Feb. 2, 2026

The Menendez Family - Part 1 of 3

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In August 1989, José, 45, and Kitty Menendez, 47, were shot to death in their Beverly Hills home. Their sons, Lyle, 18, and Erik, 21, would later confess to the killings—setting off one of the most polarizing murder trials in American history. What initially looked like a mob-style hit unraveled into a story of family control, extreme dysfunction, and disturbing allegations of long-term sexual abuse. The trials exposed the private life of a wealthy, image-driven family and forced the public to confront uncomfortable questions about trauma, masculinity, and male child sexual abuse.

Today's snack: Buc-ee's Ghost Pepper Salsa and Pecan Trio (thanks Alicia!)

Listen to all three parts today on Patreon: https://patreon.com/LoveMarryKill

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned and over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you?

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I am doing good? How are you?

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I'm good. It's freezing here, but the sun is out,

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so that's good.

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I feel like we've been talking about the weather a

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lot lately, but it's such a big I mean, it's

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just been one of the worst winners I can ever remember.

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I don't know if I would say worse. Hold, it's

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been cold, and we've had snow, but we haven't had

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tons of snow. There's been snow on the ground consistently.

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Yeah, it's more about the cold.

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But it's so cold. Unless you have experienced it, it's

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hard to imagine what the cold does to the snow

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from like a scientific basis. It's kind of interesting because

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it turns into styrofoam essentially, and when you crunch over

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it with your wheels just makes the weirdest sound.

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Yeah, it gets super hard and you can't do anything

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about it. After a certain point. It just it's there. Well.

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Speaking of weather, we're recording on Saturday, January twenty fourth,

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earlier than this is being released, and the storm, the

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big storm is supposed to hit tonight, I think the

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worst of it. So we're hoping that everyone's okay, and.

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It's going to affect a lot of people, right.

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Yeah, hundreds of millions of people. We're just supposed to

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get like five inches of snow and no ice, but

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I think the impact is the ice. So we're thinking

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of you, and we're hoping that it's not going to

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be as bad as people are predicting.

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Yeah.

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But another weather related event is today Groundhog Day. We

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are releasing this episode on February second, which is a

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special day for us because three beloved family members have

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birthdays today.

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So many birthdays on February second.

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Our nephew, your sister Julia, and our sun. Yeah, so

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happy birthday to all of you.

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Happy birthday everyone.

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Groundhog Day, as it celebrated in the United States and Canada,

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is largely a North American tradition brought here by German

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settlers in the Pennsylvania Dutch region. The custom traces back

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to candle miss Day, when people once watched the weather

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and even hibernating animals to guess whether winter was tightening

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its grip or beginning to loosen. Groundhog Day is forty

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days after the winter's solstice and forty days before the

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spring equinox. In Germany, folklore held that a badger's shadow

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could foretell the length of winter, and parts of Eastern Europe,

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similar legends centered on a bear emerging from its den.

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When German immigrants carried the tradition to Pennsylvania, they adapted

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to a common local animal, the groundhog, also known as

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a I don't which. Since eighteen eighty seven, the most

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famous of them all, Punk Satawny Phil has made his

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annual appearance at Gobbler's Knob, and according to the Punk

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Satani Groundhog Club, there has only ever been one Phil

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kept alife for more than a century by a secret

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elixir of life. In reality, groundhogs usually live about ten years. Wow,

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that's pretty In Punk Satani's tradition, Phil will live forever.

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Wow. That's good to hear. Yeah, we had a tradition

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in my family growing up that my poor sister was

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her birthday. But I would always, of course say Happy

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groundhogs Day, like I was all excited for Groundhog's Day.

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I've said this before. You're such a nice person, but

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you're a little brother. You're just a little brother, and

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you're a little snirky to your older sister, who is

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very kind.

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I just like to tease.

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Yes, Well, speaking of groundhogs, I brought you a snack. Oh,

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a little groundhog jerky. Okay, no, I'm just kidding. I

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brought you a snack today from a listener who sent

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us the loveliest package. Alisha from Amarillo, Texas sent us

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a big box full of things from BUCkies. It was

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like if we went to BUCkies, the things that we

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would buy. She sent socks and a magnet and a cup,

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and a snow globe and a dish, towels and all

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sorts of stuff. It's so so sweet. It's such a

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lovely package to get. She probably thought we forgot about

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it because it was at.

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The post office for a couple of weeks.

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You forgot because we have had some bad weather and

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sometimes we don't open the box until rape before we

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are going to record. So I have some ghost pepper.

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I wasn't gonna tell you it's ghost pepper, but I'll

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tell you. It's ghost pepper salsa and some tortilla chips,

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and this one looks really yummy. It's a pecan trio,

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milk chocolate, white fudge, and honey glazed pecans.

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It does look good.

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Yeah, I'm gonna try.

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I sure do.

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What did you think of the Bucky snacks?

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I will have to let you know after my mouth

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cools off a little bit. That ghost pepper salsa is

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super hot but really good.

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Yeah, it is really good.

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Yeah. I love the pecan trio too. That was really good.

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I like spicy things, but that might have been a

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little too spicy for me, but in small amounts. Really yeah, yummy,

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I agree.

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But yeah, this also is really good. There's a couple

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of more Bucky snacks that Alicia sent us that we

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will try in the next episode.

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Thanks so much, Alicia, No, thank you.

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That was such a lovely surprise. Today, I'm going to

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tell you a story that I have been working on

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for two years, not really working on, but I started

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it two years ago and I knew that it was

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going to take me a while, and I never really

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had enough time to really dig into it deeply. So

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I did this over Christmas.

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You have been working on this for a long time.

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Yeah, and you were probably wondering, is she ever going

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to finish a case again? He has taken it. Before

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we dive in, I need to give a content warning.

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This episode contains discussion of murder, family violence, and allegations

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of sexual abuse involving miners. Listener discretion is advised. My

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main source for this case was Robert Rand's book The

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Menendez Murders, The Shocking, Untold Story of the Menendez Family

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and the killings that stunned the Nation. Any quotes, unless

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otherwise noted, come from his book. Rand as a journalist

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who has worked on the case tirelessly for decades and

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updated his book and research through the years. He was

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one of the first journalists to interview the brothers after

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the murders and has maintained a relationship with them throughout

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the years.

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I'm really looking forward to hearing this because despite how

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famous this case is, I really know next to nothing

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about it.

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And you know how, this case kind of tortured me

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a little bit because I thought one thing, and by

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the end of my research, my feelings changed about the case.

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Interesting On Sunday, August twentieth, nineteen eighty nine, Jose and

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Kitty Menendez had settled down to watch the James Bond

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movie The Spy Who Loved Me on their big screen

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TV while lunching on strawberries and cream. They lived in

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an impressive four million dollar nine thousand square foot eight

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bedroom mansion at seven twenty two North elm Drive. Prince

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and Elton John had previously lived there.

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Oh wow.

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It was a beautiful home with a pool and a

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tennis court, often used by their sons, lia Bill and Eric,

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both ranked amateur tennis players who hoped to play professionally someday.

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The Menendezes had recently relocated to Beverly Hills from Calabasas.

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Jose was a successful executive at Live Entertainment, a home

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video distributor and subsidiary of Carlcoe Pictures, the studio behind

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films like Rambo and The Terminator. He also served on

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Carlcoe's board of directors. Jose and Kitty's two sons, Lyle

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and Eric, were out for the evening, first to see

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Batman and then to meet up later with friends at

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the Taste of La Food festival. Eric eighteen, had just

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graduated from high school in June and planned to attend

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UCLA in the fall. Lyle twenty one attended Princeton University

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in New Jersey, where the family had lived for over

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a decade before moving to Calabasas. Just after ten pm,

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a neighborhood popping noises and brushed them off as firecrackers,

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but they weren't. Two armed men entered the Menendez home

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through the unlocked front door eaves, carrying a twelve gage

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Mossburg shotgun, storming through the house into the TV room

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at the back of the house. The security system was

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left unarmed because the boys frequently set it off, waking

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up their parents in the middle of the night. The

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intruders stood behind the couch and fired several times at

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helpless Jose and Kitty. They'd both fallen asleep in front

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of the TV, Kitty's head resting on Jose's lap. Jose

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was shot five times. The first shot to Jose was

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almost certainly fatal. The gun was pressed to the back

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of his head, leaving a catastrophic wound. He was also

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struck in the thigh, chest, arm, and elbow. Jose remained

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sitting upright on the couch, slumped over to one side.

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One shot missed and shattered the French doors behind them.

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When the shots woke Kitty, she tried to escape, taking

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a step or two, but fell between the couch and

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the coffee table as the spray of bullets struck her.

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She was found lying on the floor by her husband's feet.

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She had suffered at least ten shots. Every bone in

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her face was broken, as were all of her teeth.

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Her left leg was broken and bent at an odd

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forty five degree angle. A bullet to her left breast

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perforated one of her lungs. Despite the braje of gunfire,

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Kitty was still breathing. Her killer then reloaded the weapon

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and fired the final fatal shot. We know the gun

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was reloaded because some of Kitty's wounds contained bird shot

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while others did not, and none of Jose's wounds contained

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bird shot at all. As the shooters fled the mansion,

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what remained was a gruesome scene, the room and its

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furnishings ruined with blood spatter and biological matter from the attack. Ooh,

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what a horrifying horrified was a horrific scene. Meanwhile, Lyel

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and Eric's friends Perry and Todd, waited for them at

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the Taste of La until almost ten thirty, but they

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never showed up, so they went home. Lyele called them

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around ten forty five and apologized. He said he and

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Eric had gotten lost, but asked if they could still

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hang out. Perry said he'd meet them at the cheesecake

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factory in Beverly Hills, but Lyle asked if they could

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meet at his house instead so Eric could pick up

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his fake ID, but Harry was firm they would meet

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at the cheesecake factory. The brothers got back to their

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house around eleven thirty pm. The front wrought iron gate

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was open, which was unusual. The front door was unlocked too.

