Susan and Josh Powell - Part 3

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm fabulous good. I feel a little tired. I've got my little co pilot Clover over here next to me, and we are both ready to hear Part three three, Part three, So this probably could be four parts. There's a lot, there's a lot of the story you left to tell, but we are going to do it all today, So it might be a little long. It might be a long episode, all right. We never know. We never know. Sometimes we think it's going to be long, it's not. But this document is twenty one thousand words, a lot of words. Yeah, we've got a lot of words left. So I do want to give a content warning.

1:07 This episode contains adult and disturbing content, including discussions of violence against women and children. Listener discretion is strongly advised. Today's going to be rough, all right. I will prepare myself. But before we get into it, I did I did bring us next, Of course you did. I brought you some cherries. Okay, why do you sound disappointed? I thought they were going to be dried cherries, and I was going to be disappointed. But these are fresh, dry cherries. I don't love dried cherries. They're okay, I don't know I love dried cherries. Yeah, you're a Michigan or you're supposed to love dried cherries. You're supposed to be dried cherries and everything neither, just like a fanci or form of a raisin. I don't like raisins, so but fresh cherries are excellent. They're not Michigan cherries. Though hopefully we are going to get away some time soon. By the time you hear this, we probably have already gone away to Traverse City and get some cherries up there. Yeah, they did bring you another snack too. I think you might have. Have you seen these in our pantry? Oh you haven't. Holy moly, you're gonna love me even more than you already do.

2:12 That's hard to imagine. But is it? Costco? The other day? And they are snappers caramel and brownie cluster, brownie crisps caramel with dark chocolate sounds good. I'm surprised these are still in the pantry. I don't know if you guys didn't see them. Well, I haven't had any sugar in like five days, so I'm really going to enjoy this. You were you might? All right, we'll be right back. So what did you think of the snappers? Those were really good. I was expecting something more brownie like, but it was more like a gooey, like a chocolate caramel candy type of thing. They're good, Yeah, they're really good. It's a dark it's pretty dark like the Brownie Party, like a dark chocolate, and the coating is dark chocolate. So if you like dark chocolate and caramel, obviously you would love these. I think they're great. Yeah, is that you should come up with a rating system? We should? So from one to ten? Do you think that's one to ten or do you want to do stars? One to ten is good? Two years in, we're finally going to come up with a system, all right, So I'm giving it a ten. I need I do it. I'm going to give it up. I'm going to give it a eight point nine. Okay, I mean they're they're really good. Yeah, why did you deduct one point one point. Well, honestly, I've only had one and I feel like I need I need to have more. So yeah, okay. And the cherries, what would you rate them? Ten out of ten? Cherry are we?

3:43 Cherries are great? Cherries are great if there wasn't they'd be even better if there wasn't a pit in the middle. Not much I cant cherries. I should have chewed it up and given it to you and taken the pit out and then no, all good? All right? Are you ready to wrap this thing up? I am? Shall I summarize? Sure? All right? Hi? Reading this summary that I wrote? Yes, thank you for writing this nice summary of parts one and two. Very short summary. But if you haven't listened to parts one and two, obviously you should go do that now. Susan Powell went missing on December seventh, two thousand and nine, from West Valley City, Utah. Her husband Josh left for a camping trip in the middle of the night with his four year old son Charlie and two year old son Braden. He said Susan stayed home, but his son said that Mommy went with them. Josh was not helpful in the investigation Susan's friends and family thought Josh had something to do with her disappearance. Their marriage had not been good for years. After Susan disappeared, Josh quickly packed their home up and moved with his sons nearly nine hundred miles away to Powalap, Washington. They moved in with Josh's father, Steve. Steve, who is a total creep, openly admitted that he was in love with Susan, but frustratingly, there was not enough evidence to make an arrest up to this point. But the only suspect was Josh Powell. The only thing that I should have added in there, Well, there's a lot of things I could have added in there, But Susan had left behind notes and clues and videotapes

5:16 saying if I go missing, I didn't go missing for any other reason than my husband probably had something to do with it. Yeah, she had that safe deposit box and they found the note in there that she wrote. When the spring of thaw arrived in Utah and April, investigators and trained searchers braved the chilly air and muddy terrain to search for Susan's remains in the Simpson Springs area along the Pony Express Trail that Josh had visited with his sons on December sixth. The mucky wet roads made it hard for vehicles to pass. Cursey, Helliwell, and Jennifer Graves came to observe, but they weren't allowed to help in the search. Cursey said, quote, there are twenty thousand minds in Utah alone. More of you include abandon of mine's in Nevada and Arizona.

6:01 If he killed her, he'd have dumped her in one of those, Jennifer said, quote, or somewhere else we haven't thought of yet. They both knew it was unlikely that Josh had willingly told law enforcement where exactly he'd put her body. They knew there was a slim chance that they'd find Susan, but they remained hopeful that their dear friend would be found and Josh would finally be arrested. Did you know there were so many mines? I knew there were a lot, but not that twenty thousand. Crazy makes you wonder how many bodies there are in minds out there? Well. Searching minds is extremely difficult and dangerous and shouldn't be attempted. Unless you are a professional. Most minds were dug decades ago, some as deep as two thousand feet so last night I read some are even four thousand feet deep. The earth is unstable and may crumble, collapse, or fill with water. Undetonated explosives may have been left inside the mines. Rattlesnakes and other wildlife might also live in the mind and oxygen is sparse. I saw a few different videos on people and mines and like your oxygen is fine, and then all of a sudden, like there's no oxygen. Yeah, it's really dangerous. Stephen Fluke, manager of the Abandoned Mine Reclamation Program at the Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining, said, no one knows how many mines there are and where they are located. Some mining districts can have one hundred or more mines, and some have multiple openings. Quote. A lot of mines are in pretty

7:31 rugged terrain that you would need a truck or an ATV to access. It's pretty dangerous even if you are prepared or skilled. End Quote. When we think of Josh disposing of Susan's body, it's hard to imagine that he was able to find a mine in the middle of a snowstorm and dump her body by himself. There were some sleds found in the van, so possibly he could have used a sled, But in the snowy weather like there was several inches of snow like new snow falling middle of the night it's dark, he wouldn't have been able to veer far off the trails because the trails are their gravel roads, and so it would have to be a mine that was very fairly close to a road exactly. The West Valley City Police Department searched the West Desert for weeks with the help of the Utah Department of Natural Resources.

8:20 The DNR made some maps of mines they thought were most likely for Josh to have left Susan's body, the mines that weren't too far off the beaten trail and weren't too far away. It was a week's long project initially after Susan's disappearance that expanded as the weather improved. Hundreds of mines have been searched over the years. Independent groups and hobbyists have searched for Susan in Utah's West Desert as well. On October sixteenth, twenty ten, Susan's twenty ninth birthday, friends gathered to release one hundred and fifty purple balloons and ate cake together on the one year anniversary of her disappearance. Her friends and family volunteered their time to charitable organizations in her honor. They were all heartbroken, but none more than Chuck and Judy Cox, who had not only lost their daughter, but were kept away from Charlie and Braden for eight months. So purple was Susan's favorite color, but remember when Shanaan Watts went missing, they also used purple, purple ribbons and balloons and things like that. And then there was another case, Aaron Corwin. I think purple was her favorite color, and they also used purple to symbolize that. Very interesting. If I went missing, what color ribbon would she use? Yellow? I do. Yellow is one of my favorite colors. The West Valley City Police Department became frustrated by the slow movement in the investigation. With no tangible leads or tips, they wanted an arrest. They decided to get creative. They launched what they coined Operations Tsunami in August twenty eleven. It was a sophisticated multi step operation that leveraged

