The Mysterious Death of Robert Wone

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm fabulous? Sorry to interrupt your lions game. Oh it's okay, anything for you. It's your birthday week. Yeah, it's super exciting. Oh, it is super exciting. How old are you going to be? Old? Good enough? Good enough? So remember last night I was we were talking about interrogations, uh huh, and we were both like, because the case that I am going to present to you, there's a lot of interrogation. Yeah, And I was just like, I kind of want to be part of an interrogation. I want to you do all right, I've got one for you. Okay. So one of our really sweet listeners offered to send us a snack, and I was like, you know what, that's something I can just pick up with the grocery store.

1:14 She just wanted you to be able to, you know, because she knows that you like a certain food and she wanted us to try them on air, and so I went to find this certain food and they were all gone, Okay, do you know what could have happened to the Oreos, the doubles, the mega stuffed Oreos that were this is the interrogation. Yeah, they go lawyer, lawyer, I would they they were under arrest. If not, I'm just leaving. And you should be because it was a crime, because they were all like I bought it was. They were up there for a while, but it was hidden, and if something is hidden, it's not like I'm being rude, like this package of Oreos is just for me. But then I literally forgot they were there, and I was like, oh, I need a snack for this episode. We'll do the mega stuffed Oreos. So I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, okay, where'd they go? Then, no idea? I will lawyer.

2:15 I'm going to order the home fingerprint kit, okay, and yeah, do some DNA testing and yeah, yeah, interesting. Well I did bring a snack, even though you don't deserve it. Another Lovely listener recommended that we try something called Truefreu t r U f r U. I've seen them around. I've seen people posting about them on social media, but I hadn't tried them, and I kind of wanted to. So I brought two kinds. I brought you peanut butter, banana and cherry. Okay, so do you want to take a quick break and try these? Sure, I didn't do a good job describing that to at all. It's fruit. It's fruit that's frozen, and then it has some chocolate on it. Yeah, it's kind of like a chocolate that you get in a box of chocolates with like a fruit thing in the middle. Really going to get a banana in a box of chocolate? That's true. That's true. The cherry, I think.

3:13 I like the cherry one. The banana one not so much. I didn't really like the banana either. It's like a banana with a little bit of peanut butter. And I was actually going to make something like that homemade that I saw somewhere the banana, but you kept me waiting for like half an hour because you were watching a lot of ends game, and so the banana is a little mushy. I wonder if it's better if it's a little pressure. Maybe I'm not cherry I love, Yeah, I did too. I'm not just not a big fan of bananas in my desserts. As you know, I don't. I don't know if I know, other than your banana bread. I love your banana bread, but like banana cream pie and stuff like that that I'm just not a family that Nilla way for putting stuff. I make that every once in a while. Yeah, I love a bananas dessert. Actually, I love banana cream pie, and I love You're just a heart. If it's not chocolate, you don't want to It's very difficult.

4:01 I apologize. This is riveting. As always, you're here for your oat Rich's dietary likes and dislikes. Yeah, all right, Well, I have a I did research a case here I want to present to you. Tell me looking forward to hearing about it. Oh boy, it's probably one of the most other than Rebecca's how, because no case is more head scratching than Rebecca's a how. But the mysterious death of Robert jan w o n E. That's a story I'm going to be telling you. And I did want to give a content warning for today's episode. While not explicit, there is some sexual content and adult themes that might make some listeners uncomfortable. Please listen with care. I'll try to give you a little bit of a like this is coming. You might want to fast forward a little bit, but I'm not going to go into great detail, and I'll try to make it as antiseptic as possible. Okay, all right. On the night of August second, two thousand and six, Robert Wan, thirty two, an attorney in Washington, d C. Worked late into the night. Rather than taking a late train home to the suburbs, he crashed for the night with his college friend Joseph Price. Robert was found dead one hour and nineteen minutes later from three abdominal stab wounds. The inhabitants of the house claimed an intruder stabbed Robert, but there was no evidence supporting this theory. I promise you will not be able to get this story out of your head for days and weeks to come. This is the story of the mysterious murder of Robert Juan.

5:33 Robert Eric Juan was born in Manhattan on June first, nineteen seventy four, to parents William and Amy. His brother, Andrew was born five years later. William worked as a VP for Chase Bank, and Amy was a school librarian. Robert was a fourth generation Chinese American. He grew up in Brooklyn, where he went to an all boys Catholic school and graduated at the top of his class. He was a Mets fan and liked to go to the games with his family. He attended the College of William and Mary in Virginia as a James Monroe Scholar, beginning in nineteen ninety two, majoring in public policy. The College of William and Mary is the second oldest college in the US, founded in sixteen ninety three, named for King William the Third and Queen Mary the Second. Only Harvard has been in existence longer. Robert met Joseph Price during a campus tour with his parents and became fast friends. Joe was a senior while Robert was a freshman. Both were interested in pursuing a law degree. They were active in student government together and also belonged to thirteen Club, whose mission was to do random acts of kindness around campus. Robert was always thoughtful in caring, putting others before himself. During finals week, Robert would surprise weary students studying at the library with candy. He was known to carry loose change in his pocket to put in expired parking meters. He made many lifelong friends at William and Mary. Was recognized for his academic excellence by the Omicron, Delta, Kappa Mortar Board, and Golden Key International Honor

7:08 Society. Same same you mean you me too, Jamesy's Yes, same me too. Of course, Well you had more academic accolades than I did. Robert received the Elder Non Sydney Sullivan Award from the college at graduation. It is presented to a student excelling in quote characteristics of heart, mind and helpfulness to others. After he graduated from William and Mary in nineteen ninety six, Robert went to law school at Penn State and graduated in nineteen ninety nine with honors. He was exceptionally intelligent, hard working, and ambitious. Robert was passionate about racial equality and proud of his Chinese heritage. His accomplishments advocacy, volunteer work, and organizations he belonged to are too long to list. Once out of law school, he passed the bar I don't know this, but I'm guessing on the first time and worked as a law clerk for federal Judge Raymond Jackson and then moved on to the very prestigious law firm Covington and Burling, where he practiced real estate law for six years. Sounds like a fabulous young man. Robert met Chicago attorney Catherine Ellen Wu in January two thousand and two at a legal conference in Philadelphia. Kathy was first attracted to his voice over the phone when she called him to ask him to be a panelist for a session she was organizing. I don't want you to get a big head, but I was attracted to your voice. Oh, when we first met

8:39 too. Now it's just great sammy all day law, just creating. Be careful. I was just kidding. You have a very nice voice. When they met in person, shy, Kathy was interested but wasn't comfortable with being the aggressor, but she found the courage to introduce herself. They felt an immediate attraction and talked late into the night. They began talking on the phone regularly. Robert called Kathy every night at eight pm. They had their first date on Valentine's Day when Kathy was in DC for work. They began dating, flying frequently between Chicago and d C. That's like kind of a long distance relationship, ye After a month long trip together to China, Robert surprised Kathy when they returned home with an apartment filled with flowers, rose petals led to a silver box with a fortune cooking inside, with the message will you marry me? Very romantic? I know so sweet. They married soon after in June two thousand and three, with Judge Jackson performing the ceremony. That's the judge that he had clerked for. Joe Price and his partner Victor Zeborski attended the wedding. Robert had recently been elected president of the nonprofit group National Asian Pacific American Bar Association, who are an organization representing Asian Pacific American lawyers in the United States. The group advocates for the confirmation of more Asian Pacific judges. Robert was very active in his church community and a mentor in the Asian American community. He was known for his bright smile, intellect, kindness,

10:13 and generosity of his time and skills, doing pro bono law work whenever possible, among his many other obligations to the organizations he belonged to. Do you feel I feel lazy? Like when I hear about people like this, I'm like I get out of I don't. Yeah, I need to step it up. Yeah, need too. He and Kathy wanted to start a family. Kathy had lupis and was warned by her doctors that becoming pregnant may endanger her life. Robert told her, quote, it took my whole life to find you. Why would I want to endanger your health for anything. The couple had just started the process to adopt a baby girl from China. In July two thousand and six, Robert landed his dream job at Radio Free Asia as general counsel. Radio Free Asia is a nonprofit organization funded by the US government that broadcasts news and cultural programming to China, North Korea, and other parts of Asia. It was a pay cut for Robert, but he knew the importance of getting accurate news and information to Asian countries lacking free media.

