The Piketon Massacre - Part 2

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.200
Hi. I am Rich and I'm
Tina. And if there's one thing we've

2
00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.519
learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your

3
00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:10.480
husband, and some days you'll feel
like killing your wife. Welcome to love,

4
00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:28.559
Mary Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich, How are you today? You

5
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.480
know I've been better? Oh I'm
sorry. Sorry, what's going on?

6
00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:35.159
Just some allergies, sore throat,
out of congestion. That's a bummer.

7
00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:39.520
And I feel bad because I feel
like the smell of the Skyline chili that

8
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:44.560
I served you yesterday is still lingering
in the air of our studio. I

9
00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.679
can't really smell it. Oh that's
good. Is it really? It's good

10
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.079
that you can't. Yeah, it
might be my imagination. I think it's

11
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:55.880
probably your imagination. Maybe it is. But I brought you some different snacks

12
00:00:55.880 --> 00:01:02.079
today, hopefully a little bit better. I brought you a veritable Morgas Board

13
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:07.959
of International Snacks. Cool. Yes, he's a bit recent trip. So

14
00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:12.439
my colleague Fernando, he lives in
Spain, and he brought me a couple

15
00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:15.480
of snacks here. I don't know
how to pronounce this, but I think

16
00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:21.319
it's basically pork rinds. Oh is
it chick ronis, I don't know,

17
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:26.920
it's it's Theresno's. I'm I'm going
to butcher this. So you are our

18
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:33.719
Spanish expert. I'm gonna let you
pronounce it. Well. Spanish is pretty

19
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:41.760
like fanatic. Yes, so Chresno's
days zero. Yeah, it's brilliant.

20
00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:44.359
Yeah, it's definitely pork rinds.
Yes, I think it's pork rinds.

21
00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:48.439
And then, as you know,
I stopped in Iceland briefly. I was

22
00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:52.200
only there for like an hour,
but I picked up some snacks from Iceland.

23
00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.159
I brought you lava cheese crisps is
everything, and it's all about the

24
00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:02.519
lava. These are sour cream an
onion flavor cheese crisps. So I brought

25
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.919
you that. And then I brought
you a candy bar an Omnam chocolate from

26
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:15.039
Raykivic and this is a sea salt
and chocolate. And then last weight had

27
00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.319
a huge lunch. I brought you
these. They look kind of like malt

28
00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.240
like whoppers or multi milk balls,
but they are toffee filled red. No

29
00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:28.000
idea how to pronounce the name.
It's Joma Kulu or something like that.

30
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.960
So we also brought home some lava
salt which we used on our popcorn last

31
00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:36.000
weekend, and that was really good. Yeah, all about the lava?

32
00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.479
All right, do you want to
try it? Sure, we'll be back

33
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:49.479
in an hour and a half.
Could I eat all these snaps? How

34
00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.199
did you enjoy your smorgas sport of
international snacks? That was a lot of

35
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.719
snacks. That was a lot the
pork rinds. So anyone who has done

36
00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:02.360
the kto diet like I did for
a time, you can eat pork rinds

37
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.360
on the diet because they're not many
of your herbs. Yeah, and oh,

38
00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.840
I just I just really can't really
eat them anymore. It's been years

39
00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:15.199
since I did that. The candy
bar was good, but there is a

40
00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.400
little bit of a weird aftertaste,
Like the chocolate was really creamy and nice.

41
00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:21.319
But so what I learned, I
wish I had known this before I

42
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.719
bought it. But the candy bar
is called lacris plus sea salt, and

43
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.240
lacriss is apparently the Icelandic word for
licorice. Oh, I put licorice in

44
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:36.680
everything. It's really well. Remember
a while back when we had a Danish

45
00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:39.560
case and we had licorice powder and
we put it on apples, and I

46
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:44.120
thought it was pretty good. Actually, it's not like black licorice. It's

47
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.240
not Anna's flavor. It's licorice.
So yeah, yeah, I don't know.

48
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:49.800
I thought it was good, but
there was a little I thought it

49
00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.680
was going to be I don't know, charcoal or something. Lava. The

50
00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:59.800
lava cheese was good, but it
tastes just like the cheese wisps I think

51
00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.719
that we get once in a while
from Costco yep. And what else?

52
00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:08.840
Oh the other the little coffee those
were amazing. I really liked them.

53
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.919
They're like a milk dud, but
really hard and sometimes you just don't know

54
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:16.079
if it's not fresh. And is
that why it was so hard because it

55
00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:20.319
took like a good ninety seconds to
chew it. Yeah, I don't know.

56
00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:23.279
It was good though. Well,
thank you very much. Those were

57
00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.920
good snacks. And thank you Fernando. Yeah, thanks for Fernando. And

58
00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.079
we need to go to the post
office because I think we have some I

59
00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.600
know we have some boxes waiting for
us there. Our friends at Severed,

60
00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.680
which we haven't talked about the Severed
podcast, but we'll talk more about them

61
00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.959
later. If you haven't listened to
them, they do a great job,

62
00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.759
very detailed cases, and they sent
us a gift from New Jersey which I'm

63
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:47.879
really excited to open. And yeah, yeah, we'll go pick it up

64
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:51.560
after if we're done. Okay,
should we get back into the piked in

65
00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:56.319
massacre? We definitely should? Yes, would you will? If you haven't

66
00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:59.240
listened to part one, you should
definitely go and do that. But would

67
00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.040
you like to give us a short
synopsis of part one? Well, you

68
00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.040
wrote it out for me, so
sure. Eight members of the Roden family

69
00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:10.720
and the small town of Piketon,
Ohio were all killed and one night at

70
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.560
four different locations. The victims were
all shot in cold blood, execution style.

71
00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.480
There were three young children of the
scenes who were left physically unharmed,

72
00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:24.759
including Hannah Mae Roden's five day year
old daughter Kylie. A few days after

73
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:30.800
the murder's Attorney General Mike DeWine revealed
that there were significant marijuana growing operations at

74
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.720
three of the crime scenes. This
led to speculation that the murders were drug

75
00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:39.639
related. Over time, though the
investigation focused on the Wagner family, Billy

76
00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.519
Angela and their two adult children,
George and Jake. Billy Wagner had been

77
00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.920
close friends with Chris Rodin Senior,
and allegedly the two had worked together to

78
00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:53.600
sell drugs. Billy and Angela's son, Jake Wagner, had dated Hannah May

79
00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:57.759
Roden and the two had a daughter
together, Sophia, who was two and

80
00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.399
a half at the time of the
murders. The Wagner's moved to Alaska,

81
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.720
and while they were gone, investigators
searched their former property and found a receipt

82
00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:09.399
for two pairs of shoes that match's
shoe prins found at one of the crime

83
00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:14.360
scenes. Surveillance footage from Walmart showed
the mom, Angela Wagner, buying the

84
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.959
shoes shortly before the killings. Angela
Wagner was very controlling and was convinced that

85
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:24.360
Jake and Hannah May's daughter was being
molested in the road and home. Do

86
00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.120
you think she really thought she was? To me? It's not clear whether

87
00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.759
she really believed that or whether that
was just a way to manipulate her family.

88
00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:35.800
The Wagners decided they needed to get
custody and tried to trick Hannah Mae

89
00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:41.240
into signing over custody, as they'd
previously done with their son, George's ex

90
00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:47.600
wife, Tabitha, and that child's
name was Bolveen Bolling. Hannah may knew

91
00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.439
how they had tricked Tabitha before and
messaged a friend that she would never sign

92
00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.279
any custody papers. In her words, quote, They'll have to kill me

93
00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.959
first. When we left off at
the end of part one, the Wagners

94
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.480
had just moved back to piked In
from Alaska. Before I get back into

95
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:08.519
the story, I have to say
that one of the children in the story

96
00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:14.279
is named Brentlee, and I called
Brentley Bramptlee in all of part one,

97
00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.199
and I feel very embarrassed about that
because I try to get names right.

