The Whitaker Family

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's. That some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I am doing good? How are you? I am great? It is Thursday, March nineteen at four o'clock when we are recording this, and I know there's something that you're dying to talk about. Well, March madness has begun. And they don't call it madness for nothing, don't.

0:40 My bracket was busted after the very first game. I think a lot of people's were as well. But that doesn't mean that you still can't pick the winner at the end. That's right. You gave me an update that we'll talk about at the end. I know some people don't care. We had a lot of people like I don't know what a bracket is. If I did, i'd participate. So sorry we're talking about this again. We did have a lot of people sign up, which. We did it. We were so happy to see that. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun. Am I glowing today? You actually are glowing today? Am I really you look very nice? Yeah, your face looks really fresh and glowing, and. Well before we started, I told you how handsome you looked today. But do you want to tell everyone what we've been doing? I bought you for Valenti's Day. I'm not even sure. I buy my husband a gift that really for me?

1:22 Is it? It's called an anti aging mask or red light therapy red light therapy mask. Yeah, so we've both been wearing this goofy mask with these bright red lights on it, and I don't know if it's working or not, but you do. You do look very nice. Face looks grape. Sorry for laughing, It was just the way you said that my face looks great. I have noticed a difference. I know everyone's going to ask. I got the we got. I got the Omnilux for rich, but I did buy the mens because I wanted. I did want you to use it for real, and I did hear that it has a little more power to it. And I've been using it every other day and it's not like I look fifteen years younger. But I do feel probably ten. I feel like my skin looks brighter and healthier, and I feel like yours does too. For real? Yeah?

2:06 Cool, I never I don't. I don't really look at myself, so I'll take your word for it. So I wish this was a plug. I wish I could give you a coupont code, but no, we're still working on getting those red sponsors. Will be so excited when that something happens. Well, part of it is we have to put the work in and we just don't have time to seek out advertisers right now, but we'll get there. Do you have anything you want to rant about other than the NCAA tournament. Not really, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy right now. Okay, Well, I'm glad that that freeze up gives you some time. So we talked a few months ago about you wearing socks to bed, right then? Oh yeah, what do I get to say next?

2:46 Well, what happens is my feet get cold, I wear the socks to bed. Then the middle of the night, I wake up and my feet are warm, and I slide them off and they fall down on the floor and then I forget about them, and then what happens. I guess you must pick them up. Yeah, yeah, you're a really good partner and really not not much. You're not messy at all. Like you're not as tidy as you could be, but you're not messy. And you've never made me pick up like socks and under we're always good about getting in the hamper, and so now when I have to pick up socks, I'm like, oh, it's just kind of gross to pick up. So it happens in the middle of that. I always tell myself, make sure you pick those up in the morning when you go, when you get up, and I always forget. Yeah, I've noticed, it's fine, it's all right, it's just it's fine. It's just happened a lot recently and it just makes me laugh. But then it makes me also.

3:32 Well, luckily the weather it's starting to get warmer, so I think I will be shedding the socks at night. I think spring is spring, and we had our like our third what do you call it, like false spring or whatever, and so now it might be real spring. I think you think. Yeah, a lot of people were wondering about how much snow we got, because recently there are a lot of pictures that you saw of like people not being able to open their doors. That wasn't us, Yeah, that was. Again. Yeah, we haven't had snow really shovel wle snow for a couple months. Probably, Yeah, I think we're done. But they were pretty up north. They were pretty bad, brutal. Yeah, are you ready for a snack? So yesterday we were supposed to record and you weren't feeling great and you had a meeting run Lane, so we're like, oh, we'll just put it off, and you were like, I smell something.

4:22 It smelled really good. Yeah, and it was really good, but it didn't bring you any because you told me you didn't want it. But I made churo shortbread cookies with chocolate dipping sauce. I've made them for a Patreon episode before. But they're really I would say one of our favorites, but I say that about a record. They're really yummy. We'll make sure that we post the recipe. Yeah. I love cinnamon. I'm on a big cinnamon kick right now, as you know. And they were really, really yummy. Because of our new toaster, I promise we're going to wrap this up in just a second, because of some people have asked about the toaster, and I have mixed reviews about the Smeg. How about you the. Only thing I don't like about it is there's no indicator of how much how long is left.

5:02 It's very analog, and another one was more digital and you could tell like how which time you had to like cook your egg or whatever it was before the toast popped up. Now it's all a mystery. That's my only complaint though. I feel like it's not as even, like sometimes one side is less toastier than the other. So I would probably give it a three point two out of five because it's just not as consistent beautiful. I mean, she is a beautiful toaster. She shines up nicely. It's like as like an old car, like a nineteen fifties. Last thing, what would you rate the cinnamon Churo cookies. Oh? I would give them a ten out of ten. Yeah, so definitely if you like that kind of thing, I recommend it. And we will post the recipe.

5:43 Yeah. One part toast tip is I bought the and you don't think you need this, but from King Arthur Flower big a fan of all their products. I bought their cinnamon sugar and I think that's why you're on the cinnamon sugar toast kick, because it's really good. It's like called like better than cinnamon sugar or something like that. Interesting, And that's what's in the little shaker in the kitchen. Okay, so is that what you've been using? Yeah, but I just made some more because we ran out, so I didn't I didn't know you had that. I made it from scratch with cinnamon and sugar. How did you do that? For my whole life, I've been like, that's ridiculous. Why does anyone need to buy cinnamon sugar? Because all you do is but the King Arthur flower. I don't know. It's just lighter and I don't know if they hear it might be powdered sugar in it. But it's just really good. So like, okay, anyway, we're going on way too long. Let's get to the case, all right. I have an interesting case for you today. It is about the Whittaker family, and our friend Kylie from Prime Time Crying with a K recommended this case. Kylie always recommends just really good cases to us, So thank you so much, Kylie for the recommendation. Any quotations, unless otherwise noted, are from Ken Whittaker's book Murder By Family, The Incredible story of a son's treachery and a father's forgiveness. On December tenth, two thousand three, the Whittakers, a family of four, were returning from a pleasant family dinner at Papadou, a Cajun seafood restaurant, celebrating their son, Bart's imminent college graduation from

7:13 sam Houston State. They'd presented him with a Rolex watch at dinner for his perseverance and hard work. To top off the dinner, Bart twenty three, was served his favorite dessert, red pudding, the rim of the plate decorated in chocolate sauce spelling out congratulations. Art's younger brother, Kevin nineteen, a sophomore at Texas A and M, was also at the dinner. Home for Christmas break also present or the proud parents, Tricia fifty one and Kent fifty five. Before they left for dinner, they'd wrapped their arms around each other and smiled happily for what would be their final family photo in front of their fireplace. When Tricia opened the front door to their home in Sugarland, Texas, the house was completely dark. As she fumbled to turn on a light, she was shocked to see a man standing in the threshold dotting a ski mask a gun poised at her and her family. Her husband Kent, heard her say oh no, before four gunshots ring out into the night. It's shocking how fast the human brain can process information even as its experiencing unimaginable horror. Kent braced himself for the possibility of his own death and silently bargained with God to take his life and spare his wife and two sons.

8:25 As Kevin and Kent both hit the ground. Shot Are twenty three, who had been lagging behind to retrieve his cell phone from his car, darted into the house and wrestled with the shooter until he was also shot in the arm before the shooter fled out the back door. Kent woke moments later, hearing sirens in the distance. Art called nine one one from his cell phone. A neighbor heard the shots and called nine one one too. The Whittaker's friend and neighbor, Cliff, wrapped his own t shirt around the gunshot wound to Kent's arm to stanch the bleeding. Don't worry, buddy, help is on the way, Cliff reassured Kent. Soon when emergency vehicles filled the Whittaker's cul de sac. As the first responders arrived at the scene. Kent's mind was fuzzy as e MT's knelt down to tend to his family. When he heard someone say do away, his spokes sharpened. One of his family members were dead, or were all of them. He heard the whirring of helicopter blades nearby as a life flight landed. Someone told him that the chopper was for Trisha and one was coming for him. No one told him Bart or Kevin's fates.