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When Lyle and Eric stepped through the front door, they

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could sense something was off. The acrid odor of gunpowder

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mixed with the metallic smell of blood lingered in the air.

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They were drawn to the den, where they could hear

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a movie playing. Expecting to find their parents snuggled on

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the couch together, they were shocked to see the bloody

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massacre that had unfolded inside their home. Smoke lingering in

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the room, with Kitty and Jose clearly deceased, The boys

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both began screaming and crying, Confused about what to do, next,

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Lyle ran upstairs and gathered himself long enough to call

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nine one one from the phone in his parents' bedroom.

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It was eleven forty seven pm. While Lyle remained on

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the line with nine one one for two and a

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half minutes down the hall, Eric used the phone in

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his bedroom to call their tennis coach, Mark Heffernan, someone

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both brothers were close to. When Heffernan heard the panic

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in Eric's voice, he immediately got into his car and

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drove to the house. When police arrived minutes later, the

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boys ran out of the house crying and screaming. Officers

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immediately patted them down, then ordered them to the ground

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as they moved in to clear the house, uncertain whether

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the shooter still might be inside. Once the house was clear,

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detectives many pulled from their beds in the middle of

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the night, began questioning the hysterical brothers. Eric repeatedly slammed

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his head against a tree, shouting I'm going to kill them,

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over and over as Lyle tried to restrain him. Meanwhile,

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Lyle answered officer's questions about his parents and what he

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and Eric had been doing that day. He told them

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his father's business associates were difficult people, and that Jose

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was always under a lot of stress. He also told

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officers that his mother struggled with emotional problems and had

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previously attempted to take her own life. Shocked neighbors stood

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on their pristinely manicured lawns and pajamas, staring in disbelief.

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Beverly Hills was not a place where murders were supposed

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to happen. On average, the city only saw about two

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per year. Jose and Kitty Menendez filled that grim quota

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from the start. Policeman mo Angel was suspicious of the

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boy's behavior. While they were understandably upset, they seemed overly emotional,

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even performative. At times when officers weren't speaking with them,

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they seemed fine. Because the brothers were visibly overwrought, officers

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chose not to perform standard gunshot residue tests on Lyall

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or Eric, a decision they would later call a huge mistake.

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Does seem like a huge mistake just because someone's overly emotional.

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You say, ah, we won't do residue tests on you.

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Then one important thing to remember in this case is

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there in Beverly Hill. So they are automatically going to

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treat everyone a little differently. It's not right, but they

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get treated with more respect because, well, why do you

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think because they have more money and they're worried about

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a lawsuit. Gunshot residue tests were performed on Kitty and

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Jose and both were negative, ruling out a possible suicide situation.

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Another critical mistake was the decision not to search Lyle

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or Eric's cars. Had police done so, they would have

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found the ammunition and receipt for the guns. When Lyle

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and Eric didn't show up at the cheesecake factory, Perry

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drove to their house. He was stunned by the sea

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of flashing lights from the first responders surrounding the Menendez mansion.

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Police noted that he seemed out of place. Perry soon

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became their first suspect, but not for long. After several

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hours of questioning, Mark Heffernan took Lyle and Eric to

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his house to spend the night. They wouldn't inform their

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relatives until the next morning. It had the night to

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think about how they'd break the tragic news, but their

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entire world had already shifted, and the story that the

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brothers told would become one of the most scrutinized and

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shrewd crime Do you remember this case and do you

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have visuals in your head of.

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I can picture Lyle and Eric like I've seen definitely

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seen a lot of pictures of them. I know the

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basic facts that they obviously were the ones to kill

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their parents. I didn't know how. I didn't like it

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was really in cold blood. I mean, they just came

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in and fired so many bullets into their parents. So,

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but that's really about all I remember about the case.

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I am embarrassed to admit this, but I actually had

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the brothers ron. I thought Lyle was Eric and Eric

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was Lyle. Okay, which people are going to be shocked

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that I actually didn't even know who was who.

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Okay, well, who was the oldest, because I, yeah, I

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don't know.

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Lyle is the oldest. He's the one with the very

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dark head of hair and Eric. I don't know why.

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To me, Eric just looks older, but he has like

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a curlier hair and like very strong facial features, okay.

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Jose Enrique Menandez was born on May sixth, nineteen forty four,

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in Havana, Cuba. His parents, Pepin and Maria had emigrated

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from Spain and were both accomplished athletes. Pepin a professional

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soccer player, Maria a swimmer who won five gold medals

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at the nineteen thirty five Olympic Games, the first woman

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ever inducted into the Cube Hall of Fame.

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How amazing is that?

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That is really amazing. Jose was their youngest child. He

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grew up alongside two older sisters, Terry and Marta. Pepin

295
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worked as an accountant, giving the family a comfortable life.

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Jose was doted on by his mother, Maria, who spoiled

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him relentlessly. In her eyes, he could do no wrong.

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Decades later, Marta revealed a shocking secret. She alleged that

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her mother may have sexually abused Jose, recalling an incident

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she described as sexually inappropriate contact. She witnessed Maria stroking

301
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Jose's exposed genitals, an image she could never get out

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of her head. Do you know how old Jose was

303
00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:40.279
at this time?

304
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He was little, like three or four?

305
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Disturb Jose, like his parents, was a gifted athlete, a

306
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swimmer who had his eye on competing in the Olympics,

307
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But in nineteen sixty, when he was sixteen, he emigrated

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from Cuba to the United States amid the upheaval that

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followed Fidel Castro's rise to power. As the new government

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began nationalizing property and dismantling the country's middle and upper classes,

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Pepin and Maria stayed back to fight for their properties.

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Jose arrived in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, speaking no English and with

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very little money, sleeping in the attic of a distant cousin.

314
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He was homesick and depressed. Hungry for news from his

315
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family in Cuba, Jose spent hours listening to Cuban radio

316
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stations in his tiny bedroom. For the rest of his life,

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he would never forget what Castro and his regime had

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done to his family and to the country he loved.

319
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Driven by a fierce resolve to succeed and help those

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00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.039
he'd left behind, Jose quickly learned English and earned an

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athletic swimming scholarship to Southern Illinois University, where he met

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00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.440
Kitty Anderson. That is really impressive for somebody to come

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to a new country, not speaking the language, no money

324
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in your pocket, and to be able to really work

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hard to make something of yourself.

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Absolutely, he overcame the ads for sure. Who was such

327
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a hard worker, but not the nicest guy.

328
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Mary Louise Anderson, known exclusively as Kitty since she was

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a teenager, was born October fourteenth, nineteen forty one, to

330
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Andy and Lula May Anderson in Oaklawn, Illinois. The youngest

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of four. She had a sister named Joan and two brothers,

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Brian and Milton. Charles owned a heating and cooling business,

333
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while May raised the children. From the outside, they appeared

334
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to be a picture perfect family, but behind closed doors,

335
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Charles physically abused his wife and children. When Kitty was

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about five, her parents divorced after Charles had an affair.

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He married the woman, but May never found love again.

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She struggled with depression and her self image after her

339
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marriage ended. After witnessing her parents' tumultuous relationship and enduring

340
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abuse at a young age, Kitty struggled to trust others

341
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and form deep, meaningful relationships. However, pretty and athletic, she

342
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was popular with her peers. Her friend group called themselves

343
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the Party Dolls. In nineteen fifty eight, she began college

344
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at Southern Illinois US University, majoring in communications. Kitty focused

345
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on broadcasting, but she had hopes of someday acting too.

346
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She did camera work at the university television station, as

347
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well as play by play sports announcing. In nineteen sixty two,

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she won the Miss Oaklawn beauty pageant. Kitty and Jose

349
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.240
met during her senior and his freshman year in a

350
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debate class. They fell in love quickly and were inseparable,

351
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but because of their different cultural backgrounds, some frowned on

352
00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:32.680
their relationship, but Kitty and Jose were undeterred, we'll be

353
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:33.880
back after a break.

354
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Despite the protests of their parents, they eloped in nineteen

355
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sixty three after Kitty graduated. Then they moved to New York,

356
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where Jose transferred to Queen's College while Kitty taught high

357
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school in the Bronx. Jose attended night classes while working

358
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.200
as a dishwasher and selling Encyclopedia's Door to door is

359
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.640
a career that is allowed.

360
00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:03.119
It's no longer around, is it.

361
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In nineteen sixty seven, Jose graduated with degrees in accounting

362
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.400
and economics. He quickly found work as an accountant for

363
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:14.519
Cooper's and librand, making twenty five thousand dollars a year.

364
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.400
We're about two hundred and forty thousand dollars today.

365
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.960
Well, that's pretty good the salary for just starting out.

366
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On January tenth, nineteen sixty eight, Kitty and Jose welcomed

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00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:28.400
their first child, Joseph Flyle Menendez. After Lyle was born,

368
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Kitty quit her teaching job. Soon after, Jose was sent

369
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:36.440
to Chicago to help a struggling company, Lion Container. Jose

370
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.960
proposed a new restructuring plan that he believed would save them.

371
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.400
Impressed with his work, ethic and solid plan, they offered

372
00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.160
him a position as comptroller for seventy five thousand dollars

373
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.480
a year, near least seven hundred thousand dollars today, moly.

374
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He accepted the job, and he and Kitty moved to

375
00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:00.400
hinsda Dale, Illinois. Just two years later, after quadrupling Lion

376
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:05.359
Container's prophet margin, Jose, only twenty six, was named president

377
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.319
of the company. His career trajectory is super impressive.

378
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:10.359
Yeah, that's amazing.

