished his and Susan cell phones, but he tried to pull a fast one on them by removing the SIM cards from both of the phones. I think I asked you this the other day, but is all the information on your phone on this SIM card?

45:50 No? I think the SIM card only has the information that is specific to you, like your phone number and security information and things like that. So taking away the SIM card I don't think would get rid of all of your emails and messages and all of your data. During the interview, Detective Ellis noticed that Josh's hands were read extremely chapped and there were some scratches on them. What that could have happened too from camping in the cold weather, that could happen too, right, Yeah, At nine pm, Josh and his sons left the police department and went home. After Josh departed for the night, Detective Ellis had a sick, uneasy feeling. He didn't much like Josh Powell. He hadn't shown one iota for concern for his wife's safety.

46:35 He had been nervous and twitchy, only concerned for his own well being, and Josh reportedly spent the rest of the night meticulously cleaning his van. I'm with Detective Elis on this one. I don't like him either. This is a pivotal part of the case here. Josh gets to go home, he gets to clean his van, mm hmm. And you have to wonder why they didn't seize his right right exactly. Yeah, So I think that's something that Detective Elis and the rest of the police department regretted, letting him have access to his house after a possible crime had been committed. Yeah, I would say so. In the contrast, and we did that Allison and Jared baden Clay episode. If you remember, he reported her missing and it was suspicious right away because he had scratches on his face, and they immediately shut the house down. They roped it off, and it was like, yeah, no going back in the house. It's so hard because you don't know until you know. And I know they do their best, but yeah, sometimes I think the detective in this case thought to himself, there's not enough.

47:37 I'm not going to be able to get a search warrant. Yeah, I think that was the problem. Josh didn't call Chuck Cox until Tuesday, two days after Susan's disappearance. Chuck didn't like Josh, but for the sake of his relationship with his grandsons and to better position himself to learn more about what had happened to Susan, he was nice to him and referred to him as a superdad to the media. In the early days of the investigation, Chuck told the police that he didn't think that Josh was capable of hurting Susan. The Cox family wanted to focus on finding Susan. That was their number one priority. They did not go after Josh during the entire investigation. They were always careful not to accuse him of anything except for not being forthcoming with them or the police, which was totally true. If I went missing, I would hope that you would sit down with the police and tell them everything you know, and you would be calling them and asking where is my hope police, Yes, for sure, where's my wife? Right? And how is the investigation going? And Josh, you didn't do that. Yeah.

48:44 On the same Tuesday he talked to Chuck, Josh had an appointment for a follow up interview with the West Valley City Police Department. Josh was four hours late, and it's a really bad idea to show up to a police interview four hours late, but Josh was busy doing laundry, clean up his van and garage. During the interview, Detective Ellis Maxwell asked Josh if Susan could have taken her own life, and Josh said yes, but they only had one vehicle, right, and Josh had that So if she had taken her own life, where would she Where would he be? Yeah? Yeah, And the timeline is pretty narrow too, if Josh left between one and two am. As ridiculous as it sounds, Debbie Caldwell was there, you know at nine am, knocking on the door, right, and there was no answer. You know, they know Susan wasn't there. Yeah, so less than eight hours. Yeah, the whole story is full of holes. Doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make any sense. Josh admitted that he hadn't been the best husband to Susan. Before Josh left the interview, Detective Maxwell read him his Miranda rights. Josh didn't ask once how the investigation was going.

49:51 He was angry that the police had broken a window to gain entry into the house. He repeated this several times during the interview. Debbie called, well had key to the house and he didn't understand why they hadn't used her key. He was more upset about a broken window than his missing wife. This was not lost on Detective Ellis. While Josh was at the police station, Jennifer took Charlie and Braden to the South Valley Children's Justice Center to be questioned by a West Valley City Police detective named Kim Welti. Braiden was too young to answer any questions, but Charlie was able and willing. He said that on Sunday night, he went camping with his mother, father, and brother. He said they went on an airplane and flew to Dinosaur National Park and had s'mores. He said his mom had stayed at the park because it was so pretty and she liked the crystals. Charlie was aware that his father was at the police station being interviewed. He said it was because his grandparents, Susan's parents had broken a window at their house by throwing a rock through it.

