The Piketon Massacre - Part 1

WEBVTT

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Hi. I am Rich and I'm
Tina. And if there's one thing we've

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learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your

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husband, and some days you'll feel
like killing your wife. Welcome to love,

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Mary kill Eightina. Hey, Rich, how are you? I'm great?

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How are you? I'm good?
But you sounded really, really serious

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when you said some days you'll feel
like killing your husband. I was a

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little worried. I really haven't.
We haven't seen each other today yet.

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It's like four o'clock. And yeah, I was out running errands and you

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were. I didn't even know you
were out. I was heads down working.

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I can't believe like I was gone
for like four hours and you didn't

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notice I was missing. You didn't
want to say I wonder where my beautiful

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wife is. I didn't. I
was so focused on my work. Oh

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all right, Well, so here
I am. I just want to issue

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you an apology up front for the
snack so many things, the snack that

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I'm about to serve. Well,
I know you're going to serve me.

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And yesterday we recorded our Patreon episode
and I made you you rate it ten

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out of ten cookies. I was
feeling you're not going to rate this snack

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ten out of ten, but maybe
I'm going to love it. I don't

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know. Maybe. So the case
that we're going to present today is based

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in southern Ohio, and so when
I was thinking about what kind of snack

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should I serve, the first thing
that, of course came to mind was

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Skyline chili, right, I mean
what I have never had of. Didn't

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we stop at the Skyline once on
our way? I don't think we did.

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It's possible, I just don't remember
it. Well. I used to

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live in Dayton, Ohio, and
I would go there for lunch at least

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like one day a week. So
if you're like me and you're not great

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at geography, where we live in
the an Arbor Michigan area, Ohio is

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only yeah, twenty minutes away to
the Ohio border. But you're talking about

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southern Ohio, which, right,
yeah, Skyline Chili is from. I

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think Cincinnati is where it originated,
but anywhere in southern Ohio. But so

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when I thought of Skyline chili,
I thought, well, maybe I could

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find a copycat recipe or something,
And then I discovered that Skyline like making

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a pot of chili. But then
I discovered that Skyline has a frozen line

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of food, so I bought a
ever seen it frozen before? I've seen

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it in the can. Yeah.
Well here's the thing. So we've talked

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about Skyline chili before. Yeah,
I'm sure we have. So the picture

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on the front of the frozen food
box looks pretty pretty amazing, I mean,

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okay, but the reality is not
quite as amazing. Did you put

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a ton of cheese on top?
I did put a ton of cheese on

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it, and it does not look
very appetizing. We're not people that eat

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a ton of frozen entrees. We're
not all right. Do you want to

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take a break and try it?
Let's try it? Well, So,

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I think that was the worst back
since I don't remember what the chip was.

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You brought home some sort of chip. Was a chicken chip or from

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Europe? Yeahs roasted chicken? Yeah
yeah. I spit that out, and

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I spit out the chili. No, thank you. I was not a

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big fan of it either. I
do. Actually, I like Skyline chili

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at the restaurant. I mean,
it's not the best thing in the world,

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but you know, it's pretty good. But this was Yeah, thumbs

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down. There's like cinnamon in it. I know. Yeah, it was

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pretty strange cinnamon and chili. I
don't mean. Maybe you could put a

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little in, but that was overpowering
with cinnamon. So yeah, so what

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else did you bring me? You
have to wait for a part two?

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What else are you? What are
you going to rate that? We're doing

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a rating system now, so I'm
going to rate it a point five.

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Yeah, what are you going to
read it? I'll give it a one

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point seven. That's pretty high.
Dinner then, I don't think so.

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All right, Well, let's carry
on today. We're going to tell you

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the story of the Pike County Massacre
also known as the piked In Massacre,

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also known as the Rodent Family massacre. This was a request from our listener

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Allison. So thank you Allison for
sending this along. Really interesting case.

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I'm just gonna say up front,
there are a lot of people in this

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case. There are a lot of
names, a lot of relationships to keep

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straight. So I will try my
best to make it clear, but please

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just stop me and ask a question
if I if you're confused, because it's

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easy to get lost. Around seven
thirty am on Friday morning, April twenty

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second, twenty sixteen, Bobby Joe
Manly stopped by her ex brother in law's

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house in the small village of Piked
in, Ohio to feed his dog's chickens

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and his hog. Bobby Joe's sister, Dana, was divorced from Chris Rodin

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Senior, but the two had remained
close, living down the road from each

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other. Bobby Joe, who also
lived nearby, remained friends with Chris as

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well. Chris helped her out while
she was out of work, including paying

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her to feed his animals. On
this particular morning, though, Bobby Joe

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came upon a horrific scene. There
was blood all over the house and she

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found Chris and his cousin Gary lying
in the house covered in blood. Dead.

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She called nine one one at seven
forty nine AM. Yeah, yeah,

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we walked to love Hokay, had
how head? Okay? Okay,

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old y, yes man, you
gotta come here. Going on, Let's

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blo all over the house. Okay, my brother, I think the hell

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out of them. Okay, we'll
just blood all dam can be coming with

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counting that dead? Is it count
It's Mike County, you know that?

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Okay, Okay, I needed to
get out of the house. Then drive

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over there. That's what it is. Okay, what's your name? My

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bommy, mommy, what are your
brother in law name? What's your brother

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in law's name? You know?
Dam Yeah, what's the name? Ramp

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and Gary wrote that and it looks
like the dad. Do you think they're

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both dead? I think to say
that. Look, I don't have the

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fock out of them. Okay,
is there anybody else in the house?

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Noah, Okay, was on here, but I haven't that fun in and

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letting's on the floor, Bobby,
and you can get out of the house.

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Yeah, okay, stay out of
the house. Don't let anybody go

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there. Okay, yeah, all
right, we don't get any more theoray,

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okay, I thank you Mom.
Yeah, sor Bobby that that's a

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horrible scene to walk into. Yeah, I'm sorry. The sound quality is

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not great on that clip, but
yeah, I thought it was interesting just

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to hear how how frantic and upset
she was, as you could well imagine.

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While waiting for the police to arrive, Bobby Joe walked next door to

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where her nephew, Frankie Rodin,
who is Chris and Dana's twenty year old

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son lived with his fiance, Hannah
Gilly, along with frank Thinkie's three year

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old son Brantley, and the couple
six month old baby boy, Ruger.

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Bobby jo knocked on the door and
Brantley opened it. He had blood all

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over him, but he appeared unharmed
physically. He said his dad was quote

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playing zombie unquote in the bedroom.
Bobby Joe made her way to the bedroom

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where she found another terrible scene,
Frankie and Hannah lying dead in their bed,

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covered in blood, with six month
old Ruger, physically unharmed lying between

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them, also covered in blood.
Bobby, I'm sorry. We have four

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people that have been murdered Oway.
So far, we have four victims.

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Yeah. Bobby Joe then called her
brother James in hysterics and told him what

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she had discovered. He lived near
their sister Dana, so he went over

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to check on her and the kids. He entered the house and found two

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more bodies, Dana and her nineteen
year old daughter, Hannah May Rodin.

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Hannah May had just had a baby, girl, Kylie May, five days

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earlier. The newborn was lying unharmed
next to her mother. A third body

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was eventually found at this crime scene
sixteen year old Chris Rodin Junior, which

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was Chris Senior and Dana's youngest child. Words spread quickly in the small town,

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and the local news picked up on
the story of the seven deaths at

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three locations along Union Hill Road.
Watching the news that afternoon, Chris Senior's

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cousin, Donald Stone, decided to
go check on Kenneth Rodin, Chris Senior's

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brother. He had tried reaching Kenneth
after hearing about the murders, but didn't

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get an answer. He arrived at
Kenneth's home to find his cousin dead,

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the eighth and final victim discovered that
day. Donald called nine one one at

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one twenty six pm on ahead,
yeah, yeah, I need a baby.

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Had came out to nine blackboard.
Okay, uh, it's all that

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stuff. It's on the knees.
I just don just tell my cousin with

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a games jot, Wayne, okay, your life No, okay, here

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it's placed the head line out.
I don't know what he had that is.