379
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:15.400
November twenty seventh, nineteen seventy Eric Galen Menendez was born,

380
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almost three years after his brother. In nineteen seventy one,

381
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.079
the family moved again to New Jersey, where Jose began

382
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.559
working at Hertz in their leasing division before becoming CFO

383
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:30.960
in nineteen seventy three. With cousins living nearby, the family

384
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.640
spent a lot of time together, and the children formed

385
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:38.200
close bonds and fond memories. Jose's sister Marta recalled quote,

386
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.839
as young boys, Eric and Lyle were two earthquakes. Our

387
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.279
kids were very disciplined, but when Jose's kids arrived, the

388
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.200
house trembled and things broke. When the boys were very young,

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00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.039
Jose was often emotionally distant and largely uninvolved in their

390
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.519
day to day lives. He took little interest in typical

391
00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:01.839
parenting and bristled when anyone criticized Lyle or Eric's behavior.

392
00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:07.119
On one occasion, Martha's husband Peter, witnessed a disturbing interaction

393
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.559
between Lyle and Jose. Five year old Lyle was running

394
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.720
through the house when Jose grabbed him and whispered something

395
00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.799
into his ear, frightening the little boy so badly that

396
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.200
he peed his pants. Jose then punched him squarely in

397
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.880
the chest, knocking the wind out of him, and carried

398
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.119
him into a bedroom, closing the door behind him. Peter

399
00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:29.000
was aghast and told Jose that was no way to

400
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.839
treat a young child. He was then ordered to leave

401
00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:36.119
the house. People noticed that Kitty didn't enjoy being a mother.

402
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.559
She was often aloof and distant with her children, like

403
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.599
their father. She could also be rough at times, shaking

404
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.799
them violently, oprating them verbally, calling them idiot or stupid.

405
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:49.960
When the boys were still very young, Kitty developed a

406
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.720
drinking problem. As the boys grew older, they became increasingly

407
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.759
rude and dismissive towards her, mirroring the way Jose treated her.

408
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.119
Jose did nothing to curb the behavior. In fact, he

409
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:05.000
appeared to encourage it, shaping his sons to see dominance's

410
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:09.200
strength to be alpha males, especially Lyle. At the end

411
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.119
of second grade, Lyle brought home the classroom bunny to

412
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.640
care for over the summer. Kitty and Jose wanted nothing

413
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.240
to do with it and told him to get rid

414
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.160
of it. A few days later, when the rabbit went missing,

415
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:24.240
Lyle found it in the trash, beaten to death. Oh Sorrysha,

416
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:25.440
I warned you about that.

417
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:26.799
So sad cool.

418
00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:31.200
By nineteen seventy nine, Jose, thirty five, became global general

419
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.519
manager of Hurtz. He was soaring in his career, but

420
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:39.200
his reputation among his colleagues soured He was demanding, short tempered,

421
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.119
and verbally abusive towards his subordinates, often berating them in

422
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.519
front of their peers, and he was infamous for dressing

423
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.480
down weight staff and restaurants. I think one of the

424
00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:51.839
worst things you can do as a manager is to

425
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.839
arate your employees in front of each other.

426
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.920
Yeah. Absolutely, it seems to happen quite a bit for

427
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.200
like especially I guess back then that was more common.

428
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:02.640
But yeah, it's really not okay.

429
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.839
It is important to remember that we are in the

430
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.559
nineteen seventies here, although at least one person later came

431
00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:12.559
to Jose's defense, Marzi Eisenberg. She had been with Jose

432
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.640
since nineteen seventy six, working as his assistant, even moving

433
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:19.880
to California from New Jersey with him. She described him

434
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.799
as honest and fair, but a tough businessman. Herts was

435
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.000
owned by RCA and in nineteen eight, which is so weird,

436
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.960
Hurts an rc of odd combination. But in nineteen eighty

437
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.319
Jose moved over to RCA's struggling record division to inflate

438
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:38.960
sales figures. He burdened record stores with large shipments they

439
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:42.920
hadn't ordered, but he was able to strengthen RCA's catalog

440
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:47.839
by signing Latin American artists like Menudo and Jose Feliciano,

441
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.720
but also major stars like Duran, Duran, Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers,

442
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.039
and The Arrhythmics. In nineteen eighty five, Jose was made

443
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:00.640
Vice president and COO of RCA Global, with the salary

444
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.000
of five hundred thousand dollars a year.

445
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.000
Jose is doing well for himself.

446
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:07.759
I'm going to take a little bit of a detour here.

447
00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.920
Before in Sync or the Backstreet Boys was Manudo, a

448
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.680
Puerto Rican boy band formed in nineteen seventy seven by

449
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:20.480
producer at Guardo Diaz. Manudo was built around a novel concept.

450
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:24.200
The group would constantly renew itself, members ahed out whence

451
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:28.440
they were about sixteen, keeping Manudo perpetually fresh and young

452
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:32.480
and marketable. That rotating lineup fueled the group's success rather

453
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.960
than hindering it. By the late nineteen seventies and especially

454
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.079
throughout the nineteen eighties, Nudo had become a global phenomenon,

455
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.319
leasing Spanish and English language albums, starring in television specials,

456
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.160
and inspiring intense fan de ocean across Latin America. The

457
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.240
United States and beyond. Their polished blend of pop and

458
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.599
disco was perfectly tailored to teenage audiences. Over the years,

459
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.559
Manudo launched the careers of several futures stars, most notably

460
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.640
Ricky Martin, who joined the group in nineteen eighty four.

461
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.559
By the time Nudo officially disbanded in the early two thousands,

462
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.279
they had sold millions of records and cemented its legacy

463
00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:15.000
as one of the most influential Latin pop acts of

464
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.880
the twentieth century, effectively laying the groundwork for the modern

465
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:23.119
boy band and making at Guardo Diaz very wealthy.

466
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.640
Why did they disband? They kept bringing in new people,

467
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.039
and you know, when you age out at sixteen, they

468
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:30.200
could have gone on forever. They could still be around.

469
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.400
You know, I don't know why they officially disbanded. I

470
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.960
think waned, but you'll see later that there may be

471
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.599
other reasons why the group Disbandedjse Menendez played an integral

472
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.119
role in Menudo's expansion into the English speaking market. He

473
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.640
pushed the members to learn English and helped guide their

474
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:54.039
crossover into mainland US, personally overseeing their English language albums

475
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:58.279
and promotional strategies that broadened their appeal. Under his influence,

476
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:01.920
Manudo was marketed not a Latin pop but as a

477
00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.680
global band. Jose took a particular interest in the group

478
00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:08.440
and even traveled with them on tour through Europe and

479
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:13.680
South America. Several people later recalled that Jose seemed unusually

480
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:17.960
invested in Minudo, far beyond what his professional role required

481
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.839
as president of RCA Records, even helped pick out new

482
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.400
members of the group. Around this time, Kitty suspected Jose

483
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.519
was having an affair. He had recently confided to his

484
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.799
brother in law that he no longer loved his wife,

485
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.160
but remained in the marriage because Kitty had agreed to

486
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.079
raise their sons according to his roles, asking few questions

487
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.960
and rarely challenging him. For Kitty, leaving the marriage was unthinkable.

488
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.279
As a child, she had watched her parents' divorce devastate

489
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.720
her mother, a lass that reshaped her own sense of security.

490
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.599
The fear of ending up alone like her mother stayed

491
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.720
with her, so she clung to her marriage, unwilling to

492
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.720
risk losing her status or the financial stability it provided.

493
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.039
In a letter to her husband, she wrote, throughout my life,

494
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.480
I lived with a tormented mother who buried her soul

495
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:05.920
to me, and I could always feel her hurt, but

496
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:08.720
was powerless to help her except by a show of strength.

497
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.359
I lived in a broken home and knew of no

498
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:14.480
other like mine. I swore this would never happen to me.

499
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.119
But staying in the marriage costed Kitty her independence, Her

500
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.640
sense of self fded, and the future she'd imagine, one

501
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:25.000
that included a career slipped further out of reach, and

502
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.799
she increasingly found ways of numbing herself.

503
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:30.200
We already know how this ends up. But just hearing

504
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:31.920
all of this, it's just you can hear all the

505
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:34.960
ingredients of just a really toxic.

506
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.799
And dysfunctional family For me.

507
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.839
Yeah, As Lyle and Eric grew up, Jose ruled their

508
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.400
lives with rigid control. Their success was his success, Failure

509
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.359
wasn't tolerated, and there was little time for just being

510
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.920
a kid. Whatever sport they were competing in, Jose coached

511
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.279
them from the sidelines, yelling at them to be faster, focused,

512
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:59.400
and more aggressive. His overbearing style was deeply unsettling to

513
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.119
the other young athletes and their parents, so when they

514
00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:04.279
were younger, it seems like he didn't take much interest

515
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.079
in them at all, But now he was taking an

516
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.440
interest in them, but he was really just pushing for

517
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.039
them to be successful because it reflected on him.

518
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.319
It sounds like exactly. Reputation was everything to Jose, and

519
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:20.319
so was the sports legacy that his family had. Can't

520
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.640
be understated, Like they were very successful, you know, going

521
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.279
all the way back to Spain, and so.

522
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.880
He felt a lot of pressure to carry that on

523
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:29.039
to the next generation.

524
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.839
Exactly. But we have you know, our kids did a

525
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:34.599
lot of sports growing up, and we always saw there

526
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:36.920
was always one guy at every game, right, who's yelling

527
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:38.519
at the sidelines.

528
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.039
Who just took it way too seriously. Right. Yeah. From

529
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:43.960
an early age, Jose saw Lyle as the heir to

530
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.440
his heavy mantle, the chosen one, the oldest son, the

531
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:51.599
strongest boy with more potential, most like himself. The first

532
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:55.319
sport Jose wanted Lyle to try was swimming. Lyle hated it.

533
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.279
He much preferred soccer. The practices with Jose were grueling

534
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.160
to make him tougher, Jose held his head underwater until

535
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.319
he had to fight for air, flailing his arms and legs,

536
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.480
gasping for breath. When Jose eventually relented, more than Eric,

537
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.960
Lyle was trained to choke back his emotions, indoor pain,

538
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.359
reject vulnerability, and deny his own feelings.

