Feb. 9, 2026

The Menendez Family - Part 2 of 3

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In August 1989, José, 45, and Kitty Menendez, 47, were shot to death in their Beverly Hills home. Their sons, Lyle, 18, and Erik, 21, would later confess to the killings—setting off one of the most polarizing murder trials in American history. What initially looked like a mob-style hit unraveled into a story of family control, extreme dysfunction, and disturbing allegations of long-term sexual abuse. The trials exposed the private life of a wealthy, image-driven family and forced the public to confront uncomfortable questions about trauma, masculinity, and male child sexual abuse.

Today's snack: Buc-ee's Beaver Nuggets and Buc-ee's Nug-ees Bold N' Sorta Spicy (thanks Alicia!)

Listen to all three parts today on Patreon: https://patreon.com/LoveMarryKill

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary, Kill.

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Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you?

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I am doing great?

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Do you think our listeners realize what we do? When

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it's your episode, you say, hi, I'm rich first, and

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when it's my episode. Do you think anyone has figured

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that out?

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Probably?

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Not, like it's some big secret, but it's just something

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we do.

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It just made it simpler for us because every time

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we would record, we'd be like, well, are you going

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to say it first? Or am I? And then we said, well,

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let's just do it. If it's your episode, you say it,

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and vice versa.

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All right, we're letting you in on the fourth wall today,

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showing you how things are done.

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Breaking down that fourth wall.

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One thing that happens, speaking of breaking down the fourth wall,

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is when we have multi part episodes. Because we give

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our patrons early access to all the parts, we have

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to record the whole series within a few days and weeks.

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In this case, all three parts of the Menendez.

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Case we're recording them still. It's Sunday, January twenty fifth.

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The winter storm Fern is still going on, and we're boring.

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We're boring. We don't have anything to talk about because

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we recorded yesterday.

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And I didn't know the winter storm had a name.

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Yeah, they started naming bad winter storms a few years ago.

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I think I could be wrong, maybe they've done this

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for a long time. But yeahern Bern is upon us. Okay,

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not so bad. I mean, probably more snow than originally.

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They were like one to three. It's probably going to

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be at least five. I would guess we're fine.

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I just don't like the long stretches of like weeks

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and weeks with it not getting above you know, fifteen

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twenty degrees. Just like a break once in a while.

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That's all I would care for.

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Yeah, I would love to take a walk.

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Yeah.

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I almost had to cancel our recording today so I

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could clean the house. There's something about this time of year.

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Everything feels grimy and dirty and dusty.

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You get these modes once in a while.

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Yeah, and that's your favorite, Tina. When I'm in the

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middle of a cleaning frenzy.

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Sometimes some days when I sense that you are going

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down that. Oh I've got some meetings. I got to

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go close my door.

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Yet, Yeah, you are not the best helper when it

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comes to cleaning unless I get help. Well, I have

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to tell you. I mean I don't want to, you

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know what, open too many podcast secrets here, but you

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know I get irritated when I have to do it all.

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But there are some things that you are very helpful.

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But before we get into today's episode, I'm going to

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give you an opportunity to look like you're really smart

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or maybe not. Do you want to give us a

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football prediction because we're recording.

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Yeah, there are the two championships.

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Super Bowl Sunday happened yesterday.

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Right when this episode is released. For most people, the

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Super Bowl will have been over already. But where while

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we're recording this right now, the NFC and AFC championship

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games haven't been played. I think they're starting right about now.

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But yes, I have given I have put some time,

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and I have put together a scientific prediction.

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Did you know.

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Yeah, I warned you. Okay, yeah, you warned me. So

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I believe the Super Bowl will be the Seahawks against

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the Patriots, and I believe the Seahawks will win and

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the score will be twenty four to twenty three.

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It's going to be.

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Really close to me.

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Wow, all right, you heard it here.

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I'm feeling quite common.

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I am at a project. It's going to be the

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Bears and the Lions, and the Bears are going to

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win two hundred to zero.

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I am going to predict that you are going to

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be wrong. I'm pretty confident of that.

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All right. I have a couple of snacks for you. Okay,

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they're from our friend Alicia from Amarillo, Texas, who sent

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us that lovely package. I actually, I'm not even exaggerating.

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I almost ordered some beaver nuggets the other day because

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I was like, gosh, beaver nuggets sound really good. Yeah,

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but Alicia sent us some beaver nuggets. She sent us

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the traditional ones, which we've had before. But I am

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in the mood today where I could just eat this

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whole blag. So during the podcast, i'll share, I'll share

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a little. But so there's the regular ones. And then

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she said, I've never seen these, the bold and spicy.

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So those are beaver nuggets too.

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Yeah, these are beaver nuggets too.

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Oh interesting.

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Yeah, And I am wearing the Texas socks that Alicia said,

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thank you so much, such a nice gift. Are you

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ready to try some beaver nuggets?

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Definitely?

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What did you think of the beaver nuggets?

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Well, the traditional beaver nuggets are amazing as always, such

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a great flavor, just a good a really good treat.

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Bold and spicy ones were interesting, very different good.

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Yeah, I really liked them.

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Reminded me a little bit of Cheetos.

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I definitely a lot like a Cheeto. The traditional ones

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are harder and chewier, but the yeah, the cheese ones

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were yeah, a lot like a cheeto. Yeah, really good flavor. Yeah, excellent,

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both a ten out of ten.

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I'm going to give the traditional beaver nuggets a ten

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out of ten. I'll give the bolden spicy a eight

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and a half out of ten.

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Okay, well, they might disappear and go into Tina's secret

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snack closets.

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Fair enough.

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Well, thank you for coming back to part two of

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the Menendez Family Murders. I do want to reiterate the

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content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, family violence,

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and allegations of sexual abuse involving miners. Listener discretion is advised.

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Would you like to give a summary a Part one,

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I sure would.

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Jose Menendez emigrated to the United States from Cuba at

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sixteen after Fidel Castro came into power. He descended from

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a long line of elite athletes and high achieving professionals.

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His mother alone had won five Olympic gold medals. Jose

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distinguished himself as intelligent, driven, and ruthlessly ambitious. While attending

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Southern Illinois University go su Luki's, he met Kitty Anderson

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and the two married. As Jose began climbing the corporate ladder,

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amassing rapid financial success and power. Together they cultivated the

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image of a driven elite family, raising their sons, Lyle

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and Eric in a home ruled by control, discipline, and

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extreme expectations. From a young age, the boys were pushed

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relentlessly in sports and academics, while warmth, safety, and emotional

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freedom were largely absent. As they entered their teen years,

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both became increasingly rebellious. Lyle was caught in a plagiarism

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scandal at Princeton, and the brothers were later tied to

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a string of burglaries. By the end of Part one,

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tensions had reached a breaking point when Eric confided to

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Lyle that the sexual abuse he suffered at his father's

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hands had never stopped. They felt that their parents would

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rather kill them than have their secrets exposed. Lyle and

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Eric bought two shotguns for protection.

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Part two begins twenty four hours before the murders. When

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you were giving the synopsis, as you said, go sulukis.

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Do you want to tell everyone what a seluki is?

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I don't know what.

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Oh you don't.

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I know. It's the mascot of Southern Illinois University.

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It's a dog. It looks kind of like a great

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flat dog, like ah, like a grand It's like a taller,

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thinner dog. Okay, I'm from Illinois, and back in the day,

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Southern Illinois University I think was a top ten party school.

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Oh really, mm hmm.

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So on Saturday, August nineteenth, the family planned to go

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shark fishing together. Jose had an important client who enjoyed

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shark fishing, so he decided to go first before taking

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the clients, so it would look like he knew what

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he was doing. When Kitty told the boys that they'd

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pushed their departure back to the evening, Lyle and Eric

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were worried. That the time had changed so their parents

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could kill them under the cover of darkness. The boys

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stayed out most of the day, hoping their parents would

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leave without them. They were supposed to depart at three,

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but when Lyle and Eric finally returned at four, their

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parents were still there waiting for them. They all went

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to the marina together and they arrived I think at

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about four thirty. The chartered boat was small, just thirty feet.

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Kitty remarked on its size as they boarded. There were

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three additional people on the boat, the captain, his friend,

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and a deckhand. That day, the water was choppy and

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both Kitty and Jose became seasick. For most of the trip,

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Kitty stayed below deck except when they were dolphins or

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seals bobbing alongside the boat, and Jose called her to

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come and see them. Lyle and Eric gave their parents

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a wide berth and huddled together at the back of

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the boat. Even the captain noticed their odd behavior. He

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found the family distant and snooty. They didn't return to

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land until eleven thirty PM, so that was a long

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day that they were on the water, and the captain

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said it was a little chilly and the waters were choppy,

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and everyone was wearing shorts and the boys didn't have

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windbreakers on, so they were chilly and shivering and the

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water splashed up on them. And he thought it was

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odd that they didn't go below deck where Kitty was

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when it was warmer, and they didn't come up to

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the front where he and Jose were fishing.

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And interesting that he would note that.

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Yeah, So when they returned, Kitty and Jose went to bed,

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but Lyel and Eric went out to discuss their plan.

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When they returned, the door was locked and they had

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to wake up an angry Kitty to get inside of

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the house. She screamed at her sons and said that

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she wished they'd never been born, then went back to bed.

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Jose pounded on Eric's door and demanded he be let in,

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but he cowered in the corner holding his shotgun. Jose

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told him he couldn't hide forever and retreated back to

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the bedroom.

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When I hear some of these stories, like about Kitty

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saying telling them I wish you'd never been born, it

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makes me wonder this account must be coming from them,

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from wild Liel and Eric.

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This is Lyel and Eric's retelling of the story.

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So it makes me wonder how how reliable that is,

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you know, just because I'm sure they were trying to

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cover their tracks afterwards.

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Absolutely remember that other people had heard Kitty say, I

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wish I'd never had my son's And that's the reason

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why I brought up the boat captain's account, because he said, yeah,

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it was kind of strange that the boys just huddled

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in the back of the boat for seven hours.

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Yeah, so there are some independent confirmations some of these things.

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At least, but you're right, it's important to remember that

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a lot of this is framed from their account. The

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next morning, no one was talking. Lyle and Eric laidlow.

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Later that night, they decided to go see a movie

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to get out of the house, but their parents forbid

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them to go out. Kitty and Jose went into the

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TV room and closed the doors. The brothers worried that

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their parents were plotting their deaths. They decided it was time.

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They gave each other a nod and retrieved their shotguns.