50:52 Charlie's explanation is a little confusing, and remind me how old is Charlie at this point? So Charlie is four, he's almost five, He'll be five, okay. The previous summer, the Powells had traveled to the West Desert to the Dugway geode beds. You can search for geodes and when cracked open, crystals are inside. They had also recently visited Dinosaur National Monument. There is no Dinosaur National Park and Thanksgiving point. I think he just got all of those different places kind of confused, and as you do when you're four years old, right. He did have a good imagination too, A smart little guy. Later in twenty ten, investigators once again had a child psychologist interview Charlie. This time, he was much less willing to answer questions.

51:37 He'd clearly been coached do you know what happened to mommy, The psychologist asked, it's the big secret. Charlie said, I can't talk about mommy or camping. I always keep things as secrets. It's a really bad sign, isn't it. It's so sad that the kids were so intertwined in this story, and they were coached by a lot of adults in their life should have had their best interests but did not, but did not. In the summer of twenty ten, Charlie and Braden went to day camp. Three year old Braiden drew a picture of himself, Josh, and Charlie in a car. He told his camp counselor that they were going camping and Mommy was in the trunk. He said, Mommy and Daddy got out of the car and mommy never came back. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Charlie and Braden both repeatedly told their grandparents, quote, Mommy is in a mine unquote.

52:29 Isn't that horrible? Yeah? That is horrible, horror babies. Yeah, I think that's where we are stopping for it today. Oh, I'm sorry, it's okay, I'll try to wait. What do you think of Josh so far. I hate him, I really really hate him. I hate his dad and uh oh just wait, yeah, no, I know if you know this story, you know about Steve Powell, it's it's horrible. Yeah, we will get to Steve Powell next time and a little bit more about the investigation. What do you think Susan saw in Josh? That's a really good question. She was a beautiful young woman. I mean, yeah, she was nineteen, and yeah, she was a catch. I don't know. I mean, it's a great question. It's hard to he was this odd little guy. Yeah, he just every every like video I've seen or every you know clip I've heard of him, he just seems like a really just a strange guy, very awkward. Yeah. I was gonna say weenie, but a weasel. Maybe a weenie. Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, maybe he turned down the charm, you know.

53:31 I think sometimes people can do that, even if they're you did exactly, I fooled you into love, You're charming. Oh, I don't know. I don't know what she saw in him, and I yeah, hard to say. Curious what you think was going through Josh's mind when he was just like driving around the next day, and waiting two days to call her parents, Like it's just seemed that's just so bizarre to me that he just seemed like, I don't know, he had all the time in the world to do whatever. It was really bizarre because allegedly he left where they were camping, and that was a two hour drive back to their house at noon, So between two and like seven, that's five hours. What the heck was he doing? Yeah, and lying about being at work, like when obviously that is easily checked and easily disproven. It just seems like if you were trying to, like if you did kill your wife and you were trying to make it look like you didn't, he did everything wrong. Like he just brought attention and suspicion on himself for just bizarre reasons. Well, and Charlie, Charlie and Braden are you know two and four almost three and five, and they're not like mellow kids. There are rambunctious kids and for them to you know how I am about sleeping babies like that is one of like when we see we're out at night, When I see kids out at like yeah, little one like toddler's out at ten o'clock, I get so mad,

55:01 because babies need their sleep. If you want your kids to behave and thrive, they need a lot of more sleep than you might think that they need. And to have them sleeping in a cold van all night and to dry be driving them around, and yeah, you know, feeding them fast food. It's just none of it makes any sense. I should clarify that. Chuck and Judy Cox, Susan's parents. Josh called them two days after Susan had disappeared, but they were aware that she had disappeared because remember her, Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister had called them and some friends had called them, so they were aware. Okay, but still it was shady that he didn't call them and be like, you know, I'm really worried about Susan.

55:49 Yeah. Yeah, he did not do a good job with that. Remember the Chris and Sanan Watts case when Chris was shocked about all of Shnan's friends that within a few hours off we're going missing. This reminded me of that too. I think Josh might have thought people wouldn't notice, but so many people noticed so quickly. Yeah, and the police were called before he really got a chance to gather his bearings. Yeah, I was gonna mention that when you were talking about Debbie, Debbie was the one right who came by. Yeah like that. That was really yeah, really good on her part to be so proactive in trying to find out where she was right. It's good to have good friends. Yeah, as weird as it seems to you and I to go camping in the middle of the night. Josh was known to make very spontaneous and impulsive decisions, okay, and including the boys in it, like they didn't like when our kids were little, we were so strict about sleep and eating schedules and things like that. He just wasn't.

