The Menendez Family - Part 2 of 3

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill. Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I am doing great? Do you think our listeners realize what we do? When it's your episode, you say, hi, I'm rich first, and when it's my episode. Do you think anyone has figured that out? Probably? Not, like it's some big secret, but it's just something we do.

0:43 It just made it simpler for us because every time we would record, we'd be like, well, are you going to say it first? Or am I? And then we said, well, let's just do it. If it's your episode, you say it, and vice versa. All right, we're letting you in on the fourth wall today, showing you how things are done. Breaking down that fourth wall. One thing that happens, speaking of breaking down the fourth wall, is when we have multi part episodes. Because we give our patrons early access to all the parts, we have to record the whole series within a few days and weeks. In this case, all three parts of the Menendez. Case we're recording them still. It's Sunday, January twenty fifth. The winter storm Fern is still going on, and we're boring. We're boring. We don't have anything to talk about because we recorded yesterday.

1:28 And I didn't know the winter storm had a name. Yeah, they started naming bad winter storms a few years ago. I think I could be wrong, maybe they've done this for a long time. But yeahern Bern is upon us. Okay, not so bad. I mean, probably more snow than originally. They were like one to three. It's probably going to be at least five. I would guess we're fine. I just don't like the long stretches of like weeks and weeks with it not getting above you know, fifteen twenty degrees. Just like a break once in a while. That's all I would care for. Yeah, I would love to take a walk. Yeah. I almost had to cancel our recording today so I could clean the house. There's something about this time of year. Everything feels grimy and dirty and dusty.

2:08 You get these modes once in a while. Yeah, and that's your favorite, Tina. When I'm in the middle of a cleaning frenzy. Sometimes some days when I sense that you are going down that. Oh I've got some meetings. I got to go close my door. Yet, Yeah, you are not the best helper when it comes to cleaning unless I get help. Well, I have to tell you. I mean I don't want to, you know what, open too many podcast secrets here, but you know I get irritated when I have to do it all. But there are some things that you are very helpful. But before we get into today's episode, I'm going to give you an opportunity to look like you're really smart or maybe not. Do you want to give us a football prediction because we're recording.

2:51 Yeah, there are the two championships. Super Bowl Sunday happened yesterday. Right when this episode is released. For most people, the Super Bowl will have been over already. But where while we're recording this right now, the NFC and AFC championship games haven't been played. I think they're starting right about now. But yes, I have given I have put some time, and I have put together a scientific prediction. Did you know. Yeah, I warned you. Okay, yeah, you warned me. So I believe the Super Bowl will be the Seahawks against the Patriots, and I believe the Seahawks will win and the score will be twenty four to twenty three. It's going to be. Really close to me. Wow, all right, you heard it here. I'm feeling quite common.

3:32 I am at a project. It's going to be the Bears and the Lions, and the Bears are going to win two hundred to zero. I am going to predict that you are going to be wrong. I'm pretty confident of that. All right. I have a couple of snacks for you. Okay, they're from our friend Alicia from Amarillo, Texas, who sent us that lovely package. I actually, I'm not even exaggerating. I almost ordered some beaver nuggets the other day because I was like, gosh, beaver nuggets sound really good. Yeah, but Alicia sent us some beaver nuggets. She sent us the traditional ones, which we've had before. But I am in the mood today where I could just eat this whole blag. So during the podcast, i'll share, I'll share a little. But so there's the regular ones. And then she said, I've never seen these, the bold and spicy.

4:19 So those are beaver nuggets too. Yeah, these are beaver nuggets too. Oh interesting. Yeah, And I am wearing the Texas socks that Alicia said, thank you so much, such a nice gift. Are you ready to try some beaver nuggets? Definitely? What did you think of the beaver nuggets? Well, the traditional beaver nuggets are amazing as always, such a great flavor, just a good a really good treat. Bold and spicy ones were interesting, very different good. Yeah, I really liked them. Reminded me a little bit of Cheetos. I definitely a lot like a Cheeto. The traditional ones are harder and chewier, but the yeah, the cheese ones were yeah, a lot like a cheeto. Yeah, really good flavor. Yeah, excellent, both a ten out of ten.

5:04 I'm going to give the traditional beaver nuggets a ten out of ten. I'll give the bolden spicy a eight and a half out of ten. Okay, well, they might disappear and go into Tina's secret snack closets. Fair enough. Well, thank you for coming back to part two of the Menendez Family Murders. I do want to reiterate the content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, family violence, and allegations of sexual abuse involving miners. Listener discretion is advised. Would you like to give a summary a Part one, I sure would. Jose Menendez emigrated to the United States from Cuba at sixteen after Fidel Castro came into power. He descended from a long line of elite athletes and high achieving professionals.

5:47 His mother alone had won five Olympic gold medals. Jose distinguished himself as intelligent, driven, and ruthlessly ambitious. While attending Southern Illinois University go su Luki's, he met Kitty Anderson and the two married. As Jose began climbing the corporate ladder, amassing rapid financial success and power. Together they cultivated the image of a driven elite family, raising their sons, Lyle and Eric in a home ruled by control, discipline, and extreme expectations. From a young age, the boys were pushed relentlessly in sports and academics, while warmth, safety, and emotional freedom were largely absent. As they entered their teen years, both became increasingly rebellious. Lyle was caught in a plagiarism scandal at Princeton, and the brothers were later tied to a string of burglaries. By the end of Part one, tensions had reached a breaking point when Eric confided to Lyle that the sexual abuse he suffered at his father's hands had never stopped. They felt that their parents would rather kill them than have their secrets exposed. Lyle and Eric bought two shotguns for protection.

6:54 Part two begins twenty four hours before the murders. When you were giving the synopsis, as you said, go sulukis. Do you want to tell everyone what a seluki is? I don't know what. Oh you don't. I know. It's the mascot of Southern Illinois University. It's a dog. It looks kind of like a great flat dog, like ah, like a grand It's like a taller, thinner dog. Okay, I'm from Illinois, and back in the day, Southern Illinois University I think was a top ten party school. Oh really, mm hmm. So on Saturday, August nineteenth, the family planned to go shark fishing together. Jose had an important client who enjoyed shark fishing, so he decided to go first before taking the clients, so it would look like he knew what he was doing. When Kitty told the boys that they'd pushed their departure back to the evening, Lyle and Eric were worried. That the time had changed so their parents could kill them under the cover of darkness. The boys stayed out most of the day, hoping their parents would leave without them. They were supposed to depart at three, but when Lyle and Eric finally returned at four, their parents were still there waiting for them. They all went to the marina together and they arrived I think at about four thirty. The chartered boat was small, just thirty feet.

8:06 Kitty remarked on its size as they boarded. There were three additional people on the boat, the captain, his friend, and a deckhand. That day, the water was choppy and both Kitty and Jose became seasick. For most of the trip, Kitty stayed below deck except when they were dolphins or seals bobbing alongside the boat, and Jose called her to come and see them. Lyle and Eric gave their parents a wide berth and huddled together at the back of the boat. Even the captain noticed their odd behavior. He found the family distant and snooty. They didn't return to land until eleven thirty PM, so that was a long day that they were on the water, and the captain said it was a little chilly and the waters were choppy, and everyone was wearing shorts and the boys didn't have windbreakers on, so they were chilly and shivering and the water splashed up on them. And he thought it was odd that they didn't go below deck where Kitty was when it was warmer, and they didn't come up to the front where he and Jose were fishing.