98
00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:21.319
So my apologies for that. By
the time the Wagners got back to Ohio,

99
00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:27.279
public sentiment had turned against them.
Everyone in Pike County believed the Wagners

100
00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.879
had killed the road In family.
People would hurl accusations, insults, and

101
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:35.720
even soda bottles at Angela when she
was out at the store. Angela decided

102
00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:41.319
she needed to make a statement on
her Facebook page quote, Hannah was a

103
00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.120
daughter to me. I loved her
dearly. Her loss still hurts to this

104
00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.319
day, especially when I see her
every day and my granddaughter. We did

105
00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.879
not do anything to hurt Hannah's family. We want justice just like everyone else.

106
00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:57.519
It is real disturbing. If you
really want to know what you guys

107
00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:01.720
are doing. Your accusations now will
hurt Sophia later in life when she really

108
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.519
understands what happened. Let's try to
find the real monsters who done this unquote.

109
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.439
The Wagners were becoming more and more
paranoid with good reason. When investigators

110
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:16.360
found out that Jake and George were
getting a job as truckers, they asked

111
00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.000
the trucking company for permission to include
a recording device in their trucks so that

112
00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.439
they could hear every word they said
to each other or on phone calls.

113
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.920
Oh wow, and the trucking company
agreed. Holy cow. The family was

114
00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.919
fairly cautious because they believed they were
being listened to, but investigators did get

115
00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.879
a few interesting nuggets of information from
the recordings. On May thirty first,

116
00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.480
twenty eighteen, Angela said to Jake, quote you, Jake, you made

117
00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:46.000
ninety percent of our plans. Okay, ninety percent of them. You guys

118
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.320
made those. I followed your decisions, Jake. Don't make it look like

119
00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.440
I'm the bad guy. Unquote.
You had said in the previous episode that

120
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.799
Angelo was very controlling in the family, and it's hard to believe that she

121
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.200
let them make ninety percent of the
decisions. Yeah. I think so too.

122
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:07.080
I know Jake was also controlling,
and he was the one that probably

123
00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.679
had the biggest motive because he was
the one that would wanted to get custody

124
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.840
of Sophia. But angel to Yeah, because Angela kind of thought she was

125
00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:18.159
Sophia's mom. Yeah. I think
we'll get more into it, but I

126
00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.360
think the question of who was the
mastermind who went along with this, I

127
00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:26.039
think those are all really good questions. On June ninth, twenty eighteen,

128
00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:31.480
the Wiretap picked up a conversation with
Angela where she said, quote, we

129
00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.000
got to figure something because I'm just
going to tell you something. We're running

130
00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.039
on borrowed time. I have the
feeling that we are absolutely running on borrowed

131
00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:43.960
time. Unquote. Jake responded,
Mom, you're paranoid. On June thirteenth,

132
00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:48.480
Angela said to George, quote,
if they arrest you, don't sign

133
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.279
nothing, don't say nothing. Unquote. George responded, quote, I love

134
00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.759
you, but I don't think it's
me. They're going to arrest mom.

135
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.399
Everything they're trying to point out is
all on Jake, so they're probably going

136
00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:05.639
to arrest fun mess. It is
a mess. So it remind me of

137
00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.000
their ages, Like the parents are
both like in their forties and Jake is

138
00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.840
he's pretty young where he's like twenty
one maybe Yeah, at the time of

139
00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.279
the killings, George was twenty four
and Jake was twenty three, So at

140
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:22.279
this point a couple of years after
that. Finally, two and a half

141
00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.639
years after seven road In family members, along with Hannah Gilly, were killed

142
00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.120
in cold blood, the investigative team
was ready to show its hand. In

143
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.399
November twenty eighteen, they made not
one arrest, but six six. Billy

144
00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:41.360
Wagner was pulled over and arrested while
driving a horse trailer near Lexington, Kentucky,

145
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.080
where he was taking a horse for
treatment. Angela Wagner was arrested at

146
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.720
her home in Pike County. George
and Jake Wagner were working together on their

147
00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.919
long haul trucking route when they were
pulled over and arrested. And then Billy's

148
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.960
mom, Frederica Wagner, was arrested
at the Flying w Farm, and angela

149
00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.639
mom, Rita Joe Newcombe, who
we haven't mentioned yet was arrested at her

150
00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:09.039
home. The arrests were well planned
and orchestrated, occurring at separate locations,

151
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.200
but all within minutes of each other. Holy cow. So they did it

152
00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:18.639
quickly so the family members wouldn't have
an opportunity to communicate. Yeah, warn

153
00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:20.480
each other, and yeah, it
was really well well orchestrated, like I

154
00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:26.720
said, Billy Angela, George,
and Jake were each charged with eight counts

155
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.679
of aggravated murder, conspiracy, and
engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity.

156
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.639
Frederica was charged with obstruction of justice
and perjury. They claimed that she had

157
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.960
lied to a grand jury about two
bulletproof vests that were found in her home.

158
00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.559
Investigators believed that the Wagners, who
had done the actual shooting had warned

159
00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.519
bulletproof vests while committing the murders,
and Frederica had lied about where she had

160
00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.840
bought them from, but it was
later determined that she in fact bought them

161
00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.840
after the killings because she was worried
that someone would come after her family,

162
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.799
and that she had most likely just
been mistaken when she told the grand jury

163
00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.879
she bought them on Amazon when she
actually got them on eBay. So in

164
00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:13.200
June of twenty nineteen, all the
charges against Frederica were dropped. Angela's mom,

165
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:18.840
Rita Joe Newcomb was charged with forgery, perjury, and obstruction of justice.

166
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.080
Rita was a notary and it was
determined that she had helped to forge

167
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:28.240
custody documents which appointed guardianship of Sophia
to Jake in the event of Hannahme's death.

168
00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:35.320
At the arraignment, prosecutors said they
believed the Wagners started planning the murders

169
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.759
of the Rodent family four months in
advance. Even before that, they had

170
00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:45.399
started conducting what basically amounted to surveillance
on the Rodent family. They had passwords

171
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.679
to hack into the Rodent's personal computers, phones, and social media accounts.

172
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.399
They use cameras to spy on the
Rodents. They were obsessed with the idea

173
00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.120
that Sophia was being abused and they
needed to get custody of her. When

174
00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.600
they were in jail, were they
jailed together, No, they were all

175
00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:07.799
in separate locations. In early April, they made homemade silencers and purchased ammunition,

176
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:13.720
a magazine clip, a bug detector, and materials to make brass catchers,

177
00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.960
which are basically bags that attached to
the side of a firearm to catch

178
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.559
spent cartridges. These must not have
worked very well though, because there were

179
00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.720
spent cartridges found at the crime scenes
from all three guns. But I didn't

180
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.600
know that was a thing. I
didn't either, I'd never heard of that

181
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.440
before. So there's a piece of
equipment that I can detect bugs. Yeah,

182
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:37.600
I think it basically is looking for
like the ra signals that listening devices

183
00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.279
emit. I would like to get
one. Yeah, it's probably not an

184
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:45.399
we stay at an ARABNBA. I'm
always afraid that there's a camera, but

185
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.120
I guess that that's probably different than
a bug detector. Well, if the

186
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.720
camera is transmitting video somewhere, then
it would probably work. But yeah,

187
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.799
not a bad idea. But it
just goes to show you how like careful,

188
00:13:56.039 --> 00:14:00.720
how carefully planned this whole thing was
the fact that they're they thought about

189
00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:05.120
that like maybe there's a listening device
at one of the crime scenes, and

190
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.120
they wanted to make sure there wasn't. I mean, they were really cautious

191
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.519
about everything. Well, what is
kind of surprised? There were no surprising

192
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.519
at four different locations, and there
were no surveillance cameras, Yes, it

193
00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.320
is a little bit surprising. Also, a day before the murders, the

194
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.759
Wagners drove two and a half hours
to a Walmart and bought a particular type

195
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.879
of boots that were known to be
worn by James Manley, Chris Roden,

196
00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.279
Senior's former brother in law. It's
not clear exactly what they did with these

197
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.080
boots, but it seems like their
plan was to lead investigators astray and get

198
00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.480
them to look at James, which
is exactly what happened in the beginning.