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They don't you don't have a ball, you don't have a bomb.

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Okay. I'll be staying out by
the very way on Donald saying Donald Donald

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thin down, Yeah, I'm a
cousin. What do you mean? Yeah,

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okay, out of the house.
I'm I'm out of the house right

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now. I just went in hold
night and take right now and all the

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pay he had a game, got
wings. Okay, Okay, we're gonna

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get that. Okay, all right, Mark. Eight bodies, all from

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the same family, at four crime
scenes, all shot and killed the same

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night in cold blood execution style.
Most of them shot multiple times, thirty

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two gunshot wounds altogether, and three
young children left alive at the crime scenes.

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It's just unbelievable. I'm going to
summarize the eight victims of their names,

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ages, and relationships. We will
post a picture of all of them

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on our social media to help you
keep it straight. But the victims were

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Chris Roden Senior, who is forty, and his cousin Gary Roden thirty eight,

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found at crime scene number one.
Chris and Dana's son Frankie Rodin twenty

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and his fiance Hannah Gilly, also
twenty. Found at crime scene number two.

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Chris's ex wife, Dana Roden thirty
seven, and their other two kids,

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nineteen year old Hannah May and sixteen
year old Chris Junior, found at

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crime scene number three, and then
Chris Senior's brother, Kenneth Roden forty four,

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found at crime scene number four.
It would be the second largest mass

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shooting in the US during twenty sixteen, second only to the Pulse nightclub shooting

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that would occur a couple months later. It would become the largest most complicated

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criminal investigation in Ohio's history, involving
the Pike County Sheriff's Department, the Ohio

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Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the FBI, and the DEA. The question on

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everyone's mind, who would do such
a thing, mercilessly killing an entire family

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in cold blood. Piked In,
Ohio is a small rural village of twenty

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one hundred people located in Pike County. It's about twenty five miles north of

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the Kentucky border, seventy miles south
of Columbus, and ninety miles east of

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Cincinnati. If you hop on US
twenty three south from ann Arbor, it

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will take you directly to piked In
in about four and a half hours.

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In the heart of Ohio's Appalachian County. Pike County has an unemployment rate about

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twice that of the country. As
a whole, and twenty four percent of

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its residents are currently living below the
poverty line. Piked In is home to

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one of only three gaseous diffusion plants
which produce in enrich uranium as fuel for

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nuclear power reactors. While the county
is not wealthy, the people of piked

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In are known to help each other. It's a close knit community where everyone

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knows everyone else's business. A lot
of the residents refer to themselves as hillbilly's,

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and while many people use the term
hillbilly in a derogatory way, it's

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a point of pride for those who
use the word to describe themselves. To

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them it refers to the fact that
they are simple, hard working folk who

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respect nature, love their families,
and take care of each other. The

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Rodent family had lived in piked In
for generations. Dana Manly met Chris Rodin

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when she was in high school.
He was almost three years older than her,

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and it was love at first sight. Dana and Chris married and had

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three children together. Clarence, better
known as Frankie, was born in nineteen

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ninety five, Hannah May was born
in nineteen ninety seven, and then Chris

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Junior born in nineteen ninety nine.
Dana and Chris were married for twenty two

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years before they decided to call it
quits, but they remained close even after

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their divorce. Chris bought Dana house
just two miles down Union Hill Road so

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they could work together to raise their
children. Chris was known as a hard

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working family man who would do anything
for anybody, no questions asked. He

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lived in a mobile home on his
property with cars all over the yard that

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he would work on. Chris was
a skilled craftsman and carpenter who would build

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amazing and intricate decks for people.
He also worked at a local lumber company

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and did seasonal work at Big Bear
Lake Family Resort in Lucasville, Ohio.

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Chris's brother, Kenneth, was a
divorced father of four and grandfather of four.

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He worked at US Utility in Columbus
and also at the lumber company with

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his brother. Chris's cousin, Gary
was more like a brother to him than

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a cousin. Gary had struggled with
drug and alcohol addiction and would often stay

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with Chris, especially when he was
trying to sober up. Dana was a

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nurse at an assisted living community.
She had a big, infectious laugh.

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She was outgoing, lots of fun, and also had a big heart.

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Her world revolved around her kids and
grandkids. She talked about them all the

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time at work. A coworker set
of Dana quote she had a heart of

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gold and was extremely giving and excellent
at what she did. It was nothing

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for her to bring in food for
all the staff that was working, or

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to bring in gifts unquote. Clarence
Frankie Rodin was the oldest child of Chris

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Senior and Dana. He loved participating
in demolition derbies. He would often post

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photos of his prized Ford Crown Victoria, which everyone in the derby circuit was

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envious of. Frankie and his little
brother Chris, spent most of their time

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building and rebuilding cars to compete in
demolition derbies around Ohio. Can I ask

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a question about demolition derbys? Okay, I thought you just took it to

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one demolition derby and the car was
done. Is that not the case?

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I think you. I think you
probably have to rebuild and there's probably parts

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that are done and you know,
put up. I even not an expert

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in demolition derbies, but that's just
my guess my only frame of reference is

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happy Days, Happy Days. Frankie
was engaged to marry Hannah Gilly, who

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was twenty at the time of the
murders. Hannah was on homecoming court in

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high school and had plans to attend
college, get a degree in business,

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and open a daycare. She and
Frankie had a baby boy, Ruger,

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six months before the murders. Frankie
also had a three year old boy,

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Brantley, from a previous relationship.
He and Hannah were excited about their upcoming

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marriage and had already decided they wanted
to have lots of kids together. The

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other Hannah in our story, Hannah
May Rodin was the middle child of Chrissine,

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and Dana will refer to her as
Hannah May to differentiate between her and

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Hannah Gilly. Hannah Mae was nineteen
when she was killed. She was funny,

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kind and outgoing. She could talk
to anyone. Hannah May worked as

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a nurse's aide at a nursing home. She had a two and a half

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year old girl, Sophia, who
was with her dad, a local guy

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named Jake Wagner, with whom she
shared custody. When the murders took place.

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She also had a five day old
baby girl named Kylie, who was

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with her when she was shot and
killed. We'll talk more about Hannah Mae

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and her kids later, but at
the time of the killings, it wasn't

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known who Kylie's father was. There
were three different guys that she had been

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with who potentially could have been the
father. Last, but not least,

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Chris Junior was sixteen and a freshman
in high school when he was killed.

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He was a happy, go lucky
teenager with a mischievous side. He had

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recently gotten his driver's license, and
he loved helping his older brother Frankie with

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his demolition derby cars, and he
also worked in the summer with his dad

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at Big Bear Lake family resort.
As the police examined the four grisly crime

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scenes, it quickly became clear that
these were targeted killings. Most of the

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victims were shot at point blank range
while they were sleeping. Chris Senior was

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the only one who had appeared to
have been conscious and aware of what was

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happening. He had nine gunshot wounds
altogether to his head, torso in arms.

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One shot was to his forearm,
indicating that he had probably raised his

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hands in self defense. Also,
there were wood fragments found on Chris's body,

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indicating that he may have been shot
outside and then dragged through the house.

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The rest of the victims were shot
only in the head, most of

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them multiple times. Gary was shot
twice in the head and once in the

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face. One of the shots must
have been taken with the muzzle right against

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his temple, as shown by the
muzzle stain. Frankie was shot three times

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in the head, Hannah Gilly was
shot five times in the head, Dana

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was shot three times in the right
side of her head and once under her

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chin. Hannah May was shot twice
in the head, and Chris Junior was

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shot four times in the head,
so these must have been all close from

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Scuriti said that the only person who
had been shot only once was Kenneth,

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who had one bullet wound through his
eye. Curiously, his body was found

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with dollar bills scattered all around it, leading people to speculate whether the killings

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were somehow financially motivated. There was
very little evidence left with the crime scenes

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00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.519
the killer or killers had been methodical, purposeful, and professional in their work.

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There were no fingerprints found, no
DNA, no hairs or fibers.