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Kitty and Jose had dozed off. They were jolted awake

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when the boys burst through the French doors, firing. Lyle

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shoved Eric forward and Eric fired the first shots at Kitty.

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Jose jumped up and yelled no, no, no, as the

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bullets from Lyle's gun peppered him. Soon the room was

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in ruins, thick with smoke, blood spattered across the walls

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and floor. Out of the corner of his eye, Lyle

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saw Kitty moving, trying to crawl away. He emptied his

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shotgun in the ambush, so he had to run to

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his car, where he'd stash the extra ammunition. He loaded

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a single bird shot shell and headed back inside. Moments later,

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he fired again, delivering the fatal shot to his mother's head.

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Lyle and Eric stood for a moment and looked at

238
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the wreckage they'd caused. Eric shook with sobs, and Lyle

239
00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.840
carefully picked up the spent shotgun casings. They expected that

240
00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.399
a neighbor must have heard the barrage of gunfire and

241
00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.200
called the police. They waited a few minutes for them

242
00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.840
to arrive. When they didn't hear approaching sirens, they wondered

243
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.480
if they'd gotten away with it. They decided to take

244
00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:51.879
their chances and escape the scene. Lyle, as usual, was

245
00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:56.080
in charge. He was calm, cool and calculated, already thinking

246
00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:59.639
about what to do next, while Eric vacillated between sobs

247
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.240
and on disbelieve over what they'd done. They got into

248
00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.960
Eric's car and drove off into the night, trying to

249
00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.200
figure out a plan. Realizing they were covered in blood spatter,

250
00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:11.759
they changed into some of the extra clothes that Eric

251
00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.440
kept in his car for tennis practice. Just carding their

252
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.000
soiled clothing along with the shotgun, shelves and a gas

253
00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.799
station dumpster, they headed to the theater, choosing License to

254
00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.480
Kill because they'd already seen it and thought it could

255
00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:27.639
serve as an alibi. But when they arrived sometime after

256
00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.600
ten thirty PM, they asked for tickets to a show

257
00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:34.080
that it had already started. The cashier told them that

258
00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:36.840
the movie had started more than twenty minutes earlier, and

259
00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:39.639
she wasn't allowed to sell tickets once a movie was

260
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.480
that far underway. Instead, they bought tickets to Batman, a

261
00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.159
later show, hoping the time wouldn't be printed on the

262
00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.200
tickets to produce their alibi, but they never went inside.

263
00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.960
Lyell frustrated through the ticket stubs in the trash. The

264
00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:57.120
later showtime didn't comport with the alibi that they were

265
00:12:57.159 --> 00:12:59.039
hoping to establish, so They.

266
00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:01.639
Were hoping to buy tickets to a movie that had

267
00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.879
started earlier, so that they could show the tickets stub

268
00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:05.639
and side, Oh look we were in this movie.

269
00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.799
Yeah, exactly if a neighbor said, oh, I heard gunshots

270
00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.799
at nine pint thirty, they could say, oh, we were

271
00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:14.519
seeing the movie. So instead, Lyel and Eric wandered the streets,

272
00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.720
killing time, constructing their story, rehearsing their anguish voices for

273
00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:20.879
the nine one one call that they knew they'd have

274
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:25.720
to make. Somewhere along Mullholland Drive, near Coldwater Canyon, they

275
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:29.919
dumped the Mossburg shotguns, never to be seen again. Lyel

276
00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.159
and Eric only had minutes to meet their friend Perry

277
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.519
before the Taste of La Food Festival closed to further

278
00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.440
substantiate an alibi, but when they arrived, they were scattered

279
00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.159
and couldn't find him. Perry was already home. They called

280
00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:45.159
him and pleaded with him to meet them at the

281
00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:48.559
cheesecake factory for a drink. Eventually they returned to the

282
00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:50.840
scene of the crime. Lyle placed the nine to one

283
00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:55.080
one call, his voice frantic, telling the dispatcher incredulously that

284
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.720
someone had killed their parents, except he only needed to

285
00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.440
look in the mirror to see who would actually killed them.

286
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.320
So we're going to play the nine one one call.

287
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:06.720
I debated about this, but you listened to it and

288
00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:08.600
you said you thought it added to the story.

289
00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.399
I think it's interesting to hear, to hear their voices

290
00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:13.559
and to hear how they were acting at that time.

291
00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.279
I know that some people find the calls triggering, So

292
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:17.519
fast forward.

293
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:18.679
How long is about two minutes?

294
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.519
Okay, fast forward two minutes if you don't want to

295
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.600
hear it.

296
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:22.600
Really openmerger.

297
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.559
What's the problem? So what's the problem. What's the problem

298
00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:39.000
jo with the pardon me? What are they still there?

299
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:40.679
The people.

300
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:47.519
When they shop? Right, not when I shot? If they

301
00:14:47.519 --> 00:15:00.440
were shocked, whatever, I have a.

302
00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.720
Hysterical person and I was trying to get to further

303
00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:11.759
everything that was funny. If the person still there, what happened?

304
00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:17.879
We have unit, youreund what happened? Who shot? Who?

305
00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.639
He came home and found who shot? Yeah?

306
00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:27.360
You know, if they're still in the house, the people

307
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:28.360
that did the shooting.

308
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:31.080
Get a wait?

309
00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:39.399
Wrong, okay, hey, let me talk to Eric. Let me

310
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:44.960
let who is the person that was shot? Mom and dad?

311
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.919
Right? Okay, hold on a second, Okay.

312
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.200
We're on away over there with the ambulance.

313
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.840
Okay, I gotta go. Okay.

314
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:01.480
I think that call is really hard to listen to.

315
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.679
It is very hard to listen to. But now that

316
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.759
I know they did the shooting and then they went

317
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.519
out and came back, and now that I know that

318
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.440
Lyle was very calm picking up the shotgun shells and

319
00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:15.519
all that kind of thing, it gives me a different

320
00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:17.759
perspective on the call than when I was chilling. Right,

321
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.879
it's chilling, but it feels very performative now that I

322
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:22.279
know that.

323
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.360
But two things can be true too. I mean, he

324
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:27.639
could have shot his parents and then he could have

325
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.159
regretted it. Yeah, two hours later he could have been like,

326
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:30.840
oh my god.

327
00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:31.799
What did we realize?

328
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.759
They were still eighteen and twenty one? They were really young.

329
00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:37.200
So I just want to point those things out. But yeah,

330
00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.159
I mean, if he is acting, he's a pretty good actor.

331
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:41.600
Yeah.

332
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.639
I mean, they were definitely or he definitely sounded hysterical

333
00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:45.600
and you.

334
00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:49.159
Can hear Eric in the background, and Eric was legitimately,

335
00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.360
I think, shattered by the whole experience for Lyle. We'll

336
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.440
talk about this more in the future, but Lyle was

337
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.759
the one that it was always kind of raised. He

338
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.080
was raised Differently told. He was told exactly. He was

339
00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.279
raised to be a man and to not have feeling.

340
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:07.519
So I think that's also an important thing to point

341
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.599
out here. Yeah, Lyle and Eric were questioned right away,

342
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:15.079
and immediately police noticed inconsistencies in their timeline. Each time

343
00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.440
Lyle told the story, it changed slightly, while Eric nervously

344
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.759
stood by his brother's side, remaining silent. They were taken

345
00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.160
to the Beverly Hills Police station around one am for questioning,

346
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.160
but were clearly uncomfortable being there. When detectives announced their

347
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.720
intention to question the brothers separately, Eric visibly rattled asked

348
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.920
if Mark Huffernan, his tennis coach, or Lyle could stay

349
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:41.640
with him, but officers firmly told him that wasn't possible. Shakily,

350
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.839
he asked if his parents were dead. Yes, the detectives

351
00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:48.440
confirmed they were. Eric cried throughout most of his interview.

352
00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.319
He had no idea who might have wanted his parents dead,

353
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.799
he told the police. The interview lasted only about half

354
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.880
an hour because of his emotional state. So I know,

355
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.680
he just killed his parents and we don't have to

356
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.839
feel that sorry for him, but he is just eighteen

357
00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:05.599
years old, and I don't think he realized what was

358
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:06.000
going on.

359
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:09.079
So eighteen and it sounds like he was emotionally scented.

360
00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.119
Yeah, Lyle was calmer during his interview. He told investigators

361
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.680
that Kitty had recently purchased another rifle because she'd felt

362
00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.799
unsafe in their home. Only my brother and I know this,

363
00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:23.279
he said, But she was on the verge of contemplating suicide.

364
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.759
She was she was very edgy and suicidal in the

365
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.160
last few years. And well, but she seemed very stable recently.

366
00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:34.119
Lyle didn't think his parents were murdered as the result

367
00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.039
of a robbery. He was emphatic that Jose was a

368
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.680
ruthless businessman who worked quote with a group of people

369
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.920
that from the stories that he brings home and the

370
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.799
people that I've met, these are a real cd group.

371
00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.480
And even though he was very aware of that, and

372
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.039
you know, I don't know if anyone would ever try

373
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.359
to kill my father, but my dad is a pretty

374
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.559
ruthless businessman, and well he believes in the bottom line,

375
00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:59.759
He continued, I could see how he could step on

376
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.119
a lot of toes. He was very curt He treats

377
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.640
my brother and I, you know, extremely well but firm,

378
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.160
and he was, well, he's a strong disciplinarian. He holds

379
00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.960
the family together well and well he runs the show

380
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.279
at work. It's the same way. You know, he yils

381
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:15.119
at a lot of people and he's running the show

382
00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:17.759
and he handles everything. I think you can tell here

383
00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.920
that Lyle is really trying to sell the mob angle

384
00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.720
it was. It was definitely a hit. Jose had once

385
00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:28.599
famously confronted Sylvester Stallone over his Rambo budget.

386
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:30.519
Well, that is a brave man to confront.

387
00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.160
You think that the studio would be like whatever you want, sly.

388
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:37.799
I just because Svester Stallone was you know, pretty big

389
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.920
muscular guy, and I wouldn't want to you know, I

390
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:41.359
wouldn't want to make him angry at me.

391
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.440
Right and you know, probably their biggest star at the time.

392
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.079
Absolutely well be back after a break.

393
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.519
Lyle wasn't the only one who suspected Jose's work may

394
00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.720
have gotten him killed. As Los Angeles woke the next

395
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.000
morning to the news of the shocking murders, an investigator

396
00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.680
told the La Times the murders stink of organized crime.