9:29 As Kent was loaded onto a waiting chopper, he shivered relentlessly, his body and shock. Thankfully, it was only eight minutes to the Texas Medical Center, a level when trauma hospital in nearby Houston. Moments later, Bart was brought into the trauma room alongside him as the doctors and nurses attended to them. They'd both suffered broken arms, requiring surgery, Kent to his right and Bart to his left. They both were expected to make a full recovery. Kent's parents arrived shortly after. He'd gleaned enough from the conversation buzzing around him among the chaos that Tricia and Kevin were likely dead, but no one would confirm his suspicions, He asked his mother, and she couldn't say the words. Instead, she nodded her head slightly. Ken's wife of twenty eight years, Tricia, and his son were both dead. The nightmare that had just shattered his family was only beginning.

10:19 Such a chilling scene. Just that whole idea of walking into your front door and coming upon something like that. It's just a place where you feel safe. And they had an alarm system too, so interesting. I think she was just shocked that this was happening. Yeah, they all were. Sugarland, Texas, sits about twenty miles southwest of Houston and Fort Ben County. Once a company town built around the massive Imperial Sugar refinery that gave the city its name, it had grown into one of the Regent's most affluent suburbs. By the early two thousands, the refinery had closed and Sugarland had fully transformed into a master planned community of tree lined streets, golf courses, and top rated schools, the kind of place families moved poor stability and opportunity. When the Whittakers settled there in the early nineteen eighties, the population was about fifteen thousand. Today, it has grown till more than one hundred thousand, and it's consistently ranked among the safest cities in Texas, with a crime rate well below the national average.

11:20 When the Whittakers were gunned down outside their home, the news stunned the community and set ripples of shock and fear through the quiet suburb. They were convinced a crazed murderer was on the loose. Everyone who knew the Whittakers in Sugarland, Texas described them the same way, good hearted and welcoming, the kind of family people gravitated towards. Their beautiful home was a gathering place, especially for teenagers, where their kids' friends came and went freely, thinking of Tricia and Kent as surrogate parents. After the shooting, a friend told the Houston Chronicle, anybody who knows them just loves them. They were the most generous, gracious people you could want to know. Trishia went a beloved kindergarten teacher before becoming a stay at home mom and part time substitute teacher.

12:05 Kent worked as controller for Tricia's family's large, successful construction company. The two had met on a blind date and quickly bonded over their shared faith. On June twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five, Tricia twenty three, married Kent twenty six, and they spent twenty eight years together. Thomas Bartlett Whittaker, better known as Bart, was born on December thirty first, nineteen seventy nine, and Kevin Michael was born on March nineteenth, nineteen eighty four. Bartlett was Trisha's family name, so that's where Bart came from. Bart was described as a smart, athletic son, while Kevin was outgoing and popular. Kent said with pride that he'd never known anyone with a heart more like Jesus than his son Kevin. His faith was important to him, but less so for Bart, who was more concerned with his image. Kevin looked up to his big brother, but Bart seemed to envy the ease at which Kevin went through the world. Kevin had a magnetic personality and made friends easily, something that never came as easily to Bart. Tricia and Kent were deeply involved in their son's lives. Trisha volunteered at their schools, while Kent coach their sports teams. Their parents showed up for Bart and Kevin's activities and spent years building traditions with their sons, family vacations, game nights, and church functions. One of those traditions became cycling. After a neighbor was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, the Whittakers began writing to raise money for the cause.

13:28 Kent and Bart participated in the MS one point fifty, a two day ride from Houston to Austin, benefiting the National Multiple Sclerosis Society. They did the race together at least ten times. Over the years. The two logged more than twenty four thousand miles riding together, roughly the circumference of the earth. Giving back was part of who the Whittakers were. They supported multiple charities and were known in their community and church not just for this success, but for their generosity. I read a lot of things about the Whittakers, and I watched a lot of different diets documentaries about them. But Kent, on multiple occasions would say different numbers. We rode twelve thousand miles together, we rode twenty thousand miles together. So the biggest number I thought was twenty four thousand.

14:12 So whatever the number, it's a lot of mind, it's a lot of miles. The Whitakers had long been seen as one of Sugarland's most respected families, good kids, loving parents, and ardent churchgoers invested in their community. But before Bart's senior year of high school, that image cracked. Bart and several friends broke into the high school through the skylights, repelling from the ceiling and stealing computers on seven occasions. I know that sounds crazy, copelling from the ceiling. But it sounds like Mission impossible exactly. I think that's what they were doing. Bart later described it as nothing more than a stupid prank, saying they planned to return the equipment. But for Tricia, the arrest was devastating. She was deeply embarrassed and sank into a depression. Convinced the whole town was talking about them, and personally, she under where she had gone wrong as a mother. She stopped visiting the stores she had always gone to, driving to neighboring towns instead, just to avoid running into anyone she knew. I can understand her embarrassment as a parent, but that seems like a somewhat extreme reaction to, you know, start shopping in a neighboring town because you don't want to run into people, and you know.

15:19 You're not a woman, So you don't understand. Maybe I don't think I would be that embarrassed because kids will be there. Yeah, that's right, I guess that's what I'm saying. But I mean he did do it on at least seven different occasions, and I'm not sure how many computers they were. They never sold them. I'm not sure where they kept them, but he gave them back eventually. Yeah. After being expelled from Clement's High School, Bart was court ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluation. The doctor identified an underlying mental illness with psychotic symptoms, suggesting that Bart might also be experiencing delusional paranoid disorder, which she noted was being exacerbated by drug use at the time. She recommended continuing treatment and medication rather than just receiving disciplinary action from his parents. The doctor suggested that Bart manipulated her to write a favorable report so he could be reinstated to Clement's High school.

16:11 I forgot to say this at the beginning, but I read Kent Whittaker Bart's dad's book as one of my primary sources, and a lot of these things he did not mention, or did not mention in great detail. He didn't mention that he was diagnosed with this possible psychological disorder, and he talked about the computer incident but played it down quite a bit. O he was like in denial a little bit about these things. He was embarrassed. We'll talk about that morekus the case goes out, and I'll try to point out the things that he left out, because I think they're really telling okay. Bart was not reinstated and instead transferred to a private Christian school for his senior year of high school. There were no other issues that year. With high school behind him, Bart attended Baylor University in Waco, Texas, about four hours from sugar Land. He majored in criminal justice. Things were going well until the end of his sophomore year, when the Sugarland police called the Whittaker's house in the middle of the night in April two thousand and one. They had been contacted by the Waco police that Bart was en route and intended to kill his family. The Whittakers were shocked and confused. It was certainly a misunderstanding, they thought.

17:18 Over the next few days, police pieced together the events that led to the alert. Bart had argued with his roommate and a female friend who had come by the apartment while they were drinking and watching television loudly. During the argument, a segment about the Menenda's brothers came on the TV. Bart reportedly made a remark about how he'd have a better plan and wouldn't get caught if he were to kill his family. Alarmed, the young woman called the police, fearing that Bart might actually harm his family. The officers then contacted the Whittakers to warn them. When Bart learned he might be in trouble with the police again, he left Waco for two days, hoping to defuse the situation. Later, police concluded the incident was like a misunderstanding fueled by alcohol and tension between roommates and let it go. Years later, Kent realized that they should have taken this incident much more seriously, and it was one of Bart's many lies.

18:13 So the Menendez brother's excuse was Bart's retelling of what happened, and that kind of calmed the police down a little bit. But I think there was more to that story. Well, the fact that this woman felt concerned enough to call the police, it had to be pretty serious. Ye. I don't know the whole story, but I know that he was lying. Before his third year of college, Bart transferred to Sam Houston University in Huntsville, Texas, about ninety minutes from sugar Land. While there, he lived in the family's lakehouse, which was about an hour from campus. I mentioned that just because I thought it was so weird that he was living in the lake house, which was at least fifty minutes from campus. Yeah, that is instead of living on campus. Super convenient. We'll be back after a break.