539
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:21.720
Can you imagine taking your kid's head and forcing him underwater.

540
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.759
No, that's really horrible to think about and just so abusive.

541
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:29.559
Coming from a long line of accomplished athletes, Jose steered

542
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.119
the boys towards sports where individual excellence could be measured

543
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.519
and the spotlight didn't have to be shared. After swimming

544
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.680
and playing soccer in their early youth, they landed on tennis.

545
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.640
Jose installed a tennis court at their home and spent

546
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.880
lavishly on private coaches and the best equipment. Lyle remembered

547
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:50.640
having more than fifty tennis coaches. Jose woke the boys

548
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.960
up early to hit balls before school. Lyle and Eric

549
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.319
were prone to stomach aches and had visible anxiety. Whenever

550
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:01.119
their father attended their matches, He argued referees over what

551
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.920
he deemed bad calls. When they lost, Jose forced them

552
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.759
to go over their matches point by point, be rating

553
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:11.160
them for every mistake. When they won, he lectured them

554
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:15.079
how they could have played better. Jose's attitude spilled over

555
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.079
onto the boys. Both developed reputations as bad sports on

556
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:20.000
the tennis circuit.

557
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:22.559
Parents put their kids in sports for a lot of reason,

558
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:25.480
but a big one is socialization, right, Like, you want

559
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.240
your kids to meet their friends and just have a

560
00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:29.119
good time.

561
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.680
And learn how to work together.

562
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:33.759
Yeah, after the game, you go out to ice cream

563
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.559
together where you whether you win or lose, and you

564
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.640
know it's about work, right. But Jose didn't want the

565
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:44.319
kids to have relationships with the other athletes. He didn't

566
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.119
let them go out to pizza or ice cream with

567
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:51.039
the other kids, and he prevented them from building friendships

568
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.400
with kids in their classrooms and on the sports fields.

569
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.920
He really wanted them to focus on their individual success,

570
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.240
which is pretty disturbing. Really yeah this, but they're still

571
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:01.960
really young.

572
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:05.400
When Jose wasn't traveling and was home for dinner, he

573
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:09.039
fired questions off at Lyle and Eric to a lesser extent,

574
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.160
drilling them about their day, what they ate, how their

575
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:16.480
sports practices went, current events, or history. It turned meals

576
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:20.599
into tents interrogations rather than quality family time, setting the

577
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:24.759
boys on edge. Sometimes, if Lyle didn't answer correctly, Jose

578
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.119
locked him out of the house and he would seek

579
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.440
refuge in the doghouse until the tension passed.

580
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.279
Lyle kept a blanket in the doghouse in case he

581
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:35.000
needed it. Isn't that so sad?

582
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.240
That it's really sad? Lyle and Eric attended the Princeton

583
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:42.119
Day School, a private school. Neither boy was a stellar student.

584
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:46.079
They lacked focus and were immature. When their teachers hinted

585
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:50.440
at possible learning disabilities, Jose balked at the idea. Teachers

586
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:54.759
noticed that homework was always thoughtfully completed, but tests, quizzes

587
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:58.400
and classroom work wasn't as polished. Even later, when Lyle

588
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:01.759
was in college, Kitty or Jose often wrote his papers.

589
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.079
We've had a couple other stories where this sort of

590
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:06.960
thing happened, where the parent was more concerned about their

591
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:11.960
kid appearing successful. And it's just such a recipe for disaster.

592
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.160
You're not doing your kid any favors at all.

593
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.960
I'm not sure why, but our kids rarely wanted our help.

594
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:20.400
No, they really didn't. There were also hints of inappropriate

595
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.720
sexual behaviors. Diane Vandermullen, a cousin who spent summers with

596
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:28.559
the family, later recalled two incidents when the brothers attacked her,

597
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.720
tried to undress her, and touched her inappropriately. In nineteen

598
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.920
eighty five, after General Electric bought RCA, Jose was forced

599
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.079
out of his job with a million dollar severance package.

600
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.200
He moved to Live Entertainment, the struggling home video distribution

601
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:50.240
branch of Carolco Pictures. Kitty, Jose, and Eric moved to Calabasas, California,

602
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.000
while Lyle stayed in New Jersey to attend Princeton University.

603
00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:57.880
Kitty became depressed after the move. She hadn't wanted to

604
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.839
leave their beloved home, her friends, or the life that

605
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:03.960
she had carefully curated in New Jersey. To make it

606
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.799
up to her, Jose bought an eight thousand square foot

607
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.839
mansion on fourteen wooded acres. Kitty began a heavy handed

608
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.920
remodeling project that she would never finish.

609
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.799
There was a funny anecdote that Jose really knew that

610
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:19.880
she was unhappy, and he was willing to do whatever

611
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.839
it took to make Kitty happy. And she wanted the

612
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.839
pool like an entire pool moved like a foot and

613
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:28.240
he was like, whatever you want, Kitty.

614
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.279
Oh Wow. Within five years, Jose planned to retire from

615
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.039
the entertainment business, moved to Miami, Florida, and entered the

616
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.680
world of politics by becoming a US Senator. His son

617
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.759
said he was motivated to help Cuba rid itself of

618
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:47.240
Fidel Castro. Lyle and Eric also both had political ambitions,

619
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.119
Lyle even believing he could be the President of the

620
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:51.400
United States someday.

621
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.079
So I know, this sounds crazy that Jose thought he

622
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.960
could go to Florida and become a US senator, But

623
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:58.799
I believe he would have made it happen.

624
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.519
Yeah, it doesn't sound that crazy to me. Yeah, it

625
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.480
was important to Jose that his sons received an Ivy

626
00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:08.480
League education. He had always felt his Cuban heritage caused

627
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.239
people to look down on him. Sometimes he even told

628
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.199
people to call him Joe. He felt that his sons

629
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.119
would receive more respect with a degree from an IVY

630
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.000
When Lyle wasn't initially admitted to Princeton, he enrolled at

631
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.519
Trenton State College before later gaining acceptance in the fall

632
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:25.760
of nineteen eighty.

633
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.400
Seven, and he was admitted in part because of a

634
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.519
large donation from his father, but also because he was

635
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.400
an excellent tennis player and they wanted him on the team.

636
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.199
In his year of limbo, he began dating a woman

637
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.599
five years older named Jamie Pissarsik. Jamie worked as a

638
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:43.960
waitress but was also trying to make it as a

639
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.440
professional tennis player. Kitty and Jose thought that she was

640
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.480
beneath Lyle when he proposed the summer before entering Princeton.

641
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:55.320
They protested angrily. Lyle was too young and they wanted

642
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:58.599
him to focus on his studies. But ironically, this is

643
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.400
how old Jose was when he proposed to Kitty, who

644
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.880
was also an older woman. To put distance between the couple,

645
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:09.239
Jose found sponsors to support Jamie's play in Europe. Lyle

646
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.400
was immature and thought rules didn't apply to him. He

647
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:14.880
gained a spot on the Princeton tennis team as the

648
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:18.679
last seed, but he was frequently late or missed practice.

649
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:22.239
He accrued so many speeding tickets in his red Alpha

650
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:26.480
Romeo Spider that his license was suspended. He instead hired

651
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.400
a limousine to get around, paid for by his father's

652
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:30.719
American Express card.

653
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:33.920
So some of the stories I tell like this paint

654
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:37.239
the picture that the boys were pretty spoiled even before

655
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:38.559
their parents' murders.

656
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.639
Yeah, it sounds like it. Then, Lyle was in serious

657
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:45.559
hot water at Princeton for plagiarism. He copied or closely

658
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:48.599
copied his lab partner's work, and it was flagged by

659
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.960
his psychology professor. Lyle didn't think this was a big

660
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.719
deal because it was just one minor assignment, but he

661
00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:57.599
was forced in front of the ethics committee, who handed

662
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.119
him a one year suspension from the universe. I remember

663
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:03.880
I used to think plagiarism wasn't such a big deal either,

664
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:05.760
and then I learned that, no, that's you get kicked

665
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:08.519
out of school for that, like pretty consistently.

666
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:11.320
I'm not defending Lyle, but it's going to sound like

667
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.239
I'm sure that I copied someone's homework and this seemed

668
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:18.559
like more like a homework assignment than a paper. But

669
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.719
the Princeton Code of Ethics was very firm and you

670
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.239
had to sign it when you entered the university, and

671
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.199
it was rigid, rigid.

672
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.199
Yeah, I think most universities take that pretty seriously, But

673
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:32.960
obviously it depends on the context and what assignment, what

674
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.039
type of assignment it actually is, and things like that.

675
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.719
Yes, we were pretty lucky to go to college in

676
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.360
a time when you couldn't instantly see if something was plagiarized.

677
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:43.360
That but I think a lot of college professors have

678
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:45.639
kind of given up with the use of chatjepeaching.

679
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.199
Yeah, it's a whole different set of problems. Jose flew

680
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.039
in for a meeting with the university president, but he

681
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:55.159
stood firm on Lyle's suspension. He would be able to

682
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.960
return after a year if he stayed out of trouble.

683
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.960
During the suspension, Jose made Lyle work at Live Entertainment

684
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:06.360
with him. His coworkers described Lyle as nasty, arrogant, and

685
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.480
self centered. He was often late or left early to

686
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.639
play tennis. He was fired after a month because Jose

687
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.880
didn't want it to appear that he was receiving special treatment.

688
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:19.199
When he returned to Princeton the next fall, he found

689
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.079
he was not given a single room as requested. He

690
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:25.440
promptly gathered his roommate's belongings and put them into the hall,

691
00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:30.360
refusing him re entry. Jose again intervened and fixed the situation.