397
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.759
They went there to take care of business and to

398
00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:14.119
make a message clear. Hollywood insiders later joked that hundreds

399
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.000
of people were suddenly scrambling to get their alibis straight.

400
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.759
Jose Menendez had made plenty of enemies during his career.

401
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.079
Jose's employer, Live Entertainment, quickly organized a memorial service, in

402
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.279
part to shape the media narrative and push back against

403
00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:33.240
early rumors of their ties to organized crime. Jose had

404
00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:36.039
worked in the entertainment and home video business during a

405
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.359
period when certain corners of the industry were known to

406
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.799
attract organized crime influence. There was no evidence that Jose

407
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:47.359
himself was involved in anything illegal, but the climate of

408
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.279
the era, combined with his reputation as a ruthless businessman,

409
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.359
helped fuel speculation in the days after the murders. I

410
00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:58.279
am curious how much organized crime was involved in the

411
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:00.519
film business. As you know, I'm always fast mad by

412
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.480
the mafia and organized crime, and it would be an

413
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.319
interesting thing to research a little bit.

414
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:07.519
We're going to talk about this a little later. But

415
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:12.039
looking back on the home video industry, what videos were

416
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:16.200
the first videos that became big for home entertainment? Think

417
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.720
about it, think about it really hard. I don't know

418
00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:23.240
horn Oh, okay, so gotcha that that's why I organized crime.

419
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.440
That makes sense. On August twenty fifth, four hundred people

420
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.400
gathered at a posh theater at the Director's Guild of

421
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:34.200
America just off the Sunset Strip to Morn Kitty and Jose.

422
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.799
An hour after the event began, Lyle and Eric pulled

423
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.319
up in a stretch limo. Lyle delivered a lengthy eulogy,

424
00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:46.039
but attendees noticed that the brother's demeanors were cold. Lyle's

425
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.799
friend said, I've seen him get more upset about losing

426
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.279
a tennis match than he was about his parents' death.

427
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:55.240
Eyebrows were raised when Millie Vanilli's song Girl I'm Going

428
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.759
to Miss You was played at the end of the service.

429
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.480
I don't believe I'm familiar with that particular Millie Vanilli tune.

430
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:04.680
I am not surprised. That's not really your style of music,

431
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:06.799
but I have been listening to it a lot on

432
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.599
repeat ever since I watched the Netflix Monsters show. I

433
00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:12.640
don't even know how to describe this show. It's so

434
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.440
wild and over the top. But this scene that we

435
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.200
just described is the opening scene of that, okay, and

436
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.440
it is loose like the whole Monster series is more

437
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.279
than loosely based on their story, I'd say it's like

438
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.279
eighty percent true. But this particular scene is very over

439
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:32.880
the top. But that song was played at the end

440
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:35.359
of the service. But it was kind of you know,

441
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.599
when you go to a funeral sometimes they're playing music.

442
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.559
So it wasn't like but it is funny because they

443
00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:41.319
were like a girl, I'm going to miss you, like

444
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:42.000
it's for their mom.

445
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:44.319
Yeah, it's a little bit of an odd, odd.

446
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.200
Choice, a little over the top, a lot over the top.

447
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.119
After family members were notified in New Jersey and Florida,

448
00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:55.000
they rushed to California, many interested in Jose's finances curious

449
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.160
about the will, but one couldn't be found. When a

450
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.599
safe in the Menendez home was opened by locksmith, jewelry

451
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.920
and personal papers were found, but no will. The same

452
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.079
with a safe deposit box at the bank. Jose, in

453
00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.920
a rage over their behavior, that Summer, had told his

454
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.559
sons that he was disinheriting them. A will was eventually

455
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:18.319
located in a bathroom drawer dated nineteen eighty. They were

456
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.200
surprised to learn that they were the sole beneficiaries of

457
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.039
the estate, which was valued at about fourteen million. Dollars.

458
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.880
Do you think this is suspicious that the will was

459
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:28.880
in a bathroom drawer?

460
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.119
It is a very unusual place I would think to

461
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:35.559
find a will. Jose had told several relatives that he

462
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:39.160
was rewriting his will, and many questions remained about the

463
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.000
validity of the will that was found in the bathroom.

464
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.880
A document titled Will was found on Jose's hard drive,

465
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.920
but it was inaccessible the family, not Lyle or Eric,

466
00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:53.599
hired computer experts to access the hard drive, but before

467
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.160
they could get to it, Lyle hired someone to look

468
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:01.519
at the files, specifically ones named Lyle, Eric Menendez, and Will.

469
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:06.119
A man named Howard Whitkin from Leviathon Development worked on

470
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.480
the IBM computer but was unable to recover the files.

471
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:13.200
Although he determined that the will file only contained fifty

472
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:16.880
four characters, Lyle asked him to erase the hard drive

473
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.440
because he intended to sell the computer. Well, that seems

474
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.640
a little suspicious, wouldn't a lawyer like wouldn't Jose's lawyer

475
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.359
step forward and say, yes, I have the will? Or

476
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:30.640
yes Jose came to me.

477
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.079
I believe his lawyer said I don't have a will.

478
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.640
Okay, So maybe Jose didn't update.

479
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.200
It or didn't think he might have been in the

480
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.160
process of But remember, Jose's forty five years old. He's

481
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.839
a young man. He didn't have his affairs an order.

482
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.839
He didn't believe he had a reason to right.

483
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.039
Jose and Kitty were laid to rest in New Jersey,

484
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.079
with a funeral held eight days after the murders on

485
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:56.200
August twenty eighth. Two religious services were held, one Catholic

486
00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:59.480
and one Protestant. Jose had been a Catholic and Kitty

487
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.359
a Prohest. Their bodies were then brought to the Princeton Chapel,

488
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.200
where Lyle delivered a thirty minute eulogy. In his eulogy,

489
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.160
Lyle portrayed Jose as a man who lived an extraordinary life,

490
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:16.799
emphasizing his devotion to family, legacy, success, and generational achievement.

491
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:19.559
He told mourners that he and Eric would try to

492
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:21.839
live up to what their father had wanted for them,

493
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.119
and suggested that their parents would have preferred people put

494
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:29.839
on a brave face, move forward, and not dwell on grief. Allegedly,

495
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.400
Lyle told Marzi Eisenberg, Jose's assistant, my father once said,

496
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:37.720
you'll never fill my shoes guess what, I'm wearing my

497
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:38.960
father's shoes today.

498
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:44.000
So Marzie did say that Lyle said this, but during

499
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.240
the trial they actually looked back and saw that he

500
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.599
was not wearing his father's shoes that day. He was

501
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.599
wearing like green cowboy boots or something. Okay, I'm not

502
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:53.680
sure why she would have made that up. So in

503
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.599
the first couple of weeks after their parents' deaths, they

504
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.319
both are talking about what a great man their father

505
00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.240
was and how which they admired him and loved him. Right,

506
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.839
and the same with Kitty Like. They were just emphatic

507
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.079
how much they loved their parents. Yeah.

508
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:08.920
And do you think they were being sincere or do

509
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.599
you think they were trying to cover their tracks and

510
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:13.599
divert suspicion from themselves.

511
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.119
I think both things can be true.

512
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.680
Yeah. Days later, Lyle hired two personal security guards, claiming

513
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.279
he was afraid he was being watched by the mafia,

514
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.519
but in reality it was the FBI who were watching

515
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:28.960
his every move. After a couple of weeks, Lyle fired

516
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.640
the security guards. He told them that his uncle had

517
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.839
smoothed things over with the mafia, pleading for his and

518
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:39.599
Eric's safety. The brothers continued to present as opposites. Lyle

519
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:43.319
appeared confident and strong in the aftermath of his parents' murders,

520
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:47.119
freely speaking with the media who hovered nearby, while Eric

521
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:51.400
was visibly suffering, plagued by stomach aches and nightmares. He

522
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.920
was staying with Henry Yanniol, a male cousin twenty years

523
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.119
older with a family of his own in the San

524
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.440
Fernando Valley. Some nights, Eric was so hrm wanted he

525
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.680
would crawl into Henry's bed with him. Three days after

526
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:06.480
the murders, the brothers went to buy sports codes at

527
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:09.720
the mall for the memorial service. While there, they made

528
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.839
an impulsive stop at Slavak's Jewelers and bought three Rolex

529
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:18.039
watches and two money clips for just under seventeen thousand dollars.

530
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.799
They used Jose's platinum American Express card. The employee called

531
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.000
American Express to make sure the sale was authorized. The

532
00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:29.279
sale did. Clear Lyle and Eric had access to their

533
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:32.799
parents two hundred and fifty thousand dollars credit limit. In

534
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.960
the months after the murder, afraid to return to the mansion,

535
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.119
the brothers stayed at expensive hotels and flew freely between

536
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.039
the coasts it would take years to settle Kitty and

537
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.680
Jose's estate, but Jose's six hundred and fifty thousand dollars

538
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.599
life insurance policy quickly got paid out. Lyle bought a

539
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:54.799
sixty four thousand dollars Porsche nine one one Carrera. Eric

540
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:58.200
had more frugal tastes, buying a Jeep Wrangler for fifteen

541
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:02.440
thousand dollars. He also secured his tennis coach, Mark, offering

542
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.079
him a salary of sixty thousand dollars a year.

543
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.400
I think this scene here that we're painting is what

544
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.720
people remember most about the Menentaz brothers is they did

545
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:14.599
go on this crazy spending spree, and it wasn't just cars,

546
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.880
it was you know, clothes and audio video equipment. They

547
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:18.960
did kind of go crazy.

548
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:22.400
Not a good look. Lyle bought his favorite Princeton, New

549
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.599
Jersey chicken wing spot, Chuck's Spring Street Cafe, for five

550
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.640
hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He renamed it Mister Buffalo's,

551
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:33.920
with plans to expand to the West Coast. He told

552
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.359
Princeton's Town Topics newspaper that he wanted the restaurant to

553
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.640
have a Midwestern motif centered around health food and buffalo

554
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:44.799
wings to go together hand in hands.

555
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:46.960
I had to include that quote because I was like,

556
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:49.759
I mean health food and buffalo wings. What, I what

557
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:50.680
a great idea.

558
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:51.960
In a Midwestern motif.

559
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.599
No, Like, we've seen pictures of this restaurant and it's

560
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:57.519
it's still there, and it has really good reviews, but

561
00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:01.359
it looks like a little hole in the wall. So

562
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.000
I'm kind of surprised that it was five hundred and

563
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:05.079
fifty thousand dollars.