19:02 As the Sugarland police started their investigation into the shootings, they found no forced entry into the Whittakers' home. There were no white witnesses or fingerprints or forensic evidence left behind, but one latex glove was out found outside near the driveway. There's always one latex glove left, fine, isn't there seems to be. The city of Sugarland offered a ten thousand dollars reward. Friends and family of the Whittakers contributed an additional thirty thousand dollars, bringing the total reward money to forty thousand dollars. I ask you a quick question just to remind me. With the shooting, the shooter was inside the house and came out of the house or shot from. I think he was near the front door, okay, and when Bart went into the house, he ran into the living room area. A couple of days after the incident, Detective Marshall Slot visited Kent in the hospital to fill him in on the progress of the investigation. He did not believe it was a burglary gone wrong. Nothing had been taken from the home, though drawers and doors had been opened to make it look like a break in.

20:06 A clock nine millimeter handgun was found lying on the kitchen floor. Kevin had kept a gun safe hidden in the crawl space in his room. The gun safe had been pried open, and the gun inside was missing. How had the killer known exactly where to find the gun. Investigators later determined that the weapon used in the murders was Kevin's gun. I couldn't confirm this, but in a lot of places I read that the gun was a gift to Kevin from Bart, which I find kind of interesting. A search was conducted at the Whitaker's home. Investigators seized electronic devices, including computers and cell phones, as well as the clothing Kent and Bart had been wearing that night, but Bart's own home and vehicle were never thoroughly searched.

20:51 He turned over two laptops while his desktop computer was left untouched. Detective Slot had some difficult news to deliver. Bart, the older son, the one who was about to graduate from sam Houston State, had not been enrolled at college that semester at all. He was not about to graduate. In fact, he was on academic probation and only had enough credits to qualify as a freshman with a GPA of one point four one. Ooh, so, I guess being the lake House, being an hour away from campus wasn't such a big deal after all for him if he wasn't going to school. Kent's blood ran cold at the news. He wheeled himself down the hall to his son's hospital room to find him asleep. He woke him and angrily demanded, what were you thinking? Bart apologized profusely. He said he'd taken the semester off to work and planned to finish his degree up in the spring. Do you have any idea what you've done? Thanks to this little lie about graduation? The police think you're a suspect. In fact, right now you seem to be their only suspect. You weren't in school.

21:53 You told everyone you were graduating, and they think you were ranged to have us killed to cover it up. Can you see how stupid that was? Your lie has done the impossible. It has made Mom and Kevin's deaths even worse because the police now think you were involved. Do you have any idea how bad this is? Bart said, yeah, that's nuts. I didn't have anything to do with the shootings. I'm sorry about the lie. It just happened. I didn't mean to lie to you and Mom. I was just afraid of what you would say, and I didn't want to disappoint you. This will be okay. Kent was right. The police narrowed their suspicion on Bart, but his father was determined to help him and prove his innocence. He leaned heavily on his face to get him through this impossibly dark time. But one thing that comforted him was that he had no doubt that Tricia and Kevin would enter heaven and he would join them one day. Remember, as I'm telling you this story, that Kent is an exceptionally religious man, and he obviously was upset about his son and his wife. But because you know, he had this vision of them being in heaven and they were safe now that he might not have had had as much green as other people would. If that sounds that is.

23:03 An interesting point, like I wouldn't I wouldn't expect a very religious person would have less grief, but they would probably feel like, well, they're in a better place, and so they might take more comfort in that in knowing that. A few days before Christmas, the police asked Kent and Bart if they would come in for a light detector test to clear them in the investigation, and they agreed. Kent was happy to be able to clear their names, but the test was canceled and never rescheduled. I'm not sure why that happened. While Kent and Bart were recovering in the hospital, one of Bart's friends, Adam Hipp, contacted the Sugarland Police with troubling information. He told investigators that two years earlier, Bart had asked him to kill Tricia and Kent, promising him a share of his inheritance. The plan was eerily similar to what had just happened. The family would be out to dinner, the shooter would lie in wait, and Bart would be shot in the arm to make it look real. At the last minute, Adam said he backed out. A variation of the plan involves said the lake house ablaze while Bart's family was there for a weekend, but Bart nixed the plan worried that they might be able to escape the fire and their deaths would not be guaranteed. Another murder plot had been foiled in December two thousand. Bart had recruited two college friends, Will Anthony and Justin Peters to kill his parents, but the plan fell apart when Will tried to climb into the house through a bathroom window and accidentally triggered the alarm, scaring him off. Adam hip agreed to cooperate with the police and wear a wire while he made some phone calls to Bart in an attempt to get him to

24:34 say incriminating things. Adam said, I really just got a question, you know, as far as about what we talked about in the past. Bart replied, I haven't said a word about that, and I never will. I would never have been involved in anything to hurt my brother. All they're really concerned about now is mistakes I've made in my life. They're not looking where they need to be looking. I have come up with what I hope is essentially a good offer for you. I just want to make it worth your while. They agreed on the sum of twenty thousand dollars. Bart sent Adam and envelope containing about two hundred and fifty dollars, promising more later where the return address goes. He had written, kay Sosey. What were they agreeing to do here?

25:14 He was paying him off for twenty thousand dollars. He wouldn't say anything else to the point, oh, just to. Keep quiet about yeah, okay, gotcha. But obviously Bart didn't know that he was wearing a wire, and he had already communicated right all of those things to the police. And kay SoSE is a reference to the usual spect I'm guessing a great movie. The Whittakers were a beloved family in the neighborhood where they'd live for twenty years. On December fourteenth, as Kent and Bart were driven home from the hospital, they were touched to see their neighbors had tied yellow ribbons to the trees that lined their street. Their loving neighbors had even pitched in to replace the carpet on the first floor of their home that had been bloodstained in the chaos of the shooting. The friends had painstakingly moved all of the Whittaker's belongings, even an eight foot Christmas tree decorated by Tricia for the Carbet installation, and replace them.

26:02 They filled the refrigerator to the brim, and a constant stream of visitors kept Kent and Bart distracted from their grief. Kent was uneasy about returning home, worried the killer might come back. His friends took turns sleeping on their couch until he began to feel grounded and safe. There again, what a nice group of friends. Yeah, that's super nice. And Trisha had, before her death, decorated the house for Christmas one last time. It must have been so hard to come home. Yeah, to that, absolutely, and I totally understand. Is the feeling of not being safe in your home, especially with the killer was out on the loose, and it's just such a scary feeling. When I was younger, my apartment got robbed once, nothing like nothing to compare to this, but I felt really unsafe in my apartment for months after that, just because knowing that someone had violated that space.

26:49 The funeral for Kevin and Trisha was held at Sugar Creek Baptist Church. The largest in the area. Over two thousand mourners packed the church. As kent entered the building, he thought back fondly to Kevin's high school graduation that was held there a handful of years earlier. Kevin wasn't a stellar student. He ranked in the middle of his class. He hadn't earned any cords to wear around his neck for academic achievement. Like many of his friends, he loved practical jokes and to make people laugh. The crowd noticed that as he walked up to accept his diploma and shake the superintendent's hand, he had draped a six foot extension cord around his neck. Pretty funny. That was pretty funny. For the funeral, the church was beautifully adorned with the two caskets heavily covered in flowers.