56:51 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's bizarre, but some some people do do things like that, I guess, but it seems it just seems so crazy, like at that and to camp in your car and snow falling and yeah, and to drive two hours at one am, you know, I think even that with a stretch for Jacks. Yeah, I was really upset about a news story yesterday that I heard. I know you were. I haven't seen you that upset in a long time. Joey's chestnut. He's been banned, He's been banned from the Nathan's annual hot dog eating kind of every July fourth we look forward to and I know people think I'm joking, but it's real, Like we if we're not going to be home, we record it and we watch the hot dog eating, as disgusting as it is, we watch that hot dogg incut. And every year, you know Joey Chestnut's gonna win because he wins by like I don't know, twenty or thirty. By thirty. Yeah, if I wanted to see someone eat forty three hot dogs, I just stay home and but you eat. No, it's really sad.

57:57 Though it's not going to be the same exact. I hope that there's something happens. I hope that there's a an apology and a forgiveness. And well, several years ago, the competition took a big blow when Kobayashian was banned for I can't remember why, but there was some controversy or whatever and he couldn't compete, which he was like the only one who could even come close to he won at least or yeah, I think he was like the guy for a while and then yeah, it's Joey's championships aren't consecutive. He's you know, lost a couple here. Why do you remember why Joey Chestnut got banned? That was kind of strange to me. Didn't he have a sponsorship with a vegan hot company, a company that makes hot dogs with beyond like fake meat essentially, And I guess that was too much for Nathan's hot Dogs? So, I mean, does he do commercials for Nathan's. Oh, I don't know. I don't think he does any commercials for Nathan you know, because he actually tweeted about this, so I was going to read his tweet, so he said he was gutted to learn from the media that after nineteen years, I'm banned from the Nathan's July fourth hot Dog Eating Contest.

59:07 I love competing in that event. I love celebrating America with my fans all over this great country on the fourth, and I have been training to defend my title. To set the record straight, I do not have a contract with Major League Eating or Nathan's and they're looking to change the rules from past years as it relates to other partners I can work with. This is apparently the basis of on which I'm being banned, and it doesn't impact the July fourth event. So well, I have started a petition you should. It's really an outrage. I think their ratings are going to tank. I probably won't be watching watched, and I may eat a Beyond hot dog on July fourth as a form of protest. You will not do I would.

59:51 I know that I've heard somewhere before that each time you eat a hot dog it takes seven minutes off your life. Oh god, Joey Chestnuts living on a few of at this point, that's really weird. I had never heard that before. I do think you trained for competitive eating. I'm not asking you for any reason. Rhetorical question. Do you think he rams up like you know julyfe Well, probably this this time of year is probably ramming up to like thirty six hot dogs, And yeah, I really could do that. I think he's not obese. No, he's not. I don't know how. I don't know how competitive eating works because most of those people are not obese like they're you know, they don't really look that as a sport.

1:00:37 So yeah, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It's uh, it's crazy. Well. Thompson's Pizza Ria over in Chelsea, Michigan, where they have the Monster Pizza that they do. I don't know when they do it. They do it once a year. I think it's October. Okay, it's for like Halloween. So it's like called the Monster Pizza and it's like a big pizza and four friends or three I think it's a team of four okay, and no one ever like hard, like if you can eat the whole thing, like you get it for free or you get like a prize or something. I don't know if I've never looked too far into it, but I follow them on Instagram, but it's always fun to see, like you know, they always post the people before and after, and there's always some pizza left. Yeah, I think a few people have done it, but it's pretty rare. I'm getting really hungry. Can we can we stop recording now and go eat? What do you? What do you want to? Binge? Eat hot dogs and pizza so not pancakes.

1:01:34 No being mad about the pancakes. No, I'm not mad about them, but uh they were they were good. Well. If you want to listen to all three parts of this case, join us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com. Slash Love Mary Kill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. The best part of Patreon is when we do these two or three part episodes, you can just listen to them all. Well. The is though then sometimes you have like a little bit of a Rich and Tina desert where you know this is going to be three parts that but you are going to paar us next week and I am going to work on the Patreon episode okay, which is actually has a tie into this case MM interesting. So please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on Instagram or Facebook, or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com if you want to send us a snack.

1:02:30 LMK podcast po Box one one one Dexter Michigan for eight one three zero And thank you for all your messages. Like when we get emails, we always we always talk about it, but it really it warms our hearts when we get nice notes from people. So we love we We do love you, guys and DESI hope, I hope you like this episode. We love you until next time. Don't kill your wife, Don't kill your husband.

1:03:16 To Companion to the