9:56 the media and the Cox family and put increased pressure on the Powells. It involved a wiretap, a meeting at Red Lobster, cooperation with a local television station, and a convoy to the desert with the media. But it all started with a honk and wave. Do you know what a honkin wave is? I don't, but you got me thinking about Red Lobster Biscuits. Are they still open because they claimed bankruptcy? Red Lobster? Oh? I think there, I hope. So, well, what is a honkin wave? I have no idea, I guess. I mean, it's kind of what it sounds drive by somebody in your honkin' wave. I mean, you know when you see like protesters on a street corner support right exactly. Chuck and Judy Cox were encouraged by the West Valley City Police Department to hold a honk and wave for Susan Kersey. Helliwell organized a similar honk and wave event concurrently in West Valley City. The Coxes held a large banner that said remember me Susan Cox, ten thousand dollars reward. They stood in front of a grocery store on a busy street corner where the Powells shopped and pulled all up with friends and family, all wearing purple. They arranged the time to coincide with the Powell's weekly grocery run. Nice, a local television station, arrived to interview Chuck Cox just as Steve Powell drove up and jumped out of his car with his video camera grasped in his hand to confront the Coxes camera. And I thought, so I could just say yes, little shot. Yeah, I did, and I got okay, and I guess we're here. Yeah,

11:26 right right, I'm not. You are a though? Anyway? Is there any other question that I can answer for anybody? I'm I'm totally open to anything. I mean, We've got a lot of information about the Cox family, about Susan, A lot of it from her journals, a lot of it from Josh's. You know, he lived with Susan for eight years before she left. He knows a lot that is not in the journals. But the journals confirmed what he knows that Susan holding about the Fans, about her growing up with hes Ben. He basically Johns had an extensive interview with them the day or so after Susan disappears of arrogant and the way they handled the interview, and they know they handled it wrong. They know they screwed up. If you go back to December two thousand and nine, they themselves admit there's a controversy over the reasons Josh quit contacting them and got himself an attorney. There's a controversy within an internal controversy in the West Valley City Police.

12:26 It's because that was because they screwed up. And you know, as I told Josh, we should probably explain that on our website. We're not talking. I doubt that Josh will ever talk to the West Valley City Police arrogant, but he'll talk to the FBI. They just have to call. They know our number, they know my email. I contacted them three or four months ago about some possible lead that I had, but they don't you know, they'll contact me if they want to. They don't tell us anything about the investigation. The only thing they told us is they believes is alive. They've told us that, and Josh had nothing to do with her disappearance. That's what they told us. They told us a couple of other things that nothing about specifics about the investigation that was four months after for three months after we told them about the Steven Kosher possibility. We think that their investigation ended up probably had something to do with their conclusion that she's alive. They must have found something. I told Josh at the time, I said, they didn't they know she's alive. They wouldn't say they believe she's alive.

13:28 They know. Do you get the impression that Steve enjoys talking to the media and he's definitely rewriting history too. The police never said that they thought Susan was alive. Yeah, I didn't think so. And the fact that he just is like butting into this event that is in support of finding Susan just for his own yea, for his own like grandstanding, is just He's gross. He's mad about it. He's mad that they're there, you know, trying to get information about Susan's disappearance. Josh was at the honk and wave too, but he was more subdued than his father. He spoke tearfully to the cameras about how much he missed Susan. He had allegedly consulted with a media specialist about appearing more sincere. When he talked about Susan in front of the camera. Chuck realized that the police had used him as a pawn to coax Steve to divulge something about Susan's journal so they could request a search warrant for them. He said later, quote, so I'm the bait. That's fine with me. You know, I'm willing to help the police. They could have just told me what they wanted me to do. I would have done it. I knew what kind of words I needed out of Steve.

14:37 I needed him to say that he had the journals, say that they were important. I needed to give the police a reason to give a judge that they needed to get those journals back end quote. So, poor Chuck felt like the West Valley City Police Department was using him. They didn't tell him exactly what they needed him to do. They didn't tell him, you know, we need this information. But he was enough to figure it out. But I think he was annoyed that they didn't clue him into the plan. Yeah, I can understand that, and I think at this point he was really frustrated because they kept telling him we're close to an arrest, We're close, and they weren't. Yeah, a judge granted a wiretap to be placed on Josh and Steve's cell phones and landline. Over one thy eight hundred calls between the pall family members were intercepted by the wire Investigators discovered that Josh and Mike. Do you remember Mike. We talked about him a lot in the last episode. He is the fourth child of five. He's kind of this.

15:37 I mean, they're all pretty intelligent, but he went into the military, and he was the one that just dropped his car off and said, here, destroy my car. Destroy my car. Yeah, it's no good, even though we don't really know if the car was bad or not. Josh and Mike were communicating using advanced computer encryption that no one, not the police, the FBI, or even the software manufacturer were able to decipher. Can you talk about this for a second. I know you're not mister technology. I am not a computer cybersecurity expert by anyone, but this, like, how rare is this? I don't think it's that rare. I think I think so anyone could really do this. Ton of messaging apps that use encrypted communications. I'm not sure about this time frame, but there's a lot of messaging apps you can use that basically use encryption. So Josh had a lot of his hard drives were encrypted, and these messages were encrypted. Josh's hard drives I believe had five terabytes of information on them, and that's a that's a ton of information, right, A lot of bytes, billions of pay I mean, I know we've talked about this before. It's video and photos, it's a lot of data. Yeah. Shortly after the Honk and Wave event, Alina sent several pages of Susan's journals to the Associated Press.

17:02 Remember these journals are like Susan's, like teenage journals, and the teenage angst is real, and her parents didn't want these released, right, No. The Powells claimed that Susan had been abused during her childhood by her parents, causing her lifelong distress and low self esteem. This was a step too far for Chuck and Judy. They had never read the journals, but didn't want Susan's privacy violated. That filed a civil lawsuit against the Powells. The judge ruled in the Coxes favor forbidding any further publishing of Susan's journals. It's such a low thing to do, I know, it really is another step of operations Tsunami involved the television station Fox thirteen Seattle. The West Valley City Police Department gave inside information to Fox thirteen and they were tasked with confronting Josh or Steve on air with the new information. Fox thirteen would own the footage and they could play it unedited on air or online in exchange for playing their part, but the police would be allowed to use the footage as evidence. This was the footage from the Honkin Wave. We don't know what this insider information was exactly, and the videos are no longer available on Fox thirteen's website, disappointing. In May twenty eleven, twenty officials from the FBI, US Marshalls and the West Valley City Police Department raided Steve Powell's house. Those poor people, they have no idea what they're in for. During the Honkin Wave event, Steve openly bragged about possessing Susan's journals that he referred to as valuable evidence

18:33 that proved Susan was mentally ill. That was enough for a judge to issue a search warrant on Steve's home for the journals. Conveniently, at the time of the raid, law enforcement made sure Steve was out of the house. They arranged a false business opportunity for him three hours away at a red lobster. Who could say no to a red lobster? I wouldn't say no. The detectives knew they were sure to intercept some incriminating phone calls on the wire tap between Josh, Steve, and the other Powells. During the raid, Josh and his siblings sat anxiously in the yard while their home was being searched. They knew there was a mountain of damning evidence in the house. Pornography was in plain view, including pictures of Susan, some with her head transposed onto images of nude women. In John's room, a noose hung on the wall as a decoration, along with the drawing of a woman with a sword through her vagina. He also kept bags of hair and nail clippings. Oh my god, that's so creepy. Josh's room was the neatest. Detectives asked Josh for his computer passwords. He said he didn't remember them because they were too long and complicated. Some of the passwords were retrieved, but not for the hard drives. Officers overheard Josh tell his brother he was lying about forgetting his passwords. As they searched Steve Powell's home, law enforcement found the dark truth about his fixation with Susan. Following her disappearance, Steve's obsession with her

20:03 morphed into a twisted attempt to justify his extensive collection of photos, videos, and journals documenting her every move. He painted Susan as a willing participant. He implied that she was a temptress who had seduced him. Police and the media didn't buy it. Of course, it seemed Steve thought of little else but Susan. He was a sick, delusional, perverted man. Susan journaled from childhood until the time of her disappearance. Josh had brought the journals to Steve's house. Chuck and Judy asked repeatedly for the journals to be returned to them, but Steve refused to give them up. When Susan and Josh lived with him, Steve had stolen her journals and scanned the pages into his computer.