199
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.759
James was the one who found Kenneth's
body, and he was the one they

200
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.000
gave a lie detector test to and
all this. So I'm not sure exactly

201
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.840
what the deal with the boots was, but it seemed like they were even

202
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:54.080
trying to plan to point the finger
at someone else. When there was surveillance

203
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.720
video of Angela purchasing boots from Walmart, w she was purchasing shoes. Those

204
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.559
were different, different shoes. Yeah. While the Wagners were now all under

205
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:09.720
arrest and being held in four separate
county jails without bail, the prosecution still

206
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.480
couldn't say exactly which member or members
of the family pulled the trigger. To

207
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.399
get a conviction on aggravated murder in
Ohio, you just have to be able

208
00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.440
to convince a jury that the defendant
was actively involved in the planning of the

209
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.039
crime. But the cases would be
much stronger with more detail. So the

210
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.679
prosecution was hoping they could get at
least one of the Wagners to take some

211
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.879
type of a deal. But before
we get to that, a slight rabbit

212
00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.200
hole on two scandals that might impact
the ability to get convictions. First,

213
00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:43.519
we mentioned earlier that all of the
trailers and campers where the Rodents lived were

214
00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:48.799
taken to a warehouse on a fenced
in property, not only the trailers in

215
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.759
Camper, but also a bunch of
vehicles that had belonged to the Rodents and

216
00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.759
other potential evidence. Someone tipped off
a reporter with Fox nineteen News out of

217
00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:02.159
Cincinnati that there was very little security
at this warehouse, which is really a

218
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:06.759
violation of policing one oh one.
You have to maintain a chain of custody

219
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.159
and tightly control access to any evidence. A reporter went to the site and

220
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.120
confirmed that, yes, it would
have been easy for anyone to jump the

221
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.720
fence and tamper with any of the
evidence contained inside. Not only that,

222
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.679
but the warehouse at the site was
home base for two local companies, meaning

223
00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.360
there were employees going in and out
of the building on a daily basis,

224
00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:33.279
that is DUTs. The reporter sat
down with Sheriff Charlie Reader to ask him

225
00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.840
about this. He claimed that there
was a camera system inside the building monitoring

226
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.039
the trailers and other evidence, but
otherwise he refused to provide any more specifics.

227
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:48.519
Worse yet, Sheriff Reader tried to
get the story buried by offering exclusive

228
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:52.960
access once the case was resolved.
The reporter was outraged. This wasn't the

229
00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.919
type of deal that reputable journalists would
agree to, and he had never even

230
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:03.679
been approached with an offer of this
type. This story ran in September twenty

231
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.440
sixteen and led to speculation that this
would be used by the defense to cast

232
00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.359
out on any evidence that was presented
in the case. As former Hamilton County

233
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:17.720
Prosecutor Mike Allen said, quote,
any evidence that they would pull out of

234
00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.279
that thing would be virtually useless.
You can walk straight through the gate there

235
00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.200
and over the fence. Any old
man like me can get over that thing

236
00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.000
in twenty seconds. Did anyone tamper
with the evidence that you know about,

237
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:34.680
not that we're aware of. Another
scandal involving Sheriff Reader came to light several

238
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:41.079
months after the Wagner's arrests. In
June twenty nineteen, Reader was indicted on

239
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.480
eight felonies and eight misdemeanors. He
was accused of conflicts of interest, stealing

240
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.920
cash seized during arrests, and tampering
with evidence. Reader allegedly had a gambling

241
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.599
problem and was embezzling to feed his
habit. The indictments claimed that he had

242
00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:03.039
taken fifteen thousand dollars in seized funds
on one occasion and seven thousand on another,

243
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.599
in addition to borrowing six thousand from
employees working at the sheriff's department.

244
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.599
You imagine asking your employees, Hey, could you loan me a few thousand

245
00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:17.160
dollars, I'll pay you right back. Well, and when cash is seized

246
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:21.559
from a drug raid or whatever,
it is just put into evidence, right

247
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:22.640
just sitting there. I mean,
I think so. And if it's a

248
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.960
small county sheriff's department, I'm sure
it wouldn't be that difficult for the sheriff

249
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.599
to, you know, dip into
that a little bit me take it.

250
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.680
A couple of twenties out of them? Yeah, who's going to know.

251
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:38.400
Reader's arrest came after an anonymous tip, followed by a year long internal affairs

252
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:44.880
investigation. Reader denied the accusations,
posting on social media quote, this is

253
00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.359
nothing more than a political witch hunt
where the prosecutor is attempting to do everything

254
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:53.279
in his power to sink my boat. Always a witch hunt, isn't it.

255
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.519
It took some time, but Reader
was eventually suspended, and finally,

256
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.880
in September of twenty twenty, he
struck a de where he pleaded guilty to

257
00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:07.799
five of eighteen criminal charges in exchange
for the other thirteen being dropped. That's

258
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.599
a lot of dropped charges. As
part of the deal, he was terminated

259
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:17.200
from his position as sheriff and barred
from ever holding public office again in Ohio.

260
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:22.079
At his sentencing hearing in March twenty
twenty one, Reader broke down crying

261
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.559
as he begged the judge for mercy. He said he wanted to see his

262
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.119
son graduate high school, attend his
daughter's wedding, and become the husband he

263
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.000
had never been to his wife,
Ramona. Poor guy, poor guy,

264
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.480
He apologized, for shaming the badge, hurting his family, and abusing the

265
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:41.880
trust of the community. He said, quote, your honor, please don't

266
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.079
send me to prison. I have
wronged, but I am not ruined.

267
00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.799
I still have a lot of good
left in me. End quote. So

268
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.799
being a sheriff, you know,
he probably sent a few people to prison,

269
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.039
So I can imagine going to prison. Yeah, not a pleasant experience

270
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.680
for sure. The judge asked him
why he took the money, and Reader

271
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:02.960
claimed that it wasn't actually for gambling. He said he used the money for

272
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:08.960
charity, likely start right, to
plant memorial trees, to pay to have

273
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:15.680
his cruisers washed at school fundraisers,
and so on. I needed that twenty

274
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.799
thousand dollars to give to the band's
car works, right, he said.

275
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:25.359
He always planned to replace the money
eventually, Oh my gosh. In the

276
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.680
end, he was sentenced to a
total of six years on the felony charges

277
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:33.200
and six months on the misdemeanor,
but because some of the sentences would be

278
00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:37.920
served concurrently, the real sentence was
about three years. While none of Charlie

279
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.759
Reider's wrongdoings were directly related to the
Rodent murder investigation, it was another thing

280
00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.359
the Wagner's defense team might use to
instill some reasonable doubt in the minds of

281
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.480
jurors. The prosecution tried to downplay
the scandal, saying that Reader hadn't had

282
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.160
much direct involvement an investigation. He
was only there as the local face of

283
00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:02.559
the investigation, which was managed and
driven by the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigations,

284
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.359
so there shouldn't be any impact on
the prosecution. Legal experts disagreed,

285
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:12.960
however, saying that Reader's indictment and
subsequent conviction could pose a serious obstacle to

286
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.119
the Wagner's prosecution. I mean,
I agree, anything that you can point

287
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.119
to, Oh yeah, I mean
for reasonable doubt, and for sure it's

288
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.440
a pretty big one. It seemed
like the best possibility for understanding exactly why

289
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.599
and how the Rodent family was killed, and the best possibility of getting convictions

290
00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:33.799
would be to get at least one
of the Wagners to talk. As the

291
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.400
saying goes, there is no honor
among thieves and in this case, murderers.

292
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:45.000
Unfortunately, although they were a tight
knit family, the Wagner's unity eventually

293
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.279
broke down. Would you turn on
me, well, if he did something

294
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.839
really bad? Maybe, well,
if we were in it, if we

295
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:56.279
were in cahoots. If we were
in cahoots, I would totally stand by

296
00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.599
your side. The first of aold
was Angela's mom, read A Joe Newcombe,

297
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.680
in December twenty nineteen. She wasn't
directly involved with the killings, so

298
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:07.640
she couldn't offer any information on that
front, but she did agree to cooperate

299
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:12.920
with investigators. In place of the
original charges a forgery, perjury, and

300
00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:18.880
obstruction of justice, she agreed to
plead guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of

301
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.720
obstructing official business. She said,
quote, I just feel that it's not

302
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.079
a good Christian thing to lie,
and I couldn't live with it no more.