564
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.799
Lyle decided not to return to Princeton, choosing instead to

565
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.799
focus on becoming a businessman like his father. Upon abandoning

566
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.880
his pursuit of a Princeton degree, he said, I would

567
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.279
love to get the education, but I can't justify postponing

568
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.359
my dreams. Eric also deferred college, opting not to attend

569
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.720
UCLA that fall, instead turning his focus to his tennis career.

570
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.839
In the months after the murders, it was estimated that

571
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.880
the brothers spent more than a million dollars.

572
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:35.640
But half of that was on the business.

573
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.400
Relatives urged them to slow down, warning that the inheritance

574
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:44.359
wouldn't last forever. Still, many of those same family members

575
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.640
viewed the extravagant purchases less as reckless spending and more

576
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.599
as a coping strategy, a way to spend, distract themselves

577
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.920
and blunt their grief. The mansion had been repaired, but

578
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.480
the brothers were too traumatized to live there. Instead, they

579
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:02.880
rented a an apartment together in Marina del Rey. They

580
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:04.880
turned it into a real bachelor pad.

581
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:07.400
All right, buckle up, I'm about to take you on

582
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.200
a little bit of a ride. Okay, do you remember

583
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:10.799
doctor jerome o'zeal.

584
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.480
I remember that was Eric's therapist.

585
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:18.880
Well after they were arrested for the burglaries, they were

586
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.440
forced to go see him, and I think it was

587
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:22.920
mostly Eric, but Lyle did see him as well. I

588
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.440
think they might have had some family therapy with doctor

589
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.279
Ozel too. Remember doctor Ozell had signed some waiver that

590
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.000
he would share share everything with you, share everything with hos.

591
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:36.119
Weeks after his parents' murders, Eric continued to be haunted

592
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:39.720
by nightmares of their deaths, violent intrusive dreams that jolded

593
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:43.160
him awake and left him soaked in sweat, his heart racing.

594
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.119
In his waking hours, he was raw and unmoored, swinging

595
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:52.240
between panic and numbness, barely functioning not eating unraveling. He

596
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.319
and Lyle had seen the psychotherapist doctor Jerome Ozeal years

597
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:59.880
earlier when they'd gotten into trouble for the burglaries. Eric

598
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.960
called o'zell the day before Halloween and requested the last

599
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.519
appointment for the day. He didn't want to be seen

600
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:09.880
by anyone in the office, He explained. O'zeal had seen

601
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.440
the news and he had a suspicion that the brothers

602
00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:14.839
knew more than they were telling the police. He had

603
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.799
actually gone to see them several times at the Beverly

604
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.319
Hills Hotel where they were staying, but he hadn't seen

605
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:24.039
them since the funeral, so I think he saw them.

606
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.440
He went to see them at least three times just

607
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.519
to check on them, and each time he built them okay.

608
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.440
So Eric arrived on time for the appointment. He spent

609
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:35.119
an hour with the doctor talking about his parents and

610
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.079
what a great man his father was. Then he asked

611
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:40.920
if they could take a walk together. That's when Eric

612
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.759
blurted out, we did it. Eric later explained why he

613
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.319
felt the need to confess. I was having trouble telling

614
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.440
him about why I was suicidal since I hadn't told

615
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:53.920
him that I killed my parents, and he wasn't really

616
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:56.079
getting it. So I just decided that I needed to

617
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.079
tell somebody, and I decided to tell him right then.

618
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:01.799
I really wanted him at that point to tell me

619
00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:04.440
that I wasn't a bad person, and he couldn't do

620
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.799
that unless he knew that I killed my parents. Eric

621
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.480
described their murders as the perfect crime. Ozell promised Eric

622
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:15.279
that whatever he said to him was confidential. Ozell asked

623
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.440
Eric if Lyle knew he was there. Eric said no.

624
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.599
Ozell was so concerned about how Lyle might react to

625
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.400
finding out Eric was in his office that he later

626
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.559
said he feared for Eric's life, but more likely he

627
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.240
was fearful for his own life.

628
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:31.480
Yeah, that makes sense.

629
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.279
Ozell then called the Menendez mansion. Lyle and his girlfriend

630
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:39.079
Jamie were there handing out Halloween candy. When Ozell asked

631
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:42.319
him to come to the office, Lyle understood immediately what

632
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.240
it meant. He got in his car and raced there.

633
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:48.640
It was about six thirty pm. This is where things

634
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.720
are a little foggy because we have differing accounts. Do

635
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:55.559
you remember Judelan Smith from part one? Mistress?

636
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:57.400
But I don't remember much about her.

637
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:59.720
Okay, well. She claims that she was in the waiting room,

638
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.920
but Ozel doesn't know if she is there or not.

639
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.400
This is one point that is contested between them. She

640
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.160
claims that she was there and overheard what was said

641
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.440
in the office, but Jerry said that he had no

642
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:14.640
knowledge of her presence and he hadn't called her and

643
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.200
asked her to be there. He was with the brothers

644
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:19.200
for over four hours, and he said that she could

645
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:21.640
have slipped in at some point and been there without

646
00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:25.200
his knowledge. When Lyle arrived, Ozel invited him into the

647
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:28.000
office and asked him to sit down. Your brother has

648
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:31.880
told me everything, he simply stated. Lyle blew up at Eric.

649
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:36.440
Ozell described his demeanor and words as very threatening. Later,

650
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:40.079
Ozell and Smith testified under oath that Lyle said, now,

651
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:41.759
I hope you know what we're going to have to do.

652
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.000
We've got to kill him and anyone associated with him,

653
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:50.000
him meaning Eric, no Oziel, oh gotcha. Hours later, after

654
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:53.000
Lyle and Eric left, Ozell thought he was in danger.

655
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.400
He called his wife and told her that she and

656
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.240
the children needed to leave town. Then he made several

657
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:01.440
other calls, uncertain of how to aproach the situation and

658
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.240
stay safe. He called another psychologist, who suggested that he

659
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.599
leave a detailed account of what had transpired and put

660
00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:12.480
it in multiple safe deposit boxes. Ozelle thought that he

661
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.639
could diffuse the situation between Lyele and Eric and called

662
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.079
them and convince them to come back for another session

663
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:21.960
on November two. While his wife left their home, he

664
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.840
stayed with Judelan for several days, although he insisted that

665
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:29.920
she wasn't his girlfriend. Ozel later said that Lyle showed

666
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:33.800
clear sociopathic traits. He feared that he could kill again,

667
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:38.159
either himself or even Eric. In contrast, Ozell said that

668
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:41.400
Eric showed remorse over his parent's death. And I'm not

669
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.760
sure if Ozell recorded one or both of these sessions,

670
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.239
but there were several audio tapes of their sessions in

671
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:54.280
his possession, one with a clear confession. Ozel purchased three shotguns,

672
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.400
one for himself, one for his wife, and one for Judelan.

673
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.599
So Eric confided in Ozelle that he he'd been thinking

674
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:03.599
of killing his father for a month. He began thinking

675
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.199
that life would be easier without him breathing down his

676
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:10.320
neck all the time. And remember when jose had said,

677
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:12.760
you're not going to use You're not going to live

678
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.760
in the dorms, You're going to stay at home. I

679
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.079
think that was a big turning point for Eric when

680
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.800
he realized that even though he was eighteen, his father

681
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:24.880
was still and really it was really unfair. I think

682
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.079
that he was a fairly good student. I think he

683
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:30.119
was a B student. And Lyle got to go away.

684
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.639
Lyle got to stay at Princeton and you know, fly

685
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:36.880
back and forth between New Jersey and California. Why wasn't

686
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:38.800
Eric given that same freedom.

687
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.920
Yeah, I could totally see that Eric would view that

688
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.800
as a double double standard.

689
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.920
Yeah, so Kitty would surely turn them in. So Lyle

690
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:47.960
and Eric knew that they needed to kill her too.

691
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.840
They didn't think that she would survive without Jose. Later,

692
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:55.719
prosecutors would argue that Eric had been influenced by the

693
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.760
Maid for TV mini series The Billionaire Boys Club, a

694
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:03.000
dramatization of real crimes involving wealthy young men and murder.

695
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.239
I claim the defense disputed, and there's actually no proof

696
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.679
that Eric has ever seen the movie. I'm thinking about

697
00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:10.840
doing that case in the future because it's a it's

698
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.559
a very interesting case around Thanksgiving. The mother of one

699
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:18.639
of Eric's closest friends. Craig Signarelli contacted the police through

700
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:21.320
her attorney. She told them that she had reason to

701
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.960
believe Lyle and Eric had murdered their parents.

702
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:26.639
So this is now, what about three months or so

703
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:30.360
after Fred and we're the police not suspecting Lyle and

704
00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:31.119
Eric at this point.

705
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:33.719
Now, remember they were like two weeks on, they were

706
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.679
pretty sure that they had something to do with it.

707
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.239
Okay, they're just taking their time.

708
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.159
Taking their time, and we have to remember that these

709
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:42.360
things take time a lot, a lot. And if they

710
00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:45.079
rushed to make an arrest, right, you know a lot

711
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.239
of times it all fall through and there's not enough evidence,

712
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:47.920
and yeah.

713
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:50.239
You only got one shot at it, so you better.

714
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:50.480
Do it right.

715
00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:54.760
Exactly. When the Menendez family moved to Calabasas, California, from

716
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:57.960
New Jersey in nineteen eighty seven, Eric and Craig became

717
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.559
fast friends after playing together on their high school tennis team.

718
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:04.800
Eric desperately missed Lyle, who was in New Jersey, and

719
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.320
his friendship with Craig quickly deepened, and away few others

720
00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:13.280
had together. They took long drives along California's scenic, winding highways.

721
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.519
They viewed themselves as more introspective than their peers, playing

722
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:20.000
chess for hours while having long conversations. But they also

723
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:25.320
dabbled in screenwriting, and one screenplay called Friends, Eighteen year

724
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.840
old Hamilton Cromwell murders his sleeping parents to inherit their

725
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:33.679
one hundred and fifty seven million dollar fortune. Kitty even

726
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:37.440
type the sixty two page screenplay for him. Wow, here's

727
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:43.000
one seemingly autobiographical passage about Hamilton's father. Sometimes he would

728
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:45.119
tell me that I was not worthy to be his son.

729
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:48.320
When he did that, it would make me strive harder,

730
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.119
just so I could hear the words I love you, son.

731
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.320
And I never heard those words.