11:13 Kathy encouraged him to take the job. She told him she didn't need a Lexus, A Honda was just fine. I mean, just a lovely couple, A lovely couple. In two thousand and six, Joseph Price thirty five and the Victors of Boriski forty had been in a committed relationship since the year two thousand. Joe was well known in the Lgbtqia community. He co founded and served as General counsel for Equality Virginia. From two thousand and two to two thousand and six, he worked as an attorney for Erant Fox, a prestigious law firm where he practiced intellectual property law. Victor z Aboriski is known to be kind, quiet, and subdued. He was a marketing executive for the Dairy Association and worked on the very popular got Milk campaign. Well, it's a great campaign. It was a great They really no one drinks milk anymore. Everyone drinks almond milk or oat milk or soy milk, So they need another they campaign because I would be curious to see the numbers.

12:13 Yeah, but like our kids refused to drink cow's milk. Yeah. Dylan Ward joined Joe and Victor about two years into their relationship. He had a master's degree in children's literature. He began a small publishing house and published and wrote several of his own books, Naughty Jack, Silly Sally, The Loneliest Tree in the World, and Forget Me Not. Dylan also had a culinary arts degree. He was working as a messuse in two thousand and six. The men were part of a polyamorous relationship, but Dylan was kind of the third wheel. Are you following? I think I am. Yeah. You threw me for a little bit of a loop there when you said that Dylan joined the relationship. I wasn't sure what you meant, but then you cleared it up with polyamorous relationship. So we have Joe, who is Robert's college friend, and then he is I don't think they were married, but he and Victor have been together for a long time. And yeah, then Dylan comes into the picture and we're going to go on from there. There was obvious tension among Victor and Dylan, both vuying for Joe's attention, but it was Victor that shared a bedroom and his life with Joe. Dylan was more of a free spirit, noncommittal in life and love, but the three men were working on solidifying their commitment as a family. They actually called themselves a family. Joe and Victor have two sons together with a lesbian couple who live in Silver Spring, Maryland. Joe was the donor for one son and Victor for the other. Joe and Robert had been close friends since college. They

13:43 got together three to four times a year as their schedules allowed. Victor and Dylan were friendly with Robert, but not as close. Joe and Victor hosted Robert's thirtieth birthday party in two thousand and four at their house. Robert was heterosexual and very much in love with his wife, Kathy, so Joe, Victor, and Dylan lived together at fifteen oh nine Swan Street, a thirty one hundred square foot four bedroom, four bath row house and the affluent DuPont Circle neighborhood in DC, about a mile from the White House. Joe and Victor had purchased the house in April two thousand and five for one point three million dollars. Beautiful house. Row houses are continuous with their neighbor no space between them, and walls are shared. You can picture that, right.

14:28 Oh yeah, Well, I've been to DC many times and I yeah, there's a lot of those there. It must be really fun when your neighbors are under construction. Yeah. Fifteen oh nine Swan Street was impeccably clean and tastefully decorated. The small backyard was surrounded by an eight foot fence with a gate that was always dead bolted. The main floor consisted of a small entryway, a living room, dining room, and a kitchen. Dylan's room, a bathroom, and a study with a pullout sofa that doubled as a guest room were on the second floor. Victor and Joe I was primary suite. A bedroom, bathroom, and study took the entire third floor. There was an apartment in the basement that was rented out to their friend Sarah, who was not home on the night of August second. August second, two thousand and six was a hot, humid day when Robert and Kathy won awoke in their townhouse in Oakton, Virginia. They went to the gym for their morning workout before they took the train into d C where they worked. They were both busy, disciplined people who liked to stick to a schedule. Robert gave Kathy a quick kiss and I love you before partying at eight forty five am at heading to their respective jobs. Kathy had just started a new job at American Health Law Association in July, and Robert two was settling into his new job at Radio Free Asia. He had a continuing legal education class that would keep him in the city later than usual. That night. Robert hadn't had an opportunity to meet the overnight radio staff yet and planned on doing that since he would be in the city late. A couple of weeks earlier, he

16:00 had reached out to two friends to see if he could stay the night at either of their places so he wouldn't have to take the late train back to Oakden. First, he reached out to a female friend. When she didn't answer immediately, Robert reached out to Joe Price. Joe assured Robert he was welcome to spend the night at his place, which was only a few minutes away from his new office. After his class an introduction to the overnight team at Radio Free Asia, Robert was tired from his long day. He called Kathy at nine thirty pm to wish her a good night and say I love you. Then he called Joe and told him he'd be there soon. He arrived at fifteen oh nine Swan Street in a taxi at ten thirty pm. This was the first time Robert had ever spent the night at the row House.

16:41 Victor had returned from a business trip earlier that evening and was exhausted, so he retired to his room before Robert's arrival. He planned to catch up with him over breakfast. In the morning, Joe and Dylan greeted Robert and chatted for fifteen to twenty minutes over a glass of water before showing him to the spare bedroom slash office where he would be staying. He said he was going to take a shower and go to sleep. Joe and Victor were watching Project Runway in bed together. Victor was feeling congested after his flight and took a pseudo fed along with a Unisom sleeping pill. Project Runway ended at eleven PM, and Joe and Victor went to sleep. Joe heard the doorchime and assumed it was either their tenant, Sarah or Dylan, but Dylan had also taken a sleeping pill and was fast asleep. Joe, Victor, and Dylan were oblivious to the reason uptick and break ins around DuPont's Circle and were casual about setting their security system. It was not set on the night of August second. Moments after hearing the doorchime, Joe and Victor heard sounds they described as guttural moans coming from the level below. They rushed down the stairs and found Robert unconscious, lying on his back, with a knife lying on his chest and what Joe described as a lot of blood. Victor became hysterical, screaming and crying. Joe told him to call nine one one while he tended to Robert. Joe later admitted that he had moved the knife from Robert chess and placed it on the nightstand. At eleven forty nine pm, Victor called nine one one and we're gonna play the nine one one call, and it's

18:14 I think it's seven eight minutes long, but I think it's important you hear the whole thing. All right, Let's listen NBC Emergency NAM one operator six seven five two. Do you need ponies, fire or amiens? Maybe manually? What's wrong? Man? Were just we had someone name us in our house evidently, and they stabbed somebody. Okay, somebody's inaud the house now, I don't know. We've heard I'm a bleeding, see someone bleeding. Someone is bleeding in our health Okay, where's they bleeding from? I think he's in the stomachs. May be cautious. I'm down for man. I'm gonna sat him help, Okay, female O male it's a male. He's a friend of ours who spent you're spending the night with us. Okay, who was the person that stabbed him? Do you know if he's conscious?