303
00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.119
End quote. Kind of makes me
wonder though maybe she should have thought

304
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.599
that when she actually did the forgery, that that wasn't a good Christian thing

305
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.599
to do. But do you think
she knew about the plans to murder eight

306
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.880
people? I doubt it. I
mean, I suppose it's possible, but

307
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.279
I sure would hope not. I
hate to think that other people would know

308
00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:48.359
about that and rightly say anything.
Yeah, it's pretty horrible. Jake was

309
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.359
the next to fault. Oh,
I'm surprised. He was certainly facing the

310
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.839
death penalty if convicted, as were
the other members of the family, so

311
00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.000
he took a plea deal in exchange
for his cooperation and a guilty plea on

312
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.160
the twenty three charges he was facing. That death penalty would be taken off

313
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:08.720
the table. Not only that,
if the prosecution was satisfied that he testified

314
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.599
truthfully in the trials of his other
family members, the death penalty would be

315
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:17.480
off the table for them as well. Jake may have felt like he was

316
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.559
saving the lives of his family by
taking the deal that he did. It

317
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:23.759
was unusual to have a plea deal
that would take the death penalty off the

318
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:29.400
table for all of the accused,
but it wasn't admission of sorts that the

319
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.519
prosecution's case wasn't actually very strong.
They may have needed this to ensure that

320
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.599
all four of the Wagoners would be
punished for what they had done. It

321
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:42.680
is pretty surprising, I'm for a
crime of that sort where eight people are

322
00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:48.519
eight people were gunned down with malicious
intents. Yeah, but I think without

323
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.839
making a deal like this, I
think it would have been I mean,

324
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.240
I'm not going to say what actually
happened we'll get to that, but I

325
00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.559
think it would have been really hard
to get a conviction. There wasn't enough

326
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.000
evidence, you think. I think
it would have been pretty weak. If

327
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.599
Jake followed the guidelines of his plea
deal, he would be sentenced to life

328
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:08.480
in prison without the possibility of parole. But his sentencing won't happen until all

329
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.400
the cases are adjudicated, which is
still not the case at the time we're

330
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:19.119
recording this really really, Holy Moly. In April twenty twenty one, at

331
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:23.759
the hearing where Jake entered his guilty
plea, prosecutors stunned the courtroom when they

332
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:29.759
revealed that Jake had been cooperating for
some time. Anne had revealed how the

333
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.000
family had disposed of the guns used
in the killings, leading to their recovery.

334
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.720
The guns had been encased in concrete, poured into five gallon buckets,

335
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:44.599
and then given to an unsuspecting family
member as boat anchors. Holy cow,

336
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.839
these people are they thought this through. The anchors were later cut from the

337
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.680
rope they were attached to and dropped
into a pond at the Flying w Farm

338
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:57.640
owned by Frederica Wagner, where they
were retrieved by divers. Investigators chipped away

339
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.480
the concrete and were able to match
the weapons to the markings found on the

340
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:07.079
shell casings at the crime scenes.
Well that's some good police work. So

341
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.400
remember in the Scott and Lacy Peterson
case, like he allegedly had made boat

342
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:19.640
anchors with concrete. But then I
think I thought that the anchors disintegrated in

343
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.240
the saltwater. Oh that case,
maybe that was the case that like in

344
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.559
saltwater, maybe they would probably more
likely to disintegrate in saltwater. It was

345
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:33.319
also revealed at this hearing that Jake
confessed to personally killing five of the eight

346
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.640
victims himself, while his dad,
Billy, was responsible for the other three

347
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.039
murders. We'll learn more about the
details about who did what on the night

348
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:45.400
in question in a little bit.
At the end of the hearing, Jake

349
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.680
was given the opportunity to speak.
He simply said, quote, I am

350
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:53.880
deeply and very sorry. Jake was
not the last of the Wagoners to take

351
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:59.359
a deal. Next was Angela in
September twenty twenty one, five months later

352
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.519
after Jake entered his guilty plea.
While it could be argued that Jake's deal

353
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.440
was not great, life without parole
instead of the death penalty. Angela,

354
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.160
in our opinion, got a way
better deal than she deserved. Angela claimed,

355
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:15.680
and it was corroborated by Jake,
that although she was involved in the

356
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.200
planning of the killings, she didn't
go along the night to actually carry out

357
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:23.079
the murders. She said that she
stayed at home with the kids, Bulvine

358
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.920
and Sophia while Billy, George,
and Jake went out to shoot the Rodents

359
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:30.799
in cold blood. She kept her
husbands and sons phones with her, even

360
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:36.039
texting some friends of her sons on
their behalf to make it seem like they

361
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.839
were home. But she didn't actually
pull the trigger on any of the shootings.

362
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.559
But isn't that like if you hire
a hit man, you know you're

363
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:47.480
yeah. And like we said earlier, to be convicted of aggravated murder in

364
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:49.400
Ohio, you don't have to have
pulled the trigger. You just have to

365
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.920
have been involved in the planning,
which she clearly was. Because of that,

366
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.279
prosecutors were willing to remove the aggravated
murder charges against her and agreed to

367
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.119
a deal in exchange for pleading guilty
to lesser crimes, cooperating with authorities,

368
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:08.039
and testifying against her husband and sons. Angela would get a sentence of thirty

369
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:14.240
years without the possibility of parole or
early release. It's still thirty years in

370
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:18.160
prison. But for Angela there is
at least a possibility of seeing her grandchildren

371
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.759
again someday, although I cannot imagine
that her grandchildren would have any interest in

372
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:26.480
seeing her once they find out what
she did. Yeah, she will be

373
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.400
in her mid seventies if she gets
out of prison. So did George pull

374
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:34.359
the trigger? According to Jake,
No, George did not pull the trigger.

375
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.000
But we will get into George very
quickly here because he is going to

376
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:41.799
be the first one to actually go
to trial. Okay. Angela claimed that

377
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:48.759
she suggested that Billy turn Chris Roden
Senior into authorities for drug trafficking instead of

378
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:53.079
killing the family. Billy scoffed at
that suggestion, though the Wagners had a

379
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:57.599
deep distress for law enforcement, so
turning someone in like that was unthinkable.

380
00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:03.240
So Angela said, fine, you
figured out. Then the two Rodents who

381
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.039
didn't take a deal were the father, Billy and George, the oldest son.

382
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.079
We're not sure about Billy, but
George may have believed he could convince

383
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.400
a jury that he was much less
involved than his brother or father. He

384
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.079
decided to take his chances at a
trial, and we will get to that

385
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:32.880
right after a break. George's trial
finally took place in September twenty twenty two.

386
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:37.920
George was facing eight counts of aggravated
murder, and as we mentioned earlier,

387
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.519
to be convicted of aggravated murder under
Ohio law, you don't have to

388
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.960
have pulled the trigger. You just
have to be complicit. The defense's strategy

389
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.720
was clear from their opening statement.
George's attorney said, quote, George didn't

390
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.799
have a motive in this case.
Jake and Angela have destroyed this man's life

391
00:28:55.880 --> 00:29:00.440
unquote. He claimed that the prosecution
was relying on the fact that George was

392
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.599
a wagoner and that the jury would
find him guilty by association. The defense

393
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.160
also argued that there was no evidence
linking George to the crime scenes. The

394
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.319
two shoe prints could have been Billy
and Jake. They just didn't know.

395
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.480
There was no DNA, no fingerprints, or anything else that put George physically

396
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:22.519
at the crime scenes, and there
was no evidence that George was even aware

397
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.599
of the plot. All they had
was Jake's word, and Jake was an

398
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.720
admitted killer trying to save his own
life. George, they argued, was

399
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.240
the good hearted black sheep of a
bad family, So a white sheep,

400
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:40.960
yes. George's ex wife, Tabitha
testified, giving jurors a picture of the

401
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.400
Wagner family's home life. Remember that
she had lived with the Wagners and saw

402
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.200
how controlling they were, not letting
her go out or see her family,

403
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:53.519
and forcing her to give them access
to her online accounts. Elizabeth Armor,

404
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.880
Jake's ex wife from when they lived
in Alaska, also testified about the nightmare

405
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:04.440
she experienced being married into the Wagner
family. Tabitha and Elizabeth together helped establish

406
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:08.160
the fact that the Wagners did almost
everything together. They went to the store

407
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.400
together, they ate dinner together,
they went for walks together, they made

408
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:17.079
decisions together as a family. They
wanted to establish how unlikely it would have

409
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.680
been for George to have been the
one person left out of the loop in

410
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:25.880
the planning and carrying out these killings. One key piece of evidence that tied

411
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.559
George directly to the planning of the
crimes was his credit card transaction history.