20:47 Investigators found more than forty five hundred photos and videos of Susan that Steve had taken. He stole many of her personal items, including her temple garments, which are considered sacred, nail clipping and used tampons. Oh my god. He kept them in marked ziplock bags in a locked filing cabinet in his bedroom. In photos from Josh and Susan's wedding, Steve had cut Josh's face out of the pictures. If that's not bad enough. Among his cash of pornography were photos taken with a long lens of neighbor children aged eight and nine taking baths or using the toilet. There were fourteen hundred photos of the girls. Oh my god, this guy, he's so sick. He is.

21:30 Yeah. Law enforcement seized financial records, flash drives, hard drives, fifteen laptops and desktops, and nine of Susan's journals. The detectives spent nine hours searching the house and then opened a safe deposit box at Steve's bank too, where they found another hard drive and some handwritten notes. Do we have any secret hard drives laying around? Make the amount of hard drives, I'm just baffled. I have one MacBook and that's all. I do have, like one old hard drip that I used to put all like when I would leave a job, I would put all my stuff on this hard drive, so I had it. I shouldn't say that because I'm not sure if that's technically okay to do, But I still have that hard show. So finanas to me. How many computers there are in this story? Can't get over it?

22:14 Yeah, A handful of pornography was found on one of Josh's computers. Pornography of a very specific variety toon porn. Cartoon pornography is the portrayal of illustrated or animated fictional cartoon characters in erotic or sexual situations, sometimes portraying rape or other aggressive sexual situations. Animated cartoon pornography or erotic animation is a subset of the larger field of adult animation, not all of which is sexually explicit. There were some four hundred tuon porn images on Josh's computer. Well known cartoon characters from The Simpsons and The Flintstones, Superman, and Dennis the Menace were depicted in a wide array of sexual activities, including incest, group sex, fallatio, and sodomy. I can't believe you're making me read this.

23:07 The majority of the cartoons depicted incest or child molestation, but There were also pictures of bondage and bestiality. The images were drawings or computer generated, not photographs, so it couldn't be defined as explicit pornography. Isn't that the weirdest thing? This whole story is just it gets weirder and weirder, and this whole family just they are just the worst. How do you sexualize Dennis the menace? It's so weird. I don't know, I don't know. During the raid, the officers noted that Charlie and Braden were ignored by the adults in the home as they all waited outside. The boys were starved for affection and food. When the boys said they were hungry, no one got them food. The officers ordered pizza for them and got them water. They played catch with the boys, who were happy to have some attention. Braiden sat in an office lap. The Powell House posed a challenge for the investigators.

24:03 The house was orderly, but horder like. Each room was lined with bookcases that were filled with Steve's vast collection of books. There were multiple computers in each room, boxes and boxes filled with files and paperwork. Officers needed to go through it all, and it was daunting. Charlie and Braden shared a room at the house. They slept together on a small futon. The room was lined with more of Steve's stuffed bookshelves. There were a few toys in the room, but it didn't look like a children's bedroom. The whole house looked unsafe and unwelcoming for a child. That just breaks my heart, because these two boys have been through so much, and the house, you know, as you can tell from all of these descriptions, was just not thous of horrors and not at all suited for these two young young boys. No, not at all. Steve appeared on Good Morning America. He talked about his relationship with Susan. Susan was very very sexual with me. She was very flirtatious. I mean, I'm her father in law, and she she would do a lot of things that that I mean, she was just she did it. I did. I mean, we we interacted in a lot of sexual ways because Susan enjoys doing that. Do you think a part of you started falling in love with Susan? That's pretty likely. Yeah, I mean I I yeah, I would say so, and and and there's no question in my mind that the feelings were mutual. This guy is so delusional,

25:37 and how is the reporter not like vomiting? I know, yeah, I can't think of anything more delusional than I've ever heard, No me neither. Steve continued, quote, it was definitely a romantic obsession. Yeah, you know, Susan's a beautiful woman, and when a beautiful woman comes on to you like that, it's really hard to resist that kind of thing. Unquote. Steve told police during an inn that he and Susan were in love and she was very sexual with him. His deepest desire was for her to be a wife to both Josh and himself. Josh appeared on Dateline and rebuked his father's claims. He didn't show up until after midnight for the interview, by the way, which is crazy, Like Dateline set up time with him, and that was just Josh. He did things on his own schedule and very strange. Josh was tired of hearing Steve talk about Susan. After the raid, he and Steve fought over the items found. Josh wasn't aware of the extent to which Steve had been obsessed with Susan. He didn't know about all the invasions of her privacy and Steve's excessive voyeurism. On September twenty second, twenty eleven, Steve Powell, sixty one, was arrested without incident and charged with possession of child pornography and fourteen counts of voyeurism. He was held on a two hundred thousand dollars cash only bond. No one paid his bond.

27:00 He remained in jail for many years to come. I would like to point out here that he was arrested for the pornography charges about the little girls, nothing about the voyeurism with Susan Right or any of the other weird stuff. Once Steve was arrested, detectives took Charlie and Braden from the Powell home into protective custody. Yes, here's how the officer recalled the event in his report quote. I turned around, I saw Braden running for me, with his arms reaching out and a big smile on his face. He immediately hugged me and I picked him up. He told me that he was happy to see me again. I saw Charlie near the van and he went to another detective, who picked him up. Charlie was interested in seeing the police lights and did not want to be put down. Neither of the boys had shoes on. I then went just inside the door where I knew the shoes were kept. I saw mister Powell, meaning Josh, in the garage, and he glared at me, but he did not call out to Charlie. Charlie took no notice. Once inside, Charlie helped pick out shoes for him and Braden. Braiden was chatty and giggly. He hugged me and told me he loved me. I explained that a CPS caseworker was going to take them to a babysitter for a sleepover. Neither of the boys seemed concerned, and they were never upset. In fact, they were quite happy to be going.

28:18 They did not ask for their father or any other family member. Charlie did ask if the babysitters were Mormons. I told him no, and he seemed pleased. Isn't that heartbreaking that these officers that the boys have only met once before, they're so happy to see them, like I'd love you and hugging them, and yeah, it is incredibly heartbreaking. I'm so glad that they got them out. Me too. Josh didn't say a word. He didn't say goodbye to his sons. He didn't make sure that they had a bag packed or had their favorite things. He didn't even hug them or say goodbye. Charlie and Braden were sent to a foster home, but they were soon placed with Chuck and Judy Cox. Neighbors stood in their yards and watched the drama unfold. As the police car pulled away from the house. They watched as Josh kicked his van for the next thirty minutes. After a tense court hearing between Josh and the Coxes, Chuck and Judy won temporary custody of Charlie and Braden. We'll be back after a break. Chuck and Judy were thrilled to have the boys live with them in the house that their mother had once lived in. However, things didn't go as smoothly as they'd hoped. They had no idea what the boys had been exposed to in the year and a half that they had lived with Steve Powell in his House of Horrors. On the first night at their house, after they'd bathed and put on their pajamas, Chuck found the boys running around the room naked. He had to calmly

29:49 tell them it wasn't normal. They told Chuck that their dad had let them sleep naked with them in his bed when Josh was also naked. Johnny, Josh's mentally ill brother, was also known to walk around the Powellhouse naked. The boys resisted authority and routine, They had night terrors, and because of their foster child status, they were both subjected to physical and psychological examinations. Braden had a rash called moloscomb contagiosum. It's caused by a virus common in children and easily spread by physical contact or by sharing bedding or towels. Small wartlike bumps erupt over the skin that may or may not become red, swollen, and itchy. There may only be a few bumps in a generalized area or many spread all over the body, most often found on the arms, trunk, and face. The rash can last between six to twelve months and usually disappears without medical treatment. Adults with moluscomb contagiosum may have bumps on their groin area and spread the rash to their partners sexually. Brayden did not go to daycare or have much contact with other children. Charlie did not have the rash. The doctor said that the possibility of sexual abuse could not be ruled out in Brayden, but the rash was not in his genital area. All that to say that we're not sure how he got this rash. It could have been a benign reason, but it's also possible that he was sexually abused.