27:33 In the center of the dais. Law enforcement had covertly placed microphones among the blankets of flowers to capture any confessions or incriminating conversations. You're about them doing that a lot at funerals. I wonder if that's full, But there was Bob's funerals. I think it has. Really that's interesting, not inactic. The Winnakers were deeply devout Christians. Everyone except Bart, who was far less engaged in religion. For most of his life, Bart resisted the face his parents held so tightly they wanted him to be a Christian. He felt the pressure and pushed back. But in the weeks after Tricia and Kevin's deaths, something shifted. Each night Bart and Kent sat down together eating dinner, reading scripture, talking through passages from the many spiritual books that filled their home. Kent saw himself as his son's guide, believing what Bart needed most was to accept Jesus into his heart.

28:26 To Kent, it felt like they were growing closer, but in the months and years that followed, he would begin to question how well he had ever really known his son. On New Year's Eve, as two thousand and four began, there was a bit of happy news for Kent. Bart proposed to his girlfriend of five years Lynn. She accepted, They planned to marry that July, and remind me his mom and brother were killed. She re killed on Decever tenth. Okay, so just less than a month before that. Right, and Bart's birthday is on New Year's Eve too, so he turned twenty four on New Year's Eve. Kent Whittaker had always considered himself a strong supporter of law enforcement, but he was equally determined to stand by his son. As the investigation unfolded, He even hired an attorney, a family friend, Dan Cogdell, to represent him in case he was called in for questioning or arrested. As the weeks passed and police failed to name a suspect, Kent began to worry that investigators were quietly building a case against Bart while overlooking other possibilities. He had warned Bart that leaving the state or country was akin to admitting guilt.

29:30 There were a few incidents that troubled him and that he urged police to examine more closely. On the same night the Whittakers were attacked, a man had robbed a house while wearing a ski mask and gloves. The robbery occurred just two miles from the Whittaker's home. He took his own life after police cornered him, but before doing so, he called his girlfriend and told her that he had killed someone that night. The man was later identified as twenty two year old Latham Brown. Police used snifferdogs to link him to the glove left at the Whittaker's home, but the dogs didn't alert, but Brown had been wearing two gloves and had used his own gun to shoot himself, so he was never considered a viable suspect.

30:11 If you remember, the gun that killed Tricia and Kevin was left in the kitchen of the Whittaker's home. Okay, Another detail nagged at Kent. A young woman who had once been interested in dating Kevin had been turned down after Kevin told her he didn't want to risk their friendship. She had a jealous boyfriend, and on the night of the murders, Kent noticed her standing outside with a group of Kevin's friends. What struck him was how quickly she had arrived after the shooting. Could either of them have been involved, Kent wondered. The police assured him they were investigating all leads. Investigators weren't overlooking other suspects. Within days, their focus had narrowed, and it kept coming back to Bart Whittaker. Once they learned he had lied to his parents about graduating, they saw a clear motive begin to take shape. The threat hadn't come from outside the home. It had been much close us all along.

31:01 Because Bart had been plotting to kill his family, Kent wasn't supposed to survive that night, but once he did, witnesses claim that Bart still considered killing him. Bart continued living with Kent in the home he had grown up in, giving up his house in Montgomery and moving back in with his father. In June. Bart's wedding was only weeks away. The big day was set for July twenty fourth. On the seventh, Detective Marshall Slot of the Sugarland Police Department contacted Kent and asked him to come to the station for a meeting. Instead, Kent asked to meet at his lawyer's office. Slot delivered a troubling message that he had been sitting on for weeks. He told Kent he was concerned for his safety and didn't believe it was wise for him to continue living with Bart. Investigators, he said, had uncovered information suggesting that Bart had tried to arrange the murders of his family more than once. They thought it was possible that he would strike again. In the days immediately following the murders of Tricia and Kevin, Kent had been believe there was only about a five percent chance that Bart was involved, but on this day, for Kent, he thought there was a fifty to fifty chance that his son had murdered his wife and younger son. A few days later, Bart's fiancee, Lynn called Kent in tears.

32:15 Police had contacted her warning that they didn't believe she or her family were safe, and they asked to meet with her. While the Whittakers were financially comfortable, Lynn's family was very wealthy, and investigators were concerned that Bart might target them. Next, Kent spoke with Bart, and the two agreed that with the possibility that Bart could be arrested at any moment, it would be best to postpone the wedding. Kent told his son to set up a meeting with Lynn and her parents, but Bart didn't arrange a meeting. Instead, on June twenty seventh, two thousand and four, he told Kent he was meeting up with some friends at a bar and later spending the night at Lynde's house. He'd see him the next night at dinner. It was the last time he saw his son for fifteen months. The next morning, police called Kent after discovering Bart's two thousand and one Yukon suv abandoned in a parking lot in the CD part of town, with the doors open and the engines still running.

33:10 Why do you think Bart did that? I think he was trying to make it look like he was kidnapped or something. Maybe I think he was hoping that someone would take his Yukon and strip it for parts, and then no one would know where the car was. Kent immediately feared Bart had made a run for the border, but at that point he hadn't technically done anything illegal, although he'd stolen ten thousand dollars from his father. Kent tried calling Bart's cell phone relentlessly, but there was no answer. He suspected Bart had already ditched it. Desperate, Kent left messages begging him to come home. Instead of reporting him missing, Kent chose to wait, hoping that Bart would return on his own. Kent's belief that Bart was involved in the murders went from fifty percent to eighty percent. Quote by the time that he actually ran, I was probably eighty percent believing that he was responsible. But I wasn't going to desert him anyway. He's my son. After Bart was gone for about ten days, Kent received a letter in the mail. Father, so many things to say, and yet I cannot seem to find my words. I am leaving despite the advice I have been given. The reasons are many, and I am not going to waste the time writing them all. Just know that I cannot will not allow anyone else to pass through the fire of coming weeks with me. I must do this with God and no one else. If the sins of my life must go on, that I must start anew completely, anew. Know that I love you and that I go with God because of what you have taught me in the last few months.

34:39 I am sorry. I love you. Bart. Ps. The longer you can give me before you release this information, the better for me. Please help Lynn. She will need it. Lynn was his fiance. So this letter came ten days after he disappeared. Had Kent reported it to the police yet or still not? No? He hadn't. Wow, And it is kind of weird that they is addressed father. Yeah, I think this seems very formal. In the coming days, Kent, along with Lynn's family, sent out an email officially canceling the wedding. Even if Bart returned, against the odds, there would be no wedding. On July seventh, Kent finally reported Bart missing and held a press conference asking the public for help finding him, but no leads came in. Bart had simply vanished. Bart's attorney told the media that he had fled because he was worried that he would be unjustly charged, and that he was following God's plan for.

35:30 Him and amazing how attorneys can spit anything. Yeah. Finding that he could no longer handle stress the same way as before the murders, Kent stepped away from his construction company and began volunteering and fundraising for a local ministry that helped those in need. Again. This is one of the things in his book, the way he said it was like, I just couldn't handle the stress of the job. But his book is telling because he never talks about the Bartletts, Trish's family. He never names them. He'll just say Trish's family. So I think that the relationship had begun to deteriorate, and that's why he left the construction company. Okay. In December two thousand and four, the Sugarland Police, who had been very tight lipped about the investigation, announced that Burglary was not the motive for the Whittaker shooting.

36:16 They knew the motive but did not want to reveal it. They did admit that they had recovered the murder weapon at the scene. They didn't reveal the actual motive, but named bart Whittaker as a person of interest. Quote, Bart Whittaker is someone that we believed to be involved in this case, obviously because he was there at the time it happened. So it really was that really is sort of a nothing burger there. I mean, it's kind of implying that they view him as a suspect. But yeah, the way they ordered it, it's like, well, he was involved because he. Was there and he is missing, right, So this is a year after the murders, and really the public still didn't know a lot. They didn't have a lot of information. Soon after, Kent was subpoenaed by a grand jury. He called it the worst day of his life, being hounded by the media, being questioned about his son aggressively, and finding out more secrets his son had kept from him.