412
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.039
He had purchased a phone jammer a
month before the homicides. This is a

413
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.799
device that would jam one's ability to
call nine one one or to make other

414
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:44.039
calls. George's attorney argued that his
mom, Angela, had access to all

415
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.359
of the family credit cards, she
paid the bills, and it was common

416
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:49.839
for them to use each other's credit
cards, so there was no way to

417
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.640
be sure that it was actually George
who made this purchase. This family is

418
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:59.200
so weird, they really are.
Jake's testimony was the first big moment in

419
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:03.000
the case, testifying against brother.
It had all the makings of high courtroom

420
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:08.279
drama. Unfortunately, the judge gave
witnesses the option of being recorded or not

421
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:14.119
during their testimony, and Jake opted
out, so we don't have any actual

422
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.880
audio of his testimony. Jake testified
that he truly believed that his and Hanname's

423
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:25.440
daughter Sophia was at risk that the
guys Hanname was dating were molesting Sophia.

424
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.480
He knew Hanname would never sign papers
giving up custody. Angela actually had Hanna

425
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:36.119
May's Facebook password and saw the message
that she had sent saying she would never

426
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:40.759
sign papers and that they'll have to
kill me first. Jake decided there was

427
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.240
no other choice but to kill Hannah
May in order to protect his daughter.

428
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.039
His first plan was to kill Hanname
and her boyfriend Corey and try to make

429
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:52.039
it look like a murder suicide.
His father, Billy, convinced him that

430
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.799
they needed to kill the entire Rodent
family, though otherwise they would suspect the

431
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:02.440
Wagoners and take revenge. Six people
were the actual targets that night. Hannah

432
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.920
May because she had to be killed
in order for Jake to get custody of

433
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.880
Sophia. Chris Senior because he was
the patriarch of the family and would be

434
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000
likely to seek revenge if he believed
the Wagners were responsible. Dana and Chris

435
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:22.440
Junior were targeted because they had witnessed
Jake's violence against Hannah May. Dana had

436
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:28.319
actually confronted Jake after one particular incident
where he had threatened to kill Hannah May.

437
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.400
Frankie was targeted because the Wagners believed
he would have figured out it was

438
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:37.000
them who did the killing and they
couldn't take that chance. Chris Senior's brother,

439
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:43.279
Kenneth was targeted because he had retaliated
on Chris Senior's behalf in the past,

440
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.640
he had to be killed otherwise the
Wagners believed he would seek revenge.

441
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:54.480
That's just horrible and irrational. And
yeah, this whole plot is just it's

442
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.519
just it's wanted to kill as many
people as they could. It sounds like

443
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:02.160
remind us of the evidence that Sophia
was molested. There was little to no

444
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:06.079
evidence. Well, Angela, there
was no evidence that we know of.

445
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.519
Angela made some claims. She said
that her crotch was read and irritated and

446
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:14.200
that she had behavioral issues when she
would come back from the rodents. But

447
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.799
that was just her word, right
in custody agreements, kids always come home,

448
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.240
you know, grumpy and tired.
Yeah, you're going from house to

449
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.279
house and you're gonna be grumpy and
probably have behavioral issues. Small children,

450
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.720
you know, get irritated easily,
as she could have had too much juice

451
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.920
or whatever. Right, the Wagners
were aware that there would likely be collateral

452
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.319
damage. They agreed upfront that anyone
else who was at the scenes other than

453
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:45.319
young children would have to be killed
as well. So Frankie's fiance Hannah Gilly

454
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:50.160
was killed only because she was there, and Chris Senior's brother Gary was killed

455
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.359
only because he happened to be staying
with Chris Senior that night. Jake said

456
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:59.359
they actually expected there would be more
collateral damage. Chris Junior often had friends

457
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.039
sleep over. The only reason he
didn't that night was because he was grounded.

458
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:07.240
Hannah May's boyfriend, Corey, would
have also likely been with her that

459
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.000
night, but he was at his
sister's house helping her fix a pipe that

460
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:15.079
burst. In the end, Hannah, Gilly and Gary Roden turned out to

461
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:20.480
be the only two quote unquote collateral
damage victims unlucky enough to be in the

462
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.559
wrong place at the wrong time that
night. Said there's any good news out

463
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:28.360
of this case, it's that they
didn't kill the babies. Yeah, I

464
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.840
thank thank Goodness for that. I'm
now going to go through the details of

465
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:37.039
what Jake testified happened on the night
in question. Just a warning before I

466
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.079
get into this, some of this
may be disturbing. In the late evening

467
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:45.000
hours of April twenty first, twenty
sixteen, Billy, George, and Jake

468
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:50.400
set off in their pickup truck toward
Chris Roden Senior's property. Before getting there,

469
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:52.440
Billy pulled off the road and said, last chance, guys, we

470
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:55.760
could still back out of this,
Jake said he wanted to go through with

471
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.960
it. Then Jake said that he
and George hid to get in the false

472
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:05.159
bottom of their pickup truck. I
haven't seen any pictures of this false bottom

473
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.079
pickup truck, but I'm thinking they
were like lying flat and there was like

474
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:14.280
a false bottom truck bed like over
on top of them. Wow. Billy

475
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.239
drove with the first stop being Chris
Senior's place. Their plan was that Billy

476
00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:22.880
would ask Chris Senior to come out
so they could talk about an upcoming drug

477
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:27.280
deal they were working on. Then
Billy asked Chris to call his cell phone,

478
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.159
saying he'd lost it. Chris called
Billy's cell phone, which Angela answered

479
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.000
back at the Wagner house. The
idea was that the cell towers would place

480
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.239
Billy's phone at home at the time
of the murders, giving Billy an alibi.

481
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:45.239
You might have mentioned this in part
one, but Billy and Chris they

482
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:47.360
were friendly and they worked together on
drug deals. Yeah, they were actually

483
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.559
good friends, and allegedly they worked
together on drug deals because Billy drove a

484
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:59.440
truck and Chris grew marijuana, so
they would work together to transport the marijuana

485
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.679
and sell it in other places.
So after Billy got Chris Senior to come

486
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:08.519
out of his trailer, the plan
was for George to use the SKS rifle

487
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:14.880
with the makeshift silencer to shoot Chris
just like a sniper. But George froze,

488
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.599
so Jake took the gun from him
and fired, hitting Chris Senior in

489
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:23.000
the arm. Billy then shot Chris
with the forty block pistol, and as

490
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:28.880
we mentioned earlier, Chris Senior actually
had nine gunshot wounds. Apparently it was

491
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:34.440
Billy who shot him the seven additional
times after these first two shots. After

492
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.480
killing Chris, Billy went in and
shot Chris's brother Gary three times in the

493
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:43.000
head. Jake said that when Billy
emerged from the house, he was very

494
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.519
nervous and emotional, almost having a
panic attack. Jake told his father to

495
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:50.880
calm down because it was too late
to freak out about it. Now they

496
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.800
had gone this far, they had
to keep going. The next stop was

497
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:58.320
just up the road, at the
house where Dana Rodin lived with nineteen year

498
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:02.000
old Hannah May and sixteen years old
Chris Junior. Jake said that he went

499
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.239
in and killed all three people at
this location by himself. He entered through

500
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.599
the front door and first shot Chris
Junior, who was in bed sleeping.

501
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.719
Then he went to Dana's room.
She was lying in bed looking at her

502
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:17.880
phone, and he shot her.
Lastly, he walked into Hannah May's room,

503
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.400
where she was sleeping while nursing her
newborn baby, girl, Kylie.