9:06 And interesting that he would note that. Yeah, So when they returned, Kitty and Jose went to bed, but Lyel and Eric went out to discuss their plan. When they returned, the door was locked and they had to wake up an angry Kitty to get inside of the house. She screamed at her sons and said that she wished they'd never been born, then went back to bed. Jose pounded on Eric's door and demanded he be let in, but he cowered in the corner holding his shotgun. Jose told him he couldn't hide forever and retreated back to the bedroom. When I hear some of these stories, like about Kitty saying telling them I wish you'd never been born, it makes me wonder this account must be coming from them, from wild Liel and Eric.

9:48 This is Lyel and Eric's retelling of the story. So it makes me wonder how how reliable that is, you know, just because I'm sure they were trying to cover their tracks afterwards. Absolutely remember that other people had heard Kitty say, I wish I'd never had my son's And that's the reason why I brought up the boat captain's account, because he said, yeah, it was kind of strange that the boys just huddled in the back of the boat for seven hours. Yeah, so there are some independent confirmations some of these things. At least, but you're right, it's important to remember that a lot of this is framed from their account. The next morning, no one was talking. Lyle and Eric laidlow. Later that night, they decided to go see a movie to get out of the house, but their parents forbid them to go out. Kitty and Jose went into the TV room and closed the doors. The brothers worried that their parents were plotting their deaths. They decided it was time.

10:43 They gave each other a nod and retrieved their shotguns. Kitty and Jose had dozed off. They were jolted awake when the boys burst through the French doors, firing. Lyle shoved Eric forward and Eric fired the first shots at Kitty. Jose jumped up and yelled no, no, no, as the bullets from Lyle's gun peppered him. Soon the room was in ruins, thick with smoke, blood spattered across the walls and floor. Out of the corner of his eye, Lyle saw Kitty moving, trying to crawl away. He emptied his shotgun in the ambush, so he had to run to his car, where he'd stash the extra ammunition. He loaded a single bird shot shell and headed back inside. Moments later, he fired again, delivering the fatal shot to his mother's head.

11:27 Lyle and Eric stood for a moment and looked at the wreckage they'd caused. Eric shook with sobs, and Lyle carefully picked up the spent shotgun casings. They expected that a neighbor must have heard the barrage of gunfire and called the police. They waited a few minutes for them to arrive. When they didn't hear approaching sirens, they wondered if they'd gotten away with it. They decided to take their chances and escape the scene. Lyle, as usual, was in charge. He was calm, cool and calculated, already thinking about what to do next, while Eric vacillated between sobs and on disbelieve over what they'd done. They got into Eric's car and drove off into the night, trying to figure out a plan. Realizing they were covered in blood spatter, they changed into some of the extra clothes that Eric kept in his car for tennis practice. Just carding their soiled clothing along with the shotgun, shelves and a gas station dumpster, they headed to the theater, choosing License to Kill because they'd already seen it and thought it could serve as an alibi. But when they arrived sometime after ten thirty PM, they asked for tickets to a show that it had already started. The cashier told them that the movie had started more than twenty minutes earlier, and she wasn't allowed to sell tickets once a movie was that far underway. Instead, they bought tickets to Batman, a later show, hoping the time wouldn't be printed on the tickets to produce their alibi, but they never went inside.

12:50 Lyell frustrated through the ticket stubs in the trash. The later showtime didn't comport with the alibi that they were hoping to establish, so They. Were hoping to buy tickets to a movie that had started earlier, so that they could show the tickets stub and side, Oh look we were in this movie. Yeah, exactly if a neighbor said, oh, I heard gunshots at nine pint thirty, they could say, oh, we were seeing the movie. So instead, Lyel and Eric wandered the streets, killing time, constructing their story, rehearsing their anguish voices for the nine one one call that they knew they'd have to make. Somewhere along Mullholland Drive, near Coldwater Canyon, they dumped the Mossburg shotguns, never to be seen again. Lyel and Eric only had minutes to meet their friend Perry before the Taste of La Food Festival closed to further substantiate an alibi, but when they arrived, they were scattered and couldn't find him. Perry was already home. They called him and pleaded with him to meet them at the cheesecake factory for a drink. Eventually they returned to the scene of the crime. Lyle placed the nine to one one call, his voice frantic, telling the dispatcher incredulously that someone had killed their parents, except he only needed to look in the mirror to see who would actually killed them.

14:01 So we're going to play the nine one one call. I debated about this, but you listened to it and you said you thought it added to the story. I think it's interesting to hear, to hear their voices and to hear how they were acting at that time. I know that some people find the calls triggering, So fast forward. How long is about two minutes? Okay, fast forward two minutes if you don't want to hear it. Really openmerger. What's the problem? So what's the problem. What's the problem jo with the pardon me? What are they still there? The people.

14:42 When they shop? Right, not when I shot? If they were shocked, whatever, I have a. Hysterical person and I was trying to get to further everything that was funny. If the person still there, what happened? We have unit, youreund what happened? Who shot? Who? He came home and found who shot? Yeah?

15:25 You know, if they're still in the house, the people that did the shooting. Get a wait? Wrong, okay, hey, let me talk to Eric. Let me let who is the person that was shot? Mom and dad? Right? Okay, hold on a second, Okay. We're on away over there with the ambulance. Okay, I gotta go. Okay. I think that call is really hard to listen to. It is very hard to listen to. But now that I know they did the shooting and then they went out and came back, and now that I know that Lyle was very calm picking up the shotgun shells and all that kind of thing, it gives me a different perspective on the call than when I was chilling. Right, it's chilling, but it feels very performative now that I know that.

16:22 But two things can be true too. I mean, he could have shot his parents and then he could have regretted it. Yeah, two hours later he could have been like, oh my god. What did we realize? They were still eighteen and twenty one? They were really young. So I just want to point those things out. But yeah, I mean, if he is acting, he's a pretty good actor. Yeah. I mean, they were definitely or he definitely sounded hysterical and you. Can hear Eric in the background, and Eric was legitimately, I think, shattered by the whole experience for Lyle. We'll talk about this more in the future, but Lyle was the one that it was always kind of raised. He was raised Differently told. He was told exactly. He was raised to be a man and to not have feeling.

17:05 So I think that's also an important thing to point out here. Yeah, Lyle and Eric were questioned right away, and immediately police noticed inconsistencies in their timeline. Each time Lyle told the story, it changed slightly, while Eric nervously stood by his brother's side, remaining silent. They were taken to the Beverly Hills Police station around one am for questioning, but were clearly uncomfortable being there. When detectives announced their intention to question the brothers separately, Eric visibly rattled asked if Mark Huffernan, his tennis coach, or Lyle could stay with him, but officers firmly told him that wasn't possible. Shakily, he asked if his parents were dead. Yes, the detectives confirmed they were. Eric cried throughout most of his interview.