19:06 We need going, ma'am. This is tell me he's not conscious. He's not conscious at all. No, we need where now? Is he breathing? Listen to me, calm down, gonna help you? Okay? If he's breathing, I'm upstairs and he's downstairs. I don't know. Okay, who's downstairs with him? My partner is downstairs with him my house. He told me to go upstairs in the politics immediately. Okay. Who's the person? Okay, I'm sending the paramids and the police. Okay, who is the person that stabbed him? I don't know. We think that's somebody will an intruder in the house. He heard the time the door. There's fifteen A man. Calm down, fifteen O nine Swine Street, northwest of my correct the person that says him, he's still in the home. I don't know. We got help him, rud, Okay, pardon me. We have helped him, Ruth. From here. They are they in route to you now. I'm seeing the police and the paramedicsal case who assists. Okay, what I need you to do is go downstairs, okay, the place where wherever he was saying that. I need you to get a drink, law okay, and just apply pressure to that area if he just wherever he was saying, back on his body. I need you to take a towel down stairs while you're waiting for the paramedics to arrive, and just apply pressure.

20:36 Even if the rag or tower is saturated with blood, just get it another towel and put it on top. But never lifted the first towel off the area holding on him. Once he gets sealed that we're bood, just put another towel on top of that and just apply pressure into the paramedics, right yeah, yeah, and the heart Okay, if he's breathing, we have help and right now okay, you don't know who it was, don't don't help Christmas. Okay, is he breathing? Okay, we have help and roll now I'm okay, we do have help and rout Okay, just go down there and try to tell your husband or your other the other half to just try to keep them calm and talk to him occain, keep them calm and talk to him cause someone gets there, and at the same time, get a dry cloth and just hold it right there in the area.

21:41 Okay, okay, and once it gets saturated with blood till then get another one. Go get another town. So you've been apply it on top of dollar. Once he gets healed oub with blood, we need we need you to apply pressure on that area. Okay, just hold it th intil the paramids get there. They should be putting up any moment if they're already en roud to your location. You don't know who did this, havenny y. It's a door open so they can get in. We don't know how they got in. Okay, well I'm asking you now. It's the door open so the paramedicine get in once they get here. But sorry, what were you saying? It's the door open so they can get in. It's a door open so the so the paramedicine get in the home. It's a private home, apartment, it's a home. It's a home at sixteen or nine Swan Street, north Wide. The person had one of our lives, the person that stays the rain out the door with the knife. I think.

22:37 Okay, anybody get any type of description of the person that came in home. We have no description. We heard we heard the chime and we heard the scream from our farmis okay, And so we came running downstairs, were running. So you both was upstairs and your friend was downstairs. You heard the door open and then you heard the scream. We didn't. I didn't hear the door open until after the screen. And then we ran down the chairs and we heard we are we have an alarm until the time went off. Okay, is the induluence? We really need the influence? Okay, saying row now, ma'am, go to the door. They should be putting up any moment. Okay, I'm afraid you're gonnaunderstand her the person who's down sairs with the person that was sported. No, we're in the on the second floor. Okay, So somebody need to go to says, opening the door for the pair of men. You're not sure if that person is still in a home in that have I okay, we have paramedic and road Okay, what time is it? What time is it at the moment? The twenty three fifty four is eleven sixty four? Man? Yes, I mean I'll stand in line with you. I will stay on the line, said somebody gets there. Time, won't hang on. We need them right now.

23:45 I'm not hanging up, but we need we need help now. Okay, they row, ma'am, they iron row. Let me know when you hear the paramedic and you look out the window and CVM coming. I'm looking out the window and I see nothing. I see nobody. Okay it seemed like for Apple, but they iron route. Man, they're coming here, they are here, they are They're they're going downstairs. Okay, after in the line with you to you open, go for a paramedutes. Okay, help us. We don't want to stop throwing our second floor. Uh huh yeah, man, that's really hurry. Man, it's gonna be okay.

25:04 It's hard to listen to. I failed to mention that the nine one one operator thought that Victor was a woman, and he never corrected her. Yeah, so what did you think? Boy? It just sounds like a hard situation, just terrifying. Like if you're Victor and you don't know if the person who stabbed Robert is still in the house, that's like, do you think his reaction was real? Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, it did not detect any kind of acting or anything on that now, just to clarify for my own benefit, So was Robert on the first floor or the second floor where he was sleeping. There are three floors, there's a basement and then there's three floors, right, So Robert was on the second floor, okay. And Victor and Joe their bedroom was all the third floor. Okay.

25:49 And Dylan's bedroom was also on the second floor, second floor. Okay, good question. Two AMTS, Jeff Baker and Tracy Weaver arrived within five minutes, and I just wanted to say, I just am so grateful and amazed that EMTs and nine one up operators exist and do such a fabulous job keeping people, protecting people and getting people medical treatment. It's just amazing to me that they got there that fast. Yeah, within five minutes, and they're going into this house where they don't they don't know if they don't know what they're going to say. They first encountered Victor in a white robe, who simply muttered stabbing on the second floor through his muffled sobs. They headed up the stairs, where they saw Dylan wrapped in a bath towel. He looked at the EMTs didn't say a word, pointed to the room Robert was in, then walked into his bedroom and closed the door. Joe was sitting at the edge of the bed in the guest room at the other end of the hallway and only his underwear and told Jeff I heard a scream. Robert was lying on the nearly perfectly made pull out sofa bed, lying on his back, with three precise stab wounds, two on his upper chest and one on his abdomen, almost surgical in nature. He was wearing athletic shorts, a gray William and Mary t shirt and underwear. The odd thing was there was very little blood on the bed betting or Robert's body. The blue and white striped betting wasn't rumpled, and the devey was neatly folded at a forty five degree angle. Jeff said it looked like Robert had been stabbed, then

27:21 showered and posed on the bed. He noted a slight red hue to his abdomen and a towel like texture to his skin. Robert was unresponsive, without a pulse, pale and cold to the touch. His pupils were fixed and dilated. Both the mts later said something felt off and even eerie about the situation. Jeff Baker told investigators that the scene caused the hairs on the back of his neck to stand up. Mind you, the EMTs were seasoned professionals. They'd seen a lot in their combined twenty five years of experience, but they were still spooked by the scene. At fifteen oh nine Swan Street, the EMTs transferred Robert to the ambulance. His shorts and T shirt were cut from his body and retained for evidence. Robert was intubated and chest compressions began.

28:08 Attempts at establishing an ivy line and multiple locations failed. The ambulance arrived at George Washington University Hospital, where doctors made more attempts to restart Robert's heart, but it was too late. He could not be resuscitated. He was pronounced dead at twelve twenty four am on August third. Joe Price called Robert's wife, Kathy, awakening her at twelve oh four am. Joe told her she needed to get to the hospital as soon as possible. Kathy called Robert's parents and picked them up on the way to the hospital. It is such a heartbreaking, I know, poor Kathy and she seems like the sweetest woman.

28:48 Shortly after twelve am on August third, police arrived on the scene after Robert was taken away in an ambulance. The three roommates were all wearing spotless white robes and looked to have freshly showered wet, which raised some eyebrows. They sat on the couch together while the investigation ensued. Officers observed them whispering amongst themselves. Dylan began speaking, breaking the heavy silence. Joe gave him a foreboding look, and he quieted. Joe became the spokesperson for the group. He told the detectives that they had all gone to bed around ten forty five, and then some time later he was awoken by the door. Time, he assumed it was the fourth roommate. The fourth roommate, that's the one that lived in the basement. Yes, Sarah, who lived in the base She wasn't there, right, she was not there. That night, Joe started to fall back to sleep when he and Victor heard a scream coming from Robert's room. Joe walked the police around the house to demonstrate their actions that night. He noted that the back door was unlocked and remained slightly ajar.