504
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.199
He said she woke up and saw
him standing in the doorway, but didn't

505
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:30.800
immediately recognize who it was. In
the darkness, he fired, shooting her

506
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.320
twice in the head. After he
killed her, he said, he rearranged

507
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.559
her body so that the baby could
continue to nurse. A guy. Then

508
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:42.079
he walked back into Dana's room and
shot her three more times and placed a

509
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:46.079
pillow over her head. I'm not
sure they made homemade silencers, and I

510
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:51.000
don't know how well silencers typically work, but it kind of surprised me that

511
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:53.639
he was able to go into this
trailer, which I'm sure is not a

512
00:37:53.719 --> 00:38:00.639
huge, you know, building,
and shoot three different people without the others

513
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:04.480
waking up or kind of hearing what
was going on. That probably happened so

514
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.719
quickly. Yeah, Yeah, And
a lot of times you hear gunfire and

515
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.840
you think it's fireworks or something else
right. The third stop was the place

516
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:16.039
that twenty year old Frankie shared with
his twenty year old fiance Hannah Gilly,

517
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:20.800
his three year old son Brentley,
and the couple's six month old boy,

518
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:24.760
Ruger. Jake entered their home through
an open window, walked into their bedroom

519
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:29.360
while they were sleeping side by side, and shot them both several times in

520
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:34.000
the head. The final stop was
Kenneth Roden's camper. At this location,

521
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:37.000
Billy went in alone and shot Kenneth
once in the eye while he was sleeping.

522
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:43.280
I never saw an explanation as to
why Billy scattered dollar bills over Kenneth's

523
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:46.239
body. I imagine it was to
try and throw investigators off track, maybe

524
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:51.559
to make it seem like the killings
were drug related. A few other notes

525
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.280
from Jake's testimony. Shortly before the
night of the shootings, Jake and George

526
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.519
dyed their hair darker, apparently to
look more like Jake's idol actor Norman Ritis

527
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:06.559
of the Walking Dead TV series and
the movie Boondock Saints. They also watched

528
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.440
a scene from the Boondock Saints movie
where two brothers kill people to get themselves

529
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:15.800
psyched up. Before committing the murders. Jake said his father was upset with

530
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:17.800
him and George for dyeing their hair, saying, quote, when you want

531
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:22.599
to hide from someone, hide in
plain sight unquote. Jake said he decided

532
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:27.400
to take the plea deal after his
grandmother, Rita Joe Neukomb, took her

533
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.559
plea deal and said that it was
the Christian thing to do. Jake said,

534
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.559
quote, it felt like the answer
I was looking for at the time,

535
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:37.960
an answer from God. It was
weighing on me unquote. I'm sorry,

536
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:44.000
I've just rolling my eyes so hard, I know. Jake testified that

537
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.760
at some point after the killings,
his dad asked him if he regretted it.

538
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:51.280
He told his dad he did not, but he only said that to

539
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.840
make his dad feel better. If
his dad felt like what they had done

540
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:59.800
wasn't worth it, Jake was afraid
that his dad would take his own life.

541
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:02.599
Times during Jake's testimony, he looked
right at his brother George, but

542
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.199
George would not look Jake in the
eye. He simply looked down at his

543
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.599
notes anytime Jake looked over in his
direction. The other highly anticipated witness in

544
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:16.239
the trial was Angela. George and
Jake's mom. She testified about the planning

545
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:21.280
of the murders, which was really
triggered by the Facebook message that Hannah May

546
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:25.840
sent saying she would never sign custody
papers. Angela had become almost obsessed with

547
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:30.599
the idea that Sophia was being abused
and they had to protect her by getting

548
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:35.119
custody. It was almost like a
group psychosis, with Angela taking the lead

549
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.119
and getting her boys riled up and
believing it as well. There was an

550
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:44.960
Excel spreadsheet introduced into evidence that contained
five hundred and nineteen entries related to child

551
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:51.639
custody, things like messages and screenshots
from Facebook. The Wagners were obsessively cataloging

552
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.559
any information that might help them get
custody. Angela said that she and the

553
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.519
rest of the Wagners distrusted the justice
system, so instead of telling authorities about

554
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:05.719
their suspicions of abuse, they decided
to take matters into their own hands.

555
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.280
We should know it, as we've
talked about it before, but there's absolutely

556
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:14.599
no evidence that Sophia was being molested. It is possible that Angela really believed

557
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.679
it. She had suffered abuse when
she was growing up, and she seemed

558
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.159
to see abuse everywhere, even if
it wasn't really happening. Or It's also

559
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:27.159
possible that she may have used the
accusation to get her boys to rally around

560
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.360
and support the murders so that they
could get custody, so we'll never know

561
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:35.800
for sure which one is true.
Angela said that Billy directed her to buy

562
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:38.199
a cell phone, jammer, bug
detector, and cheap shoes to wear the

563
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:43.199
night of the killings. She also
created, with help from her mom Rita,

564
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:47.760
documents with forged signatures that would grant
Jake custody of Sophia in the event

565
00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:52.480
of Hannahme's death, and a similar
document to grant George's sole custody of his

566
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:58.920
son Bulvin. A third forged document
awarded her custody of both children in the

567
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:01.760
event of her son's death, which
I thought was an interesting little tidbit.

568
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.599
It almost makes me wonder if she
was planning to offer sons so that she

569
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:12.760
could have the kids for herself.
But I wouldn't yeah anything anything at this

570
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.920
point. Yeah. On the night
of the murders, Angela stayed home with

571
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.639
the kids. When Billy, George, and Jake left, she locked the

572
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.280
door, texted a friend of her
sons on their phones to try and establish

573
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:28.760
an alibi for them. Then she
went upstairs to sleep. She was relieved

574
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.239
when her boys all came home later
that night. I can't believe she slept.

575
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:37.159
Yeah. She also testified that George
had actually volunteered at one point to

576
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.199
take full responsibility for the shootings to
try and save the rest of the family,

577
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.159
but because he didn't really have a
motive, the family didn't think authorities

578
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.559
would buy that story. She said. She decided to take the plea agreement

579
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:52.519
in hopes of getting one last chance
to see her kids and grandkids in thirty

580
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:58.000
years. Unlike Jake, Angela didn't
look at George while she was on the

581
00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:02.039
stand. In a surprise move,
George decided to testify on his own behalf.

582
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:07.679
He basically denied knowing anything about the
murders. He said it was never

583
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.400
discussed with him and if he had
known about the plans, he would have

584
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:15.800
found a way to stop it one
way or another. George shared his views

585
00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:19.039
on his other family members, saying
that his dad, Billy, was a

586
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:23.039
good guy, but irritable and prone
to angry outbursts. Jake was a jealous

587
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:28.719
person who was greedy and selfish.
His mom, Angela was highly opinionated,

588
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.360
arrogant, bossy, and manipulative.
He said he didn't like being in the

589
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.639
house with her, but he didn't
move out because he didn't think he could

590
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:40.719
support himself financially. Finally, at
the end of November twenty twenty two,

591
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.360
the case went to the jury.
They deliberated for seven hours before coming back

592
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:51.119
with a verdict. What do you
think it was? I see the message

593
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.800
here to me. It says stop
scrolling. So I'm not supposed to like

594
00:43:53.880 --> 00:44:00.880
planning that. I mean, I
can't imagine anything other than guilty. George

595
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:05.920
was found guilty on all charges,
including eight counts of aggravated murder, conspiracy,

596
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.639
aggravated burglary, tampering with evidence,
and obstruction of justice. Although there

597
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.920
was no evidence that George was at
any of the crime scenes, there was

598
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:20.360
enough evidence that he was involved in
the planning and the cover up. At

599
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:24.559
the sentencing hearing, the judge heard
victim impact statements. Tony Roden, Chris

600
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:30.199
Senior, and Kenneth's brother talked about
how shortly after the Wagners were arrested,

601
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:35.519
the Roden family had a Christmas party. They invited Tabitha George's ex wife,

602
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:39.039
and she brought their son, Bolvin. When the family gathered for a family

603
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:44.880
photo, Tony, Chris and Kenneth's
mom, Geneva, included Bulvin, putting

604
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:47.519
him on her lap and giving him
a hug. Tony said he cried as

605
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.800
he watched the scene, saying,
quote, that was true love. Unquote.

606
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:57.519
Geneva Rodin shared a brief written statement, quote, George Wagner, you

607
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.119
are still breathing. My two sons
are not. My grandchildren are not breathing.