17:48 He had no idea who might have wanted his parents dead, he told the police. The interview lasted only about half an hour because of his emotional state. So I know, he just killed his parents and we don't have to feel that sorry for him, but he is just eighteen years old, and I don't think he realized what was going on. So eighteen and it sounds like he was emotionally scented. Yeah, Lyle was calmer during his interview. He told investigators that Kitty had recently purchased another rifle because she'd felt unsafe in their home. Only my brother and I know this, he said, But she was on the verge of contemplating suicide. She was she was very edgy and suicidal in the last few years. And well, but she seemed very stable recently.

18:31 Lyle didn't think his parents were murdered as the result of a robbery. He was emphatic that Jose was a ruthless businessman who worked quote with a group of people that from the stories that he brings home and the people that I've met, these are a real cd group. And even though he was very aware of that, and you know, I don't know if anyone would ever try to kill my father, but my dad is a pretty ruthless businessman, and well he believes in the bottom line, He continued, I could see how he could step on a lot of toes. He was very curt He treats my brother and I, you know, extremely well but firm, and he was, well, he's a strong disciplinarian. He holds the family together well and well he runs the show at work. It's the same way. You know, he yils at a lot of people and he's running the show and he handles everything. I think you can tell here that Lyle is really trying to sell the mob angle it was. It was definitely a hit. Jose had once famously confronted Sylvester Stallone over his Rambo budget.

19:28 Well, that is a brave man to confront. You think that the studio would be like whatever you want, sly. I just because Svester Stallone was you know, pretty big muscular guy, and I wouldn't want to you know, I wouldn't want to make him angry at me. Right and you know, probably their biggest star at the time. Absolutely well be back after a break. Lyle wasn't the only one who suspected Jose's work may have gotten him killed. As Los Angeles woke the next morning to the news of the shocking murders, an investigator told the La Times the murders stink of organized crime. They went there to take care of business and to make a message clear. Hollywood insiders later joked that hundreds of people were suddenly scrambling to get their alibis straight.

20:17 Jose Menendez had made plenty of enemies during his career. Jose's employer, Live Entertainment, quickly organized a memorial service, in part to shape the media narrative and push back against early rumors of their ties to organized crime. Jose had worked in the entertainment and home video business during a period when certain corners of the industry were known to attract organized crime influence. There was no evidence that Jose himself was involved in anything illegal, but the climate of the era, combined with his reputation as a ruthless businessman, helped fuel speculation in the days after the murders. I am curious how much organized crime was involved in the film business. As you know, I'm always fast mad by the mafia and organized crime, and it would be an interesting thing to research a little bit.

21:05 We're going to talk about this a little later. But looking back on the home video industry, what videos were the first videos that became big for home entertainment? Think about it, think about it really hard. I don't know horn Oh, okay, so gotcha that that's why I organized crime. That makes sense. On August twenty fifth, four hundred people gathered at a posh theater at the Director's Guild of America just off the Sunset Strip to Morn Kitty and Jose. An hour after the event began, Lyle and Eric pulled up in a stretch limo. Lyle delivered a lengthy eulogy, but attendees noticed that the brother's demeanors were cold. Lyle's friend said, I've seen him get more upset about losing a tennis match than he was about his parents' death.

21:51 Eyebrows were raised when Millie Vanilli's song Girl I'm Going to Miss You was played at the end of the service. I don't believe I'm familiar with that particular Millie Vanilli tune. I am not surprised. That's not really your style of music, but I have been listening to it a lot on repeat ever since I watched the Netflix Monsters show. I don't even know how to describe this show. It's so wild and over the top. But this scene that we just described is the opening scene of that, okay, and it is loose like the whole Monster series is more than loosely based on their story, I'd say it's like eighty percent true. But this particular scene is very over the top. But that song was played at the end of the service. But it was kind of you know, when you go to a funeral sometimes they're playing music.

22:37 So it wasn't like but it is funny because they were like a girl, I'm going to miss you, like it's for their mom. Yeah, it's a little bit of an odd, odd. Choice, a little over the top, a lot over the top. After family members were notified in New Jersey and Florida, they rushed to California, many interested in Jose's finances curious about the will, but one couldn't be found. When a safe in the Menendez home was opened by locksmith, jewelry and personal papers were found, but no will. The same with a safe deposit box at the bank. Jose, in a rage over their behavior, that Summer, had told his sons that he was disinheriting them. A will was eventually located in a bathroom drawer dated nineteen eighty. They were surprised to learn that they were the sole beneficiaries of the estate, which was valued at about fourteen million. Dollars.

23:25 Do you think this is suspicious that the will was in a bathroom drawer? It is a very unusual place I would think to find a will. Jose had told several relatives that he was rewriting his will, and many questions remained about the validity of the will that was found in the bathroom. A document titled Will was found on Jose's hard drive, but it was inaccessible the family, not Lyle or Eric, hired computer experts to access the hard drive, but before they could get to it, Lyle hired someone to look at the files, specifically ones named Lyle, Eric Menendez, and Will. A man named Howard Whitkin from Leviathon Development worked on the IBM computer but was unable to recover the files.

24:09 Although he determined that the will file only contained fifty four characters, Lyle asked him to erase the hard drive because he intended to sell the computer. Well, that seems a little suspicious, wouldn't a lawyer like wouldn't Jose's lawyer step forward and say, yes, I have the will? Or yes Jose came to me. I believe his lawyer said I don't have a will. Okay, So maybe Jose didn't update. It or didn't think he might have been in the process of But remember, Jose's forty five years old. He's a young man. He didn't have his affairs an order. He didn't believe he had a reason to right. Jose and Kitty were laid to rest in New Jersey, with a funeral held eight days after the murders on August twenty eighth. Two religious services were held, one Catholic and one Protestant. Jose had been a Catholic and Kitty a Prohest. Their bodies were then brought to the Princeton Chapel, where Lyle delivered a thirty minute eulogy. In his eulogy, Lyle portrayed Jose as a man who lived an extraordinary life, emphasizing his devotion to family, legacy, success, and generational achievement.

25:17 He told mourners that he and Eric would try to live up to what their father had wanted for them, and suggested that their parents would have preferred people put on a brave face, move forward, and not dwell on grief. Allegedly, Lyle told Marzi Eisenberg, Jose's assistant, my father once said, you'll never fill my shoes guess what, I'm wearing my father's shoes today. So Marzie did say that Lyle said this, but during the trial they actually looked back and saw that he was not wearing his father's shoes that day. He was wearing like green cowboy boots or something. Okay, I'm not sure why she would have made that up. So in the first couple of weeks after their parents' deaths, they both are talking about what a great man their father was and how which they admired him and loved him. Right, and the same with Kitty Like. They were just emphatic how much they loved their parents. Yeah.