31:17 The pediatrician noted that both boys were rambunctious and hard to control. In the confines of the office, they were jumping and running and open drawers and cabinets. The doctor stopped short of diagnosing Charlie nearly seven at this time, with ADHD, but recommended that if his focus and behavioral issues continued, he should see a child psychiatrist. Charlie was inquisitive. He enjoyed bugs in nature and being read to. However, he lacked empathy and had trouble interpreting social situations. He didn't like to share and took things that didn't belong to him. Brayden, almost five, had more overt behavioral issues than Charlie. The Coxes didn't have any pets, but there was concern he might harm an animal.

32:00 He cried easily and had tantrums. He also lacked empathy and had violent outbursts. He liked to hurt other children and adults. On one occasion, he punched a social worker square in the mouth. He was affectionate, but might as easily bite someone. He had an advanced knowledge about sex. Both boys had concerning behavioral issues and difficulty with impulse control. Charlie and Braden both remembered their mother and lovingly talked about her. Charlie told the children at school that his mother was dead and that the Mormons had killed her. So Charlie talked a lot about Mormons. So you know that in Steve's house they talked about Mormon right, yes, yeah, yeah. Josh was relentless in his attempts to regain custody of his children. Defeating Chuck Cox mattered more than Charlie and Braden's well being. Josh called the Coxes quote the most dangerous people on the planet. He told the judge that the boys were better off anywhere others than with Chuck and Judy. Josh had to be evaluated by a psychologist.

33:04 He was diagnosed with anxiety adjustment disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. Adjustment disorder is also called situational depression. It often occurs when someone is going through a major life event, like the death of a loved one or a divorce. Terry, Josh's mom, wrote to the court in support of Josh, despite Jennifer's protests. I don't think we've talked about Jennifer yet this episode. Jennifer is Josh's sister, the oldest Powell child. She was like the black sheep of the family, right, well, yeah, yeah, she was estrange from everyone, Terry said, quote. In my experience, Josh is a loving and very engaged father in the care of his sons, and Charlie and Braden are happy, well adjusted, at vibrant children, even though they missed their mother. Terry was still living with Jennifer at this time. Jennifer was so infuriated by her mother's support of Josh that she kicked her out of her house.

33:58 Wow. Josh was allowed to have a weekly supervised visit with the boys during this time of transition. The Washington State Department of Social and Health Services DSHS supervise the visits. The boys returned from the visits with their father embolden. They said things to Chuck and Judy like quote, don't mess with Josh or you'll end up dead. Wow. The psychological evaluation determined that Josh was not a danger to his sons. The report said that he quote had excellent parenting and interpersonal skills, but failed to consistently place his children's needs for an emotional, safe, and stable environment ahead of his own needs end quote. Sadly, DSHS and the West Valley City Police Department had limited communication during the investigation. DSHS was not aware that Josh was the prime suspect in Susan's disappearance.

34:51 However, Josh had been less than honest during his evaluation with the psychologist. Somehow he managed to beat the system. Josh was granted supervise visits twice a week under the condition that he not live in Steve's house. Josh rented a house in poll Up, just a few miles away from Steve's house. Doctor Elizabeth Griffinhall was the social worker assigned to the Powell case. She was a mother to four and adopted parent to ten, and a foster parent. She loved Charlie and Braden, and they loved her too. She found that Josh was anxious during the visits and planned every activity. He was often trying to teach the boys something above their age or interest level. Elizabeth continuously had to remind Josh to be present with the boys and not to interrogate them about their life with the Coxes. These visits with Josh terrified Chuck and Judy.

35:39 They didn't like the idea of Josh visiting with the boys with just one other person present, especially an older woman. Chuck stealthily followed Elizabeth on one visit and saw Josh in the backyard with Charlie and Braden without Elizabeth. She said that she was in the bathroom, but Chuck warned her that Josh couldn't be left alone with the boys for even a minute. Josh wrote the boys a letter every day that he wasn't with them. Here's one of the letters, quote, Charlie, I sure miss you. I was thinking of ways to stay close to you. Boys. You could tell me in your letters what you want me to bring to our next visit, perhaps a toy or a certain kind of food. Everything I do is for you. I love you, and I'm working hard to see you more. Love Daddy, So touching.

36:25 On December third, twenty eleven, almost two years to the day since Susan's disappearance, Josh sent a letter to his brother Mike. He told him about some changes to his life insurance policies. If something should happen to Josh, Mike would receive ninety three percent of the payout or two point three two five million dollars, Elena four percent or one hundred thousand dollars, and Johnny three percent seventy five thousand dollars of Josh's two point five million dollar life insurance payout. I had to do math there, yeah. Nice. Notably absent were Steve, Terry, Charlie, and Brayden. He told Mike he trusted him to do the right thing by the children. Mike never called or questioned Josh as to why he made the sudden change. On February first, twenty twelve, there was a custody hearing in the Powell case. Originally scheduled for November, the hearing had been postponed twice. Josh felt a new sense of confidence and peace that by the end of the day, Charlie and Braden would be returned to him. However, by the time Josh reached the courtroom, his hopes were dashed when his attorney told him that the judge was going to request further psychological testing. The judge was also requiring him to undergo a polygraphic examination as well as a PPG or a penile plusmograph, also called a psycho sexual exam. A PPG is a two hour test that measures blood flow to the penis while the subject is shown normal sexual situations as well as deviant situations.

37:54 Josh was crestfallen. He knew this latest roadblock would push his custom you fight back several months, and of course he knew it was unlikely that he would pass a polygraph let alone. The PPG test Isn't that crazy? It is, I've never heard of that test before. He attached like something to your penis and it you know, Yeah, it was if you're aroused or not. So they're basically trying to determine I'm guessing, like if he was aroused by things like child. Yeah. On February second, twenty twelve, Josh wrote another letter to Mike, giving him the rights to his life story and any intellectual properties. Josh thought there might be an opportunity in the future to make money from his life story. Josh always looking for an opportunity to make a buck, On February fourth, Josh withdrew seven thousand dollars from his bank account. He asked for it in one hundred dollars bills. He transferred the remainder of the money in his bank account to Alina's. He went to his storage unit, sorted through his belongings and threw some things away. He dropped some of Charlie and Braden's toys and books off at the Salvation Army and Goodwill. Last stop was the gas station. He filled two five gallon gas cans. Chuck and Judy Cox were concerned about Charlie and Braden's visitation with Josh.

39:08 After the way the custody hearing had turned out with Josh a few days earlier, they knew all too well what he was capable of. They called his social worker and voice their concerns. She brushed off their concerns and reminded them that Josh had been following protocol recently and wouldn't do anything to jeopardize his custody fight. The Coxes had expanded their house to make a larger room for the boys. The night of February fourth, twenty twelve, was only their second night in the new room. It would be the last time their grandparents tucked their Susan's beloved sons into their beds. After a rough start months earlier, the boys were doing well and had settled into their new routine. Charlie was tucked under his new Spider Man quilt and Braiden his Lightning mc queen quilt.

39:51 Chuck stood for a moment longer to watch his grandsons observing their beauty for a final time before he turned out the lake. On the morning of Sunday, February fifth, Super Bowl Sunday, Elizabeth Griffin Hall came to pick up Charlie and Braden for their visit with Josh. Chuck was at church, but the boys told Judy they didn't want to see their father. That day, before the boy's arrival, Josh sent out a series of emails to his boss, his attorney, some family members, and his pastor friend Tim Atkins. The emails all said the same thing, I'm sorry, goodbye. Elena received several emails Josh let the money he'd withdrawn the day before and asked her to pay some bills for him. He left her a final voicemail, Hello, this is Josh. I'm I'm going to say goodbye. I am, but not without my life, and I'm not able to go on anymore. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt. Goodbye. That's tough. A cousin who'd received an email from Josh called nine one one, but he did know Josh's address.