37:08 It's interesting that he calls that the worst day of his life. Yeah, that is a little bit odd. We'll be back. After a break. In September two thousand and five, a tip led authorities to Mexico, where Bart Whittaker was living. Under an assumed name. He was working as a bricklayer and picking up odd jobs at a furniture store, even dating his boss's daughter, Cindy. She later told Forty eight Hours that Bart seemed charming and friendly. Her father described him as hard working and obedient. The family liked him, and Bart appeared to feel the same. He told them that they were the family he never had, but much of what he shared wasn't true. Bart claimed that he'd been injured fighting in Afghanistan, explaining the scar on his arm is a battle wound. He told him that he was an only child, that his family had never loved him, and that his mother was a sex worker.

38:06 According to Bart, his family had given him money, but never affection. Again, none of this was in Kent's book. And the fact that he told people that his mother was a sex worker, she was, by all accounts of lovely woman and she did not deserve that, and that would have really hurt her so much totally. On September twenty third, just as Hurricane Rita was bearing down on Texas, Kent received a call from Detective Slot. After fifteen months on the run, fifteen months, I mean that's a long time, right, now that really is. Bart had been detained by Mexican authorities and would be extradited back to Texas to face trial. Kent wasn't surprised. Ten days earlier, two of Bart's friends had been arrested. Christopher Brisheer was taken into custody by the Sugarland Police Department and identified as the gunman who shot the Whittakers. Two days later, Stephen Champagne was arrested.

39:00 Once in custody, they began cooperating with investigators. Bascher told police that in the early stages of the plan, Bart had first asked about killing his brother, not his parents. All three men were charged with capital murder. Under Texas law, you don't have to pull the trigger to be charged with capital murder. If you plan or carry out a crime that leads to someone's death, you can be held just as responsible as the shooter. That means that the getaway driver in this case could face the same charge as the gunman. While Bart was back in Texas, Kent was allowed a quick visit through thick glass. He'd never again be allowed to hug his son. Bart all but confessed tearfully, apologizing, vociferously claiming that his time in Mexico had given him the perspective he needed to come to terms with what he'd done. Kent thought he was a changed man with renewed faith in God. But Kent knew by now that there were still buried secrets that would come out at trial that would once again destroy him. Quote.

40:00 He exhibited calmness, peace, and a humility that had not been present before his flight to Mexico. All of us who knew him saw it. If only the prosecutors could have seen these changes to this day, I believe if they had, the fiasco would have ended within weeks of Bart's arrest. He could have pleaded guilty to a modified charge that spared his life and avoided a trial, if only the prosecution could have spent time with him. Ulick cynical over there are do you not believe that Bart has seen the way? Well, God, No, If he had really seen the way, he wouldn't have waited to be caught. He would have turned himself in. So yeah, I can't said. Can't said he was just waiting. He was ready, but he was waiting and just waiting for the right moment. So what really happened on the night of December tenth, two thousand and three. To understand that we have to go back in time a bit.

40:48 Bart hadn't attended classes at sam Houston State University for more than a year. Each semester he doctored his grades, so it looked as if he were thriving academically. Bart was a really smart kid, and he had all the potential in the world to succeed academically. But he just, for whatever reason, you know, wasn't going to class and studying. So for a while he lived at his family's really nice lakehouse, but then Tricia and Ken bought him a small place of his own. Instead of going to college, Bart worked as the food and beverage manager at a local country club and did a lot of partying. He met Christopher Prisheer and Stephen Champagne. While working at the country club, Bart confided in his friends how much he hated his family. He hated sugarland and a conspicuous consumption of his parents and the other affluent families there. His brother was just like his parents. All they cared about was God. The only way he could live freely on his own terms was if they were gone, and he stood to inherit at least one and a half million dollars.

41:48 Over time, Bart began formulating a plan. He promised his friends a lot of money if they helped him kill his family, though in the end neither of them ever received a dime. Forsher agreed to be at the shooter and Champagne would drive the getaway car. Art drew them a diagram of the house and mapped out exactly how it would go down. On the night of December tenth, two thousand and three, Art was sure to unarm the security system and leave the back door unlocked. Champagne dropped Chier off while the Whittakers were out to dinner. Brashier slipped inside and went straight to Kevin's bedroom. He found the gun safe right where Bart had said it would be, and pried it open with a crowbar. Wearing gloves, he took out the nine millimeter glock handgun. To make the scene look more like a burglary. He opened drawers and doors around the house and then waited. Meanwhile, Steve Champagne kept watch from nearby, communicating with Bart and Brasher throughout the dinner. Earlier that day, he had stolen a license plate and placed it on his mother's Toyota Camri to avoid detection. When he saw the Whittakers leaving the restaurant less than ten minutes from their home, he alerted Brasher, and then he followed them. As the family returned and opened the front door, Braschier stepped out of the shadows and opened fire. Tricia, Kent, and Kevin were all shot. Bart, who had deliberately hung back behind the others, then rushed forward and staged a struggle with him. As planned, Brasher shot him once in the left bicept, a wound meant to make it look like he was another victim. Then he fled out the back door and left the gun

43:18 behind in the kitchen. He leapt over the fence unnoticed and found Champagne waiting for him in the getaway car. They escaped into the night. The plan unfolded almost exactly as intended, except Kent Whittaker survived. Forshier had even used hollow point bullets to ensure the shots would be fatal, but Kent's gunshot hadn't landed as planned. Had the bullet hit just a few inches to the left, he likely would have died as well. Champagne drove Rasher to Bart's house, where he showered and changed out of his bloody clothes. They gathered all the incriminating evidence and placed it into two Duffel bags, then threw them into Lake Conroe before they went to a bar and got very drunk with cash stolen from the Whittaker home. Because there was no fingerprint evidence, police use scent dogs to test if the glove from the crime scene contained either Basher or Champagne's scent.

44:09 The dogs alerted on Brocheer but not Champagne. For police, this was enough to corroborate their story. Are you with me? Yeah? I think so? Okay. Dive teams searched the lake where the Duffel bags had been thrown, stretching twenty one miles long and reaching depths up to seventy five feet. It was like searching for a needle in a haystack, especially after eighteen months had passed. But after two days divers found one of the bags inside was a chisel, Bart's cell phone, unspent nine millimeters hollow point bullets, and a half full water bottle. DNA from the bottle was linked to Christopher Burscher, the shooter. The chisel was marked with blue paint that matched Kevin's gun safe and it was enough to arrest all three men. After Champagne and Brochier were arrested and a ten thousand dollars reward was offered for information on Bart Whitaker's whereabouts, a man came forward.

45:02 His name was Rudy Rios. He and Bart had worked together at a restaurant and he knew that Bart was in trouble. For three thousand dollars, he offered to help him disappear. He drove Bart from Sugarland to his hometown, Solvo, Mexico, about six hours away. He gave him his driver's license, and Bart became Rudy. One thing I'm curious about is how did the police track down for Asher and Champagne, Like, what was the thing that tipped them off that these two guys were involved. That is a very good question. And I didn't talk about it, did I. I guess that they were just zeroing in on a lot of Bart's friends. Bart didn't have a ton of friends, but these two guys, like one of them had lived with him, and they kept bugging them about, you know, their relationship with Bart and they could just tell that something was there. Yeah, and they got a wire tab for their phones, expecting that they were going to talk, maybe that they would find Bart.

45:58 But they never found any conversations between them. But eventually they caved when you know, the police were kind of zeroing. In on them. They knew it. Since the murders, there had been tension between Kent and the Bartletts, his wife's family. They believed that Bart was guilty and should face the legal consequences of his actions. Tricia and Kevin deserved justice. Bart's disappearance deepened the divide within the family. Afraid of what he might still be capable of, they cut ties with him. Kent could not do that, however difficult the road a head might be. He was determined to stand beside his son, help him face the consequences, and somehow learn to forgive him.