29:49 He volunteered that an intruder must have come in and stabbed Robert. He mentioned a homeless man frequented the alley and he may have come into the house. There was no evidence an intruder had entered the home. There was no forced entry, no items were missing, and the house was perfectly clean. Joe had made a critical error during the initial questioning. Police officer Diane Durham arrived on the scene, Joe, then only wearing underwear, told her a different story than the one that he would later tell. Diane said quote, he said they heard someone scream and ran downstairs to see underwear. Guy said the victim was that the patio door bleeding. They opened the door, took him upstairs and laid him on the bed, and then she told him to go put some clothes on. Don't blame her. So their story is that they found Robert in the bed. Yeah. Then he had told Diane, Oh, no, he was, he was by the Yeah, that's strange.

30:45 Yeah, it was very strange. At twelve thirty am, all three men were transported separately to the Metropolitan Police Department's Violent Crimes Brand or VCB to continue the interview while investigators stayed behind and searched the house. They were taken into three separate rooms and the interviews were taped. The police were hyper focused on Robert's sexuality and didn't understand why he would spend the night in a house with three gay men. Well, the back door wasn't wide open, the gate wasn't open. No one jumped the fence, Nobody landed in the dirt. There's the dirt is not disturbed in any way around the fence where you would have to stand to climb over the fence. Nobody climbed over the fence either direction. They didn't go out that way. I don't know how it's what you would see with the dirt. But oh I don't know. I do know, and I've been on many and many a see. Okay, I don't know, I honestly. But what I do know, without a shadow of a doubt, is that neither Dylan or or you don't do anything.

31:47 I do know that I know that what on earth, what a reason on God's queen Earth would they have to do this? But you know it's not even possible. They couldn't, even like Joe, I have a problem because the whole time I sit here and talk with you, I have yet to hear you say you wouldn't do it. I'm getting okay, you know what, because that's I don't even need to say I wouldn't do it. It's impossible because this is one of my oldest friends. I mean, this guy. I went to Joe, Joe, you guys can't Joe, if if if if, if I didn't do it, and all these guys are my friend. I'm not going to say. I'm not going to say, Joe, if somebody else didn't do it, I'm going to say, we ain't do it. That's the way I'm going to respond. I'm going to say we didn't. I'm taking it for granted that you guys don't think I did it. But you know, obviously I'm an idiot. Okay, maybe you know I'm a I'm a suspect too, But you know why, this is one of my oldest friends. What on what on earth would possess me to do such a thing, never mind could I do it? It's it's crazy. The whole thing is crazy. Yeah, the guy ain't supposed to be staying over at your house tonight. That's crazy. That doesn't make any sense. But just ask his wife if he was planning to. I can show you the emails right here. Probably, I mean, I you know, I got my BlackBerry. This is from my work account. Well, maybe he's thinking about doing a little experimentation. I don't you know if that

33:17 were I would tell you, guys, would you? Because what? Because why not tell you? I mean, my god, I want you to find who did this. Suppose you would, I'll give you one right, And you know it. You're making me say it. You know what? The reason? I don't know it. I got three homosexuals in a house and I got one straight guy. What's he doing over there? What is there? I think we're all drinking wine. You know what's going to happen tonight. You're coming to Jesus tonight. That's what's going on. That's fascinating and insulting. And here, that's why you're made me say it. But you know what, that's not what happened. You ever happily married? I do know that. But Joe is not happily married, is he? Yeah?

34:05 He is? To you? Yes? Yeah, okay, yeah, that's why you're upstairs with Victory. He's downstairs with Robert Robert. Yeah, so it's impossible. I was just say that a straight man to be friends with me. Yeah, I can understand them being a little the polyamorous thing with the three guys that I can understand. The police are probably not familiar with that. It's probably a you know, they probably have a hard time understanding that. But and it was fifteen years ago. Yeah, so I I will give them a little a little bit of credit for they're not credit but grace for that. But yeah, can I ask you, though, did was any evidence found by the patio door, like was their blood there the place that he told the officer that that he was stabbed at? Or no? Okay, It was noted that Joe was arrogant and loquacious while Dylan and Victor were quiet and subdued. Because Joe and Victor were partners. I mean, they were all partners, but you know the longest term relationship with Joe and Victor. The investigators honed in on Dylan, assuming that he would be the most likely to spill the truth. He was given a polygraph test and he was only asked two questions, did you kill Robert? Do you know who killed Robert? And he failed. As the night wore on, Joe changed his story and admitted that he had actually pulled the knife out of Robert's chest, and the three men were there. They were kept there for hours, well until after dawn. Here's another quick clip of Victor's interrogation.

35:39 You may have been told by your friends this is not gonna work. We haven't talked at all, Victor. I swear we have not talked at all. The only conversation we had was in front of police officers. Rouginis or friend the chair usin Yes, No, it's not no, it's not. Yes that you have talked. You have talked. He talked to Joe, and he talked to Dylan, and one or both of them are talking to us. Now. You wanna be the only one left out there? Yes, I wanna be the only one that left left out there if that's the case, because I am telling you one hundred percent the honest truth. That is not the truth. It is not the truth. That man was dead for a while. It's impossible. It's impossible. It's not impossible. It's a medical certainty. Yes, yes, think about your story. A person breaking in. Nobody's gonna believe that somebody breaks into your house, goes into that particular room to kill Robert. You don't even though he was there.

36:49 You cannot go to jail. I'm telling you from experience as many years as a police officer, you will not last in DC jail. Those boys will eat you alive. That is not a place that you want to go. And you don't want to go. They're covering some bullshit. U I'm not covering anything up. You need to tell the truth. I am. Things can be worked out. People understand there's different levels of homicide. I honest, honestly, I am telling you exactly. The fact that I know you're not. Yes, I can, No, you're not. That clip just makes me laugh a little bit because it's like, no, you're not, Yes you are, No, you're It's just obviously that police officer is a parent, because that sounds like so many interrogations I've had with you. Yes, yeah, but it doesn't Victor. I mean, Victor seems very sincere, like both on the nine on non call and in that interrogation. I do not, just based on hearing his voice, I do not believe he is lying. I mean, of course we're gonna discuss this at the end, so I'm not gonna say too much else. At this point, Victor was exhausted from the adrenaline wearing off, the sleeping pill and his earlier flight.

38:00 At one point, he asked for an attorney and said he was done answering questions. The detective agreed to let him go, left the room, said I'll be right back. He returned and then began questioning him again. He kind of played a dirty trick on him. He was just like, I'm just gonna go to check in with Joe real quick. I'll be right back. And then he comes in the room and he was like, let me get what was your full name again? And what was your birthday? And then he just starts questioning him again, and the Victor was too nice to say, I want my lawyer again. And meanwhile, back at the townhouse, the crime scene was thoroughly scoured. Several items were taken into possession. The sheets on the pullout sofa bed had two blood stains, not small in nature, and I'm being generous here by calling them about the size of a dinner plate. So there was just two bloodstains. That's it, okay, But considering a man had been stabbed, and murdered in the bed.