608
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:07.039
I would just like to see some
justice done unquote. Brentley, the

609
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.119
son of Frankie Rodin, who was
three at the time of the murders and

610
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:14.119
eleven by this point, wrote a
short statement that was read in court by

611
00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.840
his mother. Quote, I've been
scared since that night, knowing bad guys

612
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:22.519
came into my house while I was
sleeping. I'm always scared now that I

613
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:27.880
will lose my mommy. You did
that to me unquoted. Because the death

614
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.840
penalty was off the table due to
Jake Steele, George was sentenced to life

615
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:36.760
in prison without the possibility of parole
for the aggravated murder charges. He was

616
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:40.000
also sentenced to one hundred and twenty
one years for the other charges. He

617
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:45.960
has since been transferred to a prison
in Rhode Island and his lawyers are supposedly

618
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:51.800
working on an appeal. Wow the
case against Billy still has not gone to

619
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:55.519
trial. It's been delayed several times
for various reasons. The latest estimate is

620
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:00.239
that his trial will take place in
early twenty twenty five. After his case

621
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:06.320
is adjudicated, Angela and Jake will
receive their final sentencing and the case will

622
00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:08.960
be put to bed. By the
time all this happens, it will likely

623
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:14.960
be close to ten years since the
Rodent family were killed. In twenty twenty,

624
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.039
the Roden family, led by Christopher
Senior and Kenneth's surviving brother Tony,

625
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.320
filed a wrongful death suit against the
Wagoners. While Billy, Angela, George,

626
00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:27.960
and Jake didn't really have any money
to speak of, Fredrika has a

627
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.039
lot of money and land. As
we talked about earlier, she is the

628
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:37.480
owner of the Flying w Farm and
and all has more than seventeen hundred acres

629
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.599
of land worth four or five million
dollars. Frederica is in her eighties now

630
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.599
and she still runs the farm.
Speaking through her lawyer, she says that

631
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:50.519
she feels horrible about the deaths of
the Rodents, but she had nothing to

632
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:53.599
do with them, so she should
be taken off the lawsuit. But wouldn't

633
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:58.360
that be maybe their their inheritance someday
too. Yeah, I mean, I

634
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:01.679
guess it would become their inherit when
she passes away. But for now,

635
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:05.880
I can sort of understand her point. If she truly had nothing to do

636
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.159
with the murders, she shouldn't be
part of the lawsuit, right, But

637
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:13.760
I guess she could leave her money
to someone else, a charitable cause or

638
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:17.360
yeah, a distant family member.
Right. In September twenty twenty three,

639
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:22.159
the Rodent family dropped the lawsuit,
but only temporarily until all the criminal cases

640
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:27.760
are wrapped up. Their attorney has
said they definitely plan to refile the lawsuit.

641
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:30.800
These part of people like they've had
to wait so long for justice,

642
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:36.360
and really I don't think justice has
been served, But we'll talk about that

643
00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:39.639
the Yeah. An update on the
children involved in this case. Brunley rode

644
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.079
In, the son of Frankie Roden, who was three at the time of

645
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:47.920
the killings, is living with his
mother in Portsmouth, Ohio. Bulvin Wagner,

646
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:52.119
the son of George Wagner and his
ex wife, Tabitha, is now

647
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:57.159
eleven and living in with Portsmouth,
Ohio. With Tabitha, she has remarried

648
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.679
and has two other children. If
there is any silver life in the case,

649
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:04.960
it's that Tabitha again has custody of
her son, after she'd previously been

650
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.079
tricked into giving George full custody.
Ruger Rodin, the son of Frankie Rodin

651
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:13.039
and Hannah Gilly, was six months
old at the time of the slayings.

652
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.039
He was found physically unharmed, lying
between his mom and dad. His whereabouts

653
00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:22.840
have not been disclosed to maintain his
privacy, but Hannah Gilly's mother has confirmed

654
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:25.840
that Ruger is still in her life. Kylie, Hannah May's daughter, is

655
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:30.199
only four days old and lying by
her mother when she was killed. If

656
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.079
you recall, Kylie's praternity was uncertain. Jake Wagner believed that Kylie was his,

657
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.239
but she had also been seeing Charlie
Gilly and Cory Holdren. Two months

658
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:44.000
after the murders, Jake, Charlie, and Corey all took paternity test and

659
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:47.679
it was determined that Charlie is the
father who was raising Kylie, who is

660
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:52.400
eight years old now, has not
been disclosed. Sophia Wagner, the daughter

661
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:55.760
of Jake Wagner and Hannah may Roden, was two and a half years old

662
00:48:55.800 --> 00:49:00.119
when her mom was murdered by her
father. Her whereabouts and who has custody

663
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:05.960
of her have also not been disclosed. Tony Rodin has said quote, she

664
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:13.320
is very well taken care of breaking
little kids who went through all this,

665
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:19.639
And I'm sure they were traumatized by
what they saw and experienced and losing their

666
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:24.880
losing their parents and breaks my heart
as you know that people don't think about

667
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:28.880
the kids before they come at these
crimes. What if we're caught, what

668
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.880
happens to Sophia? Like, no
one wins? Yeah, exactly. I

669
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.480
have a few questions for you.
First, we've talked a little bit about

670
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.800
some of these, But do you
think that the prosecution would have been able

671
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:45.039
to get convictions without Jake and Angela
flipping? I think I have just thinks

672
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:50.519
yes, I'm just so angry that
Jake and Angela got a plea deal.

673
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:53.960
I think, out of everyone involved
in this case, Jake should not have

674
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:59.000
gotten a plea deal. Yeah,
he pulled the trigger on five of the

675
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.480
eight murders, right, and it
seems like he, I mean, even

676
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:06.719
according to his own story, he
was the main planner of the whole thing.

677
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:12.760
Yeah, right, and it's I
think that George and oh, what's

678
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.000
the da name of Billy? Billy? I mean, they were definitely culpable,

679
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:21.800
but it is sort of like backwards
And this was actually my next question

680
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.719
was are you surprised that Jake and
Angela were the ones to take a deal

681
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:28.840
and not Billy and George, because
usually you think it's the it's the lower

682
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:36.400
the lower people on the planning rung. Yeah, and so it was really

683
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:43.119
surprising that the prosecution decided to take
this course because well, as you pointed

684
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:45.079
out many times, you did a
great job in this case, which is

685
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:52.079
super confusing by the way, that
Angela and Jake were kind of selfish and

686
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.119
they were controlling. So it's not
surprising that they were the ones that would

687
00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:58.760
take the plea deal, right,
But they wanted to take charge of their

688
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.400
own fate and their own you know, yeah, trials and everything. So

689
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:06.079
but they're all horrible. They're all
horrible. They're all I mean, I

690
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:08.239
don't think any of them are redeemable. Any one of them could have said,

691
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:13.280
this is horrible, we should not
be murdering eight people, and they

692
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.719
were so arbitrary about it too.
Well, if any if anyone is there

693
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:20.239
that shouldn't be they should die too. Yeah, exactly. It's almost shocking

694
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.840
that they didn't kill the little ones. Yeah, a little bit. So.

695
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:28.119
Jake and George are both going to
get life in prison without parole.

696
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:30.960
Billy has not gone to trial yet, but I would imagine he will be

697
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:36.039
found guilty. We'll have to wait
and see. Angela will get thirty years.

698
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:40.039
Do you think do you think their
sentences are just It's hard to say.

699
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:43.639
We talk about this a lot,
like I'm not really an advocate of

700
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:47.880
the death penalty, but in cases
like this, where it's like eight people,

701
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:52.920
you wiped out a whole family,
total, cold blood, planned,

702
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.480
premeditative, what do you think?
I think? Well, I think the

703
00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:00.599
death penalty question is a separate question
altogether. I think life and prison without

704
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.840
parole is certainly the minimum that Jake
and George and Billy, in my opinion,

705
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:07.800
should get. Angela I think got
off easy. Thirty I mean thirty

706
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:12.760
years is a lot. You know, she's going to be in her seventies

707
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:15.480
if she gets out. But still, it's just that's not enough for what

708
00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:20.440
I think. She played a key
role in it. She was the boss

709
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:23.480
of the family. I can't believe
she didn't play a pivotal role and she

710
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.559
could have put a stop to it
if nothing else. Yeah, it seems

711
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:34.760
like they enjoy the planning and the
murdering. It's just it's a horrible story.