732
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:57.719
Wow. I can't imagine how Kitty must have felt typing that, Oh.

733
00:37:57.639 --> 00:37:59.360
You like, oh yeah, I'll help you all do this.

734
00:37:59.519 --> 00:37:59.960
I guess.

735
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.320
I want to point out here too, that the one

736
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:05.320
hundred and fifty seven million dollar fortune that the Cromwell

737
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:09.679
family allegedly had, Eric and Lyle thought that their parents

738
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:12.920
had more than the fourteen million dollar estate. It was

739
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.880
estimated that they thought the estate just it wasn't much.

740
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.880
They would inherit much more than the fourteen million dollars,

741
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.159
which should have been plenty. Really, Eric hoped that Jose

742
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.920
would read the script and get it into the right hands,

743
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.000
but there's no evidence that he ever read it. So.

744
00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:30.679
About twelve days after the murders, Craig went to check

745
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.960
on Eric at the Menendez mansion, worried about him. He

746
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.480
could see that Eric was unraveling. Eventually, Eric told his

747
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.880
best friend the truth that he and Lyle were responsible.

748
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.199
Craig later testified that he was stunned and unsure at

749
00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:47.920
first whether Eric was serious, but he kept talking, insisting

750
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.599
it was real, insisting it had happened. Unsure what to do,

751
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:54.800
Craig went home and told his mother, who then contacted

752
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:57.360
the police. Actually, this timeline tells me that he must

753
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.360
not have told her right away, or she didn't tell

754
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:00.880
the police.

755
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:01.599
Ride away.

756
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.320
While at Princeton, Lyle had also met a new best friend,

757
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.639
Donovan good Row. Donovan, a California native, was a rather

758
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:12.800
shady guy, living out of his truck. He told Lyle

759
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.960
that he'd be attending Princeton the following year, although he wasn't.

760
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.440
He never even applied. Lyle invited him to move into

761
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:24.840
his suite. One night, over dinner, Donovan confided to Lyle

762
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.599
that he'd been sexually abused as a child at the

763
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.440
house of a friend, prompting Lyle to share his own

764
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.000
painful experience of abuse. He told Donovan that his father

765
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.599
had sexually abused him and Eric since they were small

766
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:40.320
boys and they often shared baths or showers together. The

767
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:44.559
living arrangement lasted two months. When cash and other valuables

768
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:48.159
went missing, Lyle's roommates packed up his belongings and forced

769
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:51.360
Donovan out, and their hurry to oust him the sweet

770
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.480
mates forgot to pack Donovan's wallet, which he never came

771
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:57.800
back for. Lyle wouldn't see this friend again until years

772
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.400
later at his murder trial. So we mentioned Donovan in

773
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:04.119
part one. Do you remember I don't know when they

774
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.039
purchased the shotguns? They used his ID. So this idea

775
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:12.800
that was left behind, gotcha Lyle had pocketed interested it.

776
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:22.519
Yeah, we'll be back after a break. After Jose and

777
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:25.880
Kitty's death, police quickly noted that the front door was

778
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.199
open with no signs of forced entry, and the security

779
00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:33.119
system was unarmed. Nothing was taken from the home. One

780
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.599
thing that stood out was that, despite the number of

781
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:39.639
shots somewhere between fifteen and twenty, there were no shotgun

782
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.639
casings found they must have been picked up by the shooter,

783
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.320
which is not something a hired hit man would take

784
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.000
the time to do. That's interesting because my first thought

785
00:40:48.119 --> 00:40:50.440
was that that would be something a hired hitman would do.

786
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.400
But I guess there's no reason for it, right, I mean,

787
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.880
the shotgun shells aren't going to be really important evidence

788
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.480
in most cases. Within a week, the Beverly Hills Police

789
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.039
Department honed in on Lyle and Eric as suspects, Although

790
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:05.719
there was no direct evidence tying them to the crime scene.

791
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:09.079
Their behavior was suspicious and police didn't believe it was

792
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:09.760
a mob hit.

793
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.519
Live Entertainment, who Jose was working for at the time.

794
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:15.800
They even thought that it could be a mob hit.

795
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:20.159
After he learned of Kitty and Jose's murders. Donovan Goodroau,

796
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.360
Lyle's former best friend and roommate, reached out to the

797
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:27.440
lead detective in the case. Less zolar Zohlar had also

798
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:33.159
investigated the Billionaire Boys Club after Craig Signorelli's mother contacted police,

799
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.519
They asked him if he would wear a wire to

800
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.239
try to coerce a confession from Eric. He agreed. They

801
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:43.039
met at Gladstone's along the Pacific Coast, Highway in Malibu

802
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:46.239
for dinner. But now that Signorelli was wearing a wire,

803
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:50.039
Eric was closed off. Craig said, you already told me

804
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:53.400
you did it. Eric bristled, don't fuck with that anymore.

805
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:55.719
You know I didn't kill my parents. There's no way

806
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:58.360
I could have ever done that. Eric said that he

807
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.639
thought it was a hit by the mafia or even

808
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.480
Fidel Castro. He'd pay a million dollars to catch the killer.

809
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.360
Over dinner, they talked about making their own fortunes. Eric

810
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.559
said they should focus on becoming senators one day. Do

811
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.320
you think Eric suspected that Craig was wearing a wire?

812
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:18.480
I wonder if maybe Craig could have chipped Eric off.

813
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:22.800
Oh maybe, After Craig failed to get a confession, he

814
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.480
whispered into the wire. Well, I guess that didn't help much, huh.

815
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.400
In January, police raided the Signorelli's home looking for anything

816
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.440
related to the Menendez murders. Furious at the police after

817
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:38.119
he'd been so accommodating, Craig faxed the following missive to

818
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:43.239
the Beverly Hills Police Department. Fate and circumstance sometimes forge

819
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:46.519
unexpected allies. As I walk through the Valley of the

820
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:50.920
Shadow of Death. I shall fear no evil. Betrayal signifies evil.

821
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.159
Living is an art, necessitating tact, not fueled by greed.

822
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:59.000
This you shall suffer from ignorance. You are not to

823
00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:02.159
be trusted. And as they looked out over their empire,

824
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:05.079
they were saddened, for there were no more lands left

825
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:10.639
to conquer. Hamilton Cromwell, Okay, good job reading that word salad.

826
00:43:11.119 --> 00:43:12.599
Hamilton Cromwell does.

827
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.719
That is the character in the screenplay there.

828
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.679
So it really smart. Sometimes, Yes, so I think this

829
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:20.480
is just that is a very strange I have no

830
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.440
idea what he was trying to say. I actually read

831
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.480
it through chat. I was like, what what does this mean?

832
00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:29.400
But I don't blame him for being angry. It was

833
00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:35.000
pretty underhanded that the police raided his house. Yeah, probably

834
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.199
felt like he might be holding something back.

835
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:40.280
Yeah, I guess so. But yeah, that message seems it

836
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.800
just sounds a little sort of unhinged in a way.

837
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:43.360
Mm hmm.

838
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.760
In December, Judelan Smith had a severe reaction to a

839
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:51.400
new antidepressant. She called Jerry o'zeal to take her to

840
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:55.239
the hospital. Afterward, she was badly shaken and didn't want

841
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:58.719
to be alone. Jerry and his wife Laurel, who according

842
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:02.519
to accounts, did not know about the affair, allowed Judelan

843
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:06.239
to stay overnight in their housekeeper's room until she felt better.

844
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:11.639
So, Laurel o'zil is also a psychotherapist, and I guess

845
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.079
at this time she thought that Judelan was just a

846
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:18.079
patient of Jerry's, which later on he would say, oh,

847
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.000
she was never a patient of mine, because you know,

848
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.159
that would be really bad to have an affair with

849
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:24.679
the patient.

850
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.199
Right.

851
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:27.599
So this do you remember the movie What About Bob

852
00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:29.280
or was it Do I Have? Do I have the

853
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:29.679
name right?

854
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:32.119
With Bill Bill Murray?

855
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:33.360
M Yeah, and.

856
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.599
Where Bill Murray develops kind of a fixation on his

857
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:38.440
therapist and wants to be his friend.

858
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.719
And Yeah, to me, this situation kind of sounds like that.

859
00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.920
Judelan keeps reaching out to Jerry for help, and you know,

860
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.880
he says, we're not involved, she's not my girlfriend, but

861
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:50.840
clearly there is some attachment there.

862
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:54.800
Yeah. Judelan was in a fragile state. At times she

863
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:58.639
was suicidal. At others she became volatile, threatening to go

864
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.440
to the police with what she knew about Lyle and Eric.

865
00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:04.599
She used that knowledge as leverage to remain in the

866
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:09.239
Ozeal's home. What happened during that period is disputed. Ozeal

867
00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:12.960
later said the relationship was over. Judelan claimed they were

868
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.199
still romantically involved and that they had sex. During her

869
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:19.719
stay in the house, Judelan appeared to enjoy being in

870
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.159
the Ozeal home and spending time with the children. Some

871
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.320
accounts have alleged that she behaved inappropriately toward the youngest daughter,

872
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.480
even suggesting she implied she could become a new mommy.

873
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:34.960
Weeks turned into months, and Smith remained in the house.

874
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:39.440
Ozell's wife, Laurel, later said the situation became so disruptive

875
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:43.440
that the family felt held hostage by Smith's presence. She

876
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:47.280
also said Judelan overstepped boundaries in the home, even re

877
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:51.320
arranging furniture while they were at work. Judelan later claimed

878
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:55.400
that Jerry had controlled her, held her hostage, abused her physically,

879
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:59.119
and even sexually assaulted her. In March, when she was

880
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.159
asked to leave the Ozell's allege that she threatened to

881
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:05.000
murder Jerry and his family, but this is hard to

882
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.079
believe because he continued to see her. In a late

883
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.599
night phone call before the trial, Ozell told Smith, We're

884
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.639
going to be stars, not exactly for the right reasons.

885
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:19.000
Although stars wasn't the right word, he wasn't wrong. People

886
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:23.039
were interested in the Bazaar coupling. Later in court, Judelan

887
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.159
revealed that she had once given Jerry an IOU for

888
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:30.199
five hundred sex acts that was signed by two witnesses,

889
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.159
her cats, Shanti and Ishi Kitty. I'm not sure an

890
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:36.760
IOU signed by cats would be legally binding.

891
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:37.719
Well.