38:53 There was very little blood. A large white towel was found on the floor. I remember the nine one one and she was like, apply pressure to the wound, and you know, you would expect a fair amount of blood, and I'll post a picture. There's not many. Frustrating, but there's not many crime scene photos. I wish I could see a picture of Robert's T shirt, but I don't have that. But we do have a picture of the towel and it doesn't look like you know, life, there's not a ton of blood on them. Yeah. Again, considering the fatal nature of the crime, the spots were small, and that was the most baffling aspect to the investigation. Where was the blood. There were no blood spatters or drips anywhere in the room or elsewhere in the house for that matter.

39:37 The exterior of the house was searched for evidence of an intruder and none was found. Drains both inside and outside the house were searched for evidence of DNA, but again none was found. There was a layer of pollen along the top of the fence that remained undisturbed, as well as cobwebs, so police were certain early on that no one had entered the house. Plants along the fence line didn't seem trampled at all, and the hose on the back patio was unrolled and looked as if it had recently been used, which raised some eyebrows because nothing else in the house was out of place, so they just seemed like the type of people like, I'm going to coil this hose back cup after I use it. A knife sat on the nightstand next to the bed. There was blood on the sides of the knife, but none on the handle. In the kitchen there was a knife block with a missing knife.

40:29 Robert's clothes were neatly folded on the desk, along with his two wallets, Nevada watch, and BlackBerry. He kept a dummy wallet in his pocket in case he was mugged. That's pretty smart. Robert was a very slight man. He was only I think he was five feet four inches. His cell phone was on the nightstand. The betting looked too perfect. The covers were barely rumpled and neatly folded back. The investigators found no evidence of an intruder. Nothing was out of place, knocked over or broken, and Dylan's room okay, this is where it gets a little gnarly. In Dylan's room, hundreds of sex toys and BDSM devices were found. The detective called it an extensive collection of shackles, whips, chains, all kinds of restraints, a device that looked like a gas mask, torture devices. An electro ejaculation machine was found, which is used in people with spinal cord injuries or other medical conditions when the person can't ejaculate on their own. Dylan owned several books about inflicting pain for pleasure. Among the sexual detritus found in Dylan's room was a boxed three piece set of Wustoff knives, a chef's knife, a meat fork, and a shorter utility knife. The utility knife was missing from the set and was never found. Drug sniffing dogs were brought in and they only found a few tablets of ecstasy, but the dog's alerted on two separate locations in the house. A search warrant was issued for the electronic devices of the

42:01 three men. Thousands of graphic, sexual and pornographic images were found many of the three men. The images revealed a shift and the power dynamic among the men in their careers. Joe was clearly the most aggressive and successful, but in sexual matters, Dylan was the dominant one. Joe and Dylan were in a dominant submissive sexual relationship. They were working on getting Victor to be more comfortable and join them. Joe was also found to have an active kink life online that I am not going to go into. So one thing that I read online was that Joe and Dylan were kind of always looking for another partner, and I assumed that Victor was okay with that. He didn't love it, but he just knew that that was something that they needed to fulfill.

42:52 Joe, Victor, and Dylan cooperated with the investigation and gave fingerprint and DNA samples, and they all hired attorneys, lot of attorneys in this story. Law enforcement thoroughly investigated the house for three weeks. None of the four roommates ever slept in the house again. Two hundred eighty samples were taken from the house, sections of walls, the staircase, and carpet, yet no usable blood evidence was found. The damage that the police did to the house was estimated at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Oh wow, And I am guessing that police do not cover that. I don't know a good question. I don't think they do. Like you, probably not, I think we should. This is probably a good place to take a quick break. Okay.

43:44 So the police collected all the samples from the house, no blood evidence. That's weird. That's so weird. There's a We're going to get to some bad police work in a minute, okay. In the days after Robert's death, family and friends surrounded with love and support and her and Robert's Oakton townhouse and helped her with funeral arrangements. Joe, Victor and Dylan even paid a visit. Robert's funeral was held on August eighth and was heavily attended. Twelve friends gave eulogies, and Joe prin Price was a pallbearer. Doctor Lois Goslinowski conducted the autopsy. She was very experienced, having conducted over two thousand autopsies. She noted three slit like cuts, two on the upper chest torso area, piercing the right lung, heart, aorta, and pericardium, and one in the abdomen. The wounds were between four and four and a half inches deep and less than an inch long. The precision of the stab wounds made it likely that Robert was very still immobilized or even paralyzed during the attack.

44:51 The cuts were nearly identical in depth, with an orientation, and all at a slight diagonal left to right. Robert had no defensive wounds on his hand or anywhere on his body. His cause of death was the stab to his heart, and the manner of death was homicide. Blood had leaked into his small intestine, indicating that Robert had not died immediately. There was hemorrhaging in his left eye, indicated that he may have been smothered. He was likely alive for about a minute after the stabbing. There was no evidence of him being restrained, and there were no skin abrasions. Was he drugged. There were several needle puncture marks on his hands, chest, feet, neck, and interior elbow, but it's not clear if these were from the attempts to establish the IV. Robert wore a mouthguard at night to prevent him from grinding his teeth, and the mouth guard was in his mouth at the time of his death. Cathy said that inserting it was always the last thing he did before he went to sleep and to me. That was a big piece of evidence, because you're not going to put a mouth guard in if you're expecting some sort of sexual encounter. Yeah, law enforcement requested a rape kippie performed on Robert after the BDSM items were found in Dylan's room. Semen was found around his penis and inside his rectum. The DNA test revealed the semen belonged to Robert. Doctor Goslinowski estimated that two thirds of Robert's blood had bled

46:21 out of his body. Where is where is the blood? The toxicology report came back completely clean for drugs and alcohol. But there are drugs that can render a person immovable, that are undetectable in an autopsy, that quickly break down into organic compounds. Where would where would someone get a drug drugs like that? Though it just seems crazy, I have one idea that I'll tell you in a little bit. Kathy One is a private, quiet, reserved person. She was devastated by Robert's death. In the beginning, she went along with the intruder theory, but as time past, she really that it just wasn't plausible. She was unable to leave her bed for five weeks.

47:05 She suffered from Bell's palsy and lupus, and from painful swelling and stiffening of her joints. She required a cane to walk her. Doctors told her the internalization of grief was affecting her health. She struggled with the lack of answers and implored law enforcement to quicken the pace of their investigation. Kathy told The Washington Post in an email, quote, it hurts me a great deal to think that whoever took Robert's life is probably going on with life as usual while I'm struggling to close an enormous, gaping wound and move on. I can't help but shake my head at the picture of incredible unfairness. I mean, it is so unfair. After Robert's death, she struggled for years with grief and oppression. She attended counseling, but was only able to work part time.

47:52 Kathy was unable to return to the townhouse she shared with Robert and stayed with friends for the next seven months. Unpaid bills mounted, but she didn't care whether the bank foreclosed, she said, quote. My accomplishment of the day was getting out of bed, taking a shower, and making it to the breakfast table. The mere act of existing was almost unbearable. I was convinced I would never know happiness again. And that's tough. I know, she's such a sweet lady. Eventually, she moved back to her home in Oakden and adopted as she but you knew, named Buddy. My dogs make everything better. Yeah. Kathy was frustrated by law enforcement's inability to charge anyone with her husband's murder. In twenty ten, Kathy told The Washington Post Henry Jaffy, I just I loved being his wife. On the night of August second, a neighbor recalled hearing a scream sometime while they were watching the late news between eleven and eleven thirty. A nine one one call didn't happen until eleven forty nine. Two emails were found on Robert's phone in his draft file from eleven oh eight that leaves forty one mysterious minutes. Two weeks after Robert's murder, cadaver dogs were brought into the house. Investigators didn't believe Robert had died in the bedroom because there was no till there was little to no blood evidence. The dogs were brought in to see if Robert could have been killed in a different area of the house. They alerted on two spots, the lint trap of the dryer and a drain on the patio. Ashley's reagent was

49:27 used in the house. Ashley's reagent is used to find blood that has been cleaned up. Detectives were over zealous and applied the reagent everywhere, sure they were going to find blood. However, they failed to follow the directions for the chemicals application. It was applied to vertical services, which causes the reagent to drip and obscure blood stains. Any blood evidence was thrown out. To make matters worse, Ashley's reagent stained every surface on the house that it was sprayed on. Oh boy, was like I think despite misusing Ashley's free agent, there was some blood. I think it was a very little book. They did find some they you know, they had to throw it out.