692
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:35.280
Lyle was granted a single room. Sounds like Lyle exhibited

693
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:39.000
a lot of entitled behavior. He definitely did we'll be

694
00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:40.159
back after a break.

695
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:50.719
Growing up, the brothers were very close. Eric worshiped Lyle,

696
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:54.440
but they were very different. Lyle was confident and magnetic,

697
00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:58.599
while Eric was sensitive and more withdrawn. From an early age,

698
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.039
Eric sensed that Jose saw greater potential than his brother

699
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.159
and favored Lyle over him. It hurt him deeply, although

700
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:08.239
in some ways it allowed Eric to fly under the

701
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:13.199
radar and face fewer expectations. Eric was more subdued than Lyle,

702
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:17.079
but he also had an entitled rebellious nature. In the

703
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.639
summer of nineteen eighty eight, the brothers carried out a

704
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:23.480
series of burglaries with some of their wealthy friends in Calabasis,

705
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.920
partly for extra cash, but also just for kicks to

706
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.480
see if they could get away with it. They targeted

707
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:33.800
friends and acquaintances of their parents, stealing cash, jewelry, and

708
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:38.719
electronics worth and estimated one hundred thousand dollars, which made

709
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.440
the crime a felony grand theft burglary.

710
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.679
Yeah, that is not just small times, exactly playing around

711
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:46.320
for kicks type of stuff.

712
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:49.840
Jose once again came to his son's rescue, hiring a

713
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:54.159
skilled attorney. Jose personally paid restitution to his friends, writing

714
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:57.840
them checks to make the matter go away. Ultimately, Lyle

715
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:02.800
skirted charges because Eric still am took responsibility. Later Lyle

716
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.800
would also be connected to burglaries in New Jersey from

717
00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.480
his time at Princeton. A judge gave Eric probation and

718
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:13.320
ordered him to complete community service, a pretty light sentence,

719
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:16.880
but he was also required to attend counseling. What do

720
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:17.880
you think of that sentence?

721
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:19.960
I mean, it does seem pretty light. But he was

722
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.360
also a juvenile too, so I don't really have no

723
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.840
knowledge of sentencing guidelines for juveniles.

724
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.960
I think Jose may have pushed a lot of it

725
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:30.199
under the rug too, by just going to his friends

726
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:32.920
personally and saying, Hey, what check can I write you?

727
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:38.559
Eric began seeing psychotherapist doctor jerome o'zell at one hundred

728
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:41.679
and fifty dollars a session. I'm not really sure what

729
00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:45.079
therapists get paid an hour, but that today is four

730
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:46.440
hundred and thirty dollars.

731
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:48.039
An hour must be a great therapist.

732
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:52.960
Jerry forty two, was married with two daughters. He specialized

733
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:57.320
in sexual therapy and phobias. Jose required Oziel to sign

734
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.239
a waiver stating that he would later disclose any think

735
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:07.480
Eric told him in confidence to Jose, Right, well, Jerry

736
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.320
is a piece of work. So doctor Oziel would later

737
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.519
play in a very important part in this case, he'd

738
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:17.480
begun dating an attractive, crystal loving thirty six year old

739
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.760
divorcee named Judelan Smith. She had cold called him, trying

740
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:25.000
to convince him to produce a series of self help tapes.

741
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.599
O'zeal later said, over time, our business relationship evolved to

742
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:34.559
include a social relationship. She seduced me and insisted on

743
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:39.079
sexual interaction. The reality is she was forcing herself on

744
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:42.519
me and I didn't want her. So this is Jerry's

745
00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:47.119
account and definitely not one percent true. The affair turned

746
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:51.199
toxic when Judelan developed an unhealthy obsession with Jerry and

747
00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:53.599
wanted more than he was willing to give her. But

748
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:57.239
we'll get back to them later. After Eric was badly

749
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.719
beaten from mouthing off to local gang members, Jose hired

750
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:04.039
round the clock security for the family. Incidents like that

751
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.199
weren't isolated Lyele and Eric often found themselves in trouble,

752
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:11.320
and their parents were almost always there to smooth things over,

753
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:16.239
make the consequences disappear, or step in before accountability could

754
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:20.480
ever land. Reputation was everything to Jose. I know it

755
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.639
sounds like he was always there, swooping in to make

756
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:25.239
everything better, but it seemed like it was more to

757
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:26.440
save face.

758
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.760
Right, to save his reputation, and just again not doing

759
00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:31.559
your kids any favors for any of this.

760
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.239
Over the course of their marriage, Jose had multiple affairs.

761
00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:38.320
One was with a woman named Megan who worked with him.

762
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:41.960
She said, I was always attracted to Jose. There's something

763
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.239
very sexy about a man who's powerful, fool of himself,

764
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.519
and as charming as he was. He absolutely gave off

765
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:51.679
this sexual thing. Why do men look for anything outside

766
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:54.639
their marriage. It's what they're not getting at home. He

767
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:58.239
was exciting, and he wanted excitement. He didn't get any

768
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.599
excitement at home. So she was surprised to learn that

769
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.400
she was not Jose's only girlfriend. He also hired sex

770
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:07.519
workers through a Hollywood madam.

771
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.800
It's a little surprising to me that she would be

772
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:12.679
surprised that he had other women on the side.

773
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.760
True, but she probably felt like she was, you know,

774
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.159
fulfilling all of his Yes, she was special to him.

775
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.079
I'm a little curious about this Hollywood madam though. Do

776
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.199
you know who that probably means? It was?

777
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:29.199
Oh? I can't remember her name by.

778
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.440
So her list of clients has never been.

779
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:31.840
Revealed, Oh, I didn't know that.

780
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.199
I did do a little research there. That might be

781
00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:38.239
an interesting case for us to cover something. So Jose's

782
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:42.320
longest extramarital affair was with a woman named Charlotte. Kitty

783
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:45.000
was oblivious to the affairs, but Charlotte and Jose were

784
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:47.920
open with their relationship, even traveling as a couple and

785
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:52.599
hosting dinner parties together at her Manhattan townhouse. Eight years

786
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.800
into their affair, Kitty discovered the truth. The betrayal hit hard,

787
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:00.920
sending her into a deeper depression, increased her dependence on

788
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.760
alcohol and prescription drugs. Kitty told her psychiatrist that it

789
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.239
was too painful to be alive and that she had

790
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:10.840
no support system in Los Angeles. When Kitty was in

791
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:13.480
New Jersey, I think she had a much better life.

792
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.960
She had family, and she had friends, and she loved

793
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.559
her house and community. And when she moved.

794
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.719
She felt isolated. After that, yeah, I.

795
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:24.000
Have Kitty had set asign her own career ambitions to

796
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.159
support Jose through college and later to raise their sons.

797
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.440
He'd forbidden her to have a career, and the realization

798
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:34.760
left her feeling discarded, humiliated, and even suicidal. That a

799
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:38.280
letter to Jose, Kitty wrote, for twenty four years, I

800
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.159
lived in a dream. I tried so hard to keep

801
00:43:41.199 --> 00:43:44.119
my marriage complete, but didn't know how. I thought if

802
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.920
I concentrated on the house and her boys, their grades

803
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.719
and sports, that you would feel fulfilled. My fantasy about

804
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:53.760
you and I and our family was my own destruction.

805
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:57.559
I locked myself in a dream that began in my childhood.

806
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:00.320
I married a man just like my father. In discuss

807
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.079
the very man I tried to run away from. Jose's

808
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.800
infidelity gnawed at the corners of Kitty's mind. It consumed her.

809
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:12.039
She even hired a private detective to trail Charlotte. Kitty

810
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:15.320
left California intending to walk away from her marriage, but

811
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.119
instead she flew to New York and staked out Charlotte's apartment,

812
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.119
hoping to catch a glimpse of her. But she realized

813
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.400
that she loved her husband and didn't want her marriage

814
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:27.880
to end. Neither did Jose. He confessed all of his

815
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:32.039
indiscretions and convinced her to come back. However, Kitty was

816
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.599
not quite the same again. She grew more acerbic, less accommodating.

817
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.880
She understood that her marriage to Jose functioned more like

818
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:43.760
a business arrangement than a traditional partnership. But when Charlotte

819
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:47.440
ended her relationship with him, Jose turned his attention back

820
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:50.840
to his family, spending more time with Kitty and the boys,

821
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.239
and for that Kitty was grateful. But by that time,

822
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:58.440
Kitty's substance abuse issues couldn't be so easily quashed. She

823
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:01.199
was rushed to the emergency room for an overdose after

824
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.920
she mixed alcohol and xanax. Doctors wanted to admit her

825
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:07.440
to the psychiatric unit, but she signed herself out of

826
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.679
the hospital after her doctors agreed to increase the dosage

827
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:14.920
of her medications. Her doctors and psychiatrists believed she kept

828
00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:18.920
her emotions tightly bottled up. In therapy, she was reticent

829
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.280
and stoic, but at home she was easily irritated and

830
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:26.679
often furious with everyone around her. She seemed most angry

831
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.280
at her sons, especially Lyle, So you can tell that

832
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.960
Lyle and his father not necessarily closer, but Jose really

833
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:40.360
prefers Lyle right, and Kitty prefers Eric. Kitty became increasingly

834
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.920
fixated on Jose and on pleasing him. After his affairs,

835
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:47.079
she blamed her sons for coming between them. If they

836
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.280
came to her with an issue they had with her father,

837
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.599
she would always side with Jose. She once confided in

838
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:55.119
her sister in law that she wished Lyle and Eric

839
00:45:55.159 --> 00:45:59.280
had never been born. I know Kitty, three years older

840
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.760
than Jose, consumed with her appearance. When she was afraid

841
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:04.960
that she was losing him to other women, she lost

842
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.480
twenty pounds and got a facelift. Kitty wrote many letters

843
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:11.159
to Jose. They were overwrought with emotion and hinted at

844
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:14.079
taking her own life, and one she wrote, you are

845
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.239
a brilliant, aggressive, soft hearted man and I am truly

846
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.000
in love with you even as I write this. Please

847
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.320
find someone you can truly fall in love with and

848
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.599
start again. Build a new family. I know our boys

849
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:28.360
will always be most special to you. They are special

850
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:29.239
my gift to you.