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The only clues found were two footprints
in blood from two different sized shoes,

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indicating there were likely as at least
two perpetrators. Additionally, there were shell

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casings found at the scenes from three
different gun types, two caliber shells presumably

251
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from a long rifle, thirty caliber
rounds from an SKS semi automatic rifle,

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and a single forty caliber round that
was most likely fired from a glock pistol.

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The three different types of guns also
pointed to the possibility of multiple killers.

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Being a small town where everyone knows
everyone, people immediately started speculating about

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who might be responsible for the massacre
of the Rodent family. Can you imagine

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00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.920
everyone must have just been so shocked
and panicked, Oh yeah, freaking out

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in such a small community to lose
so many people, Yeah, Danis dad

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Leonards said that Chris Senior had two
pitbulls, a wolf dog, and some

259
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coon dogs that were all vicious.
In his opinion, the fact that the

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dogs hadn't been shot and killed meant
the killers must have known the family fairly

261
00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.839
well, Otherwise the dogs would have
attacked. The Fact that there were small

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00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.119
children in the crime scene who were
spared also pointed to the possible ability that

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the killings were done by someone who
knew the family. Some of the Rodent

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00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:10.000
family members had gotten into various fights
and altercations in the days and weeks leading

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up to the murders, fueling speculation
that the massacre was somehow related to one

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of these incidents. Frankie and Chris
Junior were both known as hotheads who would

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get into fights, especially after a
heated demolition derby. After one derby several

268
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months before the killings, Frankie and
Chris Junior got into an online war of

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words with a rival named Tommy Gorman. After the social media back and forth

270
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had gone on for a while,
Frankie and Chris decided to pay Tommy a

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visit, where they beat up both
Tommy and his dad, knocking some of

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00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:48.039
Tommy Senior's front teeth out in the
process. Oh boy. The fight was

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00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.640
broken up by Tommy's grandpa, who
came out and fired a shotgun into the

274
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air to put a stop to things. Frankie was arrested after the fight and

275
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sentenced to less than a year probation. Two months before the murders, Chris

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Junior was involved in a road rage
incident with a thirty three year old woman

277
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named Rebecca Allen. Rebecca had slapped
Chris Junior in the face and threatened him

278
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.400
and his mother, Dana. The
threats were recorded on his cell phone,

279
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:18.799
and Rebecca ended up getting arrested and
sentenced to two years probation and community service,

280
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along with getting slapped with a restraining
order barring her from contacting Dana or

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Chris Junior. The restraining order was
issued just the day before the murders.

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Imagine being a thirty three year old
woman and slapping a sixteen year old kid

283
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after a road rage incident. He
was a little over the top, but

284
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the courts were very busy in the
Piketown area, and just two weeks before

285
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.119
the murders, a local nineteen year
old named Rusty Mongold got into a beef

286
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.880
with Chris Junior. Rusty posted on
Facebook that Chris had hit him with his

287
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.119
car and threatened to break Chris Junior's
legs and curb stump him. I don't

288
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:03.759
know what kurb stumped is. I
think it means like you stomp on someone's

289
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.759
head on a curb. It's probably
a really bad thing to do. After

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00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.880
the murders, the police brought Rusty
in for questioning, but didn't find any

291
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.880
evidence of his involvement. In addition
to rumor spreading related to these incidents,

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00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.640
the initial focus of investigators seemed to
be on the two people who had discovered

293
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.200
the bodies, Dana's sister Bobby Joe
Manley and Dana's brother James Manley. They

294
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:32.599
were both brought in for questioning several
times and given polygraph tests. James apparently

295
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.720
failed his polygraph, but we don't
know the details of what questions were asked

296
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or which ones tripped him up.
Investigators went so far as to put a

297
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:45.240
tracking device on James's pickup truck.
James eventually found it and destroyed it.

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He was arrested and charged with vandalism
and tampering with evidence, but both of

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00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.720
those charges were later dismissed. So, if you find a tracking device on

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00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.680
your vehicle and you destroy it,
I had the same thought. I think

301
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.480
you would be justified in that,
wouldn't you. I mean I would think

302
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.839
so. Yeah, that kind of
surprised me at the exact same thought,

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00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.160
because you wouldn't know who put it
there necessarily, Yeah, exactly, it'd

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00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:11.960
be like finding something in your house. I'd be like, well, I

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00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:18.680
didn't put this here, I'm authorized
to destroy it. Interesting. Mike DeWine

306
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.960
is the current governor of Ohio,
but at the time of the murders he

307
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.400
was the attorney general. He became
the face of the investigation, regularly briefing

308
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:32.039
the media with the facts that the
investigative team was willing to share. Another

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00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:37.759
person regularly by DeWine's side in front
of the cameras was Pike County Sheriff Charles

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00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.400
Reader. Reader knew right away that
this crime was much too big for the

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00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.400
relatively small and inexperienced local police department
to handle, so they called for help

312
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:52.839
from the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigators
or BCI. Right away, that small

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00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.880
town police department must have just been
so overwhelmed. Yeah, so much.

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00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:02.000
I mean four different crime scenes,
eight different Yeah, so much evidence.

315
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.000
Well, actually, you said there
was little evidence right. Piked in and

316
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:08.680
the surrounding communities were on edge after
the killings, worried that they might be

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00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:14.400
next. At first, a Wine
exacerbated the fear by saying, whoever did

318
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.759
the killing should be considered armed and
dangerous. Duh, But I saw that

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00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.559
seemed like, you know, more
obvious words could not have been spoken,

320
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:27.400
right, But he later tried to
alleviate any panic by saying these were targeted

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00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:33.160
killings, so the public needn't be
concerned. I'm sure that did not provide

322
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.200
a lot of comfort to the people
of piked In though, right. I

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00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.559
read somebody I saw quoted as talking
about how they had never held a gun

324
00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:42.160
in their life and they went out
and bought a gun like right away and

325
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.480
kept it with them at all times
after the killings, because I mean,

326
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:49.519
you would just be totally freaked out. Well, it does seem like they

327
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:55.480
were very targeted, though, and
like anyone in that was remaining in the

328
00:25:55.599 --> 00:26:00.000
Rodent family must have been really freaked
out for sure. Two days after them

329
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.759
murders, Mike DeWine shared some news
that kicked off a whole new round of

330
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:08.279
speculation in a different direction. Dwine
told the press that marijuana growing operations had

331
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:12.640
been found at three of the four
crime scenes. Chris Senior had a big

332
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:17.799
barn in which he was growing marijuana, along with a second location in his

333
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:22.119
attic, while Kenneth had a shed
behind his trailer. This wasn't just a

334
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:29.000
small number of plants for personal consumption
and all there were around two hundred marijuana

335
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:33.160
plants on the three properties, about
four hundred thousand dollars worth of weed.

336
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.920
Holy cow, a lot of marijuana. So marijuana is not legal in Ohio.

337
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.799
It wasn't that what it is?
It is for medical use now,

338
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.839
I believe, Okay. The southern
part of Ohio had been devastated in the

339
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.480
years before the Rodent family, massacred
by drugs, mostly prescription painkillers, heroin,

340
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.319
and methanphetamines. The drug overdose mortality
rate in Pike County from twenty fourteen

341
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:02.920
to twenty eighteen was seventy one death
per one hundred thousand people, almost triple

342
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.880
the rate for the rest of the
country. Ground zero for the pill mill

343
00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.519
epidemic was the town of Portsmouth,
Ohio, about fifteen miles from Piketon.

344
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.640
A pill mill is a doctor who
writes prescriptions for money. People would come

345
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.359
from all over the country to buy
pills then sell them back home for ten

346
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:25.599
times what they paid us twenty three
through Piketon is known by law enforcement as

347
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.640
the Heroine Highway. Math. Fentanyl, cocaine, heroine, and occasionally prescription

348
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:36.680
meds have all been seized along there. Obviously, marijuana is a lot different

349
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:40.880
from heroin and painkillers, but the
news that the wine shared suddenly change the

350
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.599
attitudes of the public towards the victims. In this case. People had less

351
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.920
empathy, some even feeling like maybe
the Rodents deserve what happened to them in

352
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.480
some way. There have been a
lot of donations flowing in to help their

353
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:57.519
surviving family with funeral and other expenses, but those donations dried up. A

354
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:03.880
local restaurant owner had offered a twenty
five thousand dollar reward for finding the killers,

355
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.640
but after hearing about the marijuana growing
operation, he rescinded the reward.