26:07 And do you think they were being sincere or do you think they were trying to cover their tracks and divert suspicion from themselves. I think both things can be true. Yeah. Days later, Lyle hired two personal security guards, claiming he was afraid he was being watched by the mafia, but in reality it was the FBI who were watching his every move. After a couple of weeks, Lyle fired the security guards. He told them that his uncle had smoothed things over with the mafia, pleading for his and Eric's safety. The brothers continued to present as opposites. Lyle appeared confident and strong in the aftermath of his parents' murders, freely speaking with the media who hovered nearby, while Eric was visibly suffering, plagued by stomach aches and nightmares. He was staying with Henry Yanniol, a male cousin twenty years older with a family of his own in the San Fernando Valley. Some nights, Eric was so hrm wanted he would crawl into Henry's bed with him. Three days after the murders, the brothers went to buy sports codes at the mall for the memorial service. While there, they made an impulsive stop at Slavak's Jewelers and bought three Rolex watches and two money clips for just under seventeen thousand dollars.

27:18 They used Jose's platinum American Express card. The employee called American Express to make sure the sale was authorized. The sale did. Clear Lyle and Eric had access to their parents two hundred and fifty thousand dollars credit limit. In the months after the murder, afraid to return to the mansion, the brothers stayed at expensive hotels and flew freely between the coasts it would take years to settle Kitty and Jose's estate, but Jose's six hundred and fifty thousand dollars life insurance policy quickly got paid out. Lyle bought a sixty four thousand dollars Porsche nine one one Carrera. Eric had more frugal tastes, buying a Jeep Wrangler for fifteen thousand dollars. He also secured his tennis coach, Mark, offering him a salary of sixty thousand dollars a year.

28:05 I think this scene here that we're painting is what people remember most about the Menentaz brothers is they did go on this crazy spending spree, and it wasn't just cars, it was you know, clothes and audio video equipment. They did kind of go crazy. Not a good look. Lyle bought his favorite Princeton, New Jersey chicken wing spot, Chuck's Spring Street Cafe, for five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He renamed it Mister Buffalo's, with plans to expand to the West Coast. He told Princeton's Town Topics newspaper that he wanted the restaurant to have a Midwestern motif centered around health food and buffalo wings to go together hand in hands. I had to include that quote because I was like, I mean health food and buffalo wings. What, I what a great idea.

28:50 In a Midwestern motif. No, Like, we've seen pictures of this restaurant and it's it's still there, and it has really good reviews, but it looks like a little hole in the wall. So I'm kind of surprised that it was five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Lyle decided not to return to Princeton, choosing instead to focus on becoming a businessman like his father. Upon abandoning his pursuit of a Princeton degree, he said, I would love to get the education, but I can't justify postponing my dreams. Eric also deferred college, opting not to attend UCLA that fall, instead turning his focus to his tennis career. In the months after the murders, it was estimated that the brothers spent more than a million dollars.

29:33 But half of that was on the business. Relatives urged them to slow down, warning that the inheritance wouldn't last forever. Still, many of those same family members viewed the extravagant purchases less as reckless spending and more as a coping strategy, a way to spend, distract themselves and blunt their grief. The mansion had been repaired, but the brothers were too traumatized to live there. Instead, they rented a an apartment together in Marina del Rey. They turned it into a real bachelor pad. All right, buckle up, I'm about to take you on a little bit of a ride. Okay, do you remember doctor jerome o'zeal. I remember that was Eric's therapist. Well after they were arrested for the burglaries, they were forced to go see him, and I think it was mostly Eric, but Lyle did see him as well. I think they might have had some family therapy with doctor Ozel too. Remember doctor Ozell had signed some waiver that he would share share everything with you, share everything with hos.

30:32 Weeks after his parents' murders, Eric continued to be haunted by nightmares of their deaths, violent intrusive dreams that jolded him awake and left him soaked in sweat, his heart racing. In his waking hours, he was raw and unmoored, swinging between panic and numbness, barely functioning not eating unraveling. He and Lyle had seen the psychotherapist doctor Jerome Ozeal years earlier when they'd gotten into trouble for the burglaries. Eric called o'zell the day before Halloween and requested the last appointment for the day. He didn't want to be seen by anyone in the office, He explained. O'zeal had seen the news and he had a suspicion that the brothers knew more than they were telling the police. He had actually gone to see them several times at the Beverly Hills Hotel where they were staying, but he hadn't seen them since the funeral, so I think he saw them.

31:24 He went to see them at least three times just to check on them, and each time he built them okay. So Eric arrived on time for the appointment. He spent an hour with the doctor talking about his parents and what a great man his father was. Then he asked if they could take a walk together. That's when Eric blurted out, we did it. Eric later explained why he felt the need to confess. I was having trouble telling him about why I was suicidal since I hadn't told him that I killed my parents, and he wasn't really getting it. So I just decided that I needed to tell somebody, and I decided to tell him right then. I really wanted him at that point to tell me that I wasn't a bad person, and he couldn't do that unless he knew that I killed my parents. Eric described their murders as the perfect crime. Ozell promised Eric that whatever he said to him was confidential. Ozell asked Eric if Lyle knew he was there. Eric said no.

32:19 Ozell was so concerned about how Lyle might react to finding out Eric was in his office that he later said he feared for Eric's life, but more likely he was fearful for his own life. Yeah, that makes sense. Ozell then called the Menendez mansion. Lyle and his girlfriend Jamie were there handing out Halloween candy. When Ozell asked him to come to the office, Lyle understood immediately what it meant. He got in his car and raced there. It was about six thirty pm. This is where things are a little foggy because we have differing accounts. Do you remember Judelan Smith from part one? Mistress? But I don't remember much about her. Okay, well. She claims that she was in the waiting room, but Ozel doesn't know if she is there or not.

33:03 This is one point that is contested between them. She claims that she was there and overheard what was said in the office, but Jerry said that he had no knowledge of her presence and he hadn't called her and asked her to be there. He was with the brothers for over four hours, and he said that she could have slipped in at some point and been there without his knowledge. When Lyle arrived, Ozel invited him into the office and asked him to sit down. Your brother has told me everything, he simply stated. Lyle blew up at Eric. Ozell described his demeanor and words as very threatening. Later, Ozell and Smith testified under oath that Lyle said, now, I hope you know what we're going to have to do. We've got to kill him and anyone associated with him, him meaning Eric, no Oziel, oh gotcha. Hours later, after Lyle and Eric left, Ozell thought he was in danger.

33:53 He called his wife and told her that she and the children needed to leave town. Then he made several other calls, uncertain of how to aproach the situation and stay safe. He called another psychologist, who suggested that he leave a detailed account of what had transpired and put it in multiple safe deposit boxes. Ozelle thought that he could diffuse the situation between Lyele and Eric and called them and convince them to come back for another session on November two. While his wife left their home, he stayed with Judelan for several days, although he insisted that she wasn't his girlfriend. Ozel later said that Lyle showed clear sociopathic traits. He feared that he could kill again, either himself or even Eric. In contrast, Ozell said that Eric showed remorse over his parent's death. And I'm not sure if Ozell recorded one or both of these sessions, but there were several audio tapes of their sessions in his possession, one with a clear confession. Ozel purchased three shotguns, one for himself, one for his wife, and one for Judelan.

34:58 So Eric confided in Ozelle that he he'd been thinking of killing his father for a month. He began thinking that life would be easier without him breathing down his neck all the time. And remember when jose had said, you're not going to use You're not going to live in the dorms, You're going to stay at home. I think that was a big turning point for Eric when he realized that even though he was eighteen, his father was still and really it was really unfair. I think that he was a fairly good student. I think he was a B student. And Lyle got to go away. Lyle got to stay at Princeton and you know, fly back and forth between New Jersey and California. Why wasn't Eric given that same freedom.