41:01 Elizabeth pulled up to Josh's house at eleven fifty seven am. The boys jumped out of the car and ran to Josh, who stood on the front porch. He shrugged his shoulders at Elizabeth. While she was exiting her vehicle and trying to catch up with the boys, he closed and locked the door. When she reached the door, she could hear Josh say, Charlie, I've got a big surprise for you. She pounded on the door and frantically rang the doorbell. Josh knew the rules. He wasn't allowed to be with the boys alone. As she continued to pound on the door, she heard a scream. She thought it was from Brayden. She could distinctly smell gasoline in the air. Elizabeth ran to her car to get her cell phone. She called her supervisor and then quickly called nine one one. At twelve o eight pm, David loverack an eighteen year veteran with emergency services answered the call.

41:49 We're going to play the call now. It's seven minutes long and it is hard to hear. Okay, Hey, I'm on a ship of myne visitation for a cord ordered to visit, and something really weird has happened. The kids went into the house and the parents, the biological parent, whose name is Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. What should I do? It's eight one one nine and I think it's eighty nine. I don't know what the address is. Okay, that's important for me to know, So I can't just gonna let me get my car and see if I can. If I can't find it, I'm nothing like this has ever happened before, uh these visitations, So I'm really shocked. And I could hear one of the kids crying, but they still wouldn't let me in.

42:42 Okay, it is uh one oh to Sineta, I have it here. You can't find me by GPS. Nope, Yeah, okay it is. I still can't find it, but I think kind of need help right away. He he's on a very short least for CSAHs and CPS has been involved and this is the craziest thing. He looked, drive out me and closed the door. Are you there, yes, ma'am. I'm just waiting to know where you are. Okay. It's eight one one nine one eighty nine straight or e pure hours nine eight three seven five. And I'd like to pull out of the driveway cause they smell gasoline and he won't let me in.

43:46 You wanna pull out of the driveway because you smell gasoline, but he won't let you. He won't let me in. He won't let you out of the driveway. He won't let me in the house. Who the kids in the house and he won't let me in. It's supervised, is it? I understand? Whose house is it? Josh Powell? Okay, so you don't live there, right, No, I don't know. I'm contracted to the state to provide supervised visitation. I see, okay. And and who is there to exercise their visitation? I am uh. And the visit is with Josh Powell and the husband that I supervised. So you supervised and you're doing the visit. Yeah, I supervise yourself. I supervised myself on the supervisor. Here, Wait a minute, the supervised visit you can't supervise yourself if you're supervise myself. I'm the supervisor to the supervised visit. Okay, well aren't you the one making Aren't you the one making the visit?

44:45 Or is there another your supervisor? Then I'm the one that supervises. I picked up the kids. That's their grandparents. And then who visits with the children Josh Powell. Okay, so you're supposed to be there to supervise Josh Powell visit with the children. Yes, that's cract. And how and here's the husband of missing Susan Powell. How did how this is the high profile case. How did he? How did he gain access to the children before you got I was one step in back of them. Okay, so I walked you out? Yeah, he hut the door right in my face.

45:29 Your last name, my name is Elizabeth Griffon Hall Ritt and Hall is hyphenated yes. And what's your phone number, Elizabeth? This cell phone number is three six zero nine nine zero nine nine five. And what agents near you with bust to carry first network? And the kids have been in there approx By now, approximately ten minutes. And he knows that it was supervised visit to Braydon is five and Charlie is seven, and the dead last name Powell p O W E L L who will two L's at hand of Powel.

46:40 Yes, his name, his first name is Josh Black white dad, he's white. I don't know. He's about thirty nine for five ten, one hundred and fifty pounds. Yeah, hair color brown. Did you notice what he was wearing? No? I didn't notice what he was wearing. Is he alone or is anybody? I don't know. I couldn't get in the house. You'll pre in a vehicle. Now we're on Twitter. I'm in a vehicle. I'm in a Trius on over TI ten trios color. The doors locked, but he won't. He has and opened the door. I rang on the doorbell and everything. Take him to let me in. Please listen to my questions. What color is the toyleta Prius gray? Start gray?

47:50 And the license number? I don't know. I can look HM seven h vibra Mary Henry. Yeah, all right, we'll have somebody look for you there. Okay, how long will it be? I don't know. Man. They have to respond to emergency, life threatening situations first the first available deputy. It could be life threatening. He went to court on Wednesday and he hits back and this is really I'm a great for their lives, Okay, has he threatened the lives of the children previously? I have no idea. All right, we'll have the first available deputy contact to thank you.

48:39 I find myself so so angry listening to that had to be filled with rage. Ultimately, the only person that was responsible for the events that we're about to talk about is Josh Powell. I guess so, but I'm just so I just feel like that nine one one operator did not handle that correctly. I don't I don't know if you went by protocol or not, but it just did not seem right to me. Right well, the call took seven minutes. Have love Reck dispatched emergency responders as soon as he'd picked up the call. The outcome may have been different, but we'll never know. Elizabeth moved her car down the street just in time. At twelve sixteen, the neighborhood shook as a loud boom ripped through the air. Josh Powell's rented house went up in a sea of flames, the sky dark and his dark smoke filled the air. Projectiles and ash flew through the air windows exploded from the heat of the growing fire. Elizabeth, shocked and devastated, felt helpless as she called nine one one again with tears traveling down her face. Those were my babies, she cried. Elizabeth ran to the neighbors to ask for help getting the boys out of the house. Alina Powell called nine one one at twelve twenty one pm after she'd received the voicemail from Josh, but she was too late. She didn't know Josh's address either. When the fired department arrived at twelve twenty two, the fire was burning so fiercely that they could do nothing to stop. The same police officer that had played catch with the boys on the day Steve Powell's house was raided, carried the bodies of Charlie and Braden out of the house wrapped in sheets. By the time Chuck Cox

50:12 arrived at the house, only rubble remained. He and Judy held out hope that the boys had somehow been rescued and taken to the hospital. Hours later, the police arrived at their house and told them the boys and Josh were dead. Some people thought it had been a horrible accident, but Chuck and Judy knew better. They knew all too well the evil that Josh Powell was capable of inflicting. As the news traveled to West Valley City, Kersey Helliwell, Susan's best friend Debbie Caldwell, Charlie and Braden's beloved daycare provider, Jovanna Owings, the last person to see Susan alive, and others gathered and cried together, remembering their friends. If anyone had any small grain of doubt that Josh had killed Susan, it was gone now. The murder suicide, it seemed, was an admission of guilt. Law enforcement visited Steve Powell in jail after Josh and the boys died. They were hoping he would finally cooperate in the investigation. He was shown crime scene photos, He displayed no emotion.

51:15 He refused to talk. He was put on suicide watch at the jail where he awaited trial. Josh had not tried to contact his father before his death. Many wondered if Josh left a confession, but he did not. A memorial of cards, letters, hand drawn pictures, flowers, toys, and stuffed animals was left for Charlie and Braden outside of Josh's rented house. A fence was erected around the crime scene to protect evidence. Charlie and Braden were found on a burned mattress at the rear of the house. It appeared that they had been holding hands. On the mattress was a hatchet and two knives. Both boys had been attacked with the hatchet at the back of their heads.

52:00 Part of their skulls were missing. However, they didn't die from the hatchet wounds. They died of smoke inhalation, with the hatchet injuries as a contributing factor. It was determined that they were alive at the time of the fire. Soot and gas were found in their lungs. Josh had doused them with gasoline after he'd struck them with the hatchet. Josh's body was severely burned. He had poured gas from one of the two five gallon gasoline cans throughout the house after he sat on the other gas can and lit a match. Absolutely horrific. I have no words for just the horror of what happened to these poor babies. It's so heartbreaking and just so unnecessary. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Why Why Josh, why couldn't you just let your kids live? You know? On February eleventh, on a cold and rainy Saturday, the funeral for Charlie and Braden was held. They were placed in a single coffin with a spray of orange gerber daisies. Orange was Braiden's favorite color. Over two thousand mourners attended the funeral, many wearing purple in honor of Susan. Charlie and Braden's teachers both spoke at their funeral.