50:14 The supposed murder weapon was a steak knife that came out of the knife block that was on the kitchen counter. It was five and a half inches long. Here's a little clip talking about it. Say your DNA is the only DNA is on that? Okay, who would you do that? I mean, who would you think I don't know. I don't know how the whole DNA thing works. But it's a kitchen knife, firehouse, you know, I use it, uses it, right, But you're saying that somebody else would use it. Someone that person DNA would be on a knife, because when you hold it that knife like this and you're going down there's somebody's chest, you're applying more pressure, more skin sale, or you were going to find somebody else's DNA. So if you want to find some okay, good you will. So unless they're wearing a glove. So what happens if I find just your DNA on that night? It's not possible because unless the person had a glove on it, and you know better what to ask, I'm asking you what happened if I just find your DNA on a night I don't know. If it's possible for my DNA to get on it for me picking it up, then you can find my DNA on it, right, So therefore, if because it is kind of impossible for it to be on it if you just picking it up, Okay, So if I find you, if I find your DNA on it and your DNA is all over that night, but it's not if you can't get it on there from just picking up the knife, then you won't find it. That was Joe by the way.

51:47 Okay, So the knife was sent to a lab for analysis and no DNA belonging to anyone in the house was found, which I thought was kind of interesting. So why was the cop so focused on that? Well, that was the initial knight of the interrogation, so they didn't know what was going to come out of the lab. White fibers, along with Robert's chest hairs, clung to the knife. The white fibers were consistent with the towel that was found in the bedroom. There was one fat globule adhering to the knife. A slight impression from the towel was found on the knife, as if someone had pressed the bloody towel to the knife, like transferring blood to the knife, so the knife looked like it had been used. Robert was wearing a gray William and Mary t shirt at the time of his death, and there were three cuts in the shirt from the stabbing, but no gray fibers were found on the knife. Those findings, in addition to the depth of the stab wounds, called into question whether the knife in the bedroom was the actual murder weapon and brought investigators back to the missing knife from Dylan's room, But where did it go? Every investigation has a few bumps, but the investigation into Robert's death had a few critical errors that likely prevented justice.

53:04 Robert's BlackBerry was lost. The District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department had handed over the BlackBerry to secret Service to be imaged, and it was returned to Radio Free Asia erased. The two drafted emails from the night of August second were lost, which could have helped better establish the timeline. One email was to Kathy and the other was to a friend that Robert was planning to have lunch with the next day, but we don't know the contents of those emails. Several hours of the suspects interrogations were also lost. Critical drug tests were not done on Robert's blood, and now not enough blood remains to do any more testing. There's only three cubic centimeters left, and I'm guessing they're keeping that in case they needed for any new evidence they might pop up. The dryer where this scent dog had alerted wasn't investigated further. I just want to remind you of the timeline really quick. So Robert arrived at the house at ten thirty and they just chatted briefly. They went to bed at ten forty five.

54:09 Robert. If the emails were sent by Robert, that's kind of been in question as to whether someone else could have sent them, as you know, sort of a alibi that Robert was still awake. Those were sent at eleven oh eight. Victor called nine to one one at eleven forty nine, So somebody sometime between eleven eight and eleven forty nine was when Robert was stabbed. The neighbors heard the scream. They couldn't pinpoint it anymore to oh, we heard it while we were watching the news. It was somewhere between eleven and eleven thirty. The EMTs arrived at eleven fifty five, and Robert was declared that at twelve twenty four. And I should mention to the scream.

54:51 If the neighbors heard the scream, it could have been when Victor walked into the room, because, like Joe said, he was just it sounds like he was hysterically screaming. Joe's younger brother, Michael, was once a suspect. He was studying phlebotomy and had access to a paralytic drug. And Michael had a history, a long history of drug and alcohol abuse. Joe had defended him many times. Michael had a key to Joe's house and knew his way around the house. The night of the murder was the only night that Michael missed his class. However, his phone didn't ping at fifteen oh nine Swan Street, and he had an alibi, But those two things don't really mean It left his phone somewhere else, right, and his alibi was his partner, But he was never considered a serious suspect. Two months after the murder, when the house was vacant, Michael was reported for burglarizing the house on Swan Street and stealing flat screen TVs and other items of value. The stolen items were found at a local pawn shop. Michael was never charged with any crime. However, Okay, so a year has gone on and there's no no arrests, Like, that's just maddening. Yeah, after a year without an arrest, Kathy One was frustrated by the lack of movement in Robert's case. Robert's former law practice, Covington and Berling, treated her like family.

56:10 Eric Holder was the head of the firm before becoming US Attorney General in two thousand and nine. He had held Robert in the highest regard and personally saw to his case hold her and Kathy. Held a press conference and he said, quote, for those in fifteen oh nine Swan Street, where Robert was killed, you need to truly ask yourselves. Truly, truly ask yourselves. Have I provided the police with all the information that might be relevant to the investigation of this crime. Only you, your conscience, and your God know the answer to that question. But that is the question you must ask yourselves. If you care about Robert, if you truly care about this family, if you care about Kathy, come forward and share all of the information you have end quote. And no one came forward. Isn't that impressive though?

56:59 That Eric Holder, Yeah, is Kathy's attorney. It is more than two years after Robert's death, in hopes he would turn on Joe and Victor, Dylan Ward was arrested in Florida. He was held in custody for more than a month and never changed his story. Joe and Victor were given an opportunity by prosecutors to cooperate. They were told they'd be taken into custody if they didn't reveal what really happened. On August second, neither man gave investigators what they were looking for, and they were arrested. The trio were indicted with obstruction of justice conspiracy to obstruct justice in tampering with evidence on November nineteenth, two thousand and eight, but there were no murder charges. Was Dylan still with Joe and Victor at this point, Yeah, there was still very much a family at that point. The arrest affidavit rocked the friends and family of Robert Hard when they realized Joe, Dylan, and Victor were likely active participants in Robert's death, not survivors of a murderous intruder. The affidavit claimed that Joe, Victor, and Dylan tampered with a crime scene by replacing the murder weapon with the knife from the knife block, and that they had cleaned blood from Robert and transferred blood onto the planted knife. The affidavit also claimed they lied to law enforcement and suggested that Robert Juan had been injected with a paralytic drug, sexually assaulted, smothered, and then stabbed. The affidavit completely dismissed the theory that Robert could have been killed by an intruder. A week

58:31 later, Kathy filed a twenty million dollar civil lawsuit against Joe, Victor, and Dylan for the participation and the wrongful death of Robert. The lawsuit alleges quote the evidence suggests that rather than administering aid to Robert Juan or making a prompt report to authorities, the defendants spent the crucial minutes after the stabbing coordinating their stories, altering and orchestrating the crime scene, and destroying evidence. The defendants are parties to an ongoing conspiracy that was conceived no later than the night of Robert Want's murder, went into effect on that night and continues to this day. End to quote, they all pleaded not guilty and hired high profile defense attorneys. Joe hired powerhouse attorney Bernie Grimm. They were released on bail but required to wear inkle monitors. Judge Lynn Leebowitz presided over the trial.