35:38 Yeah, I could totally see that Eric would view that as a double double standard. Yeah, so Kitty would surely turn them in. So Lyle and Eric knew that they needed to kill her too. They didn't think that she would survive without Jose. Later, prosecutors would argue that Eric had been influenced by the Maid for TV mini series The Billionaire Boys Club, a dramatization of real crimes involving wealthy young men and murder. I claim the defense disputed, and there's actually no proof that Eric has ever seen the movie. I'm thinking about doing that case in the future because it's a it's a very interesting case around Thanksgiving. The mother of one of Eric's closest friends. Craig Signarelli contacted the police through her attorney. She told them that she had reason to believe Lyle and Eric had murdered their parents.

36:24 So this is now, what about three months or so after Fred and we're the police not suspecting Lyle and Eric at this point. Now, remember they were like two weeks on, they were pretty sure that they had something to do with it. Okay, they're just taking their time. Taking their time, and we have to remember that these things take time a lot, a lot. And if they rushed to make an arrest, right, you know a lot of times it all fall through and there's not enough evidence, and yeah. You only got one shot at it, so you better. Do it right. Exactly. When the Menendez family moved to Calabasas, California, from New Jersey in nineteen eighty seven, Eric and Craig became fast friends after playing together on their high school tennis team. Eric desperately missed Lyle, who was in New Jersey, and his friendship with Craig quickly deepened, and away few others had together. They took long drives along California's scenic, winding highways.

37:13 They viewed themselves as more introspective than their peers, playing chess for hours while having long conversations. But they also dabbled in screenwriting, and one screenplay called Friends, Eighteen year old Hamilton Cromwell murders his sleeping parents to inherit their one hundred and fifty seven million dollar fortune. Kitty even type the sixty two page screenplay for him. Wow, here's one seemingly autobiographical passage about Hamilton's father. Sometimes he would tell me that I was not worthy to be his son. When he did that, it would make me strive harder, just so I could hear the words I love you, son. And I never heard those words.

37:53 Wow. I can't imagine how Kitty must have felt typing that, Oh. You like, oh yeah, I'll help you all do this. I guess. I want to point out here too, that the one hundred and fifty seven million dollar fortune that the Cromwell family allegedly had, Eric and Lyle thought that their parents had more than the fourteen million dollar estate. It was estimated that they thought the estate just it wasn't much. They would inherit much more than the fourteen million dollars, which should have been plenty. Really, Eric hoped that Jose would read the script and get it into the right hands, but there's no evidence that he ever read it. So. About twelve days after the murders, Craig went to check on Eric at the Menendez mansion, worried about him. He could see that Eric was unraveling. Eventually, Eric told his best friend the truth that he and Lyle were responsible.

38:41 Craig later testified that he was stunned and unsure at first whether Eric was serious, but he kept talking, insisting it was real, insisting it had happened. Unsure what to do, Craig went home and told his mother, who then contacted the police. Actually, this timeline tells me that he must not have told her right away, or she didn't tell the police. Ride away. While at Princeton, Lyle had also met a new best friend, Donovan good Row. Donovan, a California native, was a rather shady guy, living out of his truck. He told Lyle that he'd be attending Princeton the following year, although he wasn't. He never even applied. Lyle invited him to move into his suite. One night, over dinner, Donovan confided to Lyle that he'd been sexually abused as a child at the house of a friend, prompting Lyle to share his own painful experience of abuse. He told Donovan that his father had sexually abused him and Eric since they were small boys and they often shared baths or showers together. The living arrangement lasted two months. When cash and other valuables went missing, Lyle's roommates packed up his belongings and forced Donovan out, and their hurry to oust him the sweet mates forgot to pack Donovan's wallet, which he never came back for. Lyle wouldn't see this friend again until years later at his murder trial. So we mentioned Donovan in part one. Do you remember I don't know when they purchased the shotguns? They used his ID. So this idea that was left behind, gotcha Lyle had pocketed interested it.

40:12 Yeah, we'll be back after a break. After Jose and Kitty's death, police quickly noted that the front door was open with no signs of forced entry, and the security system was unarmed. Nothing was taken from the home. One thing that stood out was that, despite the number of shots somewhere between fifteen and twenty, there were no shotgun casings found they must have been picked up by the shooter, which is not something a hired hit man would take the time to do. That's interesting because my first thought was that that would be something a hired hitman would do. But I guess there's no reason for it, right, I mean, the shotgun shells aren't going to be really important evidence in most cases. Within a week, the Beverly Hills Police Department honed in on Lyle and Eric as suspects, Although there was no direct evidence tying them to the crime scene.

41:05 Their behavior was suspicious and police didn't believe it was a mob hit. Live Entertainment, who Jose was working for at the time. They even thought that it could be a mob hit. After he learned of Kitty and Jose's murders. Donovan Goodroau, Lyle's former best friend and roommate, reached out to the lead detective in the case. Less zolar Zohlar had also investigated the Billionaire Boys Club after Craig Signorelli's mother contacted police, They asked him if he would wear a wire to try to coerce a confession from Eric. He agreed. They met at Gladstone's along the Pacific Coast, Highway in Malibu for dinner. But now that Signorelli was wearing a wire, Eric was closed off. Craig said, you already told me you did it. Eric bristled, don't fuck with that anymore.

41:53 You know I didn't kill my parents. There's no way I could have ever done that. Eric said that he thought it was a hit by the mafia or even Fidel Castro. He'd pay a million dollars to catch the killer. Over dinner, they talked about making their own fortunes. Eric said they should focus on becoming senators one day. Do you think Eric suspected that Craig was wearing a wire? I wonder if maybe Craig could have chipped Eric off. Oh maybe, After Craig failed to get a confession, he whispered into the wire. Well, I guess that didn't help much, huh. In January, police raided the Signorelli's home looking for anything related to the Menendez murders. Furious at the police after he'd been so accommodating, Craig faxed the following missive to the Beverly Hills Police Department. Fate and circumstance sometimes forge unexpected allies. As I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death. I shall fear no evil. Betrayal signifies evil.

42:51 Living is an art, necessitating tact, not fueled by greed. This you shall suffer from ignorance. You are not to be trusted. And as they looked out over their empire, they were saddened, for there were no more lands left to conquer. Hamilton Cromwell, Okay, good job reading that word salad. Hamilton Cromwell does. That is the character in the screenplay there. So it really smart. Sometimes, Yes, so I think this is just that is a very strange I have no idea what he was trying to say. I actually read it through chat. I was like, what what does this mean? But I don't blame him for being angry. It was pretty underhanded that the police raided his house. Yeah, probably felt like he might be holding something back.