356
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:14.640
The marijuana revelation also suggested a hossible
motive. Could the Rodents have been connected

357
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:18.680
to some bad people, maybe a
Mexican drug cartel. Many people might think

358
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.880
that Mexican cartels don't have a presence
in the US, especially somewhere in the

359
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:27.839
Midwest like southern Ohio, but that's
not the case. In twenty twelve,

360
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:33.200
there was a bust in Pike County
of a grow operation with thirteen hundred plants,

361
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.920
and another major bust in twenty ten
where over twenty two thousand plants were

362
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:44.799
seized. Both of these busts were
linked to Mexican organized crime. The surviving

363
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.720
Rodent family members were not happy about
the announcement of the marijuana grow operations.

364
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:52.480
Not only did the donations joy up, but they also felt that this information

365
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:57.440
was revealed in order to give the
investigators an out in case they weren't able

366
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:03.240
to solve the case. Kenneth's daughter
Kendri said, quote, it's easier to

367
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.839
just say, well, it's the
drug cartel than to say someone in our

368
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:10.839
community could have done this. It's
easier to just write it off as drug

369
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.200
related than to sit here and go
through the entire process to figure out who

370
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.759
done it, why they done it. If you say cartel, everyone's going

371
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.640
to go for it because there's drugs. End quote. In the same press

372
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.000
conference, Mike DeWine also said that
on one of the Rodent properties, investigators

373
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:33.640
had found roosters and cages consistent with
cockfighting. We're not sure if this ended

374
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.319
up being disproven or just forgotten,
but it wasn't really mentioned again and no

375
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:44.079
more details were revealed. In any
case, Revealing both the marijuana grow operations

376
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:48.960
and the cockfighting cages had the effect
of changing the attitude of many in the

377
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.359
public towards the victims of this crime. It's really unfortunate because in no way

378
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.880
did the rodents deserve what happened to
them, regardless of their involvement in these

379
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:02.200
other activities. Really, that really
upset me when I read about that,

380
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:06.319
because I'm like, so, what
they were growing marijuana, That doesn't mean

381
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:11.000
your whole family deserves to get killed. We'll be back after a break.

382
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.839
Before we get back into the case, I'm wondering if you have a snack

383
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:26.039
redemption because I am a little hungry. You'll have to wait until part two.

384
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.559
Oh man, that really left a
bad taste in my mouth. And

385
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:32.480
I don't think we really talked explained
what it was. I don't think we

386
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:34.440
did. You're right, it's like
chili, but then what's underneath of chili

387
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:40.480
spaghetti? It's spaghetti with chili on
top and then cheese cheese. Yeah,

388
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:44.319
not great? No, well,
I mean it has potential, Like,

389
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:48.200
I don't think it's Is it different
if you have it live at the restaurant?

390
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.400
Yeah, it's very different. It's
not like all mixed in like it

391
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:56.359
was, and it's it's Yeah,
it's just better. I think gonna say,

392
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.720
Pisquetti is the spaghetti? Is it
the spaghetti better at the restaurant?

393
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.039
I think it probably because this spaghetti
was like the you know, really super

394
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:10.960
thin and anyway, anyway, let's
get on with our story. Two months

395
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:14.799
into the investigation, there wasn't much
more that was revealed to the public.

396
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.079
People, especially the Rodent family,
were growing impatient. Mike DeWine told the

397
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.279
press, quote, I've said from
the beginning this was going to be a

398
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.240
long investigation. How long, I
don't know. We know a lot more

399
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.359
than we did on day one.
Just because we're not making any announcements doesn't

400
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.839
mean we're not making progress. Unquote. Another year went by and still there

401
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:41.480
wasn't much revealed to the public.
But then DeWine had a press conference in

402
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:47.000
June twenty seventeen where he dropped an
intriguing nugget of information. He asked the

403
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:51.720
public for any information that might connect
another local family, the Wagners, to

404
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:55.720
the Rodents. He didn't say they
were suspects. He was just looking for

405
00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.519
information. So who were the Wagners. You might member that I mentioned the

406
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:05.599
father of Hanname Rhodin's two and a
half year old daughter, Sophia was a

407
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.160
local guy named Jake Wagner. Will
dive deeper into Hanname and Jake's relationship in

408
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:15.480
a minute, but first let's describe
the rest of the Wagner family. Considered

409
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:20.920
Pike County royalty, the Wagners were
one of the wealthiest families in the area.

410
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.119
The gramma of the family, Frederica
Wagner, owned property all over Pike

411
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:30.559
County that encompassed more than seventeen hundred
acres of land worth about four million dollars,

412
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:37.119
including the Flying W Farm. At
the Flying W Farm, workers bred

413
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.079
horses, dogs, and pigs.
Frederica's husband, George Wagner the Second,

414
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:45.759
had created a new breed of horse, the Georgian Grand which is a blend

415
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:52.599
of Freezian draft and saddlebread type horses. They also created a new breed of

416
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.359
dog, the American Mastiff, which
is a cross between the English and Anatolian

417
00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:02.599
mastiff and can weigh up to two
hundred Holy Cow the large dog. Frederica

418
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:08.519
had also founded two nonprofit organizations,
Lucasville Mission, a church that helped underprivileged

419
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:15.480
children, and the Crystal Springs Home, a facility providing services to developmentally disabled

420
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.799
adults. To many people, Frederica
was a saint. She was a devoutly

421
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.559
religious woman who did a lot of
community service and would help anyone who needed

422
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:29.079
it. But there were also allegations
that she cheated people out of money at

423
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:34.440
the Crystal Springs home, that she
had defrauded buyers of animals from her farm,

424
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:38.160
and that she had taken advantage of
people by entering into land installment contracts

425
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:44.519
that promised renters could become landowners,
but in reality it rarely worked out that

426
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:50.079
way. Frederica and George the Second
had a son named George Wagner the Third,

427
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.200
who was better known as Billy.
He was around forty five at the

428
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:59.039
time of the Rodent family killings.
Billy was described by people who knew him

429
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:04.200
as a sur couch potato, sharp
as a bowling ball, and not much

430
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.679
to look at. One description said
he looked like a big ogre, not

431
00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:12.320
much of a prize. But when
he met Angela Newcombe, the two fell

432
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.760
in love and married. It's possible
that Angela saw dollar signs, as the

433
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:21.559
Wagner family were well known in the
area for their wealth. Angela and Billy

434
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.039
had a son, George the Fourth, who was twenty four at the time

435
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:29.199
of the killings, followed soon by
another son, Edward, who was better

436
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.800
known as Jake. Why is no
one known by their I know, isn't

437
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:37.360
it funny? Jake was twenty three
at the time of the killings. Angela

438
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.639
supposedly didn't get along with her mother
in law, Frederica Wagner, and also

439
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:45.920
was alleged to have vicious fights with
her husband, Billy. People said that

440
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.880
she got through the days with Billy
by slipping small amounts of a sedative into

441
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:54.400
Billy's shakes to keep him somewhat calm. Ooh, that's not cool. Not

442
00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:00.599
cool. After George and Jake came
along, Angela's world revolved around her two

443
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:05.840
boys. She was extremely protective and
was involved in every aspect of her son's

444
00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:10.000
lives. The boys were homeschooled for
much of their education, although how much

445
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:15.519
they actually learned is questionable. Jake
later said that his mom filled out their

446
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.239
tests for them. He said,
quote, I wasn't doing that crap.