53:10 Charlie's teacher spoke first. He was an amazing young man. He had an appreciation for nature that I have never seen in someone so young. He loved rocks, sticks, leaves, and bugs. He collected these items at recess and always had a hard time parting with them when it was time to return to class. He often left them by the outside door so he could play with them later. On many occasions, he tried to sneak a worm or caterpillar into the class. He was a good sport whenever I caught him, and he would make sure the bug was safe and sound before joining the class. He loved learning facts. He called nonfiction books real books, and he had an amazing ability to remember what he learned. It was obvious that Bredon loved his grandparents. At the end of each preschool day, he would look out the window to wait for his grandma to pick him up, telling everyone how much funny had with them and how much he loved them. He just leapt into her waiting arms. He had a heart of gold, always wanting to show affection. Braiden liked to hold his teacher's hand and not let go.

54:22 He was kindly with his grandparents, aunts and cousins, Teachers, classmates, and even first time visitors to the house were showered with Braiden's hugs and I love yous and always there was that big, beautiful smile on a face so like his mother's. Well, that is a job no teacher should have to do. No, definitely not At the funeral, Chuck said, quote. Throughout this trial, we felt the support of so many people around the world. We want to express our sincere gratitude. It helps us to know there are good people in the world, good people who fight against evil. Everyone was doing everything they possibly could do to keep them safe. We thank you very much. We know they're with their mother. Unquote. Before the coffin was lowered into the earth. The boys cousins placed stickers over the coffin of their favorite characters, mostly Spider Man and other good guys. When Susan is found, there is a plot next to Charlie and Braden's for her final resting place. The Coxes were ready for a fight to prevent the Powells from burying Josh anywhere next to the boys. Funds were raised by a nonprofit group to purchase plots in the cemetery to deter the Powells from burying Josh there.

55:36 In the end, his family decided to have his remains cremated. Well, you are made of iron to get through that section. It's tough. It is tough. We'll be back after a break. Michael Powell, the youngest Powell, joined the Army in two thousand and two and worked in military intelligence and the Army for five years. He was exceptionally bright and had likely coached Josh on how to handle police interviews. Susan had called him the sane one in the family. After leaving the Army, he majored in international studies at the University of Washington. He was an ambitious young man and seemed to have escaped Steve Powell's house the least scathed, but he was still fiercely loyal to his family and was always there when one of them needed help. In two thousand and eight, he ran for state legislature. He won the primary but lost the general election. However, he was chosen as one of nine delegates from the state of Washington during the Democratic National Convention in Denver. In twenty twelve, Mike, almost thirty, enrolled at the University of Minnesota into a pH d program for cognitive science. Detectives from the West Valley City Police Department visited him. He was calm but not forthcoming until they asked him about his board touris. He suddenly began shaking. Learned that Mike went missing from December fourth through the twelfth. We talked about that earlier, the same week that Susan went missing. On February thirteenth, twenty thirteen, a year after Josh

57:09 had killed his sons and ended his life, Michael Powell, thirty jumped from a seven story parking structure. He died on impact. At the time of his death, he was embroiled in a lawsuit with the Cox family over the life insurance money from Josh, Susan and the boys. Steve was told of his son's death and said, oh my God, Oh my God. Then, in true Steve fashion, he blamed law enforcement for the stress from their ongoing investigation that caused Mike to take his own life. Mike knew the police investigation was now focused on him and they were closed to an arrest. He did not leave a note, and we don't know what evidence that the police had against Mike. After the deaths of Josh, Charlie, and Braden, while Steve sat in jail awaiting trial, he was approached by prosecutors to make a possible plea deal in exchange for information about with Susan's death and whereabouts, but he refused. Steve's trial began in May twenty twelve. The judge was cautious with the jury because Steve was a high profile defendant. He reminded the jury that Steve was not on trial for murdering Susan. He didn't want them to be prejudiced against Steve for Josh's crime. The judge threw out the pornography charge. Steve now only faced the fourteen count voyeurism charge. His attorney alleged that anyone in the Powell house could have taken those photos of the girls.

58:29 Steve did not to testify in his own behalf. He showed little to no emotion during the trial. Jennifer, the oldest Powell child, testified for the prosecution. Alena came to court every day of the trial. After six hours of deliberation, the jury found Steve guilty on twelve counts of voyeurism. Two of the counts were thrown out. He was sentenced to thirty months in prison and thirty six months of probation, and would be required to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. What do you think of that sentence? Seems a little light for basically who he is, and he was probably already he had probably already been in prison for almost that long, right, yeah, yeah. After the verdict, Alena said, quote, my family was automatically convicted two and a half years ago. Since then, I have lost a sister in law, a sister, a brother, two darling nephews, and a great dad to an immeasurably complicated situation that even I don't fully understand. End quote. In March twenty fourteen, after serving his sentence, Steve Powell, sixty four, was released from prison. He moved in with Alena in Tacoma, Washington. He was closely monitored, required to have frequent check ins with his correction officer, and had to complete a sex offender treatment program. The House of Horrors Alena and Johnny had continued to live in while he was in prison was sold to the mother of the two young girls that Steve had photographed for restitution. In July twenty eighteen, and age sixty seven, Steve Powell died from heart failure in a Tacoma, Washington hustle.

1:00:00 He made no deathbed confession and didn't leave behind a letter or any clues. He may have been the last person alive who knew what happened to Susan. In February two thousand and three, Steve wrote, quote, it's very problematic to be madly in love with your son's wife. I am so madly in love with Susan that I would do something desperate to have her. I included that quote just because Steve was so fixated on Susan. It seemed like that was the only thing he ever thought of. He had all this pent up sexual frustration. I'm sick man. Yeah, but I'm kind of surprised he never attacked her. Yeah, sexually assaulted her that we know of. I probably have too much empathy, but in this case, I have some empathy for Alena Powell, the youngest Powell. I think she's a tragic figure in the story. She never lived anywhere but in her father's house. She was relegated to household duties such as cooking and cleaning, and taking care of Josh's kids and Terry and Steve's divorced documents. Terry claimed that Josh and Johnny had inappropriately touched and examined her private parts. As a young child, Alena was clinging with Terry and didn't want to be left at Steve's house. Steve made her sleep and his bad and when she was a child she began gaining weight.

1:01:21 Terry was given custody of Elena, but eventually she asked to live at Steve's house full time, partially because she wanted to be with her siblings and Steve was just such a permissive parent. Alena lost almost her whole family, Steve, Josh, Mike, Charlie and Braden. They were all gone and she the only one that she had left was her mentally ill brother. On the afternoon of February fifth, the police showed up at Steve Powell's house, a house once full of Powell's was now only home to Elena and Johnny. The police wanted her cell phone so they could see the final messages Josh had sent her. She refused to relink hislinquishment phone. They returned with the search warrant. In an interview with ABC News, she still defended her murderous brother.

1:02:07 She said that he was quote damaged by the lack of due process and harassed, abused, and light about. She remained adamant that Josh had nothing to do with Susan's disappearance. For that, I have no empathy. In late two thousand and nine, one of Steve's sisters had rented a house in a remote wooded area outside of Salem, Oregon. All of the Powells were welcome at the property any time. In May twenty thirteen, the one hundred and eighty acre property was searched by law enforcement. The search warrant was only for the property, not the house. Susan's remains were not found, so I think they were thinking that maybe this was one place that she could have been. Soon after, the West Valley City Police Department informed the Coxes that they were closing the active investigation. The one good thing about this is that Chuck Cox was given access to all of the files in the case, and he continues to investigate on his Over the years, the Cox family was given false hope several times that Susan's remains had been found. Whenever female skeletal remains were found, police would notify them to warn them about the impending media frenzy.

1:03:15 In August twenty eleven, law enforcement received what they thought was the most credible tip to date about Susan's whereabouts. An abandoned mine in Ely, Nevada, about two hundred and fifty miles from Salt Lake City on the border of Utah and Nevada, was searched. Josh had googled Eely at five thirty pm on the afternoon of December sixth, two thousand and nine, the day Susan disappeared. The area was desolate and barren, the mines not active since the sixties. The West Valley City Police Department invited the media along to the search. Over fifty law enforcement agents and search and rescue teams combed the area, but again the search came up empty. The search was called a side show.