43:37 Yeah, I guess so. But yeah, that message seems it just sounds a little sort of unhinged in a way. Mm hmm. In December, Judelan Smith had a severe reaction to a new antidepressant. She called Jerry o'zeal to take her to the hospital. Afterward, she was badly shaken and didn't want to be alone. Jerry and his wife Laurel, who according to accounts, did not know about the affair, allowed Judelan to stay overnight in their housekeeper's room until she felt better. So, Laurel o'zil is also a psychotherapist, and I guess at this time she thought that Judelan was just a patient of Jerry's, which later on he would say, oh, she was never a patient of mine, because you know, that would be really bad to have an affair with the patient.

44:24 Right. So this do you remember the movie What About Bob or was it Do I Have? Do I have the name right? With Bill Bill Murray? M Yeah, and. Where Bill Murray develops kind of a fixation on his therapist and wants to be his friend. And Yeah, to me, this situation kind of sounds like that. Judelan keeps reaching out to Jerry for help, and you know, he says, we're not involved, she's not my girlfriend, but clearly there is some attachment there. Yeah. Judelan was in a fragile state. At times she was suicidal. At others she became volatile, threatening to go to the police with what she knew about Lyle and Eric. She used that knowledge as leverage to remain in the Ozeal's home. What happened during that period is disputed. Ozeal later said the relationship was over. Judelan claimed they were still romantically involved and that they had sex. During her stay in the house, Judelan appeared to enjoy being in the Ozeal home and spending time with the children. Some accounts have alleged that she behaved inappropriately toward the youngest daughter, even suggesting she implied she could become a new mommy.

45:32 Weeks turned into months, and Smith remained in the house. Ozell's wife, Laurel, later said the situation became so disruptive that the family felt held hostage by Smith's presence. She also said Judelan overstepped boundaries in the home, even re arranging furniture while they were at work. Judelan later claimed that Jerry had controlled her, held her hostage, abused her physically, and even sexually assaulted her. In March, when she was asked to leave the Ozell's allege that she threatened to murder Jerry and his family, but this is hard to believe because he continued to see her. In a late night phone call before the trial, Ozell told Smith, We're going to be stars, not exactly for the right reasons.

46:15 Although stars wasn't the right word, he wasn't wrong. People were interested in the Bazaar coupling. Later in court, Judelan revealed that she had once given Jerry an IOU for five hundred sex acts that was signed by two witnesses, her cats, Shanti and Ishi Kitty. I'm not sure an IOU signed by cats would be legally binding. Well. I'm positive that she later rescinded that IOU because their relationship deteriorated pretty quickly. And it's fun to laugh at Judelan because she is like a quirky lady lady. But I believe her account. Really, she was a beautiful lady, and she was a little quirky. But Jerry is a piece of garbage and he can't be trusted. And I do think that he might have wanted her at his house to control her because he didn't want her.

47:07 To go to the police. In March nineteen ninety, when Lyle heard that two detectives from the Beverly Hills Police Department visited mister Buffalo asking about him, he became very nervous, even hiring another bodyguard for six months. He'd been under the impression that he and Eric had committed the perfect crime, but the walls were closing in on him. Days later, law enforcement got the break it had been waiting for. On March sixth, Judelan Smith met with detectives and a Los Angeles County Deputy District attorney for six hours. She told him that she had overheard the Menendez brothers confessing to Jerome o'zeal and that she could lead them to a recording of it.

47:51 Two days later, a search warrant was executed on the Ozell's home. They were looking for six audio tapes from the Menenda's sessions, along with Jerry's appointment diary and the keys to his safe deposit boxes. Laura o'zell called Jerry and told him to come home immediately. Unsure what to do, he contacted his attorney and the American Psychological Association for guidance. He was told to cooperate in cases like this involving potential doctor patient confidentiality. A special court appointed attorney is present during the search to review the evidence, to determine what is legally admissible, and to protect anything that must remain privileged.

48:33 That's trually interesting. I would think if if you had audio tapes of your session with your psychiatrist or psychologists, that that would be confidential, right, because it's something you're saying in this session. Yes, you're right, and that is a question that remains in this case. Interesting Lyele Menendez was arrested in front of his parents' mansion on March eighth, nineteen ninety fifteen. Officers in bulletproof e acts with guns drawn pulled him from Eric to jeep and threw him to the ground, handcuffing him as his two friends looked on stunned. Eric was competing in a tennis tournament in Israel, but as soon as he heard the news, he and his coach Mark Kaffernan returned to the US to surrender to police.

49:18 When he landed at Lax at two a m. Detectives were waiting to arrest him. He was relieved there were no TV cameras to document the moment. He asked not to be handcuffed, but officers told him it was necessary. He was then taken downtown and booked. Lyel and Eric had strong support from both sides of their family, except for two of Kitty's brothers, Brian and mort Many attended their first hearing on March twelfth. Their grandmother, Maria even suggested to her daughter Marta that they should hire people to break Eric and Lyle out of jail, no matter the cost, because they were unjustly being held. She said she wanted to take them somewhere far away where they would never have to expose the secret of the Menendez family.

50:02 So that's interesting, right Lyel and Eric were each charged with two counts of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Included were three special circumstances that made them eligible for the death penalty, lying in wait, multiple murders, and murder for financial gain. They were denied bail, So it's interesting that the charge murder for a financial gain, which everyone thinks that's why they murdered their parents. They were not indicted on that charged. The grand jury found that there was not enough evidence for that charge. Interesting. Two weeks later, at their arraignment hearing, they pleaded not guilty. They were criticized for appearing almost jovial with their legal team, smiling, laughing, and in the public size behaving in ways that didn't match the gravity of the charges. Robert Shapiro, one of OJ's high profile attorneys, initially represented the brothers, but he was replaced by Leslie Abramson, who had an and especially close bond with Eric. Jill Lansing, a friend of Abramson's, was named as Lyle's attorney. Despite their confession to o'zeal, there was strikingly little evidence directly tying the brothers to the crime, in part because of errors made by the Beverly Hills Police Department on the night of the murders.

51:19 Remember that they hadn't searched their cars or they would have found the ammunition, and they had never done the gunshot residue test, which they definitely it would have been positive. Yeah. And if investigators had looked into their movie Alibi, and they'd gone to the theater and talked to anyone that worked there, they actually had an argument with the person that was selling tickets, and I'm sure she would have remembered and said, oh, yeah, they never really saw a movie. If a judge ruled that o'zell's tapes were inadmissible because like you pointed out. Doctor patient confidentiality, yeah. The prosecution's case would be in serious trouble. What followed was months, then years of legal fighting over whether those recording could ever be heard by a jury. The defense argued that psychotherapist's patient privilege should protect them and signaled early on that they were prepared to challenge any adverse ruling all the way up to the California Supreme Court. Ultimately, that's exactly where the battle ended. California's High Court ruled that key portions of the tapes could be admitted into evidence, a decision that fundamentally shaped how the trial would unfold.