447
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.000
I didn't need it. I was
a truck driver and a farmer. I

448
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:27.159
didn't need those things. Unquote.
Angela was in control of everything that went

449
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:31.239
on in the Wagner household rooms were
to be immaculate at all times, dishes

450
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:36.920
done immediately after dinner, and everything
in its place. If anything was out

451
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:40.639
of place, she would go ballistic. People said she was obsessive and clingy,

452
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.360
wanting to be in control of everything
that went on around her. According

453
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:50.760
to Angela's brother, she had a
rough upbringing. Their father was abusive and

454
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.639
controlling, telling Angela what clothes to
wear every day. To escape, Angela

455
00:35:54.760 --> 00:36:00.280
joined the military at eighteen, but
was only enlisted for a year. During

456
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.199
her time in the military, she
said she had been raped, but didn't

457
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:07.440
feel that she could report it.
The Wagners were a tight knit family with

458
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.840
few friends. If Angela decided she
didn't like you, which she often did,

459
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.719
you weren't going to get close to
her family. The oldest son,

460
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:19.320
George, seemed like the odd one
out in the family, being more outgoing

461
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.000
and having more friends than the others. Jake was Angela's favorite. He was

462
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.719
similar to her in wanting to control
everything that went on. Billy did some

463
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:31.400
work for his mother, Frederica,
but also drove a truck to support the

464
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:37.320
family. He was always coming up
with money making schemes. At one point

465
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.599
he talked about opening up a bar
and a brothel in Mexico, and another

466
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:45.599
scheme he had was going to Canada
to buy a bunch of pharmaceuticals in order

467
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.400
to sell them at a markup back
home. It's not clear how many of

468
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:53.440
Billy's schemes actually came to fruition.
Did Frederica kind of hold the purse strings

469
00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:58.199
for the family like they had money? Yes, it was her money,

470
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:00.719
right, She was the one who
had money. So I don't think Billy

471
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:05.719
and Angela were super well off other
than obviously having a wealthy mother and mother

472
00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:10.239
in law. Billy was good friends
with Chris Roadin Senior. There was credible

473
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:15.800
information that Bill and Chris Senior were
involved in selling drugs together. Because Billy

474
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.400
was a truck driver, he and
Chris would take trips together where they would

475
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:24.320
transport marijuana to be sold, but
neither had ever been arrested or charged with

476
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:30.360
anything related to drug production or distribution. In their investigation, the police learned

477
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:35.320
that Billy and Chris were working on
a big marijuana deal with the potential to

478
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:39.079
bring in around eight hundred thousand dollars. Billy was not going to win any

479
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:43.280
award for parent of the Year.
He didn't believe in going to doctors.

480
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.719
When Jake was hurt as a teenager, Billy would use duct tape and black

481
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.639
electric tape to mend his wounds.
Billy also taught his sons, George and

482
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:57.000
Jake, to pick locks and steal
things at a young age. At age

483
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:01.000
thirteen, Billy taught George how to
break into truck trailers and steal their loads.

484
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:06.639
Billy especially liked to steal things from
Walmart. He hated Walmart for some

485
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:12.679
reason. At around ages fourteen and
fifteen, George and Jake started stealing gas

486
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.079
from gas stations. They would tap
into the underground fuel tanks to siphon gas

487
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:21.639
at night. They would store thousands
of gallons of fuel at their properties to

488
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:24.039
use and to sell. Oh my
goodness, I didn't think that was possible.

489
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:28.480
I know, I wouldn't have thought
so either. The family mostly avoided

490
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.000
getting into trouble with the law,
but they did have a couple of infractions.

491
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:36.679
In two thousand and one, Angela
and Billy were charged with improperly handling

492
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:39.360
a firearm when they pulled a gun
on someone during a road rage incident.

493
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.840
No one was hurt, though,
and eventually the charges were dropped. In

494
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:50.559
twenty twelve, Angela and Billy were
both charged with receiving stolen property. Some

495
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:53.119
of the Wagoners would later admit to
a bunch of other crimes the family had

496
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:58.719
committed but had never gotten caught for. At different times. They had torched

497
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:02.119
two homes, a semi truck,
a garage, and also crashed a pickup

498
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:07.760
truck, all to collect insurance money. They shoplifted regularly, and once stole

499
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:13.280
a trailer full of Rocky brand boots, selling them at a bargain to folks

500
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:16.559
in piked In County. George would
later say, quote, everybody in Pike

501
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:22.800
County was wearing Rocky boots at that
point. Wow, how do you know

502
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:28.920
this information? And so they weren't
prosecuted for the theft. No, they

503
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.760
weren't. This all came out later
in a trial. Let's just say that.

504
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.280
In the summer of twenty twelve,
George married a girl named Tabitha who

505
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:42.960
also known as Tabby, and soon
had a baby boy who they named Bulvine.

506
00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:46.800
On our most recent Patreon episode,
we talked about names that were going

507
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:52.760
extinct and the direction that names were
going, and I think Bulvine is a

508
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:55.960
that's a pretty unique name. Might
be on its way up. It might

509
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.679
be probably probably not what it might
be. It is a very unnu.

510
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.559
I have never heard that name before. B U l v I n E

511
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.440
bolly, it's beautiful. After they
married, Tabby moved into the Wagner's home.

512
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:14.000
She later described the family dynamic and
how controlling Angela was. Tabby said

513
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:16.760
she wasn't allowed to leave to go
visit her family, and her family wasn't

514
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:21.639
allowed to come visit her. She
couldn't have a phone or use the internet,

515
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.239
and every night Angela would come into
Tabby and George's room and make Tabby

516
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:30.519
leave so that Angela could scratch her
son's back and talk about their day.

517
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:37.000
That's normal. Yeah, it's a
little weird. Angela also prescribed what kind

518
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:40.840
of sexual relations were allowed between her
son and daughter in law. For example,

519
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.280
oral sex was not okay because you
would go to hell for that sort

520
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:49.239
of thing, and having intercourse was
only okay if it was for the purpose

521
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.800
of having children. Holy cow.
Yeah, it's a little old' your source

522
00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:58.960
for this information? I have no
idea. One night, Tabby and George

523
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.519
had a big fight. Tabby wanted
to go outside to cool off, but

524
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:06.719
George wouldn't allow it. Tabby got
in his face and he slapped her.

525
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:09.480
She went to leave, and Angela
threw a two by four at her and

526
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:14.760
then told George she was going to
get her gun. Fortunately, the violence

527
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:19.920
didn't escalate beyond that, but George
and Tabitha decided to dissolve the marriage,

528
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:24.599
and the Wagners presented custody paperwork to
Tabby. She signed it, believing that

529
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:29.840
it specified that she would share custody
of her son with George, but in

530
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:35.320
reality, the custody agreement gave full
control to George. Tabby was devastated,

531
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.280
but the Wagners had money and lawyers, so she felt powerless to do anything

532
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:45.519
about it. Angela basically became Bolvine's
mom at that point. Tabby would later

533
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:49.599
share her experience with Hannah May Rodin, who had a child with Jake Wagner

534
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.800
then later broke up with him.
Tabby wanted to warn Hannah may to be

535
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.920
sure that she wasn't tricked in the
same way that Tabby had been Wow.

536
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:01.840
Jake and Hannah May met in the
summer of twenty ten, when Jake was

537
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:07.760
not quite eighteen and Hannah was just
thirteen. They were introduced by a mutual

538
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:12.960
friend at the Pike County Fair,
where Hannah May was enthusiastically showing her fluffy

539
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.800
white bunny. Despite the age difference, the two started dating. That does

540
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:22.079
not qualify for the half plus seven
rule, does it. I'm not really

541
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.519
familiar. I vaguely remember. Basically, that specifies how young of a person

542
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:28.199
you care allowed to date. You
take half of your age and add seven,

543
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:30.599
and that's the youngest person you were
allowed to date. So if you

544
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:34.639
were thirty, you would be allowed
to date a twenty two year old.

545
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.360
If you're eighteen, you would only
be allowed to date a sixteen year old.