46:38 Bart's attorney, Dan Cogdell, was close friends with Tricia's brother, who ran the family construction company, and had initially recommended him, But when it looked as if Bart was headed to trial, Tricia's family asked him to drop Bart as a client, and he did just weeks before the trial. The Bartletts had said to Dan, you're such a good attorney. We're afraid you're going to get off, get him off. Oh wow, so we don't want you involved. Wow, that's interesting. Prosecutor Fred Felchman offered Bart Whittaker a plea deal that would have spared him the possibility of the death penalty, but the offer was later withdrawn after they concluded he had not shown genuine remorse and appeared to be seeking a deal that benefited him without fully accepting responsibility for the crime. Kent addressed this in his book, saying, if only he had been able to talk directly with Bart, I believe mister Felchman would have seen the changes too.

47:31 But the only time they were ever in a room together was when they were standing before the judge in court. So this was kind of confusing to me. But Bart was supposed to write a letter to the court apologizing and saying, you know what he'd learned, and he wrote the letter, but one of the attorneys that was working for him wrote a letter that was more like a formal letter, more of like a lawyerly letter, and that was the one that was submitted to the court. Okay, and that's why the judge was like, well, this isn't much of it sounds but this again was in Kent's book, and kind of question it because it seems like something that you could, you know, change, like if you contact the court and was like, oh, this was, you know, a mistake. I can't imagine the judge saying, oh, yeah, I don't want Bart's.

48:15 I don't think. I don't think a lawyer would do that without permission from their client either. You know, well, I can see understand how it might have been like a paperwork mistake or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, just a strange story. When Bart went on trial for capital murder in late February two thousand and seven, he faced the death penalty, even though every member of his family, even those who had turned their backs on Bart, had asked prosecutors to seek life in prison instead. The trial moved quickly and the evidence was overwhelming. The defense didn't call a witness. They knew Bart would be found guilty. They were focused on the penalty phase and saving Bart from the death penalty. On March fifth, two thousand and seven, the jury deliberated for only two and a half hours before they reached a verdict. Of guilty, which was a surprise to no one.

49:02 Moving on to the penalty phase, Art chose to take the stand. I am one guilty for this. I put the plan in motion. If I had not done so, it would not have happened. Do you realize that you've robbed your mother of a full life? You're robbed chairman of a full life. You actually even robbed your father of a full life. So do you feel any remorse for this? Yes, yes, sir, I did. Who do you feel remorse for? Ed wooden Buld? Starting with my dad? I'm homing my brother Harry Womb I've ever met in my life, I felt so have been come in contact with me.

49:43 Can you answer the question why? No, sir, I've come up with a lot of the reasons for how I how I got to where I was going, but they do not explain it. I always felt that whatever love they sent me was conditional on on my standard be I just never felt I could peach. That last comment by him I find really interesting, Like he's it's almost like he's blaming his family, like their love was conditional and so that's why he did it. Yeah, that's a very good point in. Order to avoid the death penalty. Bart needed to prove that he was not a danger to anyone. Do you have any designs on any conduct that would, in any way, shape or form hurt another individual. No.

50:26 The only people I've ever hated, and I know that was not for the right reasons. But the only people I ever hated were my parents and my brother. Fact the ronad. But Alas, your dad is actually the one that's come to your rescue and put you back on trial. He's become a best friend. Last year, then Prosecutor Fred Feltschman had a chance at Bart. He was not a fan. If somebody interacts with Bart Whitaker, he could be on a totally innocent basis, and you decide to perceive it different. You could kill that person. No, I could not. You killed your mother and brother on totally fault. Circumstances, Sir, it was a different person. Then, see you, brother man, Yes I did. He was gurgling in his old blood. Yeah, you watch his whole tron.

51:11 You never cried till now. Why are you crying now for pulindury. You believe a person can't be sorry for the things they did. No, I think they can be mister wilcrew. But I don't think you are I think you're sorry. You get caught and now you're trying to figure out how to get out of death. Now. Wo yeah, harsh words. During deliberation of the penalty stage of the trial, it took the jury ten hours to come to a verdict. They sentenced him to death. They didn't believe that he was a changed man, and he remained a danger to society. Kent addressed the waiting media. Even though he was devastated, he felt a sense of relief wash over him that the trial was over. This is a sad day. It's a sad day for everyone.

51:54 From the very beginning, I've prayed that God would do whatever it took to reach my son. While this was not the verdict that we had hoped for, I still believe that the Lord is sovereign, and I believe that his will was done today. There will be no further statement by me, my family, or Tricia's. I respectfully ask that you grant us the courtesy of respecting our privacy. Chris Brasher was convicted of two counts of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole. In twenty thirty five, when he's fifty three years old. Stephen Champagne, for his cooperation, was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. He was paroled in twenty fifteen. Life on death row is lonely. There is nothing to look forward to. Bart wrote to Kent, I came here with my heart set on doing God's work, totally devoted.

52:42 I felt this is where he wanted me, and yet there are so few opportunities to do anything here. There's so little time to socialize and share the word. And honestly, most of these men already believe in God. Those who don't have very specific and detailed reasons for not believing. What do I say in two hours to guys who've never had a day of happiness in their whole lives until one day they blew up. While waiting on death row, Bart was interviewed by Lisa Ling for the Oprah Winfrey Show. He reflected on the feelings that had shaped his thinking at the time of the murders. I can go back and tell you why I felt so inadequate and why I felt that my parents didn't love me. There's a difference between an excuse and a reason and I don't try to make excuses for what I did. Barte believed his parents loved and idealized version of him, someone he felt he could never be. He thought that if they truly saw who he was, they wouldn't love him at all. Quote.

53:36 You can only go through that for so long before you start to bear a grudge against the people who you think have set that high standard. His relationship with his brother was complicated, riddled by envy. Kevin embodied the qualities that Bart struggled to possess, the qualities Bart believed his parents valued most. Quote, Kevin had so many qualities that I tried so hard for over the years. People just loved him always. I wanted my life to be different, and however my thought press has got there. I blamed them for me. I blamed them for being in existence. I wanted revenge for being alive. Kent says that choosing to forgive Bart ultimately became an important part of his own healing. Quote. The wonderful thing is if you do take that choice, and you do choose to forgive, changes come in you, and that's when you really are able to start healing. I can tell you I would never be where I am now. If I had not made that choice in the hospital that night, I'd hate to waste all that pain ending up on the other end after having gone through the grieving with still that bitterness of spirit. I wanted to get through that hard time and know that there's still life out there, and I'm excited about it. On February twenty second, twenty eighteen, Bart Whittaker, thirty eight, was served his final meal of chicken enchiladas, rice beans, and vegetables. He'd made peace with his impending death, scheduled for six PM. His father had visited him earlier and said that their final goodbyes. Bart waited in the holding cell, less than thirty feet from the death chamber where he'd die by lethal injection, hoping for a last

55:08 minute reprieve from the governor. But Greg Abbott towed a hard line, believing firmly in capital punishment and the ability of juries to make the right decision. He had never once intervened in an execution, which made it even more shocking when at three point fifty one pm a call came in announcing that Abbot had commuted Bart's death sentence, the only time the governor had done so since taking office in twenty fifteen. Sixty inmates had been executed during his tenure. In making his decision, Abbot cited Kent Whittaker's passionate plea that he would be a double victim if Bart was put to death, and the unanimous vote by the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles to commute Bart's sentence, the first time they'd done so since two thousand and seven.

55:53 Upon his reprieve, Bart said, I'm thankful for this decision, not for me, but for my dad. Whatever punishment i'm I have received or will received, will be just. I deserve any punishment for my crimes, but my dad did nothing wrong. Bart is described by prison staff and fellow inmates as a rehabilitated man who is a calming presence in the prison and a role model. So for me, the question still lingers why a privileged kid would do what Bart did. A letter written to his father has a few clues. I have been reading the Bible a lot, and it's made me think about my faith. I know I haven't lived at the way I should. I can talk about God, but the way I live is far from it. The Bible says God is love, but I don't think I really understand what that means. I've said I loved people, my fiance, mom, Kevin, but I don't know if I ever understood what love actually is. I felt things like respect, even relief, but also anger and confusion.