892
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:42.000
I'm positive that she later rescinded that IOU because their

893
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.719
relationship deteriorated pretty quickly. And it's fun to laugh at

894
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:49.320
Judelan because she is like a quirky lady lady. But

895
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.960
I believe her account. Really, she was a beautiful lady,

896
00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:57.639
and she was a little quirky. But Jerry is a

897
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:01.800
piece of garbage and he can't be trusted. And I

898
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:04.480
do think that he might have wanted her at his

899
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.039
house to control her because he didn't want her.

900
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:09.519
To go to the police.

901
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.320
In March nineteen ninety, when Lyle heard that two detectives

902
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:17.440
from the Beverly Hills Police Department visited mister Buffalo asking

903
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:21.880
about him, he became very nervous, even hiring another bodyguard

904
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.039
for six months. He'd been under the impression that he

905
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.480
and Eric had committed the perfect crime, but the walls

906
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:32.119
were closing in on him. Days later, law enforcement got

907
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.480
the break it had been waiting for. On March sixth,

908
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.360
Judelan Smith met with detectives and a Los Angeles County

909
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:43.360
Deputy District attorney for six hours. She told him that

910
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.119
she had overheard the Menendez brothers confessing to Jerome o'zeal

911
00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.000
and that she could lead them to a recording of it.

912
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.440
Two days later, a search warrant was executed on the

913
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.239
Ozell's home. They were looking for six audio tapes from

914
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:02.360
the Menenda's sessions, along with Jerry's appointment diary and the

915
00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:06.599
keys to his safe deposit boxes. Laura o'zell called Jerry

916
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:10.239
and told him to come home immediately. Unsure what to do,

917
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:15.639
he contacted his attorney and the American Psychological Association for guidance.

918
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:19.920
He was told to cooperate in cases like this involving

919
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:25.280
potential doctor patient confidentiality. A special court appointed attorney is

920
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:28.880
present during the search to review the evidence, to determine

921
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.719
what is legally admissible, and to protect anything that must

922
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:33.679
remain privileged.

923
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.679
That's trually interesting. I would think if if you had

924
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:41.119
audio tapes of your session with your psychiatrist or psychologists,

925
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:44.559
that that would be confidential, right, because it's something you're

926
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:45.960
saying in this session.

927
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:49.840
Yes, you're right, and that is a question that remains

928
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:53.920
in this case. Interesting Lyele Menendez was arrested in front

929
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:58.239
of his parents' mansion on March eighth, nineteen ninety fifteen.

930
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.840
Officers in bulletproof e acts with guns drawn pulled him

931
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:04.199
from Eric to jeep and threw him to the ground,

932
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:08.960
handcuffing him as his two friends looked on stunned. Eric

933
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:12.000
was competing in a tennis tournament in Israel, but as

934
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:14.199
soon as he heard the news, he and his coach

935
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:17.920
Mark Kaffernan returned to the US to surrender to police.

936
00:49:18.280 --> 00:49:21.280
When he landed at Lax at two a m. Detectives

937
00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:24.159
were waiting to arrest him. He was relieved there were

938
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:27.280
no TV cameras to document the moment. He asked not

939
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:30.400
to be handcuffed, but officers told him it was necessary.

940
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.079
He was then taken downtown and booked. Lyel and Eric

941
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.639
had strong support from both sides of their family, except

942
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:41.719
for two of Kitty's brothers, Brian and mort Many attended

943
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:45.400
their first hearing on March twelfth. Their grandmother, Maria even

944
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.559
suggested to her daughter Marta that they should hire people

945
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:51.679
to break Eric and Lyle out of jail, no matter

946
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:54.880
the cost, because they were unjustly being held. She said

947
00:49:54.920 --> 00:49:57.519
she wanted to take them somewhere far away where they

948
00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.880
would never have to expose the secret of the Menendez family.

949
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:06.679
So that's interesting, right Lyel and Eric were each charged

950
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:09.840
with two counts of first degree murder and conspiracy to

951
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:14.679
commit murder. Included were three special circumstances that made them

952
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.280
eligible for the death penalty, lying in wait, multiple murders,

953
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:24.360
and murder for financial gain. They were denied bail, So

954
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.360
it's interesting that the charge murder for a financial gain,

955
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.239
which everyone thinks that's why they murdered their parents. They

956
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:35.000
were not indicted on that charged. The grand jury found

957
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:37.000
that there was not enough evidence for that charge.

958
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:37.559
Interesting.

959
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.480
Two weeks later, at their arraignment hearing, they pleaded not guilty.

960
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:46.320
They were criticized for appearing almost jovial with their legal team, smiling, laughing,

961
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.440
and in the public size behaving in ways that didn't

962
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:52.760
match the gravity of the charges. Robert Shapiro, one of

963
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:57.199
OJ's high profile attorneys, initially represented the brothers, but he

964
00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:00.679
was replaced by Leslie Abramson, who had an and especially

965
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.519
close bond with Eric. Jill Lansing, a friend of Abramson's,

966
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:09.280
was named as Lyle's attorney. Despite their confession to o'zeal,

967
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:13.159
there was strikingly little evidence directly tying the brothers to

968
00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:16.400
the crime, in part because of errors made by the

969
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.119
Beverly Hills Police Department on the night of the murders.

970
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.599
Remember that they hadn't searched their cars or they would

971
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:24.880
have found the ammunition, and they had never done the

972
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.760
gunshot residue test, which they definitely it would have been positive.

973
00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:29.000
Yeah.

974
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:33.199
And if investigators had looked into their movie Alibi, and

975
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:35.519
they'd gone to the theater and talked to anyone that

976
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:38.559
worked there, they actually had an argument with the person

977
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:40.880
that was selling tickets, and I'm sure she would have

978
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.239
remembered and said, oh, yeah, they never really saw a movie.

979
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.360
If a judge ruled that o'zell's tapes were inadmissible because

980
00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:49.559
like you pointed out.

981
00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:51.920
Doctor patient confidentiality, yeah.

982
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.679
The prosecution's case would be in serious trouble. What followed

983
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:59.360
was months, then years of legal fighting over whether those

984
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.760
recording could ever be heard by a jury. The defense

985
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:07.960
argued that psychotherapist's patient privilege should protect them and signaled

986
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:11.039
early on that they were prepared to challenge any adverse

987
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:15.159
ruling all the way up to the California Supreme Court. Ultimately,

988
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:19.800
that's exactly where the battle ended. California's High Court ruled

989
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:23.360
that key portions of the tapes could be admitted into evidence,

990
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:27.840
a decision that fundamentally shaped how the trial would unfold.

991
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.840
In the early nineteen nineties, news was shifting from print

992
00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.920
to twenty four hour cable coverage, and the world's fixation

993
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:38.079
with true crime was just beginning to take hold. With

994
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:41.920
the launch of Court TV, courtrooms were now open to cameras.

995
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:45.239
Trials were no longer summarized on the evening news. They

996
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.920
were broadcast, dissected, and consumed in real time by an

997
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:54.239
increasingly hungry audience. A Menande's case arrived at the front

998
00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:58.000
edge of that transformation, just before OJ and Nicole Brown,

999
00:52:58.039 --> 00:53:03.199
Simpson defendants became seletlebrities. Audiences debated guilt and innocence, not

1000
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:05.639
behind closed doors, in a courthouse, but at the water

1001
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:09.000
cooler and around kitchen tables, And with that shift came

1002
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:13.519
a new ethical dilemma. Woyeurism crept in and real grief

1003
00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:17.000
became content. From the beginning, much of the coverage framed

1004
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:19.800
the brothers not as potential victims of long term abuse,

1005
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:22.840
but as spoiled Beverly Hills brats who had murdered their

1006
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:26.719
parents for money. Once that narrative took hold, nearly every

1007
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:31.239
detail was filtered through it. When the sexual abuse allegations emerged,

1008
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:34.159
they were often treated less as serious claim and more

1009
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:37.760
as a shocking twist or a convenient defense strategy. The

1010
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:41.599
Menendez trial didn't just reflect public fascination with crime, but

1011
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:45.159
helped to find an era that turned it into entertainment,

1012
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:48.920
turning a complex family tragedy into a story that the

1013
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:53.119
public felt entitled to watch, judge and consume, and paving

1014
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:55.800
the way for pesky true crime.

1015
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:57.119
Podcast as.

1016
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:03.559
We definitely have some personally, we definitely have some guilt there.

1017
00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:06.280
Adjustment to life in jail wasn't easy for the brothers,

1018
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:09.920
especially Eric. He was only nineteen and felt very vulnerable.

1019
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:13.000
He couldn't eat or sleep. After razor blades were found

1020
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:16.360
in his cell. He was put in solitary confinement. Lyle

1021
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.280
was not allowed to mix with general population. He was

1022
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:20.760
considered a high risk inmate.

1023
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.559
So I'm assuming there was no bail offered because of

1024
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:26.440
the crimes that they committed allegedly committed.

1025
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:30.440
In June nineteen ninety, a seventeen page letter was intercepted

1026
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.800
by jail guards written to Eric from Lyle. The letter

1027
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:37.840
outlined a potential escape plan and discussed altering their appearance,

1028
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:42.920
obtaining new passports and countries without extradition treaties. The letter

1029
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:46.079
explicitly told Eric to dispose of it, but he couldn't

1030
00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:49.199
part with it. He hid it inside his mattress, and

1031
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.679
one passage, Lyle wrote, we alone know the secrets of

1032
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:56.159
our families past. I do not look forward to broadcasting

1033
00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:59.199
them around the country. I pray that it never has

1034
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.119
to happen. If it were not for you, I doubt

1035
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:05.320
I'd even try for manslaughter. I would rather try and

1036
00:55:05.480 --> 00:55:08.719
escape or die. I struggle with my belief that men

1037
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:14.159
take responsibility. Pleading abuse is not taking responsibility. So in

1038
00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:19.039
this letter, again we have this nugget about family secrets,

1039
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:22.039
and he once he's willing to die rather than to

1040
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:23.400
divulge those secrets.

1041
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:25.679
Yeah, that's interesting. And when he says, I doubt I

1042
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:29.320
would even try for manslaughter, he's saying he would.