546
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:42.559
It seems a little arbitrary, but
I guess he's a pretty good rule

547
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:45.239
of them. It was first love
for both of them. After two years

548
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:50.440
together, Hannah May and Jake started
planning a future together. They set a

549
00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:53.119
wedding date. Got she's fifteen,
and they set a wedding date. Uh

550
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:58.320
huh. They got matching wedding ring
tattoos on their left fingers and decided they

551
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:01.480
wanted to have kids right away.
Hannah May moved into the Wagner's home to

552
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:06.920
live with Jake and his family.
She felt warmly welcomed and became part of

553
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:10.760
the family. Hannah May got pregnant
at sixteen and gave birth to a girl,

554
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:15.639
Sophia, in November twenty thirteen.
Hannah May adored her little girl,

555
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:21.559
and Jake was a hands on dad
who was protective of Sophia and would play

556
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:24.920
with her for hours at a time. With lots of family support from both

557
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:30.039
the road In and Wagner households,
Hannah went back to high school while Jake

558
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:32.960
got a job working with his dad
as a truck driver. Over time,

559
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:37.000
though, Hannah May started seeing another
side of Jake and the Wagner family.

560
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:42.480
She and Jake were very different.
She was outgoing and social and wanted to

561
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:45.480
be active, while Jake was more
of a homebody. At first, she

562
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:50.280
liked the challenge of taking him out
of his comfort zone, but over time

563
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:55.599
she decided he was boring. He
became controlling, telling Hannah May that what

564
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.639
she could and couldn't do, who
she could talk to, and where she

565
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.599
could go. Oh. Hannah May
wanted to finish school and work, but

566
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:07.559
Jake wanted her to be a housewife
just like his mom. Angelo was another

567
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:13.519
problem. She wanted to be more
involved in Sophia's life than a typical grandma.

568
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.239
She wanted to run the show and
acted like she was Sophia's mom,

569
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:22.199
just as she'd done with George and
Tabby's son Bulvin. This wasn't okay with

570
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.159
Hannah May, but seemed just fine
by Jake. As time went on,

571
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:30.400
Jake started getting violent when he and
Hannah May would fight, kicking indoors and

572
00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:35.199
grabbing her by the throat. In
April twenty fifteen, Hannah May decided she

573
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.639
was done. She broke it off
with Jake and took Sophia back home with

574
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:43.280
her. She and Jake made a
verbal agreement to share custody. He would

575
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:45.000
keep her for a week, then
Hannah May would have her for a week.

576
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.679
Jake wasn't happy about the whole thing. He didn't want to break up

577
00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:53.639
in the first place and held out
hope for getting back together. In May

578
00:44:53.719 --> 00:45:00.079
twenty fifteen, Hannah May started dating
Charlie Gilly. Charlie was best friends with

579
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:05.400
her brother Frankie, who was engaged
to Charlie's sister, Hannah Gilly. Charlie

580
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.760
fell for Hannah May quickly, but
the relationship only lasted for about three months.

581
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:14.000
At some point that summer, while
she was still seeing Charlie. Hannah

582
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.440
May fell for another local guy,
Cory Holdren. At the same time,

583
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:22.239
her relationship with Jake hadn't fully ended
either. They were seeing each other off

584
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.559
and on, but Jake was crushed
when he learned that Hannah May had started

585
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:30.920
dating Corey. He felt like she
wasn't giving him a chance and he couldn't

586
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:36.519
understand why. In July twenty fifteen, Hannah May posted on Facebook some song

587
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:43.239
lyrics by a song by Minnie Finn
called It's Your Time domestic violence quote.

588
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:47.199
He slowly isolates her from all her
friends. She works really hard, but

589
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:52.679
he takes all the ends. He's
not giving emails and screen in the calls.

590
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:55.519
Just when she gets up, he
makes sure that she falls. He

591
00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.000
slowly isolates it from all the little
friends. She worked very hall. Woody

592
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.360
takes all the hands. He's out
every night. If she goes out,

593
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.559
she's oh. It's to the point
she stays home to avoid war. It's

594
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:12.679
not about love, it's power and
control. She's mixed up wooded coward.

595
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:27.880
Why you got no soul? Benigo. That is a genre of music that

596
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.639
I never knew existed, called redneck
hip hop. Yeah, hey, catchy,

597
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:35.840
it's not bad, hannahme, I
mean, it's it's good that artists

598
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:38.840
are making songs like that and putting
the word out that domestic violence hurts a

599
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:43.480
lot of people. Definitely. Hannah
Mae ended the post with her own words,

600
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:47.159
quote end domestic violence, Live a
happier life. End quote. We

601
00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:52.079
don't know for sure whether she was
talking about Jake, Charlie, or Corey,

602
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.320
or none of the above, but
based on what we know of her

603
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:59.519
relationship with Jake and his abuse,
it seems likely that she was alluding to

604
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.800
him. In August twenty fifteen,
Hannah Mae found out she was pregnant again.

605
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:07.679
She didn't know whether the father was
Charlie, Corey, or Jake.

606
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.119
Jake decided that the baby must be
his, which gave him some hope that

607
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.880
Hannah May would take him back.
He told her that he would be happy

608
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.199
to be there for the birth and
offered to help with anything she needed.

609
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.880
He and his mom, Angela,
bought a crib and other things for the

610
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.599
baby, but Hannah May had no
interest in getting back together with Jake.

611
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.400
Hannah ma gave birth to a second
baby, a girl named Kylie, on

612
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:37.519
April seventeenth, twenty sixteen, just
five days before she was killed. She

613
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.559
didn't list a father on the birth
certificate, so she had no idea at

614
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:45.000
that point. I don't believe she
knew before that. Though, the Wagners

615
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.639
decided they needed to get full custody
of two and a half year old Sophia,

616
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:53.679
Angela became convinced that Sophia was endangered
at the road and household. They

617
00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:58.360
didn't want Sophia in daycare, and
they thought she was going to be kidnapped.

618
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.679
Why would they think that. We'll
learn more about this in a bit,

619
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:07.199
But I think the Wagner family,
and especially Angela just she saw abuse

620
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:12.119
everywhere, even if it wasn't there. Okay, Well, they decided that

621
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.719
Sophia was being sexually abused at the
Rodent household with no proof. I'm guessing.

622
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.599
Angela would later claim that when Sophia
was at the Wagner's house, they

623
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.320
noticed that her crotch was very red
and irritated. She also claimed that Sophia

624
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:30.440
was having behavioral issues after being at
the Rodents for a week, she would

625
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.360
be grouchy and didn't want to be
alone. A couple of weeks prior to

626
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:37.800
the birth of Kylie, Jake and
his father Billy brought over some custody papers

627
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:43.280
and asked Hannah May to sign,
but she refused. As we mentioned earlier,

628
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:46.119
Hannah May had been talking to Tabitha, who told her how she had

629
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:51.360
been tricked into signing an agreement to
turn over custody of her son to George.

630
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:54.960
This apparently wasn't the first attempt at
getting Hannah May to sign custody papers.

631
00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:00.199
A few months earlier, in December
twenty fifteen, she had messages a

632
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.519
friend on Facebook saying quote, no, I won't sign custody papers. Ever,

633
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:09.400
it won't happen. They'll have to
kill me first end quote. As

634
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:14.480
the custody battle became contentious, Jake
made comments to a couple of friends that

635
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.360
he was going to kill Hannah May. No one took him seriously, though,

636
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:22.960
they seemed to think he was just
blowing off steam. One week after

637
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.920
the murders, Jake and his family
filed for custody of both Sophia and Kylie.

638
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.360
He still didn't know whether he was
Kylie's father, but he was convinced

639
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.880
that he was. He argued that
even if he wasn't, he should at

640
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:38.800
least have partial custody so that Sophia
and Kylie could spend time together. The

641
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:43.760
fact that Jake filed these papers within
a week of Hannah May's death was eye

642
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.719
opening for investigators. Normally, it
takes months, if not a year,

643
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:52.119
to put together this kind of paperwork. It was almost like the family was

644
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:59.760
expecting the opportunity to arise. Oh
these people, don't they like to have

645
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:04.280
their They are very controlling. I
think that is the key theme, especially

646
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:09.320
with Angela and Jake, as they
liked to have control of everything. Aside

647
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:14.239
from all the circumstantial evidence that was
starting to point to the Wagner family,

648
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:19.119
investigators were able to make progress on
the bloody shoeprints found at one of the

649
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.800
crime scenes. If you recall,
there were two different sized shoeprints, which

650
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:28.760
led investigators to believe that there were
at least two perpetrators. The lab was

651
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.639
able to identify that the shoes were
sizes ten and a half and eleven,

652
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:37.880
and the treads showed nowhere at all, indicating that they were brand new.