1:03:58 The entire endeavor was part of opper Uration Tsunami to make the Powells feel the pressure of law enforcement closing in on them. The West Valley City Police Department hoped the wire tap would capture some panicked conversations from the Powells. Reporters were frustrated that they'd made the trek to the desert for nothing. They had been promised new information in the case, but they were given nothing new. A month after the ely search, another search was conducted after detectives poured over photos of Susan and Josh they had found on his computer. The couple had spent time near Topaz Mountain, a popular tourist area for rock and crystal enthusiasts one hundred and thirty five miles from West Valley City and about thirty miles southwest of Simpson Springs. Topaz Mountain is known for its rich deposits of topaz, a gemstone of various colors including sherry, amber, and pink. In addition to topaz, the area is also known for other minerals such as red barrel, amethyst, garnet, and opal. It is one of the few places in the world where topaz crystals occur naturally exposed on the surface. Okay, remember when Charlie was interviewed by the police. Initially he said something about mommy, is she stayed with the crystals? Yeah, so that's why this could have been significant. Search and rescue teams repelled into old mind shafts wearing lighted helmets. They dropped cameras into mine shafts too narrow for a man to pass through. The only thing of interest that was found was the remains of a

1:05:29 fire pit with charred wood. Police could not rule out that it had been used to burn human remains or clothing. The search lasted about a week, but nothing of importance was found. It's so so frustrating. This so frustrating. I haven't been able to find her. In February twenty twenty two, Chuck and Judy were optimistic again after clothing and skeletal remains were found in a mine in Utah's West Desert in the Ironside's Mine by the Diesel Brothers, who had a TV show on the Discovery Channel. In the search of the mind, bones and a pair of pants were found. Unfortunately, lab results revealed that the bones were not human and the pants likely belonged to a man.

1:06:10 Chuck Cock's in a statement, said, quote, it is my belief, based on Josh's murder of his boys, that he would be very capable of dismembering Susan and dispersing parts in several locations the search goes on. This effort also has resulted in numerous agencies now determined to work together, sharing resources and information with a renewed goal to find Susan. Sadly, however, Susan's remains have never been located. Chuck Cock still occasionally tags along on mind searches. In June two thousand seven, Josh had increased his family's life insurance policies to two point five million dollars. The insurer, New York Life, wasn't clear if it was required to pay out on the policy because Josh had murdered his sons and taken his own life. They went to to settle the matter.

1:07:00 The court ruled that the insurer was obligated to pay out the policies. In twenty fourteen, a federal judge decided that the two point five million dollar payout from the life insurance policies should be divided between Josh's beneficiaries and the trust for Susan, which her parents oversee. The trust will go to Susan's heirs. The Coxes argued that the Powell family should be ineligible from collecting any insurance money, based on a Washington law that prohibits criminals from collecting life insurance money. The judge ruled that would be taking the law out of context. So the net of what we just talked through is that the Powell family did receive some of that insurance. It was split in half. Okay, Chuck and Judy Cox sue the State of Washington on behalf of Charlie and Braydon for wrongful death.

1:07:51 The lawsuit accused the state of negligence for not protecting the boys and putting Josh's parential rights before the children's safety. The Coxes asked the jury to award five million dollars for every minute of conscious pain and suffering that Charlie and Braden endured on February fifth, twenty twelve, from the time they entered their father's house until they died. From smoke in elation. Several minutes later, Chuck argued that the state was the only entity that could have saved the boys. He and Judy were considered the boy's foster parents and were unable to make decisions on their behalf. Only dshs could. The Coxes had warned authorities that Josh would do anything to win the custody war, and he was capable of great harm. On July twenty ninth, twenty twenty, a jury awarded ninety eight point five million dollars in damages to the Cox family, finding the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services negligent. The jury believed a systematic failure led to the boy's death. However, the judge in the case produced the reward to thirty two million dollars sixteen million dollars for each boy. The Coxes appealed the judge decision and the State of Washington requested a new trial. In April twenty twenty three, the Washington State Court of Appeals reinstated the original ninety eight point five million dollar judgment awarded to the Coxes. The state is expected to appeal this decision to the Washington Supreme Court. I'm not sure if there's been any movement on that, but I couldn't find anything else on that wrapping up.

1:09:24 Elizabeth Griffin Hall was devastated. She blamed herself. She threw away the clothes she wore that day. She never again worked full time, and when she returned, she took easier cases, although she'd always prided herself and working on the hard cases that other people avoided. The explosion was so strong, in the fire so hot. She was lucky to have survived, although she would have traded places with Charlie and Brayden at a heartbeat. She did everything she could. David Loverack, the nine to eleven dispatcher who received the call on February fifth, was admonished, but didn't face serious punishment or firing. A letter of of reprimand from his supervisor was placed in his personnel file. It's set in part quote, the public trust has been shaken. Formal discipline is necessary inappropriate. Could you have handled the call better? Yes, and you have been the first to admit that you have undergone local and national scrutiny.

1:10:16 You have admitted your errors and have identified the ways you will correct and improve your call handling. In the future. Wow, isn't that shocking? I mean it is pretty shocking. Yeah, I mean I have empathy four nine one one operators because I would not be able to do that job. I think it would be really hard. But it just felt like he handled it so poorly. He didn't It was a jerk on the call to her, and she was trying her best, not defending him. But imagine living with that for the rest of your life. You know that guilt. Love Rec violated four protocols during the call. He deeply regretted his tone on the call. He said he did not know who Josh Powell was. Love Rec sent officers to the scene seven minutes into the call. He marked the situation as a priority too, indicating to the officers that someone at the location was in imminent danger. He talked to Dateline and said, quote, especially for somebody who has done this for as long as I have to re listen to the call and hear how clumsy and faltering I sounded, it was horrible.

1:11:17 This has been a nightmare realizing what we all now know. I wish I had recognized the urgency of the situation end quote. Yeah, I wish she had to not that, you know, it may not have changed down matter, probably wouldn't have just given the I think the explosion was only a couple minutes after the nine one one call ended, right So, Around the time of Steve's trial, a former co worker contacted Anne Brummer, the attorney for the Cox family. She had an interesting story. She said that around the time of Susan's disappearance, Steve had told her he was heading to Utah to go camping with family. She was surprised he was going camping in the winter. When he returned, he said that he'd had a great time singing around the campfire and making small But if Steve had been there, wouldn't Braden and Charlie have remembered him being there? Yeah, you would think so, because they did have memories, it seems like from that night. But could they have well, remember they made smores the next morning. They didn't really have any memories of the night, so it's possible that maybe they had been drugged as well. Oh yeah, and it was one in the morning or whatever when they left, so they could have been asleep or drugged. Jennifer and Kirk Graves had planned on adopting Charlie and Braden. Chuck and Judy Cox love the boys, but they knew they were better off with siblings and younger parents.

1:12:31 They wanted to be grandparents, not full time parents. Jennifer was She was devastated when the boys were killed. Dah can imagine. The search for Susan Cox Powell is the largest missing person investigation in US history. Deserts, ponds, rock quarries, swamps, four hundred mines, and a landfill were searched, eight hundred tips and eleven states were investigated, and nine hundred people were interviewed. On the tenth anniversary of Susan's to say appearance, the West Valley City Police Department set in a statement quote, although all leads in this case have been exhausted and the case has gone cold, we stand ready to act on any new information that might provide resolution in this challenging case. Over the years, Jennifer has come to believe that Michael helped Josh hide Susan's body after the murder, but Ellis Maxwell disagrees he thinks Josh acted alone. Speaking of Detective Maxwell, he retired from the West Balley City Police Department and went back to school to study psychology. We'll rest in peace to Charlie, Braden and Susan. Charlie was funny and bright. He liked animals, science, bugs, books, and superheroes. Brayden was smart, with a big imagination and bountless energy. He loved to do puzzles. Chuck said he was giggly and mischievous and looked like Susan. He was a tickle monster and he loved vehicles. Susan was strong, kind, loyal, and beautiful. She was an amazing friend. She worked hard at everything she tried and loved her sons more than anything. Charlie, Braden and Susan are loved and missed by all