59:28 She didn't allow Dylan's sex toys, restraints or devices into evidence or the semen found on Robert, despite their being clear evidence of Robert being sexually assaulted. The defendants requested a bench trial, and they feared an impartial jury was impossible. The prosecution didn't contest it, which they had a right to do. So can you believe that she didn't let that evidence in? Why do you say there was clear evidence of Robert being sexually assaulted though? Well, in my opinion, just the fact that he had like how else did he have semen all over him? And that's where that machine came into play. I believe, I believe there was some sort of sexual encounter or assault I should say, not encounter, and that's why he had his own semen all over him. Okay, Yeah, that does seem strange that she didn't allow that into evidence. Yeah. The trial began on May seventeenth and lasted until June twenty fifth, twenty ten. If convicted, Joe, Victor and Dylan faced up to thirty eight years in prison. The prosecution called thirty witnesses and the defense only called eight witnesses. Doctor Henry Lee, the much acclaimed forensic pathologist and often expert witness, testified that the lack of blood at the scene was due to blood remaining inside Robert's body cavity due to his lack of movement and the small size of the wounds. He was testifying for the defense. Yes, yeah, I'm not buying it either. Doctor Lee incidentally has been recently accused of fabricating evidence in a nineteen eighty five murdered that sent two man men

1:01:01 to jail. I was gonna say, I seem to recall his star falling producing. Some people are kind of questioning a lot of his work. He's eighty four now too, not that an eighty four year old can't still be working. But Dylan's mother testified that she had sent the wust Hof knife kit to Dylan as a gift, and she kept the missing knife for herself. I'm gonna do that with her suspresience this year. There's a gift for you. I'm having to take half of that. She kept the missing knife for herself, although she was not able to reproduce the knife, The defense claimed. A neighbor reported the lid to their child's sandbox was caved in the day after the murder, as if someone used it to like catapult himself over the over the fence. Okay, but on the other side of the fence is like a you would go down into a steep brick staircase, so that didn't seem like it was. Yeah, they were just trying to throw any kind of doubt that they could though exactly, and the three defendants did not testify.

1:02:09 It took Judge Leibowitz an hour to read her thirty eight page verdict, and I am going to read that to you now. She made it clear that she strongly believed that it's better for a guilty man to walk free rather than to have an innocent man go to jail. She thought the men were responsible for Robert's death and were withholding information, but she did not think the prosecution proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt, and she found all three men not guilty, which interesting, really frustrating. And she also said that she did not buy the knife evidence. Actually, she thought the knife from the kitchen was the actual murder weapon because of the fat globule on it, which I did question that too. Yeah, I don't know how they would have been able to transfer that. It is super suspicious, so that Dylan has this missing knife. Yeah. Kathy's twenty million dollar wrongful death lawsuit accused Joe, Victor and Dylan of not securing medical attention sooner for Robert. Kathy said the lawsuit wasn't about the money, but holding someone accountable for her husband's death.

1:03:16 The case was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. After the trio refused to answer questions during their depositions, they pleaded the fifth Kathy was stunned and frustrated by the men's decision to invoke the fifth during their depositions. She felt she had no other choice but to settle the lawsuit. She really didn't want to, but she was just like, it's not going to go anywhere. Yeah, that's too bad. So frustrating, she told the Washington Post quote. They can rot from the inside out from all the secrets they chose to keep. That's their choice. I chose to move on. Half of the settlement went to a charitable trust set up in Robert's name, and the other half to a law clinic at the University of Pennsylvania Law School to offer legal li to inner city residents. One of the things that hurt Kathy most was that people assumed that Robert had been killed in a sex game gone wrong. People would avoid her or not look her in the eye. She told the Washington Post quote. It was an assumption by people who did not know Robert at all. He was an open book and he and I had a very deep understanding and trust of each other. People can continue to choose to believe what they want. I have moved on. Kathy has remarried and lives in Washington, d C. And still works as an attorney. A year after Robert's murder, the house on Swan Street was sold for one point five million dollars. Joe and Victor moved to Miami Shores, Florida, hiding away living a quiet, private life, both still working in their chosen careers.

1:04:45 Joe changed his name and goes by Joe Anderson now, which is like, if everyone knows you go by Joe Anderson, why to change the name. That's a pretty common name, though hard to find. It's funny though. Yeah, he and Victor remain a couple. Joe had a business distributing porn. Sure if it's if it still exists or not, but what a way to stay under the radar, Joe. Yeah, Dylan is no longer a member of the family. Immediately after the acquittal, he absconded to Thailand and attended a school to become a pilates instructor. Today he works as a pilates instructor and massage therapist in the Miami area, and he is married to someone different. He changed his name and goes by Dylan Thomas. So try and search for Dylan Thomas and Joey Anderson and see how many hits you get.

1:05:30 Yeah, so Dylan, doesn't he sound just like kind of like a spoiled rich guy, Like I think his parents had money, because you know, he just kind of flitted around and did a lot of different careers. In cases like Robert Wan, it's easy to get caught up in the mystery and intrigue, but we must never forget that a wonderful man lost his life and his friends and family bear the burden of his grieve forever. Yeah, it's so sad. It seems like such a great guy, and Kathy seems like a great gal. I held it together, but I'm breaking a little bit. But yeah, it just sounds like a fabulous man. And you know things, I have no doubt. Yeah, no justice, no justice.

1:06:11 I mean maybe someday something will happen. Yeah, seems hard to imagine at this point that something's going to break in the case one thing that is really a head scratch is there's so many things in this case head scratchers, but there's absolutely no motive. I mean, I was really well loved by everyone, and I don't think whatever happened Joe, Dylan and Hylaan Joe Victor and Dylan had no intent on him dying. Yeah, Robert's sexuality has been greatly speculated on, which I think is so disrespectful to his wife and his family. Yeah, he supported the gay community, but he was never known to have had any yeah relationship, and he and Joe had been friends for a long time, so it's really not there's nothing weird about going and staying at a friend's house or whatever just because that friend gay and you're not right, it was just and there's just the lack of blood evidence is mad.

1:07:05 Yeah, that's just so baffling. You said something about the Kidaver dogs. They hit on like a spot on the patio, like a drain on the patio. That's what we need to talk about, is like what could have happened? What do you think could have happened? I am I have no idea. I really can't even imagine, Like I can't imagine there's no motive to kill him, like you said, if they were playing some sort of weird game or something, I just can't even imagine what that would be like. So every time I've heard this case, people talk about like, well, he came into the house at ten thirty. They didn't drink but and he was really the only talked for like fifteen to twenty minutes. Dylan gave him a glass of water. Dylan's like, oh, here's a glass of water. I'm wondering how long it takes for paralytics to work. If there could have been something in his water. Yeah. Maybe. People also talk about the needle pricks, but and spurt, I don't know anything opinion.

1:08:02 I think those were probably from the I because they they had said that, you know, he was already he had already probably been dead for quite a while when they were trying to establish an IVY line. So of course they weren't going to be able to get it right. But they tried in many different locations, and one of them was like the elbow, the neck. I think and probably I know people are gonna yell at me for this, but like between your toes, I think you can get one and like behind your So those are the locations where the pin pricks, the needle pricks were, So I think that's what those were. But people have also talked about maybe he was given ketamine in his water because ketamine like can also produce paralysis.