52:28 In the early nineteen nineties, news was shifting from print to twenty four hour cable coverage, and the world's fixation with true crime was just beginning to take hold. With the launch of Court TV, courtrooms were now open to cameras. Trials were no longer summarized on the evening news. They were broadcast, dissected, and consumed in real time by an increasingly hungry audience. A Menande's case arrived at the front edge of that transformation, just before OJ and Nicole Brown, Simpson defendants became seletlebrities. Audiences debated guilt and innocence, not behind closed doors, in a courthouse, but at the water cooler and around kitchen tables, And with that shift came a new ethical dilemma. Woyeurism crept in and real grief became content. From the beginning, much of the coverage framed the brothers not as potential victims of long term abuse, but as spoiled Beverly Hills brats who had murdered their parents for money. Once that narrative took hold, nearly every detail was filtered through it. When the sexual abuse allegations emerged, they were often treated less as serious claim and more as a shocking twist or a convenient defense strategy. The Menendez trial didn't just reflect public fascination with crime, but helped to find an era that turned it into entertainment, turning a complex family tragedy into a story that the public felt entitled to watch, judge and consume, and paving the way for pesky true crime.

53:55 Podcast as. We definitely have some personally, we definitely have some guilt there. Adjustment to life in jail wasn't easy for the brothers, especially Eric. He was only nineteen and felt very vulnerable. He couldn't eat or sleep. After razor blades were found in his cell. He was put in solitary confinement. Lyle was not allowed to mix with general population. He was considered a high risk inmate. So I'm assuming there was no bail offered because of the crimes that they committed allegedly committed. In June nineteen ninety, a seventeen page letter was intercepted by jail guards written to Eric from Lyle. The letter outlined a potential escape plan and discussed altering their appearance, obtaining new passports and countries without extradition treaties. The letter explicitly told Eric to dispose of it, but he couldn't part with it. He hid it inside his mattress, and one passage, Lyle wrote, we alone know the secrets of our families past. I do not look forward to broadcasting them around the country. I pray that it never has to happen. If it were not for you, I doubt I'd even try for manslaughter. I would rather try and escape or die. I struggle with my belief that men take responsibility. Pleading abuse is not taking responsibility. So in this letter, again we have this nugget about family secrets, and he once he's willing to die rather than to divulge those secrets.

55:23 Yeah, that's interesting. And when he says, I doubt I would even try for manslaughter, he's saying he would. If they know that they are going to they know that they are not going to be acquitted, so the lightest sentence they could get his manslaughter manslaughter exactly. The letters discovery prompted changes in how the brothers were monitored and housed, with authorities realizing there was a potential risk allowing the brothers to spend time together. In the months that followed, Lyle and Eric were visited by a parade of attorneys. One of them, a young lawyer named Steve Goldberg, had been handling matters related to the estate and gradually earned their trust. It was to him they turned when they decided they wanted to confess. They asked Goldberg to help facilitate the confession. First, they wanted to speak to their family, to explain how things had become untenable for them with their parents and how they'd been long standing victims of sexual abuse. For Lyle, the sexual abuse stopped when he was eight, but for Eric it started when he was six and never stopped until his father's death.

56:24 The brothers had rarely talked to each other about the abuse they'd suffered until days before the murders. Remember, after the tupei was ripped off. That's when they allegedly had the discussion and Lyle realized that Eric had been being abused this whole time. Their family was forgiving and supportive, and they said that they'd known that something was amiss with the family. Except again for Kitty's two brothers, everyone was behind them. During pre trial preparations, a forensic psychologist conducted extensive evaluations of both brothers. He concluded that their emotional development lagged far behind their chronological ages, placing Eric at roughly eight to twelve and Lyle closer to twelve to fourteen. He believed that they were raised in a home marked by violence, emotional deprivation, and extreme unrealistic expectations.

57:16 Throughout their sessions, he found them guarded and withdrawn, with a sense that they were concealing something significant. It was not until his twenty sixth meeting with Eric that a core trauma was finally disclosed. Eric revealed that his father had been abusing him from a very young age. He and Lyle had made a pact never to reveal the abuse, the dark family secret they that had been gnawing at them for most of their lives. Eric confided in the psychologist that Lyle was set against ever revealing the abuse he'd suffered, determined to bring it to his grave. Just days before the trial was set to begin, the story broke. The media learned of the brother's allegations of sexual abuse by their father and their mothers, alleged indifference and substance abuse disorder, and the defensive plan to center its case on self defense rooted in the abuse that they said they had endured.

58:07 I have a couple of questions for you about this. So this forensic psychologist, do we know if this person was hired by the defense to conduct this evaluation or was it somebody hired by the state. Yeah, that's a really good question and an important question to ask. I am not sure they were seen by a barrage of therapists, So I'm not sure who you know hired who. I think some are hired by the state. I think some are more objective, and I think there were definitely some hired by the defense too. But I feel like what this psychotherapist is saying really makes sense to me. We talked about this before. How if you're being abused you cannot grow. Yeah, no, it totally makes sense as well. But because Lyle was abused, his abuse stopped earlier, I mean the sexual abuse, not the other you know, the situations, So it does make sense that he would have been able to mature a little more. I don't know what do you buy into this.

58:59 I'm just always a little cynical, especially when it comes to like expert witnesses, because as we've seen over and over, you can hire someone to say almost anything, and so I just always have a little bit of my guard up about these type of things. But it does make sense. I mean, it does match up with kind of what we've learned about Lyle and Eric. My other question is whether we know who leaked this story, because that's pretty self serving for the defense, I. Would I am pretty sure that Leslie Abramson. Do you know who Leslie Abramson is? You can picture her in my head. She has like really kind of crazy hair, right. Yeah, she's four foot nine, but she has at least like four inches of you know, just with her hair. But yeah, she is else. She knows how to work the media, so.

59:40 She really does yeah, so I believe that she probably released this. It does it surprise you that the brothers had so much family support behind them except for Moreton Bryan. It does surprise me. And when you said that, it made me wonder because it made me wonder if they were more concerned about family secrets getting out than they and reputation and things like that, because it it seems like Jose was all about you know, appearances and reputation right he wanted he did is I. Mean, a lot of families would would feel that, and you know. Yea, but it just sort of matches up with the family dynamics of Jose doing his kids homework for them because he was more concerned about them getting in good great. Great, absolutely appearances everything with the Jose.

1:00:20 Yeah, so it does surprise me that they were behind them, but it also makes me wonder about their their motives for being behind them. Mm hmm. Do you believe that Eric's grief is genuine? I do? He really seems torture, doesn't he. Yeah, he seems really tortured. And because of his emotional immaturity, as we've talked about, I do believe he was his growth was stunted. Emotionally, and yeah, it seems like he was very upset legitimately. Something that I keep thinking about is the brothers thought they committed the perfect crime, but they really didn't. No, Like, they got lucky because you know, the gunshot residue if nothing else that definitely would have came up positive. And it was a warm windows are open, and the houses are spread pretty far apart. If there's twenty gunshots, neighbor heard that, Yeah, well I think people did hear it, but it's Beverly Hills, so people, you know, kind.

1:01:13 Of mind their own business. Yeah, exactly. And they waited for a few minutes before they left because they're like, oh, the police are going to come because someone And so I don't really think, yeah, obviously did not commit the perfect crime. No. I think they probably just felt like that after six months or whatever went by and no one arrested them, they probably thought, oh, you're getting off scott free. Yeah. Do you think you can write off the spending as a trauma response. I guess a little bit. I mean I just think, you know, even before their parents were killed, they were kind of entitled, right, and it just sort of seemed like a little bit maybe trauma responds and a little bit of like, wooh, we're free, you know, we could just do whatever we want.