56:47 The truth is, I don't think I've ever really understood my own emotions. Most of my life I felt like I was pretending, trying to be what I thought I was supposed to be, not to deceive, but just to become something anything. I felt empty, like a reflection of what a person should be, but not the real thing. I wish I have lived differently. I wish I had made you proud. I'm sorry for the lives I've destroyed and for the fact that there's nothing I can do to undo it. More than anything, I don't have a real explanation for any of this. I've always felt confused, like there was something missing me that I could never fix. I think in some way I wanted revenge for being born. What do you think of his statement?

57:27 I mean, I don't. I don't know what to make of it. I think the question of why is still it's a baffling one to me. If you were Kent, I would be like, I need better answers. Yeah, I need something to Yeah, it's just very easy. So there's a lot of eyes in that letter in statement, and I don't think he has truly reflected on the pain that he caused to so many other thing. That's a good point. Yeah, I don't hear any of that in that letter. The prosecution portrayed Bart as a spoiled, privileged, suburban kid, but mental health experts describe someone struggling with delusional thinking that had developed since high school. Bart felt disconnected from his own identity, even questioning his name, and placed within his family. As his behavior escalated, culminating in the school burglaries, his parents placed him in a stricter religious program, a move some experts later said may have worsened his condition instead of addressing it through therapy or medication. A trial, he was labeled a narcissistic sociopath, but clinical psychologists who evaluated him said he did not meet that criteria. Instead, they saw a young man struggling with isolation and untreated mental illness, issues that went largely unaddressed until it was too late. Bart later said he never felt fully accepted, even coming to resent his own name. He believed that Bart tied him to his mother's family, people his father disliked.

58:50 He also recalled as a child that whenever he displayed a trait that his father might deem as feminine, it upset him, and his father tried to suppress his behaviors. Kevin Whittaker loved sports, the outdoors, and his faith, and he loved to make people laugh. Tricia Whittaker was a devoted wife and mother. Her family and faith were the most important things in her life. Rest in peace, Kevin and Tricia. In two thousand and nine, Kent remarried. He and his wife, Tanya now travel the country as motivational speakers focusing on the power of forgiveness. And the years that followed the tragedy, Kent Whittaker became known for forgiving his son, a decision rooted in his faith. For him, it wasn't optional, but forgiveness in a case like this is complicated. It may being bring peace to the person offering it, but it can also shift the focus of the story. Tricia and Kevin can't speak for themselves. What remains is the voice of the person who survived Kent's forgiveness raises difficult questions. What happens when forgiveness becomes the center of the narrative and would the victims have felt the same? Where is the justice for them? Art, now forty six, resides in the Polunsky Unit in Livingston, Texas, where he will likely live out the rest of his days.

1:00:02 He has earned two degrees while in prison, an undergraduate degree in English and a master's in humanities. He facilitates a website Minutes before six, where he and other inmates share their writing and art. You can find him on Instagram. I'm good, thanks. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this case. Yeah. First, some of them are just statements. It must be so shocking to have the person that you loved and raised try to kill you multiple times. Yeah, And like. I said, some people said that after Kevin and Trisha were gone that Bart still had thoughts in instead of killing his visity. Yeah, yeah, it really is just, yeah, really shocking.

1:00:43 A lot of people say that Ken's forgiveness was remarkable and laud him for this, including Oprah. What do you think? It's a really tough question for me to answer. I understand the need to in order to move on with your life, to be able to forgive, and I know that's a really important part of a lot of people's faith. I don't know how I would deal with that situation. Hopefully I never will have to. Would I would have a hard time for giving someone who took you know, the people that were that close to. I feel like, unless you have experienced a violent crime like this, you don't really know how you would react. And I think it's fine that Kent chows forgiveness, but you know, people tend to hold him put him on a past he was able to forgive. I also think it's okay if you can't forgive or you don't want to forgive, right, Yeah, because you only have one shot at life, and if someone is selfish enough to take that life like that is an unforgivable act. Yeah, in my opinion, Yeah.

1:01:42 I agree with you. I do think you kind of mentioned it, like the forgiveness has become like the focus of the story, and in a lot of Bart, a lot of the things you read from Bart, like no one Bart or Kent seem to be talking about the victims. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that Kent has said that that was not covered in the episode, but it does seem like the focus is more on Bart and on forgiveness. I just read the rest and Peace segment to you, and it was brief because I read this two hundred and fifty page book written by Kent, and I really don't have a sense who Tricia or Kevin are really. I mean, it sounds like they were nice, godly people, but there's more to them than that, and he really didn't talk about them a whole lot in the aspect of getting to know them, and the book is dedicated to them. But I think I feel like I'm making I'm picking on Kent, because I do think he's probably a good person and he was trying his best, but it just struck me that.

1:02:36 It does feel like they've gotten forgotten a little bit. Would Kent have forgiven a stranger? I mean, I think a person of faith that their faith was that important to them. I would think that they would find that important as well, But again, I don't know. I think that. Well, he said that night of the shooting, you know, I said I was going to forgive whoever did this. Would Tricia and Kevin have forgiven Bart? Sound like religion. Their faith was also very important to them. And again I think that, you know, I think that forgiveness is a really important part, so, you know, perhaps hard to say. Of course, Bart claimed to some people that he had told his mom. I'm not sure if it was the night that they went to dinner, but he had told her, I'm not graduating from college. I've got some problems, blah blah blah. But no one can corroborate that. Of course, do you think that Bart is reformed? Did he take off the mask or did he just get better at manipulating his father.

1:03:29 I am a skeptic of this whole thing, going back to when he was caught in Mexico. You know, he's basically trying to tell the story that he was a change man. But he didn't turn himself in. He had to be caught, So I don't believe that he was like on the verge of turning himself in. I think through the trial he was trying to avoid the death penalty. That was his main goal. In the clips that we played, at least I didn't. You know, again, he didn't talk about the victims. It's about him, So I don't know. I feel like in prison. It sounds like everyone thinks he is a good, a positive influence on the other prisoners, and that may be the case, but I think that's maybe more that he's just accepted that that's where he is going to be and he's trying to make the best of it. So I don't know, I'm very skeptical.

1:04:12 Yeah, I'm going to pick on Kent a little more. He said some really tone deaf things in his book. He said that Bart made some dangerous friends that he cultivated away from home. Well, Kent, they didn't kill their parents, like your kid is the danger. He was the bad influence. He said that he got most things that he asked for, and he couldn't believe that Bart hated them because he got everything he asked for. Yeah, that is pretty tone deaf. That's really not what. We never gave him a reason to hate us, Does it mean that? Yeah? Yeah, Now I'm going to pick on Bart a little bit. When he called nine to one one, the operator asked if the murderer had been white, black, or hispanic, and Bart responded, I think black, which really bothered me because he knew the murderer was white, and it felt like, you know, that's just.

1:05:01 Yeah, it's trying to point the finger at somebody of color, and yeah, just knowing that that would be, you know, become the narrative. Yeah, and I talked about the final picture that they'd taken in front of the fireplace. In the picture, and I'm pretty sure that he did this surreptitiously. He's flipping off. Bart is flipping off the camera. Yeah, but it was like the show. I'll post a picture of it, but you know, he was doing it like this, and I just thought that's disgusting. First of all, your parents just gave you a Rolex watch. They've given you. Not that parenting is about giving your kids things, because it's not. But it was just so disturbing that he knew that he had set up this murder. They were going to die within a couple of hours, and he's flipping off the camera. Yeah. I also wanted to mention that what's going on in Texas with your young men? And like, there were six I was going five or six people that Bart was able to convince to kill his.