1:14:01 who knew them. The Mormon faith believes that you are reunited in heaven with your family after death, and I hope they are all together. Hope so too. So that is the tragic story of the Powells is a really, really tragic and sad story. Yeah, it's very sad. Do you think that Josh acted alone? I don't know. What's the biggest question for me is if he had help or not. Yeah. I would not be surprised if his brother helped him, just because of the fact that you know, it's not normal for your phone to go dark for seven days in a row and to be like to disappear for seven days and just coincidentally right at that time. Well, and the guilt, Yeah, and I'm guessing he took his life because he felt guilt, right, Yeah. And the car, Like, the car is really strange too, Yeah, I wouldn't to me, I don't know. It seems less likely that Steve was directly involved just because he was so in love with Susan and so obsessed with her. Or could he have just been frustrated beyond belief that she had turned on him he couldn't have her. Yeah, I mean it's possible, but it seems less likely to me. I think it's really frustrating that the only person in this whole story that was charged was Steve and it was a crime that had nothing to do with Susan, right, and for the crime that he was convicted of, he didn't really spend very much time in prison. In my opinion, it should have been it should have been worse. So, yeah, it's very frustrating that no one there was no justice in this case. Well, in the crimes Steve was charged with voyeurism, but what about the crimes

1:15:34 against Susan and her privacy. Yeah, I mean it seems like that was talking. Do you think that Josh there was enough evidence to charge Josh in this case? It sure seems like it to me. I mean, it seems obvious that he was involved. And I know it's difficult with no body and you know, no murder weapon or things like that, but it just seems so obvious that he he did something and she was obviously disappeared. So yeah, I know it's not direct evidence, but when a woman leaves behind a note that says if I am found dead, my husband did something to me, I think that should be worth something. Yeah, And there was nobody else that any evidence pointed to, So yeah, it seems like there should have been enough evidence to charge him. Where do you think Susan could be boy? I mean, I wish, I wish I knew. You know, that's one of the most frustrating things about this case, I think is that there's no closure, you know, for the family. Do you think that she was killed in their home? I think so, yeah, because I think there was blood. There were drops of blood at the door, right, and the fact you've talked about it I think in either part one or part two, the fact that there was like no DNA or no evidence in the van, you know, no hairs or anything like that, to me says that he must have wrapped her body very very tightly in a tarp or whatever. So yeah, I think and the whole thing, the cleaning, the carpet and the love seat and the fans in the house, he was obviously cleaning up something that he didn't want people to see. Do

1:17:08 you think he could have left her body in the house and Michael and or Steve picked her body up and took her somewhere else when he was out camping with the boys. Oh, I never thought about that, But I don't know, because that night it was snowing, right, so they would have had to come in the middle of the night, and there probably would have been tracks left or something in the driveway, right. Well, I think it had snowed well there the morning after when Debbie called well went to the house. There were no tire tracks in the snow then, So, I mean, who knows when the brother and and er stilla. Yeah, I guess. I don't know when it started snowing or when if they had gotten there before, so could have been covered up. I guess. Yeah, here's another weird story. So remember back in the beginning, like Josh, for a short period of time was a real to her, and I think he might have still been dabbling in that. But could he have dashed Susan's body in one of the newly constructed houses. I mean, I suppose anything as possible. Yeah, cadaver dogs were brought to that area where those new houses were. None of them alerted. But someone this was a weird story.

1:18:15 But someone bought one of the houses and said that when they toured the house that there was a smell of decay so strong that they had to leave the house. Interesting. During the time of construction, there was a big construction dumpster in front of the house and it was dumped in a landfill. The landfill was searched an area of two football fields long and ten feet deep and nothing was found. Okay, so Josh you said this before, kind of a whimp, not very strong, never worked out, and Susan did. I think she was pretty strong. So she must have been drawed because I think she would have been able to fight back otherwise, Yeah, that would make sense because it was winter and it was really cold. Definitely, Susan was a grave, was not Doug, so she must have been dumped somewhere else. Yeah, I think the mind shafts is the most likely thing, just the fact that there are so so many of those and it would have that to me, would probably be the most likely explanation. Do you remember that Josh purchased in a subtlen torch. Could he have dismembered her with that? I don't know what you used that for. I don't think you could dismember a body with a torch. I mean you could, no, I don't think so. So I think about the investigators in this case all the time, like the people that had to go through all of the tapes and pictures and listen to Steve's horrible music. I hope those people got help.

1:19:45 I feel like I need help after listening to one of Steve's songs. But yeah, on a more serious note, you're right, having to look through all that stuff would be traumatizing. I would think, absolutely, Well, I think that's all I have, great job, that's a boy. You really went deep on this one, and well, I couldn't have done it without the cold podcast. And I can't say that enough. And the book that I read, If I Can't Have You Susan Powell, Her Mysterious Disappearance and the Murder of her Children by Greg Olsen and Rebecca Morris. And thanks to our friend DESI for recommending this episode and almost killed me, but yeah, thanks, it was a good one. It was. I have one more thing to mention about the case. In February twenty ten, Chuck and Judy Cox started the Susan Cox Powell Foundation, a nonprofit registered in Washington State to help families of missing people and raise awareness of domestic violence. Each year, at Susan's vigil, Chuck meets people who come to pay their respects to Susan and thank him for being an advocate for victims of domestic violence.

1:20:50 They tell him Susan's story it inspired them to leave an abusive partner, and to Chuck, that makes it all worth it. Well, as I always say, I'm just so impressed by people who are victims of crime that turn it around and do something. These families are amazing. Yeah, so much respect and love for them. Yeah. I hope you guys are all okay after listening to that, because that was a lot of tragedy there. That really was so. On our last episode, which was last week for you guys, but yesterday for us, we got our new peloton and you and I both had our first peloton workout. Yes, it was interesting. It was interesting. That's the best you can do. I know, no one wants to hear about my crotch, but my CROs that he hurts. That was it was painful, and I guess you're supposed to adjust to it, but I'm like, I don't know how I'm gonna adjust to that. That bike seat was a little a little hard. Yeah, yeah, but it was fun. I mean it was. Yeah, it was a good, good experience. Yeah, I liked it. I think I'll stick with it.

1:21:55 I'm gonna I promise this is the last time we're gonna say, oh no, we're gonna talk about it every episode. Who's your favorite instructor so far? Gosh, I'm not a fangirl of really many people other than you, I'm your biggest fan. Well, you never know, as you get into more and more workouts and you see more and more instructors, you might be you might be inspired. And the instructor was good that I mean, I just took the like the twenty minute introductory class, and like fifteen minutes in, I was like, I'm not going to be able to do twenty minutes, not because the workout was hard, just because it's your buttless. No, you did order the softer seat, right, well, I think you were upstairs. You were going to bad. When I was doing the workout, I messaged you and said, I'm one hundred percent sure that everyone after they get off the bike for the first time, Google's more comfortable seat.

1:22:42 It was kind of tough. Yeah, well, happy Independence Day. Weak. Oh yeah. This is going to be airing the week of July fourth, holiday week, so you'll have everyone. I hope has a short week. I hope everyone has a safe holiday. I hope you follow the rules and be careful with fireworks. Carefully fire you to lose any appendagenes, guys, or anything like that. A gentle reminder that if you enjoy our podcast, or any podcast for that matter, the best way to show your appreciation and support is to leave us a five star rating or review. Rich and I both and it is just us work very hard to produce this podcast. If you've already left a review, and I know a lot of you have. Thank you. We appreciate you listening and hanging out with us so much. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on Instagram or Facebook, or send us an email at lovemarykillat gmail dot com and consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill. We just have one tier five dollars a month and you get early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Finally, if you want to send us a snack, you can send it to LMK podcast Pobox one one one Dexter, Michigan four eight one three zero Until next time. Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife, Steve play us out. I said, I love you? Is that a crime? And what if I said to you one more time? My

1:24:13 love? So put me in jail? I said, I am. I couldn't help it, and you were mistaken if you thought I self that I love you, said cop of my hey, my ayes, pop out up there the sockets. You could empty all my pockets. This where takes is a rough inside of you came along and really not my son song. Now you're all life. They can't talk so much, told my former shall my aunt sair I love. Is that a crime emported