851
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:33.000
As the summer of nineteen eighty nine wound down, Lyle

852
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:36.039
was headed back to Princeton and Eric for his freshman

853
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:39.559
year at UCLA. Jose bought a condo for Lyle to

854
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.039
live in near campus, and Eric was going to live

855
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:45.679
in the dorms. Kitty was struggling. Her friends and family

856
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.119
saw it. Her eyes were often glassy and vacant. She

857
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:51.840
would lose her train of thought mid sentence and was

858
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.639
unsteady on her feet, with the stress of both her

859
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:58.519
sons heading off to college weighing heavily on her. That summer,

860
00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:01.679
Eric had climbed in the ten rankings from forty fourth

861
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.719
to eighth in his age group. He wanted to devote

862
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.760
himself to tennis full time and dreamed of joining the

863
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:11.400
professional tour, but when he competed in the US Junior

864
00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:15.679
National Championships in Kalamazoo, Michigan, that August, he was eliminated

865
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.719
in the early rounds. The family had planned a trip

866
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:22.079
to Canada after the Junior Nationals, but when Eric lost,

867
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:25.360
everyone was in a sour mood and at each other's throats.

868
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:29.039
The trip was canceled and the bad mood followed them home.

869
00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.920
Eric had been under enormous pressure from his father to win.

870
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:37.039
The champion would advance to the US Open, a huge opportunity.

871
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.360
After his devastating loss, Jose was furious and withdrew his

872
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:45.840
financial support for Eric's tennis career. Eric was crushed, but

873
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:49.360
nothing could fully dampen his spirits. He had been accepted

874
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:52.039
to UCLA and was set to move into the dorms.

875
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:56.079
College felt like an escape. He was excited, almost giddy

876
00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:59.480
about leaving home and finally tasting a sense of freedom.

877
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:03.159
But Jose had other plans. He announced that Eric would

878
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:06.239
live at home instead so he and Kitty could oversee

879
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.719
his studies. The decision hit hard. Eric needed to get

880
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:13.199
away from his dysfunctional family. Eric had been offered a

881
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:16.760
tennis scholarship to Brown University and had also been accepted

882
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:20.360
to Berkeley, but Jose forbade him from attending either school

883
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:23.880
because he wanted him close to home. UCLA had been

884
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:27.719
the compromise. Now Jose was refusing to allow Eric to

885
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:30.679
live in the dorms, even though on campus housing was

886
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:35.320
a freshman requirement. After a generous donation, the university agreed

887
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.639
to overlook Eric's living arrangements. Years later, while going through

888
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:44.039
paperwork in Jose's office, his sister Marta found Eric's completed

889
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:47.559
Brown application. Jose had never bothered to mail it.

890
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:50.760
There were a few pivotal incidents that happened in the

891
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.519
days before the murders, but this was one of them. Yeah,

892
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:57.199
Eric really just needed to get away, and when Jose

893
00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:58.960
took that away from him, he was.

894
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:03.079
No, I can understand that feeling. It seems a little

895
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.960
weird to me that Jose. It seems like he didn't care,

896
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.079
he didn't pay much attention to Eric, and now all

897
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:10.679
of a sudden he's like wanting to control his life

898
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:11.840
and keep him under his thumb.

899
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:14.119
And I think you really have to ask yourself why

900
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.639
we're going to get more into that in episode two.

901
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:19.679
But he really there were reasons why he wanted to

902
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:20.559
control Eric.

903
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.079
On Tuesday, August fifteenth, while Jose was away on business,

904
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:29.199
a heated argument erupted between Kitty and Lyle. This argument

905
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:32.679
would change everything. Furious because she hadn't been able to

906
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:35.760
see her ailing father, Kitty lashed out at Lyle, who

907
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.039
was frequently the target of her anger. She charged at

908
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.000
him with closed fists, but instead of punching her son,

909
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:45.159
Kitty reached up and grabbed a handful of his thick,

910
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:48.719
dark hair. She tugged with such great force she ripped

911
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:52.360
the to pay clean off his head and then threw

912
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:56.559
it at him in disgust to pay to pay. Eric,

913
00:49:56.599 --> 00:49:59.559
who hadn't known about the hair piece, was stunned when

914
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:01.480
he walked into the room at that moment.

915
00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:05.400
So this really did happen, or at least the brother's

916
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.840
claim that it happened this way.

917
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.880
Two years earlier, in nineteen eighty seven, when Lyle's hair

918
00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:13.800
began to thin, Jose took him to get a two pay.

919
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.760
He said his future would be limited if he didn't

920
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.280
have a full head of hair, and Jose had big

921
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:21.679
plans for his son. He thought he could be a

922
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.400
senator or even president someday. The two pay required him

923
00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:27.760
to shave the entire top of his head and then

924
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:32.239
apply a strong adhesive to keep the hair piece in place. Normally,

925
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:35.760
a solvent was applied to break down the adhesive before removal,

926
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:39.159
so Kitty ripping it clean off caused Lyle a great

927
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:42.480
deal of pain. Hot with shame, he retreated to the

928
00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:46.760
guesthouse bathroom to reapply the two pay. Since returning from

929
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:49.960
Princeton that spring, Lyle had been relegated to the guest

930
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:53.239
house because of his frequent arguments with Kitty and the

931
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.920
disruptions that he caused. When he got home late at night,

932
00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:58.920
Eric came into the guesthouse and waited on the couch

933
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:01.880
for his brother to join them. He was quietly crying,

934
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:04.920
shaken by the weight of his family's secrets and the

935
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:08.519
dysfunction that had shaped his life. Eric was empathetic to

936
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:11.599
his brother's plight, but he was more concerned about his

937
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:14.480
own situation. I have to ask you about this two pay.

938
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.679
Did Kitty know about it or was it.

939
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:20.599
Just Kitty knew about it? Kitty and Jose and obviously

940
00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:22.519
Lyle were the only ones that knew about it. Yeah,

941
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:26.559
allegedly wow, Like described here, it was applied with adhesive.

942
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:31.480
But in the show Monsters, the Netflix traumatization we'll talk

943
00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:34.719
about in part three, it showed the two pay as

944
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:38.119
being kind of like the two pay that doctor Anthony

945
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:42.000
pignataro clip boles. Yeah okay, yeah, but I think it

946
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.039
was like kind of a traditional two pay Okay.

947
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:48.599
Later that night, on August fifteenth, as they talked in

948
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.639
the guest house, Lyle and Eric, as close as they were,

949
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.119
realized that they had kept secrets from each other. Eric

950
00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:58.360
revealed to Lyle that his father had been sexually abusing

951
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.440
him since he was six, and over time it had

952
00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:05.480
become more depraved and violent. Jose threatened Eric that he

953
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:07.960
would kill him if he ever told anyone or went

954
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.159
to the police. Lyle had also been his father's victim

955
00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:13.800
for years when he was younger, but it had stopped

956
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:16.280
by the time he was eight. He had assumed that

957
00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:19.880
Jose had stopped with Eric too. Lyle left the guest

958
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:22.159
house and told Eric he would take care of it.

959
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.280
Lyle knew that Eric had been abused, but I think

960
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:27.519
when he was thirteen he went to his father and

961
00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.239
he was like, you need to stop touching Eric. And

962
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:33.480
I think that he thought that after that conversation it

963
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:36.559
had stopped because it had stopped in his world right

964
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:37.400
when he was eight.

965
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:41.000
So yeah. Lyle found Kitty to tell her what Eric

966
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:44.639
was struggling with, but her anger hadn't subsided from their fight,

967
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:46.960
and she told him to leave. She didn't want to

968
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:50.599
hear it. On Friday, when Jose returned, Lyle met him

969
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.400
in the library and told him that he needed to

970
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.400
stop sexually abusing Eric, that he was going to take

971
00:52:56.480 --> 00:52:59.280
him to Princeton with him. Jose told him that was

972
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:01.199
not going to happen, and then that he needed to

973
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.760
mind his own business. What I do with my son

974
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:07.079
is none of your business. Jose roared, Lyle threatened to

975
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:10.039
go to the police. Jose left the library and went

976
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:13.239
to Eric's room. He aggressively tossed him onto the bed.

977
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:16.360
Eric ran from his bedroom to the TV room, where

978
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:20.320
Kitty sat in the dark. I've always known, she said, menacingly.

979
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:24.039
Do you think I'm stupid? Eric was scared he couldn't

980
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:27.039
trust either of his parents. The brothers sat in the

981
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:30.880
guesthouse talking through their next moves, both terrified that their

982
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.159
parents might have them killed for threatening to expose the

983
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:38.559
family's deepest secrets if they tried to run. Surely Jose

984
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:41.920
had the resources to track them down. Lyle and Eric

985
00:53:41.960 --> 00:53:46.000
decided to secure handguns for protection against their parents, but

986
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.400
when they tried to buy a handgun, they were told

987
00:53:48.440 --> 00:53:51.400
there was a two week waiting period. Instead, they went

988
00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:54.239
to a San Diego sporting goods store and purchased two

989
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.960
six shot moss Bert shotguns for four hundred and twenty

990
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.760
eight dollars. On the required federal form, Lyle scrawled the

991
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.159
name Donovan Goudreau and produced a California driver's license with

992
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:06.920
the same name.

993
00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:09.480
I think that's where we're going to stop for part one.

994
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:12.079
Boy, Well me, I already know where this is going,

995
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:15.239
but it's just such a foreboding feeling everything that's gone

996
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:16.199
on up until.

997
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:19.360
Yeah, everything is coming to a head and the boys

998
00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:21.280
are old enough where they're like, we're not going to

999
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:23.719
take this anymore. We're going to stand up for ourselves.