653
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.559
Did someone go out and buy new
shoes just for the purpose of committing this

654
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:46.440
crime? Forensic technicians visited local stores
looking for shoes that matched the treads,

655
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:52.440
and sure enough, they hit on
an exact match at Walmart. This particular

656
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:57.760
shoe was sold exclusively at Walmart,
which narrowed things down further, but still

657
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:00.519
they had no idea when the shoes
had been sold, so this avenue ran

658
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:05.159
into a dead end for now.
Anyway, I think we've had a lot

659
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:09.760
of cases with Walmart involved, have
Walmart s. Walmart is big there,

660
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:15.079
everywhere, everywhere. At the time, Mike DeWine asked the public for more

661
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:19.960
information about the Wagner family. The
investigation was a year old. Mike DeWine

662
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:22.840
still wouldn't share details, but he
told the press quote, we are still

663
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:28.239
running things down, we are still
learning things. Justice will be done end

664
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.639
quote. He said that the investigation
had followed up on eight hundred and eighty

665
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.000
three tips, conducted four hundred and
sixty five interviews, executed thirty eight search

666
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:42.559
warrants, and performed sixty cyber extractions. Woh, that is a ton of

667
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.920
work. Yeah, for sure.
The Rodents were getting impatient and frustrated,

668
00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:52.400
especially because investigators had taken into custody
the three trailers and one camper where the

669
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:57.119
victims had all lived. The trailers
and camper were hauled to an outdoor lot

670
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:00.480
surrounded by a fence, a lot
that was an especially secure by the way,

671
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:05.079
which would cause a bit of a
scandal later when the press exposed this

672
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.679
fact. But the Rodents were upset
because the trailers and the camper contained all

673
00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:15.079
of the family's belongings, photo albums, baby toys, quilts made by Chris

674
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.159
Senior's mom, Geneva. The items
had sentimental value to the family and would

675
00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:23.039
have helped them grieve, but everything
was stowed away for all this time.

676
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:28.599
The Wagners must have been starting to
feel the heat by this time as well.

677
00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:34.320
In May twenty seventeen, Billy Angela
George and his son Bolvin Jake and

678
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:38.559
his daughter Sophia packed up their things
and the whole family moved to Alaska.

679
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:44.599
Although this looked suspicious, friends of
the Wagners knew that they had long talked

680
00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:47.480
about moving there. It was their
dream. Not only that, but the

681
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:51.920
pastor from their church, who had
been important to their family, had moved

682
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:55.519
up there and started a new church
that would welcome the family into its congregation.

683
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:01.719
The move actually helped Investigators because while
the Wagoners sold their property and piked

684
00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:07.440
in, they left behind a ton
of their stuff. Investigators asked for and

685
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.519
were granted permission from the new owners
to look through everything. After going through

686
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.159
tens of thousands of items, investigators
hit pay dirt. They found a receipt

687
00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:22.360
from Walmart dated shortly before the murders
that included two pairs of shoes size ten

688
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:27.800
and a half and eleven, purchased
for the low low price of thirteen dollars

689
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.559
and ninety seven cents each. What
that's a bargain? I know they were

690
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:36.679
the same type of shoes that the
team had identified from their treads. So

691
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:40.719
they sold their property and moved to
Alaska, but left behind their belongings,

692
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:45.559
left behind tens of thousands of items. Yeah, I have no explanation for

693
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:50.719
why they did that or why the
people that bought their property were okay with

694
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:53.199
that. They weren't just renting,
they sold it. As far as I

695
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:55.559
know, that was what I read. Yes, you would think that they

696
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:01.000
would have gotten rid of the never
mind, discovery of the Walmart receipt with

697
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:05.679
the shoes allowed the investigators to go
back to Walmart because now they have the

698
00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:10.000
date, and luckily Walmart must keep
their surveillance footage for a long time because

699
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:15.119
who did they see? Clear as
day on video buying those shoes none other

700
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:20.719
than Angela Wagner. Soon after moving
to Alaska, Jake Wagner met a girl

701
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:24.880
named Elizabeth Armor at church. Elizabeth
had grown up very sheltered in a Mennonite

702
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:30.320
community before she decided to escape that
lifestyle and start a new life for herself

703
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:35.599
by moving to Alaska. The two
fell in love and got married in March

704
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:40.599
twenty eighteen. Beth didn't know anything
about the murder investigation or the suspicious cloud

705
00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:45.719
hanging over Jake and the rest of
the Wagners. She did find out about

706
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:50.280
it eventually, but their pastor assured
her that the accusations against the Wagners were

707
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:54.039
just slander. Beth wanted to be
a mother to Sophia, but as she

708
00:54:54.039 --> 00:55:00.639
would later say, she ended up
marrying her worst nightmare. Angela hated the

709
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:05.840
idea of Jake marrying Elizabeth. In
her mind, she was Sophia's mother figure

710
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:09.960
and didn't want anyone else taking her
place. Here's a short clip which investigators

711
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:15.760
got through a wiretap, where Angela
is arguing with Jake about this. Oh,

712
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:21.000
let's see her, mommy, I'm
her grandmother. Beth bore than me

713
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:24.920
and she breathed for me, and
I'm just her grandmother. You're not her

714
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.920
mother, You are her grandmother.
She sounds like a lovely lady, doesn't

715
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:35.440
she. She sounds like a nightmare. Yeah. Just like with Hannah May

716
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:40.079
and with George's former wife, Tabitha, Beth started experiencing the controlling ways of

717
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:45.960
Angela and Jake herself. Beth told
Jake that she had been abused as a

718
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:50.840
child, so Jake forbade her to
contact her family. He also demanded to

719
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:53.280
have all the passwords for her phone, email, bank accounts, and so

720
00:55:53.360 --> 00:56:00.880
on, without evidence. Angela accused
Beth of touching Sophia inappropriately and convinced George

721
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:06.199
that she had done so. George
then tried to convince his brother that this

722
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:09.840
was happening as well. Here's another
clip from the wiretap where George is trying

723
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:25.039
to convince Jake you would not my
life? What you so? Yeah?

724
00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:30.199
What George said? Your daughter's probably
being molested and you believe a frickin horror

725
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:34.880
over her. And then Jake responds, what you will not insult my wife?

726
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.840
And then George says something like you're
too bleeping blind by the freaking demon

727
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:43.840
she's put behind you. This is
interesting. Like this family, they're very

728
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:46.559
tight knit, but they obviously argue
a lot with each other as well and

729
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:52.719
have a lot of conflicts within the
family. Beth later said that Jake quote

730
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.199
laid it out very clearly to me
that if I had done it, that

731
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.480
the right thing to do would be
to create Lucille, which I don't know

732
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.880
if you remember, but the baseball
bat from the Walking Dead with the barbed

733
00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:06.760
wire wrapped around it, and string
me up in the barn, beat me

734
00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:09.440
to death with the baseball bat,
bulldoze the barn, burn it down,

735
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:15.000
and hunt down and kill my family
unplayed is yeah. And if he didn't

736
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:20.440
do it, he said his mom
would. Soon after this threat was issued,

737
00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:24.199
Elizabeth called a friend in Alaska and
asked for help escaping from the family

738
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:30.480
because she was convinced that Jake would
end up murdering her. After a year

739
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:35.000
in Alaska, the Wagners decided to
move back to Pike County. Financially,

740
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:37.840
it wasn't a good move for them
because it was harder finding work. If

741
00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:42.760
they moved back, George and Jake
could get jobs with the trucking company that

742
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:47.000
they had worked for before. Investigators
were obviously narrowing in on the family by

743
00:57:47.039 --> 00:57:52.880
this time, but they needed details. They didn't know who specifically was involved

744
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.960
in planning and carrying out the killings. Was it just one of them acting

745
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:00.719
alone or were they all in on
it? And who actually did the shooting.