1:01:56 Now, that's what it appears. But remember they were not in die on that charge of excessive like spending or killing for financial Yeah, and they did have access. They both had their father's credit card. And I do believe that there was abuse in the family, but it was never financial abuse. I think that their parents were financially generous with them. Again, it had something to do with, you know, reputation, and they wanted their kids to be well dressed and you know, have the best of everything. Yeah, although Eric drove I believe a Ford Escort and Lyle had this Alpha Romeo Spider which I vaguely remember what that looks like, but I have to believe that was probably an expensive car.

1:02:37 Yeah. Also, just if you think about any eighteen and twenty one year old kid that has suddenly has you know, essentially unlimited access to a credit card and money, it's not that surprising that they would have gone on a spending spree. Look either, Yeah, definitely this is a hard question. But why do you think they killed Kitty? Why didn't they just kill Jose? That is a hard question because a lot. Of people would point to, well, if Kitty was alive, she would have inherited the fortune and they wouldn't have gotten anything, right. What, I can't remember what you said they told or Eric told his friend Craig that they had to kill Kitty because she would have been. A witness or well, that was one thing that people point to, and like, she would have been a witness to the crime. But also they pictured Kitty as fragile and weak, and remember she has substance abuse disorder, and you know, she's kind of obsessed with her husband. Yeah, and they were saying she wouldn't have survived without him, But I would like to say she also could have thrived without her husband, right, you know.

1:03:37 She was pretty miserable, but she felt like she kind of had to stay with him in some ways, right, she felt a little bit still. I remember her childhood. She had seen what her mother went through with her divorce, and she said, that's not going to be me. I'm going to you know, save my marriage, which a lot of women think is the way to go. Yeah, but the real question is does could Lyle and Eric have legitimately thought that? And yeah, I think they could have legitimately thought that she might not be able to get by without Jose around, or that she wouldn't want to be around. Do you think that Lyle and Eric were treated differently because they were two wealthy boys from Beverly Hills rather than you know, two guys from any other place. I don't know. I mean you're talking about like the fact that they didn't do a gunshot residue test on them right away, and they.

1:04:23 Let Eric go because he was crying, and they were just nice to them. They were sympathetic, and they didn't, you know, cuff them right away. They didn't question them, they didn't interrogate them, they questioned them. To me, it feels more like incompetence than bias, But I could be wrong. I don't know. I think it was both. I think that they let them off a little easy because they were, you know, two rich white kids. I guess. But it just seems like if the police had any suspicion that Lyle and Eric might have done this, that they would have done those things. But that's also privilege, right, Yeah. I suppose maybe they didn't suspect because you know, what would these why would these two wealthy boys kill their parents.

1:05:04 Maybe we still have a lot to talk about, but I promise we will wrap it all up in part three, So please come back. I will. Well, I just looked out the window and it is still snowing. Yeah, it sure is. I think we were on the like, just the edge of the storm, and we ended up getting a little more than they originally anticipated. But yesterday, after we recorded part one, we went out and about see a movie. I went to see a movie. We saw Hamnet, which it was. It was a It was a good cinematic experience. I think I was already feeling a little morose, so.

1:05:47 It was. It was stark, sad and dark. Yeah, and you had read the book right. Read the book, and I liked the book. I you know, I preferred the book to the movie. I thought the book was a little more poetic. It was beautifully written, and I think it told the story of Hamnett better. Did it. Yeah. I went into the movie not really knowing anything about it, and so I have to admit I was a little bit confused. I didn't know. I honestly, I don't want to spoil anything for people that I didn't know that it was Hamlet. Well, I didn't know that the father was William Shakespeare until like more than halfway through the movie. I kind of started. Putting writing plays in the theater.

1:06:28 I didn't even realize he was writing plays. I'm just so slow. Sometimes I thought, oh, he. Was up at night scrawling things. Well I knew that, okay, But then I thought when he went to London, he was there like making gloves or something. And I didn't hear them ever mention him writing plays until close to it. So I'm a little bit slow. But I thought it was a beautiful movie. It was very cinematic, very the cinematography. Was It's a little overwrought, and yeah, I would like to see it like a really funny movie I miss. I feel like we're not making as many comedies as we used to, maybe just not on my radar. I don't know what kind of like what kind of comedy are you looking for? Like Bridesmaids? I know, yeah, that's one of my evors. Something Bridesmaids is one of my favor or even like more boy funny movies like I don't.

1:07:11 Know, Old School, Hangover. Sure or something about Mary. I don't know. I just feel like there hasn't been really. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe. We just missed them. I don't I don't know, but yeah, I haven't really, we haven't seen anything like that in quite a while. Yeah, when life feels heavy, you just want to laugh sometimes. But I have a bone to pick with you, with me, how could that be? Well? After because we knew it was gonna snow, and because it's so cold, the salt isn't like, the roads haven't been great. Yeah for a couple of weeks. But we went to the grocery store because you know, we knew we weren't going to go out, and you like the number one rule of snow days is calories don't count.

1:07:52 And you didn't let me buy any good snacks, like we bought zero good snacks. We bought you guys, we bought lettuce and bend Anna's and what I mean what else? You were like, we don't need that. I would like to remind you, are you that you are an adult? And you forbid it right there? I did. I have witnesses at the Meyer. He was like, girl, put that down, you don't need that. Absolutely well, thank God for Alicia and her lovely snacks from BUCkies or this girl I know you. Would be going hungry. No, it just cracked me up because you you totally did the we have food at home saying, which you know our our. Kids would say. If there's one thing I do right as a mod, it's like, I'm pretty good at snacks. Oh yes, if if there's a snow day, you need cookies, like homemade cookies usually, Yeah, I am going to make cookies later for someone's specials birthday.

1:08:43 Yeah, we will. Have some cookies. So I'm just using you. You didn't forbid it, but you were not very much fun. And then on the way home we were going to stop and get something and then you're like, oh, we don't need so and he wasn't hungry. Yeah, I know if you're not hunger, I guess I know you did offer to stop one who wants to eat bad, unhealthy fast food by themselves. Yeah, definitely that's true group experience. Eat everyone in the car to want McDonald's, not just one person. I'm so sorry I did not, but. I came home and had an apple and I'm oh, well, yeah, really thrilled that. What more would you have wanted? Right exactly? Yeah, thank you all so much for listening. If you would like to listen to part three right now. You can join us on Patreon dot com slash Love Marykill.

1:09:27 We have one tier and for that you get early ad free access, and when we do multipart episodes, you get to hear them all at once rather all. For one tier for five dollars a month. What a bargain. We are so grateful for everyone's support. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com. We love to hear from you. Now. You can find us on YouTube and Reddit really quick before we go. If uh, we can't find us on Reddit, you can find us on tac. I am just saying, oh you can't. I'm fine because I read it, but hard because you might find some negative things alto. I don't really know. I haven't checked it a long time. But sometimes we're getting a lot more messages and sometimes I have a hard time keeping up with them. So don't feel bad if you have to resend an email or resend a comment, because my intent is to respond to all of them, but sometimes they get a little lost. So until next time, don't kill your wife, and don't kill your husband,