1000
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:24.239
Yeah.

1001
00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:28.079
I hope everyone finds the background information is interesting as

1002
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:30.679
I do. I'd love to find as much history as

1003
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:32.679
I can about a family, and I think in this

1004
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:34.480
case it's really important.

1005
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.760
Yeah, to know what Yeah, I think the dynamics leading

1006
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:40.480
up to an event like that are really important to understand.

1007
00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:42.920
But I wanted to actually ask you, like, a lot

1008
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:46.039
of these stories that we're telling here, it sounds like

1009
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.199
the only person people that would know about them were

1010
00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:52.000
Lyle and or Eric. So how comfortable are you with

1011
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:54.880
the veracity of their accounts of these things? Do you

1012
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.480
think that they are that these are all truthful or

1013
00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:59.559
do you think there are some that they potentially embellished

1014
00:54:59.599 --> 00:54:59.960
or made up?

1015
00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:03.800
Well, always perceptive, You get to the nugget of the case,

1016
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.239
and that is, you know, the question that everyone has

1017
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:09.239
to ask themselves, like can we believe these brothers? We

1018
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:12.360
know that they've lied about X, Y and Z, how

1019
00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.320
do we believe them about A, B and C? Do

1020
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.840
you think that Lyle and Eric act as if they're

1021
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.400
afraid of their parents? In their real lives.

1022
00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:22.760
Well, it's it's kind of strange because I think in

1023
00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:26.280
situations like that where you know, you're you grow up

1024
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:29.559
and you you have everything, like in terms of monetary

1025
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.400
you know, you've got possessions, you've got access to money,

1026
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:35.480
and so you grow up in some ways entitled. But

1027
00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:37.719
at the same time, I can sort of see where

1028
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.679
you would be scared of your father because he seems

1029
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:44.400
like he's a very you know, aggressive and angry man.

1030
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:47.159
And so it's it's a weird dynamic because you like,

1031
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:49.360
you're entitled on the one hand, and you feel like

1032
00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:52.000
I can do whatever I want without consequences, but on

1033
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:54.599
the other hand, you're afraid of this authority figure in

1034
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:57.239
your life. So I'm not sure how that, you know,

1035
00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:59.519
plays out with someone in that situation.

1036
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:02.440
So why is I didn't rob my neighbor's house growing up

1037
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:06.039
because it was wrong morally wrong and I didn't really

1038
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:10.840
want to, but also because my parents would have absolutely

1039
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:14.920
like punishment would have been huge. So it's things like

1040
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:16.920
that that I have a hard time with. Were you

1041
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.480
really scared of your parents, Like if you were, you know,

1042
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:20.840
acting out all the time?

1043
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:23.960
I mean their parents got them out of so much trouble.

1044
00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:26.559
So they bailed them out when they did anything wrong.

1045
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:28.559
But at the same time, it sounds like their parents

1046
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:32.119
were Their dad at least was horribly abusive to them.

1047
00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:36.280
We're going to talk about one of Eric's friends named

1048
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.599
Craig Signorelli more in episode two. But he told this

1049
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:42.079
anecdote that I can't get out of my head that

1050
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.800
if Eric went into let's say he went into like

1051
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:47.800
the Ralph Laurence story to buy something, and if he

1052
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.719
didn't get someone to wait on him right away, he

1053
00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:55.159
would stand on a table and yell, it's anyone going

1054
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:58.280
to help me? And wow, like I and he laughed

1055
00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:01.440
about it. I'm like, I can't. I can't imagine anyone

1056
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:03.320
doing that. I can't imagine witnessing it.

1057
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:06.079
I can't either. Yeah, I mean it's funny in isolation,

1058
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:08.840
but yeah, with the whole context of everything else, we know,

1059
00:57:08.920 --> 00:57:10.840
it's pretty it's a pretty bad sign.

1060
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:14.320
So around this time, when the boys are acting out

1061
00:57:14.360 --> 00:57:17.039
a little bit, jose had told people that he was

1062
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.239
changing his will and that he was going to disinherit

1063
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:24.079
the boys. Oh really, yes, And so you know whether

1064
00:57:24.159 --> 00:57:27.280
that has something to do with what's what we know happens.

1065
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.920
Yeah, up for debate, and I'm guessing the boys knew

1066
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:31.559
this as well.

1067
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:35.280
M Yeah, he told them that, you know, I'm changing

1068
00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:38.960
my will, which I can't imagine holding your money over

1069
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.440
your kid's heads. Do you see Kitty as a victim

1070
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:41.880
in all.

1071
00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:43.920
Of this kind of I mean, it seems like she

1072
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.519
was in a really bad situation. But at the same time,

1073
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:50.159
you know, she has these two sons and she's not

1074
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:53.440
really she's not really supporting them the way that I

1075
00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:56.760
would expect a mother too. Just that whole comment about

1076
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.800
telling a friend that she wished she hadn't had them.

1077
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:01.480
I think she said that a lot. I think she

1078
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:04.039
said that to friends and family members, and she said

1079
00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:04.760
that to the boys.

1080
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:07.360
Yeah, so I have mixed feelings. I mean, I do

1081
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:11.760
empathize with her situation with jose But at the same time,

1082
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:14.800
it doesn't seem like she did her son's any favors either.

1083
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.960
But she also was dealing with substance abuse diss order,

1084
00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:20.719
so I think that's important to remember too. She might

1085
00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.480
not have said I wish she were never born, right,

1086
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:25.280
you know, when she was sober, but she was under

1087
00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:28.360
the influence of so many different substances that she probably

1088
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:31.440
wasn't thinking clearly. So as we look at this case

1089
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.440
going forward, we have to remember that both parents had

1090
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:38.960
likely sustained some abuse from their parents, right, So how

1091
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.960
these patterns perpetual.

1092
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.039
This whole generational trauma thing, it's just so hard to

1093
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:45.440
get so real, it's so real, but it's just so

1094
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.360
hard to decide in your own mind. Where do you stop,

1095
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.320
you know, blaming your upbringing and where do you start

1096
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.400
taking accountability. It's a really really difficult question.

1097
00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:58.079
Is a tough thing. But these kids are eighteen and

1098
00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:01.440
twenty one, and you know, are still really still kids.

1099
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:03.599
They're still kids. And I did refer to them as

1100
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:05.559
boys a lot. I know they're eighteen and twenty one,

1101
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:08.239
but in my head, you know, that's still kind of

1102
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:12.639
a boy. Yeah, And after you've experienced trauma, your growth

1103
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:15.119
and development is arrested. I think it's really important to

1104
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:16.360
remember in this case too.

1105
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:20.119
Yeah, especially being like sexually abused from a very young age,

1106
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:22.519
that's really hard to get past that.

1107
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:26.960
Do you think that the family's wealth made their dysfunction worse?

1108
00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:31.000
Probably? Yeah, I mean it definitely allowed them to, you know,

1109
00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:33.800
get out of the consequences of different actions.

1110
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:34.559
Yeah, that's true.

1111
00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:36.559
The boys would have been much better served if they

1112
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.760
had actually gotten in trouble for some of the things

1113
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:41.599
that they did. And so yeah, and I think having

1114
00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:44.440
everything and being spoiled that definitely doesn't help.

1115
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:46.159
Do you think they were crying out for attention?

1116
00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:48.760
I guess they probably were in a way.

1117
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:51.679
Yeah, we talked about this a little earlier, but jose

1118
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.320
is really I know, he's not a nice guy. We're

1119
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:58.800
not gonna like him very much. But his career and

1120
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:01.480
the way he learned English so quickly, and I mean,

1121
01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:04.639
he went from not knowing English at age sixteen to

1122
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.320
what was it, age twenty six and he's president of

1123
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:09.119
a company.

1124
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:12.440
And it's incredible and it's really impressive for somebody to

1125
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.079
do that. But at the same time, yeah, it's hard

1126
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:17.480
to it's hard to admire his accomplishments knowing what kind

1127
01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:18.280
of person he was.

1128
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:21.960
Yeah, and even if he is innocent of the allegations

1129
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:24.800
of sexual abuse, he wasn't a nice guy to other people.

1130
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:27.400
You know, A lot of people said he was arrogant,

1131
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:29.719
and he was a tyrant, and he was dismissive to

1132
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:33.000
anyone that he deemed lower than himself, which was a

1133
01:00:33.039 --> 01:00:33.639
lot of people.

1134
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.679
Yeah, it's really sad, but you know, a lot of

1135
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:39.320
times assholes do really well in business, and that's it's

1136
01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:41.840
an unfortunate fact that a lot of times people who

1137
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:45.079
are just jerks end up doing well because they are

1138
01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:47.800
hard driving and you know, say what's on their mind,

1139
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:49.639
and they tend to rise up in the ranks in

1140
01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:51.079
some companies.

1141
01:00:51.320 --> 01:00:53.960
Yeah, we're going to describe it more in part two.

1142
01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:56.519
But did you when you first heard about the crime scene,

1143
01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:59.559
did you think that there were any essence of a

1144
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:00.440
mob there.

1145
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:03.280
I mean, I already knew that the boys did it,

1146
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.760
so I was listening with a different kind of mindset.

1147
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.400
But no, to me, it doesn't It doesn't sound like

1148
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.119
a mob hit. Is that what they were trying to

1149
01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:11.880
make it seem like?

1150
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:13.800
I think they Yeah, they will talk about it more

1151
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:15.480
in part two, but they did want it to seem

1152
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:18.440
that way. And I don't think they've accomplished this. But

1153
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:21.679
they were trying to hit their parents' knees. But in

1154
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:24.519
most mob hits, you wouldn't do it in their home.

1155
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:28.039
I don't think you would take them to a different location. Yeah, exactly,

1156
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.039
and the wife usually wouldn't get killed, right.