746
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:06.960
The investigative team got winned that the
Wagoners were planning to return to Ohio.

747
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:10.199
They decided to have the family stopped
by federal authorities at the Montana border

748
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:15.880
and questioned them. Billy would not
agree to talk at all. George and

749
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.960
Jake spoke with investigators, but they
denied any involvement in the murder of the

750
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:25.840
Rodents without providing any additional detail.
Angela spoke with investigators and they asked her

751
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:30.960
if she normally bought shoes and socks
for George and Jake. She said no,

752
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.760
they bought their own shoes and socks. Then they confronted her with the

753
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:38.360
Walmart receipt and told her they had
her on video buying the shoes. She

754
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:42.880
said, well, I guess I
must have bought them. They asked what

755
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.480
happened to the shoes, and she
said George and Jake threw them away because

756
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:51.400
they said the shoes looked like old
man shoes. The interrogator said he wasn't

757
00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:54.199
buying it, and at that point
Angela said, I'm done talking. You

758
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:59.519
can talk to my attorney if you
have any other questions. And I think

759
00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:02.159
that as where were we going to
end part one of this story? What

760
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:07.440
do you think so far? It's
a mess. It is a mess.

761
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:12.480
Why do you think they moved back
to piked In from Alaska? Like that's

762
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:15.119
such a major move. Yeah,
well, I think, like I said

763
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.239
in the story, I think it
was partly was financial. They couldn't really

764
00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:21.320
make ends meet. Yeah, well
they were in Alaska and they knew they

765
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.599
had jobs waiting for them back in
piked In, and it was you know,

766
00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:29.079
where they were from and where they
were comfortable. So yeah, just

767
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.840
financially, it must have been super
expensive to move back and forth and they

768
00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:37.719
left all it must have purchased new
belongings in Alaska, and I just I

769
00:59:37.719 --> 00:59:39.480
guess, yeah, don't. I
don't know what stuff they left in piked

770
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:42.760
In at their old house. It
might have just been you know, a

771
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:46.119
bunch of junk or you know,
things like that. But yeah, it

772
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:51.119
didn't seem like a very good move. We'll be sure to come back next

773
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.360
week for part two, and if
you would like to hear part two right

774
00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:58.599
now, you can join us on
Patreon at patreon dot com slash Love Mary

775
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:04.440
Kill dollars a month for early ad
free access and a monthly bonus episode.

776
01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:09.199
Wait, so if I joined Patreon
dot com Love Mary Kill, do I

777
01:00:09.239 --> 01:00:15.440
not have to record episode two with
you? That will be magically bear AD

778
01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:21.039
free offer does not apply to you. I'm so sorry. Would you record

779
01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:23.199
an episode without me? I do
it all the time. Didn't you know

780
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:29.840
you do it? Wouldn't be surprised, You're so sneaky. I think you

781
01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:32.639
would probably hear about it from one
of our listeners. They'd be like,

782
01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:37.440
this episode was so fad, is
it? You know? People want different

783
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:42.599
things from podcasts. Some people like
a solo hosted podcast. Some people don't

784
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:45.840
want to hear me blaberon and I
totally understand. I mean, listen to

785
01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:50.559
what gives you joy, right right? So, there is a line in

786
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:58.639
your your episode about old man chose
one of arguments we ever had, which

787
01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:01.159
looking back, was so stupid.
You know what I'm talking about? Of

788
01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:05.880
course I know the old man's shoe
argument. How can I not know that?

789
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:09.400
Because we've really only had, I
mean, in our million years together,

790
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:13.920
a handful of really bad arguments.
I would say this was pretty early.

791
01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:16.119
This was early because you were young. You were still in your twenties.

792
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:19.519
Was it before we were married?
It was either right, I don't

793
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:22.440
know, but I remember you were
like he was, I don't know,

794
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:25.159
twenties. I bought a pair of
shoes. You bought a pair of Rockport

795
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:29.599
because I wanted walking shoeses. I
wanted a pair of shoes for walking,

796
01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:34.840
walk and get exercise. I was
really maybe like, those are old man's

797
01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:38.880
shoes. I was like, they're
comfortable shoes, and I want comfortable shoes

798
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:45.519
for walks, like Nikes are pretty
comfortable, like Port. Oh that's yeah.

799
01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:47.400
It turned into a pretty bad fight. Well, I think even at

800
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:51.960
this age you would like, I'm
not buying Rockport walking. Would you at

801
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:53.960
this age if they were comfortable?
Of course I would. To me,

802
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:59.320
that is the most important thing when
you're buying a pair of shoes for exercise.

803
01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:01.840
It's how come like they were for
exercise? You were wearing them when

804
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:06.480
you know we went out or something
they were for I bought them specifically for

805
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:08.320
walking. I'm sure you were wearing
them at other times too, and I

806
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:12.639
was probably like twenty three and I
was like, I'm not hanging out with

807
01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:16.360
a guy who was wearing rock port
walking shoes. I have since given up

808
01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:21.360
with you and fashion, but it's
a while to get you to give up.

809
01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:23.000
But I know I haven't really given
up. I think you are.

810
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:25.880
I mean, you buy all my
clothes, so I really have no I

811
01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:31.280
don't really you kind of have uniforms
like we have. But anyway, I'm

812
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:35.599
not picking on you. You're a
lovely man and you're very handsome, like

813
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:37.639
you're picking on me. I mean
I was pick on you for this.

814
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:43.679
It's not like I have. I
don't mind major fashion plates. Oh you

815
01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:50.440
are a fashion icon. I mean, I wouldn't say before we go,

816
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:53.320
we should tell our viewers about a
documentary. We've been watching a true crime

817
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:57.599
documentary. A lot of people have
probably seen it because it's really well known,

818
01:02:57.639 --> 01:03:01.320
but on Hulu, and it is
about Sherry Peppini. Cherry Peppini,

819
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:06.519
I want to say Panini, but
it's Puppini. Yes, she's a nightmare,

820
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:09.000
total nightmare. The good thing about
it is no one gets killed in

821
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:14.159
the story. True we were going
to cover. I started working on it,

822
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:15.920
and then I thought, well,
I don't know how people heard this

823
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:19.360
story too much, but you had
never heard of it. I I it

824
01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.280
sounded familiar, but I didn't remember
anything about it. But it was a

825
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.039
really really, it's really well done
interesting story. Yeah. I don't know

826
01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:28.679
how much. You don't want to
reveal a whole lot, but she is

827
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:32.920
a nightmare. Yeah, something wrong, because it's doubly subscruously something wrong up

828
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:37.480
there in her head. Well,
you watched the last part without me because

829
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:42.159
I was busy working on something,
and yeah, so I don't want but

830
01:03:42.199 --> 01:03:45.119
I know you kind of know how
it happens yet, Yeah, you were

831
01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.400
happy with the whole I would definitely
recommend it. It was very well done

832
01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:52.360
documentary and it was interesting like they
had people who are very close to her

833
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:58.639
were interviewed in the documentary, including
her sister and her husband at the time,

834
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:02.159
and so it was really you got
to hear a very close perspective of

835
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:06.559
her and kind of her mentality,
which made it really interesting. So highly

836
01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:11.400
recommended. Yeah, Well, thank
you so much for listening and hanging out

837
01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:15.519
with us for this hour. Please
rate, review, follow and subscribe,

838
01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:19.400
find us on social media, or
send us an email at lovemarykill at gmail

839
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.559
dot com. And I would say
we love getting your emails. We've said

840
01:04:23.559 --> 01:04:27.239
it before, but we really do. And if you go to Instagram or

841
01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:30.159
Facebook, we will be posting pictures
of this case. I think, especially

842
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:35.159
because there's so many people, it'll
be easier to keep it straight. Yeah,

843
01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:38.880
probably a good idea, just to
look at the pictures while you're listening.

844
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:42.800
Yeah, And I had to google
Angela Wagner to see what she looked

845
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.519
like because she is a real piece
of work. She is a piece of

846
01:04:45.519 --> 01:05:17.320
work. Until next time, don't
kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

847
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:24.559
To complete the compu