712
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.639
It really is horrible. The one
other thing I wanted to mention is

713
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:40.760
a lot of people when they hear
about this case, they think of it

714
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.199
like a Hatfield and McCoy type of
family feud, because it's definitely takes place

715
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:49.960
in the appellation. But it's really
not. I mean the fact these families

716
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:53.239
were they got along great together,
they were friends. There's photos of them

717
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:59.079
at weddings together. Chris Senior and
Billy were friends. They worked together on

718
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.159
their drugs. Treat your friends,
how do you treat your enemies? Well,

719
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:04.440
I mean, yeah, but that
is one of the bizarre things about

720
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:08.280
the story, though, is that
these people were allegedly friends with the Rodent

721
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:12.000
family and they're like, let's kill
them all just so we can. Well,

722
00:53:12.039 --> 00:53:15.440
you did a great job talking about
the family and how they were very

723
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:20.599
inclusive. They did everything together,
they planned everything together. So makes it

724
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.440
make a little more sense, like
family before everyone else. Yeah, I

725
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:30.519
guess so, but it still is
just so incomprehensible. So do they talk

726
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:34.440
to each other? Do they communicate
at all? I do not know.

727
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.119
That is a very good question.
I want to say. I read something

728
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:40.280
about one of them writing letters and
the other not responding, but I can't

729
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:43.760
remember. I might be thinking of
a different case. I would guess that

730
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.960
George and Billy they have no reason
not to talk, right right, And

731
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:52.880
Angela and Jake they might also have
a similar like oh we both Yeah,

732
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.679
that would make sense. I think
about this a lot. If you're in

733
00:53:55.719 --> 00:54:00.920
prison for a horrible crime like this, wake up every morning regretting what you

734
00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:06.039
did? Do you wake up every
morning with the resolve like I did the

735
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:09.320
right thing? What do you think? I'm sure it's different for different people,

736
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.960
but I would sure hope that you
wake up every morning regretting what you

737
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:17.360
did and a chance to redo it. Yeah. I can't imagine if you

738
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:21.559
are the wagoners, that you wake
up thinking that was a great idea,

739
00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:25.400
worked out great, you know,
I mean, nobody won in this case.

740
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:30.920
Rest in peace to all the victims
of this horrible crime. Chris Rodin

741
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.840
Senior, Dana Roden, their kids, Frankie, Hannah May and Chris Junior,

742
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.800
Kenneth Roden, Gary Roden, and
Hannah Gilly, and I really hope

743
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:46.519
the surviving children Bolvine, Brentley,
Sophia, Ruger and Kylie are all doing

744
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.199
well and that they've got the love
and the support that they need. All

745
00:54:51.280 --> 00:55:00.519
said, so, summer is.
We're in the midst of it now,

746
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:06.760
and as always, we're a little
bit of procrastinators when it comes to planning

747
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:10.039
family vacations and really bad at planning
vacations. Not bad at planning, but

748
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:14.559
I think it's just hard to nail
down time. It is because we have

749
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:19.719
two adult children who both have jobs
and we're all busy people. So we

750
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.480
are thinking about like probably end of
August of taking a family vacation, but

751
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:28.760
we haven't decided where yet, so
I want to We're also I haven't nailed

752
00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:30.079
you down on this, but where
you and I are also going to take

753
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:35.000
a trip to I think in the
early fall or midfall or yeah, So

754
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:38.079
we have a couple of different trips
that we're trying to map out and I

755
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:42.519
think we should talk about ideas of
where we can go. And honestly,

756
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:46.079
if our listeners have ideas, I
would love to hear ideas because I'm open.

757
00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:52.679
I have had several or beautiful,
wonderful, kind listeners like literally invite

758
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:58.960
us to their homes. So I
wasn't really asking for that, but you

759
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:00.519
know, if you have ideas of
great places we should go. Yeah,

760
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:05.199
Now, our vacation that we're going
to take with the kids is probably only

761
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.960
it'll be a week because everybody's schedule
is so busy, so it can't be

762
00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:12.239
like, you know, super far
away. I don't think we can go

763
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.880
to Australia and spend We're coming for
you to someday Australia. Someday we will

764
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.559
make it over there. But I
don't know, what do you what do

765
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:23.199
you think? I don't know.
Well, our kids definitely said they don't

766
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.400
want to go to They don't want
a vacation in Michigan. One of my

767
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:30.920
toxic traits is I always want to
do the same vacation we did. I'm

768
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.119
like, oh, we had such
a nice time, let's just do that

769
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:36.480
trip again. Because I really like
to go to the same places. I

770
00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:37.880
totally understand that, because like if
we go to a restaurant and I had

771
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:40.639
something good there once, I always
want to get the same thing, you

772
00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:44.480
know, you know there's probably other
good things. Well in the vacation we

773
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:49.920
took last fall when we went to
Massachusetts and that was really nice. Yeah,

774
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.039
so I would like to do that. Oh we didn't do it with

775
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.679
our kids, though, but they
would. I think they would enjoy that.

776
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:59.599
I think our kids both might want
to go to Maine. Yeah,

777
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:02.280
we've never been to Maine, and
that sounds great. In Maine. Yeah,

778
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:06.199
I had the thought that maybe we
should go to Iceland because it's actually

779
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:09.000
only a five hour flight. Me
better go and start planning that now,

780
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:13.559
because that's already a lot. All
right, Well, let us know if

781
00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:16.639
you have any great ideas for us
on where we should go. Let's go

782
00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:21.039
to Paris. We could go to
Paris. Let's go see. I really

783
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:22.559
would love to go to the Olympics
someday. And I know you have another

784
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:28.760
trip. I have a trip coming
to Paris again, that's coinciding day and

785
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.960
I told you to stay and go
see some I'm still sports. I'm still

786
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.679
thinking about it. I may try
to do that, but I love the

787
00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:39.599
Olympics so much. It just makes
me And it's just not like oh Usa

788
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:44.239
go you say. It's just there's
so many great stories of athletes who have

789
00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:50.239
overcome some horrible circumstances and they work
so hard and it's it's amazing to me.

790
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:52.280
The will and the spirit. Yeah, I love it too. I

791
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:55.719
definitely do, and I may stay. If I stay, I'll probably go

792
00:57:55.760 --> 00:58:00.320
see like table tennis or badminton or
something like that. But I don't think

793
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.000
there's a bad sport to see,
say either. I think it would be

794
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:07.199
cool whatever you end up seeing,
but you probably will not be able to

795
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:12.159
get a ticket to women's gymnastics.
No, I don't believe we did.

796
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:16.360
We're talking about this last night.
But trampoline would be cool. I'll check

797
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:22.400
into that. Yeah, I think
you should definitely definitely stay for a little

798
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:23.639
bit of the Olympics if you can. I'll see what I can do.

799
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:28.559
Can We said we were going to
rate our snacks and we really didn't do

800
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.039
that. No, we did not
do because I had too much. There

801
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:32.199
was a lot of snacks. I
don't want to do it much time.

802
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:38.079
What would you rate the the pork
rinds, the Spanish pork rinds. I

803
00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:43.800
would give them six. I would
give them two. And it's not just

804
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:47.880
because I sorry, Fernando, just
because of that. Over No, it's

805
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:52.880
okay, all right. What would
you rate the lava cheese? I like

806
00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:54.559
that a lot. I would give
that a seven. I would give it

807
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:59.519
a I would give it a seven. Took the chocolate bar. It was

808
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:01.159
pretty good. I didn't like it
a seven. I didn't like that weird

809
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:04.679
flavor to it, so I would
give it a four. Okay. And

810
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:07.239
these hard milk dudy type things.
I like to taste of those a lot,

811
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:09.840
but I did not. They were
just so hard. I didn't like

812
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:14.400
to chew them, so I would
give them a six. I give them

813
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:19.480
an eight. All right, fascinating, fascinating. Well, Please rate,

814
00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:22.960
review, follow and subscribe, Find
us on Instagram or Facebook, and send

815
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:29.480
us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail
dot com. And please consider supporting us

816
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:35.000
on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one
tier five dollars a month for early ad

817
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.760
free access and a monthly bonus episode. And if you want to send us

818
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:40.599
a snack, or if you want
to send us an old fashioned letter,

819
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:45.639
like you know, write a letter
You can then send it to LMK podcast

820
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:52.400
po box one one one Dexter,
Michigan four eight one three zero. Until

821
00:59:52.440 --> 01:00:28.440
next time, don't kill your wife
and don't kill your husband to the compat