1157
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:34.599
Yes, In general, you are correct, and your timing is

1158
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:36.840
very good because I am reading a book about the

1159
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:39.320
Mob right now, So, yes, that you're a spot on.

1160
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:41.840
You talked the other day. I hope I'm not divulging

1161
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.079
too much, but if you could, you would like to

1162
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:46.800
start a second podcast? And what were you going to

1163
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:47.239
call it?

1164
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:49.719
I just find the Mafia fascinating. I was going to

1165
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.719
call it the Mob's Greatest Hits, but I don't know.

1166
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:55.760
I haven't decided yet. I'm not sure I'm actually going

1167
01:01:55.840 --> 01:01:56.119
to do that.

1168
01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:58.440
But it's going to be a solo podcast, right.

1169
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.199
Maybe or maybe I'll find another another partner. I don't know.

1170
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.079
Yeah, sure, wow, but did you did you be like

1171
01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:10.079
in life? Or wow? All right, well, please come back

1172
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:19.559
for part two. So the other day you did something

1173
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:23.400
that shocked me and he's sweaty. He's like, what are

1174
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.239
you going to talk about? We've been together for you know,

1175
01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:28.960
a very long time, and I've never seen you do

1176
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.639
this before, but you claim that you've done it before.

1177
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:32.800
Do you know what I'm talking about?

1178
01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:34.239
I have no idea.

1179
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:37.559
You're making a grilled cheese sandwich. Oh yeah, do you

1180
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:38.760
want to tell everyone what you did?

1181
01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:39.159
Well?

1182
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.679
At the end, just shocked me. It's not that shocking.

1183
01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:45.159
It's not. But I've never seen anyone do it, and

1184
01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:47.639
I've never seen you do it, and you're like, oh, yeah,

1185
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:49.000
this is this is how you do it.

1186
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.280
So at the end of when you're making a grilled

1187
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:54.400
cheese sandwich, one of the challenges is that the cheese

1188
01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:57.440
like if you if the temperature is too high, it

1189
01:02:57.519 --> 01:02:59.639
is done too quick and the cheese doesn't melt. If

1190
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.960
the temper is too low, the cheese doesn't melt. So

1191
01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:04.760
it's really getting the cheese melty is really true.

1192
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:06.599
I feel like you're calling me out here, like my

1193
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:09.199
grilled cheese sandwiches are substandard.

1194
01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:11.400
No, you do a great job. But at the end,

1195
01:03:11.559 --> 01:03:13.920
when the grilled cheese is almost done, what I did?

1196
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.639
You want them? You want the layers to meld. Yes,

1197
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.639
And we have a cheese drawer in our house and

1198
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.719
it's usually there's how many varieties of cheese do you

1199
01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:23.079
think we have?

1200
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:26.039
I don't know, probably five, Yeah, we probably.

1201
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:27.639
Have five, which is a little embarrassing.

1202
01:03:27.719 --> 01:03:29.880
So at the end of the grilled cheese making process,

1203
01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:33.000
what I did was I sprinkled a little bit of

1204
01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:35.280
water into the pan and then I covered the pan.

1205
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:37.920
You didn't sprinkle a little, you took a cup.

1206
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:40.440
It wasn't that much water. But I did put a

1207
01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:41.280
little too much water.

1208
01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:43.679
And it should be less.

1209
01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:45.599
It should be enough just to make it steam up.

1210
01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:47.519
And you put the cover on so the steam gets

1211
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:49.760
in there and it helps get the cheese all melty.

1212
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:52.760
We at the restaurant I worked at growing up, that

1213
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.599
was how we made grilled cheese. You had like a lid.

1214
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:57.599
It would be on the grill, but you'd put some

1215
01:03:57.679 --> 01:03:59.400
water on it and you'd cover it with a lid.

1216
01:03:59.559 --> 01:04:02.559
Yeah, is like, what are you doing? Why would you

1217
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:05.280
put water on a grilled cheese damwich? Because to me,

1218
01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:07.679
like the best part of a like a grilled sandwich

1219
01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:11.039
is the crispiness because I hate anything that soggy. I'm

1220
01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:13.880
a texture person. And then I felt your sandwich and

1221
01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:16.000
I was like, oh, look it's a little saggy here

1222
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:17.519
on the corner, and you really shut up.

1223
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:20.719
I accidentally put a little bit too much water, yes, so,

1224
01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:23.360
but it was a good stand by the technique.

1225
01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:25.599
Stand by the technique, so I mean, and.

1226
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:27.559
It was a good grilled cheese other than the soggy

1227
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:30.119
part of the bread where the water soaked in. Yeah, well,

1228
01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:32.679
I'm glad I can still surprise you even after all

1229
01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:34.119
these hairs together.

1230
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:35.719
No, it was wild.

1231
01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:36.400
You know.

1232
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:38.840
It sounds like such a minor thing, but I was like,

1233
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:43.079
what the heck heck are you doing? Did you cover

1234
01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:43.920
the whole pan?

1235
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:44.920
Yeah?

1236
01:04:45.039 --> 01:04:47.360
Okay, so they live? Yeah, so I don't know. There,

1237
01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:50.039
there you go. There's a new there's a new trick.

1238
01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:52.199
Let us know how you make your grilled cheese is

1239
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:53.639
at home and what.

1240
01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:57.000
Your spouse does that surprises you still to this day.

1241
01:04:57.239 --> 01:04:59.239
Like last week we were talking about how you sometimes

1242
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:02.920
wear socks about now, I don't know who you are anymore, sir.

1243
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:07.119
I believe in continually changing and evolving, no matter how

1244
01:05:07.159 --> 01:05:07.679
old you are.

1245
01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:12.440
Okay, So I want to see if we have psychic abilities.

1246
01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:13.280
Are you ready for this?

1247
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:15.280
I'm pretty sure we don't, but yes, sure.

1248
01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:19.920
Okay. So I have a marker in my hand, and

1249
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:25.079
I am going to send you a mental telepathic message. Okay,

1250
01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:29.599
what color the marker is? Okay? Okay, So okay, I'm

1251
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:31.320
not sending it to you yet. So I want to

1252
01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:32.840
make sure I have the right color. I want to

1253
01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:35.199
make sure I can see the color before Okay, and

1254
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:38.880
three two one I'm gonna I'm gonna send you the message.

1255
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:44.320
Okay, ready, all right, this is good content. Okay, I

1256
01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:45.679
didn't get the message.

1257
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:46.719
Okay, keep trying.

1258
01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:48.920
Okay, I think it's red.

1259
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:51.800
You're close. Yeah, orange?

1260
01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:52.360
Oh orange.

1261
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.039
Okay, you want to try it again because this is

1262
01:05:54.280 --> 01:05:56.719
really good because you have to focus just for a second.

1263
01:05:56.800 --> 01:06:00.280
So, okay, I think it's blue. I saw it you

1264
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:02.519
How did you see it under the table. It was

1265
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:04.800
that you moved your hand just so I was.

1266
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:08.400
Like, oh my gosh, we're psychically intertwined. Okay, of one more,

1267
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:09.119
don't peek.

1268
01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:12.920
Okay, it's green. I got that one. Did you see it?

1269
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:14.440
I was going to do the orange one again, but

1270
01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:15.880
then you were going to see me move it from

1271
01:06:15.880 --> 01:06:18.400
the table, So we're kind of psychically lyank well, I was.

1272
01:06:18.440 --> 01:06:20.519
Kind of using the process of elimination on that one.

1273
01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:21.320
It's like, okay, so.

1274
01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:24.320
Green, thank you can read my mind? No, no, I

1275
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:26.679
don't think you can't either, because maybe your gifts would

1276
01:06:26.679 --> 01:06:27.480
be better if.

1277
01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:29.159
You could read exactly.

1278
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:33.519
I'm just kidding. You're lovely well, and our listeners are lovely.

1279
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:34.000
They are.

1280
01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:37.800
And Alisha from Amarillo, Texas, she is lovely for sending

1281
01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:41.400
us such a thoughtful package. Oh lovely, and our BUCkies,

1282
01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:43.760
not our BUCkies, because it's not that would be dangerous.

1283
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:46.880
Probably there was a BUCkies like close, but I think

1284
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:50.599
it's three hours away and it's opening in April. It

1285
01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:52.679
was supposed to open. I think at the end of

1286
01:06:52.719 --> 01:06:53.639
twenty twenty five.

1287
01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:56.199
It's going to be in Ohio, Like yeah, about three

1288
01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:57.559
or four hours south of US.

1289
01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:00.440
And in a place where we probably wouldn't it outside

1290
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:01.119
of Columbus.

1291
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.039
I think it's near Dayton, I think not far from.

1292
01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:07.599
Columbus, so we'll definitely plan a road But I feel

1293
01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:09.800
like you guys are sweet listeners have been so like,

1294
01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:12.000
I don't think I'm going to be super surprised.

1295
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:13.920
We've gotten to try a lot of BUCkies things we.

1296
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:17.639
Have not tried, brisket sandwich or they're sparkling clean bathrooms,

1297
01:07:17.679 --> 01:07:19.280
so that will be super exciting.

1298
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:20.199
I can't wait.

1299
01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:23.440
Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We really

1300
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:26.440
appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed this episode, And if

1301
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:29.960
you'd like to hear the conclusion of the Menendez brother's case,

1302
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:31.519
you can join us on Patreon.

1303
01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:34.320
We have one tier. It's five dollars a month and

1304
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:37.960
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1305
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:40.639
at the same time, we also do a monthly bonus

1306
01:07:40.679 --> 01:07:42.280
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1307
01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.000
And the best way to support our podcast is to

1308
01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:47.599
like this episode or to give us a five star

1309
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:51.480
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1310
01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:56.039
YouTube and TikTok. Until next time, don't kill your wife

1311
01:07:56.119 --> 01:08:57.279
and don't kill her husband.

1312
01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:39.880
To the companion with the