1043
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:31.880
If they know that they are going to they know

1044
00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:34.760
that they are not going to be acquitted, so the

1045
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:38.599
lightest sentence they could get his manslaughter manslaughter exactly. The

1046
00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:41.960
letters discovery prompted changes in how the brothers were monitored

1047
00:55:42.039 --> 00:55:45.239
and housed, with authorities realizing there was a potential risk

1048
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.360
allowing the brothers to spend time together. In the months

1049
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:51.280
that followed, Lyle and Eric were visited by a parade

1050
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.920
of attorneys. One of them, a young lawyer named Steve Goldberg,

1051
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:58.320
had been handling matters related to the estate and gradually

1052
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:01.280
earned their trust. It was to him they turned when

1053
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:04.760
they decided they wanted to confess. They asked Goldberg to

1054
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.960
help facilitate the confession. First, they wanted to speak to

1055
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:11.000
their family, to explain how things had become untenable for

1056
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:13.679
them with their parents and how they'd been long standing

1057
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:17.840
victims of sexual abuse. For Lyle, the sexual abuse stopped

1058
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:21.079
when he was eight, but for Eric it started when

1059
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:24.000
he was six and never stopped until his father's death.

1060
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:26.880
The brothers had rarely talked to each other about the

1061
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:30.599
abuse they'd suffered until days before the murders. Remember, after

1062
00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:35.000
the tupei was ripped off. That's when they allegedly had

1063
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:38.400
the discussion and Lyle realized that Eric had been being

1064
00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:42.159
abused this whole time. Their family was forgiving and supportive,

1065
00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:45.320
and they said that they'd known that something was amiss

1066
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:48.960
with the family. Except again for Kitty's two brothers, everyone

1067
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:53.679
was behind them. During pre trial preparations, a forensic psychologist

1068
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.880
conducted extensive evaluations of both brothers. He concluded that their

1069
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:03.320
emotional development lagged far behind their chronological ages, placing Eric

1070
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:07.079
at roughly eight to twelve and Lyle closer to twelve

1071
00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:09.920
to fourteen. He believed that they were raised in a

1072
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:15.960
home marked by violence, emotional deprivation, and extreme unrealistic expectations.

1073
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:19.800
Throughout their sessions, he found them guarded and withdrawn, with

1074
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:23.360
a sense that they were concealing something significant. It was

1075
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.440
not until his twenty sixth meeting with Eric that a

1076
00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:30.559
core trauma was finally disclosed. Eric revealed that his father

1077
00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:33.440
had been abusing him from a very young age. He

1078
00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:36.880
and Lyle had made a pact never to reveal the abuse,

1079
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:39.840
the dark family secret they that had been gnawing at

1080
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:42.920
them for most of their lives. Eric confided in the

1081
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:46.719
psychologist that Lyle was set against ever revealing the abuse

1082
00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:49.519
he'd suffered, determined to bring it to his grave. Just

1083
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:52.559
days before the trial was set to begin, the story broke.

1084
00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:56.079
The media learned of the brother's allegations of sexual abuse

1085
00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:59.519
by their father and their mothers, alleged indifference and substance

1086
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:03.559
abuse disorder, and the defensive plan to center its case

1087
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:06.400
on self defense rooted in the abuse that they said

1088
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:07.360
they had endured.

1089
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:09.599
I have a couple of questions for you about this.

1090
00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.920
So this forensic psychologist, do we know if this person

1091
00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:16.599
was hired by the defense to conduct this evaluation or

1092
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:18.599
was it somebody hired by the state.

1093
00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:21.119
Yeah, that's a really good question and an important question

1094
00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:23.719
to ask. I am not sure they were seen by

1095
00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:27.440
a barrage of therapists, So I'm not sure who you

1096
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:29.840
know hired who. I think some are hired by the state.

1097
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:31.440
I think some are more objective, and I think there

1098
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.159
were definitely some hired by the defense too. But I

1099
00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:37.920
feel like what this psychotherapist is saying really makes sense

1100
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:40.760
to me. We talked about this before. How if you're

1101
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.639
being abused you cannot grow.

1102
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:45.639
Yeah, no, it totally makes sense as well.

1103
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:49.440
But because Lyle was abused, his abuse stopped earlier, I

1104
00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:53.400
mean the sexual abuse, not the other you know, the situations,

1105
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:56.280
So it does make sense that he would have been

1106
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:58.440
able to mature a little more. I don't know what

1107
00:58:58.440 --> 00:58:59.159
do you buy into this.

1108
00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:01.800
I'm just always a little cynical, especially when it comes

1109
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:04.960
to like expert witnesses, because as we've seen over and over,

1110
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:07.760
you can hire someone to say almost anything, and so

1111
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:10.079
I just always have a little bit of my guard

1112
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:12.840
up about these type of things. But it does make sense.

1113
00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:15.639
I mean, it does match up with kind of what

1114
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:18.960
we've learned about Lyle and Eric. My other question is

1115
00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:21.400
whether we know who leaked this story, because that's pretty

1116
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:22.760
self serving for the defense, I.

1117
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.679
Would I am pretty sure that Leslie Abramson. Do you

1118
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:27.000
know who Leslie Abramson is?

1119
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:29.039
You can picture her in my head. She has like

1120
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:30.320
really kind of crazy hair, right.

1121
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:33.280
Yeah, she's four foot nine, but she has at least

1122
00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.719
like four inches of you know, just with her hair.

1123
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.480
But yeah, she is else.

1124
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:40.079
She knows how to work the media, so.

1125
00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:42.679
She really does yeah, so I believe that she probably

1126
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:45.519
released this. It does it surprise you that the brothers

1127
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:49.119
had so much family support behind them except for Moreton Bryan.

1128
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:51.519
It does surprise me. And when you said that, it

1129
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:54.320
made me wonder because it made me wonder if they

1130
00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.719
were more concerned about family secrets getting out than they

1131
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.360
and reputation and things like that, because it it seems

1132
01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:04.199
like Jose was all about you know, appearances and reputation

1133
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:05.400
right he wanted he did is I.

1134
01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:07.280
Mean, a lot of families would would feel that, and

1135
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:07.760
you know.

1136
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:10.440
Yea, but it just sort of matches up with the

1137
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.599
family dynamics of Jose doing his kids homework for them

1138
01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:17.480
because he was more concerned about them getting in good great.

1139
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:20.159
Great, absolutely appearances everything with the Jose.

1140
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:22.920
Yeah, so it does surprise me that they were behind them,

1141
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:25.360
but it also makes me wonder about their their motives

1142
01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:26.320
for being behind them.

1143
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:26.840
Mm hmm.

1144
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:29.440
Do you believe that Eric's grief is genuine?

1145
01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:30.280
I do?

1146
01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:32.199
He really seems torture, doesn't he.

1147
01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:36.559
Yeah, he seems really tortured. And because of his emotional immaturity,

1148
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:39.440
as we've talked about, I do believe he was his

1149
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:43.519
growth was stunted. Emotionally, and yeah, it seems like he

1150
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:45.280
was very upset legitimately.

1151
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:48.119
Something that I keep thinking about is the brothers thought

1152
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:51.960
they committed the perfect crime, but they really didn't. No, Like,

1153
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.199
they got lucky because you know, the gunshot residue if

1154
01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:58.559
nothing else that definitely would have came up positive. And

1155
01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:03.320
it was a warm windows are open, and the houses

1156
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:07.840
are spread pretty far apart. If there's twenty gunshots, neighbor

1157
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:10.880
heard that, Yeah, well I think people did hear it,

1158
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:14.039
but it's Beverly Hills, so people, you know, kind.

1159
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:15.360
Of mind their own business.

1160
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:20.079
Yeah, exactly. And they waited for a few minutes before

1161
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:21.920
they left because they're like, oh, the police are going

1162
01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:25.239
to come because someone And so I don't really think, yeah,

1163
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:27.320
obviously did not commit the perfect crime.

1164
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:27.480
No.

1165
01:01:27.559 --> 01:01:29.760
I think they probably just felt like that after six

1166
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:32.519
months or whatever went by and no one arrested them,

1167
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:35.159
they probably thought, oh, you're getting off scott free.

1168
01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:37.400
Yeah. Do you think you can write off the spending

1169
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:39.960
as a trauma response.

1170
01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:43.119
I guess a little bit. I mean I just think,

1171
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:48.000
you know, even before their parents were killed, they were

1172
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:51.039
kind of entitled, right, and it just sort of seemed

1173
01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:53.320
like a little bit maybe trauma responds and a little

1174
01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:55.599
bit of like, wooh, we're free, you know, we could

1175
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:56.599
just do whatever we want.

1176
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.320
Now, that's what it appears. But remember they were not

1177
01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:04.239
in die on that charge of excessive like spending or

1178
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:08.800
killing for financial Yeah, and they did have access. They

1179
01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.039
both had their father's credit card. And I do believe

1180
01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:14.199
that there was abuse in the family, but it was

1181
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:17.360
never financial abuse. I think that their parents were financially

1182
01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.599
generous with them. Again, it had something to do with,

1183
01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:24.039
you know, reputation, and they wanted their kids to be

1184
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:26.840
well dressed and you know, have the best of everything. Yeah,

1185
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:30.960
although Eric drove I believe a Ford Escort and Lyle

1186
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:34.840
had this Alpha Romeo Spider which I vaguely remember what

1187
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:36.280
that looks like, but I have to believe that was

1188
01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:37.519
probably an expensive car.

1189
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:41.119
Yeah. Also, just if you think about any eighteen and

1190
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:44.519
twenty one year old kid that has suddenly has you know,

1191
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:48.280
essentially unlimited access to a credit card and money, it's

1192
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:50.719
not that surprising that they would have gone on a

1193
01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:51.400
spending spree.

1194
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:55.280
Look either, Yeah, definitely this is a hard question. But

1195
01:02:55.840 --> 01:02:58.480
why do you think they killed Kitty? Why didn't they

1196
01:02:58.519 --> 01:02:59.280
just kill Jose?

1197
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:02.119
That is a hard question because a lot.

1198
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:04.599
Of people would point to, well, if Kitty was alive,

1199
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.119
she would have inherited the fortune and they wouldn't have

1200
01:03:07.159 --> 01:03:08.360
gotten anything, right.

1201
01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:11.119
What, I can't remember what you said they told or

1202
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:14.039
Eric told his friend Craig that they had to kill

1203
01:03:14.119 --> 01:03:15.280
Kitty because she would have been.

1204
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:17.719
A witness or well, that was one thing that people

1205
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:19.360
point to, and like, she would have been a witness

1206
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:23.679
to the crime. But also they pictured Kitty as fragile

1207
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:27.440
and weak, and remember she has substance abuse disorder, and

1208
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:30.400
you know, she's kind of obsessed with her husband. Yeah,

1209
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:32.559
and they were saying she wouldn't have survived without him,

1210
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:35.039
But I would like to say she also could have

1211
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:37.159
thrived without her husband, right, you know.