1:08:43 I don't know if it was Dylan and Joe or just Dylan or just Joe. I really I just had like a little bit of soft spot for Victor. He just seems yeah, I mean it's very I don't think that he knew what was happening. Yeah, it sure doesn't seem like it, but you know, I know you can only people can can be good actors. But just his nine when one call and interrogation, I just it just seems very authentic. It did, and who knows what he knows. Now I believe that he and Joe are still together. And I don't know if I could sleep next to someone yeah every night if I doubted no innocence. So Joe and Dylan were kind of known to always be looking for like a new adventure or a new sexual partner. So I believe it's possible that the two of them could have done something together because remember Victor took a sleeping pill, yeah, and he could have been out cold, although he said he remembered waking up with Joe next to him, so maybe the encounter somehow went wrong he would be stabbed. I can't either. I mean, the only thing I could think of is if they drugged him for some whatever reason, and like maybe he died from the drugs or something and then they stabbed him.

1:09:56 But the autopsy showed that he died from the stab wounds though, right, maybe he wasn't conscious and they got scared. Yeah. Maybe It's really frustrating because if we don't we just don't know how the answer. Yeah, and the lack of the blood, it's just it's so baffling to me. That's okay, that's one thing that we needed to talk about. I think that they took Robert into the shower and they cleaned off his wounds, because the wounds really and I don't know if that part was planned, but the wounds really small enough. I'm sure they bled profusely, but once you know, he passed, they were able to clean him up. Right. Then they took the bedding and the towels and even Robert's clothing and they took them off to the patio and they hose them off, okay, and then they must have dried them in the dryer, which again is why the dog alerted on the dryer. And then they redressed Robert, remade the bed, and then they called nine one one. I think that it was probably Joe and Dylan were in it together. Yeah, that seems like the most plausible, or it could have been Ellan on his own. I don't know. I also kind of think that I didn't play any of Dylan's interrogation. He was His interrogation was similar to Victor's, where he didn't say a whole lot he was he was emotional. So one other thing that I wanted to mention was that Sarah Morgan, the fourth roommate, she really she was talked to, but she wasn't really investigated. So Sarah wasn't just her roommate. She was

1:11:28 actually very close friends with the three men. She and Victor were especially close, and it was said that Sarah was kind of like Victor's eyes and ears when he wasn't in the house. And I think that at at one point Dylan had said to someone that he was going to replace Victor and Sarah. She was keeping an eye outing, an eye out, and so Victor came home that afternoon from Denver, and I think his work trip was cut short, So you have to ask yourself why did he come home early. Sarah was away that night, and the way I understand it is she Joe said in his interrogation, Oh, sometimes she spent the night away with other friends.

1:12:16 No, she didn't. That was the first time she had ever been away. That's interesting. So that was kind of interesting too. But if they told her to go like, I don't think she was complicit. I don't think she knew what was going to happen, right, I'm just wondering if she was questioned, did she give any explanation why. I don't have any information about Sarah's questioning, but there does seem like there was just kind of this dynamic, an unhealthy dynamic between the three men, and maybe Dylan was well. Obviously Dylan was jockeying for Victor's position. Right Joe's brother, Michael. We mentioned him and how he had a history of drug abuse, and Joe bailed him out a lot. I think I'm not sure if we made this clear, but he was very good at what he did. He was a very good talker, He was a very good lawyer, and he defended his brother many times, so his brother owed him. So it's possible.

1:13:11 I think that Michael could have come and taken the murder weapon, bloody towels that they used for cleaning, and he could have maybe taken them away from the house. I should mention too, that the men's cars were searched, so like, you know, you have to wonder, like where did they hide, right, because obviously they cleaned the house up with something, So either Michael could have come and gotten it or I don't know where else I could have gone. Yeah, and he said Michael was a phlebotomist, right right, and that's yeah, they could have gotten a drug from him. Yeah, I just see. Yeah, I don't know. The whole thing with the blood and everything just makes me wonder if there's some connection there with him being a phlebotomist also. But it's very baffling. It's very baffling.

1:13:55 This case could be my Roman umpire. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to give it up. Yeah. I use some fabulous sources that I'd like to mention. There is a blog called who Killed Robert wand dot com. It was made by four men. It's a podcaster's dream or an investigator's dream, has like literally everything you could want, like a treasure trove of information, and they did a fabulous job. David Greer, Craig Ronstein, his partner, Doug Johnson, and Michael Kremen. Sadly the latter two are now deceased, but it's just a really great source and they're really great funny guys. I watched like a two hour YouTube from Judy Judy the YouTube Lawyer AA Legal AA Legal Focus. The three of them had a really great conversation that some of the theory that they talked about, all the theories, and it was really I will link to that and you should if you're not able to give this case up like me, you would enjoy that conversation.

1:15:00 And there's also a Peacock, a two part Peacock documentary that I think I'm gonna I think you would enjoy. I would watch it again. It was really well done. Yeah, I would like to say it. I'm who killed Robert One, That's what it's called. And again it's on Peacock and we have a lot of streaming services and we probably don't need all of them, but Peacock for me is just I won't give up Peacock. I can give up Netflix, PERI. It's funny we subscribe to it like a few years ago when the Olympics were going on, and it's actually, yeah, it's been pretty good well for me, especially with being a Bravo holic. So yeah, I will not give up Peacock anytime soon. But they do do a nice job. It's great for dateline too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So that is the horrible story of Robert One, the horribly sad story of Robert One. Yeah, really sad. Great job telling it, man. Definitely you weren't lying when you said it was one of the most baffling cases up front. I mean, it really seems like at least and Joe had something to do with it, but it just is very confusing what actually happened. Yeah. The only way we're ever going to know what happened is if one of the men have a moment of good conscience and come forward and yeah and say you know what their involvement was. Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's going to happen, and doesn't seem like there's ever going to be justice for Robert. Well, rest in peace, Robert.

1:16:26 Yeah again, just sounds like a really lovely man. And it's so, what's your birthday week? What are we going to do for your birthday? Well, we're well, we're going to Toronto for Thanksgiving. So I feel like that's sort of what already happened. So that's past, I know, but we're about to do that. That is part of your birthday. Yeah, I feel like that's kind of my birthday present. Yeah, So I guess I just hope that we have a nice time as a family and I have some nice cherry chip cake. Yeah. I make a pretty darn good homemade cake, but you ever the darn box of cherry. It's one of the sentimental things more than anything, just you know, growing up, that's what my mom always made me on my birthday and I love it.

1:17:09 Well, they are good. It is, it is. It is a pretty yummy cake. I wanted to mention to a lot of people have recommended cases and we are kind of working through them. But I'm like a raccoon and I see a shiny other case and then I get distracted. But a lot of sometimes the case recommendations there's just not enough. We just can't find enough information to do a whole episode on it, so that is Problemly, if you've recommended a case and we haven't done it, it might be because we just can't find enough and we don't it. We don't have like a team of researchers, you know, going out and doing foyer requests and stuff like that. We basically rely on what's out there, you know, what reporters have dug up and things like that, and court by No, Yeah, it's just uh, just mom and dad running the show and doing our do our best. We are doing our vast wanted to mention too that your messages, your emails, your dms are just so kind, thoughtful and really keep us motivated and we're so grateful for that. We are so so much you just really you guys are so generous and we really appreciate it. The review like we read the reviews and just humbled and impostor impostor syndrome is real here for us. But we can't thank you enough. Yeah, thank you so much. So please like, rate review and subscribe, follow us on social media, or send us an email if you're not on social media Lovemrykill

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