1:05:56 Family multiple plots, right, and yeah, they all like at least to a certain point where they had talked about it. It was pretty serious. Yeah, that's really shocking. Yeah, very disturbing. I think most of the kids were kind of like Bart, like they came from affluent families. And yeah, I'm curious what Bart's life is like in prison, especially on death row, because his life is so he's growing, the way he grew up was so different than most people on death row, and I would think that they would be like, who is this punk kid who had everything handed to him his whole life? Right, Yeah, it's got to be and he's the. One whom his sentence was commuted. One thing I wanted to touch on before we close is the fact that Greg Abbot commuted his death sentence and that was the first time he.

1:06:44 Had done that and he has not done it since. Yeah, I remember that Greg Abbott was very pro death penalty. I'm really curious kind of the reasoning behind him. I mean, you talked about it a little bit, but it just seems odd to me that this was the one person he chose to. Comput because he was a privileged white kid. Well I do sort of a kid, yeah, but yeah, I do. I do sort of feel like that it probably was partly it could have been to do with that. It also may have been the religious aspect of it, that they were claiming that he was a changed man and all this, but it just it it bothers me. I am not I know there everyone has different opinions on the death penalty, and I think all all opinions are valid. I personally am opposed to it. But it bothers me that there was a different, a different justice for Bart than there is for all these other people who are on death row.

1:07:34 Right, people commit crimes for a lot of reason, but this this was just a crime. Yeah, we're not even sure why. I know people say it was for the inheritance. But parents bought him this Yukon, which is not a cheap vehicle, right, they bought him I mean I don't. Well, he was living in the Lakehouse, which was a very nice house. Yeah, but then he was living I couldn't find the house that he lived at, can't describe it as a smaller house. But still, and they weren't I think they had money, but they weren't like stripping in money. I think that they just gave their kids a lot, maybe things that they necessarily Oh the other thing that I almost forgot to mention that remember when Bart went to Mexico and he had ten thousand dollars that he stole from his dad. Kent in his book didn't talk about it until later. He talked about it like at the trial because it was brought up again. He had told Bart, well, it was after for y two K when everyone was like, oh, you need money, We don't.

1:08:33 I think we're the only people and it sounds like we're the only people that don't have a safe full of money. But he had money like that had been in his safe since y two K. And he mentioned it to Bart and he said he did it intentionally. He wasn't saying you should leave, but he was like, hey, I've got this money, so he thought it was Yeah, he said it was ten thousand, which I'm like, it could have been more. We don't really know. Well, that is the horrible story of the Whitaker family. Horrible and really interesting. All right, before we go, I have to ask your opinion on something. You travel a fair bit. You haven't been on too many trips in twenty twenty six. Yeah, but how do you think that people should dress on airplanes comfortably?

1:09:16 I think whatever makes you comfortable. I find whatever makes you comfortable. No, okay, not whatever makes you comfortable whatever to see where this is going. You want to, you know, you want to dress appropriately and tastefully. You don't want to have your feet, your bare feet sticking out. I don't know if that's where this is going, you know, but you want to. But you want to be comfortable because airplanes can be hot or cold, so you want to be you know, prepared for whatever it might be. Like, what about kids? Do you think anything should go for kids? I know, you should just tell me where you're going with this. Because well, I just recently read that an airline has prohibited people from wearing pajamas crocs on airplanes. I feel like crocs is that's kind of ridiculous, because that's like the I don't I don't really wear cracks and I wouldn't wear them on a flight. But I mean that's a great shoot.

1:10:06 I think that would be pretty comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. And pajamas, I feel like, I mean. As long as they're you know, just a lot of pajamas are a lot of pajamas are just like pants, like sweatpants almost. I just feel like I can't understand why an airline would really care I can't either. Like wearing socks and not having smelly feet, I think is really important. But other than that, I feel like anything should go. Travel is everybody is crazy in the world of travel. I just read the other day that an airline they kicked there was a deaf woman on the airplane and they kicked her off the plane because she wasn't listening to their instructions.

1:10:47 I never listened to that instruction. But she's deaf. She's deaf. She can't listen to your instructions, and I didn't. I shouldn't even talk about it because I don't know the details, but I just read a little bit about that. I'm like that, what what's going on? I don't know. Well, you had a role of not wearing shorts, just a personal role for you, like you didn't want to travel if you were wearing shorts. I think you've broken that a couple of years going. Yeah, but I do feel I don't know why, but I feel a little weird wearing shorts on airplanes. Part you're going to be hot or cold, that's part of it. And part of it is like your the back of your legs stick on the seat and the seats are a little gross made potentially, you know, but yeah, I usually I usually just go with jeans and a T shirt or sweatshirt. I think I usually wear leggings and a hoodie or something like that, you know, yeah, comfort, which I would wear those things to beds, so.

1:11:34 I don't know they are your pajamas. One more thing before we go, I was clicking around Netflix looking for a show to watch and I found a show. I think it's from a few years ago. It's called Soulmates, and it's very black mirrorish. I think there are five or six episodes, and I've watched two and a half of them so far. But the gist of it is you can take a test and this test will show you you have one soulmate, and if you take the test, you'll find out who. You'll find out who your soulmate is. Weird because there is a black Mirror episode that is very similar in theme as I recall, but. I'm not sure if it was from AMC or where this show is from originally. But yeah, it's a very It's an interesting idea, and so I oppose that question to you. Am I your soulmate?

1:12:20 Of course? But truly though, if there was a test that you could take and find your soulmate even though we've been married for six hundred and ninety two years. Now, would would you take the test? If you want to take it? Saying now, yeah, no, I'm not going to take it now. So the first episode of this, I don't want to give too much away, but that's what Like, this couple has been married. There seemed like a great couple. They're really happy, and she, well, what happens is a lot of people in their lives start taking the test. Like her brother takes the test. Okay, he seems super happy with his new wife, and then you know, her friends everyone's talking about the test, and she's like, should stop talking about the test, I'm happily married. And then she just keeps thinking about. It and she ends up taking it.

1:13:01 I mean, I'm not going to talk about it, but yeah, you wouldn't take the test? No, I'm in it. I'm committed. Now, well you committed. I think I would be super duper curious. I don't know if I would take the test, because I mean the just like you would end your marriage, because. That is, you would take the test. I'm super duper curious. I don't really believe in soulmates. I feel like people comment a lot on our relationship and they say, you guys are such a great couple, and you know, you seem to love each other a lot, and those things are true. But I think a lot of that is because we're both pretty nice people and we like each other. And I noticed that you commented on somebody's comment that we like each other ninety eight point of the time.

1:13:44 What I said, it's a little surprised you think that's high. Well, that's too like we're doing a podcast where I mean, we fight on the air, and I do like purposely snipe at you sometimes just to be funny. But who we do get along really well for the most part. But yeah, the sac thing on the floor in the. Bedroom, though, I don't know I'm going to work on that. Well, you've wasted another hour and fifteen minutes or whatever long this episode is listening to us. Do you know who? That's a shout out to Car Talk the Card Talk Guys. That was one of the first radio shows I ever listened to, and it was the best. I didn't wasn't into cars, but I love the Card Talk Guys so much. Well, if people haven't listened to it too. Also, our don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife is also a shout out to car Talk, because at the end of every episode they would say, don't drive like my brother, don't drive like my bro.

1:14:32 Oh my gosh, yeah, oh so much to the car Talk guys. The car Talk it was, Yeah, they're they're fabulous fellas. I always wanted them to be like my dad. Do you want to thank our chauffeur pick up and drop off? I loved how they always did that too. I've thought about coming up with like a list like that sometime to close our show. But she we did them. Wait, all right, Well, thank you so much sincerely for hanging out with us and listening. You are all the best and we appreciate all your support and friendship. Find us on social media including TikTok and YouTube. Send us an email at lovemarykillat gmail dot com. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, engage with us on social media, and what else do we have?

1:15:18 I would just give some advice. Don't kill your word, don't name your kid anything that rhymes with fart that is really sound. It's till next time. Don't kill your wife, and don't cure your husband.

1:16:01 To a bank To