1212
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:40.280
She was pretty miserable, but she felt like she kind

1213
01:03:40.280 --> 01:03:42.079
of had to stay with him in some ways, right,

1214
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:43.239
she felt a little bit still.

1215
01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:45.920
I remember her childhood. She had seen what her mother

1216
01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:48.480
went through with her divorce, and she said, that's not

1217
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:50.199
going to be me. I'm going to you know, save

1218
01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:52.280
my marriage, which a lot of women think is the

1219
01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:52.800
way to go.

1220
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:55.920
Yeah, but the real question is does could Lyle and

1221
01:03:56.119 --> 01:03:58.920
Eric have legitimately thought that? And yeah, I think they

1222
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:01.679
could have legitimately thought that she might not be able

1223
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.880
to get by without Jose around, or that she wouldn't

1224
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:05.599
want to be around.

1225
01:04:06.039 --> 01:04:08.440
Do you think that Lyle and Eric were treated differently

1226
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:12.079
because they were two wealthy boys from Beverly Hills rather

1227
01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:15.519
than you know, two guys from any other place.

1228
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:18.280
I don't know. I mean you're talking about like the

1229
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:21.280
fact that they didn't do a gunshot residue test on

1230
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:23.239
them right away, and they.

1231
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:26.360
Let Eric go because he was crying, and they were

1232
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:29.639
just nice to them. They were sympathetic, and they didn't,

1233
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:32.920
you know, cuff them right away. They didn't question them,

1234
01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:35.239
they didn't interrogate them, they questioned them.

1235
01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:39.920
To me, it feels more like incompetence than bias, But

1236
01:04:40.159 --> 01:04:41.320
I could be wrong. I don't know.

1237
01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:43.559
I think it was both. I think that they let

1238
01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:46.320
them off a little easy because they were, you know,

1239
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:47.800
two rich white kids.

1240
01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:49.840
I guess. But it just seems like if the police

1241
01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.800
had any suspicion that Lyle and Eric might have done this,

1242
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:54.880
that they would have done those things.

1243
01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:57.719
But that's also privilege, right, Yeah.

1244
01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:01.639
I suppose maybe they didn't suspect because you know, what

1245
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:04.280
would these why would these two wealthy boys kill their parents.

1246
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:06.760
Maybe we still have a lot to talk about, but

1247
01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:09.920
I promise we will wrap it all up in part three,

1248
01:05:10.039 --> 01:05:11.000
So please come back.

1249
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:11.599
I will.

1250
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:20.119
Well, I just looked out the window and it is

1251
01:05:20.159 --> 01:05:20.880
still snowing.

1252
01:05:21.159 --> 01:05:22.119
Yeah, it sure is.

1253
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:24.199
I think we were on the like, just the edge

1254
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:27.000
of the storm, and we ended up getting a little

1255
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:31.239
more than they originally anticipated. But yesterday, after we recorded

1256
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:35.039
part one, we went out and about see a movie.

1257
01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:38.480
I went to see a movie. We saw Hamnet, which

1258
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:42.519
it was. It was a It was a good cinematic experience.

1259
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:46.280
I think I was already feeling a little morose, so.

1260
01:05:47.880 --> 01:05:48.239
It was.

1261
01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.920
It was stark, sad and dark. Yeah, and you had

1262
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:51.800
read the book right.

1263
01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:55.000
Read the book, and I liked the book. I you know,

1264
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:56.960
I preferred the book to the movie. I thought the

1265
01:05:57.039 --> 01:05:59.920
book was a little more poetic. It was beautifully written,

1266
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:04.400
and I think it told the story of Hamnett better.

1267
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:04.559
Did it.

1268
01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:05.159
Yeah.

1269
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:08.079
I went into the movie not really knowing anything about it,

1270
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:10.159
and so I have to admit I was a little

1271
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:13.840
bit confused. I didn't know. I honestly, I don't want

1272
01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:16.599
to spoil anything for people that I didn't know that

1273
01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:19.639
it was Hamlet. Well, I didn't know that the father

1274
01:06:19.880 --> 01:06:25.119
was William Shakespeare until like more than halfway through the movie.

1275
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:26.199
I kind of started.

1276
01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:28.119
Putting writing plays in the theater.

1277
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:30.519
I didn't even realize he was writing plays. I'm just

1278
01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:32.280
so slow. Sometimes I thought, oh, he.

1279
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:34.159
Was up at night scrawling things.

1280
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:36.880
Well I knew that, okay, But then I thought when

1281
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:40.079
he went to London, he was there like making gloves

1282
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:42.599
or something. And I didn't hear them ever mention him

1283
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:46.119
writing plays until close to it. So I'm a little

1284
01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.360
bit slow. But I thought it was a beautiful movie.

1285
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:51.840
It was very cinematic, very the cinematography.

1286
01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:54.679
Was It's a little overwrought, and yeah, I would like

1287
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:57.400
to see it like a really funny movie I miss.

1288
01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:59.320
I feel like we're not making as many comedies as

1289
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:01.000
we used to, maybe just not on my radar.

1290
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:02.719
I don't know what kind of like what kind of

1291
01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:05.280
comedy are you looking for? Like Bridesmaids? I know, yeah,

1292
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:06.239
that's one of my evors.

1293
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.599
Something Bridesmaids is one of my favor or even like

1294
01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:11.679
more boy funny movies like I don't.

1295
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:14.840
Know, Old School, Hangover.

1296
01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:17.760
Sure or something about Mary. I don't know. I just

1297
01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:21.119
feel like there hasn't been really. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe.

1298
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:22.960
We just missed them. I don't I don't know, but yeah,

1299
01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:25.400
I haven't really, we haven't seen anything like that in

1300
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:26.119
quite a while.

1301
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:29.440
Yeah, when life feels heavy, you just want to laugh sometimes.

1302
01:07:29.679 --> 01:07:31.639
But I have a bone to pick with you, with me,

1303
01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:32.800
how could that be?

1304
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:33.320
Well?

1305
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:35.960
After because we knew it was gonna snow, and because

1306
01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:41.119
it's so cold, the salt isn't like, the roads haven't

1307
01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:44.480
been great. Yeah for a couple of weeks. But we

1308
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:46.639
went to the grocery store because you know, we knew

1309
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:48.719
we weren't going to go out, and you like the

1310
01:07:48.840 --> 01:07:52.400
number one rule of snow days is calories don't count.

1311
01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:55.880
And you didn't let me buy any good snacks, like

1312
01:07:55.960 --> 01:07:58.760
we bought zero good snacks. We bought you guys, we

1313
01:07:58.840 --> 01:08:01.800
bought lettuce and bend Anna's and what I mean what else?

1314
01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:03.159
You were like, we don't need that.

1315
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:05.559
I would like to remind you, are you that you

1316
01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:06.400
are an adult?

1317
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:08.719
And you forbid it right there?

1318
01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:09.719
I did.

1319
01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.400
I have witnesses at the Meyer. He was like, girl,

1320
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:17.359
put that down, you don't need that. Absolutely well, thank

1321
01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:21.239
God for Alicia and her lovely snacks from BUCkies or

1322
01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:22.800
this girl I know you.

1323
01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:23.840
Would be going hungry.

1324
01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:26.279
No, it just cracked me up because you you totally

1325
01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.760
did the we have food at home saying, which you

1326
01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:30.479
know our our.

1327
01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:30.960
Kids would say.

1328
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:32.560
If there's one thing I do right as a mod,

1329
01:08:32.600 --> 01:08:35.840
it's like, I'm pretty good at snacks. Oh yes, if

1330
01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:38.520
if there's a snow day, you need cookies, like homemade

1331
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:41.479
cookies usually, Yeah, I am going to make cookies later

1332
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:42.920
for someone's specials birthday.

1333
01:08:43.159 --> 01:08:44.279
Yeah, we will.

1334
01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:46.439
Have some cookies. So I'm just using you. You didn't

1335
01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:49.119
forbid it, but you were not very much fun. And

1336
01:08:49.159 --> 01:08:52.000
then on the way home we were going to stop

1337
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.600
and get something and then you're like, oh, we don't

1338
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:57.640
need so and he wasn't hungry. Yeah, I know if

1339
01:08:57.640 --> 01:08:59.520
you're not hunger, I guess I know you did offer

1340
01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:03.760
to stop one who wants to eat bad, unhealthy fast

1341
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:08.359
food by themselves. Yeah, definitely that's true group experience. Eat

1342
01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:11.239
everyone in the car to want McDonald's, not just one person.

1343
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:12.800
I'm so sorry I did not, but.

1344
01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:15.439
I came home and had an apple and I'm oh, well, yeah,

1345
01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:16.399
really thrilled that.

1346
01:09:16.600 --> 01:09:17.760
What more would you have wanted?

1347
01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:18.760
Right exactly?

1348
01:09:19.079 --> 01:09:21.920
Yeah, thank you all so much for listening. If you

1349
01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:23.960
would like to listen to part three right now. You

1350
01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:27.319
can join us on Patreon dot com slash Love Marykill.

1351
01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:29.800
We have one tier and for that you get early

1352
01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.760
ad free access, and when we do multipart episodes, you

1353
01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:35.399
get to hear them all at once rather all.

1354
01:09:35.159 --> 01:09:39.159
For one tier for five dollars a month. What a bargain.

1355
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:41.800
We are so grateful for everyone's support.

1356
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:46.079
Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social media,

1357
01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:49.920
or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com.

1358
01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:50.840
We love to hear from you.

1359
01:09:51.079 --> 01:09:51.439
Now.

1360
01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:54.239
You can find us on YouTube and Reddit really quick

1361
01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:54.800
before we go.

1362
01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:57.000
If uh, we can't find us on Reddit, you can

1363
01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:57.840
find us on tac.

1364
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:00.560
I am just saying, oh you can't. I'm fine because

1365
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:02.760
I read it, but hard because you might find some

1366
01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:04.640
negative things alto. I don't really know. I haven't checked

1367
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.720
it a long time. But sometimes we're getting a lot

1368
01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:10.319
more messages and sometimes I have a hard time keeping

1369
01:10:10.399 --> 01:10:13.680
up with them. So don't feel bad if you have

1370
01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:16.279
to resend an email or resend a comment, because my

1371
01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:18.319
intent is to respond to all of them, but sometimes

1372
01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:20.920
they get a little lost. So until next time, don't

1373
01:10:21.000 --> 01:11:04.479
kill your wife, and don't kill your husband,